From Ceroc to Lindy?

[smartie]

When I started dancing (Ceroc, 16 years ago) I would agree that there was an obvious path into lindy hop, simply because the vast majority of music played at Ceroc was rock'n'roll, jump-jive and jump-blues. In fact, the theme song for the first Ceroc 24-hour marathon was "Rock Around The Clock" (imagine that!!) One of the main reasons I liked Ceroc was the music being played. It was an alternative to clubbing (which I also did regularly - mostly at indie/goth venues).

Many lindy hoppers of the time went regularly to Ceroc events (and vice versa). The styles of dance were much closer (largely due to the music, but also because lindy hop in those days was being taught by ex-rock'n'roll dancers from clubs like 2i's - and the lindy hop being taught was largely the performance savoy style which suits jump-jive music in particular quite well.

Two things have happened since then - (1) the music played at Ceroc has changed dramatically so that very little music with any relationship to swing is now played [actually I believe that this is not true of some of Ceroc's competitors, and might well be a major reason that those competitors set up in the first place, but this is another discussion] - and (2) lindy hop has moved on substantially so that the cutting edge now rarely dances to rock'n'roll, jump-jive or jump-blues. We dance to swing-jazz, lounge and blues (Ellington style blues, not guitar-led blues beloved of WCS and 'swing' rooms at MJ events which is more accurately categorised as jump-blues).

So, to cut a long story short, I believe that the path from MJ to lindy hop has been cut not because of other opportunities to become a more advanced dancer (whatever that means) but because there is now a clear choice in the music one wants to dance to.

It is for this reason that Ceroc and lindy hop will never really work in the same venue - the dancers of one style just don't want to dance to the music of the other. If you disagree with this, then you are one of the people who should also learn the other style of dancing.

PS I was just about to post this and saw the comment about lindy hop being "too energetic" - yes, performance style savoy lindy is VERY energetic but the predominant style in the clubs is more relaxed than you would believe. Perhaps you need to try a different venue/teacher!

[Bill]

Originally posted by smartie
PS I was just about to post this and saw the comment about lindy hop being "too energetic" - yes, performance style savoy lindy is VERY energetic but the predominant style in the clubs is more relaxed than you would believe. Perhaps you need to try a different venue/teacher!


Oh it's not the teaching.......................it's the fact that anything over 10 bpm leaves in a lather :D ............that's why I prefer bluesy tracks....... I can stand still :D

[smartie]

:cheers: :D

[Gadget]

Originally posted by smartie
It was an alternative to clubbing (which I also did regularly - mostly at indie/goth venues).
Ever think that it would be cool to have a Ceroc theme night that played this stuff? Challenging, but fun.

[Emma]

Originally posted by smartie
It was an alternative to clubbing (which I also did regularly - mostly at indie/goth venues). *so* off topic but...I am trying to picture you with black hair, eyeliner and a very long black coat :what: :grin: Hee hee!


Originally posted by smartie I was just about to post this and saw the comment about lindy hop being "too energetic" - yes, performance style savoy lindy is VERY energetic but the predominant style in the clubs is more relaxed than you would believe. I'd been led to believe that Lindy was hyper-energetic (the word 'kicking' comes up alot...) - one of the things I loved about Sunday night was how relaxed the dancing seemed - less energetic than most Ceroc nights, certainly. :nice:


Originally posted by Gadget
Ever think that it would be cool to have a Ceroc theme night that played this stuff? Yes. :grin:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by smartie
It is for this reason that Ceroc and lindy hop will never really work in the same venue - the dancers of one style just don't want to dance to the music of the other. If you disagree with this, then you are one of the people who should also learn the other style of dancing.

I cannot speak for Lindy Hoppers, but in my experience MJ'ers will dance to just about anything. Our local Ceroc DJ looks at who is in and plays to them, and we get quite a few swing cross-overs in.

Lindy / swing / jitterbug/ ECS / WCS/ rock'n'roll are just ways of dancing, and MJ can be done enjoyably to the same music.

The thing I love most about MJ is its freedom, and I am against any attempt to pen it in.

I believe there was an attempt from Ceroc HQ to move towards more modern music, but "the tide comes in, the tide goes out ..."

[Rachel]

Originally posted by smartie
It is for this reason that Ceroc and lindy hop will never really work in the same venue - the dancers of one style just don't want to dance to the music of the other. If you disagree with this, then you are one of the people who should also learn the other style of dancing. I disagree .... Maybe I'm more of an exception or just plain weird - I love lindy music, but I modern jive to it and have no desire to learn lindy dancing. Maybe there really is a nice smooth lindy style (and I must make it to the 100 Club and other places sometime to see). But, so far, I've never seen anyone doing lindy at Camber, Hipsters, etc that makes me want to do it. Don't get me wrong, I do think that some people can look fantastic doing lindy, and I hugely admire them, but it's just not 'me'.
Rachel

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by smartie
[B].......Ceroc and lindy hop will never really work in the same venue - the dancers of one style just don't want to dance to the music of the other. /B]

Hipsters :confused:

JB does a great job of providing music for both, most advance/good MJ dancers can cope with swing music, providing it is not too fast:cheers:

[Boomer]

Been looking at the ‘100 club’, does something on a Monday night (which is handy) but it seems to be Lindy. What are the main differences between Lindy and this thing called Ceroc/MJ, and will doing a bit of Lindy confuse things with MJ?

In case you haven’t guessed, I’m absolutely clueless about dance :blush:

[Lou]

Originally posted by Gadget
Ever think that it would be cool to have a Ceroc theme night that played this stuff? Challenging, but fun.
Yes! :wink:

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Boomer
Been looking at the ‘100 club’, does something on a Monday night (which is handy) but it seems to be Lindy. What are the main differences between Lindy and this thing called Ceroc/MJ, and will doing a bit of Lindy confuse things with MJ?

In case you haven’t guessed, I’m absolutely clueless about dance :blush:

Next time you visit Hipsters on a Tuesday - check out Andy and Rena's class downstairs

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Minnie M
Next time you visit Hipsters on a Tuesday - check out Andy and Rena's class downstairs
Minnie, you make it sound ominous :what:

[smartie]

Hipsters
JB does a great job of providing music for both, most advance/good MJ dancers can cope with swing music, providing it is not too fast

Having DJ'd regularly at Camber, and also at the last Rock Bottoms, I suspect that it isn't what the majority of lindy hoppers call swing music nor want predominantly to dance to...

[that's not to say we wouldn't dance to it given nothing else as a choice]

...but so as not to jump to a conclusion, I wonder if you could list some songs/artists that are regularly played - and that you (or MJ'ers in general) consider to be swing? I do this out of genuine interest, not to make a point :)

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Boomer
will doing a bit of Lindy confuse things with MJ? Yes!

But don't worry, it will pass if you give it enough time!

If the 100 Club format is the same as it used to be when I went on Mondays (literally years ago), it starts with a nice simple (?) beginners lesson, freestyle, intermediate lesson, then freestyle with a live band.
But Boomer, you're not allowed to go, because it is a SMOKING VENUE!

Greg

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Sheepman
...
But Boomer, you're not allowed to go, because it is a SMOKING VENUE!
Greg

:what:yeahbut..but..yeahbut...:tears:

[smartie]

What are the main differences between Lindy and this thing called Ceroc/MJ, and will doing a bit of Lindy confuse things with MJ?

The below is an attempt to answer this, but in the end it really comes down to different ways of expressing different forms of music and both styles of dance are open to personalisation (yippee!) so this is necessarily a generalisation.

The differences are many and varied, but in terms of the dance it could be said that Ceroc/MJ generally emphasises upper-body movement and lindy hop lower-body movement.

This is probably because lindy hop is essentially an interpretive jazz dance and MJ is essentially a strict tempo rock'n'roll dance. Since the lead/follow is largely achieved through the upper body in any style of partner dance, improvisation is more easily achieved through the lower body - hips, legs, footwork patterns etc.

More intricate upper body leads are creeping into lindy hop but nonetheless it will I believe remain essentially a lower-body dance.

Lindy hop is also characterised by the 'breakaway' - where both partners are free to express themselves without the lead/follow but the common thread of the music remains. Traditionally it was this aspect that separated lindy hop from other styles.

It is probably true to say that the style of lindy hop most often taught in the UK to date has been based largely on choreography taken from films and old footage (e.g. Hellzapoppin') so what many people see as lindy hop is really only a small part of the dance as a whole.

Will it confuse things with MJ? - not necessarily but the leading and following techniques would seem to be very different.

[Boomer]

Originally posted by smartie
The below ...
Cheers, that gives me an idea of the differences, and where I can see my main 'problems' being, i.e footwork :grin: Having never see it, AFIN, does anyone have any links to the net with a few clips? I've searched, but found nowt.

[Demota]

One of the most fun party nights I ever attended was one of the Boogienights events at Marco's last year (the one where the Blues Sisters made their debut). This appeared to be a MJ meets Lindy event with dancers from Ceroc, Boogienights, Edinburgh Swing Dance Society and the University posse all in attendance and only too happy to shake their booty to anything going. There is a big overlap in the Edinburgh area with Ceroc and Lindy and it is very synergetic for each discipline. So, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.....

[smartie]

One of the most fun party nights I ever attended was one of the Boogienights events at Marco's last year (the one where the Blues Sisters made their debut). This appeared to be a MJ meets Lindy event with dancers from Ceroc, Boogienights, Edinburgh Swing Dance Society and the University posse all in attendance and only too happy to shake their booty to anything going. There is a big overlap in the Edinburgh area with Ceroc and Lindy and it is very synergetic for each discipline. So, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.....

But that requires a very open-minded crowd - if you've got that, GREAT! ...but my personal experience is that both crowd's are usually very fussy indeed about the music that's played, which is a real shame in my opinion. It's also symptomatic of the "dance every song" attitude - instead why not have a drink/chat when there's a song playing you don't like/want to dance to?

Well done Boogienights/Edinburgh, keep it up!

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by smartie
Well done Boogienights/Edinburgh, keep it up!

:cheers: absolutely - both Lindsay & Gill experts in both MJ and Lindy:cheers:

[MartinHarper]

There's nothing quite like dancing with a woman who does both MJ and Lindy. Best of both worlds. :)

[Lindsay]

The differences are many and varied, but in terms of the dance it could be said that Ceroc/MJ generally emphasises upper-body movement and lindy hop lower-body movement.

This is probably because lindy hop is essentially an interpretive jazz dance and MJ is essentially a strict tempo rock'n'roll dance.

Lindy hop is also characterised by the 'breakaway' - where both partners are free to express themselves without the lead/follow but the common thread of the music remains. Traditionally it was this aspect that separated lindy hop from other styles.

:yeah:
Well said smartie.
Have done 6yrs of MJ and 4yrs of lindy... and enjoy both for different reasons. My passion is for swing, because I love the lower body styling and the footwork. The music and self-expression pushes my buttons baby. :drool: I also love the elegance and poise of MJ, especially couples like Amir & Kate. In addition, the social/fun attitude of MJ is its strength, whereas the swing posse IMHO can be a bit cliquey. In Edinburgh, Brady & I teach a blend of boogie woogie and swing at the Jitterbug Club, and aim to keep it v. smooth. It is appealing to swing dancers and jivers. So yes, I think there's a big overlap and most people won't get confused! I think both MJ and swing are fab styles, and try to reflect this in BoogieNights classes and events. Many thanks for the kind words :hug: