Teaching. Bad Dancers/Great Teachers vs. Great Dancers/Bad Teachers

[Andy McGregor]

Moved from "Building on My Dance Ability"
Lastly you can be a great dancer but it doesn't always mean that you have the ability to pass on your knowledge to someone that is a talent in its own right

Gerry is right in this. The two talents are unrelated.

There's 2 types of bad dance teacher who we've identified.

1. Champions who can't teach because they have no communication skills or teaching ability.

2. Teachers with great communication skills who can't dance.

I can still remember the whole tribe of dancers in the New Forest area who danced MJ on the 2. They must have been taught by someone. And that teaching must have been very effective because it was impossible to get them to dance on the 1.

We seem more inclined to discuss Group 1, the champions who can't teach. They're easily identified because they wear a shiny medal. But what about Group 2, people who'd get knocked out in the first round of a competition due to their poor dancing but teach every week? Should they be teaching at all? I think not. But who is going to stop them? And how is a new dance student going to be able to work out who they are as they have no frame of reference - it's a Catch 22, they need to be taught to dance before they can judge who should be teaching them to dance.

I'm not sure about this. Although there are obvious targets for people who shouldn't be teaching, this is generally down to the fact that they can't teach! Whether or not you are any good at competition dancing is (IMHO) totally irrelevant. There was a chap I saw teach as LeJive years ago in the N \West. Massively unimpressive to watch dance but on several occasions I saw him successfully teach routines I would probably have failed with.I think we can all find single examples like this. Let's not argue from the particular to the general. There is no reason why an unimpressive dancer shouldn't be an effective teacher. If their dance basics are sound and they're a good communicator they will be an effective teacher - even if they can't sell their moves to an audience like a competition dancer.

However, I've seen a scary number of MJ teachers who don't know the basics of dance such as frame or spinning. Some don't even know the basics of musical timing.

Please note, I'm not having a go at Ceroc. Far from it! All the Ceroc teachers I've seen can dance well and teach effectively. I think it's down to the strict selection process and extensive training. Compare this to some guy who thinks he can dance who simply books a hall, buys a microphone and puts some ads in the paper - he says he's a dance teacher and looks just like any other dance teacher, especially to a total novice. How is the new student going to know the difference?

What can be done about this situation?

Suggestions please.

[DavidY]

There is no reason why an unimpressive dancer shouldn't be an effective teacher. If their dance basics are sound and they're a good communicator they will be an effective teacher - even if they can't sell their moves to an audience like a competition dancer.I would argue that an unimpressive dancer (who doesn't win competitions) can still be a good dancer because he or she still feels fabulous to dance with; but it's only their partner who knows it at that moment. :wink:

(Sorry I realise this doesn't answer your question! :blush:)

[philsmove]

I don’t think it matters
It’s not a matter of life and death ( at least not for most people )
The main reason people go to dance classes is to have a fun night out
Provided the teacher provides that, they go back, if not, they ether give, up or try a different class
It is sad, some people never go back due to a rubbish teacher but I’d rather have that than any sort of regulation
Most people I have introduced to MJ try different classes, most find out LeRoc and Ceroc are different names for the same dance and most try both

[Gav]

What can be done about this situation?

Suggestions please.

Send a select group of forumites with a gun to secretly observe teachers. :D

[David Bailey]

There is no reason why an unimpressive dancer shouldn't be an effective teacher. If their dance basics are sound and they're a good communicator they will be an effective teacher - even if they can't sell their moves to an audience like a competition dancer.
Generally I'd agree with this - but a certain minimum level of dance ability is required, because you need to be able to demonstrate how movements should look. Plus, the value of "unimpressive" varies from location to location...


However, I've seen a scary number of MJ teachers who don't know the basics of dance such as frame or spinning. Some don't even know the basics of musical timing.
Relax, it's much worse than you think. Most teachers - of any dance style - don't know the basics of teaching. (or, technically, training).


Please note, I'm not having a go at Ceroc. Far from it! All the Ceroc teachers I've seen can dance well and teach effectively. I think it's down to the strict selection process and extensive training.
Agreed. CTA training seems to be effective, and professional, as far as it goes.


What can be done about this situation?

Suggestions please.
Professionalism.

[Andy McGregor]

Generally I'd agree with this - but a certain minimum level of dance ability is required, because you need to be able to demonstrate how movements should look. Plus, the value of "unimpressive" varies from location to location....'Required' by who?

And that is the problem IMHO. The beginner doesn't 'require' anything but someone who says they are a dance teacher.

I like the ideas of forumites with a gun. I did hear there was a way that tramps used to secretly mark houses where they'd get a good reception. Perhaps we could develop some secret mark for dance venues. Some sort of graffiti that says 'Forumite Approved' or the reverse. Possibly a star rating like hotels. One star is still a star, but you wouldn't drink the water or expect the sheets to be clean.

[cederic]

One regular teacher I like doesn't dance competitively. He doesn't think he's anywhere near good enough to compete in the 'pro' categories, and certainly he doesn't have a flamboyant or showy style.

He does however teach very good technique. He shows you, tells you, tells you why, demonstrates how/why not and all the while is giving you the chance to practice, improve and learn.

He knows how to teach, enjoys teaching, and is definitely good enough to show the moves he teaches (he's a very very smooth lead when you watch him - probably due to other dance styles he also teaches).

So dancing competitively isn't necessary, unless you want to learn how to do better in competition (and surely that's coaching, not teaching, which is a whole other discussion?)


On the whole though I think the quality of teaching is at worse adequate and is usually very good (or better). I suspect it's harder for more experienced dancers to find teachers good enough to teach them anything particularly new, but that isn't necessarily a reflection on the teacher :)

There's only one venue I've been to where the teaching has been what I'd call 'bad'. In fact, one teacher there was frankly atrocious. It's also a non-profit co-operative dance club and that teacher was just a random member that knew a move everyone else wanted to learn. So we all did our best to do what he said, ended up giggling at each other then helped each other learn it. That "everyone has a go" approach means the quality of teaching at that venue ranges from the poor to the excellent, but the quality of the dancers is high, it's always a fun evening and the community element keeps me going back. Haven't dared try any teaching myself yet though...

[Lory]

I would argue that an unimpressive dancer (who doesn't win competitions) can still be a good dancer because he or she still feels fabulous to dance with; but it's only their partner who knows it at that moment. :wink:

(Sorry I realise this doesn't answer your question! :blush:)I'd go one step further and say.. They know how to make their 'partner' feel wonderful :drool:

[NZ Monkey]

'Required' by who?

And that is the problem IMHO. The beginner doesn't 'require' anything but someone who says they are a dance teacher.
In order to be a great dance teacher they need to have (or at least used to have) a reasonable level of dance ability too as well as teaching skills obviously.

In other words, the worlds best teacher won't be able to help you without knowing something about the subject matter first. I may be an amazing WCS teacher*, but that doesn't mean you should come to me if you want to learn to speak Spanish.

If you're thinking about some sort of accrediting body then I'm not sure it's the way to go. It can work, and does quite well, but unless the body is well known outside the dance community it isn't going to help the novice with no dance experience of their own tell if their teacher is any good.

The CTA might be awesome, but if you're not a MJ enthusiast it's just another three letter acronym. The Australian Jujutsu Federation might be a weak social association with an annual barbeque, or a powerhouse of quality control that provides high level learning across the entire South Pacific. You wouldn't know which unless you were not only a member but also attended their events though.

* I'm not, but that's besides the point right now :tears:

[Andy McGregor]

If you're thinking about some sort of accrediting body then I'm not sure it's the way to go. It can work, and does quite well, but unless the body is well known outside the dance community it isn't going to help the novice with no dance experience of their own tell if their teacher is any good.I'm not thinking about anything like an accrediting body. Who'd run it and how would it be funded? And how would you promote it to non-dancers so it made a difference.

Even if there were an accrediting body and everyone knew it existed, how many people would ask for proof of membership? People don't even check their dance teacher is insured, let alone qualified!

As I said, I'm not thinking about anything, just musing. It would be fantastic if the combined brains of the Forum could come up with a great idea for me to promote my classes as being better than the classes down the road where the teacher is a poor dancer with little dance knowledge. I don't think the Forum is going to come up with something brilliant. But there's no harm in asking.

[philsmove]

It would be fantastic if the combined brains of the Forum could come up with a great idea for me to promote my classes as being better than the classes down the road .

Now that's a completely different question:doh:

Some more details please

Does he teach on the same night ?

Does he play similar music?

Is his classes, structure and times the same as yours

Is the venue similar?

Is parking similar?

Is he part of Big franchise :whistle:

[David Bailey]

'Required' by who?
By me :)

I certainly don't expect a dance teacher to be a competition winner. If only because I don't want to learn how to win competitions, I want to learn how to dance socially.

And I think there's far too much emphasis placed on the dance ability of a teacher, and far too little emphasis (i.e. none) on the teaching ability.

But I think it's reasonable to expect a dance teacher to be able to competently display the movements they're trying to teach, to accompany their descriptions and guidance. If I'm trying to teach how to lead an ocho, I need to be able to competently lead it myself.

[geoff332]

A few thoughts...

Firstly, a teacher needs to have a good knowledge of what they're teaching. This isn't (necessarily) the same as being good at doing it - but the two will be related (and winning competitions is a different skill from being a good dancer - also related, but not identical).

Secondly, a teacher may need to provide an exemplar of what they are teaching. This is certainly true in dancing, where "monkey see, monkey do" is the dominant mode of learning. This extends to the teacher dancing with people, where they have to dance well with people to help them get the feel of the move.

Thirdly, a teacher needs to articulate what you should be doing. You can't see everything you need to know about dancing (for example, you can't easily see tension or frame unless you already know what they are). So the teacher needs to explain this to people.

Fourthly, a teacher needs to understand how their 'class' learn. This refers to both how people learn within a class and the progressive learning over time. My feeling is the former is done well by Ceroc, but the latter comes down to the individual teacher (and it's this that will actually set the tone for a venue).

Fifthly, a teacher needs to be good at communicating and engaging. The dominant mode of teaching for modern jive seems to be to engage via humour (successfully or otherwise). Often self-deprecating... but there are a few other engagement strategies out there.

Finally, there is a real difference between dance teaching and coaching. One on one teaching is more of the latter, where the teacher focuses on the individual and their learning needs; class teaching is the former, where the teacher is trying to teach something to a large group at once (regardless of whether or not they already (think they) know it).

Professionalism.
Most professions are defined by a few features (I'm thinking lawyers, accountants, teachers, engineers, doctors, builders, pumbers, nurses etc):
Significant entry level training - often a university degree or some other form of education, which is founded on some broadly agreed body of knowledge or practice
Formal certification - typically by a national body (in many cases, there is a legislative requirement for this) - indicating their competence
On-going training and development
Quality control for certified practioners (and the ability to censure and deregister)
Codified practices usually covering both the core practice and the mode of practice (eg ethical standards)I could go on - this list was off the top of my head, although it's remarkably similar to the more comprehensive list on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession#Characteristics_of_a_profession). Their definition is that a profession is a vocation based on specialised educational training; I'd change educational training to a 'codified body of knowledge' (you acquire that knowledge through training - so it's a fairly small difference).

CTA meets most of these criteria. The problem is it's not universal: it's something established by a company to serve their own commercial interests. It does provide Ceroc with a competitive advantage over other MJ providers (and, for that reason, I can't see it changing).

The other major issue is that MJ is not well codified. There is not a codified body of knowledge that represents 'proper' MJ (if you don't believe me, start a thread asking people to define MJ; I suspect you might get more answers than answerers). Ceroc certainly don't provide this in any meaningful way (although it is, to a larger extent than is often realised, implied). If MJ is not codified, then it's impossible to provide the sort of comprehensive education and on-going training that define a profession.

This all may sound horribly esoteric, but if you do not establish standards of what MJ is, you can't establish standards on whether it is being taught well or not. And if you can't establish standards on whether it's being taught well or not, you can't really say that teacher A is good and teacher B is bad.

[Andy McGregor]

Now that's a completely different question:doh:

Some more details please

Does he teach on the same night ?

Does he play similar music?

Is his classes, structure and times the same as yours

Is the venue similar?

Is parking similar?

Is he part of Big franchise :whistle:I was talking in general.

However, you've got me thinking, there is a class down the road from one of my nights where I can mostly answer 'yes' to the above questions - our venue is bigger, our car park is bigger, they play R&R that's a bit fast, their venue has a bar. In balance, we have a bigger venue and, I think, much better teaching, they have a bar and shorter lessons - I keep hearing the best thing about his lessons is that they're short!

Some time ago one of my newsletters pointed out the positive aspects of our classes - I didn't even use hanging comparatives like better and best, just said I was qualified, national medallist, taught at weekenders, insured, etc. I had a phone call from one of my own crew saying I was being unfair to this other teacher as he had none of the things I was claiming.

And, to add insult to injury, I bumped into the teacher in Tesco and the wrongly accused me of starting a rumour about him splitting up with his girlfriend - this was an accusation with the guy standing over me threateningly and saying the line "don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry". The odd thing is that I had heard the rumour and subsequently found out it was true :confused: For readers who don't know me, I'm the perfect height for a male dancer, 5' 7" - this is not a good height when someone is looming over you - the box of Cornflakes I was holding offered no defence - I couldn't even stand on the so I could look this guy in the eye :tears:

My Jewish friend Lynda says this guy is the kind Nebbish (I think that was the word) who people feel sorry for - so I came across as a bully in my newletter, even though all I did was say how good I was in my marketing materials.

This puts me in a difficult situation. I'm a bully if we say how good we are and I'm nothing if I say nothing. As one of my friends says, it's lose-lose.

... ahh, it's cleansing to vent a bit :whistle:

But suggestions for a solution would be nice too :flower:

[Andy McGregor]

The other major issue is that MJ is not well codified. There is not a codified body of knowledge that represents 'proper' MJ (if you don't believe me, start a thread asking people to define MJ; I suspect you might get more answers than answerers).

- snip -

This all may sound horribly esoteric, but if you do not establish standards of what MJ is, you can't establish standards on whether it is being taught well or not. And if you can't establish standards on whether it's being taught well or not, you can't really say that teacher A is good and teacher B is bad.Fabulous post :worthy:

This is a path or reasoning I trod some time ago. Although not with such eloquence. And treading that path was a complete waste of time and energy.

Like Geoff, I identified the start point to this as establishing standards and codifying MJ. I joined the national committee of the LeRoc Federation with this intent. I had two frustrating years of trying to get something written down and agreed which describes the beginners moves. I couldn't get any agreement - in fact, I couldn't even get disagreement :banghead:

[djtrev]

By me :)

I certainly don't expect a dance teacher to be a competition winner. If only because I don't want to learn how to win competitions, I want to learn how to dance socially.

And I think there's far too much emphasis placed on the dance ability of a teacher, and far too little emphasis (i.e. none) on the teaching ability.

But I think it's reasonable to expect a dance teacher to be able to competently display the movements they're trying to teach, to accompany their descriptions and guidance. If I'm trying to teach how to lead an ocho, I need to be able to competently lead it myself.

:yeah:

I dont think that I have encountered a single teacher who hasnt been able to display,describe and lead a move that they were teaching but there are certainly the odd one who'se style of teaching I didnt particularly enjoy.It seems to me that Ceroc are so thorough in the way they teach their teachers that I would be very surprised to hear an alternative viewpoint from any competent dancer.
I would class myself as a competent dancer.I best qualify that before I continue.
I have good rhythm,can pick up the tempo of a track and I can execute the moves to a reasonable standard but I am not the dancer that I would like to be.I haven't the desire,dedication,determination,time or inclination to be that dancer;in other words I am a social dancer.My biggest enemy on the dancefloor is me,or to be more precise my memory because having been shown move after move,week in week out,my brain turns to blancmange at that crucial moment when I want to remember the move that was taught last week.As for frame and tension-of course they are mentioned-but,and I feel sure I speak for 90% of the customers,it's in one ear and out the other.
Sorry.Back to the point I was about to make.
I personally dont think it is a teacher problem.I think the problem lies almost squarely on the dancer.You can teach all the moves you like but if the dancer has no rhythm or cant pick up the tempo of a track you are on loser before you start.I have long held the opinion that at the start of each beginner lesson there is some time spent on timing/tempo/beat,call it what you will.

[geoff332]

Like Geoff, I identified the start point to this as establishing standards and codifying MJ. I joined the national committee of the LeRoc Federation with this intent. I had two frustrating years of trying to get something written down and agreed which describes the beginners moves. I couldn't get any agreement - in fact, I couldn't even get disagreement :banghead:I'm not suggesting it'll ever happen - but if you want professional, that's what it looks like.

The reason it's unlikely to happen is ceroc. Without their involvement, professionalisation of MJ is unlikely to get off the ground. Ceroc have a vested interest in maintaining the competitive advantage they enjoy from exclusively offering the CTA, which I think would be a great starting point. I can't see them sacrificing that advantage and loosing control of their teaching standards for the 'greater good' - which would be very uncertain even under ideal circumstances. (I'm not saying ceroc should do this: their commercial advantage hasn't just happened - they invested heavily in getting the CTA to it's current state).

I'm also not convinced that some of the better independents and ceroc could 'play nice' enough to make it work. I'm not trying to reopen old wounds and I'm certainly not laying blame on anyone, but there are some rather tense relationships that would get in the way.

If it's any solace, the old professions (medicine, law, divinity) took many years to professionalise. By many, I mean thousands. (I'm not sure about the oldest profession... that may not actually be a profession - more a hobby for which you get paid).

[philsmove]

- I keep hearing the best thing about his lessons is that they're short!

:


The main reason people go to dance classes is to have a fun night out


So a short lesson and a bar might be a big attraction

OK, a lot dancers don't drink but a bar does help the atmosphere and can attract the "other half" to at least come along

Andy, people go to classes for lots of different reasons

The most popular class in my area, has short lessons and a bar

A complaint I hear about other classes is, the lessons are too long and there is not enough dancing

I have never heard anyone say they go to a class because the teacher has such and such qualification. They do go because a teacher is "fun"

People do go workshops based on a teachers reputation and winning competitions does help a teachers reputation

[David Bailey]

ICeroc have a vested interest in maintaining the competitive advantage they enjoy from exclusively offering the CTA, which I think would be a great starting point. I can't see them sacrificing that advantage and loosing control of their teaching standards for the 'greater good' - which would be very uncertain even under ideal circumstances. (I'm not saying ceroc should do this: their commercial advantage hasn't just happened - they invested heavily in getting the CTA to it's current state).
Well, it'd effectively be turning their own proprietory IP into "open-source", wouldn't it?

Personally, I reckon they could do well out of it - they could franchise their teaching methods out to non-Ceroc organisers as affiliates, and they could almost turn themselves into a wider licensing, auditing and certification organisation, rather than a single locked-in company. "OffDance" even :)

Of course, the Ceroc HQ response might be that they do this already, and that any MJ organiser can do this already, by applying to become a Ceroc franchisee. But that's not the same as publishing an open set of standards.


(I'm not sure about the oldest profession... that may not actually be a profession - more a hobby for which you get paid).
Research may be required. :wink:

[jim]

Fabulous post :worthy:

This is a path or reasoning I trod some time ago. Although not with such eloquence. And treading that path was a complete waste of time and energy.

Like Geoff, I identified the start point to this as establishing standards and codifying MJ. I joined the national committee of the LeRoc Federation with this intent. I had two frustrating years of trying to get something written down and agreed which describes the beginners moves. I couldn't get any agreement - in fact, I couldn't even get disagreement :banghead:

I'm interested in this idea. I think I could establish basic standards to the way i'm personally dancing at the moment. But no doubt they wouldn't be the same standards someone else would apply to their Mj.

[Andy McGregor]

I'm interested in this idea. I think I could establish basic standards to the way i'm personally dancing at the moment. But no doubt they wouldn't be the same standards someone else would apply to their Mj.I think that standards change over time. And there's no reason why a standards body can't change. Consider minimum safety standards: there's a huge difference nowadays compared to 50 years ago. But those people half a century ago did their best at the time. They didn't say, "let's not bother until standards improve", they set the standard. And then they raised standards over time. The advantage of setting a standard is that you can measure performance against that standard.

What I'd love to see happen in MJ at large is a setting of minimum standards. In my experience this is going to be difficult. I have now come to the conclusion that the only way to do this is to start an organisation from scratch. Old organisations have a history that they can't shake off and are resistant to change, even if they recognise the need for change.

[David Bailey]

I think that standards change over time. And there's no reason why a standards body can't change. Consider minimum safety standards: there's a huge difference nowadays compared to 50 years ago. But those people half a century ago did their best at the time. They didn't say, "let's not bother until standards improve", they set the standard. And then they raised standards over time. The advantage of setting a standard is that you can measure performance against that standard.
Yes - I'd go further and say that the problem is not defining standards, the problem is in defining an open, community-wide process to define (and communicate, maintain, implement, test and update) the standards.

Without such a process, the actual standards are irrelevant. I could sit down tomorrow and define "DavidJive" standards, they'd be just as "valid" as Ceroc standards, they'd just have less adherents.

Everyone wants to define standards, no-one wants to define process.

So I'm not holding my breath.

[Andy McGregor]

So I'm not holding my breath.Go on, you know you want to.

I think that an independent standards body could be set up for MJ. Something like a trade association where members agree to maintain certain standards. You'd need mystery shoppers just like restaurants and hotels to ensure standards are maintained. All do-able, but who'd do it?

[Gerry]

Go on, you know you want to.

I think that an independent standards body could be set up for MJ. Something like a trade association where members agree to maintain certain standards. You'd need mystery shoppers just like restaurants and hotels to ensure standards are maintained. All do-able, but who'd do it?

Surely these mystery people would need to be teachers to be able to make a decision on the class and the ability of the teacher to show the moves and pass on the correct information.

I think Mike Ellard regularly travels the country and goes to each venue to see how things are progressing

[Andy McGregor]

Surely these mystery people would need to be teachers to be able to make a decision on the class and the ability of the teacher to show the moves and pass on the correct information.Yes they would need to be teachers - and very experienced teachers too. The difficulty is that professional dance teachers expect to get paid.

Any trade body which set standards would need to charge venue operators enough to pay teachers to be mystery shoppers. Why would that venue operator pay to join unless they could see a positive effect from their membership?


I think Mike Ellard regularly travels the country and goes to each venue to see how things are progressingThe problem is that Mike Ellard can't really be a mystery shopper and won't see the venue on an average night as a consequence. He'd have to be in disguise and pay to come in to ensure that people behaved normally - now I think about it, we did have a woman turn up who looked a bit like Mr Ellard :whistle:

[philsmove]

The problem is that Mike Ellard can't really be a mystery shopper and won't see the venue on an average night as a consequence. He'd have to be in disguise and pay to come in to ensure that people behaved normally :

He turned up at two of my local venues, clearly the teachers knew who he was, but none of us, he joined in the lesson and spent most of the evening talking and dancing

The only difference to a standard night was the class started on time:clap: , and has continued to to do so ever since:clap:

I don't think a poor teacher ,is suddenly going to be a good one, just because Mike is there

[Lynn]

He turned up at two of my local venues, clearly the teachers knew who he was, but none of us, he joined in the lesson and spent most of the evening talking and dancing He turned up at one of our venues and most of the dancers didn't know who he was - as far as they were concerned he was just another visiting dancer. So he did get a reasonably representative night, even some of the taxis didn't know who he was.

I don't think a poor teacher ,is suddenly going to be a good one, just because Mike is therePossibly the opposite - knowing Mike or similar is in the class would probably make the teacher a bit nervous and they mightn't teach as well as normal.

[Andy McGregor]

I don't think a poor teacher ,is suddenly going to be a good one, just because Mike is thereThis isn't the danger. The danger is that a good teacher will become a nervous teacher and perform worse than usual because Mr Ellard is there. This means that customers might be short-changed - they are getting a lesser performance from a nervous teacher because of an internal company process.

Edit - I wrote this before reading Lynn's post. We think so much alike :flower:

[Rocky]

At the end of the day many dancers don't really care... they should of course, but generally there are enough people out there who wouldn't know what a good venue, teacher or music set look like, to sustain any number of people who want to set themselves up as dance teachers.

What DOES matter is having a good time, meeting people and doing something more active than sitting on your backside at home in front of the TV. So if a night offers that they're not going to care too much about the quality of teaching.

That's not to say that it is still extremley irritating to teachers who apply high standards to what they do and to organizers who run nights to the best of their ability.

An example of what I find irritating is of a new (probably one off event) down on the South Coast at a prestigious and unusual venue. There's no classes, so it's just a freestyle and it's touted as having multiple rooms, and is actually an expensive night out.

All well and good, but the floors are pretty awful overall (and I know 'cos I've been there..) the dance spaces are very small compared to the pictures actually shown, there's no flow between the rooms as it's quite difficult to get between them, and get this.. it's likely (unless you want to walk a fair distance) to cost punters an additional £8 to park for the duration of the event! Of course there's no mention of any of that in the promo stuff.

But people will go and no doubt some of them will rave about it despite IMO that they have actually been ripped off.

I've just learned that (apart from this little rant) it's best not to worry about what other people are doing and just to concentrate on doing the best job you can - at least then you can live with yourself even if you are broke! :waycool:

[rtwwpad]

Mr ford summed it up best over a century ago. If I'd listened to my customers I would have given them a faster horse

[Andy McGregor]

An example of what I find irritating is of a new (probably one off event) down on the South Coast at a prestigious and unusual venue. There's no classes, so it's just a freestyle and it's touted as having multiple rooms, and is actually an expensive night out.
When I started reading this I wondered if Rocky was having a dig at me as I'm on the South Coast. On reading further it didn't match anything I'm doing so I took a deep breath and read further.

Rocky does make a lot of sense - annoyingly :wink:

I don't know what event he's talking about - the 'South Coast' is very long.

I think Rocky is pointing out a situation we all endure. Some of us make realistic claims about our products and try not to overclaim. We do this because we want people to come back so we have a sustainable business in the long term. We don't want them to be disappointed when they come to our events and see that the 3 rooms are actually sheds. On the other hand, you can say what you like about a one-off event so long as you don't lie.

[DavidY]

You'd need mystery shoppers just like restaurants and hotels to ensure standards are maintained. All do-able, but who'd do it?When I was taxiing (for Ceroc), we were told that mystery shoppers might come and visit. This was a few years ago now though.

I also found an email, from around that time, from my local franchise with recruitment opportunities including:

Mystery Shoppers

The Role
In this paid role you will have the opportunity to visit the Ceroc venues in your locality (as a customer) and then evaluate your experience providing us with feedback about the night.

Requirements
• We are particularly interested in applications from (new)er members of Ceroc
• Must possess a full driving license
• Good communication skills (written and oral)So the idea was being actively pursued.

I don't know whether it took off or not, or whether it's still going on...

[jim]

Slightly off topic but I'm curious about how people (or ceroc) arrange their lessons or their teaching.

Do you sit, down create a list of beginners techniques and intermediate technique. Then select moves to show thoes techniques.

Or do you start with core moves then exstract technique from them.

what are the techniques you want to teach? lead-follow, frame, compression(push), suspension(pull), spotting, shaping......

Do you just have a list of beginners and intermediate moves?

Do you just have beginners list and tailor the rest to the class?

Do your all your moves have scripts, just some, are they just decribeded, are only some of them described?


So how do you arrange your lessons. And in another way I also think .... how do you arranged your dance?

[meghann]

I'm currently studying information & knowledge management and the issue of 'managing' the kind of tacit (non-codified, internal) knowledge embodied by dancing is something I've thought about a lot. So, call me a geek but this conversation is very interesting to me :D


Secondly, a teacher may need to provide an exemplar of what they are teaching. This is certainly true in dancing, where "monkey see, monkey do" is the dominant mode of learning. This extends to the teacher dancing with people, where they have to dance well with people to help them get the feel of the move.

Thirdly, a teacher needs to articulate what you should be doing. You can't see everything you need to know about dancing (for example, you can't easily see tension or frame unless you already know what they are). So the teacher needs to explain this to people.

Fourthly, a teacher needs to understand how their 'class' learn. This refers to both how people learn within a class and the progressive learning over time. My feeling is the former is done well by Ceroc, but the latter comes down to the individual teacher (and it's this that will actually set the tone for a venue).

I recall reading something about the theory of learning styles. One way of classifying the ways different people learn is visual, auditory, reading/writing (doesn't really apply to dance) and kinaesthetic/tactile. As has already been said, teachers need to be able to provide the right visual and auditory cues for learning. But that's doesn't really help the people, myself included, who primarily learn kinaesthetically.

So the way I learn during classes is to wait until I'm with someone who is a visual/auditory learner, and then learn it by following them.

Which leads me on to....


Yes - I'd go further and say that the problem is not defining standards, the problem is in defining an open, community-wide process to define (and communicate, maintain, implement, test and update) the standards.

One of the ways in which knowledge is managed is through what's called communities of practice. These are basically groups of people with a common interest (be it work, hobby etc.) and who also have a mutual interest in sharing what they know about it. I learn far more by dancing socially than I do in classes. Mostly by making a fool of myself, but I don't like to take dancing too seriously :D

A possible conclusion might be that the best thing that can be done to improve learning MJ (note learning, rather than teaching) is to keep on dancing with beginners, however good you are. Some people are really good at this but others really aren't...and that's my pet peeve about the jive community :grin:

</academic geekery>

[David Bailey]

I recall reading something about the theory of learning styles. One way of classifying the ways different people learn is visual, auditory, reading/writing (doesn't really apply to dance) and kinaesthetic/tactile. As has already been said, teachers need to be able to provide the right visual and auditory cues for learning. But that's doesn't really help the people, myself included, who primarily learn kinaesthetically.
Yes, I'm familiar with the theory.

But in my experience "I learn kinaesthetically" is too often used an excuse for "I can't be bothered to actually learn". It's on the same order of thing as people who denigrate technique and discipline because it "hampers their creativity". Which, again, is usually a front for "I can't be bothered".


So the way I learn during classes is to wait until I'm with someone who is a visual/auditory learner, and then learn it by following them.
How do you learn it then? Sounds like you're simply memorising a sequence of movements... that's not the same as learning to follow.


I learn far more by dancing socially than I do in classes.
Well, there's a good chance that's simply because the classes are rubbish.


A possible conclusion might be that the best thing that can be done to improve learning MJ (note learning, rather than teaching) is to keep on dancing with beginners, however good you are. Some people are really good at this but others really aren't...and that's my pet peeve about the jive community :grin:
The more you dance with beginners, the better you get at dancing with beginners. That's not quite the same as "the better you get at dancing", however.

Too much dancing with beginners and you tend to find that you're less able to dance with people at other levels - this is a typical thing that happens with some taxi dancers.

[meghann]

How do you learn it then? Sounds like you're simply memorising a sequence of movements... that's not the same as learning to follow.

Good point - now that I think about it, it's backleading that I learn to do memorising the movements (not that I make a habit of backleading). When I do classes as a leader I mostly figure it out by knowing where the follower is meant to be going from my experience as a follower. I'm not sure how I learnt to follow.

But I do know that when someone just tells me verbally how to lead a move, or I read about the movements required, or I just watch it without following along, I don't learn it. Dancing, specifically leading, is one of a very few things I've encountered that I don't learn well audio-visually.


The more you dance with beginners, the better you get at dancing with beginners. That's not quite the same as "the better you get at dancing", however.

Too much dancing with beginners and you tend to find that you're less able to dance with people at other levels - this is a typical thing that happens with some taxi dancers.

I meant that the beginners benefit with dancing from better dancers. Or, perhaps I'm just extrapolating too far from my own experiences.

I'm sorry if I caused offense with my previous post - I should have explicitly stated that it was just my little-qualified opinion.

[Minnie M]

....The more you dance with beginners, the better you get at dancing with beginners. That's not quite the same as "the better you get at dancing", however.

Too much dancing with beginners and you tend to find that you're less able to dance with people at other levels - this is a typical thing that happens with some taxi dancers.

:yeah:

[David Bailey]

Good point - now that I think about it, it's backleading that I learn to do memorising the movements (not that I make a habit of backleading). When I do classes as a leader I mostly figure it out by knowing where the follower is meant to be going from my experience as a follower. I'm not sure how I learnt to follow.

But I do know that when someone just tells me verbally how to lead a move, or I read about the movements required, or I just watch it without following along, I don't learn it. Dancing, specifically leading, is one of a very few things I've encountered that I don't learn well audio-visually.
Fair enough :)

But I was mainly referring to the aspects of dancing which can't be learnt in that way.


I meant that the beginners benefit with dancing from better dancers. Or, perhaps I'm just extrapolating too far from my own experiences.
Again, beginners will have better dances with better dancers. I'm not sure beginners will actually benefit themselves however - for example, a beginner follower with an advanced leader will often find that her mistakes are corrected for her, by her partner.

But she'll still make those mistakes with a less experienced dancer.


I'm sorry if I caused offense with my previous post - I should have explicitly stated that it was just my little-qualified opinion.
Don't be silly, this is a discussion forum, we discuss stuff :)

[Andy McGregor]

Don't be silly, this is a discussion forum, we discuss stuff :)And some people on here are quite prepared to speak with seeming authority when they really haven't a clue ...

.. they might even say they're experts.

I prefer meghann's humility :flower:

[Prian]

Possibly the opposite - knowing Mike or similar is in the class would probably make the teacher a bit nervous and they mightn't teach as well as normal.

Does Mike have that effect on people? I don't think James did.

[Minnie M]

Does Mike have that effect on people? I don't think James did.

hmm.......... Ceroc has grown a tad since those days :wink:

[Prian]

hmm.......... Ceroc has grown a tad since those days :wink:

I know that. I meant that did teachers get nervous when James walked in? And I'm sure more people knew who he was (because Ceroc was smaller :wink:). And there was also the notion among Cerocers that here is the guy who started the thing and the teachers were teaching according to his rules. Mike is just a continuation of those.

[Minnie M]

..........Mike is just a continuation of those.
:whistle:
You must come and visit us Prian, Ceroc 2011 is nothing like Ceroc in the early 1990's.

[Andy McGregor]

:whistle:
You must come and visit us Prian, Ceroc 2011 is nothing like Ceroc in the early 1990's.Yes, when are you appearing on a dance floor?

And, I'd love to know, when was the last time Prian danced MJ?

Things have changed a lot since the early 90s. The dance has now got a frame and footwork :waycool:

[bigdjiver]

:whistle:
You must come and visit us Prian, Ceroc 2011 is nothing like Ceroc in the early 1990's.
The difference in ethos can be seen in this vintage vid, people from Cosmopolitan Jive & Leroc turning out to promote Ceroc.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ceroc+rantzen&aq=f

[Prian]

And, I'd love to know, when was the last time Prian danced MJ?

Actually I still do albeit a bit rusty. Standards here in SL are a little behind the UK.

But the last Ceroc class I was at was in 2007.

[Prian]

But what has the growth of Ceroc got to do with teachers being nervous of Mike Ellard

[Minnie M]

.......... knowing Mike or similar is in the class would probably make the teacher a bit nervous and they mightn't teach as well as normal.


But what has the growth of Ceroc got to do with teachers being nervous of Mike Ellard

I think it is only natural to feel a little nervous when the boss of the very large organisation you are working for watches you, especially if you had not met him before.

[Andy McGregor]

I think it is only natural to feel a little nervous when the boss of the very large organisation you are working for watches you, especially if you had not met him before.Speaking personally, I don't really get nervous when I'm teaching. However, if I was the nervous type, I'd get more nervous is anybody was watching and not participating in the lesson. There's questions which run through my mind. Why are they watching? Why aren't they joining in? Are they judging me?

I was teaching at the weekend and some guys were taking pictures and filming. It would worry me if their reasons weren't so obvious to me.

[DavidY]

I think it is only natural to feel a little nervous when the boss of the very large organisation you are working for watches you, especially if you had not met him before.
:yeah:

When I was taxiing I once had Mike Ellard in the review class and on another occasion Emma Pettitt turned up to video the entire Beginners' experience. This included recording as she came through the door into the venue, the Beginners' class, and the taxi class (which again I was in).

All very good things for an organisation to do, but nerve-wracking when you're the one being monitored.