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Martin
16th-December-2003, 01:05 PM
Having attended many "National" competitions across Australia and coming across the same faces at Sydney, Brisbane, Canberra and Melbourne, yes even the UK.

My thoughts turn to the concept of regional heats.

I would love to see regional heats where the top 3 from each division go through to the Nationals (which are held in a different City each year).

This would give a boost to far more local dancers being "the local champ" and competing on behalf of thier dance school/region.

So what are your thoughts?

Marty

spindr
16th-December-2003, 01:55 PM
What an excellent idea!

On a similar idea, I think it would be nice to have some "taster" competitions between "rival" venues -- when I did ballroom at Southampton, there was an annual friendly competition between the students at the local ballroom club, and the students at the university class. No one took it too seriously -- but there wasn't too much of a barrier to competing (and having fun). I think this sort of idea *could* be where franchises would have an advantage in organising a series of mini-competitions between students from adjacent franchises (and maybe even between the franchisees themselves :) ).

SpinDr.

Martin
16th-December-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by spindr
What an excellent idea!

On a similar idea, I think it would be nice to have some "taster" competitions between "rival" venues -- when I did ballroom at Southampton, there was an annual friendly competition between the students at the local ballroom club, and the students at the university class. No one took it too seriously -- but there wasn't too much of a barrier to competing (and having fun). I think this sort of idea *could* be where franchises would have an advantage in organising a series of mini-competitions between students from adjacent franchises (and maybe even between the franchisees themselves :) ).

SpinDr.

A great idea, I am not sure that "rival venues" would work in the UK market. IMHO take Hipsters vs ? (Let's not go there) also many dancers dance across venues.

In an ideal world it would involve "Where you live" not "where you dance". With highly populated areas such as London being broken down into regions.

The challenges would be consistancy of judging (my preference being local judges from modern dance AND the wider dance community) and open to all organisations, not just one company running their own.

It would take dance organisers in each region being able to talk to each other for the greater good of competition.

Gus
16th-December-2003, 02:13 PM
Intersting concept ... not sure how well it would work in practice. There are some 'hot-spot' areas of competitors ... e.g. London, Brighton, Bristol, Ceroc Central, Glasgow/Edinburgh/Dundee/Aberdeen ....... then it goes a bit quiet. However, not sure of many competitors from Wales, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle etc ..... Could work but the areas would have to be well thought out. Of course ... if it could be 'just for fun' so much the better.

Martin
16th-December-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Intersting concept ... not sure how well it would work in practice. There are some 'hot-spot' areas of competitors ... e.g. London, Brighton, Bristol, Ceroc Central, Glasgow/Edinburgh/Dundee/Aberdeen ....... then it goes a bit quiet. However, not sure of many competitors from Wales, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle etc ..... Could work but the areas would have to be well thought out. Of course ... if it could be 'just for fun' so much the better.

Nothing great was ever achieved by being reasonable.

The fact that there are "hot spots" and not so "hot spots" is the whole point. So that people can feel a sence of achievement in thier region. Where prehaps they would not otherwise stand a chance in the Nationals, this would encorage dancers in the growing areas of MJ/Ceroc.

Being in Sydney I know I have shot myself in the foot somewhat, as I am myself in a "hot spot".

This could always run seperately to the established "open to international all comers" London and Blackpool events. [having said that the experience of myself + Adriana and another top Aussie couple being told we cannot compete in the Caberet for London Ceroc did effect my opinion of Ceroc London's definition of "open"]

Paul F
16th-December-2003, 02:31 PM
At the moment i feel it would be a bit one sided ie. you would have so many great dancers from the london area not being able to compete as there can be only one 'local champ'.

Also, would BOTH the man and the lady have to be from the same franchise/region?


We could do what many sports do.......my grandads, fathers, second cousin twice removed's cat was born in Cornwall so im claiming entry for the SW :D :D

Martin
16th-December-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Paul F
At the moment i feel it would be a bit one sided ie. you would have so many great dancers from the london area not being able to compete as there can be only one 'local champ'.

Also, would BOTH the man and the lady have to be from the same franchise/region?


We could do what many sports do.......my grandads, fathers, second cousin twice removed's cat was born in Cornwall so im claiming entry for the SW :D :D

London, I suppose that is the point of splitting London into several regions, the idea was the top 3 so not just one, really great to encorage the other areas. Don't forget there are some top dancers who live outside the centre of London...

My idea would be "Where you currently live", most dance partnerships live faily close to each other.

Obviously a lot of detail to consider. The concept being to encorage all across the UK. - And for that point also Australia

Paul F
16th-December-2003, 03:11 PM
I like that idea

TheTramp
16th-December-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Intersting concept ... not sure how well it would work in practice. There are some 'hot-spot' areas of competitors ... e.g. London, Brighton, Bristol, Ceroc Central, Glasgow/Edinburgh/Dundee/Aberdeen ....... then it goes a bit quiet. However, not sure of many competitors from Wales, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle etc ..... Could work but the areas would have to be well thought out. Of course ... if it could be 'just for fun' so much the better. Hmmm. I dunno Gus....

From Wales: Mark & Jackie (won many things). Also at least some (if not all) of the girls who've won several DT trophies in the last few years.

Manchester: Why, your good self. No need to be modest. And what about Laura. George. Sarah Waterhouse, Paul F. Isn't Stevie Wong up there too now? And does Stoke count as Manchester for the benefits of this comp? Then don't you have Punkfish and Sarah?

Birmingham: You've got Della who's won quite a few comps with Elliot, and Debbie. And the girls (sorry, can't remember their names) who competed with the hip hop routine in the Blackpool Showcase last year. And I'm sure that there must be some decent guys (Sorry, for some reason I'm better at identifying the ladies!). Maybe Cheltenham would count as Birmingham for this. Then you'd have H and Kirsty and Debbie. Not to mention James and Bridget.

Leeds: Well, there's your good lady partner, Miss Zambas. (And I'm sure others - though, I've never danced in Leeds).

Sheffield: D'oh. Dan Baines and Sue Freeman (though, I suppose that Dan wouldn't count if he doesn't live there now). And they have done very well in team cabarets, so they must have some other good dancers.

Newcastle: Again, I only really know the ladies. But there's Lynn (who won the first advanced in Scotland), and Ann, and a smaller lady who's name I admit I can't remember, but I always have great dances with her....

It's not that bleak outside the few places that you named....

Steve

Martin
16th-December-2003, 04:35 PM
Well Tramp all that is required now is someone who is well known across the UK and a good organiser :cheers: :wink:

TheTramp
16th-December-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Well Tramp all that is required now is someone who is well known across the UK and a good organiser :cheers: :wink: That'd be Adam then! :D

I believe that the Jive Master plan next year is to go with regional heats...... Please don't quote me on this one, but I think that I heard it someplace.

Steve

Franck
16th-December-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
That'd be Adam then! :D

I believe that the Jive Master plan next year is to go with regional heats...... Please don't quote me on this one, but I think that I heard it someplace. You might even have read it in this post! (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=28239&highlight=regional#post28239)

Nothing confirmed as yet but I believe Adam is seeking interest etc...

Franck.

TheTramp
16th-December-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Franck
You might even have read it in this post! (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=28239&highlight=regional#post28239)

Nothing confirmed as yet but I believe Adam is seeking interest etc...

Franck. That must be it. Proof that you can find out almost everything by reading the forum....

(I'd sort of figured that I probably read it here somewhere, was just way too lazy to go find it!) :D

Steve

Martin
16th-December-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
That must be it. Proof that you can find out almost everything by reading the forum....

(I'd sort of figured that I probably read it here somewhere, was just way too lazy to go find it!) :D

Steve

Fantastic news Franck and Tramp, maybe it could be extended to Intermediate, beginners,teams et al? (I can't spell caberet)

My main cercern being that it is truely open and not restricted.

Hey Franck I would love to meet up with you when I next come over, love the forum... Marty

Does that exclude the Aussies that do great moves but can't dance to the music:blush:

Franck
16th-December-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Martin
My main cercern being that it is truely open and not restricted.

Hey Franck I would love to meet up with you when I next come over, love the forum... Marty Yeah, I think the potential is really exciting... Different Venue operators organizing local heats and semi finals... Everyone travelling down to the Finals... :D

Would be great to meet everyone on the Forum (another great idea :wink: ). As it happens, I'm planning a Big Forum Gathering in September 2004 in Scotland! Would be great to have a plane load from Australia... :waycool:

Alternatively, make sure you tell us when you're next in the UK... and in the meantime, take good care of 'lil Linda (from the Dundee Mad. Crew) when she turns up in your nick of the woods :D

Franck.

Martin
16th-December-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Yeah, I think the potential is really exciting... Different Venue operators organizing local heats and semi finals... Everyone travelling down to the Finals... :D

Would be great to meet everyone on the Forum (another great idea :wink: ). As it happens, I'm planning a Big Forum Gathering in September 2004 in Scotland! Would be great to have a plane load from Australia... :waycool:

Alternatively, make sure you tell us when you're next in the UK... and in the meantime, take good care of 'lil Linda (from the Dundee Mad. Crew) when she turns up in your nick of the woods :D

Franck.

Sounds great. Why not have the finals in Scotland?- Now to persuade the Aussie crowd... I really thought this may be contentious, so glad it may well be a reality :D

Plane load in September = what you offering? A week of dancing, workshops all day (pay my airfare and I'll be there):cheers: dancing and teaching
:D

Looking forward to Linda's arrival, off sailing tomorrow in Sydney harbour, unfortunately she arrives mid afternoon :tears: a few hours too late.

Fortunately next day big dance party, of course me host, will look after her and take her along.:hug:

Have to treat her well for fear of Lily (she told me to make sure she had a great time) shame it is only 3 days:sad:

Open invite, anyone want to come to Sydney, let me know. Accomadation free (just ask Tramp or David and Lily)

Paul F
16th-December-2003, 06:26 PM
Maybe i shouldnt say this (as i love a good debate) but.....

after all the niggling thats gone on recently and with a lot of negative threads its so nice to have a really positive thread (and a great idea!!)

:cheers: :cheers:

Paul F
16th-December-2003, 06:32 PM
Is anyone going to go out on a limb and suggest the areas then :grin:

I would suggest not going franchise area (note: this is just an example of geographical area not ceroc v rest) by franchise area as there wouldnt be enough competition and it may get a bit ambiguous as to who lives in which franchise area!! ie, in the south there is obviously a higher concentration of areas.

Would it be best to just section off the countries? The only problem with this is splitting up london.

Go on , someone draw up a colour coded map :wink:

Could even go down the 'state of origin' idea from the NRL! (except we dont have states but you know what i mean):blush:

Martin
16th-December-2003, 06:42 PM
London easy, North, south, east, west. Take a map, not a franchise.

Kent outside London (there you go Nigel)

Have fun...

Gus
16th-December-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Maybe Cheltenham would count as Birmingham for this.
Steve

Think thats stretching a point ... I'd say that Cheltenham is nearer to Bristol.:wink:

Take your point about Mark and Jackie ... but without getting too personal nearly everone you've mentioned are advanced ... but not Advanced competition contenders. The only exceptions would be Helen and Pistol Pete (who I dont think you've come across) ... IMHO of course:waycool:

neilh
16th-December-2003, 07:42 PM
Have read this thread with interest, but it seems that only 1 person has actually mentioned independent operators. I KNOW that this IS a Ceroc forum but there ARE lots of options for dancers ( who vote with their feet if they have a choice ) . So would the heats ONLY be open to Ceroc members if they want to compete but don't regularly use a Ceroc venue?

spindr
16th-December-2003, 11:13 PM
Well, there's no reason independents can't do it, or Ceroc venues, or maybe even both?

I guess all that's required is the purchase of a glove to throw down -- and a buckling a swash (or two): "I challenge you and your scurvy students to lay it down on the dance floor" :)

Then the two crews get together and lay down some moves.

Maybe picking the judges might be more problematic.

TheTramp
17th-December-2003, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by neilh
Have read this thread with interest, but it seems that only 1 person has actually mentioned independent operators. I KNOW that this IS a Ceroc forum but there ARE lots of options for dancers ( who vote with their feet if they have a choice ) . So would the heats ONLY be open to Ceroc members if they want to compete but don't regularly use a Ceroc venue? A lot of the people I listed aren't from Ceroc. A number of the people that competed in the Jive Masters this year don't habitually frequent Ceroc venues (Rena, Simon Selmon, Kerrin (Ginger Jive), Amir, etc.).

I do take your point Gus, that most of the people I quoted probably wouldn't stand much of a chance of winning in the final. But if you only took the people who were probably capable of winning in the final, then there would be no point in having the regional heats, since I think most of the people I'd back, are from London. So you might just as well hold all the heats there, and any serious contenders would make the trip.

I think the idea would be to put on a show in each of the regions, and hopefully, for most people, it would be for enjoyment, as much as the competative thing.

Steve

Paul F
17th-December-2003, 01:13 PM
i was just thinking about the point mentioned by spindr. Judging.

For example, say myself , jo, gus, george and others competed in our regional event.............Who would judge it??

Are we still going with the 'audience are judges' idea??

If so, ive got to add that im very wary of such an idea. I went to a couple of the jive masters heats. Some fantastic displays of dancing with great atmospheres but i couldnt help thinking that the winners of a couple of the heats were decided before they even stepped foot on the dancefloor.

I saw one couple inparticular whose reception when they walked onto the floor completely eclipsed the reception the others got for their performance :what:

I guess that there isnt really ANY fair way of judging so i suppose this is the nearest we will get.

Gus
17th-December-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I do take your point Gus, that most of the people I quoted probably wouldn't stand much of a chance of winning in the final. But if you only took the people who were probably capable of winning in the final, then there would be no point in having the regional heats, since I think most of the people I'd back, are from London. ......I think the idea would be to put on a show in each of the regions, and hopefully, for most people, it would be for enjoyment, as much as the competative thing.

Steve

Steve, absolutely agree ... and please ignore my previous posting .. the workings of a disillusioned mind and not enough sleep:sick:

If the purpose of such a competiton is to foster greater spirit and encouragement for dancers to inspire others, then there are many competitors throughout the country who should compete.

As to Paul's coments re judging, a very good point ... but there are a lot of teachers and known dancers who dont want to compete .... so they could alwys be an option. However ... I dont think that you will ever get away from a certain degree of favouritisim (be it to friends, students or dancing association). As long as people dont take it too seriously ... who cares:nice:

Sheepman
17th-December-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Gus
As long as people dont take it too seriously ... who cares:nice: Erm - just like the JiveMasters then? :devil:

Whatever you do, some will take it seriously, others won't, the ones that take it seriously, in general, will win.

I can't rationally explain at the moment why I think the whole thing is not a good idea. Maybe because I see it all heading down the Ballroom route, (which I only know about from hearsay), maybe because I don't want to be restricted to a partner from my "region" (whatever that is, and don't get me wrong, some of the VERY best partners are right here), maybe we've got enough competions already, maybe 'cos I know I won't stand a chance :tears:

greg

Martin
17th-December-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp

I think the idea would be to put on a show in each of the regions, and hopefully, for most people, it would be for enjoyment, as much as the competative thing.

Steve

Fully agree Tramp, some people may be put off competing because they look at past winners and consider that they would not be able to win.
after all we all like a chance to win.

This way there can be many more "winners" all over the country, building to a fantastic National final.

Enjoyment / competition, it can be the same thing. There is certainly enjoyment in putting on the best possible show that you can.

The great thing I am getting from this thread is not the old "why we can't do it" but "How can we do it"

You go guys...

Bill
17th-December-2003, 03:30 PM
Sounds like a good idea but as someone who has participated in competitions I'd say that although it should be fun I think there could be extra pressure on the dancers if they were not just representing themselves but their region as well.

It might be fun to watch but this might already be covered by the Jive Masters comp. Would Scotland be a region on its own ? I can think of several dancers and couples up here who could do well and might enjoy it but be interesting to think of who would judge.

I get stressed at 'normal' comps but Fran and I were shaking before we went on at the Scottish heat of Jive Masters but I'd love to watch everyone else do it. And would that mean Steve would have to represent Scotland.................. or Dundee...........or Aberdeen........or Glasgow ????????? :D or Wales :rolleyes:

Martin
17th-December-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
Erm - just like the JiveMasters then? :devil:

Whatever you do, some will take it seriously, others won't, the ones that take it seriously, in general, will win.

I can't rationally explain at the moment why I think the whole thing is not a good idea. Maybe because I see it all heading down the Ballroom route, (which I only know about from hearsay), maybe because I don't want to be restricted to a partner from my "region" (whatever that is, and don't get me wrong, some of the VERY best partners are right here), maybe we've got enough competions already, maybe 'cos I know I won't stand a chance :tears:

greg

Well maybe the regionals are not for you personally.

It is al about giving dancers a target and a reason to improve thier dancing.

As with project management, manageable smaller targets give encoragement along the way.

Martin
17th-December-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Bill

It might be fun to watch but this might already be covered by the Jive Masters comp.

Jive masters was I think just for advanced dancers.

The difference being sections for beginners, intermediate as well as teams, showcase etc.

RobC
17th-December-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Jive masters was I think just for advanced dancers.
Jive Masters was an invitation only competition, and (in general) you were only invited if you were a teacher, dance professional, or a previous competition winner.

neilh
17th-December-2003, 04:46 PM
Surely the ONLY healthy attitude is "hey,it's only dancing". Isn't it meant to be fun or am I missing the point? It doesn't matter if you compete or not - I've been dancing for about 7 years but have only done two competitions in that time ( pressure form dance partners to compete ) because I always felt that the only person who can judge your dancing is yourself. After all, we ALL know when we've had a good/bad night, don't we?

Bill
17th-December-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by neilh
I always felt that the only person who can judge your dancing is yourself. After all, we ALL know when we've had a good/bad night, don't we?

Possibly not !!:( .............at a recent competition I heard one man bemoan the standard of his pertner in the Lucky Dip event and he clealry felt it was her fault that they didn't progress to the next round. The truth was that he is not a terribly good dancer or leader but his partner is experienced and a very good follower. he obviously feels he's a good dancer though most women who dance with him would indicate otherwise.

So although most of us do know we've had 'one of those nights' some dancers will always assume the bad dances are not their fault.

TheTramp
17th-December-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Bill
And would that mean Steve would have to represent Scotland.................. or Dundee...........or Aberdeen........or Glasgow ????????? :D or Wales :rolleyes: Ummm. I guess that they'd draw straws, and whoever got the short straw, would have me representing them! :rolleyes:

Steve

Martin
17th-December-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Bill
Possibly not !!:( .............at a recent competition I heard one man bemoan the standard of his pertner in the Lucky Dip event and he clealry felt it was her fault that they didn't progress to the next round. The truth was that he is not a terribly good dancer or leader but his partner is experienced and a very good follower. he obviously feels he's a good dancer though most women who dance with him would indicate otherwise.

So although most of us do know we've had 'one of those nights' some dancers will always assume the bad dances are not their fault.

Too true, the great thing about lucky dip in the UK is "you can always blame it on your partner".

Been there done that, but only works with your loyal, sympathetic friends:blush:

One thing I have learnt on this forum is, NEVER call them a Lemon. (Sorry Sheena) :really:

Does not work any more in Aussie as you have to rotate and dance with 3 partners and you are marked individually. :sorry

Martin
17th-December-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. I guess that they'd draw straws, and whoever got the short straw, would have me representing them! :rolleyes:

Steve

That's easy Steve, you have quoted Dundee on your posts, so you are Dundee.

Now the challenge is finding a partner that will put up with you:blush:

:cheers:

Gadget
17th-December-2003, 05:17 PM
How far down the tree were you thinking on going? If you take it to it's roots, you could have a mico-competition for individual classes. Then one between the finalists in a city. Then one between the city finalists for a 'region'. Then regional finalists would compete for the UK wide title.
Quite a bit of organisation, and if it was done at this micro-level, then I would say that the teachers would be the best ones to judge it - unfortunatly this eliminates them from compeating.

And would it be a "fixed couples" competition?, or some sort of DWAS?

{Edit: - like the Oz version Martin suggested}

Martin
17th-December-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
How far down the tree were you thinking on going? If you take it to it's roots, you could have a mico-competition for individual classes. Then one between the finalists in a city. Then one between the city finalists for a 'region'. Then regional finalists would compete for the UK wide title.
Quite a bit of organisation, and if it was done at this micro-level, then I would say that the teachers would be the best ones to judge it - unfortunatly this eliminates them from compeating.

And would it be a "fixed couples" competition?, or some sort of DWAS?

{Edit: - like the Oz version Martin suggested}

I am hoping this is a "fun" suggestion and not serious.

Micro was never mentioned (anyone been the victim of micro-management in the past?)

Well at least it has got you thinking of the detail involved.

As an example in Aussie - I would see Brisbane area, Perth Area, Sydney area, Melbourne area and Canberra area.

Let's not get too micro...

TheTramp
17th-December-2003, 05:51 PM
What about Newcastle area??

Steve

Sheepman
17th-December-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Well maybe the regionals are not for you personally. Don't get me wrong, if it happens, I'll be there! Just try and stop me. I just wonder if the final would really be any different to any of the national finals, would there really be a significant number of new faces that would make it that far?

What would be really great is if all the dance organisations could cooperate enough to get something like this working.

Greg

Paul F
17th-December-2003, 06:13 PM
From what i have read (some great posts) it sounds like the biggest difference here is that the competitors will be representing somewhere!!

That brings with it a whole heap of pressure whether your taking it seriously or not. I dont even want to think how different people from your area would react if you messed up your final because you were messing around :rolleyes: :grin:

The obvious biggest plus is the sense of achievement even if its only on a local stage, that most people would encounter.

Right then , the only job now is to ascertain how we arrive at which area people represent then we are all set
:D :D

Tiggerbabe
17th-December-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Martin
(Sorry Sheena) :really:
:hug:

neilh
17th-December-2003, 08:07 PM
i LIKE Martin's suggestion of individual marking!

But also ( and I'm probably wrong ( and I'm sure people will tell me ! :wink: )) but isn't the lucky dip / dance with a stranger the only way to show that you can ACTUALLY dance with anybody, not just somebody you dance with all the time? So why do people keep maligning these type of comps? Is it because they can't cope with people they don't know or is it because they can't cope with DANCING with people they don't know...

Martin
18th-December-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by neilh
i LIKE Martin's suggestion of individual marking!

But also ( and I'm probably wrong ( and I'm sure people will tell me ! :wink: )) but isn't the lucky dip / dance with a stranger the only way to show that you can ACTUALLY dance with anybody, not just somebody you dance with all the time? So why do people keep maligning these type of comps? Is it because they can't cope with people they don't know or is it because they can't cope with DANCING with people they don't know...

DWAS, a large topic covered on another thread (and I don't want to get myself in trouble twice!)

Martin
18th-December-2003, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
What about Newcastle area??

Steve

Of course how could I forget John and Caroline :blush:

TheTramp
18th-December-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Martin
Of course how could I forget John and Caroline :blush: Dunno. I'm having difficulty forgetting Caroline.... Not that I'm trying very hard..... :drool:

Steve

DavidB
18th-December-2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by neilh
So why do people keep maligning these type of comps? Is it because they can't cope with people they don't know or is it because they can't cope with DANCING with people they don't know... I'm not sure we keep maligning DWAS comps. The only discussion seem to be whether they are run primarily as a test of lead and follow skills, or purely for fun.

Personally I think both approaches are valid - the only difference seems to be geography!

David

Gadget
18th-December-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Martin
I am hoping this is a "fun" suggestion and not serious.
Semi-serious suggestion:wink:; I think that I would have a chance of at least being placed if the competition was started at a micro level - I doubt that I would get past the first round on anything higher than that. :sick:

(I have the likes of BTC Bill, psych0diver (Craig),... erm.... and a couple of other excelent leads {...damn I wish I was better with names...}, . Although Scooby Hancock has emegrated to Glasgow and Tramp has to compete under Dudee's flag, so that's a couple less dance idols to compete against :rolleyes: )

Graham W
18th-December-2003, 05:03 PM
I am into comps myself (also for the social dancing..)
Regional heats might be good for encouraging grass roots interest.. When I started dancing I felt that national competitions werent for newies/mortals & that was reinforced by one or two people that did go to the comps, so it would be a good antidote to that...partic as new 'talent' can be exciting to watch in competitions...

Hey could we have regional heats for aus comp in Bristol...
er, first few couples get free flight..:-)

G

Martin
19th-December-2003, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Graham W
I am into comps myself (also for the social dancing..)
Regional heats might be good for encouraging grass roots interest.. When I started dancing I felt that national competitions werent for newies/mortals & that was reinforced by one or two people that did go to the comps, so it would be a good antidote to that...partic as new 'talent' can be exciting to watch in competitions...

Hey could we have regional heats for aus comp in Bristol...
er, first few couples get free flight..:-)

G

Sounds like a great idea to me, especially with your offer of providing people with free flights:cheers: good on you.:D

Gus
19th-December-2003, 09:34 AM
OK ... how about a practical suggestion (:confused: )

How about nominated club/orgabisations taking responsibiltiy for their area;

e.g.

Wales - Planet LeRoc
Bristol - LeRoc
Mid South Coast - Mo'Jive
Brum - Ceroc (Solihull ?)
Cambs/Lincs etc - Ceroc Central
N West - Blitz (Bowden/Chester)
N East - Blitz (Sheffield/Leeds)
NNEast - Ceroc Newcastle

etc etc

Good Idea / Bad Idea?

PS ..... should be one hell of a bun-fight to see who gets London :wink: :devil: :wink:

Gadget
19th-December-2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Gus
How about nominated club/organisations taking responsibiltiy for their area;
Good idea, but I think that there would be too much politics and internal rivalry between clubs for this to work. I would love to think that everyone would work together, but I just can't see it. :sad:

How about each club/organisation having their own heats for an area, then having the winners from these duel it out with another independant judge?

TheTramp
19th-December-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Good idea, but I think that there would be too much politics and internal rivalry between clubs for this to work. I would love to think that everyone would work together, but I just can't see it. :sad:

How about each club/organisation having their own heats for an area, then having the winners from these duel it out with another independant judge? Yeah to what Gadget said.

You'd never manage to agree who would run each area. Take Bristol for example, there are 4 different Le Roc organisations (I think). Or Brighton. Where there are 4 different organisations, and they all hate each other :D

The one problem with Gadget's suggestion, is that lots of people would go to all the different organisations. How would you select which one you'd compete at....

Steve

Graham W
19th-December-2003, 05:34 PM
There is the LeRoc fed in based in bristol which also helped in Brighton comp..G

Martin
19th-December-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Yeah to what Gadget said.

You'd never manage to agree who would run each area. Take Bristol for example, there are 4 different Le Roc organisations (I think). Or Brighton. Where there are 4 different organisations, and they all hate each other :D

The one problem with Gadget's suggestion, is that lots of people would go to all the different organisations. How would you select which one you'd compete at....

Steve

The suggestion was by region not by organisation. So you would only need one person in each region to put thier hand up. As to selecting which one to compete at = where you currently live.

It is about representing a region not an organisation.

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2003, 01:03 PM
I've only just spotted this thread, been working a bit - sorry:sorry

I gave the possibility of regional heats and a national final a great deal of thought after Graham approached me to organise the Britroc comp.

From the dancer's point of view I thought the whole thing would be FAB. But from the point of view of someoene who is in it for a living and needs to make money from it (ie.Graham's) it would be a lot of work for little finanacial return. And because any known organiser would be seen as biased it would be difficult to be seen as fair - even an independent person could be seen as having favourites!

My idea was to recruit a well known organiser in each region and hold a regional competition during the afternoon before a dance. The finals could then be during the evening at the dance in place of the 'icebreaker' lesson. This would give the organiser a major attraction at their dance so they sold more tickets but would not eat into freestyle. Although people would miss a lesson they would learn a great deal about dancing from watching the competition.

Competitors would need to live in the region. But would they both need to? What if they move house after they've won but before the final, etc. This ground has probably been covered by ballroom organisers already and wouldn't take much effort to replicate for modern jive.

My choice for judging would be by expert panel drawn from the actual region. They would be choosing the people to represent their area in a national competition so would not be partisan for their own pupils - I think the 'audience as judges' is a fun idea but can't be consistent across areas with different audiences. And I really do believe that an average ability audience misses the finer points of advanced dancers, especially musicality.

The final would need to have one judge from each region. We'd need to employ King Solomon to make that choice.

The national final would need to be in Birmingham (my choice) or Manchester/Leeds/M62 rather than London. This would make for easier travel from the south-west and the north and hotels are less expensive too:D - although it would probably be raining:sad:

When I was organising the Britroc comp I had long ongoing debates with a few competitors about the axis of serious vs fun. We ended up agreeing that whatever you chose a great number of competitors would take it seriously. And if one of your judging criteria was that couples looked like they were having fun people would practice and practice and practice looking like they were having fun... ..so for the competitors it's serious fun as I've read somewhere about Ceroc.

Oh, and I love the idea of 3 changes of partner for DWAS:waycool:

TheTramp
20th-December-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Martin
The suggestion was by region not by organisation. So you would only need one person in each region to put thier hand up. As to selecting which one to compete at = where you currently live.

It is about representing a region not an organisation. Yeah. And what happens if all 4 organisations put their hands up....? (As is, IMHO, quite likely to happen. Certainly in certain parts of the country!)

Steve

Gus
20th-December-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Yeah. And what happens if all 4 organisations put their hands up....? (As is, IMHO, quite likely to happen. Certainly in certain parts of the country!)

Steve

This is starting to sound like the typical New Product meeting you have at work ... everyone can spot the logical flaws but NOTHING will be achieved if everyone just talks .... it needs someone to do SOMETHING ..... any volunteers?:wink:

TheTramp
20th-December-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Gus
This is starting to sound like the typical New Product meeting you have at work ... everyone can spot the logical flaws but NOTHING will be achieved if everyone just talks .... it needs someone to do SOMETHING ..... any volunteers?:wink: Well. I guess that I'm hoping that Adam is going to continue the sucess of the Jive Masters, but making it bigger as was suggested in that thread that Franck supplied before (I'm still too lazy to go look it up again!).

I'm sure that he's reading this thread, and it'll be interesting to hear his views on what has been said so far, and what the plans (assuming that there are some) are...

Steve

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Yeah. And what happens if all 4 organisations put their hands up....? (As is, IMHO, quite likely to happen. Certainly in certain parts of the country!)

Steve

The answer is simple. The independent national organiser puts on the regional event and all of the local organisers that want to get to sell tickets at a profit.

JamesGeary
20th-December-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Too true, the great thing about lucky dip in the UK is "you can always blame it on your partner".

Does not work any more in Aussie as you have to rotate and dance with 3 partners and you are marked individually.

Wow. You Aussies take it seriously. My mind boggles imagining training for a lucky dip competition. Probably the best thing out. People work on their leading and following skills, which are great for social dancing, rather than flashy moves that you only get to do twice a year. Good idea.

Martin
20th-December-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Gus
This is starting to sound like the typical New Product meeting you have at work ... everyone can spot the logical flaws but NOTHING will be achieved if everyone just talks .... it needs someone to do SOMETHING ..... any volunteers?:wink:

Firstly Gus, thanks for your positive input - I truely believe this would be a fantastic thing to do.

Andy, well being the resident pedantic AND being supportive of this... good on you

Tramp, I know when you have "been around the traps" it is easy to see all the politics, let's get past that and have a "can do" attitude.

"Nothing great in life was ever achieved by being reasonable". - My favorite quote

I am pushing hard to get this going in Australia, if it happens in the UK, it is bound to happen soon in Australia, or you could wait for the Aussie's to show you the way...

I started this thread because I truely believe it can work.

Seriously guys who will take on the challenge?

the winners = the dancers who get a feeling of pride and achievement.

By the way in NZ it is the dancers who organise the champs and not the franchise owner. - Just another thought.

I know Camber is not Ceroc organised but what did it take, someone who had the balls to put it on the line and give it a go. How much dancer enjoyment (and pure hard cash) has come out of that idea?

I am not suggesting one organisation over another, just a person who will come up to the plate and give it a go.

Gus
20th-December-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Firstly Gus, thanks for your positive input - I truely believe this would be a fantastic thing to do.


Sorry Martin ... but I think I'm part of the problem .... love the idea but know that with my 'real life' commitements there is bu**er all I can do to drive it through:sad:

My earlier suggestions about getting local clubs orgabnisers/associations is that, though I realise the potential politics ... these people already have the contacts, marketing and physical reousrces to make it happen!

What is required up front is a date (say June 2004), a set of rules (Messr MsGregors would fit the bill), an incentive (Martin has put this well already), eager dancers (doh) and some focal point who recognises that the publicity arising would recompense thme for the time put in:grin:

So .... can someone do some homework to split thw whole UK into bite-sized areas ... we can then post this for people to volunteer to run each area ... put some rough guidelines up ... then figure out the details for the final .....

Martin
20th-December-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Sorry Martin ... but I think I'm part of the problem .... love the idea but know that with my 'real life' commitements there is bu**er all I can do to drive it through:sad:


You are not part of the problem, you are thinking it through.

What it takes is one person

One suggestion - change your signiture ["A Man's gotta know his limitations" Dirty Harry] - in life there are no limitations other than those we set ourselves.

I hope I have not overstepped the decorum thinggy
:blush:

Gus
22nd-December-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Martin
What it takes is one person


Sir ... challenge accepted!

I propose to hold the North West Regional Champs at Northwich Memorial Hall, either on May 1st or July 3rd! All I need now are some judges, publicity, entry forms, co-operation of Blitz Ceroc, Dance North West, SwingRoc, Le Swing and Barnside Jive (miss anyone out?) and we've got an event:grin:

OK ... any volunteers for S Wales/Gloucester, Briminggam, Bristol, N East?

eastmanjohn
23rd-December-2003, 10:27 AM
We've been running The South West LeRoc Challenge for nearly 10 years now. I see no reason why the winners couldn't be the South West representatives in such a competition. Maybe it should be the top 3 couples from each area that go through. You'd get more people from the regions coming to support them in the final!! You need a crowd that represents the regions and not just the local area that happens to be hosting it.

If it works you'd want to host the finals in a different area each year I think.

That's 2 regions covered then. The South West will be on July 2nd. Any more!!!

John Eastman
www.cliftonleroc.co.uk

Martin
23rd-December-2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by eastmanjohn
We've been running The South West LeRoc Challenge for nearly 10 years now. I see no reason why the winners couldn't be the South West representatives in such a competition. Maybe it should be the top 3 couples from each area that go through. You'd get more people from the regions coming to support them in the final!! You need a crowd that represents the regions and not just the local area that happens to be hosting it.

If it works you'd want to host the finals in a different area each year I think.

That's 2 regions covered then. The South West will be on July 2nd. Any more!!!

John Eastman
www.cliftonleroc.co.uk

100% "top 3 couples from each area that go through." was the suggestion, in each catogory.

"If it works you'd want to host the finals in a different area each year I think." - Yes 100%

Gus, how you getting on?
Franck, any ideas?


BTW I did come down to Bristol for a comp many years ago and danced with Kylie, we came 2nd or 3rd at that time I believe, memory fades, not too sure...:sick: (got it of video though)
Christine Keeble was Judging and Mikey danced with a Local gal.

Was that yours?

eastmanjohn
23rd-December-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Martin
100% "top 3 couples from each area that go through." was the suggestion, in each catogory.

"If it works you'd want to host the finals in a different area each year I think." - Yes 100%

Gus, how you getting on?
Franck, any ideas?


BTW I did come down to Bristol for a comp many years ago and danced with Kylie, we came 2nd or 3rd at that time I believe, memory fades, not too sure...:sick: (got it of video though)
Christine Keeble was Judging and Mikey danced with a Local gal.

Was that yours?

Yep, that's the one. Still going strong and still one that people want to win. We only have one category and don't allow teachers to enter (just because it puts other people off from entering, not because we think teachers are always the best dancers!!).

The way we run it is to have heats early on in the evening. The top 5 couple go through to the final. Then we have a dance off for the remaining couples to give them a second chance. The winners of that also go to the final and can still win the whole thing (I think it happened once, just to show that the judges were judging on performance in each heat).

Then we have the final with only 2 couples dancing at any one time. Judges then have a chance to look at each couple for a decent length of time and make a proper assesment of their performance. All six couples come back for a final dance together.

Judging only on 2 criteria. What they did and how they did it. So content and style . We permit aerials but do not mark people up for doing them, only mark them down if they do them and it ruins the flow of the dance!!

It seems to work well.

Martin
23rd-December-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by eastmanjohn
Yep, that's the one. Still going strong and still one that people want to win. We only have one category and don't allow teachers to enter (just because it puts other people off from entering, not because we think teachers are always the best dancers!!).

The way we run it is to have heats early on in the evening. The top 5 couple go through to the final. Then we have a dance off for the remaining couples to give them a second chance. The winners of that also go to the final and can still win the whole thing (I think it happened once, just to show that the judges were judging on performance in each heat).

Then we have the final with only 2 couples dancing at any one time. Judges then have a chance to look at each couple for a decent length of time and make a proper assesment of their performance. All six couples come back for a final dance together.

Judging only on 2 criteria. What they did and how they did it. So content and style . We permit aerials but do not mark people up for doing them, only mark them down if they do them and it ruins the flow of the dance!!

It seems to work well.

Wow, still got the T-shirt - It has the logo "LeRoc Challenge South West - Finalist".

Would have preferred black (more slimming) still white T-shirt becoming more popular due to the hot weather here...:cheers:

Simon
23rd-December-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by eastmanjohn
We only have one category and don't allow teachers to enter (just because it puts other people off from entering, not because we think teachers are always the best dancers!!).


John, you'll probably have to drop the non-Teacher rule for this year if other regions are allowing them. If you need any help publicising the event any further south-west (Exeter and beyond!) let me know. :cheers:

eastmanjohn
23rd-December-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Simon
John, you'll probably have to drop the non-Teacher rule for this year if other regions are allowing them. If you need any help publicising the event any further south-west (Exeter and beyond!) let me know. :cheers:

Surely we have the Jive Masters for the really serious teachers and professionals.

I think this should be an amateur competition where people from the clubs and classes get to represent their own regions. Surely us teachers have enough opportunity to show off our talents already.

If you want to encourage the grass roots to enter don't make it so that they think they haven't got a chance before they start. It also doesn't help the judges when you have teachers in the competition. The judges usually know the other teachers and there is more chance of them being accused of biase, whether fair or not.

It's already been touched on here, but I've seen it happen before where the winner of a large competition then became the new star teacher for the same organisation that hosted the competition. He probably deserved to win, but it makes people start to ask questions about the judging.

Graham W
29th-December-2003, 04:02 PM
There are some Bristol dancers who are not teachers but who have won intermediate/advanced national medals who may not be elligible to enter the intermediate section (eg-BritRoc,..) - Simon A, Jennie S, Simon B
What of them..? I'd organise an advanced regional heat myself but would be accused of biased if I got thru!! ;-) I applaud your willingness to use the SW Challenge as a regional heat - it would add more excitement to an enjoyable event G

TheTramp
29th-December-2003, 04:13 PM
I don't understand this whole thing about teachers not being allowed to enter.

Some of the best dancers in the country aren't actually teachers. Although, I know that they could be if they wanted to. How do you regulate this?

It seems a fairly arbitrary decision to disallow teachers from competing (although, it seems to be the norm). There are, as you said, a lot of teachers who aren't the best dancers (but who are still good teachers - there are also a lot of teachers who are both lousy dancers and lousy teachers too :devil: ). If a teacher stands no chance at all of winning the competition, while a non-teacher is almost a guarenteed cert, what reason can there be to stop the teacher entering.

What about teachers who no longer teach? Or people who are aiming to be teachers?

Steve

RobC
29th-December-2003, 04:26 PM
Surely all regional heats would have to use the same entry and judging criteria. Would existing event organisers be prepared to change their established and proven methods in favour of a nation-wide standard so that people are not desciminated against because of the area they live in ?

If not, then you can't even consider using an existing event as 'a regional heat'.

And who is going to decide what the national criteria / judging standard should be ? You would need to provide each of the regional judges with guidelines and probably case studies to highlight the differences in how to judge couples.

Hey, why not introduce judges exams, so that we know the people judging us are qualified and will give consistent results......

Andy McGregor
29th-December-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by RobC
Hey, why not introduce judges exams, so that we know the people judging us are qualified and will give consistent results......

Anyone want to be 'Chief Examiner of Judges'?:devil:

Gus
30th-December-2003, 01:55 PM
OK

Here are my suggestions;

Judging

As its 'mainly for fun' I dont think that we should get toooo hooked up on judges. I for one suggest that at least one judge is just a normal 'dancer' ... to give the 'common man' perspective. I'm sure that we can get enough regional instrucrs/dancers to meet the requiremenst. The only thing I would say (statement of the obvious) is that they should be from a range of orgnaisation to reflect the mix of dnacers.

Categories

1. DWAS (what it says on the tin)


2. Intermediate/Improvers - for anyone who does not consoider themsleves Advanced

3. Advanced - open to ANYONE ... including teachers, world champions etc.etc.

Overruling Criteria

ITS ALL FOR FUN. Anyone taking it too seriously should be shown the door:grin:


Right ... We've got the North West and The South West Iincl or excl S Wales and Glos?) Sorted. Who can do the South Coast, North East and the Midlands? Once we have the volunteers I volunteer Andy McG to cordinate agreement of rules ... OK?

RoyBoy
30th-December-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Gus

Right ... We've got the North West and The South West Iincl or excl S Wales and Glos?) Sorted. Who can do the South Coast, North East and the Midlands? Once we have the volunteers I volunteer Andy McG to cordinate agreement of rules ... OK?

Is there space for the bit at the top. Errrrrmmmmmm..... whats it called again mmmmmmmmmmmm. Och jees if I had only listened tae that teacher at school.... Ahhh Scotland.:innocent:

Gus
30th-December-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by RoyBoy
Is there space for the bit at the top. Errrrrmmmmmm..... whats it called again mmmmmmmmmmmm. Och jees if I had only listened tae that teacher at school.... Ahhh Scotland.:innocent:

OY! Thought we'd naturalised you by now.:devil: :devil:

I was taking it as read that Sheena and associates would 'ensure' that Franck saw the error of his delay and 'volunteer' him to set something up:wink:

RoyBoy
30th-December-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Gus
I was taking it as read that Sheena and associates would 'ensure' that Franck saw the error of his delay and 'volunteer' him to set something up:wink:

On reflection, I suppose thats a perfectly fair assumption. I've no doubt the 'Crew' have already presented Frank with the ultimatum.;)

Dotse
2nd-January-2004, 09:36 AM
"Having attended many "National" competitions across Australia and coming across the same faces at Sydney, Brisbane, Canberra and Melbourne, yes even the UK.

My thoughts turn to the concept of regional heats.

I would love to see regional heats where the top 3 from each division go through to the Nationals (which are held in a different City each year).

This would give a boost to far more local dancers being "the local champ" and competing on behalf of thier dance school/region.

So what are your thoughts?

Marty"

Hi Marty,

Regional heats sounds great...Melissa and I would take that on...whereas we would reconsider travelling 800 km to dance in two heats, like we had to do in September !!

Cheers & Happy New Year

Dotse:cheers: