Venue Crowd Capacity

[Jon L]

Last night at the place in London W5, it got very busy. Now I gather in recent weeks, this has been commonplace (although it was the first time I had been there on a Friday).

I am not keen to dance when it's like that, because you have to watch everyone else closely and your partner and being shorter than average in height ,I get struck on shoulders etc. by big men. Mind you I also reversed into someone because it was so crowded. I later heard that they at one stage closed the venue.

So this brings into question how many dancers can you get in every few square metres without being squashed in?

Also do you think with certain big freestyle nights, having "all ticket" evenings are preferable? There are a couple of venues like that in the South where you are encouraged to pre book and you get a pound off if you do so???

P.S. We had one silly person in there who decided they would do air steps on a crowded dance floor

[Lounge Lizard]

Ok Jon, I will put my anorak on for this

The floor at Camber upstairs = 380m2 existing +677m2 I provide
In the downstairs venue = 40m2 existing * 300m2 I provide
Total floor area in November was 1397m2 - with 1500 dancers at the event with both halls busy at peak times\ I would say a venue needs about 1m2 per dancer (10% are bound to sit out, be at the bar etc).
Camber IMO was not overcrowded but very busy and big moves [not air steps] were restricted.

I would be interested to know from other organisers what floor size per head would you allow - Franck Gus etc
Peter

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Ok Jon, I will put my anorak on for this

The floor at Camber upstairs = 380m2 existing +677m2 I provide
In the downstairs venue = 40m2 existing * 300m2 I provide
Total floor area in November was 1397m2 - with 1500 dancers at the event with both halls busy at peak times\ I would say a venue needs about 1m2 per dancer (10% are bound to sit out, be at the bar etc).
Camber IMO was not overcrowded but very busy and big moves [not air steps] were restricted.

I would be interested to know from other organisers what floor size per head would you allow - Franck Gus etc
Peter

You are right Mr. L Camber was not at anytime dangerously crowded, we were approaching times last night were there was less than that between the dancers :)

[Starlight Dancer]

In some cases, at the most popular events, it may have to come down to tickets in the end unless more venues open or the venues become bigger. The main thing is that tickets should be accessible to all.

I think the worst thing on a crowded night is when bystanders are taking up floor space chatting away and getting in the way of the dancers. Sometimes there may not be enough seats in the table area, but a little more consideration for the dancers on crowded nights would be nice from those few who haven't quite got the understanding of dance floor etiquette.

I was at a class the other night and I happened to be on the end of the row, nearest the seating. Needless to say, there was a couple chatting away on the dance floor, at the side, preventing me from executing the moves as I could not step back without colliding with them. And they still went on chatting.

I'd be interested to know if the attendance figures are increasing in MJ, or whether the crowded venues of late are due to the festive season? Or a combination of both?

[Gus]

Originally posted by starlightdancer
In some cases, at the most popular events, it may have to come down to tickets in the end unless more venues open or the venues become bigger. The main thing is that tickets should be accessible to all.


From an organisers point of view, deciding to make an event a ticket only event is a brave step. Numbers at Northwich have varied from 120 to 240 ... with little rhyme or reason for the fluctuation. I'm under the impression, subject to being validated by fact:what: , that a fair proportion make their mind up on the night.

Re dance space, our dancefloor is about 180m2. On our bigger nights I've counted around 160 on the floor itself .... and that is still just about danceable although in a few areas it was too tight. The point is .. if I get to 250 through the door one night ... do I close the venue and turn anyone else turning up away? Even giving someone a free pas to the next event is little comfort if they've driven a fair distance.

I know from experience most venue operators would simply pack them in. If we tried to pack people in as they do in London there would be a serious backlash by our dancers ... and rightly so. You can't take money off people at the front door but not allow them room to dance ..... or am I wrong:confused:

Re getting a bigger venue .... good luck. There are only three venues in Cheshire/N West the size of Northwich ... there are a few more to the SE and E of Manchester (e.g. Stockport) but these are hideously expensive. Finding a venue with a event sized dancefloor, reasonable parking and in a safe(ish) area is a major battle ... and most of the time VERY expensive. Northwich is about twice the size of my old venue, but I pay five times as much:tears:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Jon L
P.S. We had one silly person in there who decided they would do air steps on a crowded dance floor

There were infact two couples doing the above, the results of one of the above was to spoilt the closing move on the last dance of the night with the Prawnster; I was very disappointed :tears:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Pammy
There were infact two couples doing the above, the results of one of the above was to spoilt the closing move on the last dance of the night with the Prawnster; I was very disappointed :tears:
I wish drops ended up with the blokes' heads near the floor :devil:

Chris

PS Time to update your sig, Pamster :D

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I wish drops ended up with the blokes' heads near the floor :devil: I do one of those :D

Steve

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I do one of those :D
But I'm guessing not in circumstances where I'd want to kick it :waycool:

Chris

[Geordieed]

Well before I left the Friday night in question I asked the person in charge of the venue if next time we could all benefit from having a nearby dancefloor opened up to take the overflow. Alot of people had been requesting the same thing and it should be in place for next event. Actually I think I will go back and ask if it could be used as a Blues room. Cool music for people who like a challenge, then mainstream stuff for the masses.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by ChrisA
PS Time to update your sig, Pamster :D

Done o master :hug:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Geordieed
and it should be in place for next event.
Didn't he say something like "only if it continues to be as busy as this"??

Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Pammy
o master :hug:
I couldn't fill Greg's shoes :wink:

[Pammy]

But, as I remember it, Greg fills Andy's shoes; with coca cola! :rofl:

Px

[Geordieed]

Yeh Chris but can you see it getting seriously empty. I know that numbers steadily increased because of the time of year but have faith Mr A. We just have to work away at the idea over this week and the weekend. At this moment in time I can't see numbers being hugely different next time plus if it is made known that extra space will be made available then who knows.

The popularity of the Friday is working in its' favour at the moment. We all go even though we can guess that it's going to be busy but we go because we are looking for a place on a Friday.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Geordieed
have faith Mr A.
I'll do my best !!

I can see opening another room (which I totally support, incidentally) causing an M25 effect. Still, it'd be Ok for another couple of months.

In the long term, it can only be a good thing, though, to put pressure on venues - since there'll be a tendency for more to open up.

All we need to do is clone the likes of JB, LL, Roger, Sheepster et al. I vote they start a DJ training course :D

I vote for Greg as DJ for the blues room BTW. With all his WCS DJ expertise, he's the perfect choice, and that role would kill two birds with one stone :devil:

Chris

[Geordieed]

Watch out though. Only problem is a venue paying for more than one DJ per night. That might prove a difficult one to sort out.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Geordieed
Watch out though. Only problem is a venue paying for more than one DJ per night. That might prove a difficult one to sort out.
Sure.

But £7 x 300 is £2100. (ISTR there were 300 at NYE Ealing 2002/3 - so about the same as 2/1/04 at a guess).

How much is the hall/DJ hire?

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I vote for Greg as DJ for the blues room BTW. With all his WCS DJ expertise, he's the perfect choice, and that role would kill two birds with one stone :devil:

Well I don't know whether to :D or :tears: at that! I think :D :D for the vote of confidence for my DJing!

Now I'd love to do a blues West/Coast set downstairs, but Friday's I'm already DJing at Bisley, so couldn't get there till midnight, just about the time the crowds thin out a little, and JB plays upstairs lots of the stuff I'd be playing anyway.

I haven't made the previous 2 Friday freestyles (except for the last hour), last Friday may have been exceptional, as nothing else nearby was on. I suspect the next one won't be quite so busy, but it would be good to have that extra space. I do know the normal hire costs at Ealing are extortionate - I enquired recently about hiring it, so it isn't a decision to be taken lightly.

Now brainstorming - how about the blues room opening downstairs at 11, and going through till 3 or 4 in the morning. Probably wouldn't work, there'd HAVE to be an extra charge for that.

Greg

[Geordieed]

I have never run a venue so can't answer that one. Most venues will complain about tight profit margins. But I am not a venue ring master so from a dancers perspective just want more room great music and a room full of people enjoying themselves and some women I enjoy dancing with on a regular basis.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I wish drops ended up with the blokes' heads near the floor :devil:


I think you'll find that followers heads end up near the floor in drops no matter what sex they are:devil:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think you'll find that followers heads end up near the floor in drops no matter what sex they are:devil:
Sure. But if the girls were leading they wouldn't be so stupid as to stick the guys' heads down there.

If it's two guys in a packed hall, they're probably both daft enough to do it, so the floor level head is fair game anyway :devil: :devil: :devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
If it's two guys in a packed hall, they're probably both daft enough to do it, so the floor level head is fair game anyway :devil: :devil: :devil:

I did dance with a couple of guys on "Crowded Friday" at Hipsters. I danced with JonL early before the crowds arrived and I danced with Rob Jeffries when it was really busy. When I was dancing with Rob people seemed to keep out of our way:devil:

..for some of the moves even I wanted to keep out of our way:sorry

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think you'll find that followers heads end up near the floor in drops no matter what sex they are:devil:
Fair's fair: I have actually seen the Tramp leading and have his head end up about floor level... never been close enough to kick it though :innocent:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gadget
Fair's fair: I have actually seen the Tramp leading and have his head end up about floor level... never been close enough to kick it though :innocent: Ah. But those of you at Blackpool last year will remember that even on an uncrowded dance floor, you can still get kicked. Although not always in the head. :what:

And not usually by one of the people that you're dancing with :tears:

Steve

[Divissima]

Trampy, how could we ever forget?? :rofl: :rofl: :hug:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ah. But those of you at Blackpool last year will remember that even on an uncrowded dance floor, you can still get kicked. Although not always in the head. :what:

And not usually by one of the people that you're dancing with :tears:

Steve

The Tramp took a lot of persuading about this particular move but he couldn't argue with the final decision about who to kick as it was based entirely on the claimed size of target area:devil:

Andy

p.s. Neither Rob nor I wanted to investigate his claim or have to prove him wrong:sick: :wink:

[JamesGeary]

.

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Now brainstorming - how about the blues room opening downstairs at 11, and going through till 3 or 4 in the morning. Probably wouldn't work, there'd HAVE to be an extra charge for that.

Greg
if it was going on till 3 or 4am then just keep main hall open later and change music style.

I think a regular Camber style blues room once a month in london (and elsewhere) would work, I thought about co-organising a dance called the London Lounge & Brighton Lounge (or simmilar if names are already being used) but could not get interest from other organisers - That's where name 'Lounge Lizard' came from
It would need the right size venue with good atmosphere - any ideas?
peter

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
if it was going on till 3 or 4am then just keep main hall open later and change music style.

I think a regular Camber style blues room once a month in london (and elsewhere) would work, I thought about co-organising a dance called the London Lounge & Brighton Lounge (or simmilar if names are already being used) but could not get interest from other organisers - That's where name 'Lounge Lizard' came from
It would need the right size venue with good atmosphere - any ideas?
peter

Peter from what you were telling me the other night. How about trying that in the HG Wells in Woking one Saturday night??

That venue has good parking and air conditioning and is also in easy reach of your established venues at Dorking and Fleet. Plus also those travelling out of London it's not too far either, and also get Simon, Colin and Katy to promote you.

Going to Brighton from what you were telling me the other night might not be a wise decision

Jon

[Bill]

Originally posted by Jon L

P.S. We had one silly person in there who decided they would do air steps on a crowded dance floor


A real pet hate and I think this might actually becoming worse. At a few recent events I've noticed a lot of men taking up more and more room or throwing women into spaces that don't exist !! :devil:

We have some enthusiastic men who often seem completely unaware of who is around them and I'm getting to the stage where I feel like keeping my elbows or legs sticking out so they get the message. I was even blamed for being in the way recently even though I was standing still at the time waiting for my partner to finish a return !

Think it's time for Lorna and Lisa to ask the men to be careful on the dance floor and be more aware of the space around them.

[Gus]

Although now on a tangent , I would echo Jayne on the 'bit' crowded for freestyle comment. I couldn't beleives that some guys were putting women into drops and doing aerials when there was hardly any room even for some bluesy moves :sick: :angry:

At one point some poor woman's head ( well the rest of her as well I suppose!) was suddenly dropped inches away from a melee of legs and feet. I'm surprised there weren't pools of blood by the end of the evening.
Thought it was time to resurrect this thread as Xmas approaches and previously half empty venues now start packing them in, the question over available dance space rears its ugly head again.

Anyone want to put forward the defintive room per dancer ratio? Its not an easy calculation. You have to take into acount the available sitting area, the amount of people sat down v those actualy on the dance floor.

For Nortwhich, I seem to remember the dancefloor itself (not including seating area) is about 3100 sq ft ... this gives us a venue capacity of about 240 (based on experience, though we have had 280). So that calculates out at roughly 13 sq ft per person. I recently got my paws on the dimensions of the biggest venue in the region, weighing in with a dance floor area of about 4000 sq ft :grin: HOWEVER ... this capacity is 450 ... giving 9 sq ft per person. That seems a bit tight ... but I bet there are venues that are far worse than that. What is an acceptable sq footage?

[Lynn]

I went to a salsa venue on Fri night and was quite frankly horrified at the number of people up dancing. I know salsa maybe packs people in more than MJ but it was pretty dangerous. I got up for a few dances, spent 80% of my attention on making sure I didn't bump into people, and was stood on then elbowed in the back - and neither person looked round or apologised. :mad: I wasn't dancing anymore after that! But what I was shocked by was the fact that this regular evening is run by a well known local salsa teacher. IMO its irresponsible to be running a regular evening that is so packed without teaching floorcraft or giving some guidance to regular dancers. I think maybe not enough people take this seriously. :(

[Gojive]

Thought it was time to resurrect this thread as Xmas approaches and previously half empty venues now start packing them in, the question over available dance space rears its ugly head again.

Anyone want to put forward the defintive room per dancer ratio? Its not an easy calculation. You have to take into acount the available sitting area, the amount of people sat down v those actualy on the dance floor.

For Nortwhich, I seem to remember the dancefloor itself (not including seating area) is about 3100 sq ft ... this gives us a venue capacity of about 240 (based on experience, though we have had 280). So that calculates out at roughly 13 sq ft per person. I recently got my paws on the dimensions of the biggest venue in the region, weighing in with a dance floor area of about 4000 sq ft :grin: HOWEVER ... this capacity is 450 ... giving 9 sq ft per person. That seems a bit tight ... but I bet there are venues that are far worse than that. What is an acceptable sq footage?

I think you need to factor in what likely percentage of dancers sit out at any given moment. The figures you've given Gus, assume all the dancers will be on the floor at the same time :)

[MartinHarper]

It would help if teachers spent time teaching how to dance well on cramped dance floors. Incidentally, repeatedly saying "be careful" does not count as teaching.

[Gus]

I think you need to factor in what likely percentage of dancers sit out at any given moment. The figures you've given Gus, assume all the dancers will be on the floor at the same time :)Not exactly .. I'm using a constant factor as a comparsion across venues. I'm not saying that each person has 13 sq ft, just that if you compare Northwich v Venue B, Northwich has 44% more room. Does that make some kind of sense?

[Gus]

It would help if teachers spent time teaching how to dance well on cramped dance floors. Incidentally, repeatedly saying "be careful" does not count as teaching.Been covered on another thread somewhere. Bottom line is that you can tell punters all you like, once the adrenalin and the music kick in they just revert to type :angry:

[Minnie M]

It would help if teachers spent time teaching how to dance well on cramped dance floors. Incidentally, repeatedly saying "be careful" does not count as teaching.

:yeah: (woops I'm agreeing with Martin)

Great idea :clap: does anyone teach it now other than on the Swing scene

Ryan Francois teaches floorcraft, at some of the dance weekenders, he gets the dancers dancing very close together without hitting or kicking the person next to you

Ballroom dancers are taught to watch the floor too

[Gojive]

Not exactly .. I'm using a constant factor as a comparsion across venues. I'm not saying that each person has 13 sq ft, just that if you compare Northwich v Venue B, Northwich has 44% more room. Does that make some kind of sense?

Yes it does, and my apologies for not reading your post properly - you did actually mention "Sitting out v Dancing" :blush: :flower:

[MartinHarper]

Sorry Minnie - I'm sure I'll say something stupid soon enough, so that normal service can be resumed. :)


Been covered on another thread somewhere. Bottom line is that you can tell punters all you like, once the adrenalin and the music kick in they just revert to type :angry:

I think there's a big difference between "telling" and "teaching". I absolutely agree that simply lecturing punters isn't terribly productive, which is why I feel that actual teaching is important. Dancers don't want to collide into each other - it hurts. Rather, we collide into each other because we don't know any better, and we don't know any better because we haven't been taught any better.

[Lynn]

...I know salsa maybe packs people in more than MJ but it was pretty dangerous.. Didn't see this on Fri night but heard that one dancer in Belfast makes sure he has room to dance by literally pushing nearby dancers out of the way with his hand before he makes his move! :what: Great for him and his partner but how rude is that to the other dancers? :angry: