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Vidar
16th-April-2011, 09:23 AM
Spinning off the fascinating "New year, new dance" thread:

I've been dancing seriously since christmas. I'm happy with the intermedaite class, and I've reached the stage where I can 'freestyle confidently', as they goes. But I'm also conscious of the long list of bad habits that I need to correct. (Thanks to all the followers who gave me feedback!)

Anyway, I found this interesting:


Well if that were true, then there would not be so many compliants on here about things like floorcraft, as new dancers would pick it up by a process of osmosis. But they don't - I know plenty of dancers who have been dancing for years at a venue I go to, but who still insist on dancing in small spaces when there are big spaces available on the floor, don't watch out for other dancers and seem to have no consideration for others, despite there being other dancers at the same venue who are extremely good at it.


People I've danced with have given me advice on a lot of things, but I'd never heard about floorcraft. I've danced in some very packed venues (Clapham comes to mind) where I've found it very hard to avoid occasionally bumping yourself or your partner, or getting another person's foot on yours.

Aside from staying aware of what/who is around you, and avoiding moves that require a lot of space when you don't have that luxury, are there any other tips that people can give me to improve?

Thanks!

jim
16th-April-2011, 03:35 PM
Aside from staying aware of what/who is around you, and avoiding moves that require a lot of space when you don't have that luxury, are there any other tips that people can give me to improve?

Thanks!

That's pretty much nailed it.

But ok, you want more.

Be aware of the different dance space used by rotat'ers and slott'ers.

If your dancing in a slot, dance in the same direction as other dancers using a slot, don't dance accross their slot or have them dance accross yours.

Hold your ground. If you pick a place on the floor and 'hold it', other dancers will know where to expect you and hopefully avoid your space. You will also be able to attribute blame to yourself or to them if coulisions do occur.

Mentally divide small floors. If your dancing in front of the bar at southport for instance and there's three couples down the line then you have 1/3 of the bar to dance in, if there's two couples you have 1/2 the line.

Or grab the best dancer you can and try and intimidate other dancers into giving you more of floor space, choice is yours :devil:.

Oh yeh one more piece of advice 'look before you lead'. espically when dancing in a slot. -step off the line -look over your shoulder- lead her down the line. it's a good habbit even if somtimes the ladies don't understand why your constantly looking over your shoulder and around at other dancers.

cederic
16th-April-2011, 08:11 PM
That's pretty much nailed it.

The both of you have!

However, it is rare that floorcraft gets taught in MJ. "Get off the slot" is taught by good teachers (and WCS teachers) but there's nothing comparable to ballroom or tango type floorcraft teaching.

Experience does help an awful lot - not just how to lead safely, but also predicting what other couples are about to do.

I've found section 9.11 of http://eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ very useful as I learn floorcraft (section 9.12, ironically, less so), although the whole doc is just a mine of useful tips to a beginner.

Also don't be afraid to cut off your partner mid-move if it'll stop a collison - when I apologise after doing that half the time they thought it was just part of the lead (which is good and bad - the bad being the implication I lead half a move from time to time anyway) and the other half the time they're grateful I spotted it and saved them.

Similarly (and mentioned in the faq linked above), learn to read your partner's responses. She's often looking behind you and will spot potential issues long before you do.

Learn "travelling" moves - even just walking in a basket, or do the sway-out-to-turn-to-french-ladies-to-step-across-into-shoulder-drop-with-catapultesque-spin* which gets you a good ten yards with some partners without needing to stop dancing. Basically anything that uses far more space than you should be trying on a crowded dance floor can be used to get into new space (although be wary of other people doing the same thing. Unless you time it perfectly and just swap partners out of the spins..)

I'd appreciate any further tips that more experienced dancers can offer. Floorcraft is difficult :(

*Does anybody know the proper name for this one? Or any "build a move" dance websites I can plot the foot movements onto?

David Bailey
16th-April-2011, 08:39 PM
People I've danced with have given me advice on a lot of things, but I'd never heard about floorcraft.
:what: Your teachers should have mentioned it by now. Get new teachers.


I've danced in some very packed venues (Clapham comes to mind) where I've found it very hard to avoid occasionally bumping yourself or your partner, or getting another person's foot on yours.

Aside from staying aware of what/who is around you, and avoiding moves that require a lot of space when you don't have that luxury, are there any other tips that people can give me to improve?

Don't dance in crowded spaces.

(I know, I crack me up too :lol:)

OK, OK, the basic aims of floorcraft, from a leader's point of view, are:


Rule 1. Protect your partner from harm.
Rule 2. Protect yourself from harm - assuming this does not contradict Rule 1.
Rule 3: Protect other couples from harm - assuming this does not contradict Rule 1 or Rule 2.


(And yes, I have indeed shamelessly stolen the Three Laws of Robotics for that)

So, whenever you dance, if you can keep those in mind, then you'll be OK.

As to how to do it - methods vary. Personally I use a combination of Death Stares and sharp elbows. :innocent:

Vidar
17th-April-2011, 02:18 AM
Thanks, all good advice :)



Be aware of the different dance space used by rotat'ers and slott'ers.


In terms of rotating vs slotting, most of the venues I go to are ceroc, which means that rotation is the norm. But one of my non-ceroc venues is heavily into slotting, and it's noticeable how much easier things are there - thinking in terms of the slot is one of the good habits that I'm trying to get into. (On the other hand, I once danced with a very green novice at that venue, who kept turning off the slot. This wouldn't have been too bad, except that the adjacent slot was taken by a dancer who tended to power himself and his partner up and down the slot under the assumption that he didn't need to look where he was going... there were a lot of near misses that dance.)


If you pick a place on the floor and 'hold it', other dancers will know where to expect you and hopefully avoid your space.

As you say, a good idea on a small floor where you have points of reference. In the middle of a packed dancefloor with no point of reference though, I have trouble keeping track of exactly where my space is and the dancers around me's spaces are, though perhaps this comes from experience.


Or grab the best dancer you can and try and intimidate other dancers into giving you more of floor space

I've just got back from Chiswick, and I saw one guy in the (packed) blues room do this a lot. He got what he wanted, but seizing three times as much space as everyone else in a packed room doesn't exactly promote goodwill. :(


I've found section 9.11 of <link> very useful as I learn floorcraft (section 9.12, ironically, less so), although the whole doc is just a mine of useful tips to a beginner.

I've just browsed through a little of that document, and it looks fascinating. I'll read more when I have time - thanks for linking!



* Rule 1. Protect your partner from harm.
* Rule 2. Protect yourself from harm - assuming this does not contradict Rule 1.
* Rule 3: Protect other couples from harm - assuming this does not contradict Rule 1 or Rule 2.

(And yes, I have indeed shamelessly stolen the Three Laws of Robotics for that)


Absolutely agree on the priorities here. And it's good to know that some master dancers are sci-fi geeks - it reminds us that you're human too, and not unattainably supercool ubermensch... ;)


Personally I use a combination of Death Stares and sharp elbows.

Question: do they have to be your own elbows, or can you use your partner's too? (Subject to Rule One, of course.) There have been several occasions where I've had to yank back to stop my partner's elbows hitting someone else's head, but if it's a sanctioned method of teaching others to respect me, I may just let it happen in future... ;)

jim
17th-April-2011, 09:36 AM
Thanks, all good advice :)

As you say, a good idea on a small floor where you have points of reference. In the middle of a packed dancefloor with no point of reference though, I have trouble keeping track of exactly where my space is and the dancers around me's spaces are, though perhaps this comes from experience.



:really: don't dance in the middle of a packed dance floor. That's like driving around the centre of london without a map:wink:. Things coming from all directions.

Seriously though, I normally dance on the edge of the dance floor which is easier if your dancing slotted admittedly. Other dancers often aviod these areas because they're afraid of crashing into things, but I find that chairs, tables and walls don't unexpectedly move on me.

jim
17th-April-2011, 10:16 AM
Actually as a sub point, good floor craft is part of good following.

It's not always the leads fault.

cederic
17th-April-2011, 12:20 PM
Seriously though, I normally dance on the edge of the dance floor which is easier if your dancing slotted admittedly. Other dancers often aviod these areas because they're afraid of crashing into things, but I find that chairs, tables and walls don't unexpectedly move on me.

I noticed very early on that the best dancers tend to use the edges. I suspect it's partly because lots of dancers avoid them, partly because it's easier to get a slot there, partly so they can show off to the people sat watching, partly because the best dancers are there..

Whatever the reasons, I agree that edges and corners often have more space. Just two caveats:
- some followers (especially beginners) do get scared by chairs, stages, carpet boundaries and people walking past with drinks. I've been backled into the middle of the floor before now by a follower that didn't even realise she was doing it, she was so uncomfortable on the edge
- make sure you know your partner well before you lead her into the dark corner with no seating around it ;)

Minnie M
17th-April-2011, 12:47 PM
What I don't understand, is that they have said that WCS (which has come from Lindy Hop) became popular as it didn't need as much space - however, I have noticed that it is the 'slotted' dancers that I keep bumping into on the dance floor :rolleyes:

BTW when I was learning Lindy with Ryan Francois, he did a whole class on floorcraft AND Dan Guest makes dancers huddle up in a small space when teaching Balboa - whereas, most MJ teachers tend to just make students aware of other dancers within the lesson, rather than demonstrating it.

NZ Monkey
17th-April-2011, 10:35 PM
What I don't understand, is that they have said that WCS (which has come from Lindy Hop) became popular as it didn't need as much space - however, I have noticed that it is the 'slotted' dancers that I keep bumping into on the dance floor :rolleyes:
In my opinion WCS actually takes up more space on the dance floor than MJ. The open position takes up almost twice the space in WCS compared to MJ, and a lot of dancers will struggle keeping the dance going if they get unexpectedly penned in. That said, it's easier to line people up and use that space more efficiently if everyone is doing the same thing.

MJ dancers in general learn much better floorcraft that WCS ones for the sole reason that they need to learn better floorcraft to avoid getting hurt during social dancing. Getting taught floorcraft is a different ball game altogether of course.

WCS circumvents the problem somewhat rather than addresses it.

Twirly
24th-April-2011, 01:30 PM
:what: Your teachers should have mentioned it by now. Get new teachers.

The thing is though, they don't. I don't think that I've ever heard a teacher say "check over your shoulder before you step back" in a class. I was thinking this just last night as my partner who was next to me, lead us both backwards without checking. I did though. I don't trust other people!

Vidar, if you're dancing at Wessex House, you also have the lighting system to contend with. Pitch black one moment, blinding spotlight in your eyes the next, a red gloom the next. Very confusing! It sounds as though you're on the right tracks though - being aware that you should be trying to avoid the collisions is the first step. And if your follow knows you are looking round to make sure she's safe she will really appreciate it. Makes a girl feel very cared for :awe:

Vidar
25th-April-2011, 11:28 PM
Vidar, if you're dancing at Wessex House, you also have the lighting system to contend with. Pitch black one moment, blinding spotlight in your eyes the next, a red gloom the next. Very confusing!

Agreed - I've learned that identifying the points in the floor where you have the spotlights intermittantly dazzling you & your partner is just as important as identifying the areas with ridges/sockets in the dancefloor or awkwardly placed pillars.


It sounds as though you're on the right tracks though - being aware that you should be trying to avoid the collisions is the first step. And if your follow knows you are looking round to make sure she's safe she will really appreciate it. Makes a girl feel very cared for :awe:

There are leads who aren't aware that they should be trying to avoid collisions? That's... concerning. Makes me even more interested in learning to follow, just to see what it's like from the other side.

fandangle
1st-May-2011, 10:51 AM
Vidar, good thread. I suggest you read the thread here (http://www.southernjive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636) which also discusses this topic.

Little Monkey
1st-May-2011, 12:55 PM
And it's good to know that some master dancers are sci-fi geeks - it reminds us that you're human too, and not unattainably supercool ubermensch... ;)

David is human??? :what:

Gerry
16th-May-2011, 05:49 PM
In my opinion WCS actually takes up more space on the dance floor than MJ. The open position takes up almost twice the space in WCS compared to MJ, and a lot of dancers will struggle keeping the dance going if they get unexpectedly penned in. That said, it's easier to line people up and use that space more efficiently if everyone is doing the same thing.

MJ dancers in general learn much better floorcraft that WCS ones for the sole reason that they need to learn better floorcraft to avoid getting hurt during social dancing. Getting taught floorcraft is a different ball game altogether of course.

WCS circumvents the problem somewhat rather than addresses it.

I believe alot of the floor craft is self learnt in the MJ world.

NZ Monkey
16th-May-2011, 10:17 PM
I believe alot of the floor craft is self learnt in the MJ world.

And I agree with you 100% :cheers:

frodo
16th-May-2011, 10:51 PM
BTW when I was learning Lindy with Ryan Francois, he did a whole class on floorcraft AND Dan Guest makes dancers huddle up in a small space when teaching Balboa - whereas, most MJ teachers tend to just make students aware of other dancers within the lesson, rather than demonstrating it.
Unlike Lindy, WCS, MJ isn't the ability to dance in a small space a key benefit of Balboa.
Might it be better to compare floorcraft teaching with other dances that work well in small spaces.


I believe alot of the floor craft is self learnt in the MJ world.
Less so than in the WCS world ?

meghann
17th-May-2011, 08:54 AM
Unlike Lindy, WCS, MJ isn't the ability to dance in a small space a key benefit of Balboa.
Might it be better to compare floorcraft teaching with other dances that work well in small spaces.

Yes, that's right, one of the forces guiding the development of balboa was the need to dance on crowded floors.

It's been my personal experience that MJ dancefloors are more crowded than lindy hop dance floors (I've never done WCS so I can't comment on that). Whether this is because organisers know that lindy needs more space than MJ and so hire bigger venues/have lower limits on numbers of people, or just because fewer people dance lindy hop at the moment, I don't know.

straycat
17th-May-2011, 09:31 AM
Unlike Lindy, WCS, MJ isn't the ability to dance in a small space a key benefit of Balboa.

Might it be better to compare floorcraft teaching with other dances that work well in small spaces.
Perhaps, but I've seen quite a few Lindy workshops where the same pack-em-into-a-corner method was used to help teach floorcraft, so I'd say that the comparison is apt. Plus - while pure Balboa is very compact, comparatively few people use it for a whole dance. Most will break into Bal-swing for much of the time - which takes up a lot more space - hence the need for such floorcraft exercises.

David Bailey
17th-May-2011, 10:30 AM
Perhaps, but I've seen quite a few Lindy workshops where the same pack-em-into-a-corner method was used to help teach floorcraft.
I do that on occasion in Tango also.

It's a good way (in a class environment) of ensuring that people pay attention to their surroundings. You're also more likely to be considerate of your classmates than random strangers on the dancefloor.

Gerry
17th-May-2011, 12:51 PM
Less so than in the WCS world ?

The only times that I have seen Floorcraft being taught in a workshop / lesson is when I have voiced concerns over the dangers of bad floorcraft onm the WCS scene.

Personally I think it is something that needs to be brought up on a regular basis

bigdjiver
18th-May-2011, 01:22 PM
The only times that I have seen Floorcraft being taught in a workshop / lesson is when I have voiced concerns over the dangers of bad floorcraft onm the WCS scene.

Personally I think it is something that needs to be brought up on a regular basisWhen you were learning to walk who taught you not to bump into people / things?

OTOH from last weeks experience "Please don't quickstep at busy jive events" may be in order.

It is also a bit contradictory to warn against travelling moves and yet teach them. I think common sense and a few quiet words with those that don't have it may be the right approach.

David Bailey
18th-May-2011, 01:36 PM
When you were learning to walk who taught you not to bump into people / things?
Firstly, judging from the average battle to move around Tescos on a Saturday afternoon, the answer is "no-one" :rolleyes:

Secondly, it's slightly different when you have to guide your partner, who is usually travelling backwards herself.


It is also a bit contradictory to warn against travelling moves and yet teach them.
Market demand. It's why seducer workshops are overflowing, but you can't give away workshops on posture.


I think common sense and a few quiet words with those that don't have it may be the right approach.
The problem is, the people who don't have common sense will ignore a few quiet words. Because they don't have common sense.

The wider question is, "how to teach people who don't listen?"

And if anyone knows the answer, please let me know.

Gerry
18th-May-2011, 02:43 PM
When you were learning to walk who taught you not to bump into people / things?

It is also a bit contradictory to warn against travelling moves and yet teach them. I think common sense and a few quiet words with those that don't have it may be the right approach.

WCS is a linnear dance where the follower travels up and down a slot.

A lot of teachers like to teach lots of travelling moves, now this is all fine when you in a large ballroom and you have lots of space.

Where the WCS freestyles are becoming more popular, space is becoming a problem. We don't get taught that often or how to dance in a smaller space. Alot of the time you are cutting moves on the fly purely to stop an accident.

When I asked our teachers to teach a workshop on floorcraft it was totally diferent to how I thought it would be done.

Personally it something that needs to be taught on a regular basis.

I have just comeback from Swing Diego where you had almost 1500 dancers dancing WCS in one ball room. It scared the life out of me and I was very uncomfortable dancing at the busiest of times purely as I was uncomfortable with my floor craft. I made things work, was it great for my partner I am not sure.

On a MJ note, I used to dance MJ by leading with a very light hold almost fingure tips. I now hate this as I am totally unable to stop my follower from stepping back into somebody without the follower having a secure hand hold and good frame

David Bailey
18th-May-2011, 03:35 PM
When I asked our teachers to teach a workshop on floorcraft it was totally diferent to how I thought it would be done.
In what way?

Gerry
18th-May-2011, 05:03 PM
In what way?

I thought we would be taught how to lead all the moves with a much shorter connection. I think Paul taught some moves we could could use to cut the length of the slot.

Other teachers have mentioned in passing the use of leading alot of moves in close hold especially if your dancing in a bar without a proper dance floor

marcusj
23rd-May-2011, 12:18 PM
I'm sure there is plenty of good advice around keeping it closer and smaller, etc, but it's not rocket science, just open your eyes and have a look around, I can't believe the number of places I go where I am surrounded on all sides by leads not looking at what's going on around them at all, if you have one like that next to you you can give them extra attention but have 3 or 4 and it's almost impossible, well not impossible to keep you and your partner safe, but pretty much impossible to enjoy the dance as that's all you can think about !

marcusj
24th-May-2011, 12:12 PM
if you have one like that next to you you can give them extra attention but have 3 or 4 and it's almost impossible, well not impossible to keep you and your partner safe, but pretty much impossible to enjoy the dance as that's all you can think about !
In the Scorch Aftermath thread RobD calls it defensive dancing ... good terminology ... I agree no one enjoys defensive dancing

Steven666
24th-May-2011, 01:36 PM
I always amazes me when people think that others around them dance staionary. Just because a space was there 2 seconds ago, doesn't mean it's still there now...

David Bailey
24th-May-2011, 02:06 PM
I always amazes me when people think that others around them dance staionary. Just because a space was there 2 seconds ago, doesn't mean it's still there now...

In my experience, it's more difficult to dance MJ around a stationary couple than one moving around. Funny that, but it seems to be true.

meghann
24th-May-2011, 05:36 PM
I can't believe the number of places I go where I am surrounded on all sides by leads not looking at what's going on around them at all, if you have one like that next to you you can give them extra attention but have 3 or 4 and it's almost impossible, well not impossible to keep you and your partner safe, but pretty much impossible to enjoy the dance as that's all you can think about !

Is this really, in general, a very common problem? I've had my fair share of minor bumps over the years but at the venues I dance at but there are very very few people who show a lack of floorcraft. It's not something that's explicitly taught at my main venue (unless they cover it during the beginners' workshops, which I never did) so I'm surprised to hear that people don't always pick it up as well as they do here.

(And yes, the floor does get very crowded sometimes)

straycat
24th-May-2011, 05:50 PM
In my experience, it's more difficult to dance MJ around a stationary couple than one moving around. Funny that, but it seems to be true.

You don't really need to dance around them though - just don't collide with them. I've never seen anyone have a problem with pillars, for example...

geoff332
24th-May-2011, 07:53 PM
Is this really, in general, a very common problem?I generally find floor craft at many MJ events (from local freestyles to natioonal events) pretty atrocious. The biggest sin is poor awareness of dance space - knowing where you and your partner and everyone else around you is going to be at the end of a movement before you initiate it. In MJ, that's pretty hard, given that the dance often lacks a basic structure (by that I simply mean, in a lot of cases, you can't tell which line a dancer will step back on when they being a return).

there are very very few people who show a lack of floorcraft.I've seen a lot of people unnecessarily standing on a dancefloor, taking up the dance space of people actually dancing (or walking across it). If people can do that, then you can safely assume they have no concept whatsoever of floorcraft. I've seen this happen quite frequently.

It's not something that's explicitly taught at my main venue (unless they cover it during the beginners' workshops, which I never did) so I'm surprised to hear that people don't always pick it up as well as they do here.If it's not taught, then it's safe to assume it's not known. A lot of floorcraft is simple decency, which I think most (except for the standers) seem to have. The rest - in my experience - at MJ is learnt by experience. It generally works OK for most people, but it doesn't work for all people and it can be improved for everyone.

David Bailey
25th-May-2011, 09:53 AM
You don't really need to dance around them though - just don't collide with them. I've never seen anyone have a problem with pillars, for example...

Ah, but pillars don't suddenly materialise in the middle of the dance. If a couple literally stops dancing, they close off a whole section of possibilities for movement, which affects everyone dancing around them.

As I said, it's strange and illogical, but it does seem to be more difficult to dance next to stationary couples.

Gav
25th-May-2011, 02:59 PM
Ah, but pillars don't suddenly materialise in the middle of the dance. If a couple literally stops dancing, they close off a whole section of possibilities for movement, which affects everyone dancing around them.

As I said, it's strange and illogical, but it does seem to be more difficult to dance next to stationary couples.

I'd never thought of it that way around.
Usually, when we've frozen for a break or stopped for a little wiggle/shuffle and some mong throws their partner into us with all their might, I'm thinking F.FS! We weren't even bloody moving! :mad:

David Bailey
25th-May-2011, 03:42 PM
I'd never thought of it that way around.
Usually, when we've frozen for a break or stopped for a little wiggle/shuffle and some mong throws their partner into us with all their might, I'm thinking F.FS! We weren't even bloody moving! :mad:

I know, it's weird, isn't it? I get the same thing, I'm often just standing there doing AT-y things and I get bumped-into.

Basically, I think you're safer having some level of constant movement than standing still.

As I said, weird.

marcusj
25th-May-2011, 04:18 PM
It's plain common sense, it's much harder to hit a moving target !

straycat
25th-May-2011, 05:30 PM
It's plain common sense, it's much harder to hit a moving target !

On the other hand, it's much easier to dodge a stationary bullet.

straycat
25th-May-2011, 09:19 PM
Ah, but pillars don't suddenly materialise in the middle of the dance. If a couple literally stops dancing, they close off a whole section of possibilities for movement, which affects everyone dancing around them.

I suppose I see it a little differently - dancing a lot of Lindy and blues, I'm used to stationary dancers, and I'm used to dancers hurtling across the floor at warp speeds. You learn to see dancers, see where they are, and estimate what they're doing next. Which isn't that hard for a stationary couple.

The only time I've had a lot of collisions while doing slow bluesy stuff in close hold ... was at a venue where collisions seemed to happen no matter what - so I just assumed it was a local issue. After the third or fourth time when someone collided with us while a) we were stationary, and b) they were walking back from the bar carrying drinks ... we gave up and left. Apart from that one occasion, I can't recall it ever being a problem.

David Bailey
26th-May-2011, 10:04 AM
I suppose I see it a little differently - dancing a lot of Lindy and blues, I'm used to stationary dancers, and I'm used to dancers hurtling across the floor at warp speeds. You learn to see dancers, see where they are, and estimate what they're doing next. Which isn't that hard for a stationary couple.
Floorcraft skills are different in different dance forms. Most of the MJ floorcraft I had learnt was useless in AT, because AT is progressive and MJ is not.

MJ floorcraft is something like "intelligent Brownian motion", AT floorcraft is more like "motorway driving in heavy traffic".

Lost Leader
26th-May-2011, 10:20 AM
MJ floorcraft is something like "intelligent Brownian motion", AT floorcraft is more like "motorway driving in heavy traffic".


So MJ is the bastard son of something like E=MC squared whereas AT is simply AT=M6 on a Friday afternoon.

David Bailey
26th-May-2011, 10:54 AM
So MJ is the bastard son of something like E=MC squared whereas AT is simply AT=M6 on a Friday afternoon.

Sometimes it can feel like it... For what it's worth, salsa floorcraft is pretty much the same as MJ floorcraft.

I guess the main skill that always transfers over all dance forms is the awareness of the importance of good floorcraft in social dancing.

FirstMove
27th-May-2011, 02:10 AM
So what is on the syllabus of a Floorcraft workshop?


Don't let your partner touch anyone
Don't let anyone touch your partner
Don't touch anyone
Don't let anyone touch you

That takes about 30 second to understand. Then add the real life skills:


Emergency stops
How to explain to your partner that you just yanked their arm to avoid a collision, not to demonstrate your manliness.
Mind reading what other people will do next.
The correct time to leave between starting new threads about floorcraft on the Ceroc Scotland Forum

Everyone memorises the stopping distances for cars to pass their driving test, then drive well inside them thereafter. Most MJ is danced well inside the stopping distances of other couples. Collisions are inevitable, but damage can be minimised.

Twirly
27th-May-2011, 08:47 AM
So what is on the syllabus of a Floorcraft workshop?

You omitted:

5. Look around you at what other people around you are doing (which I think is the main problem, as people just don't);

6. Use the space that's on the dancefloor and don't dance too close to other couples if you can help it (sounds obvious, but I know leads who insist on dancing where other people are even when there's a nice big space somewhere else) and

7. When a collision does occur, apologise, even if you're not sure if it's your fault or not. (I have found myself knocking into someone, but can't tell whom and have just called out "sorry" hoping that whoever I bumped into will hear it - MJ sometimes moves so fast that the person you collided with has moved on before you know it)

The main problem is that floorcraft is really just common sense and courtesy. It's amazing how many dancers don't actually have any :banghead:

frodo
27th-May-2011, 10:44 PM
...
How to explain to your partner that you just yanked their arm to avoid a collision, not to demonstrate your manliness..

I rather wonder if the (arm) yanking does more damage than a potential collision.


...but damage can be minimised.

But I haven't asked many followers:-

Would you rather be yanked or risk a collision ?




7. When a collision does occur, apologise, even if you're not sure if it's your fault or not. (I have found myself knocking into someone, but can't tell whom and have just called out "sorry" hoping that whoever I bumped into will hear it - MJ sometimes moves so fast that the person you collided with has moved on before you know it)

If it might be your fault certainly apologise. But if it isn't your fault apologising may just encourage bad floorcraft.

cederic
27th-May-2011, 11:40 PM
If it might be your fault certainly apologise. But if it isn't your fault apologising may just encourage bad floorcraft.

I'm sorry, but I'm too English to do anything other than apologise for an accidental collision. I'll follow up with a polite and concerned query whether your elbow is ok, and hope that my head didn't bruise it too badly.

It's how we're wired; I prefer that to some other cultures.

meghann
28th-May-2011, 07:21 AM
I rather wonder if the (arm) yanking does more damage than a potential collision.



But I haven't asked many followers:-

Would you rather be yanked or risk a collision ?

Personally my arm would be "set up" to lead, meaning that unless it comes at a very odd angle I'm likely just to follow a "yank" rather than let it pull my arm out of its socket.

This is also going to depend on which part of the body is risking a collision, though. If two people are just going to walk backwards into each other that's unlikely to cause much if any damage. But if someone's about to kick your head, you need to be pulled out of the way if possible.



I'm sorry, but I'm too English to do anything other than apologise for an accidental collision. I'll follow up with a polite and concerned query whether your elbow is ok, and hope that my head didn't bruise it too badly.

It's how we're wired; I prefer that to some other cultures.

Yup, I'll apologise even if I know it wasn't my fault. Not necessarily helpful, I know, but it's hard-wired.

Twirly
28th-May-2011, 09:34 AM
I rather wonder if the (arm) yanking does more damage than a potential collision.

Having danced with FM, and been saved from collision by him, I know he doesn't mean a yank in the arm damaging sense that we often talk about. It's more a sudden, rapid change of direction so that you come forwards rather than fully extending backwards. If you're a light follow, you might be confused, but not hurt (if you're not a light follow, I don't know though). It's usually accompanied by a change of expression which indicates precisely what's just happened too :lol: :D


If it might be your fault certainly apologise. But if it isn't your fault apologising may just encourage bad floorcraft.

Why and how? I really don't see how that would be the case. A bump occurs (I'm talking about bodies, rather than someone standing on someone else's foot, when fault is usually with the standee) and it could be either lead's fault - it's a split second thing, no time to analyse. So show good manners, and apologise. Often it's no-one's actual fault, just one of those things.

Yliander
28th-May-2011, 01:56 PM
I'm sure there is plenty of good advice around keeping it closer and smaller, etc, but it's not rocket science, just open your eyes and have a look around, I can't believe the number of places I go where I am surrounded on all sides by leads not looking at what's going on around them at all, if you have one like that next to you you can give them extra attention but have 3 or 4 and it's almost impossible, well not impossible to keep you and your partner safe, but pretty much impossible to enjoy the dance as that's all you can think about !

I think it is important for follows to be active in floorcraft - ie keeping an eye out over the leads shoulder and if there is incoming dancers as he is about to step back let him know - I ususallly do this by firming up my arms and not moving forward so his response is to stay in place rather than stepping back.

frodo
29th-May-2011, 09:20 PM
Having danced with FM, and been saved from collision by him, I know he doesn't mean a yank in the arm damaging sense that we often talk about.
Fair enough with FM may not have meant it literally. In that case it isn't really a dilemna.

But sometimes to be certain of avoiding a collision force rather than a signal may be needed.

It isn't a dilemna when close enough to move the ladies body directly.



Why and how? I really don't see how that would be the case
If it is just one of those things, the person most at fault is likely to see less need to modify their behaviour.

It is often far clearer to the lead where the fault lies.


To take the roads analogy sometimes fault isn't clear, but frequently it is.

Twirly
30th-May-2011, 08:24 PM
Went dancing on the boat this afternoon. Thanks to the cr@p weather, the dancefloor was even more crowded than usual as no-one was dancing outside. After a few tracks, an announcement was made asking people to watch out for others when they were dancing due to the overcrowding. First time I've ever heard that happen. Wish they would do it more often.

David Bailey
31st-May-2011, 09:58 AM
Went dancing on the boat this afternoon. Thanks to the cr@p weather, the dancefloor was even more crowded than usual as no-one was dancing outside. After a few tracks, an announcement was made asking people to watch out for others when they were dancing due to the overcrowding. First time I've ever heard that happen. Wish they would do it more often.
Ian does that regularly at Berko, both in announcements and in the emails.

Ghost
8th-June-2011, 02:07 AM
3. Mind reading what other people will do next.

Grab your favourite beverage, sit by the side of the floor and watch. Ceroc is based on a fairly limited basic vocab (look at Gadget's signature for more info). There's a limited number of things people will usually do from given points. Plus, a lot of Ceroc is very move-based. With a bit of observation, your subconcious can figure out what the leader is doing and where that means they and they're follower are going. You can react accordingly.

Also:
Learn to listen to your follower. A gentle press against your back means "don't go that way"

Know when to get out of Dodge. Sometimes I've just said to my partner, "Let's get out of here!" or "This is getting danerous, let's go over there". Hint the safest way to cross a dance floor is to dance. Don't just walk / run. Walk / run in a dancy / musical fashion. But also know when to call it quits. Getting hurt can ruin your night. Sometimes, it's just best to go home, or chat to friends by the side. If this keeps being the case, find another venue.

Don't tense up - collisions hurt a lot more when you're tense.

Don't fully extend joints. Either yours or hers, this leaves a bit more "give" for sudden changes of direction and makes hits easier to absorb.

Learn some moves that let you:
change direction
stay put
move away quickly

If you have to yank, do it along some kind of curve rather than a straight line

Learn how to dance at the side and keep the woman between you and the edge of the floor.

Incoming fire has right of way

People are much less likely to crash into you if they can see you're looking at them. Learn how to manuever / do moves that let you do this.

Close embrace tangoy moves or Blues moves give you the option of letting go of the woman and physically using your arms to (gently) ward off incoming loony tunes.

Slots may be more predictable, but circles are better for avoiding damage in my experience.

Frequently ask yourself "What's the most stupid thing the people around me could do next and what would I do?" ('cos soooner or later someone will do it)

Aggressively claiming space works, but is tiring and rapidly takes the fun out of dancing.

There's nothing wrong with talking to your partner "Stop!" "Duck!" etc

Have a look at the LearningTango and Jivetango sites - a lot of the floorcraft articles are applicable. I think I wrote some stuff on here about it way back in the day too. Maybe search under threads I started or something.

But bottom line, it's not about what should be, it's about what is. And too many people stay on floors and go to venues where they know they're going to get hurt and despite having the option to walk away, they don't take it. I speak as someone with waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much experience of dancing around people with bad floorcraft.

NZ Monkey
12th-June-2011, 10:36 PM
Aggressively claiming space works, but is tiring and rapidly takes the fun out of dancing.
That's just a sign that you're not doing it right :devil:

meghann
13th-June-2011, 07:12 AM
Frequently ask yourself "What's the most stupid thing the people around me could do next and what would I do?" ('cos soooner or later someone will do it)

Interesting; that's a key bit of advice for staying alive when cycling, too.

Gerry
14th-June-2011, 12:16 PM
I rather wonder if the (arm) yanking does more damage than a potential collision.



But I haven't asked many followers:-

Would you rather be yanked or risk a collision ?





If it might be your fault certainly apologise. But if it isn't your fault apologising may just encourage bad floorcraft.

At Hemsby, Lisa who is a teacher and a rather small lady had her arm yanked so badly that it damaged her shoulder and she was unable to dance the whole weekend.

Yanking is a no no:banghead: :doh:

daveb9000
14th-June-2011, 01:03 PM
I find most of my regular partners will respond to tension in my arm accompanied with tightening of my hand hold (not to mention the wide-eyes looking over their shoulder!). With non-regular partners, I move to get my arm between them and the potential collider, and pull them away from the collision, which if can't be prevented, at least my arm takes the brunt of it, not my partner.

David Bailey
14th-June-2011, 02:00 PM
I find most of my regular partners will respond to tension in my arm accompanied with tightening of my hand hold (not to mention the wide-eyes looking over their shoulder!).
To be fair, that could be just you. :na:

On the tension, yanking thing, it seems like "neck strain" is quite common for followers - I've noticed it a lot for followers in AT. So I always start my warmup bit by rolling the shoulders and getting people to relax, whilst emphasizing how important it is not to be tense (especially in the "outer" arm).

The problem is, if you're trying to work on several things at once, "relaxing" is somewhat tricky. Maybe I should play some chillout music :grin: