Is Argentine Tango made too hard?

[David Bailey]

Is the typical "barrier to getting dancing socially" in AT set at too high a level?

[jivecat]

Is the typical "barrier to getting dancing socially" in AT set at too high a level?

Not sure if I totally understand this sentence but I don't think the barrier needs to be set high. I think leaders should be endlessly reassured that most followers enjoy pleasant, musical walking, which most beginners can manage without too much experience. Many leaders set the barrier high for themselves by fretting about their inability to do showy moves. Some of them will never manage those moves but simple walking, the basis of the dance, should be within their grasp.

Also, there's a lot of cr*p talked about the mystique of dancing tango which tends to frighten people into thinking the barrier is high.

But what do I know, I think tango is far easier than WCS.

[Maxine]

Is the typical "barrier to getting dancing socially" in AT set at too high a level?

I think the first time at any new social dance can be quite unnerving, but most of us here have been doing modern jive for quite some time and have probably forgotten how we felt when we first started. How the class seems quite easy to follow but then suddenly when you have to dance it – not so easy and then nerves can take over.

For me this has been the same experience with Tango but then throw in posture, disassociation and the whole intimidating feel of the tango freestyle, with its more rigid etiquette, is for me what makes it less inviting. Although I am enjoying learning

[David Bailey]

Not sure if I totally understand this sentence but I don't think the barrier needs to be set high.
I guess it's just that, when I started, it took a loooong time (years) before I felt fully comfortable going social dancing. In hindsight, I should have done much more social dancing, much earlier - I spent too much time on classes, and not enough time on either practice or dancing.

Now, when I teach, my focus is the inverse - I want to get people dancing as soon as humanly possible, even if it's simply walking around the room to the beat.

But most of the AT teachers I know still seem to be focussing on moves / routines, or on technique. Both of which are fine, of course, but there's not much emphasis on how to use such tools within social dancing.

For example, I've been attending Clive and Christine's AT classes at iJig over the past few weeks, and their beginner classes are great - embrace, walking, musicality, and that's all.

But many other classes - many other teachers - seem to almost put barriers between the class and the dance.

So I guess, like Andy with WCS, I'm saying that AT could benefit from the MJ "get them dancing immediately approach".

[philsmove]

Let’s face it, learning Argentina Tango is difficult, it’s nothing like MJ, it cannot be dumbed down or made easy
That said most AT classes I have attended work in the same way as Ceroc
No need for a partner, no need to book, just drop into a class when you feel like it
There is so much to learn in AT that I not sure if this approach really works
Dancing or just walking round the room is fine, but it is not going to prepare you for a crowed Milonga
I feel AT should taught as a course, ensuring by the time you get to your first Milonga you coved all the elements, including etiquette, navigation, isolation, posture, the frame, the music ect

[Dottie]

I have been a beginner three times in the last three and a half years. Initially with MJ, two years ago with WCS and now I have done three AT classes.

When I started MJ I was far too intimidated to attend a freestyle for a very long time. With WCS I sort of decided to jump in at the deep end (after about three months of excellent weekly classes ) when I attended a WCS/line dance weekend. It was my actual first experience of a WCS freestyle and that weekend did so much more to progress my WCS than simply attending lessons could ever do however good the teaching was.

Despite having only done three AT classes the teachers were very clear about us beginners being welcome at the tea dances and Milongas, encouraging us to attend in a group so we can practice together. I think this is a great ethos. To be honest I do not feel at all ready for this yet but when I feel my basics are at a level where I can actually walk to a standard I feel necessary to take part then my shoes will be hitting that dance floor. My walking when in a practise hold seems to be OK but as soon as I get in close hold it all falls apart.

Whatever the dance and wherever the freestyle/social dancing, I personally would feel uncomfortable attending unless I felt secure in the fact that I felt my basics were up to it.

[David Bailey]

Let’s face it, learning Argentina Tango is difficult, it’s nothing like MJ, it cannot be dumbed down or made easy
Actually, I don't think MJ can be made easy - all that Ceroc does is flatten the learning curve to get people dancing quickly. What Ceroc doesn't do, is to acknowledge that there's still a learning curve after 6 lessons.

Whereas my question is whether AT teaching practice places too much emphasis on getting everything right initially, thus making it harder to get started.

Let's face it, to get started walking in close embrace, you don't need much beyond posture / intention, and the concept of leading / following from the centre.

(To be clear, I'm absolutely not saying that this is "good dancing" - I'm just saying this is dancing. There are many years of work needed to get it "good dancinig", for most of us)


That said most AT classes I have attended work in the same way as Ceroc
No need for a partner, no need to book, just drop into a class when you feel like it
There is so much to learn in AT that I not sure if this approach really works
The "course-vs-dropin" is a slightly different issue I think - but I agree, I much prefer a course-based approach. On the other hand, lots of people simply can't commit to doing a course, they have lives and stuff :)


Dancing or just walking round the room is fine, but it is not going to prepare you for a crowed Milonga
Actually, if you crowd people in a small space, it does help. And let's face facts, nothing is going to prepare you for upstairs at Negracha's ;)


I feel AT should taught as a course, ensuring by the time you get to your first Milonga you coved all the elements, including etiquette, navigation, isolation, posture, the frame, the music ect
Sounds about right to me... (http://www.learningtango.com/TangoExtensions.html):whistle:

[philsmove]

Let's face it, to get started walking in close embrace, you don't need much beyond posture / intention, and the concept of leading / following from the centre.


:yeah:

Yup thats about it: Walk in a close embrace, with the correct posture and intention, and lead / follow from the centre. and you are ready for your first Milongo

I take it all back, AT is dead easy :flower:

[David Bailey]

:yeah:

Yup thats about it: Walk in a close embrace, with the correct posture and intention, and lead / follow from the centre. and you are ready for your first Milongo

I take it all back, AT is dead easy :flower:

:na:

I'm reminded of what Ros from La Mariposa told me and CeeCee a few years back, when we said something along the lines of "Wow, this is difficult isn't it?"
Her reply was "My dears, you have no idea...". :D

But... that said, I wonder if the learning curve slope could be made shallower? That's the approach I've been moving towards in the past year in my classes - and, it turns out, that's also a similar approach to what teachers like Andreas Wichter are doing.

It's a "learn a bit - dance a bit - learn a bit more - dance a bit more - etc." strategy, rather than a "learn everything - brain explodes - try to get it all right - then start dancing and realise it's even more complicated" strategy.

[philsmove]

Another quote along the same lines


I though the scale went 1 to 10
I thought I was at level 4
I have discovered, I am at level 6,
But the scale goes 1 to 100

[ant]

Dancing or just walking round the room is fine, but it is not going to prepare you for a crowed Milonga


Is that not one of the reasons there is the concept of Practica?

[ant]

:na:
It's a "learn a bit - dance a bit - learn a bit more - dance a bit more - etc." strategy, rather than a "learn everything - brain explodes - try to get it all right - then start dancing and realise it's even more complicated" strategy.
I am sure that the main reason this approach works is because you have to get the technique into your muscle memory at each stage and there is no point moving on until that is achieved.

[philsmove]

Is that not one of the reasons there is the concept of Practica?

Yes, I suspect a well run course interspersed with Practicas, (that don’t get taken over by the intimidates), Is the answer to smoothing the learning curve

[Trouble]

Is the typical "barrier to getting dancing socially" in AT set at too high a level?

YES. Ive done private lesson with you and boot camp with Warren.

Danny and me still cant even do a basic step. Why, i dont know. Its not simple like Jive is to master and it seems so much more difficult unless of course you become totally into it and go 3 or 4 times a week.

What are we missing, i dont know. Am i stupid, no. Can i pick up steps, yes.

But im still crap and Danny now hates it and i cant get him into doing it again. DOH.. whats the answer and where to go.???

[philsmove]

.. whats the answer and where to go.???

I think you have answere you own question


.. become totally into it and go 3 or 4 times a week.

well at least twice a week

[David Bailey]

YES. Ive done private lesson with you and boot camp with Warren.

Danny and me still cant even do a basic step. Why, i dont know.
If you're really interested, then give me 10 minutes and I'll get you two walking.

But, to be brutally honest, I suspect you're not really interested.

[Trouble]

If you're really interested, then give me 10 minutes and I'll get you two walking.

But, to be brutally honest, I suspect you're not really interested.

I am, i really like it, did some nice stuff with Amr at the bootcamp, i followed ok, but Danny really put off it.... and unless i find a class near us thats not breaking the bank, i wont be able to pursuade him. Classes are also a problem, where do these tango classes happen cause im buggered if i can find any .1!! DOH

[David Bailey]

I am, i really like it, did some nice stuff with Amr at the bootcamp, i followed ok, but Danny really put off it.... and unless i find a class near us thats not breaking the bank, i wont be able to pursuade him. Classes are also a problem, where do these tango classes happen cause im buggered if i can find any .1!! DOH
Anthony Howell at The Room (http://www.the-room.org.uk/Programme.html)does Tuesday classes - that's in Tottenham, so not too far from where you are, up in pleb-land :na:

Otherwise there are loads of classes each week (40+) listed on my site.

Excuses excuses...

[Brighton Belle]

:na:


It's a "learn a bit - dance a bit - learn a bit more - dance a bit more - etc." strategy, rather than a "learn everything - brain explodes - try to get it all right - then start dancing and realise it's even more complicated" strategy.

There's a teaching approach called Spiral Learning which is similar to this and it's used in the Boot Camps and in Warren's Monday classes in Hove. I have always used it teaching many other subjects and I've always found it very successful.

It involves 'touching all the bases' briefly and practicing them, albeit at this stage at a superficial level. Then you repeat them all again, at a more detailed level. Practice again. Then repeat them again with still more detail, adding maybe maybe one more basic element etc. So after a couple of lessons, the students can at least do a few things, even if it's not perfect.

Then when they repeat it the next week, the teachers can make corrections before students get into any 'bad habits'. The students feel they're making progress and can dance socially fairly quickly. For many dancers, this is enough. They go to local milongas, have fun and have a social night out. They don't want to be Vincent and Flavia or spend endless hours practicing small movements. For dancers who show more aptitude and want to dance to a higher standard, the teachers can add more elements to any moves/steps for individual students.

Social dancing is encouraged right from the beginning and every class is followed by a 90 min milonga. I think its along the same lines as David is suggesting and as a concept seems to be working very well. All the basics including things like navigation, musicallity etc are covered and re-covered constantly as an integral part of each lesson. The class only started in October and many of the students are already attending Negracha's, Carablanca etc and local milongas.

AT isn't 'easy' by any means and nothing is going to make it so but it can still be fun, sociable, and with the right encouragement and environment, I think most people with at least a modicum of ability should be able to enjoy it. :nice:

[David Bailey]

There's a teaching approach called Spiral Learning which is similar to this and it's used in the Boot Camps and in Warren's Monday classes in Hove. I have always used it teaching many other subjects and I've always found it very successful.

It involves 'touching all the bases' briefly and practicing them, albeit at this stage at a superficial level. Then you repeat them all again, at a more detailed level. Practice again. Then repeat them again with still more detail, adding maybe maybe one more basic element etc. So after a couple of lessons, the students can at least do a few things, even if it's not perfect.

Cor, "Spiral Learning", I like that term. I've been thinking of it as iterative learning, but your terminology is cooler :D


AT isn't 'easy' by any means and nothing is going to make it so but it can still be fun, sociable, and with the right encouragement and environment, I think most people with at least a modicum of ability should be able to enjoy it. :nice:
In three weeks (a grand total of 90 minutes' tuition) at Finchley, we've managed to get a group of people dancing around the room, voluntarily after the class finished. I honestly think most people are quite open to the idea of having to work a little harder at dancing, as long as they're encouraged and supported.

A lot of people have a hunger to learn to dance; that's not to say they'll spend hours each week in front of a mirror sorting out their dissociation, but I do think they're more open to "work" than a lot of Ceroc people give them credit for.

[ElaineB]

YES. Ive done private lesson with you and boot camp with Warren.

Danny and me still cant even do a basic step. Why, i dont know. Its not simple like Jive is to master and it seems so much more difficult unless of course you become totally into it and go 3 or 4 times a week.

What are we missing, i dont know. Am i stupid, no. Can i pick up steps, yes.

But im still crap and Danny now hates it and i cant get him into doing it again. DOH.. whats the answer and where to go.???

Aw, poor you Trouble (and poor Danny of course!). In my experience, most leaders who has done Jive or Salsa find AT a bit more difficult, in that they naturally want to lead with the arms. The leaders are then trying to learn a new dance and undo what their natural instincts tell them to do. Also because Jive tends to be easier to get a 'basic command' of quite a number of moves very quickly, the leaders feel that because they can't do the same in AT, they must be rubbish!

It does take a while to learn, but it really is worth it - hopefully you can reassure Danny that he has hit the same problem that a lot of leaders face and it isn't him. Good luck! :flower:



Elaine

[Graham W]

Good thread!

To answer the question - it depends on the social dance you attend, I think - some are too crowded for the less experienced dancer unless you are taught floorcraft, & some are pleasantly chilled too, I love the milongas on the Ceroc weekenders as they are brilliantly chilled , thu I am too tired to do tango justice on them, most of the time,:-)

yes , like WCS, there is a lot of b**sht thu not so much since I've moved:

I gave up on AT before but started again in Cardiff & the teachers from both camps have been brilliant for me & I feel I've cracked it, both classes here have the philosophy to have a go social dancing as soon as u like!

G

[NickC]

AT tango is not made too hard, it just is hard, it has a pain barrier that is about 4 times longer than MJ so if it takes 5 weeks to enjoy MJ, Tango is about 20 weeks, you have to "take the pain" and persevere
Nick

[Andy Razzle]

personally i like the challenge, even if it can be frustrating at times.

[Lynn]

Depends on the teaching style as well. I know someone who gave up learning AT because after having done Ceroc and Lindy, found the teaching style of 'teacher shows move counting - class then copies - repeat, pair up and practice' just too unstructured. There was no 'this is what we are going to learn today' or 'this is what we did last week so here is how we are building on that' etc. He felt frustrated not because he felt he wasn't making progress, but because he felt he no clear idea how he was meant to be progressing.

[David Bailey]

Depends on the teaching style as well. I know someone who gave up learning AT because after having done Ceroc and Lindy, found the teaching style of 'teacher shows move counting - class then copies - repeat, pair up and practice' just too unstructured.
Yes, I occasionally did the "split up and practice" thing, but I now think it's almost always pointless - it's just teaching a sequence in isolation, it's much better to try it out in partners right from the start.

At the moment, the only exception to that rule is when first learning the giro - I think it's useful initially to split up the class to show that. Possibly also the cross.

But hell, tango teachers shouldn't be teaching sequences anyway.

[Andy Razzle]

personally I think separate practice is valueable for mastering technique and also to ensure that you keep your own axis. A sequence will at least give you a goal to aim for, although there are a few world class instructors who dont tech routines - one said it makes you look robotic. Suppose it also means the girls end up leading themselves if they know what you are going to do next.

[David Bailey]

personally I think separate practice is valueable for mastering technique
In some cases, yes.

For example, getting followers to practice being able to do ochos by themselves - powering their own pivots, holding their own axis and so on (actually, it's a good exercise for leaders also). I've been doing that for a couple of weeks at Berko, doing very slooooow ochos for the class to follow. Heh.

But teaching a specific sequence of steps as part of a routine, individually? No, I don't think that's a good idea, because it teaches a sequence, divorced from the lead-and-follow process.


Suppose it also means the girls end up leading themselves if they know what you are going to do next.
Eggsactly :) - Even with the giro example I mentioned, I find that followers often "auto-giro" without paying attention to the lead.

[Dreadful Scathe]

what ? no jokes in here about the new "German Tango" much more efficient and impressive to watch :)

[frodo]

- powering their own pivots, holding their own axis and so on (actually, it's a good exercise for leaders also).

Would the benefit for leaders be knowing what is involved for the follower.

[Lynn]

But hell, tango teachers shouldn't be teaching sequences anyway.I think the ones who teach sequences like that do so because they have very limited English and find it easiest to 'show' rather than explain. Then they get people to pair up and go round, observing and correcting individuals by looking at what they are doing and showing how it should be done.

[David Bailey]

Would the benefit for leaders be knowing what is involved for the follower.
Yep, to a point - but it's easier to simply swap lead / follow roles around once or twice in a class to achieve that.

Plus, it's always fun to watch leaders struggle with following :D

[David Bailey]

I think the ones who teach sequences like that do so because they have very limited English and find it easiest to 'show' rather than explain. Then they get people to pair up and go round, observing and correcting individuals by looking at what they are doing and showing how it should be done.

Could be.

It could also be because a lot of the Tango teachers are first-and-foremost show dancers, who think in terms of choreography and routines.

Or, it could be because they're just not very good teachers.

[under par]

But teaching a specific sequence of steps as part of a routine, individually? No, I don't think that's a good idea, because it teaches a sequence, divorced from the lead-and-follow process.

.

this has the other negative point that followers pre-empt what they think is being lead in the sequence...back leading.

I have found that interupting the sequence being taught with an ocho or 2 or some other unrelated move every now and again keeps said followers on their toes, makes them stop back leading and encourages following.

[Brighton Belle]

this has the other negative point that followers pre-empt what they think is being lead in the sequence...back leading.

I have found that interupting the sequence being taught with an ocho or 2 or some other unrelated move every now and again keeps said followers on their toes, makes them stop back leading and encourages following.

:yeah:

When I 'm leading in a beginners class I never lead the moves in the same order they've been taught, or else I put in an extra few walks or something as UP says. If the follower is just going through the motions of a set pattern, it's of no use to either lead or follow because neither of them would know how to do it in freestyle. Followers pre-empt constantly at first and it's a habit they've got to get out of pronto. I know it was a very bad habit of mine for a long time. :naughty:

Putting in extra moves is good if the leader has 'got it' and knows what they are doing but for beginners struggling to remember any moves at all, it's a tall order. I would suggest teaching say 2 or 3 moves but not in any particular order, then when the class practice them, tell the leaders to mix them up which will be much better test that both the lead and follow are clear what they're doing.