"Strictly No Sequins" returns

[David Bailey]

I got an email through from Ceroc London - they're (re-)starting Ballroom / Latin classes, with a six-week course starting at the end of September. Presumably hoping to cash in on the latest season of "Strictly".

I'm glad to see this branching out - I remember them doing this a few years ago in Cricklewood. Unfortunately, this one's in Clapham, which is a bit too far for me to attend.

Anyone else going?

[Lory]

I'm glad to see this branching out - I remember them doing this a few years ago in Cricklewood. Unfortunately, this one's in Clapham, which is a bit too far for me to attend.


:yeah: I went to the last one and loved it!

I remember the first night, I'd NEVER seen anything like it, Ashtons was rammed to the absolute maximum, I'd never seen so many people in my life! :really:

And I clearly remember learning the waltz and having such a laugh with the 'Bus stop' idea! (the idea was, as the dance is 'progressive', meaning it travels around the room. The men would do one revolution of the floor with one lady, then drop her off and pick up the next available one. The ladies were only ever off the floor for a few seconds and spent those few seconds guessing/praying, who was going to be her next bus! :rofl: )

Ahh the good old days! :D

As you say David, Clapham's too far for us! :tears::tears:

[Gav]

I'd probably make the effort if it was Foxtrot (which I'm quite keen to try), but as they only do Waltz and Cha-cha, I won't be going. :sad:

[Lory]

I'd probably make the effort if it was Foxtrot (which I'm quite keen to try), but as they only do Waltz and Cha-cha, I won't be going. :sad:
Is that right :confused: I haven't seen the email but last time we definitely covered the Foxtrot but in all honesty, one of my criticisms of last time was, there simply wasn't enough time spent on any one dance, as they tried to cover them all.

So each week, we'd do half the lesson on a 'Ballroom' dance and the other half on a 'Latin' dance but in reality, everyone had forgotten all they'd learnt by the time the week came around to the second lesson of any particular dance.

I think Cha Cha is the best dance for the Latin style, as its the most 'useable' but its a difficult choice between Waltz and Foxtrot, in the Ballroom but I will say something, once you've got the hang of the Waltz, there's nothing quite like that feeling! :drool:

[David Bailey]

Is that right :confused: I haven't seen the email
I've forwarded it to you.

The details are here:
http://www.ceroclondon.com/sns

From there:

Using the renowned Ceroc teaching method - which makes learning easy - you will be guided through the fundamentals of both Cha Cha Cha and Waltz each Wednesday for 6 weeks by our passionate and talented teachers Izzy and Aleks.

So yes, chacha and waltz. Which, frankly, makes sense - they're relatively easy to learn, they're popular, and it's better to focus on a couple of dances rather than a smattering of all of them.

But they also say:

Working with Ceroc, Izzy and Aleks wish to make learning Latin/Ballroom easy and fun for everybody and by running a series of 6 week courses, each concentrating on a different Ballroom and Latin dance they will guide you through all the dances.
So, hopefully, it'll continue.

And finally, on a note of caution, and just because I can't be seen to be too positive:

You will also be shown how to integrate aspects of these dances into your social dance repertoire within Ceroc and other dance forms
Yeah, right. That old "fusion" chestnut again, huh? :rolleyes:

[Lory]

You will also be shown how to integrate aspects of these dances into your social dance repertoire within Ceroc and other dance forms

Yeah, right. That old "fusion" chestnut again, huh? :rolleyes:A fusion of Waltz and Ceroc :what: that's a bit like saying a fusion between Curry and Triffle!

for a start, I wonder how people are supposed to dance a 3/4 dance to 4/4 music?? I have no doubt that 'some' will try to though :sick::doh::rofl:

[David Bailey]

A fusion of Waltz and Ceroc :what: that's a bit like saying a fusion between Curry and Triffle!
There was a Friends episode like that :)

Chacha and MJ, no problem. I do that on occasion (OK, sort-of-chacha-on-1 :D )

Waltz and MJ? I can't see how that'd work...

[Lory]

Chacha and MJ, no problem. I do that on occasion (OK, sort-of-chacha-on-1 :D )

David, now common, you always do your cha cha 'on one', unless I count you in! :devil:
:friend:

[frodo]

I'm glad to see this branching out - I remember them doing this a few years ago in Cricklewood. Unfortunately, this one's in Clapham, which is a bit too far for me to attend.
Probably under 10 miles and virtually next to the busiest railway junction in the UK.


but its a difficult choice between Waltz and Foxtrot, in the Ballroom but I will say something, once you've got the hang of the Waltz, there's nothing quite like that feeling! :drool:Waltz is essentially single time steps whereas Foxtrot is complex.


Yeah, right. That old "fusion" chestnut again, huh? :rolleyes:Well the teachers don't appear to be in the same league as the previous teachers.
Essentially they've won a Modern Jive competition.

So I reckon that is the main selling point - they do have modern jive experience and therefore can address fusion.


A fusion of Waltz and Ceroc :what: that's a bit like saying a fusion between Curry and Triffle!

for a start, I wonder how people are supposed to dance a 3/4 dance to 4/4 music?? I have no doubt that 'some' will try to though :sick::doh::rofl:What is the problem/why not 'try' it. Single time stepping should work for everything. Would the wrong music really lose the 'feeling'.

[David Bailey]

Well the teachers don't appear to be in the same league as the previous teachers.
Essentially they've won a Modern Jive competition.
I don't know the teachers. But I assume that they're competent; it's unlikely that Ceroc London would pick out a couple of random dancers from the street.

And if they've competed - and won - in Modern Jive, excellent.

You don't need top-flight professional dancers to teach a Ceroc crowd. You need people who are familiar with Ceroc-style teaching. It's not like they'll be coaching cimpetition winners or something.


So I reckon that is the main selling point - they do have modern jive experience and therefore can address fusion.
I still don't believe Waltz and Ceroc can ever mix, there are two many differences.


What is the problem/why not 'try' it. Single time stepping should work for everything. Would the wrong music really lose the 'feeling'.
Blimey, it's not just the music - there are occasional tracks that might work, tempo-wise, I'm sure. It's the hold, the progression, the movements, etc.

I think the only possibilities would be to swtich between waltzx-style and MJ-style movements within a slow-ish track. I admit, I'd be interested to see someone try it.

[Lory]

What is the problem/why not 'try' it. Single time stepping should work for everything. Would the wrong music really lose the 'feeling'.

Well, let me first try to explain what elements go into making a Waltz a Waltz

First and foremost - The music, which is 3/4 timing! This IS essentially what makes the dance a waltz.
I think a large proportion of people will recognise a tune with waltz timing, even if they can't waltz and they'll agree that its nigh-on impossible to dance MJ to it!

Secondly - The Embrace - its a 'fixed hold' dance, meaning there's no 'in and out' movement between partners and they share what's known as a 'shared axis. Which is completely apposed to what makes up most MJ moves (except for in a penguin walk spin or whatever you want to call it)

Thirdly, one of the characteristics of the dance is that it has what's known as 'rise and fall'. I think if we tried to replicate this in MJ, with 4/4 timing we might suddenly create a room full of the dreaded 'bouncers' :whistle:

And lastly, its a 'progressive' dance, which means it travels around the room and although it might look quite stately, it can actually move very fast, especially on the turns.
So, there's no way one could do this on a crowded dance floor. :sick:

Also, ones encouraged to take big steps and the steps going forward, are 'heal' first.
Firstly, ladies who take big steps in MJ are much slower to respond and less capable of keeping their own centre of balance (which is not needed in Waltz, as I said above, the partners share the axis, therefore use each others weight) plus I think big steps look ugly in MJ, that's just my opinion of course!

As for 'the feeling' I think its a combination of all the things but mainly, for me, its the feeling of being whizzed around the room, using centrifugal force that creates this feeling and the only time I get this in MJ, is when a guy spins me very fast!

I'd be interested in hearing a counter argument :)

[frodo]

I don't know the teachers. But I assume that they're competent; it's unlikely that Ceroc London would pick out a couple of random dancers from the street.I'd assume so, but I'm not sure I'd pay up front for a course on that basis (having in the past given far too much credence to how Ceroc sold their weekender teachers).

Even quite impressive teachers can fall over outside their teaching style, even when they have a (non teaching) background in the alternate style.


You don't need top-flight professional dancers to teach a Ceroc crowd. You need people who are familiar with Ceroc-style teaching. It's not like they'll be coaching cimpetition winners or something.I agree with that.

[frodo]

As for 'the feeling' I think its a combination of all the things but mainly, for me, its the feeling of being whizzed around the room, using centrifugal force that creates this feeling and the only time I get this in MJ, is when a guy spins me very fast! Fair enough. Thanks for explaining the feeling.


although it might look quite stately, it can actually move very fast, especially on the turns.I'm sure it is for competition type dancers, but I don't believe that is the case for most people (for whom it is a slow dance). There just won't be much centrifugal force involved.



First and foremost - The music, which is 3/4 timing! This IS essentially what makes the dance a waltz.
I think a large proportion of people will recognise a tune with waltz timing, even if they can't waltz and they'll agree that its nigh-on impossible to dance MJ to it!
So the rise and fall / embrace / centrifugal force / progression / speed don't matter then :na:

I reckon this is the key point. People may agree, but you might get a different answer after it was tried.

Perhaps you should try it (to music of a suitable tempo as David Bailey mentioned) before deciding it would be a problem.



Secondly - The Embrace - its a 'fixed hold' dance, meaning there's no 'in and out' movement between partners and they share what's known as a 'shared axis. Which is completely apposed to what makes up most MJ moves (except for in a penguin walk spin or whatever you want to call it)An awful lot of modern jive is utopia style / slotted style / tango style - there isn't much in and out anyway.

[Lory]

.An awful lot of modern jive is utopia style / slotted style / tango style - there isn't much in and out anyway.
I don't agree that there's such a thing as a Utopia style? Although, I'll stick my neck out here and say, there's probably a much higher proportion of dancers who attend Utopia events, who've had experience of 'other' styles, than just MJ

As for a slotted style working better, I'm afraid IMO that aspect makes no difference- there's still lots of 'in and out' movement and partners also pass each other, whereas in a waltz, the couple move as one!
As I said before, its a 'fixed frame'

Tango - tango is definitely the nearest dance and in fact, there is already a Tango with waltz timing, called Vals.
The difference is, you'd never have a 'closed hold' waltz and when in open embrace, the 'shape' formed by the dancers is completely different.. In Tango, the dancers form a kind of 'A' shape and in a waltz its more of a 'Y'


Perhaps you should try it (to music of a suitable tempo as David Bailey mentioned) before deciding it would be a problem. Please describe what aspects of Waltz you'd like me to 'try' to incorporate into my MJ and please suggest a piece of music, which in your opinion, has a 'suitable tempo', I'm truly intrigued!

[David Bailey]

Perhaps you should try it (to music of a suitable tempo as David Bailey mentioned) before deciding it would be a problem.
To be clear, I still think it'll fail, I just think it'd be interesting to try it and possibly train-crash interesting to watch :)



An awful lot of modern jive is utopia style / slotted style / tango style - there isn't much in and out anyway.
It's absolutely possible to dance MJ without any accordion movements. But that doesn't make such dancing the majority.

If it's MJ music, I dance MJ, and that involves in-and-out. To me, tension and compression is an integral part of standard Modern Jive.

[David Bailey]

Tango - tango is definitely the nearest dance and in fact, there is already a Tango with waltz timing, called Vals.
Yes. That's the way I was thinking also (our minds are becoming one :na: ).

Vals is not rise-and-fall, and it doesn't have to involve lots of swirling around. You basically step on the "1" beat by default, but you can double-time on occasion with the "3".

So, presumably, you might be able to create some sort of Vals / MJ fusion. Hmmmm, I'm intrigued now, I think I'll dig out Vals D'Amelie for Sunday...

Although that's not really relevant as Vals is not Waltz, and:

The difference is, you'd never have a 'closed hold' waltz and when in open embrace, the 'shape' formed by the dancers is completely different.. In Tango, the dancers form a kind of 'A' shape and in a waltz its more of a 'Y'
Pretty much - I tend to think of it as an upside-down "Y" for Tango.

So the main point is, Waltz and MJ just have inherent problems in co-existing, and it's difficult to see how they can be overcome.

[Lory]

It's absolutely possible to dance MJ without any accordion movements.
And any movements which pass each other?
Or individual spins?
OK, your on. :devil:

Lets see what you can come up with on Sunday :na:

Oh and don't forget to find a track with a suitable tempo too! :D

I'll bring my video!


To me, tension and compression is an integral part of standard Modern Jive.Exactly! And its something that waltz doesn't have!

[David Bailey]

And any movements which pass each other?
Or individual spins?
Blimey, how many more pre-conditions do you want?

But yes, Blues-style.

Mind you, it's arguable whether that is then real MJ...

[Lory]

Pretty much - I tend to think of it as an upside-down "Y" for Tango.

Well yeah but I wasn't clever enough to think of doing that! :respect:

[Lory]

Blimey, how many more pre-conditions do you want?



I purely want to see, if you can come up with 'ANY' sort of fusion :confused:

[Lory]

David, this is your prep for Sunday :wink:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4quOADKJrA
:whistle::D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve82-LCzXFI&feature=related Demo of the basics steps, which I think demonstrates, that although its slow and smooth, the turns/spins still have that 'whooshing' feel about them, that I was talking about.

[David Bailey]

David, this is your prep for Sunday :wink:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4quOADKJrA
:whistle::D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve82-LCzXFI&feature=related Demo of the basics steps, which I think demonstrates, that although its slow and smooth, the turns/spins still have that 'whooshing' feel about them, that I was talking about.
There's one tiny problem; I don't really know how to waltz. :D

[Lory]

There's one tiny problem; I don't really know how to waltz. :D

:what::doh::banghead::lol::lol:

[steveha]

Waltz and MJ? I can't see how that'd work...

I think it could.

I was at an Qzark Mountain Traditional Dance workshop recently given by Steve Green. Some of the couple dances were in waltz time and he had the men leading some moves that were like MJ returns and blocks. I threw in a few catapults and man's spins (still keeping to the waltz time) and they sort of worked. The main limitation was that my partner was getting uncomfortable with how far we were from everyone else.

I'd love to find a place with, good waltz music, women who know MJ, can waltz and have a "dare to be different" attitude…

[FirstMove]

...for a start, I wonder how people are supposed to dance a 3/4 dance to 4/4 music?? I have no doubt that 'some' will try to though :sick::doh::rofl:

The Sugababes song "Round Round" gets played at MJ events, complete with 24 bars of 3/4 in the middle of it. I either try to Waltz, using my two rubbish moves, or go to slow-quick-slow-quick timing. My partner may or may not oblige.

[Lory]

The Sugababes song "Round Round" gets played at MJ events, complete with 24 bars of 3/4 in the middle of it. I either try to Waltz, using my two rubbish moves, or go to slow-quick-slow-quick timing. My partner may or may not oblige.
Sorry to be pedantic but that's not actually 3/4 timing.. its 6/8 :flower:

[DavidY]

Sorry to be pedantic but that's not actually 3/4 timing.. its 6/8 :flower:You may be right, but how would you be sure? There's not much difference between the two, and you can't always tell by listening to something.

In the choirs I've sung in, conductors have occasionally swapped between conducting 3/4 to 6/8 (or just conducting "in one") because of what works better at the time, regardless of what the score might say. In music that comes out of a sequencer, it's even less of an issue.

[Lory]

You may be right, but how would you be sure? There's not much difference between the two, and you can't always tell by listening to something.



I beg to differ, the ONLY way to tell is by listening! :wink:

[David Bailey]

Looks like Jive Nation are getting into the act now - they're doing a "Ballistic Ballroom" course (http://ballisticballroom.eventbrite.com/?ref=ebtn)from 5th November.

Any feedback on the Ceroc course - has anyone on here attended the classes?