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View Full Version : Which comes first, the dancer or the music?



David Bailey
8th-February-2011, 10:49 AM
Inspired by:

(I later found out that she's the type that asks for a dance before she finds out what the music is).

I must admit, up until a few years ago, I used to do this as well - pick the person I wanted to dance with, grab her, then dance to whatever was being played.

Now, I'm waaaay more picky - I usually wait to listen to the music, then look around to see who's available to dance with. This means I get less choice of dance partner, but it means I only dance to the tracks I want to dance to.

What do you do?

Gav
8th-February-2011, 11:09 AM
Both really. :na:

For example, I may decide that I'd like to dance with someone, but as I go to ask, a pants song comes on, so I'll take the opportunity to go to the bar or get some fresh air instead.
Or, a song I really like comes on and I'll ask someone nearby and take the risk that I might not enjoy the dance to a song I like.



Well, that's the theory anyway. More often than not, I end up sitting and watching until someone asks me. :blush:

Trouble
8th-February-2011, 11:18 AM
Blimey, im not fussy at all.

Song starts, get a dance, end off.

Gav
8th-February-2011, 11:21 AM
Blimey, im not fussy at all.

Song starts, get a dance, end off.

Thanks, we all feel so special now. :tears: :tears: :tears:

Trouble
8th-February-2011, 11:33 AM
Thanks, we all feel so special now. :tears: :tears: :tears:

Gav, your very special :D

Maxine
8th-February-2011, 12:00 PM
If it's a song I really like, I will try and get someone who I think will dance the way I like to that song and there are certain dancers I really would rather not dance with to that particular song, but I would never say no if they asked.

For the majority of songs, whoever is available/grab-able:D

If it is boing boing music, I'd just rather not dance with anyone.

Prian
8th-February-2011, 12:29 PM
Could be a poll here somewhere.

The question could be asked, whether it is better to dance to a nice song with someone you would rather not or dance with someone you like to a song that you don't.

Double Trouble
8th-February-2011, 02:27 PM
The problem I find is that a track will come on that I just have to dance to, but once the track has started, all the best leads have usually been snapped up, so you end up dancing to your favorite track with Mr BO 2 Left Feet. :sick:

Lory
8th-February-2011, 02:47 PM
Surely no one can argue that some dancers are better suited to some music genre's than others?
and being honest, 'if' I have a choice, I'll always match a partner to the music but I'd seldom refuse 'just because' the song didn't match

But truthfully, there's nothing worse than hearing one of your favourite smooth sexy tracks, that's full of expressive breaks and passion and missing the guy your heading for and ending up with Mr Jolly bouncer, who's going to dance exactly the same to whatever track was playing, no matter what it was :tears:

philsmove
8th-February-2011, 03:21 PM
....But truthfully, there's nothing worse than hearing one of your favourite smooth sexy tracks, that's full of expressive breaks and passion and missing the guy your heading for and ending up with Mr Jolly bouncer, ...:


.... , so you end up dancing to your favorite track with Mr BO 2 Left Feet. :sick:
:yeah:

It happens to all of us :tears:
(Ms jolly bouncer 2 left feet in my case)
May be there is something to said for compilations, were you know whats coming next

Prian
8th-February-2011, 04:53 PM
:yeah:

It happens to all of us :tears:

:yeah:

And there is of course the lead (always one or two in the class too), that are of the impression that the first one to finish the routine wins.

David Bailey
8th-February-2011, 06:21 PM
There's obviously pros and cons to both approaches - and both are extreme examples, as a decent dancer will be able to adjust to the style of their partner or the music as required.

But personally, I've got much more "music-picky" over the past few years.

One nice solution is if you know what track is coming next - projecting the track name onto a screen, for example. Then you can pick a victim in advance.

Some milongas do this "up next" thing. I think Utopia used to tell you what genre was coming next but not the actual track, I dunno if they still do that however.

Rocky
8th-February-2011, 06:25 PM
The problem I find is that a track will come on that I just have to dance to, but once the track has started, all the best leads have usually been snapped up, so you end up dancing to your favorite track with Mr BO 2 Left Feet. :sick:

Who's not asked anyone to dance because he's waaaay to picky these days...

David Bailey
8th-February-2011, 07:36 PM
Who's not asked anyone to dance because he's waaaay to picky these days...

Damn, I knew someone would get there before I could.

"Two left feet" is a bit harsh though. Maybe I need to tell people to shout out the names of the moves they want me to lead.

cederic
8th-February-2011, 09:33 PM
If I'm coming off the floor I'll hear the next track and if it's very fast/slow/familiar I'll look for someone that can dance fast/slow/playfully. If it's "just another track" I'll grab whoever looks like they want a dance.

If I've been sitting out a song (getting a drink, cooling down, getting breath back, etc) then I'll usually grab someone else that's been sat out as the previous song is finishing and take a gamble on the new track.

Frankly I'm not going to grab a 65yo follower for 'Candyman' although I have half-timed something nearly as fast with one ;)

jivecat
8th-February-2011, 10:03 PM
Surely no one can argue that some dancers are better suited to some music genre's than others?
and being honest, 'if' I have a choice, I'll always match a partner to the music but I'd seldom refuse 'just because' the song didn't match

But truthfully, there's nothing worse than hearing one of your favourite smooth sexy tracks, that's full of expressive breaks and passion and missing the guy your heading for and ending up with Mr Jolly bouncer, who's going to dance exactly the same to whatever track was playing, no matter what it was :tears:

Absolutely. Likewise, if there are favourite leads around that I'm only likely to get one or two dances with, then I'll "save" them for a decent track. Some tracks, like "Fire" I've treacle-ceroc'd to too many times and I'd rather sit them out now rather than grab just anybody.

Most of the time I figure that I'm there to dance, that I can't expect either dancers or music to be perfect, and that results are best if I just muck in and take what comes.


Some milongas do this "up next" thing.Like I'd be any the wiser! After 5 years of hearing tango music I still could barely put a name to any artist by listening. Is it just me?

Ghost
9th-February-2011, 01:29 AM
Like I'd be any the wiser! After 5 years of hearing tango music I still could barely put a name to any artist by listening. Is it just me?

The name of the track probably wouldn't help me much, but the orchestra probably would.

Stereotypically

Di Sarli – lyrical and user friendly
D’Arienzo – very strong rhythm (arguably the boing-boing of tango)
Canaro – sort of in-between the two above
Troilo – non-user friendly – uses off-beats deliberately :sick:
Piazolla – most famously Libertango which uses a pesky 332 rhythm
Pugliese – often Bluesy, sometimes more manic. He didn’t want people to dance to his music.


Of course if the DJ wants to play non-stereotypical pieces :confused:

The tanda thing does mean you know what the next few songs are going to be like though, whereas in Ceroc you don't (unless you ask the DJ...)

Prian
9th-February-2011, 04:45 AM
If I'm coming off the floor I'll hear the next track and if it's very fast/slow/familiar I'll look for someone that can dance fast/slow/playfully.


Often I have stood where we finished hand in hand with my partner waiting to see what the next track will be especially if I have just enjoyed the dance. If it's a song I don't enjoy I will say so and apologise and leave.

There have also been times when I have been asked to dance, but don't like dancing with her and so declined. Only to be approached for a dance by a regular partner within a few seconds. I usually decline too as to me that would seem rude.

There was a character at one venue (St. Mary's in Marylebone), who told me that it was not allowed for a lady to ask a man to dance, unless authorised by the Queen. The look he used to give whenever a lady did ask him for a dance was priceless.:rofl:

DavidY
9th-February-2011, 08:00 AM
The tanda thing does mean you know what the next few songs are going to be like though, whereas in Ceroc you don't (unless you ask the DJ...)One of the venues where I used to dance had a laptop with a playlist already set up - and it was set up where anyone could walk past and look at it. At times I did use it to position myself near to someone I wanted to dance for a particular track I liked.

Lory
9th-February-2011, 08:46 AM
One of the venues where I used to dance had a laptop with a playlist already set up - and it was set up where anyone could walk past and look at it. At times I did use it to position myself near to someone I wanted to dance for a particular track I liked.

I quite like that idea, it would add a bit of a novelty to an evening! :na:

Gav
9th-February-2011, 09:42 AM
had a laptop with a playlist already set up - and it was set up where anyone could walk past and look at it.

I quite like that idea, it would add a bit of a novelty to an evening! :na:

Didn't they try that at Ashtons? I seem to remember a bigger screen though?

Or maybe I just dreamt that? :blush:

jivecat
9th-February-2011, 10:03 AM
There was a character at one venue (St. Mary's in Marylebone), who told me that it was not allowed for a lady to ask a man to dance, unless authorised by the Queen. The look he used to give whenever a lady did ask him for a dance was priceless.:rofl:

Must have been an AT venue.

David Bailey
9th-February-2011, 10:51 AM
Like I'd be any the wiser! After 5 years of hearing tango music I still could barely put a name to any artist by listening. Is it just me?
Nah, it all sounds the same to me too :)

Actually, after a while you do get a rough acquaintance with different orchestras - have a look here (http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Fusion/MusicalityForCerocersThree.html)for a quick overview.

Prian
9th-February-2011, 11:00 AM
Must have been an AT venue.

Ceroc alas

David Bailey
9th-February-2011, 11:03 AM
Didn't they try that at Ashtons? I seem to remember a bigger screen though?

Or maybe I just dreamt that? :blush:
I've seen it at a few places - I think there may even be some specialised software that you can use to display it for you. It doesn't seem impossible to organise.

Actually, what I'd really like is a dual- or triple-screen version at weekenders, so that you could see what's coming up next in each room :)

straycat
9th-February-2011, 11:28 AM
One of the venues where I used to dance had a laptop with a playlist already set up - and it was set up where anyone could walk past and look at it. At times I did use it to position myself near to someone I wanted to dance for a particular track I liked.

So was this a playlist that was prearranged before the start of the evening? Or was there a DJ involved during the set?

Lory
9th-February-2011, 11:47 AM
Didn't they try that at Ashtons? I seem to remember a bigger screen though?

Or maybe I just dreamt that? :blush:

I'm sure I remember it, I think it was at UTOPIA though? I remember someone pointing it out to me, when it got to about the last 3 songs and I was gutted that I hadn't noticed it before then :doh:

I wonder why they stopped :confused:

Lory
9th-February-2011, 11:48 AM
Actually, what I'd really like is a dual- or triple-screen version at weekenders, so that you could see what's coming up next in each room :)

That could be hilarious if a popular track was coming up, verses an unknown! :what::rofl:

glads
9th-February-2011, 11:56 AM
Frankly I'm not going to grab a 65yo follower for 'Candyman' although I have half-timed something nearly as fast with one ;)

that's a bit age-ist isn't it?

jivecat
9th-February-2011, 12:21 PM
that's a bit age-ist isn't it?

Hmm. Let's be realistic here. However, I'm intending to be fit enough to be able to dance to Candyman when I'm 65 - whether it's to be recommended on the grounds of taste and aesthetics is another matter.

Or to put it another way - when Candyman comes on do you immediately turn around and grab the nearest grey-bearded, pot-bellied grandad? Thought not.

Trouble
9th-February-2011, 12:44 PM
MM Or we could really go back to the old days and have dance cards. :rolleyes:

Lynn
9th-February-2011, 12:50 PM
One of the venues where I used to dance had a laptop with a playlist already set up - and it was set up where anyone could walk past and look at it. At times I did use it to position myself near to someone I wanted to dance for a particular track I liked.Our venues use laptop playlists, its up on the stage where the teacher can tweak it but sometimes near the end of the night I'll go and have a look and see what tracks are left so I can find suitable partners.

David Bailey
9th-February-2011, 01:19 PM
That could be hilarious if a popular track was coming up, verses an unknown! :what::rofl:
I envisage it as being a bit like that area in Camden tube station where it tells you which platform the next train is arriving on; people would be queueing up and then rushing to / from places.

It's a winner, I tell you.


MM Or we could really go back to the old days and have dance cards. :rolleyes:

E-cards. You put your music preference down on your iPhone, the next track gets fed into a WhoToDanceWith app, and you get matched with a Mystery Dance Partner.

Blimey, I'm brimming with creativity at the moment. :D

Prian
9th-February-2011, 01:41 PM
MM Or we could really go back to the old days and have dance cards. :rolleyes:

Mike Ellard used to do excuse-mes at tea dances. Do they still (excuse-mes that is)?

Rocky
9th-February-2011, 01:42 PM
I'm sure I remember it, I think it was at UTOPIA though? I remember someone pointing it out to me, when it got to about the last 3 songs and I was gutted that I hadn't noticed it before then :doh:

I wonder why they stopped :confused:

Well sort of... when we launched UTOPIA we did start using a lap top set up on the Dj desk facing outwards that showed what the next genre of track was going to be (although not the actual track name itself..:wink:) but we quickly realised it didn't work very well..

Firstly, the screen wasn't big enough for many people to see, and whilst we could have projected it we preferred the ambient clouds and sky image that we use in the venue with the projector. And secondly, just the logistics: Not only is it very hard to categorize some tracks but both SF and I Dj on the fly which means that we often change the decision on the next track to cue up a number of times before playing it (sometimes just seconds before hitting play). So announcing the next track in those circumstances became a little problematical.

I think the unknown often leads to some happy coincidences - either dancing to a track that you feel you don't like with a partner that brings it to life for you, or indeed dancing with someone you've never danced with before.

Having said that the unknown can also be like sh1tting razor blades too...

Prian
9th-February-2011, 01:45 PM
I envisage it as being a bit like that area in Camden tube station where it tells you which platform the next train is arriving on; people would be queueing up and then rushing to / from places.

It's a winner, I tell you.

There are youtube clips one I believe in a mall and one on a train station where groups of people break into song/dance apparently spontaneously (a bit like The Full Monty scene). But I can't seem to find them.

David Bailey
9th-February-2011, 01:55 PM
There are youtube clips one I believe in a mall and one on a train station where groups of people break into song/dance apparently spontaneously (a bit like The Full Monty scene). But I can't seem to find them.

T-mobile - Youtube clip here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ3d3KigPQM)

Still genius.

Trouble
9th-February-2011, 03:01 PM
Plus, you have the musically challenged people like me that couldn't tell you the name or artist of a song they liked anyway so whilst having a list is great, i would be saying.... what does that one go like, to every single one. !! :sick:

David Bailey
9th-February-2011, 03:10 PM
Plus, you have the musically challenged people like me that couldn't tell you the name or artist of a song they liked anyway so whilst having a list is great, i would be saying.... what does that one go like, to every single one. !! :sick:

Don't worry about it.

*Patronising pat on head* :na:

Trouble
9th-February-2011, 03:20 PM
*Patronising pat on head* :na:

You might need a stool to do that David. :na: :na:

David Bailey
9th-February-2011, 03:51 PM
You might need a stool to do that David. :na: :na:

I'll bring one specially along for when you ever come to my classes, you tease you.

Lory
9th-February-2011, 04:31 PM
i would be saying.... what does that one go like, to every single one. !! :sick:

Just follow the people who look like they know! (along with half the other people in the room )

frodo
9th-February-2011, 10:31 PM
One of the venues where I used to dance had a laptop with a playlist already set up - and it was set up where anyone could walk past and look at it. At times I did use it to position myself near to someone I wanted to dance for a particular track I liked.

So much easier to do nowadays without exposing the laptop.

Apart from various wireless options modern operating systems support plug in USB (and USB powered) additional displays.

You can run a USB cable a decent distance (and more with extenders) from a laptop at the DJs position.

And the output of one of those little USB LED projectors is likely to be quite visible in a darkened freestyle environment.

Twirly
9th-February-2011, 11:51 PM
E-cards. You put your music preference down on your iPhone, the next track gets fed into a WhoToDanceWith app, and you get matched with a Mystery Dance Partner.


:rofl:

Beo says he'll write the Android app :D


Plus, you have the musically challenged people like me that couldn't tell you the name or artist of a song they liked anyway so whilst having a list is great, i would be saying.... what does that one go like, to every single one. !! :sick:

:yeah:

I'm hopeless with names of anything, songs/artists included. :blush:
I am usually a "find the nearest person if I manage to recognise a favourite track" dancer. By the time I've recognised it, looked around for someone who looks not too exhausted and figured out whether they'd be particularly good with that track, I'd have missed my opportunity and would just have to watch them dancing it with someone else. :banghead:

Lory
10th-February-2011, 12:41 AM
I'm hopeless with names of anything, songs/artists included. :blush:

Practice here http://www.nme.com/tuborg My best score out of 3 was 22.56secs :D

Lory
10th-February-2011, 12:43 AM
Practice here http://www.nme.com/tuborg My best score out of 3 was 22.56secs :D
ooh ooh 19.89 :waycool:

cederic
10th-February-2011, 02:08 AM
15.46, although that wasn't out of 3 if you count the ones I didn't complete because I got wrong one.

It's an awful game - the ones I do know are generally the ones I go "ooh, I'll listen to that!" and then I'm using up time...

ant
10th-February-2011, 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Trouble http://1.2.3.9/bmi/forum.cerocscotland.com/images/orange/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.cerocscotland.com/showthread.php?p=584853#post584853)

i would be saying.... what does that one go like, to every single one. !! http://1.2.3.9/bmi/forum.cerocscotland.com/images/smilies/9.gif

Originally Posted by Twirly http://1.2.3.9/bmi/forum.cerocscotland.com/images/orange/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.cerocscotland.com/showthread.php?p=584911#post584911)
I'm hopeless with names of anything, songs/artists included. http://1.2.3.13/bmi/forum.cerocscotland.com/images/smilies/8.gif

As DB has said they do this projector thing at a few AT milongas, the orchestra (or music type if not tango) and sometimes the actual track name depending on venue. I have found it very helpful in being able to recognise various tracks now at milongas where it is not used.


Originally posted by Rocky.... the next genre ....whilst we could have projected it...

Rocky is there any chance of trying this and/or the actual track and performer in the future?

Rocky
10th-February-2011, 11:46 AM
...Rocky is there any chance of trying this and/or the actual track and performer in the future?

Yes of course.. I'll list all the tracks and the performers and then I think it'll be a great idea to give every one a free CD of all mine and SF's music selections on the way out..

That'll be a 'no' then Ant..:wink:

DJ Mike
10th-February-2011, 03:43 PM
Well, giving out a CD would of course be illegal, but can't quite see what the harm is in at least telling people what you're playing! :)

straycat
10th-February-2011, 03:54 PM
Well, giving out a CD would of course be illegal, but can't quite see what the harm is in at least telling people what you're playing! :)

Don't you find out anyway just by listening? :innocent:

David Bailey
10th-February-2011, 04:20 PM
Well, giving out a CD would of course be illegal, but can't quite see what the harm is in at least telling people what you're playing! :)
Apparently it would give away supersecret information, the mere possession of which would automatically turn anyone into a top-notch DJ.

And should you be caught writing down or Spotify-ing a track, ever, you will be hunted down like the dog you are.

You have been warned.

(Oh, and this entire section of the forum (http://forum.cerocscotland.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12)? It doesn't exist. Neither do any playlists posted by anyone (http://forum.cerocscotland.com/showthread.php?t=17597). :wink: )

straycat
10th-February-2011, 05:05 PM
And should you be caught writing down or Spotify-ing a track, ever, you will be hunted down like the dog you are.

I presume you mean 'Shazam-ing'?

David Bailey
10th-February-2011, 05:25 PM
I presume you mean 'Shazam-ing'?

Yah. That one.

You can tell I know a lot about this music stuff, can't you? :blush:

t0mt0m
10th-February-2011, 05:52 PM
Isn't it a curious paradox, that a DJ really wants to share the songs they've got ready with the dancers, to really get them to listen and dance to it - but simultaneously not want to tell them about what the track actually is (due to commercial reasons?) as it's not their own work, but rather is a demonstration of their DJ track finding, curation, timing skills?

The better the track, the worse the potential feeling a DJ could have in sharing it as it is then out in the open, public knowledge (losing it's hidden/rare/less heard of status)?

Seems the current solution is to put the hassle bar high enough that it's not too difficult to find out what 1-2 tracks of a set are by asking DJ (or shazam-ing), but to not make available details of an entire set, and stare down persistent shazamers (who might likely be novices on the scene - otherwise they'd probably know more of the songs already). Making it a bit of an effort to find out, rather than making it no effort at all (so making the dancer go and find out, rather than sit back and watch what the song-prompter says) is a pretty fair balance.

David Bailey
10th-February-2011, 06:17 PM
Seems the current solution is to put the hassle bar high enough that it's not too difficult to find out what 1-2 tracks of a set are by asking DJ (or shazam-ing), but to not make available details of an entire set, and stare down persistent shazamers (who might likely be novices on the scene - otherwise they'd probably know more of the songs already). Making it a bit of an effort to find out, rather than making it no effort at all (so making the dancer go and find out, rather than sit back and watch what the song-prompter says) is a pretty fair balance.
Let's face it, it's a pretty poor solution. No matter how scary your stare is.

Historically, it's getting easier and easier to find out what a track is; that's obvious. Ten years ago, it was near-impossible to find out what a new track was; you had to get the information from the DJ.

Five years ago, it was simply difficult.

Now, it's easy. Assuming the track is available to the public, you can listen to the music, point your smartphone at it, then buy the track, all in the space of time it takes to play the track.

(Huh - I've just realised, I've already got Shazam on my iPhone... shows how much I use this stuff... :blush: )

I don't see how anyone can stop this - short of imposing draconian measures such as patrolling venues and confiscating anyone using a smartphone.

So it seems a bit silly to try to go to any lengths to protect this information, when it's readily-available, and will become more so in the future based on current trends. I reckon at some point, you'll be able to leave your phone on Shazam mode, put it in your pocket, and tell it to "record this playlist and buy the tracks", and then dance away regardless.

In fact, I'd have thought it might be worthwhile to exploit that tendency, rather than fight it. For example, by becoming an iTunes supplier, and providing a playlist on your website with links to the tracks, so you get a commission on sales, and you look good to your customers.

t0mt0m
10th-February-2011, 06:38 PM
I'd agree that the genie is out of the bottle somewhat - I remember having a similar conversation with Edie the Salsa freak on what DJs should do for salsa music a while back.

From the actual musicians' standpoint - i'd bet they'd be a bit annoyed that the DJ was intentionally blocking people learning about their music, and missing out on sales!

Seeing as NFC is coming (already in Android 2.3, and will be in iOS 5.0 so I hear) this year, I could see something on the horizon pretty soon:
An app for the DJ, that allows them to hold the playlist on it. When someone asks for the tune, you could bump the DJ's & asker's iphone/android handset, then the link to the track / or actually make a purchase then and there with a commission on top for the DJ so they got more than just the paltry affiliate fee.

Why would folk do that over just shazaming? Why do venues ask people to buy bottled water over bringing their own... If there's a better easier solution, then they might.

The DJ's usefulness is in part their encyclopedic knowledge. They could have as part of the deal provide details as to other tracks by that artist that they'd like - basically monetize the DJs knowledge of their music.

You can give someone a huge playlist and say - these are awesome. But it probablywon't be as good as going from one recommendation, and slowly branching out from there.

Wouldn't it be great if it suddenly became a positive for the DJ? Yes it'd rely on smartphones, but you could provide an itunes/amazon link as alternative. but it'd better than receiving just an affiliate fee per track. (5 whole pennies!)).

Maybe it's too niche a market or too disruptive - you'd need the DJs on board.
But the DJs can't stop the tech.

In terms of having Shazam on full time over a night - all you'd need would be a script to take samples of a night's mp3 recording every 2 minutes, then pass these 20 second samples onto Shazam (if they have an API).

As you say - it could be a net benefit for customers and DJ. But it does require the conscious step of "letting go" of a hoarding mentality - the DJ can't ever rest on laurels of previously found tracks.

jive-vee
10th-February-2011, 07:51 PM
ooh ooh 19.89 :waycool:

10.21 so far :D

Twirly
10th-February-2011, 10:49 PM
Practice here http://www.nme.com/tuborg My best score out of 3 was 22.56secs :D

Did it twice, and got 23.44 both times... maybe I'm not as bad as I think I am, or maybe it was just luck!

David Franklin
10th-February-2011, 11:32 PM
9.14 (quite a few tries :blush: )

Trouble
11th-February-2011, 04:44 PM
9.14 (quite a few tries :blush: )

12.05 was my quickest but quite a load of tries :sick: