View Full Version : First 3 Moves...
Yliander
13th-December-2010, 05:36 PM
I've got a beginner private student starting next week and have been considering which 3 moves are best to start with for a lead...
and thought I would see what opinion was here....
Prian
13th-December-2010, 05:58 PM
1. First Move
2. Arm Jive Push Spin
3. Catapult.
Minnie M
13th-December-2010, 09:00 PM
1. First Move
2. Arm Jive Push Spin
3. Catapult.
Not the Catapult - that is difficult one for a very new beginner
You need a turning move - forgotten the move names :blush: under-arm turn ???
Andy McGregor
13th-December-2010, 09:31 PM
2. Arm Jive Push Spin.I never teach the push spin to beginners - and I can't remember the last time I taught it to anybody at all! It's because a spin is much more intuitive if it's led somewhere near the lady's centre of gravity - leading a spin with a flat hand at shoulder height is more likely to put the lady off balance or get the lady to travel and complete the turn in 2 beats rather than spin on the spot in one beat.
My advice is to teach the following;
1. Travelling arm jive with a travelling return to finish
2. Manspin collecting right to right
3. Travelling ladyspin with a return on the spot to finish and collect the lady's spare hand to start again.
This is the routine I teach when I have a class where everyone is a beginner. You know the kind of thing, weddings, PTA socials, etc.
This routine has plenty of change place moves and the lady is mostly doing 180 pivot turns on each beat/step rather than 360 degree turns on each beat/step - the final turn is a 360 but that comes at the end of the routine. Another good thing with this routine is that the travelling return from the travelling arm jive is just like the 'girl goes through' bit of the octopus.
What this routine does not have is the guy turning under his own hand. Beginner guys find this difficult and is the reason some guys struggle with 'the guy goes trough' bit the octopus. And the catapult is a very difficult move for beginners with loads of stuff going on - it's almost a routine on it's own!
cederic
14th-December-2010, 12:24 AM
1. Travelling arm jive with a travelling return to finish
How does that one go? Sounds awfully complicated - armjive is a nice easy beginner move, but a travelling one would've put me in panic mode..
Normal armjive is much nicer than a pushspin one for me - but that may be personal preference.
My first class taught Armjive Swizzle, Basket and Shoulder Slide, and I still think that's a nasty starter :)
If you can go beyond 3 moves (and I don't know whether that becomes too much to take in, as I'm not a teacher) throw in the backpass - there's nothing worse as a beginner than finding yourself right-to-right with bugger all options available to you. The link moves (shoulder slide, manspin, backpass) and the momentum moves (step across, travelling return) made a massive difference to getting through a whole song as a beginner.
Agente Secreto
14th-December-2010, 12:37 AM
Yli, my opinion.
I like the plain arm jive, it is good for a newbie guy and easy to get to grips with.
I'd add a man spin, to start the guy off understanding he has to move too
Then I'd maybe go for a basket or an octopus
Dreadful Scathe
14th-December-2010, 12:46 AM
1. syncopated pretzel
2. tumble drier
3. back to the future
Lee Bartholomew
14th-December-2010, 01:22 AM
1. suger push
2. left side pass
3. whip
:devil::devil: :devil:
Prian
14th-December-2010, 03:50 AM
Not the Catapult - that is difficult one for a very new beginner
You need a turning move - forgotten the move names :blush: under-arm turn ???
You might have a point. Could probably swap it for a basket. Though when I started Ceroc the catapult was taught as a dedicated beginners move.
Falling standards eh!! Bit like A'levels. :lol:
Prian
14th-December-2010, 03:58 AM
- leading a spin with a flat hand at shoulder height is more likely to put the lady off balance or get the lady to travel and complete the turn in 2 beats
I haven't taught/taxied since 2001. But in my experience a slight push downwards with the man's flat hand from shoulder height allows the lady to spin just fine. And isn't that what Ceroc teaches/taught?
Though they have changed teaching techniques on a number of moves. I was taught the Wurlitzer where the man stands at a slight angle away from the lady and as he flings her hand for the spin he turns toward her and stamps (yes taught to stamp). I know that is taught quite differently now.
Minnie M
14th-December-2010, 08:10 AM
I haven't taught/taxied since 2001.......
You ever coming over for a visit Prian ? I am sure lots of us would love to meet you and maybe a dance or two (including me) :hug:
FoxyFunkster
14th-December-2010, 09:33 AM
I've got a beginner private student starting next week and have been considering which 3 moves are best to start with for a lead...
and thought I would see what opinion was here....
A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time! You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly! Get him to understand those sound principals first! He can get moves from anywhere! In fact i'd even suggest he goes to some beginners classes first so he get some basic understanding, you then have something to build on! It's not moves we need!
Double Trouble
14th-December-2010, 10:13 AM
A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time! You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly!
But how will Yli make any money with that attitude? Didn't you know the customer is always right, even when they are actually ill informed bystanders. :wink:
FoxyFunkster
14th-December-2010, 11:18 AM
But how will Yli make any money with that attitude? Didn't you know the customer is always right, even when they are actually ill informed bystanders. :wink:
She didn't say that is what the customer asked for??? and i would hope it is not about making money but even if Yils intention is soley to make money then i believe getting repeat business comes from the customer seeing themselves progress, if you teach him moves rather than learning how to dance then he can''t possibly improve as a dancer, he'll probably end up being a pattern machine, and as i said he can get a million patterns from DVD`s or classes but what he can't get from classes is how to dance properly! I've learnt through experience that the people still taking repeat lessons are the ones who want to learn how to become better dancers rather than wanting more moves! People will quickly and ultimately get bored of patterns!
Dreadful Scathe
14th-December-2010, 11:21 AM
A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time!
If he learns moves then it is hardly a waste of time.
You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly! Get him to understand those sound principals first! He can get moves from anywhere!
The Ceroc/leroc principle of learning moves first does allow for a greater understanding of "how to dance" later on - probably most of us learnt that way. And doing it the other way round - learning physicallity, musicallity and allowing the moves to flow naturally from that...would probably have lead to a class drop-out rate of 90% or so. :) We don't know the full situation for this particular person, but for you to suggest "he can get moves from anywhere" is silly - let me sarcastically state that you tend to only get them from a modern jive class or a person willing to teach you, and he is choosing to get them via a private lesson with Yli.
In fact i'd even suggest he goes to some beginners classes first so he get some basic understanding, you then have something to build on! It's not moves we need!
Yes it is. No it isnt. It depends. Also, I have to take issue with you logic here - you say its not moves we need, then suggest that he goes to some beginners classes which will mostly teach him...think about it!
Worst advice ever : 2 out of 10.
David Bailey
14th-December-2010, 11:41 AM
I've got a beginner private student starting next week and have been considering which 3 moves are best to start with for a lead...
I'd avoid teaching the First Move, it teaches very little about technique.
In fact, I'd avoid teaching any of the "complex moves" - pretzel, catapult, etc. (Although see caveat at the end of this post)
I did a private "basics" class a couple of weeks ago (yes, I know, don't tell anyone!), we covered a small set of fundamentals, each covering a fundamental area:
- Arm Jive: transfer of weight and "keep moving" default move
- In and out / side-to-side: accordion motion
- Turn / return: turning (leading and following)
That said, typically, I think the problem for total beginner leads is in the "what to do next" bit - they can't go from one movement to another, all their concentration is on other things. Which is why, if they get taught a "routine", it's much easier for them to grasp, and it's easier for them to fake being able to lead.
So if you teach the lead those three, be aware that, to an untrained eye the lead will initially look less like "a dancer" than someone doing a relatively complex routine - because most untrained eyes won't notice that the routine is being repeated all the time. So be prepared to see a lot of arm jives in the dance :)
One way to get around this is to teach one "flash" move per lesson. I did the Teapot, they seemed to enjoy it.
Double Trouble
14th-December-2010, 11:42 AM
A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time! You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly! Get him to understand those sound principals first!
But how will Yli make any money with that attitude? Didn't you know the customer is always right, even when they are actually ill informed bystanders. :wink:
She didn't say that is what the customer asked for??? and i would hope it is not about making money but even if Yils intention is soley to make money then i believe getting repeat business comes from the customer seeing themselves progress
But what you said here is my point exactly. When you start as a beginner, you just want to be able to string a few moves together and that in itself is progress to a novice. Personally, I think "learning how to move your body" either comes naturally, or can sort of be taught over time once basic moves have been learnt, but not in all cases.
What about people (we all know at least one) who have been religiously dancing for years and years, go to classes 2 or 3 times a week, know all the moves, but will never ever move properly while dancing or be capable of any form of musicality. Should Yli tell them they're a lost cause and not offer any lessons at all? She wont know what they're capable of until she tries a few moves with them to begin with.
FoxyFunkster
14th-December-2010, 11:55 AM
But what you said here is my point exactly. When you start as a beginner, you just want to be able to string a few moves together and that in itself is progress to a novice. Personally, I think "learning how to move your body" either comes naturally, or can sort of be taught over time once basic moves have been learnt, but not in all cases.
What about people (we all know at least one) who have been religiously dancing for years and years, go to classes 2 or 3 times a week, know all the moves, but will never ever move properly while dancing or be capable of any form of musicality. Should Yli tell them they're a lost cause and not offer any lessons at all? She wont know what they're capable of until she tries a few moves with them to begin with.
Of course she shouldn't tell them they are a lost cause or refuse to offer lessons, i simply think the best course of action for Private tuition is to concentrate on teaching the things that you cannot get from a Class format! In the class format you can get your moves/patterns but what teachers on stage can never do is tailor the teaching to individuals, So i'm simply saying i think he would progress faster if he was taught technique from the outset rather than moves!
David Bailey
14th-December-2010, 11:55 AM
But what you said here is my point exactly. When you start as a beginner, you just want to be able to string a few moves together and that in itself is progress to a novice.
And in a group class, that's why they teach a routine. But in a private lesson, a teacher should be able to educate the student, and provide them what they need (technique), as well as what they want (moves).
You pretty much have to cover some technique in a private - otherwise why have a private in the first place?
Sure, commercial reasons (you want the student to return) mean that you should give them some sweeties in terms of moves. But you also need to stretch the student and get them to think.
Personally, I think "learning how to move your body" either comes naturally, or can sort of be taught over time once basic moves have been learnt, but not in all cases.
I'd have to disagree. I'd also say that, for teaching a lead, leading definitely does not come naturally. Learning moves teaches you nothing about how to lead.
(Caveat: I assume Yli's done a reasonable amount of leading herself)
What about people (we all know at least one) who have been religiously dancing for years and years, go to classes 2 or 3 times a week, know all the moves, but will never ever move properly while dancing or be capable of any form of musicality. Should Yli tell them they're a lost cause and not offer any lessons at all?
No, she should offer them technique-based classes.
jivecat
14th-December-2010, 12:09 PM
A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time! You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly! Get him to understand those sound principals first!
Yeah! In fact he should have started at birth! We're all doomed
Andy McGregor
14th-December-2010, 01:24 PM
How does that one go? Sounds awfully complicated - armjive is a nice easy beginner move, but a travelling one would've put me in panic mode..The travelling arm jive is also called the grinder. The reason I do it as a basic move is that it incorporates the basic walking footwork of MJ and looks better than the regular arm jive.
The thing with the regular arm jive is that it is one of the few moves that requires the weight to be placed on each foot for 2 beats. To me it always looks like something you'd do while you were marking time and trying to think of the next move - I still teach it because it's a nice safety zone for beginners, but I rarely see intermediate dancers doing the basic arm jive.
The travelling arm jive is a really simple move which I find people learn in a few minutes.
1. The guy sends the lady back
2. Draws her forward into his right hand side pulling gently from the right elbow taking the left hand to the left and keeping both hands at hip height
3. As he changes places with the lady he pushes with his left hand and pulls with his right as he turns 180 to face the way he's come. This should turn the lady 180 to face the guy.
When I teach this move we usually repeat 3 times.
Ghost
14th-December-2010, 01:30 PM
Although it depends why the guy wants to learn, something that hasn't been mentioned is beginner women - ie the people he's most likely to dance with!
I agree with David
- Arm Jive: transfer of weight and "keep moving" default move (maybe do a travelling versin where you take several steps to go around rather than full 180 turns)
- In and out / side-to-side: accordion motion
- Turn / return: turning (leading and following)
should work on 99% of beginner followers, so he can actually dance :cheers: rather than think "why isn't it working?! :tears:
In all honesty I can't lead the basket, catapult, yo-yo, octopus, first move etc properly on all beginners.
Prian
14th-December-2010, 01:42 PM
You ever coming over for a visit Prian ? I am sure lots of us would love to meet you and maybe a dance or two (including me) :hug:
:love:
Very kind of you to say. I may come by April but definitely within the year.
Lory
14th-December-2010, 02:05 PM
Well Yli, its seems its all pretty much clear cut then! :D
alinp
14th-December-2010, 06:43 PM
I'd avoid teaching the First Move, it teaches very little about technique.
Poppycock!!!!!
The First moves has plenty of technique in it if taught correctly - tension, compression, frame, weight transfer, turning/spining (including prep).
Yliander
15th-December-2010, 08:58 AM
this has made for very interesting reading!!! and given me lots to think about!!
had even't considered the arm jive - as it's a move that seems completely blah and didn't think it offered much in terms of technique.
the student is a friend of mine - I'm not getting paid - so making money is not part of the equation - no group classes for him to attend.
my intention is to teach technique with moves - as that is the format I'm used to from teaching in Aus, where lead/follow/technique are taught as part of the moves. Technique doesn't sit independently of moves - they work together how do you teach someone correct arm tension is they are actually using it....
first move was/is top of my list - as when taught wtih foot work - it offers a lot points for teaching leading, connection, tension etc
2nd on my list was
wurlitzer - as it is a move that can have a lot of variables
after that I was considering
octopus
basket
once again good moves for building on
another one that just occured to me was neck break...
so what are peoples thoughts on the moves I'm considering??
the goal is to teach him moves and technique to go with them so that he can lead a whole dance with them.... most likely with a non-dancer as there isn't a very big dance scene here
and now I must get on with unpacking - I hate moving house
JiveLad
15th-December-2010, 09:12 AM
this has made for very interesting reading!!! and given me lots to think about!!
had even't considered the arm jive - as it's a move that seems completely blah and didn't think it offered much in terms of technique.
the student is a friend of mine - I'm not getting paid - so making money is not part of the equation - no group classes for him to attend.
my intention is to teach technique with moves - as that is the format I'm used to from teaching in Aus, where lead/follow/technique are taught as part of the moves. Technique doesn't sit independently of moves - they work together how do you teach someone correct arm tension is they are actually using it....
first move was/is top of my list - as when taught wtih foot work - it offers a lot points for teaching leading, connection, tension etc
2nd on my list was
wurlitzer - as it is a move that can have a lot of variables
after that I was considering
octopus
basket
once again good moves for building on
another one that just occured to me was neck break...
so what are peoples thoughts on the moves I'm considering??
the goal is to teach him moves and technique to go with them so that he can lead a whole dance with them.... most likely with a non-dancer as there isn't a very big dance scene here
and now I must get on with unpacking - I hate moving house
Ok - I'll throw in my perspective on your choices:
1. First Move - YES - a no-brainer, and because it is a building block for a lot of other possibilities.
2. Wurlitzer? - hmmm. Maybe - but I would go for Arm Jive above that.
3. Octopus: no! :eek: I well remember getting myself in a pickle (Octopus pickle anyone? :drool:) over this - and having a remedial catch up with the teacher. That maybe just me having difficulty with armography....
4. Basket - yes.
The other one to consider as well would be a Sway.
Good luck! :grin:
FoxyFunkster
15th-December-2010, 09:35 AM
Poppycock!!!!!
The First moves has plenty of technique in it if taught correctly - tension, compression, frame, weight transfer, turning/spining (including prep).
To expand on this, the 1st move does cover all of these aspects mentioned by Alinap however i'd teach the 1st move more like a WCS Whip as the usual way it is taught in MJ doesn't really work from a lead/follow point of view
Lee Bartholomew
15th-December-2010, 10:24 AM
Maybe it would be better if there is time, to get him to buy a beginners dvd from John Sweeny (http://modernjive.com/) or look on ebay for one of the ceroc beginner dvds they were giving away a while back.
That way you could spend time teaching him technique rather than actual beginner moves.
David Bailey
15th-December-2010, 10:40 AM
Poppycock!!!!!
Well, if you add in multiple exclamation marks, it must be right.
The First moves has plenty of technique in it if taught correctly - tension, compression, frame, weight transfer, turning/spining (including prep).
You could make that argument for many many moves - e.g. the Catapult.
Whilst I agree that you do need that technique to execute the First Move correctly, I really don't think it's appropriate to try to have a multiple-technique-in-one-move mapping, especially for beginners. I find that lessons are more effective when each movement is used to highlight one specific area of technique.
The First Move is good if you want something that looks complex, that people can grasp quickly, and that fools the untrained eye into thinking you're dancing. But that's about it. There's nothing special about the First Move, it's just another sequence.
In addition, I'd argue that it's a sequence which is not (in my view) particularly "natural" to the dance. Although admittedly that's simply my subjective view.
David Bailey
15th-December-2010, 10:45 AM
had even't considered the arm jive - as it's a move that seems completely blah and didn't think it offered much in terms of technique.
It highlights the basic "move to the beat" principle, plus "you have to lead your partner". Remember, this is a beginner. The Arm Jive will look cool to him :)
my intention is to teach technique with moves - as that is the format I'm used to from teaching in Aus, where lead/follow/technique are taught as part of the moves. Technique doesn't sit independently of moves - they work together how do you teach someone correct arm tension is they are actually using it....
Agree.
That said, I still think you're move-focussed - I'd suggest you start with a list of key techniques, and then find moves to illustrate those techniques, rather than the other way around.
the goal is to teach him moves and technique to go with them so that he can lead a whole dance with them.... most likely with a non-dancer as there isn't a very big dance scene here
It's very difficult to lead a lot of those moves on non-dancers; at least, I'd find it tricky.
Whereas simple in-and-out / arm-jive / walkaround based movements are much easier to lead on non-dancer.
Lory
15th-December-2010, 10:56 AM
had even't considered the arm jive - as it's a move that seems completely blah and didn't think it offered much in terms of technique.
Personally, I think the Arm Jive is a really naff move, which if you try to make look any good at all, you end up going against all most important rules of lead and follow. Like completely ignoring any tension and compression etc.
If you follow all the rules properly, you both end up looking like some weird clockwork dolls! :sick::rofl:
Oh, and if the guy also marks time, with a nice clear hand bound......... and you follow correctly :eek::doh:
JiveLad
15th-December-2010, 11:04 AM
PS (As someone else mentioned?) I would introduce the Side-to-Side pretty quickly as non-dancers he might dance with would get this very quickly.
(And I have noticed that it puts a smile on beginners/non-dancer faces -maybe because you are doing something in unison to the music (.. .. or perhaps it is just Jive Lad's mildly entertaining grin.....).
Of course, it is not the kind of move Intermediate, Advanced and Hotshot dancers would consider as a quintessential part of their rich and eclectic dance tapestry.
David Bailey
15th-December-2010, 11:11 AM
PS (As someone else mentioned?)
Me! :)
I would introduce the Side-to-Side pretty quickly as non-dancers he might dance with would get this very quickly.
Yes - and obviously it highlights the accordion motion that's an inherent part of classic MJ.
Of course, it is not the kind of move Intermediate, Advanced and Hotshot dancers would consider as a quintessential part of their rich and eclectic dance tapestry.
I don't do it much, but that's mainly because I don't often dance accordion-stylee. Like any move, it's the way that you do it which matters.
There are no naff moves.
Well, except the Tunnel.
FoxyFunkster
15th-December-2010, 11:36 AM
Me! :)
Yes - and obviously it highlights the accordion motion that's an inherent part of classic MJ.
I don't do it much, but that's mainly because I don't often dance accordion-stylee. Like any move, it's the way that you do it which matters.
There are no naff moves.
Well, except the Tunnel.
Isn'y it called the Man's nelson ladies tunnel man's tunnel?? It is also taught with footwork! :blush:
Lory
15th-December-2010, 11:52 AM
Of course, it is not the kind of move Intermediate, Advanced and Hotshot dancers would consider as a quintessential part of their rich and eclectic dance tapestry.
Maybe not but its one of those moves you can 'style up' :nice:
There are no naff moves.
No but some people manage to make even the slickest of moves look naff! :D
Ghost
15th-December-2010, 02:00 PM
most likely with a non-dancer as there isn't a very big dance scene here
It's very difficult to lead a lot of those moves on non-dancers; at least, I'd find it tricky.
Whereas simple in-and-out / arm-jive / walkaround based movements are much easier to lead on non-dancer.
:yeah:
I think you're trying to solve the wrong problem. Although Ceroc gets touted as the dance you can do at weddings etc, in practice it isn't. The weddings I've been to with a mix of dancers and non-dancers eg Taz's and Twirly's, the Cerocers danced almost exclusively with each other. Sometimes you'll meet someone who's done some salsa and there's enough middle ground to muddle through.
Likewise Dizzy once bought a non-dancer along to Slinkys. There were arguably some of the top leaders in London there - it didn't go particularly well...
A lot of technique etc is going to be extremely difficult to use effectively on someone who doesn't know their part.
If you think about it, it makes sense. If the beginners moves are leadable without the follower knowing anything, women would just skip straight to intermediate classes.
Regarding the specific moves you mentioned - I wouldn't go with any of them, they're just not going to work on non-dancers. Again the ones David's mentioned are you best bet in my experience, having had to answer "So what does Ceroc look like?" for various friends. Manspin works quite well if the guy just turns rather than actually spins. Cerocspins are fairly intuitive to follow too.
Hope that helps
JiveLad
15th-December-2010, 06:42 PM
Maybe not but its one of those moves you can 'style up' :nice:
:D
Pls remind me on our next dance - and I look forward to styling it up with ya :grin:
......before I once again attempt the 'Jack-in-the-box' move with you......
alinp
15th-December-2010, 08:17 PM
I've said my bit and still think the first move holds pretty much all the technique you'll need.
Armjive - oh please God no!
As for a DVD - perhaps something more up to date? http://www.simonandnicole.com/dvd.asp :whistle:
cederic
15th-December-2010, 11:33 PM
The thing with the regular arm jive is that it is one of the few moves that requires the weight to be placed on each foot for 2 beats. To me it always looks like something you'd do while you were marking time
It's probably stylistically awful to watch and horrendous to follow, but these days when I lead an armjive I tend to shift my weight from foot to foot as I turn the lady.
Means less twisting on my dodgy knees and avoids the 'static man' problem.
However, I'm also trying to learn how to not lead it at all except with beginners (as it's a really really easy move for a first-night follower to follow even if she hasn't been taught it).
Regarding the First Move, this isn't necessarily an easy one to teach or learn, but as pointed out, it does give an opportunity to teach an awful lot of technique as a way of highlighting how to make the move work. If that's what you want to teach..
Dreadful Scathe
15th-December-2010, 11:55 PM
Maybe it would be better if there is time, to get him to buy a beginners dvd from John Sweeny (http://modernjive.com/) or look on ebay for one of the ceroc beginner dvds they were giving away a while back.
That way you could spend time teaching him technique rather than actual beginner moves.
Not everyone can learn from DVDs. Not that they are not capable, just that they find it a dry experience and non-interactive. You can't shout "what the hell are you on about" and expect an answer from anyone other than your neighbours. Like many people, as a beginner I bought several videos, as it was in those days, of both Jive and Salsa, I watched them a couple of times but never once treated them as a class and they were ultimately a complete waste of money.
...but some would argue so were any classes i ever went to :)
Ghost
16th-December-2010, 03:40 AM
A few important points about dancing with non-dancers.
Pretty much whichever beginners class you first do in Ceroc, by the end of it a follower has learnt about the accordion step in step out nature of Ceroc and how returns work.
The thing is neither of these are completely intuitive. A perfectly reasonable response to being led to take a step back is to stay still and let the leader move your hand closer to your tummy while he steps back. Likewise the lead for an acw and a cw turn / return is pretty much identical, your hand is lifted in the air, so unless you know the "code" that it's the opposite direction to the way you just turned, it's completely reasonable to go either way.
So if these elements don't work, you don't have much hope trying to lead more complicated moves :banghead:
Lee Bartholomew
16th-December-2010, 09:34 AM
Not everyone can learn from DVDs. Not that they are not capable, just that they find it a dry experience and non-interactive. You can't shout "what the hell are you on about" and expect an answer from anyone other than your neighbours. Like many people, as a beginner I bought several videos, as it was in those days, of both Jive and Salsa, I watched them a couple of times but never once treated them as a class and they were ultimately a complete waste of money.
...but some would argue so were any classes i ever went to :)
I too brought some and never even opened them.
Rocky
16th-December-2010, 11:38 AM
Of course she shouldn't tell them they are a lost cause or refuse to offer lessons, i simply think the best course of action for Private tuition is to concentrate on teaching the things that you cannot get from a Class format! In the class format you can get your moves/patterns but what teachers on stage can never do is tailor the teaching to individuals, So i'm simply saying i think he would progress faster if he was taught technique from the outset rather than moves!
Good grief! Is! Your! Exclamation mark! Key stuck on!!? One of the reasons why WCS or any technique lead dance is far less popular than MJ in this country is because in MJ Teachers don't major on technique as a separate exercise (that doesn't mean they don't teach it..) at the outset. MJ's whole structure is based around getting people through the door and dancing so that they feel that they want to come back - and the same is true of private lessons. You can teach all the technique you like but if your students get so bored they don’t come back you need to ask who that helps? The teacher who’s fixated on teaching technique, or the customer who doesn’t know what he/she wants to learn but knows that they want to experience something about what dancing is about?
Who says you can't teach technique by using moves? In fact teaching technique by using the beginners moves puts that technique into perspective and makes it far more relevant - or are you telling me that you teach dancers about compression by getting then to lean against a wall rather than getting them to practice a sugar push with an actual partner?
I'd avoid teaching the First Move, it teaches very little about technique....
What a load of old fanny...
The starting point of technique in MJ is to get people using the correct hand hold and hand height, putting their weight back onto their back foot and to have the correct arm tension (which of course they would do at the start of the 1st move). Next, for the lead the 1st move teaches the leader to step forwards (or in alternate versions to step to the side and use body weight to lead their partner) and for the follow to respond to the lead by following from the centre rather than arm first, feet second. At this point you would also explain that the follow shouldn't pre-empt the twist and to learn to follow on a beat by beat basis. The lead is then shown how using connection points can move their partner in the direction they require and for the follow it explains how the dynamics of lead and follow makes their body move and also gets them used to the concept of their centre following the direction of their leading hand. The twist forward again is using connection points demonstrating lead and follow and the guys hand to the shoulder explains the importance of hand heights in signalling where the move might go next. If you teach the guy to swing their hand out to their left after the turn and the lady to move their weight to follow their leading hand it also means your explaining how that weight shift and lead will allow the follow to turn back onto the slot rather than off it too..... so you’re right ‘very little technique’ in all of that... Deeeerrrr...
straycat
16th-December-2010, 12:03 PM
MJ's whole structure is based around getting people through the door and dancing so that they feel that they want to come back - and the same is true of private lessons. You can teach all the technique you like but if your students get so bored they don’t come back you need to ask who that helps?
Absolutely true about the classes - and from what Yliander is saying it's very much true in this case, but with private lessons it's very much a matter of what the customer wants... and when I teach privates, more often than not people want an emphasis on technique.
or are you telling me that you teach dancers about compression by getting then to lean against a wall rather than getting them to practice a sugar push with an actual partner?
Interestingly, often in a private lesson or workshop situation (and just occasionally in a class, if the situation warrants it), I do exactly that. The wall exercise is an excellent way of teaching people the difference in feeling between a body lead and an arm lead. It helps stop people from automatically arm-leading a sugar push (for example)
A lot of t/c and footwork teaching can be made much easier by taking the moves out of it, and using simple exercises to help people get stuff into muscle memory. Howver - if taking that approach, it's crucial to then take those exercises, and teach the practical applications - in other words, to fit the skills gained into actual moves.
My apologies for the fact that most of this post isn't really directly relevant to the thread.
Rocky
16th-December-2010, 12:15 PM
Absolutely true about the classes - and from what Yliander is saying it's very much true in this case, but with private lessons it's very much a matter of what the customer wants... and when I teach privates, more often than not people want an emphasis on technique.
Of course, but I'm guessing you teach privates mostly to people who can already dance? I've never experienced any beginner coming in and saying let's forget about the dancing and give me 2 hours just on technique to warm me up please..
Interestingly, often in a private lesson or workshop situation (and just occasionally in a class, if the situation warrants it), I do exactly that. The wall exercise is an excellent way of teaching people the difference in feeling between a body lead and an arm lead. It helps stop people from automatically arm-leading a sugar push (for example)
A lot of t/c and footwork teaching can be made much easier by taking the moves out of it, and using simple exercises to help people get stuff into muscle memory. Howver - if taking that approach, it's crucial to then take those exercises, and teach the practical applications - in other words, to fit the skills gained into actual moves.
My apologies for the fact that most of this post isn't really directly relevant to the thread.
Walls are very useful, but technique is pointless (as you say) unless it's applied, and the easiest way to do that is to show the dynamics in action within the structure of a move.
David Bailey
16th-December-2010, 12:59 PM
Who says you can't teach technique by using moves?
It depends on your perspective. Personally I think teaching moves to illustrate technique is better, but it's arguably a chicken-and-egg thing.
Re: First Move
The starting point of technique in MJ is to get people using the correct hand hold and hand height, putting their weight back onto their back foot and to have the correct arm tension (which of course they would do at the start of the 1st move). Next, for the lead the 1st move teaches the leader to step forwards (or in alternate versions to step to the side and use body weight to lead their partner) and for the follow to respond to the lead by following from the centre rather than arm first, feet second. At this point you would also explain that the follow shouldn't pre-empt the twist and to learn to follow on a beat by beat basis. The lead is then shown how using connection points can move their partner in the direction they require and for the follow it explains how the dynamics of lead and follow makes their body move and also gets them used to the concept of their centre following the direction of their leading hand. The twist forward again is using connection points demonstrating lead and follow and the guys hand to the shoulder explains the importance of hand heights in signalling where the move might go next. If you teach the guy to swing their hand out to their left after the turn and the lady to move their weight to follow their leading hand it also means your explaining how that weight shift and lead will allow the follow to turn back onto the slot rather than off it too..... so you’re right ‘very little technique’ in all of that... Deeeerrrr...
Actually, you're correct.
What I meant to say was that there's too much technique needed in the First Move to make it useful as a, well, first move. There's multiple technique areas, and trying to learn all of them at once is just too confusing for a beginner.
My approach would be to map one technique area to one set of movements; that's what I find works best for me. If you try to do everything, you typically end up with nothing.
So. yes, the First Move contains a lot of technique. It's just not very good as a movement to illustrate technique, because there's so much technique in that sequence.
David Bailey
16th-December-2010, 01:05 PM
Re: "wall-work"
Interestingly, often in a private lesson or workshop situation (and just occasionally in a class, if the situation warrants it), I do exactly that. The wall exercise is an excellent way of teaching people the difference in feeling between a body lead and an arm lead. It helps stop people from automatically arm-leading a sugar push (for example)
I occasionally teach / learn this way in AT also - for example, when working on dissociation for followers, doing ochos with straight arms against the wall helps to keep their upper bodies facing the wall.
The ideal situation is with a bar and mirrors (classic ballet studio setup in other words), so that you can also see what your body is doing.
Walls are good.
Mind you, as most of my classes are in a gym studio, I've also managed to bring in punching-bag dummies, steppers, weights, and gym balls - I've not found a use yet for the spin cycles or the pole-dance podium, but give me time :D
A lot of t/c and footwork teaching can be made much easier by taking the moves out of it, and using simple exercises to help people get stuff into muscle memory. Howver - if taking that approach, it's crucial to then take those exercises, and teach the practical applications - in other words, to fit the skills gained into actual moves.
Yes - technique first, then moves to illustrate and exercise that technique.
That's my preferred approach also.
Whereas, I suspect the Ceroc mindset is "moves first, technique later".
marcusj
16th-December-2010, 01:07 PM
1. syncopated pretzel
2. tumble drier
3. back to the future
I love the tumble drier !
The yoyo felt good when I first started.
robd
16th-December-2010, 02:18 PM
The twist forward again is using connection points demonstrating lead and follow
Is the first move still 'officially' taught with man's RH on ladies hip to twist or on their shoulder blade? I've always thought the former much trickier to achieve than the latter.
Andy McGregor
16th-December-2010, 05:06 PM
Good grief! Is! Your! Exclamation mark! Key stuck on!!? One of the reasons why WCS or any technique lead dance is far less popular than MJ in this country is because in MJ Teachers don't major on technique as a separate exercise (that doesn't mean they don't teach it..) at the outset.
snip loads of sensible advice
Deeeerrrr...It seems like someone has got hold of Rocky's account. But it's someone sensible so I suggest they change the password and stop the stroppy, idiotic Rocky from ever coming here again :wink:
straycat
16th-December-2010, 05:35 PM
Of course, but I'm guessing you teach privates mostly to people who can already dance?
A bit of both.
I've never experienced any beginner coming in and saying let's forget about the dancing and give me 2 hours just on technique to warm me up please..
Noooo - but that's taking things to extremes. We do generally start beginners off with a small amount of technique / warm-up and basic connection work before introducing moves. Done right, we can give them a basic grounding, build some moves on top of that, and still send them away on a high - which is the part which helps with customer retention.
Walls are very useful, but technique is pointless (as you say) unless it's applied, and the easiest way to do that is to show the dynamics in action within the structure of a move.
However... if you introduce techniques as purely part of moves, there can often be too many different aspects for people to focus on, and specifics can easily get lost. The sugar-push is a good example - a deceptively simple move that is surprisingly difficult to learn or teach well. So if I want to stop people arm-leading it (for example) I generally find it much more effective to devise exercises in body-leading that work in isolation - the wall exercise being one good example - before putting all the pieces together.
straycat
16th-December-2010, 05:39 PM
I love the tumble drier !
Me too. Especially that lovely crisp feeling when you take the clothes out just after it stops, still lovely and hot from the drying process.
I honestly don't know how we coped without them.
Rocky
16th-December-2010, 06:31 PM
It seems like someone has got hold of Rocky's account. But it's someone sensible so I suggest they change the password and stop the stroppy, idiotic Rocky from ever coming here again :wink:
You've been saying that for about a year now Andy....:WetHaddock:
Rocky
16th-December-2010, 06:45 PM
...However... if you introduce techniques as purely part of moves, there can often be too many different aspects for people to focus on, and specifics can easily get lost. The sugar-push is a good example - a deceptively simple move that is surprisingly difficult to learn or teach well. So if I want to stop people arm-leading it (for example) I generally find it much more effective to devise exercises in body-leading that work in isolation - the wall exercise being one good example - before putting all the pieces together.
Ok, well I guess we look at it differently... If I use the basic step back as an example and teach it ensuring that people have good tension in their arm (so they don't stretch ther arm right out), you can teach that all day long as a technique, and they can do it perfectly without a partner. The moment they hold someone's hand they feel a need to move toward the point of connection and it all falls to pieces - even more so with a travelling return. My view therefore is that it's best taught as part of the move because they then fully experience it in real time with a partner.
IMO if you teach specifics and then combine them, the person is more likely to get confused as he/she is thinking about combining seperated techniques all at once. Whereas if you teach it holistically they better understand the connection between them.
But if it works for you and your pupils then that's all that matters..
Andy McGregor
16th-December-2010, 06:51 PM
You've been saying that for about a year now Andy....:WetHaddock:And it's still taking me by surprise :what:
Dreadful Scathe
16th-December-2010, 11:20 PM
I love the tumble drier !
The yoyo felt good when I first started.
i like the tumble drier too, very difficult move though (at least difficult move to make look good), awful for a beginner of course(thanks Dan the Man). Pretzels can look great i think, if you let them flow and put the syncopated pa-pow at the end (thanks Amir). And if there isnt a move called the "back to the future "- there should be :)
Prian
17th-December-2010, 02:42 AM
I think the move is called the half nelson. It involves the man turning so that his back is to the lady and his left arm behind his back in a half nelson, then bending at the waist and turning anti-clockwise 360.
Can anyone remember the name. Anyway, that was taught by Sylvie Coleman (Ceroc co-founder), as a beginners move. She must have had a lot of confidence in us.
Then again Viktor used to try and teach the beginners how to shimmy.:lol:
straycat
17th-December-2010, 12:55 PM
Ok, well I guess we look at it differently... If I use the basic step back as an example and teach it ensuring that people have good tension in their arm (so they don't stretch ther arm right out), you can teach that all day long as a technique, and they can do it perfectly without a partner. The moment they hold someone's hand they feel a need to move toward the point of connection and it all falls to pieces
Aye - most connection exercises that we use involve a partner. Interestingly, the first beginners' lessons I ever did with Ceroc always began with very simple a tension/compression exercise with a basic left to right handhold with your partner, just stepping in and out. At the time, I found it very useful - I don't know if anyone still does this though.
One of the issues I find with teaching all the technique within the move is that people pften have too many different things to think about to let them easily focus on one aspect. If I see a lot of people in a class making a particular mistake, and I try to get them to correct it, sometimes they won't be able to take it on board. One approach I might take to deal with this is to put the move aside for a moment, and create a quick exercise based around that one thing, get them to do it, then put it back into the move. I find this can be extremely effective.
But if it works for you and your pupils then that's all that matters..
It is a slightly different arena from MJ. On the whole, Lindyhoppers (and, come to think, Blues dancers) tend to expect more in the way of technique - as extreme examples, at one camp we spent three hours with one teacher on just one eight-count move, breaking it down, refining, honing, perfecting.... and at another, two hours were spent learning to walk across a room in slightly different ways. Which sounds nuts, but it was actually extremely difficult, and I did gain a lot from it.
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