Frame in pivot turns

[FirstMove]

At Breeze, Tim Sant said that if you do a pivot turn (penguin) with a ballroom hand-hold, then you should also use ballroom body shape: raising your arm and moving your elbow well away from your body. (He also said that with a normal MJ hand grip, tucked arms are permissible.)

I have never had any difficulty in doing fast pivot turns with my left arm tucked in on my left side. Following TS's advice, I've been experimenting with the position described above. Trouble is, the lady nearly always loses her frame when we turn at any speed. Typically she ends up moving closer to the centre of rotation and letting her right arm buckle.

Any advice?

FirstMove


PS I'm not interested in whether TS's style advice is right, just how to fast pivot turn with an extended left arm.

[alinp]

It's her responsibility to maintain her own frame, not yours!! I'd suggest if you feel her collapsing, then end the move.

[DavidY]

I try to maintain the frame with my right hand and arm - to the point where I can usually let go with my left altogether.

Then it shouldn't matter too much where my left hand is, because it isn't doing anything useful and is purely decorative. :wink:

[Tiggerbabe]

Ok, I'm confused, the important thing in the pivot turn, is your right arm, the ladies left arm should be resting on your right arm, with her left hand on your right shoulder, her right hand/arm is almost irrelevant as the most important issue regarding her frame is that she "gives" your her back. Her back should be given into your right hand, which should be behind her back. If she does this then you can lead the pivot turns without using your left hand/arm at all.

[frodo]

I try to maintain the frame with my right hand and arm - to the point where I can usually let go with my left altogether.

Then it shouldn't matter too much where my left hand is, because it isn't doing anything useful and is purely decorative
Hard work though, to maintain a rigid frame with just your right arm.


Ok, I'm confused, the important thing in the pivot turn, is your right arm, the ladies left arm should be resting on your right arm, with her left hand on your right shoulder, her right hand/arm is almost irrelevant as the most important issue regarding her frame is that she "gives" your her back. Her back should be given into your right hand, which should be behind her back. If she does this then you can lead the pivot turns without using your left hand/arm at all.
You can, but using the left hand gives a far more structurally sound framework.

Which may not matter matter at slow speeds, but if you want to put a lot of energy into high speed turns, it becomes a different matter.

[alinp]

You can, but using the left hand gives a far more structurally sound framework.

Which may not matter matter at slow speeds, but if you want to put a lot of energy into high speed turns, it becomes a different matter.

Sorry - I agree with Tiggerbabe. In fact, as speed increases, the right hand becomes more important as that's where the follows weight will be.

[frodo]

Sorry - I agree with Tiggerbabe. In fact, as speed increases, the right hand becomes more important as that's where the follows weight will be.
I'm struggling to understand what you're saying.

Are you saying as speed and energy increases the left hand matters less ?

[frodo]

At Breeze, Tim Sant said that if you do a pivot turn (penguin) with a ballroom hand-hold, then you should also use ballroom body shape: raising your arm and moving your elbow well away from your body. (He also said that with a normal MJ hand grip, tucked arms are permissible.)

I have never had any difficulty in doing fast pivot turns with my left arm tucked in on my left side. Following TS's advice, I've been experimenting with the position described above. Trouble is, the lady nearly always loses her frame when we turn at any speed. Typically she ends up moving closer to the centre of rotation and letting her right arm buckle..

No particular solution, but I'm curious if you're in body contact (upper leg to lower torso) when she loses the frame.

[alinp]

I'm struggling to understand what you're saying.

Are you saying as speed and energy increases the left hand matters less ?

From some of your comments it seems you've got some of this, but not all!!!

Key elements to good pivot turns are a common pivot point (i.e. connection at the thighs) and holding your frame with your follows weight in your RIGHT hand. By all means try it the other way round, but I reckon your girl will go flying off somewhere, never to be seen again!!

[TheTramp]

Are you saying as speed and energy increases the left hand matters less ?

Yes. In fact, I think that the left hand often pulls the followers away from where the frame should be. You really don't need it at all if you're doing it correctly.

[FirstMove]

Thanks for all you replies.

My problem is with fast pivot turns. With slow turns, I tend to release my left hand so I can waft it about and convince myself it's nicely styled.

To increase the angular speed, I find it necessary to reduce inertia by pulling the woman closer. I can't keep the woman at the right distance using only my right arm. Without my left hand blocking her, she tends to collapse the frame and move into the centre of the rotation.

As for thigh connection, it depends on the lady. I haven't noticed it making much difference.

FM.

[alinp]

Thanks for all you replies.

My problem is with fast pivot turns. With slow turns, I tend to release my left hand so I can waft it about and convince myself it's nicely styled.

To increase the angular speed, I find it necessary to reduce inertia by pulling the woman closer. I can't keep the woman at the right distance using only my right arm. Without my left hand blocking her, she tends to collapse the frame and move into the centre of the rotation.

As for thigh connection, it depends on the lady. I haven't noticed it making much difference.

FM.

Hi FM

I'll go back to my last post on this subject. If you're looking for speed, you really have to make that common pivot point at the thigh so that you and your partner are rotating around the same point. Try watching others doing fast pivots - I think you'll find that they actually get slightly further away (top half) as the inetia created forces the follows weight away from the centre point, hence the need to hold a strong frame with your right hand being key to this. As The Tramp says, the left hand isn't really needed.

Pulling her in is working against basic physics - so, as Scotty would say, "you canna break the laws of physics" :nice:

[frodo]

From some of your comments it seems you've got some of this, but not all!!!

Key elements to good pivot turns are a common pivot point (i.e. connection at the thighs) and holding your frame with your follows weight in your RIGHT hand. By all means try it the other way round, but I reckon your girl will go flying off somewhere, never to be seen again!!Of course the right hand is essential. That isn't the question.

I assume by thanking TheTramps clear reply that is what you mean ?

[alinp]

Of course the left hand is essential. That isn't the question.

I assume by thanking TheTramps clear reply that is what you mean ?

I thanked The Tramps post as I agree with him - the left hand in NOT essential. As he says "You really don't need it at all if you're doing it correctly".

[frodo]

I thanked The Tramps post as I agree with him - the left hand in NOT essential. As he says "You really don't need it at all if you're doing it correctly".

Sorry - due to my posting error, so I'm still no clearer what you're saying.

As in yes or no to the following:-

Are you saying as speed and energy increases the left hand matters less ?


I completely agree the left hand is not essential.

The question is whether it helps or hinders as speed and/or rotational energy increases.

[TheTramp]

In fact, what I said was that it sometimes is not just not needed, but people who use it too much, it can be detrimental.

If I'm balanced enough with my partner, I can start the move as pivot turns, and end it up as an actual spin. For that, you need good thigh connection, and a counter-balance, achieved by a strong right hand pulling the frame together, to counter the fact that the physics of the move are pulling you apart.

[alinp]

Are you saying as speed and energy increases the left hand matters less ?





In fact, what I said was that it sometimes is not just not needed, but people who use it too much, it can be detrimental.

If I'm balanced enough with my partner, I can start the move as pivot turns, and end it up as an actual spin. For that, you need good thigh connection, and a counter-balance, achieved by a strong right hand pulling the frame together, to counter the fact that the physics of the move are pulling you apart.

:yeah:

I think Tramp has summed it up nicely - although I'd say it's about having a strong right hand to "hold" the frame, rather than pulling together, however the feeling may actually be one of slightly pulling as there is increased force acting outwards. Again, it's all just physics really.

[FirstMove]

...Try watching others doing fast pivots - I think you'll find that they actually get slightly further away (top half) as the inetia created forces the follows weight away from the centre point, hence the need to hold a strong frame with your right hand being key to this...

But I don't know anyone who does fast pivot turns with an extended left arm!

I can already pivot turn faster than I can spot, just so long as I have a tucked-in left hand. It's only when I lift it up ballroom-stylee that the lady's frame collapses.

Maybe I should stop trying to find new dance challenges and stick to what I know :blush:

[Gav]

But I don't know anyone who does fast pivot turns with an extended left arm!

I do sometimes, although I should say that it's not an extended left arm or strict ballroom grip, but sometimes I hold my left hand high with a flexed, not rigid, left arm. Sometimes I hold my left hand down by my side. Depends who I'm dancing with, music etc.

[Tiggerbabe]

I can already pivot turn faster than I can spot, just so long as I have a tucked-in left hand. It's only when I lift it up ballroom-stylee that the lady's frame collapses.

Are you maybe (unintentionally) pulling her towards you with your left hand, taking your left hand/arm back behind your shoulder?

As Trampy has already mentioned:

In fact, I think that the left hand often pulls the followers away from where the frame should be.

[ant]

....if you do a pivot turn (penguin) with a ballroom hand-hold, then you should also use ballroom body shape: raising your arm and moving your elbow well away from your body. (He also said that with a normal MJ hand grip, tucked arms are permissible.)


Are you talking about a clockwise or anti clock wise turn?

I agree with the comments that the left arm is not so important for a clockwise turn . However to increase the speed of the turn I would say holding your left arm at right angles to your shoulder and allowing the left shoulder to lead the turn rather than the right shoulder does increase the speed of the turn.

I find for an anticlockwise turn a raised left arm in the pivot can sometimes help the follower. I find that if I hold my left arm at right angles from my shoulder with more tension than I normally would this acts as a support for the follower.

[robd]

I'd suggest avoiding an extended left arm during pivots purely on the grounds that at 90% of venues in this country you'll end up whacking another couple dancing with it.

[TheTramp]

I'd suggest avoiding an extended left arm during pivots purely on the grounds that at 90% of venues in this country you'll end up whacking another couple dancing with it.

Not necessarily a bad thing, depending on who you're dancing next to! :whistle:

[Lory]

I absolutely love pivot turns and I have a very naughty habbit of 'assisting' the lead to go 'faster'! :yum::D

[Lory]

Oh and its also fun to lock knees, then you can go even faster :devil:

[Gav]

I absolutely love pivot turns and I have a very naughty habbit of 'assisting' the lead to go 'faster'! :yum::D


Oh and its also fun to lock knees, then you can go even faster :devil:

It's been a while since we danced, but yes, that sounds familiar! :worthy:

[Lost Leader]

I absolutely love pivot turns and I have a very naughty habbit of 'assisting' the lead to go 'faster'! :yum::D

Naughty....but nice!

[jim]

I can already pivot turn faster than I can spot, :blush:

Don't quote me, but I don't think your supposed to spot in a ballroom turn like that.

That's to say, I just checked out a ballroom clip and the lead seems to be spotting over his left shoulder everytime. So that's left to centre, left to centre. Don't turn your head left to right, left to right as some people do.

This tends to throw the center of turn and also if you both do it at the same time you'll end up banging heads in the middle.

[Lory]

Don't quote me


:devil::whistle:

[frodo]

But I don't know anyone who does fast pivot turns with an extended left arm!

I can already pivot turn faster than I can spot, just so long as I have a tucked-in left hand. It's only when I lift it up ballroom-stylee that the lady's frame collapses.

Maybe I should stop trying to find new dance challenges and stick to what I know :blush:I've found Tim Sant on the DVD quite helpful in illustrating the issue (if unintentionally) - I'm assuming the Jiversity masterclass, so I've got a hypothesis to fit the different things I and other posters have said.


The first time he shows it, he uses an extended left arm. It looks fairly awful and the only functional thing it could be doing is pulling the lady off balance.

The second time he explains the main thing you need to remember is the right arm. He uses the right arm only and it looks fine.

His comment relayed by FirstMove, on not just using the ballroom hold, makes a lot of sense in light of those examples.



AlinP touched on what I reckon may be the main issue.

The reason why the extended left arm is more than pointless is that Tim Sant is so close to his partner in the upper body. It looks like contact made is almost head to toe, with Tim Sant even being hunched over his partner.

If rather than a cylinder shape, they were leaning away from each other, in a top rather than cyclinder type shape the left arm becomes structurally significant (assuming some frame).

So essentially it is necessary to lean away (though not just because of the centri... forces).


I'd be interested to see if the people who've posted that it doesn't matter would still be of that opinion given a top shape.

So perhaps once your upper torsos are too close the ballroom hold is never going to work.



Where to go next may depend on what you're looking for. If you're just looking for rpm you may never spin quite as fast as a cylinder shape.

However if you take a top shape, with body contact at the legs / lower torso and both partners leaning away at the upper torso.
(plus a good complete left and right hand frame).

You can really put an awful lot of energy into it, because you've got lots of control (like a Ferrari can go fast because of the brakes).

So you probably cannot get the RPM but the greater angular momentum, may mean the whoosh feeling is more than comparable.



Any agreements / disagreements ?

[frodo]

To increase the angular speed, I find it necessary to reduce inertia by pulling the woman closer. I can't keep the woman at the right distance using only my right arm. Without my left hand blocking her, she tends to collapse the frame and move into the centre of the rotation.


The first time he shows it, he uses an extended left arm. It looks fairly awful and the only functional thing it could be doing is pulling the lady off balance.

The second time he explains the main thing you need to remember is the right arm. He uses the right arm only and it looks fine.

I've had a look at the Splash DVD and Tim Sant does the same class again.

He demos the pivot turn a third way.


The lady is close on his right hand side but not on his left hand side.

In a way it is more like Tango with an open and closed side to the embrace (essentially a V shape but with leaders left arm / followers right arm out and high).


A V shape isn't something that would have occurred to me, but it looks much better than his earlier example with a raised left hand and doesn't look like it would pull the lady off balance.

[Lory]

It's been a while since we danced, but yes, that sounds familiar! :worthy:

Remember now? :D:whistle:

[Neu Wien]

I'm quite tall (as in, nearly 2 metres). Therefore, whenever I read things concerning contact at the hips, thighs whatever, I automatically think, right, not going to happen. Does anyone have tips on how or if I may still be able to make this move work?

[MarkW]

I'm quite tall (as in, nearly 2 metres). Therefore, whenever I read things concerning contact at the hips, thighs whatever, I automatically think, right, not going to happen. Does anyone have tips on how or if I may still be able to make this move work?

Well, as very much a non-expert, just maybe.

When I do this move, which I have been introduced to as the penguin, the things I am thinking of are:

- I try to rotate around a right foot that turns when it is its turn to step but does not wander from a fixed point (sounds easy but I do sometimes travel a bit)
- I like to keep my right hand at the lady's left shoulder blade area. If you keep your hand with the fingers horizontal then this would mean your middle finger is on top of the lady's bra stap. Better dancers than me put their right hand more towards the shoulder (heel of hand not quite in arm pit). Sorry for using layman's language, I don't know better technical terms.
- It feels nice (to me, subjectively) if my right elbow is raised to about the same level as my right hand with the lady's left arm resting gently on my right arm.
- I do use the left hand but quite passively. All it has to do is be in contact with the lady's right hand in a ballroom type hold and remain steady in relation to the rest of me i.e. as I turn, my left arm is rigid no matter where my left hand is. Being as tall as you are you probably need to have a noticeably bent left elbow to allow your partner's right arm to be comfortable. I think I'm aiming for having my left hand at lady's shoulder height - not 100% sure if I'm really doing that.

That allows a decent effort even if, for whatever reason, the inner right thighs aren't making definite contact. This contact does help but is not always easy to achieve.

Anyway, I hope some of that is helpful or sparks a new idea that works for you :nice: It is a lovely move when it goes well.

[alinp]

I'm quite tall (as in, nearly 2 metres). Therefore, whenever I read things concerning contact at the hips, thighs whatever, I automatically think, right, not going to happen. Does anyone have tips on how or if I may still be able to make this move work?

It all still applies, however the chances are the contact point on you (and me - I'm 6'6") will be slightly lower (i.e. lower thigh) :nice:

[Neu Wien]

Thanks guys, I got busy with things and couldn't check back here for a while, but those tips sound helpful. I'll keep trying, it looks like such a fun move, though every time I try it just doesn't feel right. But good to hear there's still hope!