Ceroc and Modern Jive History

[Amir]

Hello! I would really appreciate any posts on the History of Ceroc and Modern Jive - How did it evolve, where did it come from, which dance forms did it develop out of and which music was it first danced to, how many moves were there initially, were there classes or did people just meet up, was there foot work or none, are there other countries that do it or similar under different names etc... and ANYTHING!

I have heard hundreds of often conflicting rumours, so none of those please. I'm interested in first hand experience and reliable sources. Every internet site I look at has a completely different and oversimplified version. Please state the source of any posts - were you teaching it, doing classes, observing or have you heard something directly from someone who was?

Cheers!

[TheTramp]

I think that the people you probably need to talk to, are Roger Chin and David Barker (or Mike Ellard). Assuming that you can't get to see James Cronin himself....

Franck a bit of a newbie. He's only been around for 19 years! :D

Steve

[TheTramp]

Oops. I'm sure I hit the edit button, and not the new post button.

Ah well... :D

Steve

[Martin]

Originally posted by amir_giles
Hello! I would really appreciate any posts on the History of Ceroc and Modern Jive - How did it evolve, where did it come from, which dance forms did it develop out of and which music was it first danced to, how many moves were there initially, were there classes or did people just meet up, was there foot work or none, are there other countries that do it or similar under different names etc... and ANYTHING!

I have heard hundreds of often conflicting rumours, so none of those please. I'm interested in first hand experience and reliable sources. Every internet site I look at has a completely different and oversimplified version. Please state the source of any posts - were you teaching it, doing classes, observing or have you heard something directly from someone who was?

Cheers!

Which one do you want Amir, Ceroc history, James Cronin.

Modern Jive history, you will want to speak to Christine Keeble or Michel Ange Lau.

If no luck with the above, catch Roger Chin - he will be sure to give you the low down.


(I could tell you myself - however, why not get it from the horses mouth?)

[Debster]

Amir, don't you think it has evolved out of too many dance styles to count? And how can you pin point exactly when it became a new dance?

Do you think it will have been 'born' with one particular dancer who gave it a certain style? Thinking about our chat last night where you said that dance styles achieved quality when they were formailsed and codified - does that mean modern jive hasn't been born yet because we don't have the details written down in rules somewhere?

I was really surprised to see what looked just like modern jive in a couple of seventies shows I watched a couple of months ago (i.e. Saturday Night Fever, and an episode of the original Charlies Angels). How do we prove that it was or wasn't the same as what we are doing now but by another name?

Sorry if I argued with you too much yesterday. I just get frustrated when I perceive that people want to make this fun social relaxed activity into a structured form of dance.

I think you should establish your own dance style! :D You have some great ideas and fantastic moves and new combinations. Be the founder! :D :D Start the history. I'm not sure you want or need to drag modern jive up in the world with you.

Build it and they will dance.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Debster
Amir, don't you think it has evolved out of too many dance styles to count? And how can you pin point exactly when it became a new dance?

Do you think it will have been 'born' with one particular dancer who gave it a certain style? Thinking about our chat last night where you said that dance styles achieved quality when they were formailsed and codified - does that mean modern jive hasn't been born yet because we don't have the details written down in rules somewhere?

I was really surprised to see what looked just like modern jive in a couple of seventies shows I watched a couple of months ago (i.e. Saturday Night Fever, and an episode of the original Charlies Angels). How do we prove that it was or wasn't the same as what we are doing now but by another name?

Sorry if I argued with you too much yesterday. I just get frustrated when I perceive that people want to make this fun social relaxed activity into a structured form of dance.

I think you should establish your own dance style! :D You have some great ideas and fantastic moves and new combinations. Be the founder! :D :D Start the history. I'm not sure you want or need to drag modern jive up in the world with you.

Build it and they will dance.

A good point Debster,

Ceroc, Le Roc, Modern Jive as we affectionatly call it (PC don't you know) can certainly be traced as to who, when, where it started to be teached/adapted to modern music in the UK.

When people ask what I do I normally say "Modern Partner Dance" as yes it does constantly evolve and certain characters have influence on it, yes of course we all steal "the best from the rest" and dance it to modern music with basic (normally) footwork.

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Debster
Amir, don't you think it has evolved out of too many dance styles to count? And how can you pin point exactly when it became a new dance? .......... looked just like modern jive in a couple of seventies shows I watched a couple of months ago (i.e. Saturday Night Fever, and an episode of the original Charlies Angels).

Spot on Debster:wink:

Being a child of the 50's I danced Rock and Roll in my youth club, they now call it 'traditional rock and roll' and most oldies my age still dance it in their local clubs

When I was about 15yrs, that would be 1959 (without my parents' knowledge) I used to dance in the French night clubs in London (eg: Whisky-a go- go, in Wardour St. and La Plu Belle in Poland St.) and they did a jive very similar to what we now call MJ - they called it 'French Jive' and I can recognise a few moves from that time, we do in Ceroc classes today. It was very different to the Rock and Roll the English did mainly because the lead caught his partner so there was REAL contact (ie MJ first move) and they did the 'basket' quite a lot, plus it was a lot smoother and quite sexy. :drool: (the leads weren't bad either, alas I was only 15 :tears: )

You now need a French dancer, who was dancing in the 50's and before this time to continue the story

[Gus]

Originally posted by Debster
....I just get frustrated when I perceive that people want to make this fun social relaxed activity into a structured form of dance.


But is there a counterpoint that a lot of people have already made MJ something else by the introduction of competition ... and by creating the 'monster' there is a need to define what MJ is? I dont see a ready link between fun social AND competition.

I know that there have already been a number of people looking at the roots of MJ ... and good luck to them. MJ is an ever evolving art form (for some) and has many avenues (e.g. inclusion of Salsa, Tango etc). It could well be that by looking at the past someone may uncover some forgotten aspects of the dance that modern dancers may enjoy.:grin:

[Martin]

Originally posted by Gus
But is there a counterpoint that a lot of people have already made MJ something else by the introduction of competition ... and by creating the 'monster' there is a need to define what MJ is? I dont see a ready link between fun social AND competition.

I know that there have already been a number of people looking at the roots of MJ ... and good luck to them. MJ is an ever evolving art form (for some) and has many avenues (e.g. inclusion of Salsa, Tango etc). It could well be that by looking at the past someone may uncover some forgotten aspects of the dance that modern dancers may enjoy.:grin:

The scary thing is in comps in Sydney, Melboure and Brisbane they are now talking about 80% / 90% modern jive or mark them down:sick:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Martin
The scary thing is in comps in Sydney, Melboure and Brisbane they are now talking about 80% / 90% modern jive or mark them down:sick:

And the defintion of MJ would be ........:wink:

[Martin]

Originally posted by Gus
And the defintion of MJ would be ........:wink:

Precicely my argument

[Amir]

Originally posted by Debster
Amir, don't you think it has evolved out of too many dance styles to count? And how can you pin point exactly when it became a new dance?

Do you think it will have been 'born' with one particular dancer who gave it a certain style?
You're right - I don't think you can pin point exact dates, dance forms or people. Like a language, you can rarely pinpoint anything but you can still learn about its history and evolution. It's probably quite boring for most people, but I find it fascinating.

For example, Tango initially evolved in poor areas and brothels, in a demographic situation where there were 50 men to every one women in Buenos Aires. I find these facts lend me great insight into the dance, such as the nature of the embrace and the tradition of men dancing with men… (there were no women to practise with!) .

Many ballroom dances evolved during a time where men would wear a sword on their left side, which mean they could only get close to a lady with their right arm, hence the evolution of the ‘embrace’ now popular all over the world, even in Ceroc where you bring the girl to your right side in a first move! I always used to wonder why most leading is done with my left hand when most people are right handed...

I am likewise interested in finding out about the environment that created modern jive. I loved reading about how the semi circle to the left was invented. I care less who or on which day it happened, but would love more similar posts, and the more detail the better!

Originally posted by Debster
Thinking about our chat last night where you said that dance styles achieved quality when they were formailsed and codified - does that mean modern jive hasn't been born yet because we don't have the details written down in rules somewhere?

I’m trying not to start a debate because it would be really cool if this thread could remain open to more anictodes and recolections etc, But just want to make sure people don’t think that I think Modern Jive hasn’t been born: It’s born and very much alive all around the world. Long live Modern Jive.!

To clarify, in my opinion, one of the factors that help ensure the survival and quality of a dance form is its codification and formalization. As can be seen in ballet, for example, this does not stop its evolution or growth. Modern Ballet today is different from even ten years ago, but it remains one of the most codified and formalized dance forms on the planet.

But that’s a story for another thread!

Originally posted by Debster
I just get frustrated when I perceive that people want to make this fun social relaxed activity into a structured form of dance.
I wouldn’t want the fun, social and relaxed environment to disappear either! My personal belief is that a more structured form will make the dance easier to learn, teach and dance with people all over the world. I learnt Ceroc in NZ, and it took me 6 months before I felt I could lead anyone over in the UK. Not because dancers were better or worse over here, just because there is no international agreement on the basics. I'm a little worried that when i go back to NZ that I won't be able to dance with people there very easily. (It may be easier to adapt as a follower)

Because of codification you don’t get that problem in ballroom – if you can lead a tango in the UK you can lead it anywhere in the world, and still retain a personal or regional style.

I think the reason ballroom has a less relaxed environment is because the emphasis there is on ‘dancesport’ and competitions, not social gatherings. But again, that’s a story for another thread.

I have already learnt something new from your 'Saturday Night Fever' observation, and even more from Minnie M's Rock n' Roll recollections. (thankyou!) It would be cool to see if anyone else has similar anecdotes etc?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Minnie M
When I was about 15yrs, that would be 1959 (without my parents' knowledge) I used to dance in the French night clubs in London (eg: Whisky-a go- go, in Wardour St. and La Plu Belle in Poland St.)

Would that be the Whisky-a-Go-Go and La Plus Belle French Lap dancing bars that famously employed underage dancers?

I thought I recognised you:wink:

Don't worry, your secret's safe with us:devil:

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Would that be the Whisky-a-Go-Go and La Plus Belle French Lap dancing bars that famously employed underage dancers?

I thought I recognised you:wink:

Don't worry, your secret's safe with us:devil:

Forgot about Andy :what: - sorry should have said JIVED at not danced :nice:

By the way my french is not very good - la plus belle should be the french for dustbin - just can't spell in french (that should be some more amo for Andy Mc)

[Neil]

Originally posted by Minnie M
By the way my french is not very good - la plus belle should be the french for dustbin - just can't spell in french = La Poubelle.

Franck might also be interested to know that apparently there was a French nightclub in Soho called "Le Kilt" :D

Neil

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Neil
= La Poubelle.


Thanks Neil :hug:

[Will]

Originally posted by amir_giles

I’m trying not to start a debate because it would be really cool if this thread could remain open to more anictodes and recolections etc,
Amir, I'm sure someone posted a link to a website that had the audio of an old interview that James Cronin did for the BBC many years ago. I can't remember who it was who posted it or where the link was to though I'm afraid. If the person who put it up before is reading this......

[Jon L]

On a couple of Ceroc Australia video's I have . There is a short article on the Ceroc Australia which was recorded by Channel 7 Australia.

Now if Amir gathers enough information it's history could a short TV documentary be produced on Ceroc in the UK and how it came to be? It would have to be done I guess by someone who has a TV production background

[Martin]

Originally posted by Jon L
On a couple of Ceroc Australia video's I have . There is a short article on the Ceroc Australia which was recorded by Channel 7 Australia.

Now if Amir gathers enough information it's history could a short TV documentary be produced on Ceroc in the UK and how it came to be? It would have to be done I guess by someone who has a TV production background

Yup already been done and screened on Channel 4 some years ago.

It was a series called "Strictly Dancing" an episode called "Ceroc" and went to air 8:30pm.

It featured a beginner (Neil Crossley) and his first steps in the Ceroc world, including a beginners workshop held at the central club, London.

People on the video include Simon de Lisle (dancing in the park), Viktor (demoing the moves) plus a couple of other guys named James and Mike.

Quote from James Cronin “If you think of fast food you’ve got Ceroc, Ceroc is fast dancing, fast socialising”

James also claims in the show to have invented the name in 1980 being short for c’est le Rock (excuse if spelling incorrect)

Mike Ellard had a go at explaining his version of Ceroc history. To quote Mike “To answer the question as to where Ceroc came from you’d probably have to go back about 70 years” (note from Martin as this is an old program, make that now 80 years) “In the mid 20’s Charleston…The black population developed the Lindy hop, which was to begin with a jokey mimic of the Chaleston…. The Lindy hop developed into the Jitter bug in the mid 30’s…. In the mid 40’s the GI’s stationed in France imported jitter bug to France…because of the musical taste in France at that time the jitter bug wasn’t conducive…The French developed their own style of dance which was to a different beat which today we know as Ceroc”

The last bit is personally a bit vauge for me, having danced in the French clubs, they do not dance Ceroc (as we know it) they dance French jive, done in a line like west coast swing to faster music generally. – Dance in a circle and you will get clobbered [ however that was in about 1995 – not been back since]. Still, Kylie and I were inundated by the France asking to dance with them in the Paris clubs, we found we did have to adapt to the “slots system” or be bashed by flying feet and arms.


So there you have it IMHO Ceroc is simply the Chaleston consistently adapted to modern music of the time, across the world, and being constantly developed and updated.

As to the word “Modern Jive / Le Roc” – Leicester Square, 1979 Michel Ange Lau, Christine Keeble – That’s another story (if you have got this far you are doing well)

I see Ceroc as the UK version of modern partner dancing, now being danced and developed enthusiastically in NZ and Australia as well.
:cheers:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Martin
Still, Kylie and I were inundated by the France asking to dance with them in the Paris clubs,


Is this the blonde, tanned, stunningly attractive Kylie? She would be asked to dance in Tescos And Martin was younger and slimmer in those day too:devil:


Originally posted by Martin
So there you have it IMHO Ceroc is simply the Charleston consistently adapted to modern music of the time, across the world, and being constantly developed and updated.

All we need to do now is find out where the Charleston came from.

[Amir]

Britannica on Charleston:

social jazz dance highly popular in the 1920s and frequently revived. Characterized by its toes-in, heels-out twisting steps, it was performed as a solo, with a partner, or in a group. Mentioned as early as 1903, it was originally a black folk dance known throughout the American South and especially associated with Charleston, S.C. Analysis of its movements shows it to have strong parallels in certain dances of Trinidad, Nigeria, and Ghana. In its early form the dance was highly abandoned and was performed to complex rhythms beaten out by foot stamps and handclaps. About 1920 professional dancers adopted the dance, and, after its appearance in the black musical Runnin' Wild (1923), it became a national craze. As a fashionable ballroom dance it lost some of the exuberance of the earlier version.

Charleston music is in quick 4/4 time with syncopated rhythms. In the basic step the knees are bent, then straightened, as the feet pivot in and out. Weight is shifted from one leg to another, the free leg being kicked out from the body at an oblique angle. The basic step is often interspersed with strenuous movements, such as forward and backward kicks while traveling forward.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by amir_giles
Britannica on Charleston:

-/snip/-.

Charleston music is in quick 4/4 time with syncopated rhythms. In the basic step the knees are bent, then straightened, as the feet pivot in and out. Weight is shifted from one leg to another, the free leg being kicked out from the body at an oblique angle. The basic step is often interspersed with strenuous movements, such as forward and backward kicks while traveling forward.

This sounds a bit like the Sh*g (I've put in an asterisk as I think we probably can't say it here). This is a popular dance in the USA and I always smile when I see signs in halls that say 'Sh*ggers meet here Thursdays'.:D

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
This sounds a bit like the Sh*g (I've put in an asterisk as I think we probably can't say it here). This is a popular dance in the USA and I always smile when I see signs in halls that say 'Sh*ggers meet here Thursdays'.:D

The American version I have seeen ( like West Coast Swing ) of the Shag is very different to what they teach here

Does anyone know why :confused:

- calling the Oracle - calling the Oracle - calling the Oracle -

[Nick M]

Mike Ellard had a go at explaining his version of Ceroc history. To quote Mike “To answer the question as to where Ceroc came from you’d probably have to go back about 70 years” (note from Martin as this is an old program, make that now 80 years) “In the mid 20’s Charleston…The black population developed the Lindy hop, which was to begin with a jokey mimic of the Chaleston…. The Lindy hop developed into the Jitter bug in the mid 30’s…. In the mid 40’s the GI’s stationed in France imported jitter bug to France…because of the musical taste in France at that time the jitter bug wasn’t conducive…The French developed their own style of dance which was to a different beat which today we know as Ceroc”

With a gradual simplification of footwork throughout.

Footwork in Charleston is jolly difficult, Lindy is simpler, Rock'n'roll simpler still, and by the time you get to Modern Jive, footwork is hardly considered at beginner level, other than thinking about which foot you step back on.

Nick

[RogerR]

Christine Keeble posts her potted history at www.howtojive.com along with loads of style history

I have some of the early french tunes they used and they do give the dance a very gallic style

One of the earliest djs was Mike West then Vince Roper did a long and formative stint at Busbys, SW1 club, and early central club days.

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
This sounds a bit like the Sh*g (I've put in an asterisk as I think we probably can't say it here). This is a popular dance in the USA and I always smile when I see signs in halls that say 'Sh*ggers meet here Thursdays'.:D


Nothing wrong with dancing the shag. It has nothing to do with Sex whatsoever in dance terms, ask Andy and Rena. I had a lesson on the dance :innocent: at Rebel Yell - it makes you get very out of breath. There are apparently two versions of the shag dance the lindy version as mentioned above and the Carolina version which is totally different.

If you listen to General Johnson & Chairman of the board "Shagging the night away" the lyrics tell you it's about a dance. A lot of jivers including some DJ's don't understand this. :innocent:

[foxylady]

Originally posted by Debster


I was really surprised to see what looked just like modern jive in a couple of seventies shows I watched a couple of months ago (i.e. Saturday Night Fever, and an episode of the original Charlies Angels).

Got back from Hipsters tonight to find 'Saturday night fever' on. The dance sequences were almost identical to MJ except with occasionally a little more footwork.... Good call Debs....

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Minnie M
The American version I have seeen ( like West Coast Swing ) of the Shag is very different to what they teach here

Does anyone know why :confused:

- calling the Oracle - calling the Oracle - calling the Oracle -
Andy & Rena etc teach lindy style shag but the the shag from south/north carolina is danced to 'beach music' I have been importing CD's from 'the wax' cd store since before I started DJ'ing and was one of the first to play chairman of the board - shagging the night away and DJ Robbie - Last night.
Yes they are aware of the double meaning of shag and play on it, the beach music is about 110bpm to 125bpm so ok for modern jive
There is a lot of 'cheese' music tho so when I buy a 'beach' music cd I expect no more than one decent dance track (if that) from a cd

The dance style is more footwork than MJ and the oracle can expand on that
peter

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by foxylady
Got back from Hipsters tonight to find 'Saturday night fever' on. The dance sequences were almost identical to MJ except with occasionally a little more footwork.... Good call Debs....

That's just jogged my ageing memory. I can remember going with, my then new girlfriend, Sue to 'Saturday Night Fever' dance classes in Harrow in the '70s. We were taught the line dances/strolls from the movie and also taught something very much like MJ, it was a sequence of about 8 moves - hey, the next time someone asks me when I first started MJ I'm going to say 1977!:wink: :waycool:

I missed seeing Saturday Night Fever last night - I have seen it about 15 times though. We go in from Hipsters at 4.45am. Having dropped off Kate and Kellie we went Christmas shopping in Tesco and M&S. Good plan but tiring exection:tears:

Last night at Hipsters was a fantastic crowd. Everyone was there (apart from a few of my B-list stalkers). That meant there were a few too many people but who would you have left out?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Last night at Hipsters was a fantastic crowd. Everyone was there (apart from a few of my B-list stalkers). Woohoo. I'm a B-list stalker :D

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Woohoo. I'm a B-list stalker :D

Steve

You should take your promotion with more decorum:wink:

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
...........the beach music is about 110bpm to 125bpm so ok for modern jive
.........and the oracle can expand on that

That is about the right tempo for WCS and definitely too slow for the kicking version of Shag the Lindy lot teach here.:wink: Thank god they didn't dance it at Hipsters last night, I have enough bruises as it is :really:

[DavidB]

Carolina Shag


Taken from Sonny Watson's StreetSwing.Com Website (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3shag1.htm)

"--- formed out of the Charleston, but today there is no resemblance at all. It is basically a slotted East Coast Swing dance with a splash of the West Coast Swing slot including both 6 and 8 count patterns. Carolina Shag originated at Myrtle Beach in So. Carolina in the 1930's, when then it looked more like the Charleston and Collegiate shag (10/1938-Carolina Shag -Dance Index Mag.) The "Shag" consists mainly of fancy footwork by the leader, with the follower matching his footwork occasionally. In the past it was the lady who called out the footwork she wanted to "mirror" (The follower occasionally will call out a name of footwork or a sequence and the man will lead it with her.) Choreography usually is not done socially or Competitively (but thats changing.) There are very few patterns done in Carolina Shag however an immense amount of "footwork" can be seen.

Carolina Shag has been around since W.W.II. and it became known as "Beach Swing" which was done to "Beach Music", basically old Motown, Blues and Oldies music today. The Shag is done primarily in the Southern States such as Florida, the Carolina's, Georgia, etc. and has a very smooth, connected feel with your partner and the music. Most people see the shag done to very slow music, however it can be and is done very fast as well. Today, West Coast Swing and Shag are starting to merge the best qualities of each of the two together and forming a newer style called SWAG! (Its really cool.) Shag became the official state dance of So. Carolina in 1984."


Saturday Night Fever

The dance in Saturday Night Fever is Hustle. Again StreetSwing.com have a good description (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3hustl1.htm) of it.

There is a video clip (from a teaching video) here (http://easylink.playstream.com/dance/jj02250k.wvx)

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by amir_giles

To clarify, in my opinion, one of the factors that help ensure the survival and quality of a dance form is its codification and formalization. As can be seen in ballet, for example, this does not stop its evolution or growth.


Argument 1)
Sounds like capturing a butterfly and formaldehyding it and sticking it in a glass box. Sure it survives/remains. Kind of sucking all the fun out of it though.

Surely codification is rules. And rules are a right way and wrong way of doing things. And a right way and a wrong way of doing things is teachers telling students this must be done in X way. And students being told something has to be done X way means little or no openness to experimentation.

Argument 2)
OK I just changed by mind. So call me a strange moaning boy and slap an ODA tag on me.

Ballroom is super codified. Please don't flame me, but 95% of ballroom dancers have no mental flexbility with respect to the way any types of dancing are done. They are taught that there is right and wrong, and anything that deviates from the code is bad. This means that 95% of grassroots ballroom dancers improve very rapidly as they are being taught a proven effective way of doing things, but therefore instinctively dislike any other ways of doing things. Watch a ballroom tango dancer recoil at an argentinian tango dancers posture and label it bad dancing.

But the way ballroom dancing grows isn't decided by the grassroots dancers, but by the top 1% that everyone copies, who leave the rules behind, by necessity, as they are doing general choreography for tv, musicals, shows and general dance performances. And they are the main influences on direction of development, so growth continues.