I couldn't get outside so thought I'd post here . . .

[Chris]

As it seems easily to end up outside if I make a post I thought I'd start outside to save the trouble. :D

But I find you can't start a thread outside (learn something new everyday) so it's here just now.

There seems to be almost three forums in one here.

1) there's people who don't have any specific unswerving loyalty or animosity to any one group but welcome discussion about dance, theory and practice.

2) there's people who treat the Forum as a sort of Ceroc fan club - whilst this is not my attitude it's valid enough and I can see that some people may feel a Forum set up as a Ceroc Forum shouldn't be critical (unless very reverent about it)!

3) there's people who use it as a sort of 'chat with friends' club - and the two main groups are a regularly posting Scottish crowd and people they are closely knit with from down south and, almost as an add-on, a group from London and who do the same but for down there.

Sometimes it would be good if it was a bit clearer where the emphasis was. The moderator has said that posts for or against Ceroc are welcome, but everyone has their limits - the investments of time and energy usually entail an emotional involvement too. Even if I have similar aims to Franck it might not seem like it to him and it's his Forum! Other than that I don't really care if people 'like' me here - I'm more interested in whether they want to discuss dance with me.

I think many people, like me, also quite enjoy just reading, especially the occasional witty posts or the odd ones that maybe has something stimulating to say about dancing. It would be nice if more people posted and more people felt free to post what they think.

As I'm one of the more forthright of posters I maybe get more PMs from people who say they don't post regularly - I really do appreciate these, especially when the regular posters can be closely networked and see me as not one of the group.

I'm not worried about popularity - if I've got to 'be nice' to people I need a bigger carrot than the Forum can offer. I have nothing to promote of my own here - teaching, franchise, dance nights or even myself as a dancer. I like to promote dance per se. As a hobby.

I'm fairly consistent and, bottom line, don't hold anything against anyone, whatever they say to me. This is not exactly the United Nations - nothing you or I say here is that important, really, and people should maybe not take it too seriously.

Anyone who wants to get in touch at any time, whether I'm posting or not, it's nice to hear from you. And if you need a listening ear don't worry about if you've slagged me off in the past - it happens - no worries.

(This post is aimed more at people who don't post often and actually like my posts, but if the regulars want to rip it up, feel free. :D )

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Chris

I'm not worried about popularity - if I've got to 'be nice' to people I need a bigger carrot than the Forum can offer.
I'm fairly consistent and, bottom line, don't hold anything against anyone, whatever they say to me.



very laudable sentiment, and in keeping with all that - here is your carrot....:wink:

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Mikey
very laudable sentiment, and in keeping with all that - here is your carrot....:wink:

now, with my reputation for niceness also firmly in mind - do be careful where you put it...:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Chris
Sometimes it would be good if it was a bit clearer where the emphasis was. The moderator has said that posts for or against Ceroc are welcome, but everyone has their limits - the investments of time and energy usually entail an emotional involvement too. Even if I have similar aims to Franck it might not seem like it to him and it's his Forum!There is no emphasis... at least, no permanent, written in stone emphasis.
The forum is organic in growth and moods, every time we get a large number of new posters, everyone has to find their posting feet and settle in. In the process, the quality, tone and topics of posts can change dramatically.
I wouldn't want to 'force' the Forum in any particular way, and see myself as the custodian, not a leader. I have great trust and faith in people and every day the Forum proves me right! We go through rough patches, but some of the most inspiring discussions have taken place already, and I'm sure this is only the beginning!

I must say I disagree with your views on the 'limits' of the Forum. I don't think there are any limits, or at least, none that you or anybody else got close to.
The recent troubles you got involved in stemmed more from the tone of your posts rather than the content. The many points you raised in your latest thread (at least 4 or 5) would have deserved a separate thread, and would have been clearer to Forum readers.
A long post like this one and the last 2 or 3 threads you started makes it very difficult to answer on topic as everyone will pick up a different aspect to argue / discuss. Short, open questions would have been more successful.

If you disagree that the Forum can take some serious / robust discussion, all you need to do is browse back through old threads... some of them could do with being resurrected, others I would rather forget :wink:

You are right that I have invested emotionally in both the Forum and Ceroc, but as much as possible, I will allow all discussions to take place.
It is, of course, possible that attacking the chosen 'addiction' of many Forum members will result in some of them getting upset, and while you might have broad shoulders and not care what other people think, not everyone is like that, and some people can be very sensitive.
All I ask is that we *all* try to be aware and sensitive to how other people might read what we post and stay (reasonably) civil.

The carrot for all of us, is to actually make real friends, and get a deeper understanding of what we all enjoy: dancing! :nice:

Franck.

[Minnie M]

Wow !

Just spent the last 10 minutes on your web page Chris - what a very interesting chap you are :hug:

I found the 'family' home page very haunting - and have still got 'Have you wondered why' repeating itself in my head.

This is an open forum for all and we need good honest posts whether we agree or not :cheers: keep 'em coming :cheers:

Minnie Mouse (aka Lynda's List) (http://www.lyndaslist.com)

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Franck
The carrot for all of us, is to actually make real friends, and get a deeper understanding of what we all enjoy: dancing! :nice:


:cheers: :cheers: HEAR HEAR :cheers: :kiss: :hug: :cheers: to all my new friends - and thank you Franck, long may the forum live (and I have definitely got to get Broadband now)

[Bill]

Originally posted by Chris
As it seems easily to end up outside if I make a post I thought I'd start outside to save the trouble. :D

Sometimes it would be good if it was a bit clearer where the emphasis was.

I don't really care if people 'like' me here - I'm more interested in whether they want to discuss dance with me.

I'm not worried about popularity - if I've got to 'be nice' to people I need a bigger carrot than the Forum can offer. An interesting start to the thread Chris but as so often happens you add so many personal statements , as Franck says, it makes it difficult to respond.

I don't see why it has to be clearer as to why people use the forum. Sometimes I just browse quickly and other times I want to add a post. Some folk do seem to use it just to chat to friends and have long 'personal' conversations while otehrs do appear to concentrate on specific dance related subjects.

As for not caring if people like you.......well that's your choice and of course no-one can be liked by everyone ( well very few anyway) but I think you are guilty of using very patronising language and if you either don't think you do then I think some of the replies saying that you do should make you consider whether you are aware of how you use language. Enough people have told you that which suggests it's no conincidence.

[Forte]

I chat to people on here I have never met and feel a friendship through dance with them...some of them I am so in tune with and it is lovely...again I have never met the majority of them...

Just for the record I hold the following quote to be true:


"I disagree with everything you say and will defend to the death your right to say it "(Voltaire)

(You have to read it more than once sometimes to get the sentiment).

The key thing is your tone...It's not what you say...it is the way that you say it...chill and say nice things for a few weeks and make "friends"
I was very nervous about posting at first but it is fun!
:grin:

[Chris]

Originally posted by Bill
I think you are guilty of using very patronising language
Bill, chill out, mate. That's at least the second time you've called me patronising. I don't go hurling insults at people like that. If you want to infer an insult from a constructive criticism or what you see as praise for someone else, go ahead, but if you keep calling me names that's insulting, not imagined things.

A lot of people have not got hold of what insulting is. A good reference is Robert's Rules of Order - or, for folk who don't want to look it up, think 'parliamentary language'. There's things MPs say to each other in the most fiery debate, but if they start calling each other names that's where the lines drawn.

To say that 'lots of other people say so' doesn't make it any better, just means they're as insulting as you are if you call me names. (Want me to tell you how many PMs I've had from people who support my posts but don't want to say so beacuse they'll get slagged off too?) And that's leaving aside the fact that many of the people who do it are Edinburgh-Dundee folk who go out of their way not to speak to me or make a point of freezing me out if they can. That's not unparliamentary - the Sinn Fein and UDP do it all the time between chanbers except when they 'have' to speak to each other - but it's just ignorant (if you'll excuse one unparliamentary word from me).


On a different note, can I recommend evertyone goes to see Lord of the Rings: Return of the King today or as soon as possible. It's monumental - all the rave reviews you've heard are true. I've just been to see it. It's put me in such a good mood I'm getting off here before you lot depress me. (Let me know when you want to talk about dancing!)
Anyway, keep going, and you'll get this thread put in the Take It Outside bit, which is where I wanted it to be anyway. :grin:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Chris
Bill, chill out, mate. That's at least the second time you've called me patronising.

He didn't. He said you are guilty of using patronising language.


A lot of people have not got hold of what insulting is.This could easily be construed as an example.

Chris

[psyc0diver]

Originally posted by Chris


There's things MPs say to each other in the most fiery debate, but if they start calling each other names that's where the lines drawn.


Just an interesting aside - MP's are not allowed to call each other liars in the house - even if they have proof literally in their hands! - parliamentary rules - hence the 'economical with the truth statements' :rolleyes:

[Forte]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris
[B]
To say that 'lots of other people say so' doesn't make it any better, just means they're as insulting as you are if you call me names. (Want me to tell you how many PMs I've had from people who support my posts but don't want to say so beacuse they'll get slagged off too?) And that's leaving aside the fact that many of the people who do it are Edinburgh-Dundee folk who go out of their way not to speak to me or make a point of freezing me out if they can. That's not unparliamentary - the Sinn Fein and UDP do it all the time between chanbers except when they 'have' to speak to each other - but it's just ignorant (if you'll excuse one unparliamentary word from me).



We are all individuals...you keep suggesting there are cliques in ceroc...if there are then how come a newbie like me and a newbie like Trampy managed to make friends in every city within weeks of joining Ceroc this year...? As I said before I also have the impression that I have friends on the forum that I haven't even met.

I wonder if you are a little paranoid and of course that is just going to put people off. Can you try to just post non contentious things for a few days?

I am trying to help...but pretty soon I am going to get tired of chatting to you if it is all so negative...:hug:

[Chris]

Originally posted by Forte
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris
[B]Can you try to just post non contentious things for a few days?
Forte, you are so sweet! :hug:

I do actually post a lot of non-contentious things - look at the polls I've posted, posts on ration of men to women, happy birthday messages, on blues, on how young is too young - just click my 'show all messages' and you'll see I'm not always a contentious person. :)

On some serious issues no-one will touch them unless someone stirs them up a bit. My devotion is to dance first. Most of my dancer friends have passed pretty scathing remarks about the Forum and don't post, or don't post very often.

On the contentious stuff it's mostly me taking the flak. It's lovely to meet people here, but I'll probably only see them again on a dancefloor, and there I would rather make a dance connection on the basis of dancing, gelling on the dancefloor.

We've only had two dances I didn't know who you were but I guess I must have enjoyed them and hope we dance again. You have the advantage of anonimity :tears:

btw on my other topic - have you seen Lord of the Rings!! It's fab!!:wink:

[Gadget]

To be honest Chris, I don't really "get" this thread; You seem intent on categorising and segmenting the people who post here - at last count there were 698 types of people on the forum.
By trying to put people in distinct 'types' you are encouraging people to stand on one side of a line or another. If there is a line and segregation then people will start to throw stones at each other because 'they' are different from 'us'.
Everyone is in their own category; they may share similar traits with other forumites and naturally want to explore these avenues of discussion, but why should you(we) group them together as having identical philosophies?
Isn't this behaviour more closely related to the Northern Ireland dissidents?

We are all here because of our love of dance. We all have the common ground that Ceroc has been/is a part of our dancing life.


{BTW Franck's advice on smaller postings is some you should consider ("hello pot, kettle calling." :sick: ) - follow up postings can be used to further explain your view point.}

[Chris]

Originally posted by Gadget
{BTW Franck's advice on smaller postings is some you should consider ("hello pot, kettle calling." :sick: ) - follow up postings can be used to further explain your view point.}

I'm bored with the tirades - I wasn't going to post anymore at all. When I glance between forums I'm on, I've got an intense discussion of Lord of the Rings in one, analysis of Virginia Woolf, Marquis de Sade and morality in books and films on another, and this one - people getting hot under the collar. :confused:

I can't discuss controversial topics cos the high posters would rather lecture me on my tone which puts lots of other people off - honestly, it feels like a playground! It's not worth me logging on to say "oh me too!!!!!" and swap lots of smilies with folk I hardly know. I've switched off all my subscribed thread notifications and am raopidly losing the will to log on at all.

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Chris
I'm bored with the tirades - I wasn't going to post anymore at all. When I glance between forums I'm on, I've got an intense discussion of Lord of the Rings in one, analysis of Virginia Woolf, Marquis de Sade and morality in books and films on another, and this one - people getting hot under the collar. :confused:

I can't discuss controversial topics cos the high posters would rather lecture me on my tone which puts lots of other people off - honestly, it feels like a playground! It's not worth me logging on to say "oh me too!!!!!" and swap lots of smilies with folk I hardly know. I've switched off all my subscribed thread notifications and am raopidly losing the will to log on at all.

Your feelings are entirely your of your own making Chris and when you realise that very fact, you could well actually enjoy the forum a bit more... So many people have tried to explain again and again, it's not what your saying, it's how you are saying it.. you are putting your opinion across and causing insult in you use of wording.. maybe the forum is as fed up as you of all this crap you keep creating and harping on about.. or would that not occur to you i wonder ? Nobody wants you to stop posting just think before you type for once eh:wink:

Sadly i have the distinct feeling you actually enjoy what you creat and that will eventually come back to bite you should it turn out to be the case.. now you said you were in a good mood and didn't want to be depressed by the forum today.. so do yourself and the rest a favour.. go chill out:waycool:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chris
I'm bored with the tirades - I wasn't going to post anymore at all. When I glance between forums I'm on, I've got an intense discussion of Lord of the Rings in one, analysis of Virginia Woolf, Marquis de Sade and morality in books and films on another, and this one - people getting hot under the collar. :confused:

I can't discuss controversial topics cos the high posters would rather lecture me on my tone which puts lots of other people off - honestly, it feels like a playground! It's not worth me logging on to say "oh me too!!!!!" and swap lots of smilies with folk I hardly know. I've switched off all my subscribed thread notifications and am raopidly losing the will to log on at all. Sorry Chris....

I don't want you to leave. And I hope that it's not a case of what I've said.

However, you do seem to be taking the viewpoint of 'my hands are whiter than white', and it's all everyone else's fault (and, let's face it, most of the people who have said anything publically, haven't been supporting the way that you put your point across (NB, not what you say, the way you say it) - although, obviously I can't comment on the large number of people who have been supporting you privately in PMs).

Maybe if you were a little more willing to look at what you do, rather than just at what other people do (this is how I perceive your behaviour), and take some of the advice that has been offered, then you might find less antaganism, and more people willing to discuss your ideas, rather than just the way you put them across.

Steve

[Bill]

Originally posted by Chris
Bill, chill out, mate. That's at least the second time you've called me patronising. I don't go hurling insults at people like that.


Thi swill be my last repsonse to any of your threads Chris because I'm actually getting tired and bored by your responses and negativity.

I actually said that the start of your thread was interesting but accused you of using patronising language and from the replies to some of your comments I'm not alone in that view.

If you found that insulting I'd be surprised that it would botehr you given that you have said quite clearly that " I don't really care if people like me here". Why would it bother you what I say then????

You've also said that other people have said that either you are patronising or use patronising language. Doesn't that tell you something ??????

You have made some interesting comments and even if I disagree with you on some issues I would defend your right to say it ( as Forte quotes). What I've now said three times ( I think) is that you should be careful about how you phrase your comments but if you don't you shouldn't be surprised when people complain about your tone. And if you are tired with the tirades maybe you should give serious consideration as to why so many people seem to respond to you the way they do.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Bill
Thi swill be my last repsonse to any of your threads Chris
Bill, look through the back posts. I have many times posted friendly and non-controversial posts to your posts. I defy you to find a single instance of a time when you have replied to one of my posts except to lecture me. It's simple. You haven't. Your typo says it all.

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Chris
I'm bored with the tirades - I wasn't going to post anymore at all.

Oh well, maybe some folk just need to keep pushing...:devil:

This member of the "wee Scottish pleasant chats with friends clique" jury on the Forum agrees with the charge of being patronising (e.g. pigeonholing Forum members) and would add hypocritical. The last charge relates specifically to tirades (such as complaining about tirades!), rambling posts (the opening post of this thread), and opinionated high posters (erm, where does one start?).

Oops, I never say anything expect smiley social stuff - please ignore all this...I'm sure it's all ad hominem anyway whatever that means :nice: :o

PS Forte, Voltaire probably never said that, a biographer did - it's another of those Play it again Sam / beam me up Scotty things

PPS Chris, I just saw ROTK today and would agree it's fab, although it is fundamentally unfaithful to Tolkien's novel.

[jivecat]

Originally posted by Chris
When I glance between forums I'm on, I've got an intense discussion of Lord of the Rings in one, analysis of Virginia Woolf, Marquis de Sade and morality in books and films on another, and this one - people getting hot under the collar. :confused:

I can't discuss controversial topics cos the high posters would rather lecture me on my tone which puts lots of other people off - honestly, it feels like a playground! It's not worth me logging on to say "oh me too!!!!!" and swap lots of smilies with folk I hardly know. I've switched off all my subscribed thread notifications and am raopidly losing the will to log on at all.

Chris, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and have really appreciated the exploration of deeper issues which you so clearly enjoy. What has also struck me as a newish-comer to the forum is
how much personal information you have chosen to share. I looked at your web-site with great interest but also felt slightly intimidated. Perhaps you're easier to attack because people know so much about you? I'm referring to the recurring accusations of being patronising- perhaps you are just too damn clever for a lot of people.

All the bickering about the politics of the forum itself gets boring quite quickly. Let's get back to talking about dance- which you do brilliantly.

Any chance of sharing the LOTR forum with us? For when I get really fed up with the Ceroc Scotland forum!

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Chris

There seems to be almost three forums in one here.

1) there's people who don't have any specific unswerving loyalty or animosity to any one group but welcome discussion about dance, theory and practice.
2) there's people who treat the Forum as a sort of Ceroc fan club - whilst this is not my attitude it's valid enough and I can see that some people may feel a Forum set up as a Ceroc Forum shouldn't be critical (unless very reverent about it)!
3) there's people who use it as a sort of 'chat with friends' club - and the two main groups are a regularly posting Scottish crowd and people they are closely knit with from down south and, almost as an add-on, a group from London and who do the same but for down there.


You seem to be quick to pigeon hole people here, Id say all 3 areas apply to the vast majority of us. Personally Id say I dont have any specific bias, Id certainly say Im pro-ceroc but am quite willing to talk about dance in general and hopefully constructively criticise anything and everything for the sake of intelligent discussion and I certainly have a lot of friends on here that I mingle with in real life at dance events and such. The forum is whatever you want to make of it surely.



The moderator has said that posts for or against Ceroc are welcome, but everyone has their limits

Franck has made it clear that the 'limits' are personal abuse. Practically everything else is fine, it has to be - this is a public forum. Lets look at a scenario here : If you speak to people in polite company in a 'real' face to face social situation such as a pub you would be asked to leave if you started verbally attacking people; all other topics of conversation would generally be fine - it would be quite strange for someone to announce 'tonight we only talk about dance, anyone who goes off at a tangent can leave'. This, I think, is what we have here and it should be treated as such. Its on a bigger scale, with many conversations going on, but you can pick and choose what you read and respond to - unlike the pub when you could be stuck next to the bore who only goes on and on about Christmas shopping ...er...for example. Of course, you could slap them and leave, but the beauty of the forum is....you dont have to. Just skip it. 90% of my posts have not been read for just that reason :).


Even if I have similar aims to Franck it might not seem like it to him and it's his Forum! Other than that I don't really care if people 'like' me here - I'm more interested in whether they want to discuss dance with me.

They will or they won't, its up to them. Although this is very much a 'conversations you could have in a pub' type forum, thats only because Franck wanted it to be and its grown up that way. There are many forums where there is strict moderation and conversations are prevented from going off at a tangent, which keeps the information 'pure' for people looking through it. However, that requires a lot of work on the part of the moderators and it has little soul or character, it just becomes an information store. More importantly, it doesnt seem to be what Franck wants for this particular forum.



It would be nice if more people posted and more people felt free to post what they think.

People do seem to be posting what they think, there may well be people holding back but that is up to them, they would probably behave the same way in the 'pub situation' too.


especially when the regular posters can be closely networked and see me as not one of the group.


You are as much part of the forum group as everyone else, most of us don't know each other. 'Closely networked' is an illusion created from the easy triviality and general friendliness of some of the nonsense posted on here sometimes. Quick test: can someone lend me 100 pounds? There won't be many who know me well enough that their first thought would be 'no problem', the connection you have with someones avatar on here and the connection you actually have with them as a person are not very closely related at all.
I feel connected to people on here as a group simply because I post, not because I feel that they have to hang off my every word.


nothing you or I say here is that important, really, and people should maybe not take it too seriously.

You say that, but your post suggests you perhaps take this forum far too seriously. To suggest that nothing people say here is that important, is your opinion - maybe you feel your posts aren't important but other people do often make a point because they think it is an important point to make. Also not so strangely, some people do take the words of people they respect seriously - and I can guarantee that your statement will be taken as patronising by some. We're not all the same, its the differences that make us interesting to others. And, Yes, I am aware that my statement 'maybe your posts aren't important' could be taken as patronising by you and although it was not meant to be, it highlights my point: people will take different intentions and meanings from any series of words that anyone on here can string together. Rarely do we go back and re-analyse every nuance of a sentance; we read it, make an opinion and move on. To some, Im probably extremely boring now, but Im not having palpatations over it.

Actually I am, I just had a large mochaccino :).

[Bill]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Quick test: can someone lend me 100 pounds? There won't be many who know me well enough that their first thought would be 'no problem',


Oh I don't know............I'm sure Mrs DS would come to your rescue. :D

In fact I'd lend you £100......if I got lots of dances with Mrs DS and the interest rate was 45%:na: :wink:

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Bill
...In fact I'd lend you £100......if I got lots of dances with Mrs DS and the interest rate was 45%:na: :wink:
I'm sure she'd be more than half intersted in dancing with you :grin:

Lend Smurfey a ton :what: ! I should cocoa :grin:

[Bill]

Originally posted by jivecat
perhaps you are just too damn clever for a lot of people.

All the bickering about the politics of the forum itself gets boring quite quickly. Let's get back to talking about dance- which you do brilliantly.



And all of us would agree with the latter statement but the former comment could be taken to imply that many 'forumites' are not terribly clever. I know Chris and he is certainly a bright and able man but so are almost all the other posters I know but few people have attracted the comments Chris has perhaps because they are a little more careful in their use of language.

As for last episode of LOTR....................seeing it at the weekend and disappointed to here that the end may have been altered :sad:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Bill
but the former comment could be taken to imply that many 'forumites' are not terribly clever.

Yeah, and ? :D

[Bill]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Yeah, and ? :D


sorry I just didn't want to "name and shame" but if you insist................................ be nice to DS he's not that bright :hug: :D

[Graham]

Originally posted by Bill
As for last episode of LOTR....................seeing it at the weekend and disappointed to here that the end may have been altered :sad: Yes, Sauron winning was certainly a bit of a shocker. :what:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Graham
Yes, Sauron winning was certainly a bit of a shocker. :what: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Steve