Teaching Dips & Drops technique (NZ vs rest of the world)

[Chris]

This thread has been prompted not so much by some very important issues that have been recognised on the 'Body Image' thread but by several posts in other threads.

A short (true) story to illustrate:
At a Scottish dance night, a New Zealand woman I was dancing with (that I had just met) said to me: "Guys over here don't do an drops with me - do they think I'm not capable or something?"

I instinctively knew why no guys were doing drops with her:
She was 5'11" and fairly heavy set and large-boned. She probably weighed a bit more than me.

She was an experienced intermediate dancer. More to the point for me, she was NZ trained. I immediately flashed her a smile, "I'll do drops with you." (I quite like doing drops).

Needless to say, she did everything I threw at her correctly.

No woman should feel she has to avoid a class that contains drops because of her weight

There are very few drops in my experience that involve strength if correctly executed. There are very few drops where a follower's weight is a deciding factor if executed correctly.

The truth is, almost no Ceroc / MJ outfits in the UK bother teaching technique firmly and correctly. (I have pussyfooted around saying it is just 'different' but the truth is UK Ceroc and many MJ groups are unintentionally marginalising people - and this is just an instance. See my post here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=36580#post36580) for my own attempt to explain it.)

It is no good saying 'we sort of cover that' - 'sort of' is no good. It is not an advanced technique or a style extra, it is something that should be taught as a drill so that everyone starting to learn drops knows it.

It is not difficult. It could easily be written into the Ceroc bible. (Just as the very useful and not unreleated anti-yank change (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=41476#post41476) suggested by DaveB "Semicircle with the hand, step back, and stop yourself!" needs to be incorporated from the first lesson - not as some high-falutin technique that people might be able to follow eventually.)

Ladies (and especially heavier ladies - and their partners), if you want to learn, I can think of a few teachers on the circuit that can be relied on to teach you this properly: (Get a private lesson or just ask them for three minutes - the basics don't take long to teach.)

Amir Giles
Nigel & Nina
James Geary (Haven't seen him teach personally but having learnt it in NZ he's not likely to have forgotten.)
Adam & Mandy (Haven't seen him teach drops but with NZ Mandy keeping an eye on him he's hardly going to teach it wrong.)

Teachers: To brush up your technique without going public, Nina Daines is also an excellent teacher-trainer. I can't imagine DavidB not being in both categories too but he's not a regular teacher (sadly for us!)

No offence to top teachers I haven't mentioned - it is not a reflection on your dance teaching, nor is it an 'advanced' technique - but you either do it or you don't - there's no 'sort of.'

In the UK there is an emphasis on fun that is great, but there are times when people need something explained in no uncertain terms, not as 'fun'. You would not teach how to wire a plug as 'fun.'

Ceroc Ltd: Angelique Meyer (NZ Ceroc Founder) is over in the UK next year. This would be an excellent time to learn, and update the standard syllabus, without losing face. And unlike the UK and Australian outfits, she has not been hampered by competition that tends to increase the 'we know best' belief (or is it just Kiwis' natural tendency to self-effacement?)

Remember - Ceroc isn't Microsoft:
Microsoft learns.

Let's hope that under Mike Ellard Ceroc will grow, instead of too often believing its own hype . . .

[David Franklin]

Chris, I think the thread title is misleading, your post seems to be entirely about drops. Even if Ceroc had no drops at all, I think weight and size would still be an issue.

As far as your post goes - I agree that there's a lot people can do with technique to make drops safer and less strength based. But it's not for everyone, and at the end of the day, a lot of people are just going to be happier not doing drops - it's hardly all there is in dancing...

Dave

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Chris
A short (true) story to illustrate:
At a Scottish dance night, a New Zealand woman I was dancing with (that I had just met) said to me: "Guys over here don't do any drops with me - do they think I'm not capable or something?"

I instinctively knew why no guys were doing drops with her:
She was 5'11" and fairly heavy set and large-boned. She probably weighed a bit more than me.

She was an experienced intermediate dancer. More to the point for me, she was NZ trained. I immediately flashed her a smile, "I'll do drops with you." (I quite like doing drops).
Did it not occur to you that perhaps they don't like doing drops - I dance with lots of different men and not all of them do drops - and I have equally enjoyable dances with them as I do with the men who do drops. I like drops too - but they're not essential and I certainly don't look for them in every dance.

The place to learn drops IMHO is in a workshop - not in a class - and of course you can still have fun whilst teaching a serious point.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chris
...
The truth is, almost no Ceroc / MJ outfits in the UK bother teaching [drops] technique firmly and correctly.


I'm just curious to know how correct that statement is?

It seems like Chris is also saying that it should be taught, and that the teachers need more training before teaching it, and that NZ is the best place to look for the training, which are all a lot more controversial, but the statement "almost no UK outfits teach [drops] technique" statement should be an easy "true" or "false".

I'm guessing that he means "in normal classes".

I believe that most Oz teachers teach drops technique, definitely not all the time, maybe not enough, but most teachers explain technique while teaching a drop. But then maybe the technique I've been shown wasn't correct and I just don't know. Seems to work for me and my partners...

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Chris

No woman should feel she has to avoid a class that contains drops because of her weight

There are very few drops in my experience that involve strength if correctly executed. There are very few drops where a follower's weight is a deciding factor if executed correctly.


Weight and size tend to be associated. It can be very difficult to hold a large woman correctly. Weight and momentum are related. I suspect that the centre of gravity of larger ladies is higher than that of slim ones. For all these reasons large people can have problems doing certain moves at normal , or any, speed.

If any woman of any size feels uncomfortable with any move they should refuse to do it.

[Jon L]

I am only going to comment on the drops part of the original post. The NZ V UK side of the post I won't comment on.

Now to quote Lizard's Law of Drops

1) Don't trust a man
2) Don't throw yourself at a man
3) Never be afraid to say no to a man

Nothing new there
:grin:

If women follow these priciples, and keep both feet on the floor and don't throw their head back which adds 30% more weight for a man, then there's no reason why larger ladies can't look impressive when doing certain types of drops and seducers.

However Chris misses on one point that I think is important

The physical size of the man :what:

In my case (I am 5'5'' tall), a woman that tall andbroad would cause me problems on certain of the more complex drops to execute them safely

There are also certain drops which do involves lifts such as rumba drag. and also moves which involves taking the woman in between the legs such as the sausage roll .These wouldn't work with a taller and larger woman.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by David Franklin
....It seems a bit ridiculous that the only non-NZ couple he'll recommend for drops are Nigel and Nina, but he'll recommend people he hasn't seen teach just because they're NZ taught.



Originally posted by TheTramp
....By inference, from his post, Chris knows more than any (all) of them put together


No, by inference, he knows more about technique on a specialist topic than the bulk of them. And thats quite possible. In fact I'm sure its true. Writing posts about dips appears to be what he does for a living (chuckle). His posts on dip technique previously were so extensive I printed them out and used them on my workshop last weekend. And there is repetition across threads (yawn), but very few people read all the threads on the forum! Most browse randomly every couple of months.

In fact the key point is the price of real estate.

Ceroc UK bases their dancing on whatever comes out of London. Venues are ludicrously expensive in London. They need to be packed to be economic. A packed venue is not a venue you can do drops in and expect to live. I know because I used to do them non-stop in NZ and now do maybe a drop every couple of tracks.

There is a arm twisty move called a kiss-kiss which I basically never do. Thus I am not very good at it, and have never really worked at the technique. But I don't care because I never do it. So the whole concept of becoming good at it becomes a side issue.

Seperate issue now. Etiqutte for dancing with a NZ/Oz dancer > do more UCP then you normally would, do many drops and double returns because the standard way to dance with a beginner is to cut out drops and double returns and they will think your usual dancing is an attempt to insult them, dance 5-6 tracks instead of 1-2 tracks because dancing 1-2 tracks is considered a way of saying get lost.

I remember Mandy getting really put-out when she first came to the uk and danced at hammersmith because people nobody would spin her, drop her or even dance more than 3 tracks with her. Except Adam. And the rest was history.


Originally posted by JonL
<b>Now to quote Lizard's Law of Drops
1) Don't trust a man
2) Don't throw yourself at a man
3) Never be afraid to say no to a man
</B>
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Seperate issue now. Etiqutte for dancing with a NZ/Oz dancer > do more UCP then you normally would, do many drops because the standard way to dance with a beginner is to cut out drops and they will be insulted by your usual dancing, dance 5-6 tracks instead of 1-2 tracks because dancing 1-2 tracks is considered a way of saying get lost. I remember Mandy getting really put-out when she first came to the uk and danced at hammersmith because people would say thanks and walk off after only 3 tracks.And don't forget that every return or turn has to be a double at least. :wink:

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Chris
I can't imagine DavidB not being in both categories too but he's not a regular teacherI would never offer to teach drops to anyone. I just don't do them. With the exception of the moves I've done with Lily in various routines, all the drops I've done have been unplanned. Fortunately all of them so far have become 'catches'.

To me drops are about showing off - whether to yourself, your partner or the audience. If I want to show off, I'll do some aerials. One day I'd hope to be able to show off by dancing, but that is far harder to manage.

I generally see far too many drops done in freestyle (competitive and social) for my taste. I noticed this particularly in Australia, but I would have to say that the last freestyle before the competition is probably not the place to get an accurate idea. (On the subject of competitions, when judging freestyle, I have marked couples down for doing too many drops. One common criteria is variety of moves, and I'd expect a winning couple to be able to occasionally emphasise a highlight in the music, whilst still keeping the lady vertical.)

I would have to say that I used to see very little technique being introduced when doing a drop in a general class. Recently I've noticed an improvement, but it may just be me seeing better teachers.

Most of the people who specialise in drops (eg Lounge Lizard) seem to do dedicated workshops, and then do cover everything I'd want to hear.


I couldn't say if NZ teachers or dancers are better than anyone else. The ones I've seen are good, but not exactly revolutionary in either their approach or their knowledge. Similarly with Aussie teachers & dancers. The only difference seems to be the emphasis placed on various ideas, and the opportunity and willingness to practice.


Originally posted by JamesGeary
Etiqutte for dancing with a NZ/Oz dancer > do more UCP then you normally would, do many drops because the standard way to dance with a beginner is to cut out drops and they will be insulted by your usual dancingLooks like I'd better stay over here then...

[Jon L]

Originally posted by DavidB
To me drops are about showing off - whether to yourself, your partner or the audience. If I want to show off, I'll do some aerials. One day I'd hope to be able to show off by dancing, but that is far harder to manage.

I generally see far too many drops done in freestyle (competitive and social) for my taste. I noticed this particularly in Australia, but I would have to say that the last freestyle before the competition is probably not the place to get an accurate idea. (On the subject of competitions, when judging freestyle, I have marked couples down for doing too many drops. One common criteria is variety of moves, and I'd expect a winning couple to be able to occasionally emphasise a highlight in the music, whilst still keeping the lady vertical.)


Looks like I'd better stay over here then...

David - just out pf interest would you be in favour of ceroc and say Britroc - outlawing totally drops and seducers or say limiting them to max of three per record in the Lucky Dip or Dance with a stranger competitions???

It's interesting to learn what the judges at Britroc were after in the DWAS category, and comments that you have made are helpful for me the next time around.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Jon L
David - just out pf interest would you be in favour of ceroc and say Britroc - outlawing totally drops and seducers or say limiting them to max of three per record in the Lucky Dip or Dance with a stranger competitions???


I already know the answer to that (double chuckle). If it looks more like West Coast Swing by removing drops (and it does) then yes, outlaw away.

And outlawing aerials, spins and syncopation? Or instead also limit them to three each also. Or maybe you could be allowed a combined total of 3 of either spins or dips or syncopation or aerials to allocate on the fly as the music is playing. (unpleasant thought)

I don't want to have to COUNT anything of the totals of the things I'm doing while attempting to interpret music on the fly! You have enough things on your mind as it is! I can't enjoy myself dancing if I'm COUNTING things. Counting isn't dancing. Its an annoying activity that occupies a mind that should really be dancing.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Jon L
David - just out pf interest would you be in favour of ceroc and say Britroc - outlawing totally drops and seducers or say limiting them to max of three per record in the Lucky Dip or Dance with a stranger competitions???Too many people like doing them to outlaw them.

I wouldn't be in favour of a maximum, as it can have the opposite effect. People who don't like doing drops may feel they are expected to do 'x' no of drops in order to compete. This is what seems to be happening with the aerials limit in various Open categories.

My preference would be clear directions to the judges and competitors on what constitutes 'technical difficulty' and 'variety of moves' - the two categories you usually consider. Also there should be a penalty (eg marked down one or two places, or even disqualification) if any judge thought a couple was dangerous.


Originally posted by JamesGeary
I already know the answer to that (double chuckle). If it looks more like West Coast Swing by removing drops (and it does) then yes, outlaw away.James would prefer every other move to be a drop - preferably without holding the lady's hands. Then it would look more like salsa :devil:


I don't want to have to COUNT anything of the totals of the things I'm doing while attempting to interpret music on the fly! You have enough things on your mind as it is! I can't enjoy myself dancing if I'm COUNTING things. Counting isn't dancing. Its an annoying activity that occupies a mind that should really be dancing.Good point. It is also impossible for the judges as well to keep track of what each couple has done.

But for James the real reason is different. He can't count above 2

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB

James would prefer every other move to be a drop - preferably without holding the lady's hands. Then it would look more like salsa :devil:

:blush: :blush:
Got me there. I'm still trying to learn the one where you catch her on your foot, but I've supplemented it with one where you catch her on your back.

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
:blush: :blush:
Got me there. I'm still trying to learn the one where you catch her on your foot, but I've supplemented it with one where you catch her on your back. Note that these moves are much easier using a different technique than Chris advocates - I don't believe there's only one true way to do drops...

Dave

[spindr]

Personally, I avoid dips and drops in freestyle for a number of reasons:
1). I have a slightly dodgy back
2). If the music's slow/smooth, I find that drops break up the fluidity of the dance I'm trying to achieve. If the music's fast, then a dip/drop just gets "lost".
3). I have no guarantee that the partner I'm dancing with will hold their own weight -- there is an element of "lemming syndrome" with some partners (size has nothing to do with it :) )
4). If the floor's crowded, I don't feel its good manners to lie my partner full-length to take up a huge amount of space, or put their head at a potentially dangerous knee/foot height.
5). Oh and lack of practice due to 1-4 above.

SpinDr.

[Gadget]

A couple of things with regard to all the above:
1) Drops are completley different from Seducers and Dips; in these, the lead controlls the movement and descent and always has a physical contact/lead throught. Drops release the lady and catch her again - you need to know exactly how and where you release the lady, as well as their direction of travel, momentum and movement. And this can only be done (safely) with practice with a specific partner.
{IMHO}
2) I have been to two or three workshops on dips, drops and seducers as well as witnessing four or five taught in classes. Every time has involved serious safety notes and 'only do this with a partner you're comfortable with' subtext. Every one has stressed the importance of the lady supporting her own weight and using the man more for balance and control.
Admitedly my experience is limited and I have no comparison to the antipodean to compare against {other than Adam & Mandy's workshops} but I cannot think on any poor teaching I have seen that would invoke the poorly constructed and inflammatory title post.

I have seen a few dancers that perhaps would deserve such a scathing, but surley this is the fault of the pupill not listening, rather than the teacher not teaching.

[Will]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I don't want to have to COUNT anything of the totals of the things I'm doing while attempting to interpret music on the fly! You have enough things on your mind as it is! I can't enjoy myself dancing if I'm COUNTING things. Counting isn't dancing. Its an annoying activity that occupies a mind that should really be dancing.
It is a good point this....

My solution for counting ariels during competitions is to delegate the counting to Kate. If I hit the alotted maximum for a round (which I very rarely do), she tells me so. That way, if I do too many, I can blame her rather than the other way around. :wink:
It's known as "Delegating Upwards!" :grin:

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Chris


The truth is, almost no Ceroc / MJ outfits in the UK bother teaching technique firmly and correctly.

Time for a punter's point of view.
I think I'm pretty much a run of the mill standard (out of practice) dancer, who has been very lucky to find the Forum early and takes in a lot of what is said here.

I have been to many classes and workshops, both Ceroc and independant, where dips and drops have been taught. I can think of no instance where they were taught (what's the opposite of firmly) sloppily?? and/or incorrectly, every time the emphasis on woman taking her own weight and that the man should pretty much be able to walk away at any point and don't thow yourselves girls etc etc were emphasised again and again.

as a punter some are going to say "how would she know?" well I think I've seen enough on these pages and on the floor in comps etc to know.

And so meandering to the point.....I am quite sure I have been taught well, and could do most of the moves in the workshops, those I couldn't do I watched with great interest and thought to myself, hmm must try that one again in a few months.

But put me on a dance floor 6 months later and lead me into a move that I haven't done for that long perhaps from a move that I hadn't done before ?? and I could very easily be wrong footed and off balance and make a complete arse of it....Mr Hancock and Mr Lampert et al. can more than vouch for that kind of event!!

and NOW the point, my making an arse of the dip (or any other move for that matter) will almost def. have had nothing to do with the way I was taught to do it, it was just that I often get things wrong on the dance floor.

Any possibly I'm not alone in that.

So if you dance with me and I mess up, please don't assume I'm badly taught....I'm just not very good!!!

'moan the 'chers

C:D

ps as we like analogies here, I have been expertly taught exactly how to decline the definite article in German, and can do it on paper in a quiet room but put me in a crowded airport, desparate for the loo and yes I'll be understood but the execution could be laughable. And surely we wouldn't blame the teacher for that??

[Bill]

Originally posted by Bill
Given that all women should be taking their own weight when going into a dip ( unless she's being lowered into a full drop) then her weight should be the major factor for doing a dip or not


which should have had a 'not' so it reads ' then her weight should not be the major factor for doing a dip or drop'.

Must start reading my posts more carefully :sick: :rolleyes:

[Graham]

Originally posted by TheTramp
If your post wasn't about any of that, what was it about? Since Chris seems to be having difficulty getting his point across without upsetting people I've decided to post what I think he was getting at, and he can correct me if I'm wrong. Here goes: Many larger people are marginalised by MJ (at least in the UK) because the teaching methods generally employed do not place sufficient emphasis on correct technique. With correct technique, other dancers would have no problem performing a wide variety of moves including drops with a larger partner. In NZ, greater emphasis is placed on correct technique and this enables NZ-trained dancers to perform moves such as drops with larger partners. MJ teachers in the UK should take a leaf out NZ's book and adopt a teaching style with more emphasis on correct technique.

[Graham]

Personally I don't agree with Chris. I see his point about marginalisation, and I agree that if you have poor technique you will not be able to do these moves with a larger partner, but I do not believe that this is because UK teachers do not know it/teach it. It's just a reflection that fewer people here do drops at all, and those who do generally use them less (and therefore dancers here are generally less practised in the correct technique).

[Gus]

Originally posted by Graham
Personally I don't agree with Chris. I see his point about marginalisation, and I agree that if you have poor technique you will not be able to do these moves with a larger partner, but I do not believe that this is because UK teachers do not know it/teach it. It's just a reflection that fewer people here do drops at all, and those who do generally use them less (and therefore dancers here are generally less practised in the correct technique).
Totally agree. Simple rules is YOU DONT TEACH DROPS FROM STAGE!! The correct way to teach drops is in a workshop. If you want to know what ladies think ... well speak to the likes of Sheena, Heather etc. They were on a drops workshops I ran last year ... it was only an 'intro' course but there were some important lessons learned .... and Sheena etc al will only be too glad to explain to you what guys are doing wrong. IMHO, if you aint been taught properly to do a drop ... THEN DONT DO THEM!

{Rant Mode Off}

Small Point: Its a HUGE oversimplification to believe that just cause Aussies/Kiwis do more drops means that they are doing them properly.:wink:

[horsey_dude]

Does anyone want to venture a definition on what a drop is....

I tend to think of a dip as a safer move where the man supports more of the ladies weight and lowers her and a drop being more dangerous and involving a short period of freefall...... I will do dips with dancers I don't know very well if they seem capable but only do drops with someone I have done them with in class or if I have done quite a few dances with that person and know they can do them.

I have heard the terms dips and drops being used interchangeably and defined as being the exact opposite of the way I think of them...

[Bill]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
Does anyone want to venture a definition on what a drop is....

I tend to think of a dip as a safer move where the man supports more of the ladies weight and lowers her and a drop being more dangerous and involving a short period of freefall


I'd go along with that. I can and do execute a few dips in freestyle but only lowering the woman a little so she can still take her own weight - as shown by both Lorna and Lisa on stage. I also think this can look just as good as a full drop.

I would assume a drop is where a woman is past the point where she can take her own weight and requires the man to control the drop and to lift/pull her back to her feet. As someone who suffers from back pain ( quite a bit recently) I seldom do full drops so dips are fine - and generally safer.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Bill
I would assume a drop is where a woman is past the point where she can take her own weight and requires the man to control the drop and to lift/pull her back to her feet. Yeah. I'd go with this definition. I can't think of too many moves where the lady is in 'freefall'. So, I always tend to use the definition that Bill has given.

Steve

[Bill]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Yeah. I'd go with this definition. I can't think of too many moves where the lady is in 'freefall'. So, I always tend to use the definition that Bill has given.

Steve


oh no ...................we've agreed again.......................in that case I'll have to review my definition.................... or is it that with your birthday apporaching you're in a friendly mood :D :na:

ps
thought the Katie Melua track was good to dance to.

[spindr]

Originally posted by TheTramp Yeah. I'd go with this definition. I can't think of too many moves where the lady is in 'freefall'. So, I always tend to use the definition that Bill has given.

Well, I guess there's a certain "acrobatic" element to either dips or drops -- just dip isn't quite such a "scary" word :)

I think a lady should have all of her own weight in a dip, e.g. a seducer-style move -- or be capable of easily recovering her own weight if the man moves away, e.g. by stepping across when slightly leant (thinking of a lean-drop / leaning-on-a-lamppost). In drops this wouldn't necessarily be the case (easily). [I really don't expect to take any of the lady's weight in a seducer-style move, and only a small amount in a lean.]

I'm concerned that people lead the lady to free-fall -- that's probably not a good idea, unless you're doing a choreographed performance piece with a set partner. [I remember from a brief holiday climbing that it's much harder to stop someone once they start free-falling, than if you keep the rope taut.]

SpinDr.

[Mikey]

Originally posted by spindr
Well, I guess there's a certain "acrobatic" element to either dips or drops -- just dip isn't quite such a "scary" word :)

I'm concerned that people lead the lady to free-fall -- that's probably not a good idea, unless you're doing a choreographed performance piece with a set partner. [I remember from a brief holiday climbing that it's much harder to stop someone once they start free-falling, than if you keep the rope taut.]

SpinDr.

Flippin eck !!!:what: Are we now going to involve rope and tackle when we do some drops and seducers? That should go a long way to please the larger ladies...:nice: "NOT":tears:

Anyway, the definition of dips and drops I agree with.. but where do you think the seducer comes in to it's own ? I mean, just how far or how much do we seduce the lovely ladies on the dance floor eh:wink: :innocent:

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by Mikey
Flippin eck !!!:what: Are we now going to involve rope and tackle when we do some drops and seducers? That should go a long way to please the larger ladies...Oh I don't know - I could be very much appeased....If I get to choose who I'm roped to ... :wink:

just how far or how much do we seduce the lovely ladies on the dance floor eh:wink: :innocent: In your case Mikey..... do you REALLY want me to answer that??? But if this is the direction the thread is heading off in, can I exchange my rope and tackle for my leetle fur-lined handcuffs???

:wink:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Bill
oh no ...................we've agreed again.......................in that case I'll have to review my definition.................... or is it that with your birthday apporaching you're in a friendly mood :D :na:

thought the Katie Melua track was good to dance to. It's okie Bill. Normal service will be resumed in the New Year.

In fact, it's there, item number 723 in my New Years Resolutions List.

And yeah, the Katie Melua track is nice, and I can quite see why you and I would enjoy dancing to it. Which only leaves the other 50 men at Peterculter hating it!!! :D

Steve

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Oh I don't know - I could be very much appeased....If I get to choose who I'm roped to ... :wink:

In your case Mikey..... do you REALLY want me to answer that??? But if this is the direction the thread is heading off in, can I exchange my rope and tackle for my leetle fur-lined handcuffs??? So, where do I join the queue then Miss DC? :na:

Steve

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by TheTramp
So, where do I join the queue then Miss DC? :na:

Steve

Now Stevie-Sweetie, I've already scared you off once this week already....

But if I bring the handcuffs, do you dare to bring a large pot of Hagaan Daz - and we'll see if we can develop a few moves for Mikey to use in his next "Strictly Sinful" debauchery!? (or get thrown out of a venue in the process of trying...) :wink: :grin:

Mind you, any weight gain due to calorie intake is NOT my responsibilty!! :rofl:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Now Stevie-Sweetie, I've already scared you off once this week already....

But if I bring the handcuffs, do you dare to bring a large pot of Hagaan Daz - and we'll see if we can develop a few moves for Mikey to use in his next "Strictly Sinful" debauchery!? (or get thrown out of a venue in the process of trying...) :wink: :grin:

Mind you, any weight gain due to calorie intake is NOT my responsibilty!! :rofl: You're on. Bognor in January?? (And we'll just have to find ways to work off any excess calories.) :wink:

Steve

[cerocmetro]

Just picked up on this posting and thought I would make a couple of observations.

The main one, is the difference between NZ and Uk. I think one point has been overlooked. Liability.

I may be wrong, (I would ask Mandy but she is doing what everyone should be doing at this rediculous time in the morning, I have to feed the baby), but in NZ, you cannot be sued for negligence.

The UK is now much closer to the USA in this respect and any self respecting teacher in the UK has got to be bloody sure he is doing things properly.

Should we, take medical checks before we allow you to do one of our classes? If you go for a massage even here, you have to fill out a full health form let alone be thrown over someones shoulder.

Also don't miss the fact that classes in NZ are much smaller. I was amazed when I attended a class in NZ, when they started the class, they did a warm up, not dancing one track but a full body warm up, stretching etc.

Because the classes are smaller, it was my impression that people took the dancing more seriously overall as against here where the majority go for the social side.

Watch any NZ/OZ video and yes larger people do airsteps as well as not so large. They build up to it slowly and don't seem to have teachers popping up out the woodwork stating they are qualified to teach as we seem to get every other week here.

Ceroc for all their faults do recognise these facts and have always been against teaching airsteps. We have moved towards a compromise by doing lifts and drops. Yes as I think James mentioned, I have learnt a lot from Mandy. Not only was she NZ trained, but also taught there and has helped me understand not just how to lead, but also what is required from the ladies. When I teach lifts and drops I will tell you that if anything is feeling sore, you are probably doing it wrong and I will find out what it is before I let you continue.

We have taught airsteps but in very limited situations. The one time we taught serious airsteps was to our team that entered the Ceroc Champs in 2001. We won of course :blush:

Is this a good time to mention the Jive Masters viseo?? :tears:

My personal opinion is, and I do hope I will be proved wrong, is that one day something will go very seriously wrong in someones airstep class and that will change the whole way classes can be taught in this country. Sounds dramatic but that is the way things are going.

You can of course limit this risk by not encouraging individuals to teach these moves if they are not trained to do it and also to not do these moves if you are not fit enough to do them

Adam

[Chris]

A dance point here that I don't think has been covered -

(Definitions - the ones I use personally anyway)
Dips/Seducers/Drops

Seducers. eg First Move Seducer. The leader generally has one arm supporting the follower's weight whilst lowering her.

Dips. Like a seducer but not lowering the follower so far. Much underused IMO. The angle of a dip, where the follower is only about 30 degrees from vertical, is easier to do and easily more attractive visually than the seducer, which needs to be done very stylishly to look really good.

Drops. Usually double hand to double hand moves. e.g. ballroom drop.

(My thread was about drops - dips wasn't in my title.)

I use these terms (like technique and style) in a specific way and always the same way, but I know people do use terms differently. I don't teach very often, have no interest in pushing classes, and don't like to be labelled a teacher, but if you want to reference this stuff, feel free to download my hand outs from two 1-hr classes here 1 (http://www.docker.demon.co.uk/dance/BAWA notes1.pdf), 2 (http://www.docker.demon.co.uk/dance/BAWA notes2.pdf), 3 (http://www.docker.demon.co.uk/dance/BAWA notes3.pdf). (I also have a bad back - it's not a problem for these moves done correctly.)

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by TheTramp
You're on. Bognor in January?? (And we'll just have to find ways to work off any excess calories.) :wink:

Steve

Now Mr. Tramp! I was there... but where was my tub of Pralines 'n cream??? :devil:

(Nice dance though! :hug: )

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Now Mr. Tramp! I was there... but where was my tub of Pralines 'n cream??? :devil:

(Nice dance though! :hug: ) Didn't you get the message?? Chalet 4. 4:30am?? Damn!! It melted :tears:

It was a nice dance though. Thank you :hug:

[Lounge Lizard]

Hey Ho time to join in this thread.
Some direct replies -

Gus - Ok Drops seducers dips SHOULD be taught in workshops, but if you can get EVERY dancer to attend your workshop well done.
So for the dancers that only go to classes or weekend events they should be taught from stage in their simplest form.

Jon - height is no excuse - I am same height as you - posture and balance count, Strength on some moves but not many.

Chris - Strength IS important with larger ladies.......cos if they slip, fall or don't support their own weight you have to catch and keep hold of them.
Trust me mate you and the guys from NZ are not the only ones that can teach these moves. There are loads of teachers who cover the subject well - not sure why I did not make your list of teachers capable of teaching drops - Two years ago a NZ lady Emailed me that she was coming over to UK and wanted private lessons as she had heard about me on YOUR website...how things change.

Names
Dips the lady maintains 100% of her own weight throughout the move - suitable for any class
Seducers - slightly lower than a dip, lady (generally) maintains 50% of her own weight and is supported by guys arms
Drops - lady keeps as much of her own weight as move will permit, it is a hand hold move and lady can be lowered down low BUT IT IS NOT COMPULSORY TO DO SO

DavidB - sorry I don't think they are showing of, they can when executed correctly and to the right music compliment the dance.

safety - believe me I spend more time looking for potential problems with a move than I do developing it, I/we cover safety but it is also important to keep the dancers with you - to much preaching from stage about safety (or anything) and the dancers will turn of, loose interest and that's when accidents happen.

My teaching format - 10 Jive time weekenders, over 20 drops and seducer classes, collectively over 10,000 dancers Plus Workshops throughout the country and now three video's/DVD's on Dips, drops, and seducers has resulted in me teaching these moves as follows
Always teach the basics and safety first
Emphasise weight distribution for guy and girl
Never anticipate, always ask if partner is ok with move
Teach a simple version of each move then a slightly harder version then the advanced version - this works as beginners are not left feeling bad about not being able to do the move and advanced dancers get something out of the class/ workshop.
yes it relies on discipline of the dancers to keep to their level, but the alternative is they all go for the advanced option IMO
Peter

[Jon L]

I was doing Mr. L's drops class with one of my regular partners last Saturday, and one of the things she said was "he's very good on the safety", because he stops and doesn't let the class rush ahead.

A compliment to Peter and also to his former co-teacher Alina, is that almost every single drop and seducer I can now dance in freestyle , I have learnt from their workshops. Both of them have been very patient in showing me things, which I have really appreciated.

:)

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gus
BUT ... at the end of the day its the poor club teachers who have to sweep up the mess. The sad reality is that after workshops like this I will have to put up with people doing moves well outside their capability, with no regard to the music and putting themselves and other at risk. No reflection on the quality of teaching ... just my personal experience. So .. don’t expect me to be singing the praises of mass workshops.[/i] Yes. That's possibly one end of the spectrum. At the other end, you've got those that went to the workshop, enjoyed themselves, took on board the 'lecture' about only doing the moves at the right time, in the right place, with the right person, and maybe improved their dancing because of it. Why should those people be denied a chance to learn and do something they'll enjoy, because of others?

If you always focus on the negatives, then you'll probably only see the negatives.

Incidentally, how many people did you have attend the last Nigel & Nina, or Viktor & Lydia workshop you ran?

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Yes. That's possibly one end of the spectrum. At the other end, you've got those that went to the workshop, enjoyed themselves, took on board the 'lecture' about only doing the moves at the right time, in the right place, with the right person, and maybe improved their dancing because of it. Why should those people be denied a chance to learn and do something they'll enjoy, because of others?

If you always focus on the negatives, then you'll probably only see the negatives.

Incidentally, how many people did you have attend the last Nigel & Nina, or Viktor & Lydia workshop you ran?

Steve

Some fair points made but I will always come from a duty of care to my dancers .... its a legal and moral obligation. I'm not saying they won’t learn something new ... but then again I would like to think that every Blitz/Ceroc instructor is more than capable of also doing that:wink:

As for numbers at workshops ... tend to be limited to around 40/50, depending on the experience of the attendees and the complexity of the moves. Additionally, at all workshops, the instructors are given time to wander round the attendees to help, correct and advise. Sorry, but if you are trying to make any comparison to mass lessons such as Bognor I wouldn’t even go there.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gus
BUT ... at the end of the day its the poor club teachers who have to sweep up the mess. The sad reality is that after workshops like this I will have to put up with people doing moves well outside their capability, with no regard to the music and putting themselves and other at risk.[/i]

I would suggest that you don't have to put up with it.

I wish the 'poor club teachers' were as explicit and uncompromising as LL is about telling people exactly how unacceptable floor level drops are on a crowded dance floor.

I did Pete's class at Bognor, and was well impressed with the way he stood there and most uncompromisingly put the message across - several times. He also demonstrated at least twice how to do a very gentle seducer, more of a twist than a lower, and showed how to protect the lady's head.

The 'sad reality' is that in my experience, there is nowhere near enough attention paid by teachers and organisers to discouraging aerials and drops on crowded dance floors.

We all whinge about it here, but Pete is the only teacher I have seen do a class where it's spelled out as clearly. Usually if there's a reference to unacceptable activities, whether unwanted UCP moves or aerials and drops during freestyle, it's not much more than a gentle reference, often delivered in a jokey manner, which completely fails IMO to get the message across strongly enough.

If what I saw of Pete's teaching on Saturday is representative of what he does, and I'm sure it is, it sure as heck ain't him that's responsible for perpetuating stupid and inconsiderate behaviour on the dance floor.

Chris

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gus
Some fair points made but I will always come from a duty of care to my dancers .... its a legal and moral obligation. I'm not saying they won’t learn something new ... but then again I would like to think that every Blitz/Ceroc instructor is more than capable of also doing that:wink:

As for numbers at workshops ... tend to be limited to around 40/50, depending on the experience of the attendees and the complexity of the moves. Additionally, at all workshops, the instructors are given time to wander round the attendees to help, correct and advise. Sorry, but if you are trying to make any comparison to mass lessons such as Bognor I wouldn’t even go there. Nope. Not trying to compare to the main hall at Bognor/Camber at all. As you say, an impossible comparison.

But, with 25 couples, I still don't see the instructors having that much time to spend individual time with all the attendees. I know I've taught a number of workshops with 10/12 couples in, and I've not been able to spend as much time as I would have liked/some couples needed. Let alone 25. Although, again, still much more than with 300 couples in :na:

Mass workshops I think do have their place, even if they are not my personal taste for a learning environment either. It just becomes a big class, usually specialising in one thing (for example, Nigel & Nina's excellent yearly blues workshop (this coming weekend?), where the hall will be packed (if it's anything like previous years), and yet lots of people will take lots away from the workshop - which has previously included dips and baby lifts).

I do agree, that some people who attend these things do worry me. But they probably worry me anyhow, so no change there then really....

Steve

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by ChrisA
We all whinge about it here, but Pete is the only teacher I have seen do a class where it's spelled out as clearly. You obviously didn't go to either David & Lily's workshop, or indeed my own, where both of us gave a 2 minute talk about what not to do with the moves we were about to teach, before we started teaching.

Steve

[TheTramp]

I should say also, from previous experience, that giving such a talk before you start teaching, is probably only talking to the converted.

Ive taught baby airsteps workshop in a number of places, and given the same talk before the class. And do see some people doing the moves I taught, at inappropriate times, and with inappropriate people.

Has to be said that those people would probably attempt to do the moves, workshop or not. At least now, they may be doing them correctly?

However, I have also decided that personally, I don't really want to be teaching this sort of move again, unless I have no other choice, and have requested both at Stompin', and at Southport, to be teaching jive or blues classes, rather than airsteps.

Steve

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
You obviously didn't go to either David & Lily's workshop, or indeed my own, where both of us gave a 2 minute talk about what not to do with the moves we were about to teach, before we started teaching.

Steve
I didn't, but I wasn't thinking about specialist aerials classes, where I would expect nothing less.

I've been to an aerials class with David and Lily, and a baby aerials class with Andy and Rena, and of course they were as clear and explicit as I'm sure you were, but that's not what I'm getting at.

Drops and seducers of varying complexity are frequently found in ordinary weeknight class routines, and it's there that the emphasis is needed IMO, rather than pointing the finger at Pete's workshop as a source of trouble.

The point I'm making is that practically everywhere I go, there are morons doing dangerous things, and there isn't enough effort to discourage it.

Chris

[horsey_dude]

I would just like to say how nice it was to see a teacher telling the ladies to slide their non-supporting foot along the floor during a seducer/lean type move as it looks terrible when they just wave it around a few inches off the ground.......

Thank you virginia!

[Chris]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
I would just like to say how nice it was to see a teacher telling the ladies to slide their non-supporting foot along the floor during a seducer/lean type move as it looks terrible when they just wave it around a few inches off the ground.......

Thank you virginia!

Oh good - who's virginia? (will she go as far as telling them off if they don't? Telling them not to take a step back as they go down? Harping on about it until they all *stop* doing these things?)

x Chris

[Chris]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Chris - Strength IS important with larger ladies.......cos if they slip, fall or don't support their own weight you have to catch and keep hold of them.
Trust me mate you and the guys from NZ are not the only ones that can teach these moves. There are loads of teachers who cover the subject well - not sure why I did not make your list of teachers capable of teaching drops - Two years ago a NZ lady Emailed me that she was coming over to UK and wanted private lessons as she had heard about me on YOUR website...how things change.

Strength, for the most part (on standard flat surfboard type drops and seducers) is not very important IMO if the 'vertical' drop technique is taught and hammered home. She will not slip or fall if she is not given that opportunity - and as hand holds are involved there is probably less chance of her slipping and falling than say doing a wurlitzer!

This discussion digressed to lots of other things, like is Peter a good teacher, how long Peter has taught drops, whether Peter teaches safety, whether the few teachers I mentioned are the best, and all sorts of other things that were totally irrelevant to the point IMO.

I mentioned a technique (both a dance technique and teaching technique) which some teachers may choose to incorporate in their drops classes/workshops. (And yes, I favour it and think it's important, but that's my opinion and there are lots of other things and views that are important.) I'm not saying teachers are bad teachers if they don't include it, merely that they don't include it. I've watched your classes at intervals of several years and also reviewed your DVD and nowhere have I observed you making much of the technique under discussion. That's a statement, not a personal criticism.

I don't need to 'trust you' that there are not only a select few that teach drops properly, I know that. Neither is the 'vertical' technique limited to New Zealand. N&N certainly aren't Kiwi, and I would also add Simon de Lisle from personal observation, though he doesn't teach here very often.

The main practical thing is that both persons need to do a drop the 'same' way. If the man is trying to lower the woman vertically but lets her launch backwards it will easily hurt his back (and make it less safe for the woman). But guys, you can test it out: do a basic seducer and make sure your feet don't move very much and your hands only go in a vertical line to lower the lady. If she is not sliding her left foot out and bending her right leg bum-to-heel, she will not go down - you end up doing a simple dip and there's no problem. If she does go down vertically she has some of the technique so odds on she may have the rest, and so you may want to do a simple flat drop if she's game for it.

Gus: I agree with much of what you say about teaching drops in small workshops not classes, but I would hold that there is an advantage of hammering home some basic techniques I've mentioned, should the teacher wish to incorporate those for his/her dancers, in regular intermediate classes, simply as repetition makes it stick. This applies to the basic seducer and, if the teaching style is appropriate for including it, basic flat drops. But I wouldn't say I think any teacher should - just that I've seen it's possible and has led to good practice IMO.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Chris
Gus: I agree with much of what you say about teaching drops in small workshops not classes, but I would hold that there is an advantage of hammering home some basic techniques I've mentioned, should the teacher wish to incorporate those for his/her dancers, in regular intermediate classes, simply as repetition makes it stick.

Theory is good ... but infortunately this doesn't take into account natural stupidity. I've seen drops taught several times over the last few months, all with the correct saftey points, and STILL see idiots do them wrong cause "they know better". I've seen it myslef from stage ... doing the "ladies, slide your foot out, always keep contcat with the floor etc. etc" and still be treated to legs akimbo in the air showing next weeks laundry ... NOT NICE:tears:

What can you do?:confused:

[Chris]

Originally posted by Gus
Theory is good ... but infortunately this doesn't take into account natural stupidity. I've seen drops taught several times over the last few months, all with the correct saftey points, and STILL see idiots do them wrong cause "they know better". I've seen it myslef from stage ... doing the "ladies, slide your foot out, always keep contcat with the floor etc. etc" and still be treated to legs akimbo in the air showing next weeks laundry ... NOT NICE:tears:

What can you do?:confused:

At the risk of alienating people who aren't really there to learn, you can be a hell of a lot stricter.

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Chris
At the risk of alienating people who aren't really there to learn, you can be a hell of a lot stricter.

Now that one sentence in itself shows me just how little you know or understand about the dance world, as a business especially...

On a personal note, it's a good job organisors are more concerned about not alienating the dancers around them than you are with people you try interacting with.. sadly:sad: