How solid are your dancers?

[Martin]

Something that has raised it's head in Aussie land recently being how grounded in ceroc (solid) are the dancers.

Many dancers here do a few beginners classes and think they are ready for the intermediate lesson, which makes the intermediate rows, if nothing else "challenging".

Hence we have dancers who have danced for some time doing advanced routines and lessons who really have not mastered the basics.
(somehting commented upon by some of the teachers and observed first hand by myself).

Whilst we do not want to discorage dancers in thier first few months, should we not be concerned about basic levels.

In NZ, they have to pass a test to progress to the next class (from what Hamish told me anyway).

In Newcastle (the NSW Newcastle) they have what I reccon to be a brilliant sytem.

Beginners need to demonstrate that they can execute the 16 basic beginers moves by going through them with the teacher, ALSO they have to dance to a complete track and include a minimum of 6 beginner moves with a teacher demonstrating lead or follow techniques.

Then they can pass onto intermediate B classes (non dips and drops) - if they are sucessful at a dips and drops workshop they can progress to intermediate A.

End result being thier dancers are GREAT to dance with and I remain injury free when visiting Newcastle venues.

In Sydney, to not "upset people" they have a more relaxed approach - which IMHO has lowered the standard of the dancers coming through.

One of our top teachers in Sydney freely admits he spent 3 months in beginners and the beginners consolidation classes before moving on.

[psyc0diver]

Originally posted by Martin
Something that has raised it's head in Aussie land recently being how grounded in ceroc (solid) are the dancers.

Beginners need to demonstrate ...basic beginers moves ... with a teacher demonstrating lead or follow techniques.


Could be amusing if Franck had to 'grade' a bunch of guys ! :D



Originally posted by Martin

Beginners need to demonstrate that they can execute the 16 basic beginers moves by going through them with the teacher, ALSO they have to dance to a complete track and include a minimum of 6 beginner moves with a teacher demonstrating lead or follow techniques.


But more seriously, some people may be intimidated by going through an exam & you may find the attrition rate amongst beginners going up, though the general quality of dancers may improve

[Martin]

Originally posted by psyc0diver
Could be amusing if Franck had to 'grade' a bunch of guys ! :D




But more seriously, some people may be intimidated by going through an exam & you may find the attrition rate amongst beginners going up, though the general quality of dancers may improve

Franck's top demoer could do that with Franck watching.

It provides an early target, and they also could get an intermediate level certificate?

100%, quality of dancers do improve, from my observations.

They did have one case where someone from another dance organisation had been dancing for a while and they told him he had to do the test, he was indignant and left (they did explain the concept and the reason) - [they could also see that he really needed to get the basics] well 3 weeks later he was back, did the hard yards, and since then has been ever thankfull and is now a regular.

[Jon]

I'm all for the test even though there will be people who dont want to do it. But if it helps keep the standard of the intermediate class at a good level then I'm all for that. What annoys me is when people go straight into the intermediate class who are clearly not ready for it. It means me as the leader having to pull them round the dance floor while trying to learn the moves myself. And I've heard ladies complaining about men who are dangerous because they dont know the basics.

So going back to another thread the standard of dancers doing the intermediate class would be another reason why some of us sit it out and chat.

Personnaly I did 6 weeks of normal classes and 4 beginner workshops before moving on to intermediates just to get the basics perfected.

[Paul F]

Thanks for explaining that Martin. I knew there was some sort of exam structure in place over there but wasn't too sure how it worked.


Fundamentally, it goes against all that (IMHO) ceroc stands for which is social, friendly and fun dancing without the pressures of grades etc. BUT........

I think its a very good idea!!!!

I know i will more than likely get flamed for saying that but i really do believe it is something that 'could' be beneficial if organised correctly.

The dancers would have to have the reason behind it explained to them well but i think it would give everybody the chance to improve ten-fold, especially new people.

It will, however, turn many people off but if it is run correctly (ie still have an open beginners class etc) I think, in the long run, we would see progress.
People have been crying out for inter/adv classes over here for some time but i still maintain that we cannot have them (and for them to be successful) without a structure like this.

If ceroc introduce advanced classes you will get a greater and greater number of people dancing with fixed partners. Not what i want to see.

I also think it would keep the interest up. If the teacher's people skills are up to the job they can point out the reasons why they cannot progress at that time, in a friendly and constructive way. That would give the dancer something to focus on and work with. I wish i had that when i started.

[DavidB]

Ceroc in the UK used to be like this. I remember one lady having to dance with James Cronin because he believed that 2 beginners lessons wasn't enough to progress to intermediate classes. (In this particular case he was wrong!)

I'm quite happy for beginners to try the intermediate class. But I almost think there should be a separate row for them. Not just for them - get some of the better dancers to join in this row, with instructions to help as much as possible. Then maybe any good technique might get passed around.

[Martin]

Originally posted by DavidB
Ceroc in the UK used to be like this. I remember one lady having to dance with James Cronin because he believed that 2 beginners lessons wasn't enough to progress to intermediate classes. (In this particular case he was wrong!)

I'm quite happy for beginners to try the intermediate class. But I almost think there should be a separate row for them. Not just for them - get some of the better dancers to join in this row, with instructions to help as much as possible. Then maybe any good technique might get passed around.

Might work if the intermediate class is basic, and the moves explained at a slow pace. (dumbed down) + of course no dips or drops.
Why ruin the intermediate class for the intermediates?

I am one of those people who sit out of the intemediate classes in Sydney so as not to get injured by beginners (or those who never suppassed beginner level in thier basic skills) who cannot follow correctly and worse still start leading you.

This does not happen in NSW Newcastle http://www.mamboroc.com as people have learnt lead and follow and the correct basics before coming to the next class. This makes it safe for all and increases the fun aspect as you can relax and enjoy.

IMHO doing 50 moves badly do not make a good beginner.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Martin
Might work if the intermediate class is basic, and the moves explained at a slow pace. (dumbed down) + of course no dips or drops.I've never equated the 'speed' of a class with its 'level'. The hardest classes I've done have generally covered just one topic.
I'd be interested to know how Donna is getting on in Australia. She originally wanted to slow down her classes, and teach less moves but in more detail. But from the classes we saw, the 'standard' seemed to be 4 or 5 moves taught very quickly, with lots of repetition.

I'd rather beginners do the consolidation class a few times rather than move straight to intermediate. But even after doing this, some people might like a more gentle introduction to the intermediate class. I know the first one I did almost blew my mind.

Perhaps 'beginners' was the wrong term - 'prospective intermediates' would have been better.


IMHO doing 50 moves badly do not make a good beginner. It doesn't make a good intermediate either.

[Martin]

Originally posted by DavidB
I've never equated the 'speed' of a class with its 'level'. The hardest classes I've done have generally covered just one topic.
I'd be interested to know how Donna is getting on in Australia. She originally wanted to slow down her classes, and teach less moves but in more detail. But from the classes we saw, the 'standard' seemed to be 4 or 5 moves taught very quickly, with lots of repetition.




I was not equating speed and level either, and yes I thinking of the 4 to 5 moves or more taught quickly (not my personal favorite)

[spindr]

Isn't the *real* problem that there's no public syllabus available -- either explaining the techniques to be covered, and the moves to be covered -- for whichever level. Even on a per-venue basis it would be helpful.

At least the ballroom crowd can refer to IDTA/ISTD to see what constitutes a social, bronze, or other levels of dancing -- that certainly didn't make any ballroom classes I've been to unsociable.

So, here's a suggestion: improver has knowledge of techniques and moves presented in (*) "Learn To Dance Modern Jive" [Sigma Press], able to apply them and dance freestyle to 140-160bpp 4/4 music. [(*) Fill in your own publication here, this was the first one I found on the bookshelf]

SpinDr.

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Martin
In Newcastle (the NSW Newcastle) they have what I reccon to be a brilliant sytem.

Beginners need to demonstrate that they can execute the 16 basic beginers moves by going through them with the teacher, ALSO they have to dance to a complete track and include a minimum of 6 beginner moves with a teacher demonstrating lead or follow techniques.

From what I've seen up here, the way taxi dancers work with beginners is changing a bit. Perhaps something voluntary like the above could be incorporated into that.

It would require something of a culture shift here though, to start formal vetting of any sort. I know it would have put me off. Someone mentioned ballroom - MJ appears to be considerably more popular than ballroom in the UK and if you started introducing formal tests, I suspect MJ would become just as popular as ballroom here... I think someone's said this before but it's worth repeating.

My own experience in learning, it took me several lessons at intermediate level before I was in any way competent (frequently dropping out of the class part way through). I'm sure a few ladies at the time suffered :sorry. No-one advised me about whether I was able to move on and I probably wasn't. However, the beginner's lesson no longer seemed to be a challenge and I would have become discouraged at having to persevere. Not my attitude now, but I might have given up altogether at the time due to frustration. Nowadays I can always find something worthwhile in a beginner's class (which maybe we should call a basics class incidentally?) .

[Paul F]

Would I be right in thinking that the reason ceroc is so much more popular than ballroom (and others) is because it is SO much easier to learn.

I cant really see the fact that ballroom having a syllabus and exams is detremental to its success. Its simply a more technically exact art. Ive had to live my whole life living with ballroom teachers (my parents :sad: ) and from watching the tuition, the comparisons between that and ceroc are worlds apart.

I think ceroc + a syllabus is the best of both worlds.

[Gadget]

I would only advocate a "syllabus" for basic (beginner) dancing that would cover the twelve or so basic moves and introduce elements of style, musical interpritation, floorcraft and lead/follow.

I know that Ceroc have "Flash cards" for the basic moves, but I think that similar for an introduction to the above topics would be advantageous.

SpinDr/Paul F: Can you define what your definition of a "syllabus" as it relates to classes would be? I have a feeling that I dissagree with some points, but I may be getting the wrong idea.

{Btw my experiance of moving from only doing beginners class to the intermediate was after a couple of weeks of taxi-dancers telling me I should: I was reluctant more because of the teacher's "you must have been dancing 6-8 weeks" speil than the moves or my abilities.}

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Gadget


SpinDr/Paul F: Can you define what your definition of a "syllabus" as it relates to classes would be? I have a feeling that I dissagree with some points, but I may be getting the wrong idea.



I must confess that im using the word 'syllabus' without actually thinking about its meaning as such.
By syllabus, i really meant following some of the ideas mentioned above about NZ ceroc. Getting the beginners to freestyle incorporating 6+ moves / getting them to demonstrate all 16 moves.

Above and beyond that I would not be able to suggest additional points without really sitting down and weighing the pros and cons but to watch someone do the 16 moves you can tell if they are proficient enough or not to advance.
(you can probably do this from 2 or 3 moves!)


I could be wrong. Maybe it is impossible to generate a syllabus but i feel it should be, given the right amount of effort to draw one up. Otherwise we will continue to get people in the intermediate classes that simply cant cope which hampers everyone else to varying extents.

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Paul F
I must confess that im using the word 'syllabus' without actually thinking about its meaning as such.
By syllabus, i really meant following some of the ideas mentioned above about NZ ceroc. Getting the beginners to freestyle incorporating 6+ moves / getting them to demonstrate all 16 moves.

Above and beyond that I would not be able to suggest additional points without really sitting down and weighing the pros and cons but to watch someone do the 16 moves you can tell if they are proficient enough or not to advance.
(you can probably do this from 2 or 3 moves!)


I could be wrong. Maybe it is impossible to generate a syllabus but i feel it should be, given the right amount of effort to draw one up. Otherwise we will continue to get people in the intermediate classes that simply cant cope which hampers everyone else to varying extents.


:devil: :devil: Well I have been only dancing ceroc 10yrs and doubt if I would be ready to advance on that criteria. I gave up ballroom because of the 'syllabus' and instead of having 300 in a ceroc class we had 15 or 20.

There has always been people who are not ready for intermediate
90% drop out if they find out they are. re 10% they probably never will be !

[spindr]

Originally posted by Gadget SpinDr/Paul F: Can you define what your definition of a "syllabus" as it relates to classes would be? I have a feeling that I dissagree with some points, but I may be getting the wrong idea.

(0). What's a beginners' move? Different franchises / classes have different ideas:

E.g. http://www.elmgrove-leroc.co.uk/Moves_Beginner.htm lists: Arch, Hatchback, Push-Pull, Basket, Ladies Spin, Secret Move, Short Butterfly, Loophole, Closed Sway, Change Places, Neckbreak, Windmill, Figure Eight, Nigel's Move, Wurlitzer, First Move, Overhead Change, Yo-Yo

Whereas http://www.eutek.co.uk/jive!/moves.htm lists: Arm Jive, Basket, Catapult, Comb, First Move, Half Windmill, Hatchback, Lady Spin, Man Spin, Octopus, Push Spin, Shoulder Slide, Side to Side, Step Across, Wurlitzer, Yo-Yo (Plus variations :) )

(i). You can get some idea of what you might be taught in a class -- really useful for workshops, or classes you don't normally go to, etc. E.g. is class A's improvers ~=~ class B's intermediates?
(ii). You can tell whether you've covered enough to swap/try classes -- I think that for every pushy beginner in the improvers class, there's a shrinking improver in the beginner's class. I know the pushy beginner won't bother reading a "checklist" but it might reassure a shrinking improver that they actually know what's expected of them.
(iii). From a pseudo-academic viewpoint an ISBN makes a nice reference -- anyone can acquire a copy.

SpinDr.

[Gadget]

OK; a syllabus to me is a list of subjects/topics to be covered by a course of lessons, generally in a specified order.

The only thing I really have a problem with here is in strictly defining the order in which the information is dispersed.

Unless you are talking about having people jump through the hoops as dictated by the syllabus before they can taste the "next level". This I do have a problem with.

By all means, have published targets and goals that beginner dancers would be able to "check off". But to have other people (no matter how good or qualified) sit on high and judge you worthy or not is a big step towards elitism & segregation {IMHO}.

Personally, I have no issues with beginners ladies joining in intermediate classes:
* If they get another beginner, they can compare notes and work together to attempt the moves- As long as communication is good, it will build closer social ties.
* If they get an improver then they may be confused by what their partner is doing, but it will serve as a comparison for later dances.
The improver lead can use the reactions of the beginner to gauge how they are doing and what areas of their lead need work.
* If they get an advanced dancer, they will see what the moves should be like and the advanced lead gets a chance to make their lead as clear as possible.

So why do you need an exam again?

{SpinDr: Your concept seems to be completely moves orientated - if it was to be implemented, I would hope that a brief note on floor craft, dangerous moves, leading/following and musical interpritation was included in the check-list.}

[Gus]

Originally posted by Gadget
OK; a syllabus to me is a list of subjects/topics to be covered by a course of lessons, generally in a specified order.

All Ceroc clubs have a defined specification for Beginners moves (and 'basic' intermediate moves). The fun would start when it came to assess your class. At the class I teach, out of the 130 or so in the intermediate lesson, I'd say no more than half are doing their basics right. If I go to the local independents, I reckon that drops to nearer 20%:tears: Now ... who is going to tell these people that technically their dancing sucks:what:

Sorry if the above is a bit blunt ... too tired to put into polite english:blush:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Paul F
Would I be right in thinking that the reason ceroc is so much more popular than ballroom (and others) is because it is SO much easier to learn.

It's a reason, though the basics of waltz and quickstep aren't at all difficult to pick up - and just like beginner Cerocers, you don't have to have fab lead/follow skills to get round the floor in one piece. Foxtrot and Tango are harder, certainly, IMHO. To do them well, not that I ever did, is a lot harder. :tears:

But it's not just that.

Ballroom music is much less popular. Very occasionally there's something in 3/4 time that would be waltzable. Quickstep and foxtrot less so, arguably, at least without forcing them on to unnatural music that just happens to be at the right speed. The so-called "strict-tempo" ballroom music has been around for about a million years, and IMHO it sounds like it too. It just wouldn't appeal much to the 20-40+ crowd that constitutes most of the MJ crowd.

Latin music would probably sound a bit groovier to us :D youngsters, but more than about 2 cha chas in a row always used to drive me mad. Ballroom jive music needs to have quite a rock-n-roll vibe for it to feel (or look I expect) any good, so it's far more limiting than MJ-able tracks.

At risk of generalising horrendously, the people seem to fall into two camps: the young, competitive ones (the uni ballroom scene is still pretty healthy I believe), and er, those that aren't - and haven't been for a looooong time :devil: . I may be out of date, though - so please correct me, anyone that knows better.

Though there are some ballroom and ex-ballroom dancers on the MJ scene that fall into neither camp. The only one of them I've had a ballroom dance with put me to shame, and would have done even if it wasn't nearly 20 years since I'd done any of it "for real" as it were. I'd love to give it another bash, but I suspect it's mostly nostalgia talking.

Chris

[spindr]

Originally posted by Gadget
{SpinDr: Your concept seems to be completely moves orientated - if it was to be implemented, I would hope that a brief note on floor craft, dangerous moves, leading/following and musical interpritation was included in the check-list.}

Nah, sorry the problem is it's too easy to single out moves as the differences between levels.

Obviously, the first thing to introduce is floorcraft. You reinforce it in improvers. And understand it later in intermediates, or later.

Similarly, body position, how not to damage your partner, smiling :), linking moves in freestyle (or how not to do 29 first moves in a row), improvisation, musicality, starting (without an armjive/firstmove), etc.

SpinDr.

[spindr]

Originally posted by ChrisA
At risk of generalising horrendously, the people seem to fall into two camps: the young, competitive ones (the uni ballroom scene is still pretty healthy I believe), and er, those that aren't - and haven't been for a looooong time :devil: . I may be out of date, though - so please correct me, anyone that knows better.

Well, Eric's class in Bristol used to have a lot of Modern Jiver's who went along (http://www.dancematrix.com/bristol/content.asp)
it defnititely wasn't uni based (but it was still popular).

SpinDr.

[frodo]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Ballroom music is much less popular. Very occasionally there's something in 3/4 time that would be waltzable. Quickstep and foxtrot less so, arguably, at least without forcing them on to unnatural music that just happens to be at the right speed. The so-called "strict-tempo" ballroom music has been around for about a million years, and IMHO it sounds like it too. It just wouldn't appeal much to the 20-40+ crowd that constitutes most of the MJ crowd.

Latin music would probably sound a bit groovier to us :D youngsters, but more than about 2 cha chas in a row always used to drive me mad. Ballroom jive music needs to have quite a rock-n-roll vibe for it to feel (or look I expect) any good, so it's far more limiting than MJ-able tracks.



There is perhaps an argument that better DJ'ing could do a lot here. There seem to be many experts in music involved in the Modern Jive arena, so the general standard of DJ'ing may be much higher.

Also a ballroom (&latin) DJ only needs to find a fraction of the number of tracks for each dance a modern jive DJ would need to.

I never really understood the rationale for the 'strict tempo' thing, but agree the music tagged with it is from a completely different era, and very off-putting.




Originally posted by ChrisA

At risk of generalising horrendously, the people seem to fall into two camps: the young, competitive ones (the uni ballroom scene is still pretty healthy I believe), and er, those that aren't - and haven't been for a looooong time :devil: . I may be out of date, though - so please correct me, anyone that knows better.


I'd agree with that. I thought ballroom (&latin) was plain unpopular (other than at uni), but was surprised to learn that the tea dances in London, much more than in evening dances, can get good numbers.

[cali]

We actually have an improvers level at my studio. Is that not universal??? We have a dance card with which we are required to take 5 beginning lessons and then be evaluated by a teacher. They authorise you to move up. Then you have to take 5 improvers before you are evaluated again to move up into the intermediate level. Some are authorised, some are asked to stay within their level for various reasons.

It seems to give the instructors a bit of control over who is in what classes and therefore not have the problem of some students holding a class back. I have a friend who has been in intermediate level for over a year now, I believe!

The test is to first execute the patterns you learned in the class that night and then to freestyle a variety of moves to show that you have learned them and learned them correctly.

[Paul F]

Originally posted by cali
We actually have an improvers level at my studio. Is that not universal??? We have a dance card with which we are required to take 5 beginning lessons and then be evaluated by a teacher. They authorise you to move up. Then you have to take 5 improvers before you are evaluated again to move up into the intermediate level. Some are authorised, some are asked to stay within their level for various reasons.

It seems to give the instructors a bit of control over who is in what classes and therefore not have the problem of some students holding a class back. I have a friend who has been in intermediate level for over a year now, I believe!

The test is to first execute the patterns you learned in the class that night and then to freestyle a variety of moves to show that you have learned them and learned them correctly.


My obvious next question is......................how popular is ceroc in NZ. I guess this will answer my question once and for all?

If its popular then i would love to see it here.

Trouble is changing now it has been implemented the other way. People hate change. If it was something that was started from the beginning then thats different.

I wouldnt mind a poll to see how many people on this forum (assumed at least slightly experienced dancers) would prefer to go to a class/freestyle night where the regulars are trained and taught in this, more scrutinised way............

........good dancers attract good dancers??

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Martin
Something that has raised it's head in Aussie land recently being how grounded in ceroc (solid) are the dancers.

Many dancers here do a few beginners classes and think they are ready for the intermediate lesson, which makes the intermediate rows, if nothing else "challenging".

Hence we have dancers who have danced for some time doing advanced routines and lessons who really have not mastered the basics.
(somehting commented upon by some of the teachers and observed first hand by myself).

Whilst we do not want to discorage dancers in thier first few months, should we not be concerned about basic levels.

In NZ, they have to pass a test to progress to the next class (from what Hamish told me anyway).


In Newcastle (the NSW Newcastle) they have what I reccon to be a brilliant sytem.

Beginners need to demonstrate that they can execute the 16 basic beginers moves by going through them with the teacher, ALSO they have to dance to a complete track and include a minimum of 6 beginner moves with a teacher demonstrating lead or follow techniques.

Then they can pass onto intermediate B classes (non dips and drops) - if they are sucessful at a dips and drops workshop they can progress to intermediate A.

End result being thier dancers are GREAT to dance with and I remain injury free when visiting Newcastle venues.

In Sydney, to not "upset people" they have a more relaxed approach - which IMHO has lowered the standard of the dancers coming through.



Martin Hi when I last came to your part of the world in March 2002 I went to Perth, Sydney and Melbourne and did Ceroc in all three places.

Perth is run by a fellow ex pat pom Chris Dodd who at the time had just started it up over there, and it was developing, I still keep in touch with him occasionally.

Now in Sydney I went to the Woolamaloo venue and a chap called Luke Kudric was teaching that night. It was a one off, and I turned up did the beginners class. As Luke started his intermediate class, he turned his Mic off walked over to me and had a chat about how many ceroc lessons I had done. Upon explanation (I had been dancing 18 months at the time), he was fine and showed me some useful bits as well.

In Melbourne Caterina danced with me and checked that I was up to scratch for the second lesson - I passed with flying colours.

I got warm welcome from you guys by the way.

Certainly though the standard for the intermediates is higher than here, they want the beginners moves done properly.




:grin:

[bigdjiver]

This all looks like getting closer to Ballroom and further from the people.:tears:

[LilyB]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
This all looks like getting closer to Ballroom and further from the people.:tears: Yep. That's why I gave up ballroom dancing years ago. Please, let's not go down that road! :tears:

[Rachel]

Originally posted by LilyB
Yep. That's why I gave up ballroom dancing years ago. Please, let's not go down that road! :tears: Hmmm, I'm not really so sure. I am against formal exams which would catergorise people, worry them, put them off going, or generally take the fun out of it. But it really does seem to be a problem that so many men want to do the intermediate before they can do the basics properly.

I liked it when I did salsa and you had to be invited by the teacher to move up to the intermediate level. It was nothing formal, you didn't even have to dance with her (though maybe the men did) - she just subtley walked up to you and suggested you might like to start doing the intermediate class from next week. Perhaps this only worked as there were far fewer people than at a standard Ceroc class.
Rachel

[Paul F]

From the response about how things work over there the term 'exam' is being thrown around and I think this is what is worrying everyone.

It looks like its not an exam at all but just a quick word from the teacher. As long as the teacher posesses good inter-personal communication skills I cant see a problem.
Quite a few people have compared what ceroc is with ballroom. From my perspective its a completely different ball game with completely different axioms. (more strict for want of a better word). Ceroc is not and it would be down to the teacher to emphasize that subtly. For example safety would be a concern to allowing the progression of attendees. If a person was dancing "without due care and attention " :grin: then they would be informed as such and a different approach suggested.

As stated the standard of intermediates over there is higher.
I would still love an answer to my question though.......How many people do the venues get over there that employ this system???

I dont expect a venue by venue breakdown of attendance, just as to whether they are, on average, well attended or not.

:confused: :confused:

How about the idea of running some classes with this format over here then? Keep the current classes the way they are but introduce a few using this new format.
That couldnt hurt anyone could it (figuratively speaking :grin: )

I think we would then find the current classes used as a platform to get the beginners upto a certain level then they will move on to the controlled classes. I could well be wrong though.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Jon L
Martin Hi when I last came to your part of the world in March 2002 I went to Perth, Sydney and Melbourne and did Ceroc in all three places.

Perth is run by a fellow ex pat pom Chris Dodd who at the time had just started it up over there, and it was developing, I still keep in touch with him occasionally.

Now in Sydney I went to the Woolamaloo venue and a chap called Luke Kudric was teaching that night. It was a one off, and I turned up did the beginners class. As Luke started his intermediate class, he turned his Mic off walked over to me and had a chat about how many ceroc lessons I had done. Upon explanation (I had been dancing 18 months at the time), he was fine and showed me some useful bits as well.

In Melbourne Caterina danced with me and checked that I was up to scratch for the second lesson - I passed with flying colours.

I got warm welcome from you guys by the way.

Certainly though the standard for the intermediates is higher than here, they want the beginners moves done properly.



A refreshing experience, well Chirs Dodd has been running Perth for many years, it is just that he called it Ceroc recently. I helped him out in 1999 for a few weeks and he was well established then.

Luke is the guy that stuck to beginners classes for 3 months before he moved to intermediate, a great guy, big, bold and Italian - fantastic that he took the time out to talk to you "off line" and was concerned for you personally to do that. (I am sure he will not mind me telling you this, he is very proud of the grounding he got and recounts to beginners his own experiences)

Caterina is also a star, how many people will notice and make sure you were comfortable and were in the right place for you?

So the system works AND you felt comfortable and respected.:cheers:


Originally posted by Paul F
I would still love an answer to my question though.......How many people do the venues get over there that employ this system???


Well I do not know the NZ answer to that, what I do know is that in NSW Newcastle (a much smaller place than Sydney) the typical attendies for Ceroc was about 20 to 40 people, then John and Caroline www.mamboroc.com started up 3 years ago and implemented the system I mentioned. Learn all the beginner moves, show them to the teacher AND freestyle at least 6 of those to a complete track with the teacher to thier satisfaction before moving up. They now have a regular 250 dancers, who are great and dance SO well and also win comps.

As I stated they are ALL a joy to dance with - these guys ROCK ! and have students to be proud of, in fact John has now given up his daytime job and concertrates on his students as that now is his main income.:cheers:

I have had many chats to John and Caroline from NSW Newcastle ever since they started up and I am proud of the way they have a love for the dance and for thier students.

By the way it has nothing to do with ballroom, it is simply a heartfelt concern for students at all levels and has been an incredible success story (sorry Lily - ballroom has nothing to do with it :blush: , simply a desire for all to do well)

Marty

[cali]

Originally posted by Paul F

As stated the standard of intermediates over there is higher.
I would still love an answer to my question though.......How many people do the venues get over there that employ this system???

I dont expect a venue by venue breakdown of attendance, just as to whether they are, on average, well attended or not.


The classes are quite full actually. We have a crowded room most nights. There are 2 beginners classes, 2 improvers, 1 intermediate and 1 advanced class each night. Each beginners class has about 40 - 60 students, same with the improvers. I have never been present for an intermediate class, but the advanced classes are usually around 30-40 in numbers.

They are definately well attended at our studio. Ceroc is quite large and popular overall in New Zealand.

[Paul F]

Originally posted by cali
There are 2 beginners classes, 2 improvers, 1 intermediate and 1 advanced class each night. Each beginners class has about 40 - 60 students, same with the improvers. I have never been present for an intermediate class, but the advanced classes are usually around 30-40 in numbers.

They are definately well attended at our studio. Ceroc is quite large and popular overall in New Zealand.

Do all these classes run simultaneously at the same venue ??

[cali]

These classes are all run at the same venue on Monday and Tuesday. Schedule as follows:

Monday
6 intermediate
7 beginners
8 freestyle time
830 improvers

Tuesday
6 improvers
7 beginners
8 freestyle time
830 advanced

Wed/Thurs
ballroom, latin and medals

[cali]

I guess what I forgot to say is that you pay for the night, not per class. So, if you come at 6 you can take classes until 930 if you have passed to that level. So, some of the dancers (ie. advanced, intermediate) dance all three classes each night, to taxi or just for fun.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Stuart M
MJ appears to be considerably more popular than ballroom in the UK and if you started introducing formal tests, I suspect MJ would become just as popular as ballroom here... I think someone's said this before but it's worth repeating.

How do we know how popular ballroom is? And how do you measure popularity of a dance style?

I've noticed that there are more ballroom dancing schools than modern jive. Most towns have at least one dedicated ballroom dancing school. As far as I'm aware there are no dedicated MJ schools. Many universities have a ballroom dancing society - I think there's an MJ one in Bristol but I'm not aware of any others. There are ballroom dancing competitions just about every weekend - there are about 8 a year for MJ. So from those three observations we could suppose that ballroom dancing is more popular than MJ. What we can be sure of is that ballroom dancing is not as popular as it was - and there is great debate about the reasons for this. Was it something ballroom did or was it that times changed and ballroom didn't?

What worries me is that there seems to be a 'let's not make the same mistakes as ballroom' attitude in MJ. In my opinion this is not entirely healthy as it seems to take the form of 'let's not do anything they do in ballroom'. Much of what ballroom does is tried and tested and could easily be adopted for the benefit of MJ - and much of it wouldn't fit because MJ is primarily a social dance.

What I think I'm saying is, let's have an open mind about adopting what they do in ballroom:waycool:


p.s. I've just noticed this is my 1,000th post - I'm not sure if that's good or bad:confused:

[Heather]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Much of what ballroom does is tried and tested and could easily be adopted for the benefit of MJ - and much of it wouldn't fit because MJ is primarily a social dance:

THE MOST IMPORTANT observation!!!!'MJ is primarily a social dance'.
I started going to Ceroc because I wanted to have FUN,
meet new people, make new friends, keep fit, improve my social life and of course learn a new type of dance.
Of course as I got more into it, I wanted to improve my dancing skills and started going to workshops in an effort to get better at it. BUT that was MY personal CHOICE.
However, the most important element for me is the FUN part.
Introducing dancing assessments, exams or whatever you want to call it would just scunner me!!!
The Education system in this country is obsessed by assessment , this is my working life (National testing etc), so I emphatically DO NOT want this to creep into my social life.
I make the assumption that most people who contribute to this Forum do so because they take their dancing seriously, let those who want to be assessed do so on a voluntary basis and let the rest of us just ENJOY ourselves!!! I think we tend to forget that although there are several hundred Forum members, there are thousands of people who just go along to their local Ceroc/modern Jive club to have a laugh, socialise, dance a few tracks and enjoy themselves. I would certainly NOT wish to impose 'assessment' of any kind on those, the vast majority of people, that would be the fastest way to lose folks (IMHO).

:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
X

[Martin]

Originally posted by Heather
THE MOST IMPORTANT observation!!!!'MJ is primarily a social dance'.
I started going to Ceroc because I wanted to have FUN,
meet new people, make new friends, keep fit, improve my social life and of course learn a new type of dance.
Of course as I got more into it, I wanted to improve my dancing skills and started going to workshops in an effort to get better at it. BUT that was MY personal CHOICE.
However, the most important element for me is the FUN part.
Introducing dancing assessments, exams or whatever you want to call it would just scunner me!!!
The Education system in this country is obsessed by assessment , this is my working life (National testing etc), so I emphatically DO NOT want this to creep into my social life.
I make the assumption that most people who contribute to this Forum do so because they take their dancing seriously, let those who want to be assessed do so on a voluntary basis and let the rest of us just ENJOY ourselves!!! I think we tend to forget that although there are several hundred Forum members, there are thousands of people who just go along to their local Ceroc/modern Jive club to have a laugh, socialise, dance a few tracks and enjoy themselves. I would certainly NOT wish to impose 'assessment' of any kind on those, the vast majority of people, that would be the fastest way to lose folks (IMHO).

:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
X

For the UK market, this is probably an OK thing, as most intermediate classes are faily "safe".
My reason for starting this thread is that in Australia the intemediate classes are far more advanced and include dips and drops which are potentially back, arm, body breakers if done incorrectly.
I have stopped doing intermediate classes where drops are involved as you get very keen beginners droping at 45 degrees to my centre of gravity - options being, hurt your back or let her go.

I also have many occations where the girl "leads" the intermediate move and "goes for it" before the correct time to do so. :sick:

We also have a "consolidation" or "freestyle" class going on at the same time as the intermediate class where students have a chance to learn in a smaller class dedicated to them. This is where the teacher has the chance to give tips and tricks and advise on the wisdom of joining the next class.
It is not a "test" more a judgement as to when is the best time to move on up.

Newcastle, Australia do this and are VERY sucessful, now Sydney is also taking up this approach in the coming year.

Being a dips and drops fan - as one that first taught your guru - Mr Lounge Lizard, I love that stuff BUT I am not going to put my body on the line.

In a perfect world ALL teachers would teach this safely - we do not live in a perfect world...:what:

The differential between Ceroc and Ballroom is vast as there is time to practice on the night and the footwork is simple AND it is to music we can relate to, done as a full evenings entertainment in a social setting, a fantastic combination, hence the numbers coming through the doors.

Fun is number one, social is king AND lets not produce unneccesary injuries.:cheers:

[Starlight Dancer]

I agree with the comments of those who want to keep Ceroc classes fun in the UK.

However I also agree about there being a lack of technical mastery amongst some intermediates.

What I'd like to see is not an introduction of exams etc into the existing classes, but perhaps a little more focus on correct technique in the classes, with perhaps the taxi dancers or other experienced dancers or spotters going round to check the technical execution of moves.

In the Cerocshops I would like to see a closer one-to-one supervision of moves especially where drops etc are involved. Usually there is some attention to this but in my experience it could go further.

Part of the problem may also be not so much with the lack of teacher assistance, but with the reluctance of students to ask for help.

Another idea is to have an optional grading system - ie people still Ceroc for fun, but those who want to work hard at improving would have the option to be graded to gain an understanding of what they need to work most on.

[Paul F]

How about then, keeping the systems exactly as they are now BUT in area A, for example, introducing a seperate night holding an inter/adv class.

The teacher will have to clear you (in a nice friendly way :grin: ) to take part in this advanced class but this can be done at a normal night.

This way, the people who are against these approval sessions can still carry on as normal as nothing will have changed but the people who want to go forward can do so of their own choosing and turn up on this seperate night.

This would satisfy everyone wouldnt it :confused: :confused:


Of course it wouldnt :tears: but i would love to see why people think it wouldnt work.

[Sylph]

Originally posted by starlightdancer
I agree with the comments of those who want to keep Ceroc classes fun in the UK.

However I also agree about there being a lack of technical mastery amongst some intermediates.

What I'd like to see is not an introduction of exams etc into the existing classes, but perhaps a little more focus on correct technique in the classes, with perhaps the taxi dancers or other experienced dancers or spotters going round to check the technical execution of moves.

In the Cerocshops I would like to see a closer one-to-one supervision of moves especially where drops etc are involved. Usually there is some attention to this but in my experience it could go further.

Part of the problem may also be not so much with the lack of teacher assistance, but with the reluctance of students to ask for help.

Another idea is to have an optional grading system - ie people still Ceroc for fun, but those who want to work hard at improving would have the option to be graded to gain an understanding of what they need to work most on.

I agree with all this. Horses for courses. In retrospect, I think I personally would have benefited from being evaluated and having some goals earlier on. Now this is beginning to make the "having fun" more fun for me. :D

It would be a difficult job for the teachers to try to judge who would like assistance and who would be affronted. The same general lack of guidance is in evidence in gym classes like Aerobics, Step etc. One exception, IMHO, is that safety factor should override social niceties in classes where risk of injury is higher with poor technique e.g Aerials, BodyPump. People should then get advice whether they want it or not!

[Lory]

The power of hindsight is a wonderful thing and the trouble is, its ONLY when you've entered the next level, that you can decide whether you were ready for it or not (and as it stands at the moment, its you and only you who makes that decision), that's where I think the advise of a teacher would be helpful. Maybe not a 'formal' grading but just a 'look see' and say your fine, or maybe give a the student a few pointers to work on before they go into intermediate.

I'm in no way qualified to advise ANYONE but the other day, a man did ask me if I thought he was ready for the intermediates, I said I honestly didn't know!

The advise I gave..... (rightly or wrongly?) I said just try the first move and think of it as 2 beginners moves added together, don't try to do the whole class, then add that one move and practice it, in every dance during freestyle and build up to doing the whole class gradually over a few weeks.

I haven't a clue how he got on

[Gadget]

Well, you did ask...

Originally posted by Paul F
How about then, keeping the systems exactly as they are now BUT in area A, for example, introducing a seperate night holding an inter/adv class.
so you would expect people to travel from a larger catchement area for these classes? So it is probable that you are going to clash with a regular class night in another area and sook all the "high level" dancers from that class. Even if it's not on a regular night, the person may only have one or two nights to devoted to dancing; you are removing their custom from their regular venue.

The teacher will have to clear you to take part in this advanced class but this can be done at a normal night.
Does this not advocate eliteism and encourage 'cliques'? And where will the teachers/dancers find time for this apprasal? What if the person fails? Since your catchment area is going to be larger, how can you ensure that the standard is consistant? Would you be expected to jump through specific hoops to 'pass'?

This way, the people who are against these approval sessions can still carry on as normal as nothing will have changed but the people who want to go forward can do so of their own choosing and turn up on this seperate night.
No, because you are now segregating those who want to dance in the "advanced" session, but do not want to be judged by the teacher. What about visiting "advanced" dancers? What do you do about people who just 'turn up' on the night?

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget
Well, you did ask...

Does this not advocate eliteism and encourage 'cliques'? And where will the teachers/dancers find time for this apprasal? What if the person fails? Since your catchment area is going to be larger, how can you ensure that the standard is consistant? Would you be expected to jump through specific hoops to 'pass'?

No, because you are now segregating those who want to dance in the "advanced" session, but do not want to be judged by the teacher. What about visiting "advanced" dancers? What do you do about people who just 'turn up' on the night?



I don't think it would lead to elitism necessarily Gadget but I can imagine some dancers being offended if told they weren't ready to 'step up' and see the decision as a perosnal insult and claim it was due to not being a friend/member of an elite group etc..

I don't know how keen Lisa and Lorna would be to have to do this or any other teacher here. There are a number of dancers who very obvioulsy over-estimate their ability and probably just as many who underestimate theirs so I can see a number of issues.

Perhaps some 'special' workshops could be arranged so that smaller groups could get the tuition and feedback required to ensure they reached a particular 'standard'.

I like the idea of Advanced classes but think anyone who pays their money should be allowed to participate - unless they have proved themselves to be a danger to others.

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Gadget
Well, you did ask...


....BIG SNIP

What do you do about people who just 'turn up' on the night?

I completely agree. Im not, for one minute, suggesting this is the correct approach. As I said at the end of my previous post....obviously it wont satisfy everyone. There would be some who would welcome this (or a derivative of it) and some that wouldnt.

People want advanced classes.

You mentioned seggregation. Of course this happens. One main criteria I think would be important to allow people to progress to advanced is safety. If this is one of the hoops they must jump through then so be it. I think that would be beneficial.
This segregates the unsafe dancers from the safe ones!.

Maybe this could be the only criteria for progression??


As for time.......this isnt an issue. We are not talking a 120 point written exam followed by a practical demonstration. We are talking about a few minutes observing the dancer dancing.

The location and timing of such a class is a definate concern. I wouldnt really know the best way to structure it. The same goes for visiting dancers. The scheme would have to be a national scheme under the ceroc banner. This way you are passed anywhere in the country.

This would obviously alienate non-ceroc dancers from the advanced classes but there is nothing stopping them from going along to a class to get passed.


Elitism isnt an issue. Thats like saying that everyone who goes to Amirs and Nigels Advanced class on a Tuesday at......Oooo whats that place again......I forget :grin: .........doesn't dance with anyone else at any other venues.

[Andy McGregor]

I've been thinking about this a bit more. I like the idea that the teacher or taxi tells a dancer when they're ready for the next level.

Some years ago I taxied and took the consolidation lesson. The consolidation lesson ran at the same time as the intermediate class. I used to informally tell people that they were ready to do the intermediate class. I must admit that my motivation was mostly to keep the numbers down in the consolidation lesson so I could give people more attention. I didn't make a big deal of it - but some people were really chuffed to be told they were ready to 'graduate':D

I was really chuffed to see one of my graduates and his wife taking a lesson recently. When I told them how well I thought they'd done they got quite emotional they were so flattered:waycool:

Having been to loads of lessons I can tell you why this might not work everywhere in the UK. At many of the classes I go to the teacher does not dance with the beginners or even with anyone that might not make them look good. You can understand the need to look good for a good dancer but they are there to teach and shouldn't just leave it to the taxi dancers! At one class I haven't been to for ages the theacher used to sit smoking with the DJ most of the time!!! At another class I went to recently, almost all the female dancers 'broke' their shoulder a lot - I noticed the teacher only danced with the good women so these others would never improve unless someone told them - which I did of course, much to their gratitude:D

So what am I saying? I'm saying that dancers need feedback regarding their dancing and progress. An examination would provide this feedback - but there are many other ways of providing that feedback. Plus, how many times have we done and exam and never found out what we did wrong? I think the teachers and taxis have a role to play in helping people improve by giving one-to-one feedback during the freestyle.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

So what am I saying? I'm saying that dancers need feedback regarding their dancing and progress. An examination would provide this feedback - but there are many other ways of providing that feedback. Plus, how many times have we done and exam and never found out what we did wrong? I think the teachers and taxis have a role to play in helping people improve by giving one-to-one feedback during the freestyle.

Couldn't agree more ... but in an ideal world Teachers and crew should be doing that anyway.

Thinking back to what you said about the boost you give someone when they've 'graduated' ... what about someone who STILL dances like a lemon, has failed to grasp things like timing, relaxed grip etc ... but is convinced that they are the next Viktor incarnate? They will either be crushed or take offence and take their business (and themsleves) to another club ... possibly:sick:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
... what about someone who STILL dances like a lemon, has failed to grasp things like timing, relaxed grip etc ... but is convinced that they are the next Viktor incarnate? They will either be crushed or take offence and take their business (and themsleves) to another club ... possibly:sick:

..or they could take on board what you told them, do a workshop or two and turn into a great dancer. They're your students and when they dance elsewhere they're ambassadors for your teaching talent. You owe it to them and you owe it to yourself to tell them what's wrong and how to get it right. Consider an example from education, if you were running night classes in mathematics and someone consistently got their long division wrong would you ignore it to save embarassing them? I don't think so.

I think you're justified in 'coaching' dancers when they've attended and paid for a dance class - they're probably expecting to receive some tuition. If they've come to a freestyle they can dance as badly as they like - you should probably only have a word if they're endangering other dancers.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
At another class I went to recently, almost all the female dancers 'broke' their shoulder a lot
You should be so lucky. Usually it's my shoulder they break. :tears:

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
You should be so lucky. Usually it's my shoulder they break. :tears:

Chris

Ah Grasshopper. Do not keep a tight hold on the tail of the wild tiger, that way lies pain and suffering. Let it go when the tiger pulls hard. In time you and the tiger will reach a balance or you will not be troubled by that tiger again.

..and beware the tigers claws and teeth. Unless you watched them eat you cannot be sure you are not destined to be their next meal:wink:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Let it go when the tiger pulls hard.
One thing I've been trying with what might be the beginnings of success with some of the female yankers is rapidly reduce the amount of resisting tension at the instant they apply it. So they get an initial resistance in the direction I want them to go, but it doesn't last very long at the level they are expecting.

Within the duration of one dance I might start by providing the full amount, and gradually reduce it during the track. The net result is to encourage them to gradually take an increasing amount of the responsibility for changing the direction of their own momentum, while retaining enough to provide a lead.

The advantages are that:

a) they don't get the equivalent emotional effect of being called a wally, and

b) they don't get the chance to act like a bowling ball, and take out the couples in the vicinity

The disadvantage is that it causes a bit of wear and tear on my shoulder, but as I refine the technique this is getting less.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA

The disadvantage is that it causes a bit of wear and tear on my shoulder, but as I refine the technique this is getting less.

Chris

I think you're just getting better developed shoulders:devil:

I find that resisting 'yankers' results in them accusing me of having an overly strong lead. There is a temptation to become a rock for them to thrash against with their wild tugging. In their inexperience they think it's me pulling them around. I don't resist this yanking any more I just go with it and save my shoulder. Sometimes I have a chat with them about 'frames', 'broken shoulders', 'tension', etc. But I'm wary of this as sometimes I get a negative reaction like 'I've been coming to Ceroc for 3 years, I think I know what I'm doing'. And who says I'm right?:tears:

[cali]

The "exam" you keep referring to is nothing of the sort. You seem to have the idea that this is some kind of technical interference in having a fun social evening. It really isn't a distraction at all.

The instructors are told during the freestyle half-hour who is ready for their evaluation. They spend about 5 minutes, one-on-one, with the person or about 1 song. All they do is dance the 4-5 move pattern they learned in the class that night and then ask if they would like to try to freestyle with them. If they are having too much difficulty doing this with an instructor then it is evident that they should wait and take more classes at their current level before they try something in intermediate or IMHO, god forbid, advanced! That's it. That's the whole thing. 3 minutes of dancing with someone can speak novels about their capabilities. In addition to the fact that for some it is really neat to get to dance with an instructor and get advice, with whom they might not normally get the chance or the time. Afterwards, we just jump back on the dance floor and have a good time. No pressure.

It has been mentioned that there is concern for beginning dancers taking on moves that are beyond their level of comprehension and ability. That is all this bit of time is designed for. It does a fairly good job too.

Of course, socially, we are always taught here to ask a dancer, if you do not know them, what level they dance at. This way you are not doing dips and drops with a beginner who may potentially cause grief for both parties involved.
:eek:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by cali
Of course, socially, we are always taught here to ask a dancer, if you do not know them, what level they dance at. This way you are not doing dips and drops with a beginner who may potentially cause grief for both parties involved.
:eek: We're taught (and teach) that here too Cali.

Some people even listen. Some. Occasionally :D

Steve

[fruitcake]

:devil:
Well, I think I should be a liberal cos as usual, I see everyones point of view!
It would be nice not to do the intermediate class with guys who don't know what they are doing, but as long as the guy can lead then I can follow, but sometimes after an intermediate class, I may have done the rounds with several guys who have got 'lost', which means I don't know what I'm doing either, especially if I've been 'standing out' waiting my 'turn'.

There is a particular chap(who I know doesnt read the forum), who is lost every week at the intermediate (and sometimes the beginners class) but he's been coming for a while, and enjoys the social evening. and he perhaps would never pass any kind of assessment, ,if someone just wasnt passing the assessment,but was bored of the beginners class what then? Some people have enough stress and negativity in their lives, and come for escapism, and wouldnt want anyone judging them on their abilities(or lack of...), which could destroy their confidence, and frankly if they were the shy, retiring type might not even come in the first place. Why do we need to increase the standard anyway, we are there to have fun after all, perhaps we should have SPECIAL classes for those who are fantastic, and they can dance among themselves!
But that would probably create an elite, which we would all aspire to and create divisions in the ranks...oh dear I seem to be rambling( it was the Bacardi Breezer i just had:sad: yet:rofl:
Fruity

[bigdjiver]

I rarely get a beginners class 100% right. Some things are just too automatic - ( Shoulder slide - catch right, just like I always do in freestyle.) If other people were being assessed I would feel "out of it" and inferior if I was not. One of the reasons I dropped ballroom classes, even though I love dancing, was the grade pressure.

[cali]

Originally posted by fruitcake

There is a particular chap(who I know doesnt read the forum), who is lost every week at the intermediate (and sometimes the beginners class) but he's been coming for a while, and enjoys the social evening. and he perhaps would never pass any kind of assessment, ,if someone just wasnt passing the assessment,but was bored of the beginners class what then? Some people have enough stress and negativity in their lives, and come for escapism, and wouldnt want anyone judging them on their abilities(or lack of...), which could destroy their confidence, and frankly if they were the shy, retiring type might not even come in the first place.

I see what you are saying. I suppose that is why we have an improvers class that gets you out of beginners (so you can do both classes if you choose) yet it is one more step away from intermediate where dips and drops and more intricate patterns come in.

Maybe that would help ... include an improvers level so beginners don't feel stuck but don't hold intermediate dancers back. Most of our dancers that aren't ready to move up come and do both beginning and improvers on both mondays and tuesdays allowing them more chances to get more confusing moves down. :nice:

The whole dance floor is full during the half hour of freestyling. Everyone jumps in. The instructors just use this time to assess newer dancers as it doesn't conflict with a class and it isn't distracting to other dancers. It is a private time between dancer and instructor. They don't share their comments with the whole class or anything and they are very encouraging, so their would be no reason to lose confidence. They don't want to lose potential paying customers!! :wink:

[Dotse]

I had a 6-month stint as a Mainstream teacher at the company Martin rerferred to, and I think the system worked well. As Cali pointed out the process that is seen as an 'exam' isn't as formal as most seem to think. Although I didn't officially put students through this process myself, the feedback I got was that it wasn't too confronting.

My view is that its not meant to be daunting or even that difficult, and its far removed from the ballroom world, so far that there is no threat of heading that wayfrom this process . Its for the benefit of all dancers and it seems to work well.

Importantly, there are some people that are simply not ready to move on and should not be allowed to progress and endanger others, and as Sylph mentioned when safety is a concern this must overide other less important factors, including egos.

IMO I would like to see more consolidation of the basic dance concepts and more variations of basic beginner moves shown earlier in the peice, (as well as glimses into where they can lead,..... having a purpose to basics might help to maintain the interest factor, so staying in beginners longer is more correctly peerceived a positive thing) as well as some funny beginner dance concepts like basic body movement, hips etc....that way new dancers wouldn't mind staying there a bit longer..........even now beginners is not a bad place...its just that its a style that people progress realy fast ...maybe TOO fast....which makes things difficult later for those wanting to take it more seriously...and dangerous to many..... Im all for fun but also for safety....

Maintaining interest is an alternate way of having people stay in beginners or intermediate longer. Alternatively, I believe well planned overall class structure as well as some thoughtful stepping stones would work to make more solid dancers and make them safer.

I dont think many people want Mj to head ballroomy... but IMHO it nonethless needs some more tweaking, but importantly without loosing its sociability. There are so many dancers and so many different levels..and more and more experienced dancers...MJ is growing up....the instruction also needs to ;)

I know in Sydney with Nicky Haslam's Ceroc and Modern Jive there are certain levels down there that need to be acheived, for instance they have a 6 week advanced course (the fisrt I have heard of)...obviously this is not open to everyone, I think they have a card system but not sure. Also they have competitrion workshops,....Nicky seems to be very innovative...the website is definitely worth a read....

IMHO improvements to MJ in general could include not just having user -friendly progressive stepping stones, but also more thought to the order of moves taught, the fundamentals of dance (these would be non-examinable and could be made a lot of fun with some imagination!!), what moves suit what type of songs, basic leading and following etc. (some of the very basic ideas that are taught in work shops, and I mean very basic.....why not start this at a very simple level very early on and avoid all the unlearning and re leanring that I many dancers have to do later on...... while keeping the essence of the style, for instance fun and social-this is the challenge ahead.

Lets not ask if.... lets ask HOW fun, simplicity and the technical side of MJ and can grow together in a way that caters for all dancers.......

Optimisticaly yours,

Dotse

[bigdjiver]

One of the problems with using people that have passed through a system to assess it is that it is intrinsically biased. The people that do not like it or cannot live with it have already removed themselves. The current self-assessment system works. Can anybody point to people that have quit MJ because there were no assessments to pass?

[Jon]

I think the key thing here is that there are people who want to learn and improve other people just like the social aspect.

The people who want to learn are those who will do workshops etc and generally want to better themselves yet these people may find themselves being held back at normal classes because of the wide range of experience of the dancers in the class.

This can only be changed by not allowing people into a class before they are ready for it. Doing this would allow MJ to potentially run more classes say intermediate, advanced etc.

Nearly every class I go to I get asked by lots of ladies have you got this routine because most of the men haven't. The same goes for the ladies I get partnered with some can do it others can't.

At some stage the people who want to learn will find they cannot progress any further in normal classes so what do they do then.

Whatever the solution is MJ need to cater for beginners but also to keep their experienced dancers challenged.

[Martin]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Can anybody point to people that have quit MJ because there were no assessments to pass?

That one is difficult to judge but I can name at least 20 dancers who do not join in the intermediate class because it is not safe to do so with the current standard of dancer.

To clarify, I joined into my first intermediate class on Thursday as a student after about a year of avoiding it to save my body for comps and dance routines. It was not too bad and very social, I even made a new friend who was a dancer from Germany (in fact she started up Ceroc in Germany many years ago and danced with Simon Selmon - top Lindy bod, in the 1996 champs), she is here for 5 days and I am currently being tour guide.:D

There was a drop involved, each time I asked the girl if she had done drops before AND I was VERY careful to get her to my centre of gravity.

There was a vast improvement as there were only 2 people who really needed the assesment - is 2, 2 too many?

One lady led me through all the moves and also led me into the drop:sorry - very scary

There was a first move variation and it was clear with the other lady that she did not know how to do a normal first move correctly
:sick:

In the Newcastle (NSW, Aussie) system this would not have happened, as they would have been thouroughly taught to follow and how to do the basic moves.

It realy depends what the "dance teachers" are looking to achieve - I fully understand a fun evening is number 1.

Getting the more experienced dancers into the classes IMHO does make for a more fun evening.

The question is do the beginners want to have a basic understanding of the dance or do they want to have fun and never grasp the concept?

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jon
Nearly every class I go to I get asked by lots of ladies have you got this routine because most of the men haven't. The same goes for the ladies I get partnered with some can do it others can't.


Jon, I think that one phrase sums up the whole issue of this thread. At every club throughout the land I bet that phrase is being asked.

The question is, is this because the moves being taught are too advanced or taught badly, or that the punters simply aren't listenening or are incapable of getting the moves right? Either way I think it indicates that we may be doing something fundamentaly wrong ... IF we are putting forward MJ classes as a teaching environment. If its just for fun, who cares ... but it does seem we have a problem. ..... having said that, is it common place or is it it just at a few clubs?

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Gus
The question is, is this because the moves being taught are too advanced or taught badly, or that the punters simply aren't listenening or are incapable of getting the moves right? Either way I think it indicates that we may be doing something fundamentaly wrong ... IF we are putting forward MJ classes as a teaching environment. If its just for fun, who cares ... but it does seem we have a problem. ..... having said that, is it common place or is it it just at a few clubs?

When I get to the intermediate class, if I am constantly dancing with men who have got lost then i am lost also, especially if there have been more women than men and we have been standing out!
But I'm not complaining about the poor men having to remember the moves-I couldnt.
But ifI end up dancing with men who completely know what they are doing it is much more satisfying.But what to do?
Majority of men at the dances I go to are there strictly for fun.If you took the fun away we would have 3 times as many women.
Does anyone else think some of our threads go round and round, mainly because they get so long we don't read them from the beginning.....I am particularly bad at repeating myself-sorry folks!
:innocent:
Fruitcake

[Gus]

Originally posted by fruitcake

Does anyone else think some of our threads go round and round, mainly because they get so long we don't read them from the beginning
Fruitcake

I would say that this thread is typical of those where there isnt an answer ... just shades of grey and personal prefences.

Its about the desire for fun against the desire to dance better (whatever they may actualy mean). The balance can vary from person to person or even with the same person over the passage of time. I wouldn't fret about threads going round and around ... sometimes it provokes people to come at it from a different angle or simply come up some interesting and insightfull comment:grin:

[Dotse]

I think part of the reason intermediate + moves are sometimes hard to get is that many students are trying to mimic quite complex movements without a deep enough understanding (either logical or instinctual) of their own body and how it works in a dance sense. Even if you are quite coordinated and sporty it can be very challenging.

I have been to different Dance Schools and found plenty of moves hard to get, and at times its quite frustrating (not much fun actually..mmmm). But, later when my partner explains that your WEIGHT should be here at this section, and that you don't allow the lady to travel to far to the right or the next part won't go well, and you need to have this tension then let it go to allow for her body movement, you move away from the lady here not towards to add an illusion of movement blaa blaa blaa.

The point is.. once a few IMPORTANT points are explained well make it much easier. The important points seem to relate to several underlying dance concepts..With all due respect to teachers (and I am sure there are exceptions) and this is meant for me as well, many teachers simply don't have the ability or choose not to go into the depth required to help students learn enough about 'dancing' to help future learning. I am still relatively inexperienced but when things are explained well to me , lights go off and buzzers ring upstairs and it actually becomes much simpler NOT more complicated....and to me simpler equates to more fun. And the beauty is you can apply genearl ideas to other moves.


The dancers that have a lot of experience and know "dance concepts" wIll pick up most moves fairly easy because they know either instinctively or consciously the keys to having moves work..its not because they have a good memory (although this would play a role too).

I think there ARE answers out there if we look for them---I do not beleive fun and an increase in the depth of training are mutually exclusive......they can compliment each other. If managed well people will still be up and dancing quickly and having fun........its too late at intermediate + to teach the complex move and the concepts........food for thought.......

Optimistically yours,

Dotse

[Starlight Dancer]

Originally posted by Gus
Jon, I think that one phrase sums up the whole issue of this thread. At every club throughout the land I bet that phrase is being asked.

The question is, is this because the moves being taught are too advanced or taught badly, or that the punters simply aren't listenening or are incapable of getting the moves right? Either way I think it indicates that we may be doing something fundamentaly wrong ... IF we are putting forward MJ classes as a teaching environment. If its just for fun, who cares ... but it does seem we have a problem. ..... having said that, is it common place or is it it just at a few clubs?
We sometimes get this happening at our West Midlands venues. I don't think the classes are too advanced at all, but I do think that people are at different stages in their development. When I first moved up into the intermediate classes I was getting the moves wrong. The same can be said for the beginners who start a beginners class for the first time and have the same trouble. I don't think it's anything to worry about. Yes, there may be people who aren't exactly new to the intermediate classes who are still getting it wrong now and then, but the fact is that some people are just quicker on the uptake than others. Sometimes these people will be corrected by their partners but if they haven't got the move by the end of the class then they have the choice to ask someone who has got it to demonstrate it.

One problem may be that the moves are not always explained by the teachers in sufficient detail, and sometimes this is because certain points seem obvious when you are demonstrating the move, though they may not be obvious to everyone who is learning it. Occasionally there is also a problem in a packed hall if not everyone has a good view of the stage, or if people are facing away from the stage as sometimes happens.

[Gus]

Originally posted by starlightdancer
One problem may be that the moves are not always explained by the teachers in sufficient detail, and sometimes this is because certain points seem obvious when you are demonstrating the move, though they may not be obvious to everyone who is learning it.

Without restarting a debate thats had been before ... this comes back to the question as to whether you can succesfully teach 4 intermediate moves in 30 mimutes ... lets just leave it that views differ:devil:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gus
Without restarting a debate thats had been before ...

Alas, he spoke too soon ...


... this comes back to the question as to whether you can succesfully teach 4 intermediate moves in 30 mimutes

I take it that "successful" means that the students have learned it. Given that all of the teachers I have seen can do the moves correctly more often than not, and can explain well enough what they did, then it depends on the students.

If we had been "successfully" taught then most members of this forum would be able to lead and follow several hundred Ceroc moves and name them.

The usual elements of teaching are not there, assessment and revisions after periods of hours and days. The intermediate class is just an opportunity to learn and interact socially.

It is just possible that Ceroc & clones are as successful as they are because of this format. Any moves to "improve" standards are more likely to be teacher and expert driven, rather than for the average customer. I think general class nights should remain as they are (though they may be changing as from Jan 10th 2004) and leave the "proper" tuition to dance schools, workshops and weekenders.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dotse


I know in Sydney with Nicky Haslam's Ceroc and Modern Jive there are certain levels down there that need to be acheived, for instance they have a 6 week advanced course (the fisrt I have heard of)...obviously this is not open to everyone, I think they have a card system but not sure. Also they have competitrion workshops,....Nicky seems to be very innovative...the website is definitely worth a read....


Website is www.ceroc.com.au if you're interested.

Yes, there's a card system: blue for intermediate/advanced, gold for advanced. Each venue has a monthly intermediate/advanced class. Anyone can join the class, but there's a separate rotation for people with I/A cards. Less frequently there's an advanced class. It's only open to people with a card (I/A or A), with a normal class run in parallel in another room. Folks are allowed to stick with a fixed partner for this one if they like.

It works out to an honour system because they're not very police state about checking cards. It almost never bugs me learning moves with more beginnerish girls, but I think the system really reduces frustration for the more advanced girls.

I'm very happy that Nicky seems to be keen to at least try different things and see how they work, and that she seems keen to improve the level of dancing generally.

[RobC]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
though they may be changing as from Jan 10th 2004)
Errm, what happened / might have happened on the 10th that would change things ? :confused:
What have I missed ?

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by RobC
Errm, what happened / might have happened on the 10th that would change things ? :confused:
What have I missed ?

I believe there is a teacher update on that date.