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View Full Version : Ceroc - Business Enterprise or "Gift to the World"?



Gus
28th-December-2003, 01:12 PM
An attempt at a positive thread:D

Ceroc (Inc) has come in for a fair bit of critisism lately, mostly on the grounds of unfounded speculation (yup ... guilty as charged) so as ODA I thought it was only right to try to redress the balance.

The view I'm coming from is that there is a thread of evangelicisim re Ceroc based on the 'life changing' experience it has been for some people. I'm NOT knocking that. Like many otheres, Ceroc has had a big impact on my life in terms of expanded social scene and confidence. However, I think that sometimes it is forgotten that Ceroc is not, and never can be, a charity. As such it needs to make a buck. Maybe the debate should focus on the balance between the good that can be done and the commercial needs.

Despite all the previous debate, I dont think that there has been any hard evidence that the new Ceroc has lessened its worth to society. All the rumours re anti-competitive behaviour seem to be unfounded so ...... has Ceroc finally go it right?

Nick M
28th-December-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Gus
The view I'm coming from is that there is a thread of evangelicisim re Ceroc based on the 'life changing' experience it has been for some people.

Given that similar life-changing experiences come through LeRoc, Gingerjive, and any of the other independents, maybe it is Modern Jive that is worthy of evangelism, rather than Ceroc per se?

Nick

bigdjiver
28th-December-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Nick M
Given that similar life-changing experiences come through LeRoc, Gingerjive, and any of the other independents, maybe it is Modern Jive that is worthy of evangelism, rather than Ceroc per se?

Nick

or Lindy? Salsa? - Dance in general? anywhere where people meet for a good purpose?

The original post posed the question:

has Ceroc finally go it right?

My answer is no - and it never will, because the circumstances will always be changing.

Is it on the right road? I think so, and this forum is part of that success, eyes, ears and sometimes mouth.

Gus
28th-December-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Nick M
Given that similar life-changing experiences come through LeRoc, Gingerjive, and any of the other independents, maybe it is Modern Jive that is worthy of evangelism, rather than Ceroc per se?

Nick

With respect to the (many) other organisations ... Ceroc is the main players both in terms of numbers, teachers and organisation. I hgavn't seen any other organisation with a plan to expand or have the reources that Ceroc has. I would say (and I may be wrong) that where Ceroc leads , others will follow.

Andy McGregor
28th-December-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Despite all the previous debate, I dont think that there has been any hard evidence that the new Ceroc has lessened its worth to society. All the rumours re anti-competitive behaviour seem to be unfounded so ...... has Ceroc finally go it right?

The 'New Ceroc'?:confused:

Did I miss something? Is there a 'new' version of Ceroc out there? The only change I've noticed it that the ownership has changed, a new franchisee has opened in Fleet who's going to be doing an advanced lesson once a month - just like he always has done.

I've not seen any change in the product or the way it's delivered. I've been onto the website and they are now recommending something called 'Single Minded' but I don't think it's a Ceroc product.

So, in my opinion, Ceroc has not changed. That it will change I have no doubt. And when the time comes for that change to be announced I'm sure we'll all hear about it and debate the legs off it here.

But I agree with Gus about the worth of Ceroc. If performs a useful function and we love it. But it is a business, just like a pub or nightclub or anything else in the entertainment world.

RobC
29th-December-2003, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Gus
With respect to the (many) other organisations ... Ceroc is the main players both in terms of numbers, teachers and organisation.
So big is better ? Surely it's not size that matters, but what you do with it ? :devil:


I would say (and I may be wrong) that where Ceroc leads , others will follow.
So you're saying that Ceroc venues have never 'borrowed' ideas from other dance organisations ? Who first ran a weekend dance event ? Who ran the first Modern Jive competition ? Who ran the first repeat beginners class during the intermediate class to give new dancers more individual attention and a second chance to learn the beginners routine ? And how about an improvers class as well, so that people have the choice of repeating the beginners class, learning the intermediate routine, or choosing to join the improvers group with a not-quite-so-challenging routine.

:cheers: :cheers:

Rob

Andy McGregor
29th-December-2003, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by RobC
So you're saying that Ceroc venues have never 'borrowed' ideas from other dance organisations ? Who first

-snip-



Having read this Forum, a casual observer would probably note that the 'first' to do just about everything was Lounge Lizard:devil:

Stuart M
29th-December-2003, 10:37 AM
To go back to Gus' point about evangelism, my perception as someone who just dances is that Ceroc the organisation doesn't really appear to do this. I guess this is where the conflict with business policy comes in. If Ceroc was an evangelical organisation, every spare penny would go into advertising, and new publicity techniques would continually be risked. However in my 4+ years of going to Ceroc I haven't seen any substantial change or expansion in the way it is publicised, at either national or local level. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but other than occasional appearances in Sunday supplements, an ad in the List and busking, I don't know of any other publicity.

Other dance organisations appear to do less on the publicity front, so in comparison to them, Ceroc seems to have "got it right" - but maybe it could get it "more" right...

Apols if I've misinterpreted your point Gus :)

Franck
29th-December-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Stuart M
If Ceroc was an evangelical organisation, every spare penny would go into advertising, and new publicity techniques would continually be risked. However in my 4+ years of going to Ceroc I haven't seen any substantial change or expansion in the way it is publicised, at either national or local level. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but other than occasional appearances in Sunday supplements, an ad in the List and busking, I don't know of any other publicity. I would be interested to discover those 'new publicity techniques' you refer to!
In the last 11 years, I reckon I've experimented with all sorts of advertising, press and radio, we also try to get on Television, and succeeded a few times (though Ceroc UK as a larger organization has had more impact and is continually working with PR companies to get more tv coverage). The reason why you have mostly seen adverts in the List Magazine, Sunday supplements, Metro (Free newspaper), and you forgot the Yellow Pages (which is comparatively very expensive) is that those have had a proven impact, so we keep using them.
Busking is the single most effective way of getting new people to dance, and I wish I had more time / resources to do it more often everywhere.
Finally, This Forum, and other web pages, also had a huge advertising and evangelical impact... which I hope will continue and increase in the New Year! :waycool:

Many other techniques were tried and ditched as they didn't work out. Advertising resources are limited, and most of the 'Evangelism' you refer to has been done by opening new classes in new areas, which typically will consume all time and financial resources for up to a 12/18 months...

I don't see a conflict between evangelism and commercial realism, the more I evangelize, the more successful the classes are... :nice:

ChrisA
29th-December-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally from Franck's new sig
Click here to get the latest 'Learn to Ceroc' DVD from Amazon.co.uk

Ok, I clicked there !!!

The DVD is called "Beginners Modern Jive - the easy way to learn", and it's got a "Ceroc" logo in the top left corner, and a "Dance Makers" logo in the bottom left.

I'm intrigued... who are "Dance Makers", and is this a Ceroc publication, or something else with a Ceroc association?

Chris

ChrisA
29th-December-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
The DVD is called "Beginners Modern Jive - the easy way to learn"
From the synopsis:

"A step by step beginners guide to learning modern jive. All the basic moves are demonstrated including First Move, First Move Pushpin, Basket, Pushpin, Half Windmill, Side To Side Shoulders, Comb and many more. "

I'm looking forward to learning this new Pushpin (sic) move...

:D :D :D

Chris, proof reading services available for a reasonable fee

TheTramp
29th-December-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Franck
I don't see a conflict between evangelism and commercial realism, the more I evangelize, the more successful the classes are... :nice: So, we don't busk any more? We evangelize??

Steve

Franck
29th-December-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
So, we don't busk any more? We evangelize?? Exactly, and from now on, we'll all have to shave our heads first and wear bright orange sheets.... Chanting hare Ceroc, hare Ceroc ....

:D

Franck
29th-December-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Ok, I clicked there !!! Ah... but did you order the DVD? You know it makes sense :wink:

It is the Ceroc DVD, but marketed by another company to a 'wider' audience / market... I recently found out it was available in the Sales on Amazon, and thought I'd experiment with my signature :nice:

All in the spirit of Evangelism of course :D

ChrisA
29th-December-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Franck
Ah... but did you order the DVD? You know it makes sense :wink:

Who's been telling you about my dancing?

:tears: :tears: :tears:

TheTramp
29th-December-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Franck
Exactly, and from now on, we'll all have to shave our heads first and wear bright orange sheets.... Chanting hare Ceroc, hare Ceroc .... No Franck. I said evangelize. Not brainwash! :na:

Steve

Lounge Lizard
29th-December-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Having read this Forum, a casual observer would probably note that the 'first' to do just about everything was Lounge Lizard:devil:

?:what:

Jive Brummie
29th-December-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Exactly, and from now on, we'll all have to shave our heads first and wear bright orange sheets.... Chanting hare Ceroc, hare Ceroc ....

:D

Right, I've done the shaved head thing...but orange:confused: Doesn't really go with my skin tone:wink:

James.:cheers:

Neil
29th-December-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
The DVD is called "Beginners Modern Jive - the easy way to learn", and it's got a "Ceroc" logo in the top left corner, and a "Dance Makers" logo in the bottom left. Hmm, apparently one of the special features of this DVD is "Ceroc Information Propaganda", which is refreshingly honest...

(see http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AOWMQ/)

Neil

Andy McGregor
29th-December-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
?:what:

Here are a couple of inexact quotes, but they give a flavour:devil:

"Ceroc started consolidation lessons after I'd been doing them for a few years..."

"I introduced that track into the MJ scene"

I'm certain there are others but I think the 2 above are enough to prove my case:wink:

Lounge Lizard
29th-December-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Here are a couple of inexact quotes, but they give a flavour:devil:

"Ceroc started consolidation lessons after I'd been doing them for a few years..."

"I introduced that track into the MJ scene"

I'm certain there are others but I think the 2 above are enough to prove my case:wink:

I was refering to local Leroc class that expected beginners to sit out during the intermediate class.

If my contribution to the MJ scene is to introduce new music and improve the structure of LOCAL classes then thats fine by me but perhaps I should not discuss it on the forum.

Emma
29th-December-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Jive Brummie
...but orange:confused: Doesn't really go with my skin tone:wink: :rofl:

James' skin tone aside...why does it have to be an either or situation? (other that the fact it makes excellent argumentative threadage...:wink: )

Yes Ceroc/MJ is a business, but the few people I know involved in the business side of MJ tend to be highly evangelical about dancing as well as business-oriented. Personally I don't see a conflict. Indeed I'd suggest you have to be fairly smitten by dancing/passing on the dancing bug to get involved in the business side in the first place. Don't know of any MJ millionaires....

Andy McGregor
29th-December-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Emma
snip

. Don't know of any MJ millionaires....

James Cronin.

Andy McGregor
29th-December-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
-/snip/-

but perhaps I should not discuss it on the forum.

Don't let me stop you Mr Lizard. The Forum is all about discussion and debate. The thing is that statements will be placed on the anvil of debate and beaten with a very large hammer by other 'blacksmiths' until you hardly recognise your original premise. You will be quoted and mis-quoted, but isn't that part of the fun? And throughout it all you need to maintain your sense of humour:wink:

Emma
29th-December-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
James Cronin. Yeah, that *is* the obvious answer....tho I guess the money we are assuming he has came from selling the business...but do we begrudge him it? Not me - the guy had a fantastic idea and sold it. Good for him. And was he an evangelist? I have no personal information but am prepared to bet he was.

Andy McGregor
29th-December-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by Emma
Yeah, that *is* the obvious answer....tho I guess the money we are assuming he has came from selling the business...but do we begrudge him it? Not me - the guy had a fantastic idea and sold it. Good for him. And was he an evangelist? I have no personal information but am prepared to bet he was.

I think he's worth every penny too. The reason I believe he's made at least a million is that I've heard he's considering starting his own church in New Zealand. That sounds expensive.

And evangelical.

Gus
30th-December-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
James Cronin.

Millionaires??

Not James (if what I'm told is true) but there are at least 2 to 3 franchisees in the UK who have made serious dosh ... and why not if they've put in all the hard work.

RogerR
1st-January-2004, 07:43 PM
Like the way Amazon have paired the ceroc vid with the original Christine Keeble LeRoc vid!!!!!!!!

Graham W
2nd-January-2004, 03:54 PM
I think it veers more to a business slant which is a shame...thats my experience of Hammersmith,anyway.. "roll 'em in", but it's in better shape then the Bristol LeRoc scene at present..no doubt.!

(Scotland seems different but never been...)

G