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stairman
16th-July-2011, 05:39 PM
Is it just me or do others in class have the occasional follow inform you what you are doing wrong and yet you have lead the move correctly with all the follows before and after


Stairman

philsmove
16th-July-2011, 07:01 PM
fact of life
if a women tells you are doing it wrong, you are doing it wrong
end of story

geoff332
16th-July-2011, 07:04 PM
fact of life
if a women tells you are doing it wrong, you are doing it wrong
end of storyEither that or she's wrong.

Unless you're prejudge that men are always wrong and women are always right. But I'm sure that sort of bigotry isn't what you meant.

Lee Bartholomew
16th-July-2011, 07:53 PM
I was teaching intermediates at a class I had never danced at before and joint in the beginners lesson.

One woman on spotting I had not danced there before started to tell me I was doing stuff wrong, thinking I was new to it all (I think it was the 1st move) when in fact it has her ballsing up. I let her think she done ok.

The look on her face was priceless when I was introduced at the end of the lesson as the guest teacher :)

stairman
16th-July-2011, 11:11 PM
fact of life
if a women tells you are doing it wrong, you are doing it wrong
end of story

They are correct I am getting it wrong with them dont fully understand why maybe they are backleading

philsmove
16th-July-2011, 11:11 PM
. But I'm sure that sort of bigotry isn't what you meant.

Absolutely not
but remember, all mistakes, are the fault of the leader

stairman
16th-July-2011, 11:15 PM
Absolutely not
but remember, all mistakes, are the fault of the leader

Fully agree, I will just have to learn how to cope

stairman
16th-July-2011, 11:16 PM
I persume that I am not alowed to tell them

Minnie M
17th-July-2011, 09:06 AM
Much better than them taking control and backleading ;)

Princess Fi
17th-July-2011, 10:48 AM
Absolutely not
but remember, all mistakes, are the fault of the leader

Only when the follow is following perfectly.

If you're concerned about whether your lead is correct, either ask a follow you rate or, ideally, a taxi or the teacher.

DavidY
17th-July-2011, 11:29 AM
Is it just me or do others in class have the occasional follow inform you what you are doing wrong and yet you have lead the move correctly with all the follows before and afterIn the middle of a class is about the worst time to judge whether you are leading correctly. Many people will appear to follow the routine correctly in a class because they can see the teacher too, and they've just done it a few times with other people and know what they're supposed to do.

You could waft your hands randomly in the air whilst humming the Star-Spangled Banner and many partners will still "follow" the routine being taught from the stage.

Northants Girly
17th-July-2011, 11:35 AM
Be honest now Lee. Were you leading the moves exactly as they were being taught or were you mucking about? :devil:

Andy McGregor
17th-July-2011, 11:37 AM
fact of life
if a women tells you are doing it wrong, you are doing it wrong
end of storyEven if she IS doing it wrong, it would be wrong of you to point it out. Just smile and say thank you and the world is still lovely :flower:

stairman
17th-July-2011, 01:56 PM
Thanks everyone.

As I suspected, I have to continue with the philosophy that if they are not following it is because I am not leading THEM properly and should work on finding the right method to lead them

Andy McGregor
17th-July-2011, 03:38 PM
Thanks everyone.

As I suspected, I have to continue with the philosophy that if they are not following it is because I am not leading THEM properly and should work on finding the right method to lead themYou might be leading them correctly. But they might not be following your lead properly. This doesn't mean it's your fault or that your lead is at fault. To dance properly requires that both lead and follow are correct - things go wrong if either is faulty.

What is at fault is their manners. Unless they are a teacher they should not be criiticising your lead. Even then, it's bad form to teach in someone else's lesson unless you are a member of crew. However, you should not meet bad manners with more bad manners - that shows a lack of class. Simply accept the 'advice' with good grace and move on with a smile.

David Bailey
18th-July-2011, 10:08 AM
Is it just me or do others in class have the occasional follow inform you what you are doing wrong and yet you have lead the move correctly with all the follows before and after
It's just you.

:)


The look on her face was priceless when I was introduced at the end of the lesson as the guest teacher :)
I've had that one also, at the iJig practica a while back; a guy was attempting a move so badly I couldn't tell what he was even trying to do; I asked him "Is that a gancho?" (meaning "are you trying to do a gancho with that?") and he took it as an invitation to describe to me, in great detail, how to lead the move. Which was not, actually a gancho. I kept schtum and thanked him at the end.

David Bailey
18th-July-2011, 10:18 AM
On a serious note...

As I suspected, I have to continue with the philosophy that if they are not following it is because I am not leading THEM properly and should work on finding the right method to lead them
Actually, if you're leading it fine with 99 women but having a problem with 1 woman, it's possible that the woman is following so badly that she's effectively unleadable. Some followers get it into their heads that there's Only One Way to do things, and that any deviation from their specific way is Wrong. You can give them as clear a lead as possible, and they still won't get it, simply because they are - deliberately - not following your lead.


I persume that I am not alowed to tell them
Of course you can tell them, but there's no point in you telling them. The best bet, if you really want to fix it, is to try it in freestyle, then when it goes wrong ask the teacher for his / her opinion. The follower will listen to the teacher, we hope.

Failing that, just put up with it in the class and don't dance with her in freestyles.

Andy McGregor
18th-July-2011, 12:45 PM
Actually, if you're leading it fine with 99 women but having a problem with 1 woman, it's possible that the woman is following so badly that she's effectively unleadable. I can remember trying to ride a bicycle at a school fete where the front wheel went the opposite way to the direction you turned the handlebars. Some women are like this when they follow. But they do it through mind-reading. If you try to turn them in the correct direction they go the opposite way - but try to fool them by leading in the opposite direction from the way you'd like them to turn and they go that way. This is because they've read your mind. They go the opposite way to the direction in your head, irrespective of the physical lead. In this case you have to make your mind a blank, don't tell yourself what way you'd like the lady to turn and be happy that she turns at all.

philsmove
18th-July-2011, 06:27 PM
the front wheel went the opposite way to the direction you turned the handlebars. Some women are like this .

:rofl::clap::rofl:

straycat
19th-July-2011, 09:15 AM
I can remember trying to ride a bicycle at a school fete where the front wheel went the opposite way to the direction you turned the handlebars. Some women are like this when they follow. But they do it through mind-reading. If you try to turn them in the correct direction they go the opposite way - but try to fool them by leading in the opposite direction from the way you'd like them to turn and they go that way.

I know your tongue is firmly in your cheek here, but still.... my belief is that (deliberate hijacks and self-preservation requirements aside) no-one follows badly on purpose, and that as leaders, we need to remember that.

David Bailey
19th-July-2011, 09:30 AM
I know your tongue is firmly in your cheek here, but still.... my belief is that (deliberate hijacks and self-preservation requirements aside) no-one follows badly on purpose, and that as leaders, we need to remember that.

Actually, a few - a very few - followers do "follow badly on purpose". They may not think of it that way of course, but a few followers do indeed deliberately ignore the lead, and do what they think they "should" do, no matter what.

To me, that's following badly on purpose.

Andy McGregor
19th-July-2011, 09:47 AM
I know your tongue is firmly in your cheek here, but still.... my belief is that (deliberate hijacks and self-preservation requirements aside) no-one follows badly on purpose, and that as leaders, we need to remember that.This is equally true for leading. Nobody leads badly on purpose.

We are all in a learning situation, including the teacher*. We should take this into account and not judge our partners or make them wrong. In any couple, one or the other will get something first - it would be bad form to point out that the other person got it last. Give them a chance!

NickC
19th-July-2011, 12:36 PM
I dont know about anyone else, but I have felt like smacking my partner in the face once or twice, but not in the last 5 years, must have got beyond all that. Dont really get insulted much these days, if I do, I find the best dancer I can and dance with them in front of the complainer, does not solve anything, but it does make me feal better.

Lory
19th-July-2011, 02:29 PM
Men! They're sooo touchy! :devil::D

Gerry
19th-July-2011, 04:11 PM
Years ago I was dancing at Hammersmith, I put a girl in a drop and she throw her head back. I stupidly made a comment about her throwing her head back that it could be dangerous. She turned around and said she was a teacher and that I was a sh*t dancer. End of conversation:banghead::banghead:

Lou
19th-July-2011, 06:03 PM
I guess there's 2 lessons to be learnt from this thread:


Never criticise or try to teach your partner, even if you have the best intentions. Chances are it won't be welcomed.
Some pairings just don't gel. It may well be that both of you are actually good dancers - with other people! :wink:

straycat
20th-July-2011, 09:39 AM
Men! They're sooo touchy! :devil::D

Excuse me? What exactly are you implying? :angry:

(:whistle: :innocent: :flower:)

meghann
20th-July-2011, 09:59 AM
Apparently I'm the exception here but I'd prefer to be told if I'm doing something wrong, and I think I'm at a stage where I can tell genuine and useful corrections from complaints from people who for whatever reason aren't dancing well with me.

Re: deliberately dancing badly, there's one guy who insults me (presumably not intentionally) whenever I dance with him, so I just avoid him as much as possible and dance badly with him when I fail to escape him :devil:

David Bailey
20th-July-2011, 10:46 AM
Men! They're sooo touchy! :devil::D
And feely. Apparently. :yum:

David Bailey
20th-July-2011, 10:50 AM
I guess there's 2 lessons to be learnt from this thread:


Never criticise or try to teach your partner, even if you have the best intentions. Chances are it won't be welcomed.
My rules are:

Never criticize anyone whilst social dancing. Ever. Even if they ask for such critiques.

Never criticize anyone whilst in a class, unless:

You're being paid to do so
They explicitly ask for critiques, you know exactly what you're doing, and the answer is clear and simple. (e.g. "you're stepping back on the wrong foot")



Well, they're more like guidelines than actual rules...

David Bailey
20th-July-2011, 10:52 AM
This is equally true for leading. Nobody leads badly on purpose.
Some leaders lead wrong, however, whilst firmly convinced that they're leading well.


We are all in a learning situation, including the teacher*. We should take this into account and not judge our partners or make them wrong. In any couple, one or the other will get something first - it would be bad form to point out that the other person got it last. Give them a chance!
Hippie :na:

Andy McGregor
20th-July-2011, 11:51 AM
My rules are:

Never criticize anyone whilst social dancing. Ever. Even if they ask for such critiques.

Never criticize anyone whilst in a class, unless:

You're being paid to do so
They explicitly ask for critiques, you know exactly what you're doing, and the answer is clear and simple. (e.g. "you're stepping back on the wrong foot")



Well, they're more like guidelines than actual rules...I agree with this apart from one thing. Outside the private lesson situation I no longer give away critiques to dancers I don't class as friends. Two reason: the first is to do with giving away your product: the second is that a "critique" requires a sort of MOT style list of faults - nobody wants to have their bubble burst!

However, at my own classes I'm quite happy to give someone a tip like a single thing to work on: keeping their shoulders down/elbow pointing at the floor, looking at their partner, not sticking out their bottom, etc.

At other people's classes I'd never teach unless I was the teacher.

frodo
20th-July-2011, 11:09 PM
Years ago I was dancing at Hammersmith, I put a girl in a drop and she throw her head back. I stupidly made a comment about her throwing her head back that it could be dangerous. She turned around and said she was a teacher and that I was a sh*t dancer. End of conversation:banghead::banghead:


Never criticise or try to teach your partner, even if you have the best intentions. Chances are it won't be welcomed.
While it is probably damaging to point out something dangerous, maybe that should still be an exception.

Andy McGregor
21st-July-2011, 12:54 AM
While it is probably damaging to point out something dangerous, maybe that should still be an exception.My advice in this situation is to get someone else to point out the problem. Preferably the teacher, organiser, person who pays the insurance premium, etc.

NZ Monkey
21st-July-2011, 02:38 AM
Years ago I was dancing at Hammersmith, I put a girl in a drop and she throw her head back. I stupidly made a comment about her throwing her head back that it could be dangerous. She turned around and said she was a teacher and that I was a sh*t dancer. End of conversation:banghead::banghead:I wonder if she's managed to smash her head into the floor in the years since then.... and then blamed the leader for dropping her too far.

I've got to admit when I hear someone snap that they're a teacher immediately after receiving criticism or advice, I'm usually left wondering why that response was the first one that came to them instead of something about technique or safety. It's essentially the grown-up version of "I'm right and you're wrong", but being a teacher doesn't necessarily mean they're right. It should mean they're reasonably well practiced at explaining why they think they're right though. :devil:

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-July-2011, 11:00 AM
Some pairings just don't gel. It may well be that both of you are actually good dancers - with other people! :wink:

I quite often find in classes that a couple would struggle getting the patterns right when they are together, but both do absolutely fine when in class rotation with others.

Lory
22nd-July-2011, 12:24 PM
There are things I find that make a difference to turns or spinning.

Good..

Being prepped

being accelerated if the man is wanting you to do multipul turns

the man keeping his hand 'up' if he wants me to do more than one

the man bring his hand down, to clearly indicate that the turns have finished

After multipul spins, its nice if the guy allows me time to recover by either going into some sort of dip or drop and holding me me for a moment

Its also nice if I get a return.. just to allow the blood to stop spinning

The bad..

Men who expect us to turn from cold.. by this I mean, there's no prep or warning, they just suddenly grab your hips or shoulders or raise their hand a stir :sick:

Men who lower their hand and then raise it again, for a second turn :really: You wanted me to turn again did you? Guys, if you want us to do a double, DON'T lower your hand!

Men who don't bring their hands down after a turn, it makes us think you want us to turn again. Confusing :confused:

Men who don't wait for us to finish our momentum before trying to lead us in the oposite direction... OUCH! :tears: