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ChrisA
14th-December-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The bit that worries me most is, watching dancers at most classes, I'm the odd one out.
Which brings me to wonder, how do so many ladies learn to anticipate and even lead, so forcefully?

Last night at Twyford, a lady joined me in the class, about five minutes after the start. Despite having only watched from the side (maybe not even that), she seemed to think that she could lead it better than I could, and tried very hard (to do something other than the move being taught, naturally).

How do they get like this? Surely most of them don't like it - I can only imagine that it is learned behaviour. Is it encouraged by too much dancing with blokes that can't lead? If so, how do they cope with the frustration? Why do they still enjoy partner dancing at all?

Chris

LilyB
15th-December-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
. . . How do they get like this? Surely most of them don't like it - I can only imagine that it is learned behaviour. . . Yes, it is.

Is it encouraged by too much dancing with blokes that can't lead? Yes again.

If so, how do they cope with the frustration? We get used to it.

Why do they still enjoy partner dancing at all? Because we live in hope! :wink:

On a more serious note, I personally find that I am very often forced to anticipate moves and/or lead myself because my partner has failed to lead the move that he intended clearly enough, and his actual lead is either non-existent, or too weak, or equivocal (could be any one of a number of moves), or has come too late for me to follow properly/safely. This is a problem not confined to beginners only - it is equally apparent in some very experienced men. Fortunately, with the more experienced guys, it tends to be an occasional glitch rather than a continuous theme running throughout their dancing.

In the above situation, the only alternative for the lady (other than anticipating/leading ourselves) is to stop dancing altogether and stare at your partner, wondering what he wants us to do next. :confused: :blush: Surely that is not to be preferred. Remember, guys, most women do not have ESP and cannot read your minds (there are always exceptions :what: ). If they appear to be anticipating or leading themselves, it could well be because, as ChrisA noted above, "it is encouraged by too much dancing with blokes that can't lead".

It is terribly frustrating, yes, but most of us girls realise that good leading skills (just like good following skills) have to be learnt, and nobody is perfect.

In spite of all the problems that are inherent in dancing - and bad leading/following is only one (or is that two?) of them - all of us do it because we enjoy it. Some of us see it as a challenge - to lead/follow your partner's every nuance, to feel & interpret the music, to add your own individual touches to the partnership. Some of us just want a fun bop to a nice tune. I don't know of anyone who goes dancing expecting a "perfect" dance everytime. It is the opportunity of having a good time on the dance floor that I think is the reason why people still enjoy partner dancing.

LilyB

ChrisA
15th-December-2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
and his actual lead is ... come too late for me to follow properly/safely. This is a problem not confined to beginners only - it is equally apparent in some very experienced men.
And dancing with you is all the more of a pleasure because, whether you do it intentionally or not, you always let me know when I've led unclearly, or late. It's subtle feedback, but it's clear, and I find it tremendously helpful.

Chris

Gary
15th-December-2003, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by LilyB

In the above situation, [unclear lead] the only alternative for the lady (other than anticipating/leading ourselves) is to stop dancing altogether and stare at your partner, wondering what he wants us to do next. :confused: :blush: Surely that is not to be preferred.


Well I might be fooling myself, but I think that that's exactly what I'd prefer. Have any of you follows out there tried this? What happened?

Graham
15th-December-2003, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I can only imagine that it is learned behaviour. I think "yes and no". Often women develop this habit due to dancing with poor leads. But I'd also suggest that it is extremely common for complete beginners to do this. Many don't immediately grasp the concept of lead-and-follow, and simply learn the moves and execute them themselves. Of course perhaps this IS a learned behaviour from off the dance-floor (it's ridiculous to think a man would know what he was doing!! :wink: )

ChrisA
15th-December-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by Graham
I think "yes and no". Often women develop this habit due to dancing with poor leads. But I'd also suggest that it is extremely common for complete beginners to do this. Many don't immediately grasp the concept of lead-and-follow, and simply learn the moves and execute them themselves. Of course perhaps this IS a learned behaviour from off the dance-floor (it's ridiculous to think a man would know what he was doing!! :wink: )
I'm not talking about beginners (which does happen a lot, as you say), and I'm not talking about the occasional glitch that arises from a fumbled lead.

I'm talking in this instance about an intermediate dancer trying to wrestle me through a complicated move that she certainly didn't know, and making me **** it up completely by wrestling me in completely the wrong direction. Given that she hadn't even been in the class at the start, I thought it was a bit much.

Very unusually for me, I murmured "no" quite firmly in her ear, and she then stopped fighting - and it all went swimmingly after that.

It was an extreme example, but this sort of thing does happen quite a bit.

Another one is less common, but it's when someone in freestyle has anticipated to such an extent that the move has gone completely awry... and I just stop completely for a few moments to avoid that awful scrabble for hands. It amazes me when I stop, and the lady continues attempting to dance - sometimes for several seconds - before appearing to suddenly notice that I'm no longer doing stuff, and then she looks really surprised. I get the impression that whether I lead or not, she wouldn't notice.

I suppose it could just be me failing to lead nothing.... :blush: :blush:

Chris

JamesGeary
15th-December-2003, 03:18 AM
Nerves, and the associated desire to rush through the move.
Laugh a bit and tell them anything is ok.

or

Need for control, an unwillingness to let someone else take charge.
Give them some rope and follow them for a bit.

or

High ratio of time spent doing classes to time spent doing freestyle (been learning choreography rather than following skills).
Just get them dancing more.

Jon
15th-December-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
Need for control, an unwillingness to let someone else take charge.

Women wear the trousers off the dance floor. We cant let her wear them on the floor as well can we or we won't ever get to be in control :wink:

Forte
15th-December-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Very unusually for me, I murmured "no" quite firmly in her ear, and she then stopped fighting - and it all went swimmingly after that.


Chris

Oooh ChrisA...that quote made me come over all Mills and Boon swoon!!! You macho man, you! :drool:

ChrisA
15th-December-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Forte
Oooh ChrisA...that quote made me come over all Mills and Boon swoon!!! You macho man, you! :drool: I was expecting to have to duck :D :D :D

Chris

spindr
15th-December-2003, 02:17 PM
The awful truth is that the leaders also come to rely on the followers anticipating.
I've a tendency to leak in the occasional lindy hop, or salsa move -- or lead the follower with their left hand, etc. -- and if I notice that my partner's attention is wandering / they are anticipating , I will throw in something other than current-modern-jive moves.

A friend of mine commented that she found it "challenging" to dance with me, because she had to keep concentrating.
To which the only possible reply at the time was: "Oh, so you end up sleeping, with all your other partners?"

SpinDr

P.S. She said "yes" and then realised...

ChrisA
15th-December-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by spindr
The awful truth is that the leaders also come to rely on the followers anticipating.
Wrong !! :rofl:

Jon L
15th-December-2003, 05:45 PM
I think I asked this question some time ago on ceroc London forum?

When dancing with someone I have never met. I will usually do two or three beginner moves but with maybe an extra in i.e. extra turn or travelling return to see how they react.

The problem stems from women who have been dancing say six months to a year and are Not naturals. They have seen variants of moves and think I'll steer the man in. Quite a lot of the time it is because they have danced with men who don't lead with clarity usually other beginner men. When in fact they need to dance with more experienced dancers or taxis.

The taxi's here play a key role here and should directly inform the woman not to do this under any circumstances while still being encouraging.

DangerousCurves
16th-December-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Gary
Well I might be fooling myself, but I think that that's exactly what I'd prefer. Have any of you follows out there tried this? What happened?

I've had to stop a couple of times when things have gone beyond all reasonable hope of salvage.

I have had three responses:

i) It just gives me and the chap something to giggle about,

ii) the chap gets quite/very embarassed. This is most common when he doesn't know me personally, or if he's very serious about his dancing. That's why I try to keep going if I can...; and

iii) a minor tantrum! This was just the once, and from a very strange guy who most ladies at the venue refused to dance with (so perhaps not very representative, but still, he's out there, somewhere...)

I prefer response i) - and if everything goes humiliatingly pear-shaped I tend to remind my partner that's how new moves get invented!

jivecat
16th-December-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
On a more serious note, I personally find that I am very often forced to anticipate moves and/or lead myself because my partner has failed to lead the move that he intended clearly enough, and his actual lead is either non-existent, or too weak, or equivocal (could be any one of a number of moves), or has come too late for me to follow properly/safely.
LilyB


Having been told off by various partners for anticipating/leading I have tried really hard to train myself out of it. So thanks, Lily, for putting the ladies' side of the argument so succinctly. I am always reluctant to comment on leads that are less than perfect in case I offend someone -has anyone got any ideas on how to tactfully help a partner to make their leads clearer?

It seems to me that the possibility of equivocal leads should be stressed more in beginners classes e.g. some men don't realise that if they hold their hand too high the lady will probably begin to turn under it- a very common error of beginner leaders.

ChrisA
16th-December-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by jivecat
I am always reluctant to comment on leads that are less than perfect in case I offend someone -has anyone got any ideas on how to tactfully help a partner to make their leads clearer?

In my case, the key was realising that the problem lay with me, not with the ladies I was dancing with. I had a kind of "ok" dance once with someone, and came away with the impression that she wasn't a very good dancer.

A few minutes later I saw her dancing with someone else -- and she was awesome.

I realised that the reason the dance was mediocre was my fault, not hers. This was a bit of a Damascus Road experience for me, and led to my assuming from then on that if a dance went wrong, the fault was in my lead rather than the lady's follow.

A couple of workshops, but mostly a great deal of observation, and experimentation later, and I'm starting to feel hopeful that my leading is at long last starting to improve.

So, how to help? I would certainly like to be told about anything in my dancing that could be improved. I hate the idea that the lady might smile and say thank you at the end of the dance, while underneath thinking I was rubbish. The 64,000 dollar question is, of course, how many of the guys are equally happy to receive feedback?

Chris

Amir
16th-December-2003, 02:14 PM
Have advocated this often, and here would be a good place to repeat: Guys, take an oppertunity some time soon to learn to follow, and do it when ever you can.!

It is the most dis-orientating, dizzying and challenging experience you are likely to have! Especially at dark venues with moving lights!

It is also very difficult not to anticipate moves - almost any other movement throughout our conscious waking lives we direct ourselves. Following is neither natural or easy. I would say that taking over the lead is rather more natural than waiting to by lead.

Try to read the following sentence and do not finish it even in your head

"The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy..."

You probably immediately completed the sentence in your head and thought 'dog.' It could have been cat, stone or anything, but if you think you recognize something, you automatically complete it. It takes a lot of training and concentration not to.

In movement it is harder, because you have to commit your weight in a certain direction, and if you think you know where you're going, you're likely to find the quickest path there.


My hat off to all followers.

ChrisA
16th-December-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by amir_giles
Have advocated this often, and here would be a good place to repeat: Guys, take an oppertunity some time soon to learn to follow, and do it when ever you can.!

It is the most dis-orientating, dizzying and challenging experience you are likely to have! Especially at dark venues with moving lights!
Any suggestions for the best way of going about this? When taxiing if I get my opposite number in the beginners class we always swap roles and cause no little local amusement by both being crap, but I'm not sure many of the guys would be that glad to get me in the class. :what:

How did the Trampster start off learning to be a follower, for instance?

Chris

PS Amir, is this the thin end of the wedge? :wink: :wink:

Pammy
16th-December-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
How did the Trampster start off learning to be a follower, for instance?

I don't know, but I volunteer to try and lead you next time :hug:

Px

ChrisA
16th-December-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
I don't know, but I volunteer to try and lead you next time
Thanks Pamster, I'm up for it :hug:

Dave Hancock
16th-December-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
I don't know, but I volunteer to try and lead you next time :hug:
Px

No offence Pammy, but I think Chris would learn far more about the lead and follow aspect if he danced the female part with a man leading. I appreciate that in other dances especially many of the tango classes in the UK that it is often a preferred teaching method to both learn to lead and to follow, but in MJ there is not normally such a crossover as both sexes tend to dance their traditional role for the majority of the time.

I would however partly qualify this by saying that I have been lead by some very good women especially Sheena and Lorna up here.

ChrisA
16th-December-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
No offence Pammy, but I think Chris would learn far more about the lead and follow aspect if he danced the female part with a man leading.
I was afraid of that. :tears:

Still, let's still give it a go, eh, Pamster?

Mary
16th-December-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
I don't know, but I volunteer to try and lead you next time :hug:

Px

I'd be up for it as well - but only if you demonstrate how you murmer 'no' in such a macho fashion:devil: :devil:

Pammy's a good lead and also The Tazmanian Devil if you ever get the chance.

M

Lory
16th-December-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
In my case, the key was realising that the problem lay with me, not with the ladies I was dancing with. I had a kind of "ok" dance once with someone, and came away with the impression that she wasn't a very good dancer.
A few minutes later I saw her dancing with someone else -- and she was awesome.

Chris
Chris, I don't think you are being fair on yourself, I've realised that some partners are just more compatable than others. We've all had it when we've seen a fantastic dancer, then danced with them and thought :sick: Hmmm That didn't feel that good to me:sad: I must be really bad because I can't follow them that well. and Visa Versa.


Luckily, I have a friend I go with regularly and we spend ages on the way home, discussing who we danced with and who we liked best and why and we often choose different people. And the simple reason we like one more than another is because of the way they make us feel about the way we dance.

She likes a strong lead and to know she's done each move correctly, this gives her a sence of achievement, and she feels good about herself.

I like fun and i'm not too hung up on 'getting it right' all the time (which I KNOW drives some men MAD)(on the same token, it drives me nuts when a man takes it too seriously too)

So the lesson is, you can't win all the time:hug:

TheTramp
16th-December-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
How did the Trampster start off learning to be a follower, for instance? I got Lydia to lead me a few times, and it just kinda carried on from there. Now I'll take anyone who's prepared to lead!!

Steve

ChrisA
16th-December-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Mary
I'd be up for it as well - but only if you demonstrate how you murmer 'no' in such a macho fashion:devil: :devil:

I promise you it was firm, but not macho...

Anyway would I ever say "no" to you, Mster??? :devil:

Pammy
16th-December-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I was afraid of that. :tears:

Still, let's still give it a go, eh, Pamster?

If you're up for it, who am I to say no!

Pamster
x

ChrisA
16th-December-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Lory
Chris, I don't think you are being fair on yourself, I've realised that some partners are just more compatable than others.
I'm sure this is true. But the lesson I needed to learn at that time was very real.

And I am quite certain that there are loads of guys out there that need to learn the same lesson.


it drives me nuts when a man takes it too seriously too)I'm amazed you can stand to dance with me then :D :D :D

But it can be serious as well as fun - and at the same time.

Chris, multi-tasker, and a bloke :waycool:

Divissima
16th-December-2003, 04:43 PM
Chris, if you want to dance as follower, TwK would probably give you a go (he danced with Amir at Twyford on Saturday) - maybe at the tea dance on Sunday in the febrile atmosphere of Kent House... anything could happen :wink:

ChrisA
16th-December-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
Chris, if you want to dance as follower, TwK would probably give you a go (he danced with Amir at Twyford on Saturday) - maybe at the tea dance on Sunday in the febrile atmosphere of Kent House... anything could happen :wink:
I spose if you will keep insisting on dancing with Bex, what choice do I have? :wink:

Probably won't be able to make this Sunday though :tears:

Divissima
16th-December-2003, 04:50 PM
oh no! :tears: when do I get my birthday dance, then?? :really: :tears:

ChrisA
16th-December-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
oh no! :tears: when do I get my birthday dance, then?? :really: :tears:
Guess I'll just have to owe you :wink:

Can I get myself into credit ahead of time?:waycool:

Divissima
16th-December-2003, 04:59 PM
Sounds alright to me :wink:

TheTramp
16th-December-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
oh no! :tears: when do I get my birthday dance, then?? :really: :tears: Probably before I get mine!! :tears:

Steve

Divissima
16th-December-2003, 05:01 PM
ooh - got anything planned for Saturday, Steve?:hug:

TheTramp
16th-December-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
ooh - got anything planned for Saturday, Steve?:hug: Yeah. And it's a lot closer than Twyford!

Would love to come down more often, but I'm a poor student now....

Of course, if you were going to Bognor in January.....!!

Steve

horsey_dude
17th-December-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Which brings me to wonder, how do so many ladies learn to anticipate and even lead, so forcefully?

Last night at Twyford, a lady joined me in the class, about five minutes after the start. Despite having only watched from the side (maybe not even that), she seemed to think that she could lead it better than I could, and tried very hard (to do something other than the move being taught, naturally).

How do they get like this? Surely most of them don't like it - I can only imagine that it is learned behaviour. Is it encouraged by too much dancing with blokes that can't lead? If so, how do they cope with the frustration? Why do they still enjoy partner dancing at all?

Chris

I think it stems from trying to be helpful. Most people start in the beginner class and that means dancing with beginner men who are not going to be confident or sure of themselves. If every women only learned in classes where every male present was a teacher then it would not be common at all. The problem is that once you have learned a bad habit then it is very hard to unlearn....

Lynn
17th-December-2003, 01:01 PM
Speaking as a beginner (who has snuck into the intermediate corner :eek: ) I find that I do sometimes anticipate moves with another beginner who is a weak lead, but not with a stronger lead (at least I hope not). Occasionally (with dancers I know well enough) I know what move they are wanting to do but their lead is suggesting a different move so I follow the lead instead (and usually explain that I was following the lead).

I would agree that having a weekly class but not much freestyle can result in this – dancing the routine rather than lead-follow. We have two types of dancers in the MJ class here, those new to dance – tend to dance the routine, and those who dance salsa – understand lead-follow.

If I get a move wrong I always apologise and say it was my follow and not their lead, but maybe that’s just me assuming it was me who messed up and trying to be polite, and maybe it isn’t always my fault? :blush: :confused: :tears:

So what should I do with those with a weak lead – or those who only dance the routine learnt in class that week and aren’t leading at all? I sometimes try to explain ‘if you do x then that lets me know you want me to move y’ (in a very nice way of course, not telling them off :hug: ). Is that OK?

I find this all very interesting, as my whole aim in learning dance has shifted in the past few weeks – from learning moves to learning to dance. Yes, basic stuff I know, and probably most people figure out that distinction in the first 3 weeks instead of 3 months, but I’ve got there now! :grin:

Forte
17th-December-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Lynn
So what should I do with those with a weak lead – or those who only dance the routine learnt in class that week and aren’t leading at all? I sometimes try to explain ‘if you do x then that lets me know you want me to move y’ (in a very nice way of course, not telling them off :hug: ). Is that OK?

I ! :grin:

You sound like a natural teacher and natural diplomat...:hug: Sounds good to me! :grin:

ChrisA
17th-December-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Lynn
If I get a move wrong I always apologise and say it was my follow and not their lead, but maybe that’s just me assuming it was me who messed up and trying to be polite, and maybe it isn’t always my fault? :blush: :confused: :tears:

It's most unlikely to be your fault. If you're dancing with beginners they haven't had time to learn to lead yet, and if you're dancing with more experienced dancers than yourself they shouldn't be leading you into moves that you can't follow.

To guarantee that it's always the guy's fault, just dance what he leads and nothing else. This will also give him feedback.

A wonderful taxi dancer said to me once, "I won't do anything if you don't lead me", and then proceeded to just stand there until I did.


I find this all very interesting, as my whole aim in learning dance has shifted in the past few weeks – from learning moves to learning to dance. Yes, basic stuff I know, and probably most people figure out that distinction in the first 3 weeks instead of 3 months, but I’ve got there now! :grin:
You're a fast learner. It took me three years to learn the difference.

Chris

plankton
17th-December-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I'm not talking about beginners (which does happen a lot, as you say), and I'm not talking about the occasional glitch that arises from a fumbled lead.

I'm talking in this instance about an intermediate dancer trying to wrestle me through a complicated move that she certainly didn't know, and making me **** it up completely by wrestling me in completely the wrong direction. Given that she hadn't even been in the class at the start, I thought it was a bit much.



happens all the time at clases, its completely fatal in Lindy I usually have to wait for the next 8 beat to get going again :sad:



Very unusually for me, I murmured "no" quite firmly in her ear, and she then stopped fighting - and it all went swimmingly after that.


ah now my version is "this is a partner dance and just for once I get to drive"



It was an extreme example, but this sort of thing does happen quite a bit.

Another one is less common, but it's when someone in freestyle has anticipated to such an extent that the move has gone completely awry... and I just stop completely for a few moments to avoid that awful scrabble for hands. It amazes me when I stop, and the lady continues attempting to dance - sometimes for several seconds - before appearing to suddenly notice that I'm no longer doing stuff, and then she looks really surprised. I get the impression that whether I lead or not, she wouldn't notice.

I suppose it could just be me failing to lead nothing.... :blush: :blush:

Chris

oh but isn't it fun when you step back and watch :devil: I find I get a much more attentive follower afterwards:wink: However for genuine messups it is always the leaders fault regardless:innocent:

At beach boogie (after a long day) I had a very patient partner just stop and say "I have absolutely no idea what you want me to do " ...... well I was confused:sorry

foxylady
17th-December-2003, 02:11 PM
I sometimes get asked by guys to help them in a class as they have not 'got' as particular move. The only way I can help them is by leading myself in the move and have them follow, until they 'get' what they need to do to lead it themselves.... I find it difficult to explain it to them in any other way... they have asked me to help... (a nice firm lead )

I sometimes get guys saying they have only just joined the class and they're not sure what the routine is yet. Does this mean they want help ? Does this mean they want me to follow their lead, and ignore that they are doing it completely wrong ? Does this mean they want me to feel sorry for them ?? I don't know, and whichever response I give its usually the wrong one .....(a rather weak lead )

I sonetimes get guys (as above) who dance the routine, expect you to dance the routine without them leading at all, and if you do nothing because they have lead nothing get extremely cross, but you don't find that out until you have 'followed' them... so then what choice do you have, upset them or dance ??...... (a non existant lead)


a conundrum

ChrisA
17th-December-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
I sometimes get asked by guys to help them in a class as they have not 'got' as particular move. The only way I can help them is by leading myself in the move and have them follow, until they 'get' what they need to do to lead it themselves
IMHO, this is fine. I have often been grateful to ladies for exactly this sort of help. I have to learn the move before I can lead it properly, and it can be hard to get both at the same time.


and if you do nothing because they have lead nothing get extremely cross A good slap is the correct response to such individuals.

Chris

foxylady
17th-December-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA

A good slap is the correct response to such individuals.




Would that I were brave enough to attempt such a response...

Lynn
17th-December-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Forte
You sound like a natural teacher and natural diplomat...:hug: Sounds good to me! :grin: Thank you! :hug:


Originally posted by ChrisA
To guarantee that it's always the guy's fault, just dance what he leads and nothing else. This will also give him feedback. I try to do that - not for it to be his fault, but to show him that I'm following his lead and that's what his lead was - hopefully this does serve as feedback.


Originally posted by ChrisA
A wonderful taxi dancer said to me once, "I won't do anything if you don't lead me", and then proceeded to just stand there until I did. Often at the start of our freestyle bit (which is quite short) some guys look at me with a 'what do I do now?' and I say - 'I'll follow what you lead' and just stand there until they start (smiling encouragingly). And if they stop mid dance because they can't think what to do next, I will just pause with them until they get back into things, or else I will verbally suggest a move, but then let them actually lead it. I hope doing this is helpful to the guys...

But I do think that I sometimes misread a lead and go into the wrong move - its not always the guy's fault!

ChrisA
17th-December-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
Would that I were brave enough to attempt such a response...
You could start by not tolerating blokes getting cross with you when it's their fault.

There's nothing wrong with your ability to follow... so go for it. :hug:

ChrisA
17th-December-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Lynn
Often at the start of our freestyle bit (which is quite short) some guys look at me with a 'what do I do now?' and I say - 'I'll follow what you lead' and just stand there until they start (smiling encouragingly). And if they stop mid dance because they can't think what to do next, I will just pause with them until they get back into things, or else I will verbally suggest a move, but then let them actually lead it. I hope doing this is helpful to the guys...
It's VERY helpful. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Even if they don't look like they're finding it helpful, it is. It really is. That look of pain on the faces of beginner guys is normal... :tears:

spindr
17th-December-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
I sometimes get guys saying they have only just joined the class and they're not sure what the routine is yet. Does this mean they want help ? Does this mean they want me to follow their lead, and ignore that they are doing it completely wrong ? Does this mean they want me to feel sorry for them ?

Personally, it's a pre-emptive apology that I may not lead it with my usual fluidity -- and I might try and catch a sneaky peak at how the instructor does the move while dancing it (which I wouldn't normally :) )

SpinDr.

plankton
17th-December-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I'm not talking about beginners (which does happen a lot, as you say), and I'm not talking about the occasional glitch that arises from a fumbled lead.

I'm talking in this instance about an intermediate dancer trying to wrestle me through a complicated move that she certainly didn't know, and making me **** it up completely by wrestling me in completely the wrong direction. Given that she hadn't even been in the class at the start, I thought it was a bit much.



happens all the time at clases, its completely fatal in Lindy I usually have to wait for the next 8 beat to get going again :sad:



Very unusually for me, I murmured "no" quite firmly in her ear, and she then stopped fighting - and it all went swimmingly after that.


ah now my version is "this is a partner dance and just for once I get to drive"



It was an extreme example, but this sort of thing does happen quite a bit.

Another one is less common, but it's when someone in freestyle has anticipated to such an extent that the move has gone completely awry... and I just stop completely for a few moments to avoid that awful scrabble for hands. It amazes me when I stop, and the lady continues attempting to dance - sometimes for several seconds - before appearing to suddenly notice that I'm no longer doing stuff, and then she looks really surprised. I get the impression that whether I lead or not, she wouldn't notice.

I suppose it could just be me failing to lead nothing.... :blush: :blush:

Chris

oh but isn't it fun when you step back and watch :devil: I find I get a much more attentive follower afterwards:wink: However for genuine messups it is always the leaders fault regardless:innocent:

At beach boogie (after a long day) I had a very patient partner just stop and say "I have absolutely no idea what you want me to do " ...... well I was confused:sorry

bigdjiver
17th-December-2003, 11:54 PM
Science to the rescue?

Mechanics of swing (http://paperairplane.mit.edu/16.423J/Space/SBE/projects/swing/swing.htm)

peterjones
31st-March-2004, 10:19 PM
I have just joined this site and read the thread with some interest,having been into Ceroc for almost two years ( a mere neophyte by comparison to some) the saying "to err is human to forgive divine" springs to mind.

In the heat and fun of Ceroc it is easy to mistake a less than perfect lead however well intentioned that lead was and to stand and stare as a result would I think be very offputting to a partner.Far better I think where the lead is mistaken to translate that to another move which usually gets me out trouble and honour is satisfied on both counts.

I tend to hang out at Twyford as well as Chesham and Berkhamstead whenever business gives me the time,cya there sometime

peterjones
31st-March-2004, 10:25 PM
Me...... Junior ??? Hell of a long time since I have been called that lol

I will take that as a supreme compliment

Jayne
2nd-April-2004, 09:52 AM
I've just found this thread (it came up originally when I didn't have much access to forum...) so I thought I'd add my tuppencew'th

Personally, I find that I'm more likely to anticipate with intermediate leaders - sorry guys! See, beginners are usually struggling to get to grips with the move and leading so I find I have no time to switch off. At the other end of the spectrum I find advanced dancers so hard to dance with there's no way I can anticipate what they're going to do next. But with the dancers in the middle who are good leads and have a reasonable range of moves I'm more likely to find less challenging - which means that I start thinking about other things and start subconsiously anticipating moves....

...as for a guy not leading then my general* policy to this is just stand there and wait until he does start leading. It's a lead and follow dance. If he doesn't lead then I'll not follow. Simple as that, IMHO. (*the exceptions to this are beginners, who I'll cut some slack and advanced dancers who I assume want me to "do something interesting"...).

J :nice:

TheTramp
2nd-April-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Jayne
and advanced dancers who I assume want me to "do something interesting"...). Oooh. Yes please!! :devil:

Trampy

Bill
2nd-April-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
advanced dancers so hard to dance with there's no way I can anticipate what they're going to do next.

"do something interesting"...).

J :nice:


and it's not just women who dance with advanced dancers who don't know what's coming next..................... some of us have no idea of the next move until we've started it - even then I often wonder what the hell I'm trying to do :rolleyes: :what:

and I do try to do somehting interesting every now and again :whistle:

Gary
5th-April-2004, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Jayne

...as for a guy not leading then my general* policy to this is just stand there and wait until he does start leading. It's a lead and follow dance. If he doesn't lead then I'll not follow. Simple as that, IMHO.
:clap:

I think if there were more follows like you, there'd be better leaders.

ChrisA
5th-April-2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Gary
:clap:

I think if there were more follows like you, there'd be better leaders.
I was delivering late birthday presents to niece and nephew yesterday, and their mum was interested in what I got up to... so I spent ten minutes teaching her (a complete novice who AFAIK hadn't even seen MJ) to jive.

- I spent two minutes on tension and compression
- I spent two minutes on stepping and turning
- 1 minute on spinning and stepping back

Then I stuck some music on and danced with her, and she coped absolutely fine. Not a trace of anticipation...

... until she started to try and remember what she was doing .

So I said "relax and just feel where I'm taking you" and mixed it up a bit more. That was enough - no more anticipation, not even a trace. I could feel hesitation in her arm as she tried to go where I was leading, but it got less and less.

Her comment afterwards was "well it was easy, I didn't have to remember anything".

What's my point?

Well, I can't help feeling, that for the girls at least, the teaching of moves in a routine is actually counterproductive - it encourages them to try and remember, and to stress when they can't - which always makes the anticipation worse.

For a class environment, where you have to pack lots of people in and teach in an extremely structured way, I can see why it's difficult to teach lead/follow, but in workshops it needn't be.

Chris

Lynn
5th-April-2004, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Well, I can't help feeling, that for the girls at least, the teaching of moves in a routine is actually counterproductive - it encourages them to try and remember, and to stress when they can't - which always makes the anticipation worse. This is interesting as I noticed that after my very first class, when I had learned only 4 moves, I danced with the teacher - who is an extremely good dancer (didn't actually realise how good at the time or I would probably have been too nervous to dance) and didn't know what was coming next so just tried to follow... and at first when classes started here I did the same when dancing with the teacher. But now I'm thinking 'OK, what move is this, where do I go next' because I am trying to remember the moves, not just follow the lead.

What I try to do now is to listen to the music and try to 'follow' the music and my partner and not consiously think too much about the moves. I suppose its like that 'unconscious competence' that you develop e.g. when learning to drive. Think I've a long way to go before I get to that point in dancing though sigh ...

Jayne
5th-April-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Lynn
What I try to do now is to listen to the music and try to 'follow' the music and my partner
I've tried to do this but I can't - I find it's like trying to listen to two conversations simultaneously - I either tune into one or the other but can't get the whole story of both at the same time.

How do you do both Lynn, I'm interested...

J :nice:

Lynn
5th-April-2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
I've tried to do this but I can't - I find it's like trying to listen to two conversations simultaneously - I either tune into one or the other but can't get the whole story of both at the same time.

How do you do both Lynn, I'm interested...

J :nice:

I probably can't do it either when I try, now I come to think about it! Its when I don't try I suppose, when a track comes on that I really like, when I find myself changing how I move to fit in with the music, then I concentrate less on the moves as 'moves'. I probably get it wrong a lot, but then I also get it wrong when I am thinking about the moves too! It probably works best when I dancing with a more experienced dancer as I maybe have never learned the move he is leading so I just have to follow! The better a dancer is, and the more I try to concentrate on how I dance with that person, the worse my dancing seems to get. :sad: But maybe that is just a stage in the learning process that I have to go through. I hope!

Gary
6th-April-2004, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA

What's my point?

Well, I can't help feeling, that for the girls at least, the teaching of moves in a routine is actually counterproductive - it encourages them to try and remember, and to stress when they can't - which always makes the anticipation worse.


:yeah:

I guess the ideal teaching environment would be the learning guys in one room, with experienced girls as partners while they learn the moves; and the learning girls in a whole different room, being led in freestyle by experienced guys, and with tips being supplied by experienced girls. Unfortunately that probably isn't very efficient.

I've even noticed with at least one girl that she was quite a decent follow on her very first night, but that she got progressively worse as she did more classes (she's gotten much better again).

Lynn
6th-April-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Gary
I've even noticed with at least one girl that she was quite a decent follow on her very first night, but that she got progressively worse as she did more classes Sounds like me... :tears:


(she's gotten much better again). ...there is hope! :clap:

Dreadful Scathe
6th-April-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Gary

I've even noticed with at least one girl that she was quite a decent follow on her very first night, but that she got progressively worse as she did more classes (she's gotten much better again).

if she had had great leads all the time she probably wouldnt have got any worse but with every leader being different she would quickly become overwhelmed with the differences, analyze them and get gradually worse until she came to terms with it all.

Foofs
10th-April-2004, 07:02 PM
Hi All,

I think I'm one of those awful girls who try to lead. Problem is that I have done some (solo) dancing before where the emphasis is on me knowing the routine and having control over my own body and where I'm going.

I am trying hard to relax and I think I'm getting better but an apology to all those who have had the 'pleasure', or those who are yet to come!

Also - what do I do when guys are severely off the beat - it drives me up the wall!! Do I just keep going; try to 'lead' him back on to the beat; or do I stop and tell him....(nicely of course!)

Fiona. :nice:

Foofs
11th-April-2004, 11:28 AM
Ok - re-reading my last post it sounds a bit harsh and I really don't mean it to.

I know everyone has to learn (please don't shout at me because I've only been doing this a couple of months too!!:( ) but it is not the 'beginners' that I have a problem with. With guys who have recently started they say so and when they go off the beat we kinda slow down, have a laugh about it and carry on.

However, there are a few more experienced dancers who tend to dance off the beat and this coupled with them trying to do complicated moves gets me very confused.

Many I'll just stop digging now and leave it at that, other than to say I had a really good time at the party night last night - thank you for dancing with me. Stuart - I am trying, and the near strangulation moment was all my fault - my apologies! :flower:

Fiona. :cheers:

ChrisA
11th-April-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Foofs
However, there are a few more experienced dancers who tend to dance off the beat and this coupled with them trying to do complicated moves gets me very confused.

Avoid them.

Any so-called "experienced dancer" who can't (a) dance in time with the music and (b) sense when a beginner doesn't want to be wound up in knots with complicated moves, we call a show-off, not a dancer.

They are dancing for themselves, maybe to impress (duuuuhhhhh :rolleyes: ), but not for their partner.

Chris

TheTramp
11th-April-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Foofs
Stuart - I am trying, That's okie. Stuart will be able to identify with this. He's trying too :yum:

Trampy

Foofs
12th-April-2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
[B]Avoid them.
[B]

That I will do - thank you!

Fiona. :grin:

Sheepman
12th-April-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Avoid them.

Any so-called "experienced dancer" who can't (a) dance in time with the music As I've said before, I know several dancers where it took years before they could dance in time to the music, at least one of whom is now a big success at entertaining his partners. So don't take the avoiding too far, especially when you have more experience yourself, so you can help them out - but maybe stick to tracks that have a VERY obvious beat.

Greg

ChrisA
12th-April-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Sheepman
As I've said before, I know several dancers where it took years before they could dance in time to the music, at least one of whom is now a big success at entertaining his partners. So don't take the avoiding too far, especially when you have more experience yourself, so you can help them out - but maybe stick to tracks that have a VERY obvious beat.

Greg You're changing the sense of what I said by quoting me selectively here, Greg.

I'm referring to the so-called experienced dancers who are both off the beat AND do complicated moves with beginners, the net result of which is to confuse them as Foofs was referring to.

I'm NOT suggesting that she avoids all those that can't dance with the beat - that's not what I said.

I'm all for cutting beginners a little slack when it comes to dancing with the rhythm - coordination takes a bit of time to develop.

But if it took the guy in your example years to be able to dance even relatively simple moves in time, I would still be inclined to question what was going on during that time, and what he was concentrating on learning.

Chris

Lory
12th-April-2004, 12:08 PM
I hold my hands up! I'm guilty of antisipating certain moves :blush: but when 9 out of 10 men do the 'side to side' move with me on their left then pull me across and wrap me in, I always get a shock, when they don't!

P.s I can't do the side to side on the right very well :tears: it feels naff!

Sheepman
12th-April-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
You're changing the sense of what I said by quoting me selectively here, I agree with your points, I was just trying to highlight that not everyone who can't find the beat should be given up on as a hopeless case, one day they might be your favourite dancer.

Greg

ChrisA
12th-April-2004, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
I agree with your points, I was just trying to highlight that not everyone who can't find the beat should be given up on as a hopeless case, one day they might be your favourite dancer.

I agree with this too.

Best of all, if a guy's not dancing with the beat, tell him so.

If he gets enough such feedback, he might even believe it and act on it, as in the case, I believe, of one of your examples?

Chris

Pink Lady
12th-April-2004, 01:10 PM
"Also - what do I do when guys are severely off the beat - it drives me up the wall!! Do I just keep going; try to 'lead' him back on to the beat; or do I stop and tell him....(nicely of course!)"


Well Foofs, I've reluctantly come to realise that some people HAVE no sense or rythm, and WILL never have any sense or rythm - even though they seem to enjoy dancing and are technicaly good at executing the moves. The really frustrating ones are those who have no rythm and don't execute the moves very well either. I've never had the gumption to refuse a dance with someone I don't particularly like dancing with so in the case of the no-rythm brigade, I try switching my brain off to the music. Not usually with much success I might add!
That's my moan over for today!:blush:

Gadget
12th-April-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Pink Lady
I've reluctantly come to realise that some people HAVE no sense or rythm, and WILL never have any sense or rythm - even though they seem to enjoy dancing and are technicaly good at executing the moves.
Is "keeping the rhythm" that important?

Thinking about it, there are several times that I deliberatly ignore the beat and smooth moves over two/three/four... beats. During this time, I'm normally following lyrics or something in the music which may be completley 'off'.
I was under the impression that this was part of "musical interpritation" :what: :confused:

There are a few ladies that are perfectly responsive followers, but when I do stuff like this they tend to try and pickup the beat for me (does this make any sense?) Are they trying to be helpfull? Are the ladies who don't just being kind and ignoring my bout of temporal insanity? Is it just a natural thing of listening/dancing to the music they hear instead of what I'm leading? Should I stop it or lead them clearer?

{BTW if anyone thinks I'm talking about them - don't: I really can't remember who or when or anything more specific :blush:}

Sheepman
12th-April-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Should I stop it or lead them clearer? No, and maybe!
I thought it wouldn't be long before this got included within this topic, but I don't think we've been talking about musical interpretation here. Yes you can slow moves down, speed them up, stretch and squeeze the rythmn to follow the vocals or a particular instrument, hopefully this all feels different to your follower compared to someone who is dancing to a regular beat, just not the one in the music that is playing!

It would be interesting to hear from followers who have only recently, or occasionally, come across leaders trying to interpret in these ways, how does it feel? A challenge, interesting, or a mess?

After doing various workshops on musicality, and dancing with particular partners who feel the music in the same way, I feel it is finally starting to "happen" for me, the trouble is, I can't now switch it off, and I'm sure in the process I have ruined many a dance with partners who have no idea what I'm on!

Greg

Foofs
12th-April-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Is "keeping the rhythm" that important?

Thinking about it, there are several times that I deliberatly ignore the beat and smooth moves over two/three/four... beats. During this time, I'm normally following lyrics or something in the music which may be completley 'off'.
I was under the impression that this was part of "musical interpritation"

I would argue there is a difference between dancing 'on the beat' and dancing in rythmn (or time) with the music. Taking an extra couple of beats to do a move doesn't mean you're off the beat - in fact if every dance had a movement on every beat it would be exhausting - plus variety is spice of life, no?!?:wink:

Indeed, it took me a few weeks to get used to not starting each move on the first beat of the bar, as many other styles of dance do - there is a difference in accent, which is to do with rythmn and not the 'beat'.

This is different from someone who cannot 'find' the beat.

I think my plan of attack is not to ask 'off the beat' and 'experienced' men to dance but also not to refuse them if asked...

Didn't mean to cause and argument.... :blush: But thanks for the advice.

Fiona.x

Sheepman
12th-April-2004, 02:22 PM
Fiona, it sounds like we've been telling you what you already know!


Originally posted by Foofs
Didn't mean to cause and argument....
You think this has been an argument :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Greg :flower:

Gadget
12th-April-2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
After doing various workshops on musicality, and dancing with particular partners who feel the music in the same way, I feel it is finally starting to "happen" for me, the trouble is, I can't now switch it off, and I'm sure in the process I have ruined many a dance with partners who have no idea what I'm on!
:yeah:

Foofs: the whole point of this forum is to encourage free debate into stuff like this and get people thinking. If this thread is what you meant by cause an argument then feel free to provoke as many arguments as you like. :flower:

Foofs
12th-April-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
: If this thread is what you meant by cause an argument then feel free to provoke as many arguments as you like.

I may hold you to that!!! :wink: :grin:

ChrisA
12th-April-2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
I feel it is finally starting to "happen" for me, the trouble is, I can't now switch it off, and I'm sure in the process I have ruined many a dance with partners who have no idea what I'm on!

..........:yeah:

It takes such a lot of work. For example...

Beginners class. Wade in the water. Teeth gritted.

I can now go right through every break as if they weren't there. But gawd it's taken some work :innocent:

I just wish I could do something better with the breaks when it's not the beginners class :tears:

Chris

Stuart M
12th-April-2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
That's okie. Stuart will be able to identify with this. He's trying too :yum:

Trampy
Yeah, I can be very trying sometimes, eh?

Don't make me take back what I said on Saturday...I mean, come on, how often has anyone said that to you Steve? :whistle:


foofs, I have no memory of any strangulation incidents, so you shouldn't either :nice:. All I remember is loads of lovely ladies with rabbit's ears and Sheena's, erm, outfit.

Now, back to my chargrilled monkfish in citrus marinade :yum:

Tiggerbabe
12th-April-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Stuart M
All I remember is loads of lovely ladies with rabbit's ears and Sheena's, erm, outfit.

You didn't like it? :wink: and it was strokeable too :innocent:

DavidB
13th-April-2004, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
After doing various workshops on musicality, and dancing with particular partners who feel the music in the same way, I feel it is finally starting to "happen" for me, the trouble is, I can't now switch it off, and I'm sure in the process I have ruined many a dance with partners who have no idea what I'm on! The best workshop I ever did (Musical Interpretation by Mario Robau) started with the words "This workshop will ruin your dancing". And he was right. 3 years later I can do about 20% of what he was talking about, and still lead at the same time.

ChrisA
13th-April-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
The best workshop I ever did (Musical Interpretation by Mario Robau) started with the words "This workshop will ruin your dancing". And he was right. 3 years later I can do about 20% of what he was talking about, and still lead at the same time.
Care to summarise it? Is any of it the sort of thing one can work on, idea by idea, or did you have to be there to get any of it?

Chris

DavidY
13th-April-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I can now go right through every break as if they weren't there. Me too, but not for the right reasons... I can hear stuff going on in the music, but don't know how to turn it into dancing. :tears:

I just wish I could do something better with the breaks when it's not the beginners class :tears: :yeah:

ChrisA
13th-April-2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by DavidY
Me too, but not for the right reasons... I can hear stuff going on in the music, but don't know how to turn it into dancing. :tears:

Been there. :tears:

Spent a lot of time there. :tears: :tears:

So long, in fact, that it drove me so crazy that I came within a hairsbreadth of giving up MJ completely. :tears: :tears: :tears:

However... :cheers:

A musicality workshop from Amir was what put me on the road to cracking it, and the part of it that somehow opened up the relevant mental pathways for me was putting on a track with entirely regular predictable breaks, and getting the class to just stop in the break, on every break, regardless of where in the move we all were.

Don't know quite what happened after that, but I suddenly found myself hearing the breaks coming, long enough ahead of time to be able to do something about it.

Occasionally I would be in the right place in a move on the break, and it wouldn't be an accident. I didn't know what I was doing, but it felt deliberate, and gradually the proportion of breaks where I was able to be somewhere useful at the right time increased.

I would suggest listening to, and dancing to, tracks with a regular structure that includes a break... examples that come to mind are "Wade in the water", "King of the Road", but there are lots of others like it... (help, please, DJs ??)

Listen not only for the break, but the start of the phrase that follows it.

Aim initially to stop on the break, and to start simply with a step back at the beginning of the next phrase.

There are some, doubtless advanced musical dancers, who speak disparagingly of just stopping on the breaks as playing "musical statues" - but IMHO you should disregard such comments, since we all have to start somewhere.

Chris

Geordieed
13th-April-2004, 01:53 PM
Leading a partner isn't just about listening to the music to do the breaks etc... I have only read a little of this thread but haven't seen anyone pick up on characterisation.

I know that musical interpretation and characterisation are only the tip of learning new ways to enjoy dancing but find it quite a challenge to suggest in my dancing what theme we are following to the style of music that it being played.

ChrisA
13th-April-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Geordieed
Leading a partner isn't just about listening to the music to do the breaks etc... Indeed. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is...



I have only read a little of this thread but haven't seen anyone pick up on characterisation.

I know that musical interpretation and characterisation are only the tip of learning new ways to enjoy dancing but find it quite a challenge to suggest in my dancing what theme we are following to the style of music that it being played.
Could you elaborate, Ed?

For beginner interpreters like me, it's so frustrating to hear only the "what", and much less often the "how". :tears:

Chris

Gadget
13th-April-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Could you elaborate, Ed?
:yeah: What exactly do you mean by characterisation?

Sheepman
13th-April-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
"This workshop will ruin your dancing". Nice to hear an honest approach, nearly every workshop I take does this to my dancing, but hopefully only in the short term. :what:
It's probably not something most people want to hear at the start of something they have forked out for though.

Greg

Geordieed
13th-April-2004, 02:50 PM
Sorry guys. Chris you know all this anyway. I have been told from dancers doing MJ that they recognise 5 basic rules for the want of a better description.

Characterisation as I've been led to understand basically means changing your style to fit the music. This would include body shape and movement and range of moves that you choose from to make the dance interesting. MJ is regarded as a frame from which you add form onto. So you wouldn't dance the same to Justin Timberlake if you had just finished with All that Jazz. Sorry to make the difference a little black and white.

You guys already know this if not under another label. It is pretty much a different topic from musical interpretation. I am still trying to pick up on the techniques of changing body levels and weight distribution that changes the style of the dance. Having a look at a Hipsters night is a good experience because there are a variety of styles in one room.

ChrisA
13th-April-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Geordieed
Characterisation as I've been led to understand basically means changing your style to fit the music.
Ah. Didn't know it was called this.

Did know it's a Good Thing to do.

Not very good at doing it though :tears:

Divissima
13th-April-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA:
Not very good at doing it though
What tosh and fiddlesticks!

TheTramp
13th-April-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
What tosh and fiddlesticks! Oh. Lay off. He's just a beginner... :wink:

Trampy

Geordieed
13th-April-2004, 03:49 PM
Better than me though.

It is hard to take on different forms of dancing. Actually going to classes for different forms of swing or tango etc kicks up how much you should be learning. Just because I have been to a few months of Savoy style doesn't qualify me to be a Lindy dancer.
Normally other dances require alot more application to learn.


You just get to know the basics but it is the style that we are trying to learn so the basics are not enough. Plus if the lady following has not learnt the same things that you have learnt it does get a bit difficult. (Rabbit in your headlights look)

Doesn't get any easier once you start learning about other dance techniques. It does help to keep things styling to a small degree. Whenever I see the really great dancers dancing socially they keep to simple dancing and you will get some people look and say they don't know what all the fuss is about, they are not doing anything. Then others will stand transfixed because they understand what they are seeing infront of them. (Getting off track)

I can count on one hand the dancers who will still be a little flashy even when dancing with the best female dancers.

ChrisA
13th-April-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
What tosh and fiddlesticks!
Fair point. I do dance faster to faster music...

Chris

Geordieed
13th-April-2004, 04:16 PM
By the way Chris when you coming out to play on a Friday night at Bisley.

What name did you have for characterisation. There are always additional debates about what to call what technique. People argue that 'musicality' is not a term to be used.

I forgot to say you can see good examples of characterisation when dancers dance a style that really doesn't fit the music. You see ballroom or ballet lines being shaped while dancing to an R&B track. I end up seeing myself as a total beginner when I see great dancers who can adapt easily.

Jayne
13th-April-2004, 04:22 PM
.

TheTramp
13th-April-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
. :

(I'll see your . and raise you a .)

Trampy

Geordieed
13th-April-2004, 04:29 PM
Me thinks not. What have you done with our Jayne by the way...

Divissima
13th-April-2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA:
I would suggest listening to, and dancing to, tracks with a regular structure that includes a break... examples that come to mind are "Wade in the water", "King of the Road", but there are lots of others like it... (help, please, DJs ??)From memory, the track that Amir used at that workshop was 'Red Alert', Basement Jaxx. I have to say that I agree with Chris - it was Amir's workshop and lessons which unlocked my appreciation and understanding of what musical interpretation means. Now actually doing it is an entirely different matter :wink:

bigdjiver
14th-April-2004, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
Is "keeping the rhythm" that important?

Thinking about it, there are several times that I deliberatly ignore the beat and smooth moves over two/three/four... beats. During this time, I'm normally following lyrics or something in the music which may be completley 'off'.
I was under the impression that this was part of "musical interpritation" :what: :confused:


I have seen this described as "dancing in the music".

Jayne
14th-April-2004, 10:44 AM
I've thought of another reason why I sometimes "anticipate" moves and I know that you'll all sleep better when you know what it is so I have to share...

I sometimes "anticipate" the end of a move if I don't like the move - it gets me out of it quicker...

...I also "anticipate" some turns because it's what I want to do at the end of the move and isn't completely out with the music.

You see, we girls spend all this time meekly following our men ( :wink: ) and sometimes we just want to do what we want to do.... (IMHO, of course...)

J :nice:

ChrisA
14th-April-2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Jayne
meekly following our men :rofl:

Jayne
14th-April-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
:rofl:
Which part of the statement are you disputing?

J :wink:

TheTramp
14th-April-2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Jayne
Which part of the statement are you disputing?

J :wink: Definitely "meekly".

Quite often "following"

Usually "our"

And unfortunately, sometimes, "men".

Trampy

ChrisA
14th-April-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Jayne
Which part of the statement are you disputing?

and sometimes we just want to do what we want to do....
"sometimes"

:devil:

Jayne
14th-April-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
"sometimes"
Well in my dictionary "sometimes" can mean "98% of the time" - it's still "some of the time"....

Trampy: :na:

J :devil:

TheTramp
14th-April-2004, 11:03 AM
Jayne: :wink:

Trampy

Geordieed
14th-April-2004, 01:34 PM
I really enjoy it when a woman can 'steal' a move. It is not a technique that is often taught in MJ. I have also been taught that the man should initiate a move and his lead should be good enough that he should not have to finish it off alot of the time.

This moves the subject on towards how well a connection you can have with a partner. A good connection can in turn help you to make your own interpretations on a move. That is why some great dancers seem to be only dancing the 'basics'. The result being that the variations are more fun and provide more interest than a complex arm tangling move.

Sheepman
14th-April-2004, 02:45 PM
:yeah:
but I'm not sure if you are referring to the physical connection, or the rapport, which makes so much difference to a dance.

Greg

Geordieed
14th-April-2004, 03:06 PM
but I'm not sure if you are referring to the physical connection, or the rapport


Well I was referring to the physical connection but good chemistry emotional or otherwise can make for a great dance. Finding yourself in tune with a dancer is something we all feel lucky to have and thank god can't ever be taught.

Groovy Dancer
14th-April-2004, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Geordieed
Well I was referring to the physical connection but good chemistry emotional or otherwise can make for a great dance. Finding yourself in tune with a dancer is something we all feel lucky to have and thank god can't ever be taught.



Amen Rev.
:yeah: :D

DianaS
11th-June-2004, 11:02 PM
Well I might be fooling myself, but I think that that's exactly what I'd prefer. Have any of you follows out there tried this? What happened?


Not exactly, stopped and stared. Sometimes when I'm was dancing with a guy who is leading well and I can feel a little confused and just say "I don't know where you want me to go" and he generally takes me where he wants me, sometimes I don't know the move, and he's initiated the start and is expecting me to follow through. That seems to work quite well.If I stop or slow down a movement, a guy who is quite experienced tends to guide me more as they feel the uncertainty in me.

Emma
12th-June-2004, 12:33 AM
Definitely "meekly".

Quite often "following"

Usually "our"

And unfortunately, sometimes, "men".

*giggle*

-busted!! :rofl:
Still - Hey, at least your eyes are open! :waycool:

eileenfb
14th-June-2004, 12:09 AM
Well, I feel its all about feeling secure, and when I know what's coming next that makes me feel secure. sometimes guys think I am more experienced than I really am, and they take me into moves where I haven't a clue. Over a period of time I learnt to just accept the not knowing, stopped trying to make sense of things. "Just go blank" is what they used to tell me. They said I danced better when I didn't think. They were right. Now I am happy to just follow, providing the man is leading well.

regards Eileen

Gadget
14th-June-2004, 02:13 PM
Welcome to the forum :flower: {carefull, it's addictive :wink:}

jivecat
14th-June-2004, 09:28 PM
Over a period of time I learnt to just accept the not knowing, stopped trying to make sense of things. "Just go blank" is what they used to tell me.


Yes, I agree, Eileen, if I just relax and clear my mind I'm much more receptive to subtle changes in the lead etc. And I found that I could follow much more difficult moves if I just went with the flow. Nothing ruins a dance more for me than feeling tense and nervous.

Foofs
15th-June-2004, 01:17 PM
sometimes guys think I am more experienced than I really am, and they take me into moves where I haven't a clue.

:yeah: This is still my biggest problem. Especially if what is being lead is very similar to another move which I do know. Has ended in some pickles. However know that I know that there are many different variations of the basic moves (etc) I'm not quite to bad.. :confused: :cool:

Dazzle
18th-June-2004, 03:32 PM
I may or may not know what I am talking about here, but here goes anyway! :innocent:

I loved Amir's comments about guys trying to be followers. I have done this a few times. I suppose I shouldn't admit to this, but on a couple of occasions at Role Reversal freestyles, a group of the guys (including myself) have gone the whole hog and dressed as ladies too. So I have danced as a follower AND in the :o heels!

I found beginners moves OK, but after that anything else was a nightmare! I tried to anticipate or even lead. So I understand what Amir was getting at, but I also think that for guys to follow is worse as we are so used to leading. It is very difficult to get that out of your head once learned, etc. Ladies on the other hand do not. EXCEPT those who learn to dance the leader's part. They can sometimes be ones who anticipate because of that fact. I know this comment will stir up a hornets nest, but as someone mentioned earlier I had to clear out my head and not think at all to be able to follow properly. That was me though ladies, so no repercussions about an possible insinuations OK!

However, and back to the main thread, most women in my experience end up this way because:

1. They tend to learn quicker than the men/ their partner.
2. Men are initially a weak lead and women want a man to be a man and sweep them around the dance floor.
3. The ladies would rather lead the man through a move/dance than it fall apart and they look silly.
4. It is more acceptable for ladies to dance either part than guys. If guys did dance as a follower they would realise just how important a strong lead and signals are to a lady. (Especially when trying to balance on heels and get the weight right! As I found out! LOL! :rofl: )

Guys remember, you can always tell a lady what you are going to do if there is no hand or other signal! I often create my own signals, obviously these only work with ladies I dance with regularly, but better they learn these eventually than anticipate or try to lead themselves. My overriding worry from ladies anticipating is from a safety aspect, ESPECIALLY with drops and the like. :yeah:

DianaS
28th-June-2004, 10:40 PM
I don't know...
I'm just as brainless when I anticipate as when I don't, I don't think the guy is going to do this next my body just seems to go there...
and sometimes slightly ahead of the guy. Is that anticipating or leading I wonder?
I guess its because sometimes guys do things in sequences and the sequence sort of goes into your bones and once you've done the first part the bones just sort of move into the next phase..
One of my really good dancing friends told me I was anticipating the other night, and I think he was quite annoyed. We have danced together on and off for three months, and I think I have just learned his patterns.
I expect if we don't dance for a few months he will change and perhaps my body won't be able to do that...

MartinHarper
12th-August-2004, 10:33 AM
In Ceroc Cheltenham, we sometimes are taught by stepping through the moves, but to an uneven beat, because teach seems to slow it down on the complicated bits so he has enough time to say "bring your left hand down, right hand to lady's right hip, step back on left, ladies back right" (or whatever) which takes more time to say than "circle and step back".

This is of course very good for spotting who's anticipating and who isn't, because the leaders tend to vary the pace - sometimes a bit behind the patter (confusion), sometimes a bit ahead of the patter (internal metronome). If the guy pauses to wait for the patter to catch up, and the girl doesn't, it stands out a little. :)

Trish
18th-August-2004, 06:54 PM
I don't know...
I'm just as brainless when I anticipate as when I don't, I don't think the guy is going to do this next my body just seems to go there...
and sometimes slightly ahead of the guy. Is that anticipating or leading I wonder?
I guess its because sometimes guys do things in sequences and the sequence sort of goes into your bones and once you've done the first part the bones just sort of move into the next phase..
One of my really good dancing friends told me I was anticipating the other night, and I think he was quite annoyed. We have danced together on and off for three months, and I think I have just learned his patterns.
I expect if we don't dance for a few months he will change and perhaps my body won't be able to do that...

Yes I quite agree with this, a lot of guys do get in regular patterns (so do I when I'm leading sometimes!), so it's no real surprise that the girls just end up finishing off the pattern. It is like your body gets used to it!


Ladies on the other hand do not. EXCEPT those who learn to dance the leader's part. They can sometimes be ones who anticipate because of that fact.

As a girl who leads a lot, I'm actually more inclined to try to think about not anticipating than thinking about what the guy is doing next. I end up doing a sort of random compute of what the next move could be until he makes it absolutely clear - ie, 1. lead forward with left hand [must be some sort of first move...], 2. turn out [definitely first move], 3. flat hand [must be a first move push spin - or 3. bring the lady back [ah a variation?... I wonder which one] etc. This is fine if I'm on the ball, and if the guys leading well :nice: , but if I'm tired and have been taxi dancing all night, I'll sometimes end up finishing things off without meaning to, usually it's when the leads a bit fuzzy though, as I presume I subconsciously think "well if you can't make your mind up, then I will!" :blush: - I hope I don't anticipate too much, I don't think I do, but it's difficult to tell when you can't dance with yourself!

skippy
18th-August-2004, 08:32 PM
hi there
it's some times hard to not take the lead, as also a taxi dancer and having to quite alot dance man during classes I often take the lead if the man is not confident in the next move and hesitates. i always say if in doubt SPIN!!!
I even sometimes have a go in the intermediate section in the class but beinging only 5ft 1 it's sometimes quite hard. :sad:
think the men have a hard job trying to remembering all those technical moves. that's why I think workshops are good and lots of fun!! :clap:
Skippy :flower:

CJ
19th-August-2004, 03:39 PM
Which brings me to wonder, how do so many ladies learn to anticipate and even lead, so forcefully?



BECAUSE THEY DO, OK?!?!?!??!?

Oh, sorry. :blush: I misread the question: I thought it was how do PREMENSTRUAL women anticipate/lead. :whistle:

Lory
19th-August-2004, 04:10 PM
BECAUSE THEY DO, OK?!?!?!??!?


It's actually passed down the female line, from one generation to the next.

It's just a female thing....


My dad is sometimes completely mystified at how my mum and I carry out a conversation, it goes something like this (with my dad, looking on it total bewilderment :confused: )

Me - you know when we were out yesterday and i ....
Mum - yeah, i liked that one too....
Me - do you think I should have...
Mum - well we could always....
Me - yeah, I was thinking that.....
Mum - tomorrow?
Me - good idea!

Both smile at one another to seal the arrangement! :) And my poor Dad, looks at each of us in turn and shakes his head in disbelief! :confused:

It's just a shame that men don't have those powers during their lead! :whistle:

under par
20th-August-2004, 01:51 AM
It's actually passed down the female line, from one generation to the next.

It's just a female thing....


My dad is sometimes completely mystified at how my mum and I carry out a conversation, it goes something like this (with my dad, looking on it total bewilderment :confused: )

Me - you know when we were out yesterday and i ....
Mum - yeah, i liked that one too....
Me - do you think I should have...
Mum - well we could always....
Me - yeah, I was thinking that.....
Mum - tomorrow?
Me - good idea!

Both smile at one another to seal the arrangement! :) And my poor Dad, looks at each of us in turn and shakes his head in disbelief! :confused:

It's just a shame that men don't have those powers during their lead! :whistle:


Scarey!!!! :sick: :what:

ChrisA
20th-August-2004, 09:39 AM
Me - you know when we were out yesterday and i ....
Mum - yeah, i liked that one too....
Me - do you think I should have...
Mum - well we could always....
Me - yeah, I was thinking that.....
Mum - tomorrow?
Me - good idea!

Both smile at one another to seal the arrangement! :) And my poor Dad, looks at each of us in turn and shakes his head in disbelief! :confused:


Duhhhh.... you mean when you were out shopping yesterday and tried on that top that you liked but didn't buy it? Your mum obviously liked it too but didn't encourage you to get it... and you're both free tomorrow and can go back in the hope that it's still there.

How hard is that? It's not as if there are that many variations on the theme.

The point you're missing is that if it's no longer in stock in that store, it's the guy that will be called on to step in, like a knight in shining armour, and phone around all the other stores in the chain, find one that's got it in stock, get it reserved and drive you half way across town so you can try it on again (obviously) and pick it up.

Guess how I know these things?? :devil: :devil:

:flower: :flower: :whistle: :waycool:

Sparkles
20th-August-2004, 09:41 AM
It's actually passed down the female line, from one generation to the next.
It's just a female thing....
[snip]
Both smile at one another to seal the arrangement![/COLOR] :)
It's just a shame that men don't have those powers during their lead! :whistle:

My Mum and I do this too - usually with the added bonus of us both suggesting the same thing at the same time - and with us sounding so similar it truely is a very scary thing indeed! :eek:

Jayne
20th-August-2004, 09:51 AM
The point you're missing is that if it's no longer in stock in that store, it's the guy that will be called on to step in, like a knight in shining armour, and phone around all the other stores in the chain, find one that's got it in stock, get it reserved and drive you half way across town so you can try it on again (obviously) and pick it up.

Guess how I know these things?? :devil: :devil:
Isn't he a wee sweetie??? And London's such a big town too! :flower: :flower: :flower:

J :hug:

Sparkles
20th-August-2004, 10:00 AM
Isn't he a wee sweetie??? And London's such a big town too! :flower: :flower: :flower:

J :hug:

To be fair, it's probably more fear of what would happen to him if he didn't do it! :devil: :wink:

MartinHarper
22nd-September-2004, 01:46 AM
{gross generalisation time}
I'm currently feeling that Ceroc women are amazing followers during freestyle, and every one of them is a tiny miracle that somehow makes the dance possible. During classes, these tiny miracles suddenly revert to non-dancers, stop following, and dance the routine.

This was driven home to me recently, when a women congratulated me, saying that the second time we had done some rather complex move it worked much better than the first. She was right. The first time through my brain had screwed up (this happens often), and I had lead some beginner move instead. Didn't get the beginner move. Got the complex move. Flawlessly: on the right beat, right number of turns. She switched my hands for me and everything.


I am very often forced to anticipate moves and/or lead myself because my partner has failed to lead the move that he intended clearly enough, and his actual lead is either non-existent, or too weak, or equivocal

So, I could solve the problem by improving my lead.... but I have difficulty improving my lead because in classes I'm always anticipated into the right move.


I murmured "no" quite firmly in her ear, and she then stopped fighting

She's not fighting me: I'm copying the stage and trying to lead. She's copying the stage and trying to ignore my incompetent leading. We gell perfectly.


Isn't it fun when you step back and watch? I find I get a much more attentive follower afterwards.

As a naturally evil person, I read this comment a while back, and cogs have been turning in my brain since. For example, suppose I were to lead the entire routine as normal, but miss off the final return. Instead, I could just hold on to whatever hand(s) I have, and lead a freeze or a two beat break. Then, when my partner ignores it and does a good impression of a person who really didn't want her right arm anyway, I can apologise and say that I was trying to interpret the music.

However, I am concerned this would achieve a very attentive and very angry follower. So, before I try it out, does anyone have a more humane alternative?

Lou
22nd-September-2004, 07:13 AM
{gross generalisation time}During classes, these tiny miracles suddenly revert to non-dancers, stop following, and dance the routine.{Snip excellent post}

We're in the middle of a rock & a hard place.

To generalise, myself, it's a rare class where any concepts of leading and following are explained. Instead, we're shown a routine & expected to copy what's on stage, and we ladies naturally want to step where/how the teacher/demo steps. This is why you'll find lots of new beginner ladies desperately looking towards the teachers, a look of abject concentration on their faces, trying to remember what step comes next in a Yo-Yo (for instance :wink: ). So we, like the man, first learn the basic steps by rote.

Then, there's the pressure not to mess up. Ladies feel that too, you know. So, if we know a move, but the man, for whatever reason isn't leading us into it, we'll do it ourselves. Otherwise we could get into trouble - for instance, once, at a class in Bristol, the female teacher actually criticised some of the ladies in the class for turning the wrong way in a move. But what should we have done, if the men were spinning us the wrong way? (Funnily enough, I've not gone back to that class again).

And some men prefer to be guided through a move, to learn it. It's that whole repetitive teaching muscles science thing that people have talked about on here. So they'd rather a lady back led a bit in class.

Plus, of course, part of the actual skill of following is being able to lead surreptitiously. But we normally don't let on about that. ;)

So whatever technique you choose to deal with your leading lady problem - please do make it humane - as, honestly, we're trying! :grin:

And you think you've got problems?! Wait until you try dancing with a male follower! I've been experimenting (eat your heart out, Gadget) recently, with some lovely & kind guinea-pigs, but trying to make them go where you want them is ....errrmmmm.... an experience! But, it's fantastic fun! (Cheers, chaps :cheers: ) And it also lets them appreciate that there's a lot of skill involved in being a follower.....

Gadget
22nd-September-2004, 09:49 AM
I'm currently feeling that Ceroc women are amazing followers during freestyle, and every one of them is a tiny miracle that somehow makes the dance possible. During classes, these tiny miracles suddenly revert to non-dancers, stop following, and dance the routine.
:yeah:

However, I am concerned this would achieve a very attentive and very angry follower. So, before I try it out, does anyone have a more humane alternative?
Try not leading to the count.. no that sounded wrong; what i mean is don't go "here, and, here, and, here": Go "here-here-here" and lead the lady trough the move rather than into each step of the move. Hard to explain.
What tends to happen is that the lady rushes to get to each point - your 'slowing down' or 'smoothing' of the move gives a clear and constant path, providing resistance when they are too far ahead and drag when they are too far behind.
{Well this is what I do, and have been complimented on it by more than one lady during the classes}

If{when:blush:} I screw up an intermediate move, generally I will feel some stronger resistance before the lady starts to travel in the wrong direction and have enough time to attempt to remedy it. Sometimes. Other times I'm in the completley wrong place and I have to work out how to get back on-track or back in-time with the rest of the class (drop a return, skip a step in a move...)

Then, there's the pressure not to mess up. Ladies feel that too, you know. So, if we know a move, but the man, for whatever reason isn't leading us into it, we'll do it ourselves. Otherwise we could get into trouble - for instance, once, at a class in Bristol, the female teacher actually criticised some of the ladies in the class for turning the wrong way in a move. But what should we have done, if the men were spinning us the wrong way? (Funnily enough, I've not gone back to that class again).
I have often said to ladies (and repeated the point made from stage) that it's a male-led dance: anything goes wrong, it's my fault for not being clear enough in my lead.
In the case of that class; if the same errors manifested themselves up here, I would have expected Lorna or Lisa to tell/demonstrate to the men how to lead a turn in the direction required (as was done last nict actually). In doing this it also explains to the lady what signals they should expect and how to react to them.

And you think you've got problems?! Wait until you try dancing with a male follower! I've been experimenting (eat your heart out, Gadget) recently, with some lovely & kind guinea-pigs, but trying to make them go where you want them is ....errrmmmm.... an experience! But, it's fantastic fun! (Cheers, chaps ) And it also lets them appreciate that there's a lot of skill involved in being a follower.....
I've danced with a couple of male followers, and a couple of ladies have tried to lead me: Result - I can't follow. If a man is used to leading, it's hard to relinquish all controll and trust your partner. I also offer/catch with the nearest hand rather than just the right (note: catch rather than let it be taken) Also, if the men are used to leading, you have to take the occasional back-led move or hurt something.
:sick: As I have said before - following is a different skill from leading, and I admire anyone who can :worthy:

MartinHarper
22nd-September-2004, 10:22 AM
I've danced with a couple of male followers, and a couple of ladies have tried to lead me: Result - I can't follow.

A couple? After two freestyle dances and no lessons, most women can't follow either.

ChrisA
22nd-September-2004, 10:59 AM
A couple? After two freestyle dances and no lessons, most women can't follow either.

I find that if I get a chance to freestyle with a new beginner for a while before they've had lessons (well, other than the first one), they follow very much better than after they've been doing lessons for a while. Since once they've had a chance to learn a few moves they've memorised them (usually better than the guys have), which is a disaster.

It's been said before (not just by me) that from the point of view of accelerated learning, the "stick beginners in a class together and expect them to learn to dance" format is highly inefficient.

Much better would be to have experienced guys dance with the beginner girls so they get led properly, and hence learn how to follow, and experienced girls who don't lead or anticipate dance with the beginner guys so that the guys learn how to lead.

Probably not practical though.

Chris

bigdjiver
22nd-September-2004, 02:41 PM
I find that if I get a chance to freestyle with a new beginner for a while before they've had lessons (well, other than the first one), they follow very much better than after they've been doing lessons for a while. Since once they've had a chance to learn a few moves they've memorised them (usually better than the guys have), which is a disaster.

It's been said before (not just by me) that from the point of view of accelerated learning, the "stick beginners in a class together and expect them to learn to dance" format is highly inefficient.

Much better would be to have experienced guys dance with the beginner girls so they get led properly, and hence learn how to follow, and experienced girls who don't lead or anticipate dance with the beginner guys so that the guys learn how to lead.

Probably not practical though.

Chris I am in favour of the majority, if not all, of the taxi dancers being female, and concentrating on the males, especially trying to split up couples. At my local venue there are many guys who will give a beginner lady a good dance. (probably the same is true of the ladies, but I am too busy to observe)

I find many ladies, (and I am sure the same is true of the guys) are very tense trying to learn the moves. I especially concentrate the early part of the evening to on newcomers, and take them out of the lesson moves, emphasising that it is a lead / follow dance. The results are sometimes amazing. This week there were two first-timers that were complete nervous klutzes during the class, but flowed in freestyle like they had been doing it all their life.

FWIW I am a klutz follower.

Gadget
22nd-September-2004, 04:41 PM
I am in favour of the majority, if not all, of the taxi dancers being female, and concentrating on the males, especially trying to split up couples. At my local venue there are many guys who will give a beginner lady a good dance. (probably the same is true of the ladies, but I am too busy to observe)
:what: Not at my venue thank you!
- there are always more lady beginners than men; while it's good to identify with another female, the male taxi should be showing them what a good lead feels like and helping them. (not that most female taxis can't, but lady's takeing the lead roll is not advised for beginners and this would encourage it.)
- While there may be some men that dance with begginers, who is to say they are any good at leading beginners? You want them to be sure that they will have at least one decent lead.
- A taxi will help then and give advice while dancing that carrys more weight than a "normal" dancer (assuming that the 'normal' dancer feels inclined/welcome to pass on any words of wisdom.)

I think that it depends on the numbers, but I would never advocate soley ladies or soley men taxis.

I find many ladies, (and I am sure the same is true of the guys) are very tense trying to learn the moves. I especially concentrate the early part of the evening to on newcomers, and take them out of the lesson moves, emphasising that it is a lead / follow dance.
:confused: Sorry, but does anyone (with the exception of complete novice leads) keep to the lesson in the first freestyle? I use the lesson moves as a backbone for other moves so that they can have a "comfort zone" that they will be more relaxed in, but I don't think I have ever repeated the lesson as it was taught during the freestyle (... or sometimes in the class either :blush: )

Much better would be to have experienced guys dance with the beginner girls so they get led properly, and hence learn how to follow, and experienced girls who don't lead or anticipate dance with the beginner guys so that the guys learn how to lead.
Then the experianced guys have to dance with beginners all through the lesson and never get a chance to improve on the nuances of leading the moves. The beginner ladies get used to a good lead and don't know what to do with a bad one, or how to cope with being led wrong.
The experianced ladys have to put up with being led all over the place all the time and don't get a chance to develop their following skills. The beginner guys get used to ladies just flowing where they lead and get no experiance of 'wrestling' with a beginner lady.

I think it's better as it stands: mixed.



A couple? After two freestyle dances and no lessons, most women can't follow either.
But I know what I should be doing. I can feel the lead. I just use that lead to set up my own move instead of waiting for the lady to tell me where to go next - not so much anticipating, more positioning for what my next lead would be.
My dancing should give me an advantage over a complete begginer: I can spin, I know where the hand will be, I can understand the lead - I just can't follow it!

Magic Hans
22nd-September-2004, 05:37 PM
I don't know...
I'm just as brainless when I anticipate as when I don't, I don't think the guy is going to do this next my body just seems to go there...
and sometimes slightly ahead of the guy. Is that anticipating or leading I wonder?
I guess its because sometimes guys do things in sequences and the sequence sort of goes into your bones and once you've done the first part the bones just sort of move into the next phase..
One of my really good dancing friends told me I was anticipating the other night, and I think he was quite annoyed. We have danced together on and off for three months, and I think I have just learned his patterns.
I expect if we don't dance for a few months he will change and perhaps my body won't be able to do that...

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Muscle memory plays a big part (IMO). I generally suggest that beginner leads (men usually) aim to create themselves a 4 move sequence, in order to create a base platform fro freestyling.

Once those four moves are totally ingrained and assimilated, then another move can be added every so often 4 becomes 5 ... 6 .... 7 ....

However, the end result must be to break that sequence. I thoroughly believe that rules are made to be broken .... only I can break rules effectively only when I know them like the back of my hand! This takes time.

Anticipating comes into that. As a lead, I have no control over what my follow does. I have no direct connection into their nervous system. Sometimes they'll do what I expect and can deal with easily. No problem. Sometimes something else happens! It is then my task, as a lead, to deal with that new situation as best I can!!! .... in exactly the same way .... sometimes I **** up the lead .... maybe change my mind at the last moment! This is a challenge for my follow! A good and alert follow ... will improvise, carry on, wait until I've recovered, and get back in the swing. [That's how new moves are born!!]A poorer, or wearier follow may just stop or wait.

As (one of) the Australian teacher(s) at Southport said. It's a team game. The complainer is in the wrong!!!! If my follow makes a mistake, and I complain .... I'm in the wrong. If I make a mistake and my follow complains .... she's in the wrong!

.... I really don't give a damn about the ethics or logic of this .... it simply seems to work more effectively that way!

Hope this helps someone .... somewhere!

Cheers .... Ian

bigdjiver
22nd-September-2004, 06:16 PM
Re: Tension between partners


I am in favour of the majority, if not all, of the taxi dancers being female, and concentrating on the males, especially trying to split up couples. At my local venue there are many guys who will give a beginner lady a good dance.


:what: Not at my venue thank you!
- there are always more lady beginners than men; while it's good to identify with another female, the male taxi should be showing them what a good lead feels like and helping them ... Maybe we are very fortunate at our local venue, but we have many dancers who, on other nights, are demos or taxi dancers. If the taxi dancers whisk off the guys, then the ladies are free for asking. This is especially important for beginner couples who are not used to MJ dance culture. They sometimes think that other men are trying to hit on the woman, and are reluctant to accept invitations from outside. As you pointed out, the Taxi dancer has an implicit authority to persuade the beginner to dance. As men tend to be more reluctant, I am still of the opinion that they should use that authority to concentrate on the men.

The taxi dancers are told to take the beginners through the class, which tends to encourage the ladies into the "learn the move" mode. The other leads can introduce them to freestyle, and following.

I find that some beginner ladies are convinced that they cannot do it in the class, because they cannot follow the teacher on the stage, and are prone to make an early exit, often never to return. If they are persuaded to dance, and can follow, it may make a difference.

Taxi dancers do tend to be business bent, though they do try and have fun too. A normal dancer who sees that the lady is going to have difficulties with the dancing, can concentrate on the social side of things, and may persuade a doubter to give it another chance, just for the fun aspect.

ChrisA
22nd-September-2004, 06:35 PM
Then the experienced guys have to dance with beginners all through the lesson and never get a chance to improve on the nuances of leading the moves.

Of course they do. Leading beginners who have no idea where to go is a very good way of refining a lead. Another is dancing with a follower that is so good that she follows everything the guy does, including the unintentional stuff. But that presupposes that the guy is sensitive enough to be aware of both what she's doing, and why.

In any case, the experienced guys will have all sorts of other opportunities to do more complicated stuff with experienced followers.



The beginner ladies get used to a good lead and don't know what to do with a bad one, or how to cope with being led wrong.

Quite so, and a good thing too. That way they never learn to anticipate or lead when the guy should be leading.



The experienced ladies have to put up with being led all over the place all the time and don't get a chance to develop their following skills.

By "experienced", I mean ladies that are already good followers, that don't need to do beginners classes to learn how to follow. They put up with it out of the goodness of their hearts, and tell the guys immediately if they're yanking or pulling them in the wrong direction.



The beginner guys get used to ladies just flowing where they lead and get no experience of 'wrestling' with a beginner lady.

Another damn good thing too, IMHO. Wrestling on the dancefloor is completely undesirable. (except if it's a cabaret, between two girls in bikinis covered in oil :devil: ).

In fact, if the beginner ladies have all learned to follow in conjunction with dancing with experienced guys, they'll never be wrestling in the first place.

Chris

Gadget
23rd-September-2004, 09:16 AM
{....}In fact, if the beginner ladies have all learned to follow in conjunction with dancing with experienced guys, they'll never be wrestling in the first place.
But now you are dictating that during a beginner lessons, only the 'advanced' can dance with the 'beginners': How many "advanced" people currently take part in the beginner lessons? How many would you loose due to "I came here to dance, not to be told who I can/cannot dance with"? How many would say "no, I'm not risking injuring myself"?

You are also generating a segrigation problem: you would now have "Begginers" and "advanced" dancers. Who judges who should be in which group? How can it be policed? Just now it is seen to be that no matter how good you are, you are doing the same lesson as complete novices: ataining this level seems more approachable.

In preventing beginner leads and followers from dancing together you are also isolating the men who have been brought by their partners, you are preventing shared comradeship that develops when people learn together and make mistakes together.

In my opinion, this may make logical and technical sense; but socially and emotionally it strikes too many dischords - and MJ is more a social dance than a technical dance.

ChrisA
23rd-September-2004, 09:55 AM
But now you are dictating that .... generating a segrigation problem .... who judges ... How can it be policed? ... also isolating the men ...strikes too many dischords - and MJ is more a social dance than a technical dance.

For heavens sake, Gadj, get back in your box - I'm not dictating anything, and neither am I advocating a wholescale restructuring of the whole MJ world!!! :flower:

I originally said


from the point of view of accelerated learning, the "stick beginners in a class together and expect them to learn to dance" format is highly inefficient.


and also



Probably not practical though.



I know perfectly well there are other considerations than just learning to dance well.

Chill, dude, everything's still Ok :flower: :hug: You'll still be able to wrestle with beginners for as long as you like :devil:

Chris

Gadget
23rd-September-2004, 10:47 AM
You'll still be able to wrestle with beginners for as long as you like :devil:
Glad I have your approval {:D:wink::devil:}

MartinHarper
23rd-September-2004, 11:00 AM
On the other hand, according to an article I read:
http://www.howtojive.com/spotlight-ceroc.htm


In Ceroc's early days there were no formal dance classes. A group of taxi dancers (the girls in full, taffeta skirts and the boys wearing white jeans and shirts) were on hand to help beginners.

So ChrisA's radical new vision of how to teach Ceroc is apparently very similar to how it got going in the first place. Learning to dance by actually dancing? It'll never catch on... :)

Leo
25th-September-2004, 12:05 AM
My dear friend

There will always be ladies out there who refuse to be led , it's just one of those things. But for the worst offenders who really get up your nostrills and tug on your nasil hairs there are a few moves that will catch them completely off guard. they won't be able to anticipate and will (maybe for the first time) break the mould and go with the flow.

Here is an example of one such move I use alot myself on beginners who really will not give up the lead and follow...

under par
25th-September-2004, 03:15 PM
My dear friend
Here is an example of one such move I use alot myself on beginners who really will not give up the lead and follow...

We could do with a few more moves like this...

but seriously I do use a couple of moves with anticipators that will catch them out a little.

And to help cover their mild embarrasment :flower: I offer them a fig leaf of advice in there ear and then try to lead with only fingertips for as long I can keep it going. :whistle:

You can then see the look of extreme concentration :eek:

a little less anticipating often occurs :yeah:

MartinHarper
27th-September-2004, 11:18 PM
a more humane alternative?

Well... I think I have one. I frequently lead the wrong thing anyway, either due to my spectacular inability to remember what order the teacher has called the moves in, or due to my general inability to lead clearly. About 5% of the time, my partner will actually pick up on this and follow my lead. As someone else noted, we guys always get grumpy when this happens, because nobody likes to mess up, and I'm no exception. However, now I make an effort to also say something along the lines of:
*grumble to self, facing ground*
"... but hey - you followed what I lead!"
*face up, eyes light up, big grin*
"That's great! I mean, that means we were actually dancing. Wow!"
Due to the rareness of ladies in classes actually following, all that's entirely sincere: it's just that previously my mind only got onto the plus points after several minutes of grumbling...

The other humane method I am developing for the future is my response to the frequent MJ questions "got it yet?" and "how long have you been dancing?". Previously I had answered honestly, but I now discover from this forum that this is in fact subtle female code for "would you like me to backlead you?". Thus, the conversation now goes more like...
"Have you..."
"Yes!"
"... got... it?"
"Definately. And its eight variations. Though to be fair I'm still working on putting Nina's salsa style into the reverse blues whirligig"

Or alternatively "How long have you been dancing?"
"Five years. Of course, that's not including former lives."
(no one ever admits to dancing for more than five years anyway)

Gadget
28th-September-2004, 12:20 AM
Or alternatively "How long have you been dancing?"
"Five years. Of course, that's not including former lives."
(no one ever admits to dancing for more than five years anyway)
I thought it was four! eh tramp? :)

MartinHarper
9th-February-2005, 01:42 AM
Comments elsewhere (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4667) made me wonder about the causes of inadvertant anticipation in freestyle, and I came to this thread looking for ideas. I think Amir has expressed one issue very well:


Try to read the following sentence and do not finish it even in your head

"The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy..."

You probably immediately completed the sentence in your head and thought 'dog.' It could have been cat, stone or anything, but if you think you recognize something, you automatically complete it. It takes a lot of training and concentration not to.

I guess I'd call this habit formation. I know that it's popular to always blame the leader, but it seems to me that this is one of the cases where it's chiefly something for the women to work on. I'm not saying that all anticipation is the result of habits, mind.

Commis Chef
16th-February-2005, 09:59 PM
One of the reasons is that during lessons women often pick up the move quicker and as they circulate they come across men who ask for help. Learning the move means they know what to expect.

I think there should be lessons just for men to learn how to lead clearly who are then returned to the women to test if they can actually lead the move they have just learnt when the woman does not know what to expect.

I admit to leading in two circumstances;

1 When the man is completely out of time it is instinctive to try to return him to some sort of timing.
2 When it is a tune with wonderful stops and interpretations and the man dances through all of it I try to influence the flow to hint at how I would like to interpret the music. I would not do it to beginners but some who should know better by the length of time they have been dancing.

I know it may confuse and it is just the devil coming out.

Yogi_Bear
16th-February-2005, 10:47 PM
I admit to leading in two circumstances;

1 When the man is completely out of time it is instinctive to try to return him to some sort of timing.
2 When it is a tune with wonderful stops and interpretations and the man dances through all of it I try to influence the flow to hint at how I would like to interpret the music. I would not do it to beginners but some who should know better by the length of time they have been dancing.

I know it may confuse and it is just the devil coming out.No, that would be a really good approach and I would endorse it fully. From the perspective of a leader it can be really frustrating to be working with the music, looking for breaks, hesitations and interesting things to do and to get entirely the wrong sort of reaction, even from fairly experienced dancers, along the lines of "You stopped", or "What am I supposed to do now?"..