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Double Trouble
29th-April-2010, 10:45 AM
So, I’m learning to lead, or as they continually annoyingly say at my local class I’m learning to be a man.

I’ve gotta say, the amount of resistance I’ve received from the teachers and some of the men has been bordering on unacceptable. Funnily enough, the women I’m dancing with seem perfectly fine with it and some have said I’m the best man in the room. (I think that’s supposed to be a compliment). :confused:

To name a few, these are some of the comments I’ve received from teachers and men.

Week 1

Male demonstrator “Why are you learning to be a man?”
Me “Because I’m bored of following and wanted to learn something new…by the way, I’m not learning to be a man, I’m learning to lead”
Male demonstrator “Of course you do realise that all the women in the room think you’re a raving lesbian”
Me “Have any of the women actually said that?”
Male demonstrator “No, I just know that’s what they will be thinking” :rolleyes:

Week 2

Female Demonstrator “You’re on the wrong side”
Me “No I’m learning to lead”
Female demonstrator “Why do you want to be a man? If you lead they’ll be men over and they’ll get all confused”
Followed by unnecessary tutting and huffing as she has to move ONE man round. :angry:

Week 3

Men over again so I’m sitting down waiting for the rotation to take my turn as a lead. A man comes over and offers me his hand, thinking I’m a follower waiting for a leader.

Me “It’s men over, not women, I’m leading”
Man “Well get up then and then you won’t have to be a man, you can be a woman”
Me “No thanks, I’m learning to lead, you’ll have to join me in the queue”
Man looks at me with disgust “Oh suit your bloody self then” and sods off to the bar outraged that for the first time in years there are men over and refuses to join in. :really:


Even the organiser is looking at me with suspicion. Gav thinks the organiser suspects I’m using his classes to learn to lead so I can be a dance teacher elsewhere. I’m not, but even if I was, what difference does it make?

I don’t want to give up learning to lead. I’m really enjoying it, but I’m starting to get the hump with the ignorant comments. Hopefully they’ll stop when they realise I’m not giving up trying.

daveb9000
29th-April-2010, 11:00 AM
It seems to depend on the venue. My wife frequently leads in the Beginners' class (and occasionally Intermediate), as do a number of other women, and it seems to be fairly common in Edinburgh (maybe due to the lack of men). However, when we attended a Ceroc class in London while on holiday, and another in Manchester, it seemed alien to them for a woman to be leading and many of them seemed quite uncomfortable with it. As a side point, we also sometimes see men leading men during free style and no one seems to have a problem with it. I certainly don't make any assumptions over sexual orientation based on it.

Trouble
29th-April-2010, 11:10 AM
ahh, i think im going to have to come home with you Tuesday nites and go dancing. Sounds like fun. If i go with you, lead as well, can you imagine the gossip.. ooh we got two raging lesbians at our club. LOL.

What a crock. Silly old rude bastards.:angry:

Double Trouble
29th-April-2010, 11:21 AM
raving lesbian


raging lesbians

What I want to know is what's the difference between a raving/raging lesbian and a standard lesbian?

Trouble
29th-April-2010, 11:22 AM
What I want to know is what's the difference between a raving/raging lesbian and a standard lesbian?

LOL ooooops :lol:

Gerry
29th-April-2010, 11:58 AM
You can practice you leading skills on moi at SP.

rtwwpad
29th-April-2010, 12:07 PM
Same here, only rule is if you put your hand back on the top (in the follow position) then I get to steal the lead back for 30 seconds. Its the game I play with the wife when she leads, keeps her on her toes.

Double Trouble
29th-April-2010, 12:17 PM
You can practice you leading skills on moi at SP.

Thanks Gerry. :flower: Unfortunately I'm not going to SP. :tears:

Maxine
29th-April-2010, 12:20 PM
So, I’m learning to lead, or as they continually annoyingly say at my local class I’m learning to be a man. .....snip



I've got to say that when I dance as the lead I do tend to describe it as dancing as a man and when I used to see women in the line looking confused I would say don't worry I'm a man.

Don't be put off with their stupid attitude it's great fun to dance as the lead sometimes and has made me a lot more tolerant of male dancers.

I also like to dance as a lead with men dancing as a follower - now that's a challenge.

As for being a lesbian, what has people's sexuality got to do with whether you lead or follow. Does that mean that lesbians can only lead and gay men should therefore be followers makes me really :angry: :banghead:

Trousers
29th-April-2010, 12:39 PM
Personally DT I think you'll make a good man! :lol:

You have more balls than a lot on the scene.

Don't let it get you down - I'm 46 and at work I still get treated like I'm the office junior - Sonny, Young man etc
People have fixed ways of thinking about some things

Amir
29th-April-2010, 01:00 PM
Stuff....

To me this seems like an excellent way to quickly identify the idiots in the room which you're better off avoiding anyway. To quote our esteemed leader, what a bunch of bigots!!!

jiveclone
29th-April-2010, 01:01 PM
Does that mean that lesbians can only lead and gay men should therefore be followers makes me really :angry: :banghead:

Presumably gay men are only expected to follow if they have a bandanna hanging out of their right pocket?

David Bailey
29th-April-2010, 01:21 PM
I’ve gotta say, the amount of resistance I’ve received from the teachers and some of the men has been bordering on unacceptable.
I've gotta say, you're learning in the wrong dance form. And possibly in the wrong venue.

I spent 2 hours on Sunday being a follow, and regularly teach and learn role-reverse, in Tango; no-one bats an eye. I and they are there to learn, not to make dumbass comments about sexuality.

That said, I'd probably never dance as a follow in a milonga.

Dreadful Scathe
29th-April-2010, 01:31 PM
it appears you go to the neanderthal knuckle dragging class, where is this so i dont go there ? :)

Andy McGregor
29th-April-2010, 02:08 PM
Even the organiser is looking at me with suspicion. Gav thinks the organiser suspects I’m using his classes to learn to lead so I can be a dance teacher elsewhere. I’m not, but even if I was, what difference does it make?

I don’t want to give up learning to lead. I’m really enjoying it, but I’m starting to get the hump with the ignorant comments. Hopefully they’ll stop when they realise I’m not giving up trying.I actively encourage the women to learn to lead in the lessons, especially in the beginners. We've usually got two or three ladies leading in most of our beginners lessons. And I still say "guys on the same side as me". Saying leaders would mean I have to change all my scripts - as in "guys go through, girls go through". Not only would I have to remember to make the change, the extra syllable changes the cadence. I usually get around this by saying the ladies are welcome to be honourary guys.

Unfortunately I have learnt from experience that guys must not learn to follow in the lessons as it really does upset a high proportion of the guys.

One thing I would suggest is that you don't stand at the very front of any of the rows. It's confusing for the teacher as it's not immediately obvious that everyone is in the right place after "guys on the same side as me".

The hardest thing you will need to learn is to adjust your footwork. If you don't you will be on the right foot at the same time as your partner and this can lead to problems, especially in the closed hold. This doesn't happen with most guys who follow a lady lead as you're both on the wrong foot and it works like a couple dancing in a mirror.

philsmove
29th-April-2010, 02:19 PM
That said, I'd probably never dance as a follow in a milonga.
You must try it
its very relaxing not having to navigate

Trouble
29th-April-2010, 02:26 PM
You must try it
its very relaxing not having to navigate

Mr Bailey is definately NOT a follower. :D

if you danced with him as a follower, you would know what i mean !

todd
29th-April-2010, 02:40 PM
...but I’m starting to get the hump with the ignorant comments...

Put blunty - I wouldn't go to that venue. I hope you have an alternative option.

I tend to encourage everyone to swap around and play with reverse roles as it really helps develop a stronger level of consideration for each others role.

Like Any said - getting "guys" to be followers in an actual lesson is a no-no as too many other "guys" would be uncomfortable with this. But, choosing the moments carefully, it can be done.

And like rtwwpad said - learning each both roles can lead (no pun intended) to games of swapping and stealing the lead from each other during a dance - great fun!

We have ladies leading ladies, ladies leading men, men leading men... Oh, and, get this - men leading ladies..!!! And no body gets the hump over any of it. Not even when a man leads a lady..!!!

Andy McGregor
29th-April-2010, 03:02 PM
Oh, and, get this - men leading ladies..!!! And no body gets the hump over any of it. Not even when a man leads a lady..!!!And I once saw a man who danced with his wife!

todd
29th-April-2010, 03:37 PM
And I once saw a man who danced with his wife!
:lol:

emmylou25
29th-April-2010, 04:31 PM
Sounds like a nightmare venue.

Our venues tend to have a few ladies leading (mostly taxis), usually to even up numbers. I've never heard of anyone complaining out loud about ladies leading and most people are relieved they don't have to sit out and queue. However, I know that if there were men over I'd either swap and be a follower or sit out as generally I'm helping out rather than learning so i can be a great leader, but some of the younger girls who want to learn to lead their friends always lead whether it's men over or not, and it seems to be accepted.

I've never known any females learning to lead going to the beginner review class - so I don't know how the beginners would find that, although i don't see that it would make much of a problem.

I say stick with it - you've got as much right as anyone else to learn to lead, and let's face it, you'll probably end up a better leader than a lot of the men anyway...or that's generally what I get told when the class rotation is happening. Helps that females have a followers perspective of what sort of lead works for other followers. Men can often only guess whether they're giving too much or too little.

mooncalf
29th-April-2010, 04:56 PM
People can call me what they like, I know what I am.

David Bailey
29th-April-2010, 05:12 PM
You must try it
its very relaxing not having to navigate

I have tried it.

I enjoy leading more.

I do what I enjoy.


Mr Bailey is definately NOT a follower. :D
TJMOSTT

rubyred
29th-April-2010, 05:49 PM
Stick your ground DT and don't let ingnorant people push you off the dance floor. Please give me a dance when I next see you on the dance floor.:flower:

cederic
29th-April-2010, 07:39 PM
Unfortunately I have learnt from experience that guys must not learn to follow in the lessons as it really does upset a high proportion of the guys.


As a guy that's curious about what it's like to follow (and hopes that finding out would improve his leading) that's the biggest barrier. Where/how can a man learn to follow?

The Manchester class I go to on Wednesdays usually has at least one, sometimes up to 4-5 ladies leading, so it's never seen as unusual and I've never heard anybody complain about it, and I've seen ladies leading at all the venues I've visited (erm, all four of them) so to me it's a "normal" thing.

Men following seems far more rare, and tends to only be the 'good' dancers, and in freestyle. I've never seen a man following in classes, and haven't seen two men dancing together yet (except on Youtube - I think it was Jordan and Ben doing WCS).

frodo
29th-April-2010, 08:33 PM
So, I’m learning to lead, or as they continually annoyingly say at my local class I’m learning to be a man.

I’ve gotta say, the amount of resistance I’ve received from the teachers and some of the men has been bordering on unacceptable. Funnily enough, the women I’m dancing with seem perfectly fine with it and some have said I’m the best man in the room. (I think that’s supposed to be a compliment). :confused:

...

Even the organiser is looking at me with suspicion. Gav thinks the organiser suspects I’m using his classes to learn to lead so I can be a dance teacher elsewhere. I’m not, but even if I was, what difference does it make?

I don’t want to give up learning to lead. I’m really enjoying it, but I’m starting to get the hump with the ignorant comments. Hopefully they’ll stop when they realise I’m not giving up trying.So you learning to lead at that venue may be good for you but bad news for other people at that venue.

Just because it is bad news for others doesn't mean they're bigoted, neanderthal or ignorant.

Why not simply go elsewhere where it causes others less difficulties, or choose a day where it is less bad news for others (for example when there are ladies over), rather than getting the hump.

jim
29th-April-2010, 08:53 PM
I've gotta say, you're learning in the wrong dance form. And possibly in the wrong venue.

I spent 2 hours on Sunday being a follow, and regularly teach and learn role-reverse, in Tango; no-one bats an eye. I and they are there to learn, not to make dumbass comments about sexuality.

That said, I'd probably never dance as a follow in a milonga.

I agree with this. People are always learning the other role in tango. I think it's very good for your dancing.

However. I have no problem with teachers calling the leads men and followers ladies.

I don't think people should have to change everything they do and say to accomodate the minority.

One of my tango teachers calls all the leads 'lads', even though he'll ask you to demonstrate the move on him and then turn you round and show you how your doing it wrong.

And also my female ballroom teacher; when teaching as a man always used to say 'and guy's (referring to herself) this is our bit'.

Apart from that good luck.

Gav
29th-April-2010, 08:53 PM
So you learning to lead at that venue may be good for you but bad news for other people at that venue.

Just because it is bad news for others doesn't mean they're bigoted, neanderthal or ignorant.

Why not simply go elsewhere where it causes others less difficulties, or choose a day where it is less bad news for others (for example when there are ladies over), rather than getting the hump.

That's closed-minded in itself!

We've all paid our money, so as long as we don't break any rules we can do what we like, including choosing who we dance with; however, that doesn't give anyone the right to be rude or stroppy just because someone is doing things differently to them.

jim
29th-April-2010, 09:04 PM
I've never seen a man following in classes, and haven't seen two men dancing together yet (except on Youtube - I think it was Jordan and Ben doing WCS).

You've never seen two guys dancing together as erotically as possible, in order to freak each other out.:eek::lol: You haven't lived. It's totally gross.

frodo
29th-April-2010, 10:02 PM
That's closed-minded in itself!Really ?


We've all paid our money, so as long as we don't break any rules we can do what we like, including choosing who we dance with; however, that doesn't give anyone the right to be rude or stroppy just because someone is doing things differently to them.Well it doesn't justify references to sexual preferences. Stroppy is debatable.


You've never seen two guys dancing together as erotically as possible, in order to freak each other out.:eek::lol: You haven't lived. It's totally gross.
No rules against this. After all they've paid their money.

Dreadful Scathe
29th-April-2010, 11:25 PM
Really ?.

Of course it is.

are you missing the point? if DT wants to lead in a class where both lead and follow are taught, she has every right to have a bit of a moan when she gets the spanish bleedin' inquisition because of it.

I think neanderthal is fair for that guy that went off in the huff. :)

Andy McGregor
30th-April-2010, 12:14 AM
I think neanderthal is fair for that guy that went off in the huff. :)Unfortunately we all have a cave dweller hidden in there somewhere. Even the women!

I wouldn't react badly if a woman wanted to lead. We had a woman join in and lead in tonight's lesson and I was delighted that we went down from 3 women over to 1 woman over.

However, I'd actually stop a man from rotating with the women and learning to follow in my group lesson. This makes me sexist because I treat men and women differently. I'd say my reaction to a man lining up with the women would be more extreme than DT has experienced.

The reason I'd react this way is because I'd run the risk of guys falling out in the lesson. I've seen it in the past in Brighton and guys were actually threatened "try to dance with me and I'll knock your block off" - very caveman! And others did the maths and dropped out rather than dance with another man.

So my reaction isn't based on me being sexist, it's based on experience and common sense.

Having said all that, earlier tonight I was asked to teach a guy to follow and was delighted to help - I even did a lift with him, just to prove I'm manly :wink:

emmylou25
30th-April-2010, 09:53 AM
As a guy that's curious about what it's like to follow (and hopes that finding out would improve his leading) that's the biggest barrier. Where/how can a man learn to follow?


Men following in a class is much more likely to cause uproar than ladies leading, and personally I'd get a bit peeved if there weren't enough men to go round all the ladies, which then wasn't helped further by a man following (my view would be the same if ladies were leading when there were men over - makes common sense to balance out the numbers as much as possible).

What i've seen when men want to follow is that generally they'll either switch roles with their OH so they teach each other the reverse role (in freestyle), or they'll ask a female leader to lead them. One guy I know was advised to learn to follow to help his styling (not sure how it would help with that, but can be good from an improving the lead aspect), so asked me to help him do the class as a fixed couple with him following. I was happy to do that, we stayed out of the way of the class, and because it's not man on man, people who may have been offended wouldn't have been impacted, and probably wouldn't have noticed.

So I'd say, find a female lead if you want to learn to follow in a class situation.

Phil_dB
30th-April-2010, 11:14 AM
Men following in a class is much more likely to cause uproar than ladies leading, and personally I'd get a bit peeved if there weren't enough men to go round all the ladies, which then wasn't helped further by a man following (my view would be the same if ladies were leading when there were men over - makes common sense to balance out the numbers as much as possible).

What i've seen when men want to follow is that generally they'll either switch roles with their OH so they teach each other the reverse role (in freestyle), or they'll ask a female leader to lead them.

Yes, that's the only times when i've followed in MJ

I'd love to spend an entire evening as an MJ Follower, class & freestyle , - just to see what life is like from the other side, - and experience for myself what i've heard so much about...


I've only recently started wcs, but in this short amount of time i've wcs danced with 5x as many men as I have in my year and a half doing MJ. No-one seems to care, - I certainly dont ("and i'm straight as an arrow, mate") I guess it's the difference in attitude between people who love dance, & people who are purely out for social reasons. Saying that, - there's nothing wrong with being social with other blokes.

I was thankful the other night when a couple of the men could, and were willing to follow during a class,... else it would've meant TWO men on"!!! ... **** that !!!! :rofl:

Which leads me to another babbling observation, - I think women get to know other women more easily because of the time they spend queuing in class when outside the rotation, - men don't have to wait very often, and many spend their freestyle time freestyling, - so don't get to know other blokes as well as the women get to know other women. See girls, every cloud & all that!

MarkW
30th-April-2010, 11:45 AM
...

Which leads me to another babbling observation, - I think women get to know other women more easily because of the time they spend queuing in class when outside the rotation, - men don't have to wait very often, and many spend their freestyle time freestyling, - so don't get to know other blokes as well as the women get to know other women. See girls, every cloud & all that!

And I think they chat more during the freestyle parts of the evening as well, particularly if there are women over. I have also noticed that the women tend to know each other a bit better than the the men know each other. (Some women have said in passing that they know the men better than the women though.) It's probably a combination of a slightly greater tendency for women to chat than men combined with more opportunity for women to chat together when there are women over. If two men are chatting and there's women over it normally doesn't take long for a woman to walk over and break up the boy on boy action.

Anyway ... back on topic so as not to incur the wrath of DT :nice: ... just about everywhere I've danced in the last ten years it has been quite normal to see women leading. I taxi and have had two women in total doing the leading in the review over the years - so that's a very small number but it has happened. It wasn't an issue for me or anyone else even when one week there were men over in the review session - the lady in question still did the leading and the men moved on quite happily.

So, I think DT has found an atypical venue.

daveb9000
30th-April-2010, 11:59 AM
During the Chistmas period not long after I started Ceroc our regular class night did a 'fun class' where ALL the women lead and ALL the men followed, this was really good fun (especially as I won the prize for being the best 'lady-boy' :) ) - maybe it's something that could be done more often.

Double Trouble
30th-April-2010, 12:48 PM
choose a day where it is less bad news for others (for example when there are ladies over)


1. I don't have a crystal ball so I couldn't possibly chose a day when I know whether there will be ladies over or not.

2. The both times there have been men over, there have been late comers joining in and on both occasions ended up being ladies over in the end. Would you suggest that I start off as a follower and change over to leading if and when more ladies turn up and join in?

3. I asked permission from the organiser to learn to lead and he didn't object, so as far as I'm concerned, I've paid my 8 quid and I can lead if I want.

4. It's "bad news" for a few blokes and the demonstrators who have to switch off auto pilot once in a while and rotate the men, but everyone else, in particular the ladies are very positive and encouraging about it.

rtwwpad
30th-April-2010, 01:09 PM
I started writing this and realised it sounds a bit strange but one of the things I like about having to follow when my wife leads is I get to do all the hijacks she normally pulls on me back to her. A dish best served cold, when she's not expecting it.

First move push off's, shoulder slide stop and blocks, basket duck unders.... (where's the evil grinning smiley? )

Down our way (Twyford, Newbury - there are a lot of female taxi's who dance male and female parts.). Usually both sets of taxi's are quite happy to dance both parts if you ask us (after our time with the beginners finishes).

Andy McGregor
30th-April-2010, 01:11 PM
I've paid my 8 quid and I can lead if I want.Eight quid! For that you can have sex with me* :awe:

*That does mean I'd be getting paid at the rate of £9,600 an hour :whistle:

Prian
30th-April-2010, 02:00 PM
So, I’m learning to lead, or as they continually annoyingly say at my local class I’m learning to be a man.

I’ve gotta say, the amount of resistance I’ve received from the teachers and some of the men has been bordering on unacceptable. Funnily enough, the women I’m dancing with seem perfectly fine with it and some have said I’m the best man in the room. (I think that’s supposed to be a compliment). :confused:

To name a few, these are some of the comments I’ve received from teachers and men.

Week 1

Male demonstrator “Why are you learning to be a man?”
Me “Because I’m bored of following and wanted to learn something new…by the way, I’m not learning to be a man, I’m learning to lead”
Male demonstrator “Of course you do realise that all the women in the room think you’re a raving lesbian”
Me “Have any of the women actually said that?”
Male demonstrator “No, I just know that’s what they will be thinking” :rolleyes:

Week 2

Female Demonstrator “You’re on the wrong side”
Me “No I’m learning to lead”
Female demonstrator “Why do you want to be a man? If you lead they’ll be men over and they’ll get all confused”
Followed by unnecessary tutting and huffing as she has to move ONE man round. :angry:

Week 3

Men over again so I’m sitting down waiting for the rotation to take my turn as a lead. A man comes over and offers me his hand, thinking I’m a follower waiting for a leader.

Me “It’s men over, not women, I’m leading”
Man “Well get up then and then you won’t have to be a man, you can be a woman”
Me “No thanks, I’m learning to lead, you’ll have to join me in the queue”
Man looks at me with disgust “Oh suit your bloody self then” and sods off to the bar outraged that for the first time in years there are men over and refuses to join in. :really:


Even the organiser is looking at me with suspicion. Gav thinks the organiser suspects I’m using his classes to learn to lead so I can be a dance teacher elsewhere. I’m not, but even if I was, what difference does it make?

I don’t want to give up learning to lead. I’m really enjoying it, but I’m starting to get the hump with the ignorant comments. Hopefully they’ll stop when they realise I’m not giving up trying.
If a man is lead by a woman does that make him a raving poof?

Andy McGregor
30th-April-2010, 02:05 PM
If a man is lead by a woman does that make him a raving poof?That question must be rhetorical. All men who dance are raving poofs.

Real men play Rugby to prove they are not raving poofs, a game where they find a cold, wet field, jam their heads between the hips of other guys and shove their shoulders against their butt cheeks. And to remove any doubt about them being poofs they shower together, drink and sing together and go home too drunk to have sex with a woman.

Gav
30th-April-2010, 02:06 PM
If a man is lead by a woman does that make him a raving poof?

Yes it does. :na:
Any more questions?

philsmove
30th-April-2010, 02:10 PM
Ceroc 10 Commandments
The ten most important things you should know when attending your first Ceroc night

1. You don¹t need to come with a partner.
2. It doesn¹t matter if you miss a week.
3. The more you dance in the freestyle the quicker you learn.
4. The women ask the men to dance as much as the men ask the women.
5. For fast track learning, try a 4-hour weekend workshop.
6. No Ceroc venue allows you to bring in your own drink.
7. Saying no to someone when they ask you to dance is unusual at Ceroc.
8. Teachers are very approachable and happy to go through the routine with you.
9. It usually takes about 6 beginner's classes before you'll feel comfortable in the Intermediate class.
10. Oh Yerr, the man leads and the lady follows

Double Trouble
30th-April-2010, 02:14 PM
Ceroc 10 Commandments

I don't go to Ceroc classes. My local venue is an independent. :na:

philsmove
30th-April-2010, 03:07 PM
I don't go to Ceroc classes. My local venue is an independent. :na:
To be honest I have never seen the tenth commandment enforced in any Ceroc or Independent venue

At my class, ladies often lead in classes and men often follow in the freestyle

I have only lead a man once in a class, that was Sherif, of Leroc UK, when was doing his teacher exam

robd
30th-April-2010, 03:31 PM
And you really needed to quote the whole of DT's post to ask that Prian? :doh:

One
30th-April-2010, 04:34 PM
And you really needed to quote the whole of DT's post to ask that Prian? :doh:

I quite agree!!! It's totally ruined my weekend that quote, totally unnecessary not to mention the complete disregard for hard drive space, internet bandwidth, .. I could go on.

Robd, - you really should be promoted to moderator

Prian
30th-April-2010, 06:01 PM
DT you said "don't quote it all." Sorry, but I don't know how to split the passages of text up into smaller ones

jim
30th-April-2010, 06:44 PM
one of the things I like about having to follow when my wife leads is I get to do all the hijacks she normally pulls on me back to her. A dish best served cold, when she's not expecting it.

First move push off's, shoulder slide stop and blocks, basket duck unders.... (where's the evil grinning smiley? )

I almost rep-ed you, but you really shouldn't sink to their level. :wink:

Double Trouble
30th-April-2010, 07:27 PM
DT you said "don't quote it all." Sorry, but I don't know how to split the passages of text up into smaller ones

I recall I got some neg rep from someone when I first started on the forum for quoting a whole post when I didn't need to. I too didn't know how to edit a quote for the purpose of a reply and didn't realise there was "forum etiquette" to adhere to. I'll PM you. :friend:

Prian
30th-April-2010, 08:07 PM
Anyway back on thread ish. I have been led by a guy, on stage in a Ceroc class in front of a church full of Charismatic Christian Cerocers.

Interesting.

Not the being led or dancing with a guy (I must stress not a regular occurance), but the very mixed reactions. Though most of the negative remarks did come from the newer members

David Bailey
3rd-May-2010, 11:39 PM
That said, I'd probably never dance as a follow in a milonga.
Ironically, I did this on Saturday.

But that was in Birmingham so doesn't count.

DD+
4th-May-2010, 10:49 AM
I remember how horrid it was with some follows in the line up looking at you as if to say are you a lesbian i dont want to hold your hand! And men asking why are you here in the line up - "ladies" should queue up over there!
I stuck with it and found some venues better than other - so please stick with it and dont give in to the miserable gits - you've paid your money so you can lead or follow:wink:

Good luck and look forward to a dance soon :awe:

Andy McGregor
4th-May-2010, 11:12 AM
- you've paid your money so you can lead or follow:wink:Although I agree with ladies leading in particular. I disagree in general with people who say 'I've paid my money can do what I want'. You have to comply with the terms of admission. You must comply if those terms of admission say that you can't do something, for instance, drops.

Double Trouble
4th-May-2010, 11:19 AM
I disagree in general with people who say 'I've paid my money can do what I want'.

Bugger! I was planning on turning up tonight to continue learning to lead in a Lime green G-String and 2 Vauxhall Astra hub caps fashioned into a bikini top. :waycool:

Gerry
4th-May-2010, 11:26 AM
Although I agree with ladies leading in particular. I disagree in general with people who say 'I've paid my money can do what I want'. You have to comply with the terms of admission. You must comply if those terms of admission say that you can't do something, for instance, drops.

Ok but does it say a man can't learn to follow or a lady can't lead:banghead:

I have on a number of occassions been a follower in a WCS class, alot of the guys who know me well still showed a body language which was I don't want to lead you. I have never had anyone drop out because they were about to lead me in the lesson.

Andy McGregor
4th-May-2010, 11:34 AM
Bugger! I was planning on turning up tonight to continue learning to lead in a Lime green G-String and 2 Vauxhall Astra hub caps fashioned into a bikini top. :waycool:I think the terms and conditions state that G-strings must be orange and hub caps must come from cars built before 1999 - otherwise you can go ahead with your plan :waycool:

MarkW
4th-May-2010, 11:37 AM
Although I agree with ladies leading in particular. I disagree in general with people who say 'I've paid my money can do what I want'. You have to comply with the terms of admission. You must comply if those terms of admission say that you can't do something, for instance, drops.

My funniest experience of consumer power was when giving the review class in the days when there were four moves rather than three. Occasionally it was a squish getting all four moves in and one time I said "It's looking like we may not get to review the fourth move but I hope that everyone is OK with spending time getting happy with the first three." To which the lady I had just danced the third move with said "Oh no. I've paid my £7 and I'm expecting you to take me all the way." :eek: :lol:

She did mean it as a joke. Strangely, after I stopped laughing, I felt flattered rather than cheap. Must be a self-esteem issue :nice:

Andy McGregor
4th-May-2010, 11:37 AM
I have on a number of occassions been a follower in a WCS class, alot of the guys who know me well still showed a body language which was I don't want to lead you. I have never had anyone drop out because they were about to lead me in the lesson.My guess is that peer group pressure was brought to bear. Those guys didn't want to lead another guy but thought it was acceptable at the class and didn't want to make a fuss. A bit like going topless in St Tropez - they didn't want to be the only one wearing a bikini top!

Andy McGregor
4th-May-2010, 11:42 AM
when giving the review class in the days when there were four moves rather than three. Are there many classes that teach 3 moves in the beginners?

Speaking for myself I still teach 4 moves but do so in 3 teaches. I combine the shortest move with the one before or after and teach as if it were one move. I still name both moves but take them both forward together.

Lou
4th-May-2010, 12:32 PM
Male demonstrator “Of course you do realise that all the women in the room think you’re a raving lesbian”


Female demonstrator “Why do you want to be a man? If you lead they’ll be men over and they’ll get all confused”
Followed by unnecessary tutting and huffing as she has to move ONE man round. :angry:


Man looks at me with disgust “Oh suit your bloody self then” and sods off to the bar outraged that for the first time in years there are men over and refuses to join in. :really:


it appears you go to the neanderthal knuckle dragging class, where is this so i dont go there ? :)

This is Cheshunt, yes? I know it's wrong & contrary, but it sounds so wonderfully dreadful, I'm really tempted to go tonight to see it in all its glory for myself! :whistle:

DD+
4th-May-2010, 01:03 PM
Although I agree with ladies leading in particular. I disagree in general with people who say 'I've paid my money can do what I want'. You have to comply with the terms of admission. You must comply if those terms of admission say that you can't do something, for instance, drops.

For sure Andy - thats why i stated "you can lead or follow" :wink: There are some men out there that i would personally choose to lead over some ladies.
We always competed in Ceroc X style categories at champs and have always made the final - I lead and Paul Follows :awe:

Andy McGregor
4th-May-2010, 01:13 PM
This is Cheshunt, yes? I know it's wrong & contrary, but it sounds so wonderfully dreadful, I'm really tempted to go tonight to see it in all its glory for myself! :whistle:I'd love to come too. However, I run my own class on a Tuesday and a Thursday when the Cheshunt class is running.

I notice that there's also two Fridays a month in Harlow run by the same people. Fancy a Funky Forum Friday? We could all agree on a particular Friday, agree on a dress code, all arrive at the same time and ...

.. I'm not sure there are any other reasons, but we could, just possibly, dance all night.

Now, what to wear? I do like nautical and have plenty of sailors outfits. I'm never wearing bondage again after I snapped my hamstring :sick: Medical sounds like fun. Sportswear is easy - bagsy GD. Or perhaps something really subtle and clever ...

.. someone else will have to think of that.

It's one hour 40 mins away from Brighton. Probably longer on a Friday. Still, it would be worth it just to be led by Double Trouble :flower:

Lou
4th-May-2010, 01:31 PM
Now, what to wear?
Something sparkly, dear Andy!


It's one hour 40 mins away from Brighton. Probably longer on a Friday. Still, it would be worth it just to be led by Double Trouble :flower:
Totally! :clap: This world needs a funky forum Friday.

(btw... just found out that they're Federation. I have to go now!)

Lory
4th-May-2010, 01:37 PM
I quite agree!!! It's totally ruined my weekend that quote, :lol:


Robd, - you really should be promoted to moderator:what:

Double Trouble
4th-May-2010, 01:38 PM
Oh please do all come. Next Tuesday they have their *Birthday Party. It's floaty dresses and smart dress so Andy, you could wear that floaty pink number I know you love so much.

*Hurry and get your ticket...there's only 462 tickets left. :D

Maxine
4th-May-2010, 01:43 PM
I remember how horrid it was with some follows in the line up looking at you as if to say are you a lesbian i dont want to hold your hand! And men asking why are you here in the line up - "ladies" should queue up over there!
I stuck with it and found some venues better than other - so please stick with it and dont give in to the miserable gits - you've paid your money so you can lead or follow:wink:




Where do you go that is more welcoming for female leads? JayJay and myself are considering entering the Roc Vets section at next year’s Champs but I really need to brush up on my intermediate leading.

Alternatively could always join DT on Thursday and Pee them off more:devil:

Double Trouble
4th-May-2010, 01:44 PM
Still, it would be worth it just to be led by Double Trouble :flower:

As long as you don't mind 57 Arm Jives and a half arsed First Move, you'll be golden. :)

Trouble
4th-May-2010, 01:45 PM
For sure Andy - thats why i stated "you can lead or follow" :wink: There are some men out there that i would personally choose to lead over some ladies.
We always competed in Ceroc X style categories at champs and have always made the final - I lead and Paul Follows :awe:

DD, you are one of the best female leads i know. :awe:

I look forward to my sister taking me on the dance floor, i also look forward to hearing the next installment of "cheshunt - the homophoboldies dance nite Part 11" :popcorn:

Lory
4th-May-2010, 02:08 PM
57 Arm Jives and a half arsed First Move, :)
I took my sister to Berko on Sunday and she begged me to lead her, to get her warmed up... and I did your routine as above :D

She said, (in her 5 lesson wisdom) that I was fantastic and so much easier to follow than most of the men at her local venue...... Hmm, I wonder why? :innocent::lol:

DD+
4th-May-2010, 02:13 PM
Where do you go that is more welcoming for female leads? JayJay and myself are considering entering the Roc Vets section at next year’s Champs but I really need to brush up on my intermediate leading.

I learnt to Dance in Kent and at the time i danced at Shorne and Park Langley which is where i also started to lead. Once they got used to seeing me in the line up all was good. The teacher even used to ask me to help out if there we loads of ladies over :nice:

Prian
4th-May-2010, 02:45 PM
It is very sad, but I have never danced at a venue outside London (except Bognor weekends). But in all my time I have never known a class that had less than 5 or 6 ladies leading or that could lead at any given time. To my mind it is a very common site. Never heard a negative thing said. Hard to understand why there is still so much hostility.

Prian

Andy McGregor
4th-May-2010, 02:50 PM
As long as you don't mind 57 Arm Jives and a half arsed First Move, you'll be golden. :)I won't mind what you do if you're wearing something sparkly and porn-star shoes. Do you mind if I back-lead a bit?

rtwwpad
4th-May-2010, 03:17 PM
I can just imagine the look on their faces. 5-6 guys in the line as ladies and 5-6 women as leads. You'll drive them all to drink you know. I imagine barring orders will be rapidly enforced.

Maxine
4th-May-2010, 06:53 PM
I learnt to Dance in Kent and at the time i danced at Shorne and Park Langley which is where i also started to lead. Once they got used to seeing me in the line up all was good. The teacher even used to ask me to help out if there we loads of ladies over :nice:

Is Shorne the Inn on the Lake?

Or I could go to Romford on a Wednesday where I used to Taxi, Karen and Glen were always happy to have me lead, might give both a go over the next few months

DD+
4th-May-2010, 07:50 PM
Is Shorne the Inn on the Lake?

Or I could go to Romford on a Wednesday where I used to Taxi, Karen and Glen were always happy to have me lead, might give both a go over the next few months

We go to Romford quite regularly - I doubt Karen will be around much as her baby is due in 3 weeks and 4 days but they always need more guys there :awe:
Shorne is indeed the Inn on the Lake:nice:

MarkW
4th-May-2010, 08:30 PM
... JayJay and myself are considering entering the Roc Vets section at next year’s Champs but I really need to brush up on my intermediate leading.

...

That would be great :waycool:

I should warn you that the standard in that competition is incredibly high :wink:

Double Trouble
4th-May-2010, 11:48 PM
So, it was week 4 of my leading journey tonight. I thought at one point the demonstrator was going to have a nervous breakdown. Men and women kept turning up and joining in the beginners lesson so every rotation there seemed to be either men over, women over, or both! I got the blame of course....

Bloke "Of course you do realise this is all your fault, insisting on being a man"
Me "I've paid my money, I'll lead if I want"
Bloke "You don't even look like a man"
Me "I've got more balls than you, Love" :D

There was a new face at Cheshunt tonight. A mysterious lady who made me feel like I might actually be able to get the hang of this leading lark. Thanks for all the dances Lou...lovely to meet you and I hope you can make it to Cheshunt again (I need the practice) :o

Prian
5th-May-2010, 04:29 AM
:rofl::rofl::cheers::D:clap:

Superb DT

Lory
5th-May-2010, 07:49 AM
A mysterious lady ~snip~ Thanks for all the dances Lou...
DT, its a well known fact (on this forum) that Lou is a man :whistle::D

robd
5th-May-2010, 10:54 AM
Robd, - you really should be promoted to moderator

That would be a promotion? :rolleyes:

Andy McGregor
5th-May-2010, 12:02 PM
That would be a promotion? :rolleyes:I don't think so. It would be like working behind the bar at your local. Somebody's got to serve the drinks, but I don't want to do it tonight because it's a quiz night.

Maxine
5th-May-2010, 01:56 PM
That would be great :waycool:

I should warn you that the standard in that competition is incredibly high :wink:

You are so right MarkW, but JayJay is a briliiant follower so it's me that needs to put in most of the work. My game plan is: First of all doing 5k run in July (one of the nurses at work got me roped into that), but training for that should improve my stamina, go to weekly lessons as a lead and do some workshops at weekenders with JayJay, lastly try not to take it too seriously and have fun

You were brilliant on Sunday by the way :respect:, I did write a long review but stupidly did it straight on the forum instead of cut and paste - result timed out and when I logged on again, all my review had gone:tears:. Went out and had fun instead of rewriting

Lou
5th-May-2010, 02:04 PM
DT, its a well known fact (on this forum) that Lou is a man :whistle::D

; ) Ah! That'll probably be why I don't get accused of being a raging raving lesbian!

I hope DT continues with her journey to become a lead as it was a pleasure. Thanks for the dances, dearheart! I'll have to do a review of the night when I get back on the pc.

DJ Mike
5th-May-2010, 02:15 PM
Can't believe there are venues that are so anti-role reversal. The venues around me frequently have women learning to lead, mostly to address the constant imbalance we have with a shortage of men. Heck, even on nights where the balance is pretty equal, women still lead. Heck, I've seen a couple of women who lead double-trouble dances.

And the hilarity when two of the guys dance together and one tries to lead the other... priceless! Some of them are pretty good, to their credit!

So yes, if you're finding such opposition at your venue, it's time to start searching for a better venue. That surely isn't the norm??

Andy McGregor
5th-May-2010, 02:33 PM
; ) Ah! That'll probably be why I don't get accused of being a raging raving lesbian!I wish I could say the same :whistle:

Prian
5th-May-2010, 03:01 PM
Can't believe there are venues that are so anti-role reversal. The venues around me frequently have women learning to lead, mostly to address the constant imbalance we have with a shortage of men. Heck, even on nights where the balance is pretty equal, women still lead. Heck, I've seen a couple of women who lead double-trouble dances.

And the hilarity when two of the guys dance together and one tries to lead the other... priceless! Some of them are pretty good, to their credit!

So yes, if you're finding such opposition at your venue, it's time to start searching for a better venue. That surely isn't the norm??
I totally agree Mike.

In fact as the girls learn to lead their following actually improves and vice versa when men learn to follow their leading improves.

As for men dancing with men, I have done it a few times. Mostly with one James Crofts (now a teacher I believe), where i would lead and we would include a "half tumble." We were also lead in double trouble with his wife.

Trouble
5th-May-2010, 03:08 PM
Heck, even on nights where the balance is pretty equal, women still lead. Heck, I've seen a couple of women who lead double-trouble dances.


So yes, if you're finding such opposition at your venue, it's time to start searching for a better venue. That surely isn't the norm??

Heck DJM - why should she find somewhere else. Let them gripe, moan and be miserable..... My sister enjoys seeing them suck lemons more trust me. :D

Double Trouble
5th-May-2010, 03:15 PM
My sister enjoys seeing them suck lemons more trust me. :D

I see myself more as a crusader fighting against the oppresive Cheshunt regime. :waycool:

Although it does make me snigger to see all the lemon sucking going on. :innocent:

Andy McGregor
5th-May-2010, 04:05 PM
I notice that there's also two Fridays a month in Harlow run by the same people. Fancy a Funky Forum Friday? We could all agree on a particular Friday, agree on a dress code, all arrive at the same time and ...

.. I'm not sure there are any other reasons, but we could, just possibly, dance all night.

Now, what to wear? I do like nautical and have plenty of sailors outfits. I'm never wearing bondage again after I snapped my hamstring :sick: Medical sounds like fun. Sportswear is easy - bagsy GD. Or perhaps something really subtle and clever ...

.. someone else will have to think of that.

It's one hour 40 mins away from Brighton. Probably longer on a Friday. Still, it would be worth it just to be led by Double Trouble :flower:


Something sparkly, dear Andy!


Totally! :clap: This world needs a funky forum Friday.

I've looked at their website and created a thread with a poll. Take a look here. (http://forum.cerocscotland.com/showthread.php?t=19763)

Barry Shnikov
8th-May-2010, 11:14 AM
My funniest experience of consumer power was when giving the review class in the days when there were four moves rather than three.
Back where I were a-learnin' to jive, Mick and Phil at Cambridge (Mondays and Wednesday nights) were both perfectly capable of teaching four moves in 40 minutes AND making sure we learnt etiquette, style, alternatives (for dips, e.g.), and basic elements, as well as floor craft (not banging in to other dancers), and leading tips for male beginners. Plus, they both had stage presence in bucket loads. (Good job, really, as it was only 12" above the dance floor.)

It wasn't until I moved away and went to other dance classes all over the country that I found other teachers who could hardly manage three moves in 50 minutes, let alone teaching style as well.

Prian
8th-May-2010, 11:21 AM
Are three moves really all that is taught now? Is that beginners or intermediate or both?

I really have been out of the scene for a while.

I only ever knew 3 moves to be taught in the intermediate class and then only if things were running late or combination moves were included.

hafdhgdfa
28th-January-2011, 01:17 PM
However, I'd actually stop a man from rotating with the women and learning to follow in my group lesson. This makes me sexist because I treat men and women differently. I'd say my reaction to a man lining up with the women would be more extreme than DT has experienced.

The reason I'd react this way is because I'd run the risk of guys falling out in the lesson. I've seen it in the past in Brighton and guys were actually threatened "try to dance with me and I'll knock your block off" - very caveman! And others did the maths and dropped out rather than dance with another man.

So my reaction isn't based on me being sexist, it's based on experience and common sense.


Imagine a pub landlord puts up a 'no poofs' sign.
"I've got nothing against the gays personally, it's just that all my customers are homophobic. If I let gays in here the customers would threaten to knock their blocks off. So my reaction isn't based on me being homophobic, it's based on experience and common sense."

I don't think that would stand up in court, and I think you are opening yourself up to lawsuits.

Most gay men wouldn't want to cause a fuss and so would either stick to same-sex classes or would dance as leads. But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.

I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment. It may not be actually enforced but it is on all their printed literature.

whitetiger1518
28th-January-2011, 01:59 PM
I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment. It may not be actually enforced but it is on all their printed literature.

Might be a bit hard to sue - certainly at any classes that I dance at - more than half the ladies I know are brilliant leaders and followers, and for that matter I don't think Franck ever actually says men and women, just leads and follows.

Cheers WT

David Bailey
28th-January-2011, 04:33 PM
But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.
I can't see it, really. It's not discrimination if gender is an inherent part of the "job spec".


I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment.
I'm amazed that no-one's sued Ceroc for infringement of the trades description act - have they seen the average quality of following from ladies at a Ceroc night? :D

By the way, welcome to the forum hafdhgdfa. That's an... interesting name you've got there :)

robd
28th-January-2011, 05:51 PM
By the way, welcome to the forum hafdhgdfa. That's an... interesting name you've got there :)

Sounds like a good Welsh name to me.

jim
28th-January-2011, 08:45 PM
But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.

I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment. It may not be actually enforced but it is on all their printed literature.

This guy's (I assume your a guy) is totally right. Dancing is one of the last remaining inherently sexist world's.

How long till someone does try to legislate equality into it?

Dreadful Scathe
28th-January-2011, 11:45 PM
Most gay men wouldn't want to cause a fuss and so would either stick to same-sex classes or would dance as leads. But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.


I can't. What a waste of time that would be. The B&B lawsuit was because a gay couple were shown the door, that has never been the case in any ceroc (or independant) class has it ? There is an expectation that different sexes dance with each other im some locations, in others, perhaps less so, that is surely up to the organiser to look for. There is nothing to stop couples standing out to practice, I have done so many times when practicing for a competition because I didnt want to dance with other people at all. You cant make other people dance with you and i have seen people drop out when someone they simply dont like dancing with comes round. It has to do with all sorts of preferences in who they want to get UCP with. I don't think a man or women not being comfortable dancing with the same sex is necessarily bigoted. :)

Prian
29th-January-2011, 04:52 AM
I have danced with men on a number of occasions. Both leading and being lead. Admittedly it was just for fun, but nobody ever made comment (perhaps because they knew we were not serious, I don't know). Usually I did this in an Evangelical Church in South Kensington (on Fridays it was a Ceroc venue, but most of the dancers were church members).

Andy McGregor
29th-January-2011, 03:22 PM
Imagine a pub landlord puts up a 'no poofs' sign.
"I've got nothing against the gays personally, it's just that all my customers are homophobic. If I let gays in here the customers would threaten to knock their blocks off. So my reaction isn't based on me being homophobic, it's based on experience and common sense."

I don't think that would stand up in court, and I think you are opening yourself up to lawsuits.

Most gay men wouldn't want to cause a fuss and so would either stick to same-sex classes or would dance as leads. But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.

I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment. It may not be actually enforced but it is on all their printed literature.This shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation. There is a huge difference between drinking in the same building and holding someone in the embrace of the closed hold. I do not believe any judge or magistrate would uphold a complaint that a man or woman refused to embrace another member of same sex at a dance class - especially if that person was a total stranger. Furthermore, I do not believe that judgement would go against a dance teacher refused to let the situation arise where a man might be expected to embrace another man as part of his/her lesson.

Firstly, I'd like to remind people that I was one half of the first same-sex couple to win a medal at a national modern jive competition. I am not against women learning to lead or men learning to follow. And I'm not against same sex couples. However, I am for choice. And I believe one of those choices is that men should be able to choose if they dance with another man. Allowing a man to line up as a follower removes this choice.

t0mt0m
30th-January-2011, 04:06 PM
How's it all going Double Trouble? Has been a few months of practising :)
Getting good enough to getting the leads uneasy enough to up their leading game? Got a printed top to explain things simply yet Double Trouble? :)

Maybe seeing it less as resistance, as yet to see the light of some positive aspects?
There's a sexist undertone to calling leads and followers guys & gals.
It's shorthand stereotyping. I can see why in part - "Leads! Your footwork...." is a bit more formal than "Guys! Your foootwork".

The "10th commandment" is an eyebrow raiser. Maybe they got stuck at 9 hehe. I think it's graceful segued to "THE TEN MOST IMPORTANT THINGS".

The lead leads. The follow follows. Taken as it is, aren't they banning back-leading or hijacking?

From my perspective, it's a great Blink-type shortcut to find out all sorts of interesting things about the people who're reacting to the situation (views on gender roles, openness, dance teaching, dance learning style, how secure they are about themselves and their dancing). On top of a person's comfortableness with closeness to the same sex, holding hands & such to do the dance - there's pride, secureness in ability to dance in there too.

People can help out by stopping promoting a link between gender & dance role (lead/follow). (Maybe even think about the whole concept of why in the dance, lead can't be a role passed between the two dancers).Simply just use lead/follow more.

A woman being able to equally if not better be able to lead than a guy? Ooh, that might just be a hit to the pride of some men!

Learning both sides of the dance is a great thing to do. Shame it's frowned upon, and not seen for the benefits, including making you a much better dancer. For a guy not to have been led misses out on understanding how what their lead is like, and what is going on the other side of the dance.
What would you do if you wanted to get so good at a dance, that you could teach it?
Well, if done right, i'd imagine it'd be learn to dance both lead and follow!

Why some prefer female teachers - because you know that they've got the female styling, the following down, and have worked hard on the lead (they're up in front of everyone demonstrating it). Male teachers seem to need to overplay/satirise female styling so it comes across as a joke, whilst teaching female styling/follow movement.

Do women ever complain about dancing with a female teacher as a demonstration follow? (Apart from embarassment/nerves of everyone watching!) As a side note - are Ceroc Taxi dancers required to be able dance both roles/know the steps from both roles?


Dancing normally as a beginner lead at a ceroc gig last night , the vast majority of follows I danced with last night were great sports, and whilst left visibly bemused & confused, they had a smile on their face whilst dancing and were game for humoring a beginner for a song or so.
It was fun to be able to ask one of the lasses who looked like they'd sucked on a lemon due to my (currently atrocious) lead ~"You should lead me, I don't think my lead's strong, and it'd be great to learn how to lead by feeling how it's like"
The face of :eek: "You want me to lead" expression were priceless :wink:



Me "I've got more balls than you, Love" :D


Love it :D

Double Trouble
30th-January-2011, 08:24 PM
How's it all going Double Trouble? Has been a few months of practising :)

Hi t0mt0m, welcome to the forum. :flower:

I've been really lazy with my leading and have defaulted back to following recently, but I'm concentrating more on my Lindy Hop at the moment - one thing at a time. :wink:

David Bailey
31st-January-2011, 11:01 AM
People can help out by stopping promoting a link between gender & dance role (lead/follow). (Maybe even think about the whole concept of why in the dance, lead can't be a role passed between the two dancers).Simply just use lead/follow more.
Firstly, I really don't think same-sex dancing works most of the time socially. With the best will in the world, dances are not inherently designed for optimum performance as same-sex couples. It's possible to put on excellent performances, and it's possible to create interesting shapes and movements, with different genders, but in the main, many dances don't work quite so well as MM / FF.

Taking Tango as an example, a few obvious problems:
- Heels - it's much more difficult to follow if you don't have heels to help posture.
- Height - women are shorter than men on average, and in a progressive dance it helps for navigation if you can see the couple in front of you.
- Shape - most men are not really the right shape for dissociation; they're not as flexible as women generally.

That doesn't mean it's impossible to dance that way, of course, any more than it's impossible for a short man to dance with a tall, non-heel-wearing woman. And none of this is set in stone - there were several same-sex couples at a Tango venue I went to on Friday, for example. But frankly, they were all a bit problematic; the MM couple were all nuevo style, and the FF couples were pretty poor floorcraft-wise.

The only really superb and natural follower I've seen in Tango is Flavio de Brito (http://www.tangowithflavio.co.uk/about.html)- he's the only man I've actually wanted to dance with socially.

All that said:

Learning both sides of the dance is a great thing to do. Shame it's frowned upon, and not seen for the benefits, including making you a much better dancer.
Absolutely. There's a real benefit in learning the other role, at least to a point, because that knowledge it will definitely help you in understanding your "main" role.

Again, in Tango, I regularly get everyone to reverse-roles in my classes. And I'm personally doing a follower workshop in a few weeks also.

But I think it's important to distinguish between learning and social dancing.

Trouble
31st-January-2011, 11:47 AM
Firstly, I really don't think same-sex dancing works most of the time socially. With the best will in the world, dances are not inherently designed for optimum performance as same-sex couples. It's possible to put on excellent performances, and it's possible to create interesting shapes and movements, with different genders, but in the main, many dances don't work quite so well as MM / FF.

.

I dont know, ive had some great same sex dances..... Lory, Maxine, just to name a couple have been some of my most memorable of an evening. :na:

t0mt0m
31st-January-2011, 02:06 PM
Absolutely. There's a real benefit in learning the other role, at least to a point, because that knowledge it will definitely help you in understanding your "main" role. <snip> But I think it's important to distinguish between learning and social dancing.

I agree - I think it's something that both lead and follow need to feel comfortable about, for to work for it to work well socially.
CAn't and probably not wise to push it on people whilst they're learning, but at the same time - I don't think it necessarily right to promote guy=leader, female = follower you can be neutral about the language and say leads, followers.
In MJ/Ceroc - do women be leaders if there are a lot more females than guys in lesson? Seems female leads are accepted if a class is female heavy (at least in salsa) - yet guys seem a lot more reticent about being a follow (probably much easier for a guy to be led by a female lead, than a male lead).

Having that "so this is how my/the correct/incorrect lead feels like" moment is useful. That and understanding the why behind the lead itself - empathy in a way, that you're seeing what you're doing from your partner's perspective (e.g. you learn just why correct hand position is needed, so you're giving clear lead signals for example; or where a firm lead is needed. Appreciating what too much spinning and whirling feels like as a follow probably useful too! (I'm awful at that so far :blush:).

How do you implement this? Training females the lead steps, and males the follow steps, then swapping roles as a start? A female who is happy to lead and follow is an great partner!

David Bailey
31st-January-2011, 02:38 PM
I dont know, ive had some great same sex dances..... Lory, Maxine, just to name a couple have been some of my most memorable of an evening. :na:

Well, you can get away with it to a point in traditional Modern Jive and other swing dances. But it goes quite pear-shaped, quite quickly, when you look at in-hold dancing.

Maxine
31st-January-2011, 02:46 PM
Firstly, I really don't think same-sex dancing works most of the time socially. With the best will in the world, dances are not inherently designed for optimum performance as same-sex couples. It's possible to put on excellent performances, and it's possible to create interesting shapes and movements, with different genders, but in the main, many dances don't work quite so well as MM / FF.





I dont know, ive had some great same sex dances..... Lory, Maxine, just to name a couple have been some of my most memorable of an evening. :na:

I am quite happy to dance with other females, the only problem I find are their breasts getting in the way (do men find this?). It can actually be really useful feedback when dancing with another woman, so have used this as a learning tool. When I used to taxi, I’d often get women come up to me and ask me to dance with them.

I used to enjoy dancing with JayJay (remember her?) and could try out any new moves drops etc on her.

I also like to dance with other female leads such as Trouble and Batgirl, as you can steal the lead off of them and vice versa.

As for men dancing with men I have watched some fantastic dancing:respect::worthy:, and they seemed to be enjoying it.

Oh yes I do enjoy dancing with men as well by the way.

So I think it depends on the individual and possibly the reason why you dance.

Andy McGregor
31st-January-2011, 06:26 PM
I think it's well established that there are differences between the sexes when it comes to sports like dance.

I remember when I used to fence, when my national ranking at foil was jumping around between 50 and 100 for the men I don't remember ever being beaten by a woman. And I could be beaten easily by some of the top men :tears:

However, I would have been laughed at if I'd insisted on competing with the ladies - and I did rather like the idea of wearing those plastic breast protectors :wink:

What I'm getting at is that there are sexual differences* and they should be celebrated, not seen as an excuse for complaints and litigation :angry:

*In my case, quite small diffrences :tears:

cederic
31st-January-2011, 06:26 PM
One thing I've noticed is that when I see a lady doing a lot of leading and seldom following a male lead I find myself more reluctant to ask her for a dance.

I'm not sure why. It's a bit of "maybe she doesn't want to dance with men", a bit "maybe she wants to practice leading", some "she leads better than me, I'm scared to ask her for a dance because I'm not good enough" and possibly other reasons I haven't thought of yet.

Joyfully on Saturday I spotted one such lady lead stood inexplicably alone near the dance floor and had the courage to ask for a dance. I (still) can't follow so didn't offer her the chance to lead, but fortunately she had no hesitation agreeing to dance.

It was wonderful - probably the best follower I danced with all weekend, and one of those dancers that brings you up nearer to their level. That one dance (over two songs - at her request) made my entire weekend.

I don't resent her choosing to lead a lot, I do regret not asking her for a dance before now, and I have renewed desire to be able to follow so I can experience her lead..

I just find it odd that I feel discouraged from asking ladies that regularly lead if they'd like a dance.

sunnybunny
31st-January-2011, 08:11 PM
Hey Cederic - please don't not ask the lady leaders to dance.

There is a good chance that the reason she is leading is because she is fed up having to battle or stalk to get a dance with a male lead because of the cr@p gender balance at the event. It could be that she considers that it is much better to dance with a lady - and actually dance - after all, that is why she is there - than to stand on the edge of the dancefloor like a spare part.

cederic
31st-January-2011, 08:48 PM
Hey Cederic - please don't not ask the lady leaders to dance.


I do ask a lot of lady leaders to dance. It's when a lady dances 80-90% of the time with other ladies that I find myself reluctant to ask. partly for the reasons above.




There is a good chance that the reason she is leading is because she is fed up having to battle or stalk to get a dance with a male lead because of the cr@p gender balance at the event. It could be that she considers that it is much better to dance with a lady - and actually dance - after all, that is why she is there - than to stand on the edge of the dancefloor like a spare part.

If there's a gender imbalance then there are often ladies that don't/can't lead sat out too, so it's easier to find them and ask for a dance, and/or I find myself being grabbed as I leave the floor.

I'll try and force myself to ask more lady leaders for a dance - if they do want to lead they can always just say no :)

frodo
31st-January-2011, 10:09 PM
I think it's well established that there are differences between the sexes when it comes to sports like dance.

I remember when I used to fence, when my national ranking at foil was jumping around between 50 and 100 for the men I don't remember ever being beaten by a woman. And I could be beaten easily by some of the top men :tears:
Perhaps the pool of women fencers is much smaller - fencing not being an obvious female sport.

Andy McGregor
31st-January-2011, 11:12 PM
Perhaps the pool of women fencers is much smaller - fencing not being an obvious female sport.Fencing is not an obvious sport. It's a minority sport.

As far as women in fencing is concerned, our only gold fencing medal was won by a woman.

Consider tennis, which is a much more popular sport. I've heard that you'd have to get as low as 500 in the world rankings before you could find a man that the top woman player can beat!

However, on the face of it you could claim sex descrimination if Mr 499 were told he couldn't enter a women's tennis competition because he's the wrong sex. But only if you were very thick.

Amir
1st-February-2011, 01:00 AM
[this is my op-ed for the week. in other words, I've quoted some people out of context and got on a high horse since that makes it all the more interesting.]

Some of the comments on the natural differences between men and women had me checking the website url to make sure I wasn’t reading an anti-suffragette archive from the 1890s.

The fact is that any real or imagined differences between men and women are no longer justification for organisations prescribing roles based on gender. A competitive sports organisation may regulate itself based on sex-differences, but a jive night is neither a sport nor a competition. Prescribing roles based on sex at a jive night is much like making the women do the cooking and the men the plumbing at a home management course. I imagine you get more women on cooking courses and more men in plumbing, but I don’t imagine any organisation legally enforces this.

But then there is an important difference between jive and plumbing, (this is where the panto starts) and here it is:

If you go to a speed dating night (unless advertised otherwise) you would expect the men would date women and women date men.

But if you go to a reputable sports massage course, men will massage both men and women, and the other way around. If you expect otherwise you’ve signed up for the wrong kind of massage course.

So why are the expectations of a jive night more closely aligned with speed dating than with massage, even though massage is far more intimate than almost any regular jive class? In my opinion, its to do with sex.

To repeat, I don’t think the justifications which compare jive to competitive sports have anything to do with it. They guy who leaves Andy’s class because he is partnered with another man is not objecting to that man’s height or ability to dissociate. He does not walk out of the class if he ends up with a women taller than him, or one that isn’t wearing high heels or any of the other (frankly) silly reasons put forward as to why men can not follow and women can not lead. He is not concerned with the man’s ranking, or any supposed genetic propensities that make the competition with other followers unfair. He objects because at some level he perceives dancing as a sexual activity, and he doesn’t want to be engaged in a homosexual activity.

A heterosexual man will happily put his head between another man’s legs and shower naked next to him afterwards as long as you call what they are doing ‘rugby’. But he will not happily hold hands walking down the street. Why?

Same reason. Hand holding is associated with sex, whilst rugby isn’t. Where is my team mate during the scrum again? (hint: the panto has started).

So what I’m saying is, organisations that do not let men follow and women lead in their classes are reinforcing the belief that dancing is a sexual activity. Which isn’t surprising since its easier to sell a sexual activity than ‘a gender neutral contact based dance to modern music.’ And isn’t necessarily ‘bad’. As a society we may as well decide some activities are related to sex and other aren’t. When drunk you can put your arm around another mans shoulders and still be a bloke, but you can’t hold his hand.

But what is weird is that for many of us who have been dancing for a while, dancing is rarely sexual. At least for me, and I would love to see more organizations take the lead and promote dancing as a sexually neutral activity. In other words, it can be very sexual. But it can also be artistic, fun, playful, platonic, aggressive, boring… a platform for a whole palate of possible emotions and kinds of relationships.

Besides which, at a purely technical level, if more women lead and more men followed, we would have more people better at both.

Andy McGregor
1st-February-2011, 02:26 AM
But if you go to a reputable sports massage course, men will massage both men and women, and the other way around. If you expect otherwise you’ve signed up for the wrong kind of massage course. I think you will find that it is possible to stipulate the sex of someone who is going to be hands-on. At least in certain circumstances. For instance, my daughter responded to a job ad to join security at Gatwick that said words to the effect "women wanted". This was legally possible because women search women and men search men. The law makes this possible. There is no physiological reason why you can not search members of the opposite sex. But the law recognises that you have to make some exceptions.

Andy McGregor
1st-February-2011, 02:32 AM
But what is weird is that for many of us who have been dancing for a while, dancing is rarely sexual. At least for me, and I would love to see more organizations take the lead and promote dancing as a sexually neutral activity.I agree with this. In fact, the more I dance the less I find the actual act of sex "sexual" :confused:


Besides which, at a purely technical level, if more women lead and more men followed, we would have more people better at both.I think this is correct. But I'm sticking to my guns that men should not line up as women because an embrace from a strange man might cause offence to other men and it's not what men signed up for. Rumours that you "have to dance with other guys at Andy's classes" might also cause me to lose income and that's much more important.

A huge number of couples say they met 'dancing' and it will always be true that dance is a great medium for meeting the opposite sex. For most men the art of the dance is secondary to their main purpose.

Bubble
1st-February-2011, 04:42 AM
Rumours that you "have to dance with other guys at Andy's classes" might also cause me to lose income and that's much more important.

Have you considered that there might actually be a huge demand for that, especially in the Brighton area, which appears to have appointed itself as the Gay Capital of the UK. (http://gay.brighton.co.uk/)

Maxine
1st-February-2011, 09:38 AM
Hey Cederic - please don't not ask the lady leaders to dance.

There is a good chance that the reason she is leading is because she is fed up having to battle or stalk to get a dance with a male lead because of the cr@p gender balance at the event. It could be that she considers that it is much better to dance with a lady - and actually dance - after all, that is why she is there - than to stand on the edge of the dancefloor like a spare part.

:yeah:But you can have fun being the lead at the same time. It need not be a chore.

straycat
1st-February-2011, 09:40 AM
For most men the art of the dance is secondary to their main purpose.

I sense a poll in the making...

Gav
1st-February-2011, 10:04 AM
For most men the art of the dance is secondary to their main purpose.

That would have described my original intentions, however, I quickly learnt that I actually enjoyed dancing anyway and my 'purposes' were reversed in importance.

IMO, whilst it is important to have the freedom to choose. That is a man should have the freedom to choose to follow in a class and a woman should be able to choose to lead; but also a man leading should be able to choose not to lead another man and a woman following should be able to choose not to be led by another woman.

Now there, I believe, is the complication that will prevent it from ever becoming acceptable. The teachers would need to make it clear at the beginning of the class that this is the situation and the resulting issues from leaders and followers choosing who to dance with in lessons would be a nightmare.

David Bailey
1st-February-2011, 10:29 AM
I agree with this. In fact, the more I dance the less I find the actual act of sex "sexual" :confused:
That definitely falls into the "TMI" category. :na:


I think this is correct. But I'm sticking to my guns that men should not line up as women because an embrace from a strange man might cause offence to other men and it's not what men signed up for. Rumours that you "have to dance with other guys at Andy's classes" might also cause me to lose income and that's much more important.
Have you considered occasional reverse-roles for the entire class? I do this all the time at the start of my classes. That removes the "social problem" of the occasional male follow / female lead, simply because everyone's doing it.

Prian
1st-February-2011, 10:41 AM
The teachers would need to make it clear at the beginning of the class that this is the situation and the resulting issues from leaders and followers choosing who to dance with in lessons would be a nightmare.

I know that it is very common for a lady who likes to lead (or as is the case sometimes, just bored in the beginners class, or just to make up the numbers), to stand in the the men's/lead line of the class. It doesn't appear that many people complain.

Has it happened in the reverse? A man joining in the follow's/ladies line. There would be huge complaints I am sure.

Trouble
1st-February-2011, 11:19 AM
I know that it is very common for a lady who likes to lead (or as is the case sometimes, just bored in the beginners class, or just to make up the numbers), to stand in the the men's/lead line of the class. It doesn't appear that many people complain.

Has it happened in the reverse? A man joining in the follow's/ladies line. There would be huge complaints I am sure.

i dont think there would be if they were good, when i do a mans line up, i usually get told by most women that im doing it better than the men anyway so they enjoy it., Where i do not think the beginners enjoy it is freestyle. I would only freestyle with dance buddies, not with newbies.

Andy McGregor
1st-February-2011, 11:50 AM
That definitely falls into the "TMI" category. :na:I'm afraid it's age related. The more I dance the older I get :tears:


Have you considered occasional reverse-roles for the entire class? I do this all the time at the start of my classes. That removes the "social problem" of the occasional male follow / female lead, simply because everyone's doing it.I've done this from time to time. There's usually plenty of laughing but it's really a novelty and none of the men have become keen to follow as a result.

I think that most people who've done Modern Jive for more than a year or so don't even see dance as something to get good at. It's something they do and it makes them happy. Offering them the opportunity to improve by switching roles is irrelevant because they don't want to improve. They might want to learn the odd new move because they've "bored with their moves". But they don't want to become better dancers. To some extent they think learning new moves is becoming a better dancer.

Trouble
1st-February-2011, 12:15 PM
That definitely falls into the "TMI" category. :na:




Im probably being completely stupid but TMI?

straycat
1st-February-2011, 12:29 PM
Im probably being completely stupid but TMI?

Too Much Information.

Trouble
1st-February-2011, 12:36 PM
Too Much Information.

yep, now i feel stupid... Durr

Thanks SC :D

David Bailey
1st-February-2011, 01:17 PM
Re: role reversal:

I've done this from time to time. There's usually plenty of laughing but it's really a novelty and none of the men have become keen to follow as a result.
The way I do it for Tango is to start with a walk, then swap roles for that walk, in practice hold, just as a small segment of the class. Maybe there's an equally-basic starting point which could work for a MJ class? I find it's really helpful to get students to do this - but again this is from an AT perspective.


I think that most people who've done Modern Jive for more than a year or so don't even see dance as something to get good at. It's something they do and it makes them happy. Offering them the opportunity to improve by switching roles is irrelevant because they don't want to improve. They might want to learn the odd new move because they've "bored with their moves". But they don't want to become better dancers. To some extent they think learning new moves is becoming a better dancer.
I blame the teacher. :na:

David Bailey
1st-February-2011, 01:17 PM
yep, now i feel stupid... Durr

Thanks SC :D

I'm down with the kids, I am.

Cool. Wicked. Etc.

t0mt0m
1st-February-2011, 01:41 PM
Do most agree that the suitability is - yes maybe for a workshop as a piece within it. Something for those who want to learn more about dancing, in a more suitable situation. But not advised (for guys following, and not promoted for women to lead) in lesson? (Exceptions such as Brighton perhaps? Who knows - anyone been to Brighton classes?) Andy makes some great points about the practical side of things - whilst a female leading can make some ripples, at least generally it's accepted/not normally a cause of too many issues as it's a situation that occurs normally through unbalanced numbers (and the probability that many female followers could appreciate a good female lead's lead during a class, than male leads appreciating the following skills/dance with a male follower!) Male following could (in normal circumstances) cause a lot more disruption in a normal class. Anyone considering doing it in a normal class might want to balance their own interests, against the interests of the class as a whole, and the possible ramifications for the instructor/event owner. Is it seeing it as either a teaching aide & dance choice. I'd imagine there would be more women wanting to lead as a dance choice, than men doing following as a dance choice, and that guys do follow more likely for learning purposes? Other interesting point Andy mentioned - many folk who've been doing MJ for a while don't see dance as something to improve at, but rather something to just do & enjoy. Simply put - offering the opportunity to improve as a dancer by role-switch is irrelevant as many don't feel the need to improve. Best off only offering it to those who might be interested. Is it right to assume that as a female lead get's better, they'd get more respect as a lead/be less issues in class?

robd
1st-February-2011, 01:56 PM
Tell me t0mt0m, do you ever pause for breath when speaking? :na:

t0mt0m
1st-February-2011, 02:10 PM
Hmm, can't see the edit function. I swear there were at least a paragraph structure when I wrote it. Jeepers it looks a bit too wafflycondensed eh robd :)

David Bailey
2nd-February-2011, 10:47 AM
Do most agree that the suitability is - yes maybe for a workshop as a piece within it. Something for those who want to learn more about dancing, in a more suitable situation. But not advised (for guys following, and not promoted for women to lead) in lesson?
Why not?

Lessons are not social dancing. You're there to learn a skill. If the teacher says "reverse roles", with authority and confidence, then the students will, happily, reverse roles.

(Well, I say "happily", they may whinge about it, but in my experience, this is always because it's hard work or a bit scary, and never because it's Morally Wrong or whatever - in fact, it's usually the women who are less keen to be leads than the men are to be follows).

Anyone who may have any misgivings about it will not want to be an exception - in fact, the same fear of "standing out" that worries them about dancing with another man works for them this way.

And the other benefit of this is that, once you institutionalise it in a class as a regular occurrence, it helps balance numbers, because you find that you'll have a few people who are willing to take both lead and follow roles as required. I had 4 women over for my AT class, but 2 of the women simply swapped roles, so everyone got to learn, all of the time.

Of course, this does nothing to help in social situations, but that's another problem....


(Exceptions such as Brighton perhaps? Who knows - anyone been to Brighton classes?)
Blimey, what is it with you and Brighton? :D


Anyone considering doing it in a normal class might want to balance their own interests, against the interests of the class as a whole, and the possible ramifications for the instructor/event owner.
My own commercial interests tell me that my students will prefer to learn 100% of the time, instead of having to sit out / compete for partners and get stressed about being left out.

I did a AT class at Negracha's a couple of years ago, when there were simply 2 men over (out of a class of 40), and I was one of the guys - and the stupid teacher (not someone most will know!) didn't bother to move people round at all. :mad: So I spent literally half the class trying to get charity dances to learn - and I only got some because one nice couple saw my predicament and the man generously gave up half his time so I could dance with his partner. It was a horrible experience - in fact I gave up halfway through the class.

I would have far rather danced with a man (as a follow or lead) than sit it out, believe me.

I suspect many women have exactly the same experience and attitude. So it's in my own commercial interest to promote flexibility in roles.


Simply put - offering the opportunity to improve as a dancer by role-switch is irrelevant as many don't feel the need to improve.
I don't think that's true - I think many of the people going to classes are genuinely keen to learn. Even if they're not, it's fun to role-switch in classes - it breaks the ice, and it gets people talking and laughing, typically about how bad we all are at the other role.

Huh. This was going to be a short post...

Maxine
2nd-February-2011, 10:59 AM
Do most agree that the suitability is - yes maybe for a workshop as a piece within it. Something for those who want to learn more about dancing, in a more suitable situation. But not advised (for guys following, and not promoted for women to lead) in lesson? (Exceptions such as Brighton perhaps?

Why?????? – As DB says it’s a lesson – classes and lessons are where one learns.


Why not?

Lessons are not social dancing. You're there to learn a skill. If the teacher says "reverse roles", with authority and confidence, then the students will, happily, reverse roles.

(Well, I say "happily", they may whinge about it, but in my experience, this is always because it's hard work or a bit scary, and never because it's Morally Wrong or whatever - in fact, it's usually the women who are less keen to be leads than the men are to be follows).



:lol: Yes including me – I hated doing the leading in AT my body seemed to be dyslexic

David Bailey
2nd-February-2011, 11:49 AM
Why?????? – As DB says it’s a lesson – classes and lessons are where one learns.
To be fair, the line between "learning" and "social dancing" in MJ is a bit blurry - probably deliberately so, Because Learning To Dance Is Fun, or something... So I can understand why most MJ teachers don't, well, make it too hard.

it's only when I started doing AT that I personally started to understand the clear distinction between the two - it helps that Tango has distinct classes, practicas and milongas, that makes the difference clearer I think.


:lol: Yes including me – I hated doing the leading in AT my body seemed to be dyslexic
If it was easy, anyone could do it :)

If it's any consolation, leaders find following equally hard. :wink:

David Bailey
3rd-February-2011, 06:32 PM
In other news (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1350099/Stricly-Come-Dancing-Austria-Nikki-Lauda-complains-gay-numbers.html), it appears that Alfons Haider (the inspiration for the "Bruno" character) will be dancing as a follower in the Austrian DWTS.

Hmmm.