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cederic
24th-May-2010, 06:48 PM
Does sabotage happen a reasonable amount, and I just haven't seen it, or is this rare?

I think it's fun, and done well fits seamlessly into the dance, so I'm curious whether it's just not something most followers try, or whether they're all waiting for me to get good enough to cope with it before they start interrupting my beautifully crafted* routines.




* the beauty may all be internal

David Bailey
24th-May-2010, 08:17 PM
Does sabotage happen a reasonable amount
Not to me :grin:

jivecat
24th-May-2010, 08:34 PM
Does sabotage happen a reasonable amount, and I just haven't seen it, or is this rare?

I think it's fun, and done well fits seamlessly into the dance, so I'm curious whether it's just not something most followers try, or whether they're all waiting for me to get good enough to cope with it before they start interrupting my beautifully crafted* routines.



This'll give rise to a discussion of the difference between sabotage (taking over the lead) and playing (improvisation without interfering with the lead.)

I don't do sabotage as such, as I generally feel it is impolite to interfere with someone's artistic creation, as you point out. However, if the dance is low on musicality, and the music is really great, i will sometimes force a response to it, for example, by doing something to observe a break when the leader hasn't even noticed it, or completing a turn in my own timing rather than his. This is really pretty naughty, because it's an interference with the lead, rather than an embellishment of it, but sometimes I just have to do it for my own entertainment - and sanity. I don't think I'm even very good at it, which makes it even worse. I'm more likely to do it with relatively inexperienced leads cos that's when it's needed. The good news is that the lead has to be fairly consistent or nothing like that is possible. If the lead is a bit random or off-beat then there's nothing to be done except grin and bear it.

Conversely, if everything is going really well, the music is fab, I'm in the zone and in the safe hands of a comfortable, secure leader, then I can sometimes play with the spaces in between leads. But sabotage them - now that would be silly under the circumstances, wouldn't it?

Lost Leader
24th-May-2010, 09:10 PM
Bit of a controversial topic this Cedric - and one that has been discussed before on here (someone less tired than me might post a link to the previous discussion).

Briefly, Sabotage is generally understood to be when the follower intervenes to change one move (initiated by the lead) into another that the follower choses to execute by sabotaging the move that the leader is attempting to lead at some point part way through the move. Looked at positively it can introduce an extra element of fun and surprise into a dance, looked at negatively it can, especially if overdone, disrupt the dance in a bad way by interrupting the flow and interfering too much the the lead. Some people like it, others hate it. It is in that sense a bit like Marmite. Personally I quite like it provided it is well executed, done in the right context and used only as an occasional surprise element in the dance.

Hijacking is slightly different, this is where the follower actually takes over leading the dance for a short while.

Lost Leader
24th-May-2010, 09:20 PM
However, if the dance is low on musicality, and the music is really great, I will sometimes force a response to it, for example, by doing something to observe a break when the leader hasn't even noticed it, or completing a turn in my own timing rather than his. This is really pretty naughty, because it's an interference with the lead, rather than an embellishment of it, but sometimes I just have to do it for my own entertainment - and sanity.

Personally I don't regard this sort of thing as sabotage or "being naughty". Partner dancing, as the name suggests is about dance partnerships and a good lead should allow followers space and time to add their own embellishments if they want to. It is all a question of balance and adjusting to the style and capabilities of your partner. The point is that to give your partner an opportunity to complete (say) a slow, stylish turn is good leading provided you aren't doing it all the time or making it obvious that you were expecting the follower to do something and looking disappointed if they don't.

frodo
24th-May-2010, 10:36 PM
so I'm curious whether it's just not something most followers try
I think there are two categories of follower who will sabotage a reasonable amount.

A) A small proportion of ladies frequently danced with and who know it is safe.
B) A few very advanced and physically very fit strangers.

Otherwise I think it is extremely unusual ( unless the follower has just completed a sabotage class)


Not to me :grin:
On the other hand there is a question as to whether sabotage is always obvious.

jivecat
24th-May-2010, 11:07 PM
Personally I don't regard this sort of thing as sabotage or "being naughty". Partner dancing, as the name suggests is about dance partnerships and a good lead should allow followers space and time to add their own embellishments if they want to. Yes indeedy! However, I wasn't referring to "good leads".


making it obvious that you were expecting the follower to do something and looking disappointed if they don't.Been there, had that. Like when the leader suddenly stops leading at a random, featureless bit of the music and says "Your turn now, this is an equal opportunities dance", or some such.

Cedric wanted to know how widespread sabotage was -wasn't there a poll once suggesting it was very popular with forum followers at the time? Do we need a new poll?

rtwwpad
24th-May-2010, 11:35 PM
Usually not that popular if you're having a nice dance, why potentially upset the person you are dancing with. Tends to happen with friends or people who know you. Of course sometimes it escalates into all out war between the parties and that can be fun to watch/do.

War being defined as both parties sabotaging each other or even gifting leads so they can lead their own sabotages on their by now incredibly suspicious and suspecting female partner. Ah, happy days.

Note, ladies tend not to think its so much fun when they realise you have hijacks for their hijacks :)

David Bailey
25th-May-2010, 10:12 AM
On the other hand there is a question as to whether sabotage is always obvious.
If it's not obvious, it's not sabotage.

Prian
25th-May-2010, 01:57 PM
I have been to sabotage workshops at Bognor weekends. They also taught the leads counter to the sabotage. I can't remember the name. Is it repechage that I'm thinking of?