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Gav
27th-April-2010, 01:17 PM
you're confident dancing on your own.

That's a quote I've heard a few times recently, particularly at a Lindy Hop class and I'm starting to think they might be right.
What do you think?
Do you know any exceptions?

My thinking is that people who are confident dancing on their own will therefore have less inhibitions than those of us who aren't, and therefore will be better partner dancers. A wide generalism of course, but it makes some sense to me.

Beowulf
27th-April-2010, 01:30 PM
I think saying "You can't be good at A unless you're confident in doing B" is just another way of saying "You can't do A unless you're confident." Full stop.

Substitute "public speaking" or "acting" etc for B instead of "dancing solo" then you'll see my point. Some people may be great at partner dancing but nervous wrecks when it comes to public speaking.. or vice versa. Some people (not sitting a nanometer away from me at the moment) are woefully lacking in confidence and don't think I've .. erm I mean.. they've ever danced "solo" in my..erm.. their life! However, I've done acting etc and found that easier.

I guess if you're confident in dancing you're generally confident in all forms of dancing but it does depend on the individual. I certainly feel more comfortable dancing with a partner than dancing around my manbag on my ownsome (in theory)

jivecat
27th-April-2010, 01:32 PM
I think dancing on your own helps to develop musicality faster than dancing with a partner because you've got liberty to listen to the music and interpret it without the worry of dealing with a partner. It would also help to develop general movement skills.

But you need more than those things to be a good partner dancer, like timing, precision, empathy, social communication, self-awareness.

I don't think lack of inhibition is a particular advantage in a dancing partnership. Perhaps you were thinking of something else? :wink:

whitetiger1518
27th-April-2010, 01:34 PM
Absolutely hopeless while dancing on my own.... I never did get the dancing around handbags in a group thing. I used to manage the twist OK, but as my knees have stiffened :tears: that is a no go area now.

A combination of Ceilidh and MJ in my recent history means that I can't think what to do next if an opportunity to dance by myself happens (I proved this at a muggle wedding reasonably recently - I hadn't a clue how to dance and mainly watched my colleagues instead! :confused: )

WT

emmylou25
27th-April-2010, 02:22 PM
Confidence in dancing ability definitely helps with how you portray yourself to others when dancing, how you learn, and probably a positive attitude towards dance which will help learn & take on new dancing skills & style. You'll also give your partner more confidence. There's also the two sides of confidence - you can be confident in your skills, but you may be really shy and hate the 'showy' or performance aspect so that will impact any dancing whether solo or partner.

I don't believe that being a confident solo dancer will make you a good partner dancer. What it can do is give the impression that you are a good dancer, that you know what you're doing, and that you can cover up any lack in technique/following or leading ability with the performance and confidence that say 'I can dance'. You may feel totally exposed as a solo dancer, but feel totally at home in partner dancing.

For instance, I've done lots of dance in the past - ballet, modern, jazz, a bit of tap - all solo which has provided me with a lot of technical knowledge and confidence in my ability to pick up pretty much all technical sides of dance (but I still feel self conscious and that people are watching if i'm bopping at a wedding or such like). This knowledge helped me pick up the technical side of any ballroom dancing i've tried, and made me a proficient salsa dancer. The being a good follower came from having a salsa teacher who drummed into us correct lead & follow technique, adapting to different leads, tension/compression etc - and it's that which has enabled me to become a good partner in ceroc and also helped me pick up WCS fairly quickly. But would people watching say I'm a better partner dancer than one of my friends (similar background) who's admitted that I've got better technique and following/leading ability vs all her styling - because she's generally a more confident person with no inhibitions when it comes to dancing. Probably not.

Also, it will depend on who you're dancing with and what they want from a partner and a specific dance.

A lot of waffle there, but ultimately I don't think confidence to dance solo makes you a better partner dancer, but it will help the way you think about and learn dance, as well as enabling you to be a natural performer.

I think it's a lot like being a musician - you can be a great classically trained musician and play through reading music with no ability or confidence to improvise. Alternatively you could be a jazz musician, self taught and not able to read music. Both could be great musicians, just at different things (needless to say I was a music reader, and just didn't have the confidence to improvise!)

Andy McGregor
27th-April-2010, 03:53 PM
There's two answers to this.

My first answer is that you can't be a good partner dancer until you're a good partner dancer. You don't need to be anything else before you can become a good partner dancer. You just become good when you get good. And you usually get good by taking lessons and practicing what you'd like to be good at.

The second answer is specific to Modern Jive. And that answer is that you can't be a good partner dancer at a social dance like Modern Jive if you are anti-social. You might be a good dancer, you might even be technically good at Modern Jive and win competitions. But that's not the point. MJ is a social dance and if you are anti-social you are IMHO, rubbish.

CheesyRobMan
27th-April-2010, 04:28 PM
Maybe I'm just an aberration in this regard but I would say I'm not good at solo dancing at all, while considering myself a reasonably competent MJ/blues dancer with partner. That's because I learnt to dance at a ceroc class and all the dance instruction I've ever had has been with a partner. I can get up and shamble around a bit if I'm muggling but it's not the same at all. I learnt rhythm through learning music at school but the problem is just what to do with myself! With a partner it's easy, your hands/arms are occupied with them and your feet are concerned primarily with not stepping on them. When alone it's a very different story and I mostly have no idea. The results can be quite comical :lol::lol:

Double Trouble
27th-April-2010, 04:52 PM
Seems I'm in the minority.

I think there are 2 types of dancer

"dancing by numbers dancer" = can't solo dance

"wow factor dancer" = can solo dance

I imagine there are exceptions, but I don't know any.

robd
27th-April-2010, 06:44 PM
you're confident dancing on your own.


Is that to be taken literally - as in 'confident dancing solo with nobody watching'? If so, I suspect many/most partner dance participants would fit this category. If it means 'confident dancing solo within a group of others dancing solo' then the numbers probably hold up reasonably well. If it means 'confident dancing solo with other people watching' then I suspect the numbers drop through the floor. Like any generalisation it's true in some cases and not in others. There are elements of commonality but also quite significant differences between partner and solo dancing.

Amir
27th-April-2010, 07:20 PM
Well everyone’s standard of what ‘good’ is will be different, so I will say this: if you haven’t developed the confidence to move by yourself you are falling way way short of your potential as a partner dancer, in my opinion.

I don’t mean the confidence to dance when someone else is watching - alone in your room is just as good. But I believe there are two things you should be able to do to to become a competent partner dancer:

1) Feel able to express yourself by yourself. That way you have something to bring to the dance which at some level is your personality. This is the ‘why’ you move and not the ‘how’ you move.
2) Be able to dance the important elements of your dance by yourself. If I can’t do that I don’t trust I am really competent at moving with my partner. In partner dance the ‘how’ you move is also important, since it affects your partner a lot!

This isn't complicated. All you need to do is put on some music in your bedroom and boogie around until you feel comfortable or self expressive. The second one involves picking some of the most common moves you lead or follow, and see if you can do them with an imaginary partner. An outside opinion on this one can be helpful.

cederic
27th-April-2010, 07:26 PM
I can't dance on my own. Doesn't ever happen (occasional victory dances don't count (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=19971127&id=EncfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Qi4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=4184,1646868)).

I've been partner dancing for a whole ten weeks. I know a ton of things I want to improve on, particularly my musicality, and I only know half a dozen "intermediate" moves.

Despite this, I think I can reach the level of 'good' as a partner dancer. It's something I want to achieve, and something that feels like an attainable objective.

More importantly, I can already often ensure that my partner enjoys the dance, and surely that's all that's needed to be a good partner dancer?

Lory
27th-April-2010, 08:29 PM
This isn't complicated. All you need to do is put on some music in your bedroom and boogie around until you feel comfortable or self expressive.
........ And then enter yourself on 'Britains got Talent' :rofl:

Amir
27th-April-2010, 11:51 PM
I can't dance on my own. Doesn't ever happen.

Can you march on the spot in time to the music?

Prian
28th-April-2010, 04:23 AM
There's two answers to this.

My first answer is that you can't be a good partner dancer until you're a good partner dancer. You don't need to be anything else before you can become a good partner dancer. You just become good when you get good. And you usually get good by taking lessons and practicing what you'd like to be good at.

The second answer is specific to Modern Jive. And that answer is that you can't be a good partner dancer at a social dance like Modern Jive if you are anti-social. You might be a good dancer, you might even be technically good at Modern Jive and win competitions. But that's not the point. MJ is a social dance and if you are anti-social you are IMHO, rubbish.
I know exactly what you mean. There is always a group/crowd at MJ events rather than classes (generally dance near the stage/DJ), who think that they are gods gift to MJ. And will not dance with, ask to dance or accept a dance from someone they do not think are of their level. And on the odd occasion that their radar fails them, refuse to acknowledge or smile or show enjoyment to the person they are dancing with. I would much rather dance with a beginner that smiled.

I once asked Viktor what one should say when asked "are you any good at this." He told me to say "I am only as good as my partner." I think that a good dance partner is someone who dances within the field or scope of the person they are dancing with. If you dance with someone and enjoy the dance then they are a good dance partner, highlighted by whether you or they wish to dance with each other again. I think it as simple as that. One ability to dance solo or whatever has little bearing on whether they are a good partner for you.

As you say Andy MJ is social. to my mind that means it is to be enjoyed. I have danced with some of the "legendary" ladies of Ceroc, Christine Keeble, Sylvia Coleman, Janie Cronin and Lydia Maurer among others (anyone not knowing these ladies, I will gladly explain). All with varying levels of enjoyment. Now I would be the first to compliment them on their dancing prowess and sing their praises to others, but as for being a good dance partner for me, some of them I'm not sure.

ant
28th-April-2010, 06:10 AM
Can you march on the spot in time to the music?

I suspect leaders can almost get away with this if they have good connection and timing.

However I think followers have to move much more.

And the better they are as a solo dancer the better they may look at partner dancing. However to enjoy a dance with a follower their connection and timing to the music would be the more important.

martingold
28th-April-2010, 08:19 AM
"dancing by numbers dancer" = can't solo dance

thats me then cos i am rubbish at solo dancing :D

Gav
28th-April-2010, 08:41 AM
but I am quite good

Maybe I need to define what I'm trying to say a bit better. I'm not saying that you can't be a competent/good partner dancer if you can't/won't dance on your own; I'm saying that you're missing that extra "wow" factor and that includes me. I know that I can be a very competent dancer, but I'll never have that je ne sais quoi.


I think there are 2 types of dancer:
"dancing by numbers dancer" = can't solo dance
"wow factor dancer" = can solo dance
I imagine there are exceptions, but I don't know any.

:yeah:, that's pretty much what I mean.


Is that to be taken literally - as in 'confident dancing solo with nobody watching'?

No, as you say, anyone can do that. I mean definitely with people watching. Like at a club, party etc but without getting hammered first.


thats me then cos i am rubbish at solo dancing :D

Yes it is you (and me, and the majority of MJers).

Gav
28th-April-2010, 08:54 AM
To give my own thoughts a bit more context, I have been trying to learn Lindy Hop on and off for quite a while. Technically, I think I've become a good beginner.
Something they seem to do in most Lindy classes (from time to time) is teach, or just do, strolls. A stroll is similar to line dancing, but with a bit of swing and the freedom to do something different if the music inspires you to.
So I've been learning strolls and the jazz steps that they're made up of. The teachers insist that it's important because of the whole solo dancing thing.
I hope it'll make my Lindy better, but I know it still won't give me that x-factor because I'll still be doing it in a crowd of people doing the same routine.

and maybe that's it. Whether you're improvising the order of the moves you've learnt, or following a complete routine, you're still in your comfort zone and doing what you've been taught.
When you see good dancers on their own, they're doing what they feel to the music and I think that's what those lucky b4st4rds bring to a partner dance that makes the difference.

rtwwpad
28th-April-2010, 10:18 AM
I think comfort zones are the issue. Everyone can dance it's just that the funky stuff you do in the kitchen doesn't get brought to the floor. Of course if you've had to learn stone cold sober as you can no longer drink it can be a little harder again.

rtwwpad
28th-April-2010, 11:10 AM
Sorry got cut off mid flow. I think that being a good dance partner doesn't mean you have to be confident solo. I think it means you have to make the other person enjoy the dance. Its different things for men and women though.

Women who compliment me (yes, on rare occasions it happens) on a dance, usually like the fact that is a) been smooth and b) provided them with the opportunity to express themselves a little. So for them, the fact that I don't do spins or complicated footwork doesn't seem to matter.

For me, I like it when a follow takes the opportunity presented to do something stylish or artistic. So for me a good partner follows well and takes her chances.

I find it hard when I have to follow to put he flourishes or footwork in. But this is mainly because I'm a stout bearded welshman being led by an exotic woman who is cackling at me (sorry I meant wife), I haven't been following that long.

So does confidence in solo dancing equate to the attributes mentioned. For women maybe, for men, not so much.

clevedonboy
28th-April-2010, 12:27 PM
I don't like to dance on my own because I can't see why I should. So I don't know if I'd be any good at it. But I do have lots of confidence when dancing and I like to play around and even "show off" (mainly for the benefit of my partner). What people tell me & Julia is they enjoy watching us dance they say things like it always looks like fun & I think that is the secret, trying to enjoy what you're doing means that you lose inhibitions, go for shapes you haven't learned and generally make a bit of a pratt of yourself.

I think Amir's point about having confidence in being able to move alone is spot on.

Andy McGregor
28th-April-2010, 12:31 PM
I've been thinking a bit about this. I think the big difference between a solo dance and a partner dance is lessons. Very few people have been to a solo dance lesson, especially guys - put your hand down Amir!

Therefore our solo dance is something that's been made up. Usually made up after a few drinks and done in a crowded party or disco situation! The solo dance often expresses joy and enthusiasm but it's usually very repetitive in terms of variety of moves. Sometimes those moves look good, sometimes they don't. But you are usually having fun.

On the other hand, apart from the slow smooch, partner dances require some training, not least because both partners need to be doing the same partner dance.

I think the real answer is that you can't really be a good partner dancer unless...

.. you get some lessons.

If you got some lessons at solo dancing I'm sure you'd be much better at solo dancing as well.

Rachel
28th-April-2010, 01:08 PM
I would say, you probably can't be an exceptional partner dancer, unless you're a good solo dancer.

But a 'good' partner dancer - yes, I think it's entirely possible, as it's a very different skill.

However … I don't think you can be a good partner OR solo dancer unless you have a fair amount of body awareness and control (i.e. frame, flexibility, etc, etc). IMO this doesn't have to come from dance lessons, it could be pilates, yoga or martial arts, for example.

This makes such a difference to both the feel and the look of a dance. It's amazing how often you see the wrong muscle groups being used, such as men tensing their shoulders to force a lead; or ladies pushing forward their shoulder to take their arm back. And unless there's a certain amount of core strength, you are likely to be relying on your partner for balance. Etc etc

Without the correct posture, balance and control, I don't think you could ever hope to be a really good dancer. In modern jive, you can get away with a lot, as the emphasis is on fun (correctly, in my opinion), but learning some basics of how to move your own body is only going to improve the partner dance experience.

I guess it's just like when we are trying to learn to spin - I could happily do ballet pirouttes but when I started Ceroc I had real problems slowing down the turns for the right timing. So … we have to become aware of what our body is doing and then learn what we need to correct to get the desired result.

The trouble is, most of us don't go any further, as we can easily 'get by' in modern jive without having the right frame or turn out, or lines or whatever.

Rachel

Andy McGregor
28th-April-2010, 01:27 PM
However … I don't think you can be a good partner OR solo dancer unless you have a fair amount of body awareness and control (i.e. frame, flexibility, etc, etc). IMO this doesn't have to come from dance lessons, it could be pilates, yoga or martial arts, for example.:yeah:

I think Rachel has summed it up nicely. It's all about body awareness and getting the lines right.

We have a guy who comes to our classes who looks dreadful. It's almost as if he deliberately twists this way and that to make himself look awkward. I think he gets one basic thing in the wrong place and then adjusts everything else to compensate and ties himself in knots to make the move work for the lady. And the ladies say he's really nice to dance with but not so nice to look at. If he'd had some other training he'd get his lines right and he'd be absolutely fabulous.

What do I do about him? Absolutely nothing. He only comes for freestyle, I didn't teach him so I don't feel guilty and he's having such a great time why would I burst his bubble?

Amir
28th-April-2010, 01:36 PM
I suspect leaders can almost get away with this if they have good connection and timing.

I didn't mean this is what you should do when you partner dance. It was a response to someone saying they can not dance on their own, when in my opinion if you can march on the spot you can dance on your own. From there if you can graduate to step, touch, step, touch, you'll be a better partner dancer.

I don't mean you will look better - I'm not talking about flashy spins and clever footwork. I mean you will feel better to dance with. Everyone saying connection is more important is missing the point that you are connecting your body to another persons body. If you can improve the co-ordination, control and expressiveness of your own body, your connection will transmit all those things.

To reemphasise - I'm not talking about doing jazz classes at pineapple! Just get comfortable with moving your body around, the things I mentioned above, and you'll be closer to realising your potential as a partner dancer.

geoff332
28th-April-2010, 03:24 PM
There are so many problems with that statement, it's hard to know where to start.

The first one is probably that it's so general and subjective that either answer - yes or no - is essentially meaningless. Unless you're clear as to what makes a "good partner dancer" and a "good solo dancer", then it's up to people to interpret those things. As everyone will probably interpret them differently, then the individual answers will be different. Probably true, from the individual's subjective perspective, but not particularly helpful.

The second one dives into the detail: there are some common elements between solo and partner dancing. But there are also elements that are very different. This is probably true when you're comparing any two forms of dance, with the degree of overlap varying quite wildly. There is a lot of overlap between the various 'freestyle' partner dancers; there is less overlap between these forms of dance and other forms of dance.

Thirdly, this statement is, logically, saying that all of the elements to make a person a good partner dancer are a superset of the elements necessary to make a person a good solo dancer. I'm not an expert in solo dancing, but I suspect that is a very limiting statement for solo dancers. I would suspect there are a lot of skills necessary for a good solo dancer that are not necessary to be a good partner dancer.

To the extent a statement like that is true, it's not particularly helpful. Having a basic competence as a dancer will make you better at all forms of dance. But that misses the whole point that "better" does not equate to "good" (I am a "better" mathematician than most people, but I am, by no stretch of the imagination, a "good" mathematician). There are common elements in all forms of dance (Amir talks about being comfortable moving your body to music - which is really the base of all dancing). But there are also elements are unique to each dance form.

Finally, why complicate it? Why not focus on, "what do you need to be a good partner dancer?" This seems a lot simpler than telling someone - or even suggesting - that you have to be a good solo dancer to be a good partner dancer.

foxylady
28th-April-2010, 03:52 PM
I think what Gav is getting at, and has been sort of reiterated by Rachel and Amir is that there is a big difference between being technically good and being 'wow'.
Watching SYTYCD shows that in spades. Dancers who are technically perfect (the extreme) solo or partner do not adapt well to other styles, but dancers who have that inner something, who have rhythm in their bones, who have the wow factor can take to and excel at anything.
Similarly instinctive dancers wherever they started can bring something of themselves to any dance they learn (again with the lessons... but learning doesn't always need to be formal it can be by watching and copying others) be it solo or partner..

I have seen some very talented ballet dancers look absolutely like arrhythmic morons when attempting to 'disco' dance. Similarly talented ballroom dancers ditto...
So it matters not with whom, but who you are and how your soul interprets the music...


Our very own Lory - I cannot imagine her dancing badly to anything. She oozes musicality and she epitomises that (was it 70s?) song "I've got the music in me". I am not sure you can learn that. You either have it or you don't.



(infact I have just explained to myself why I don't like dancing in Singapore. Here everyone dances by numbers. Many are technically perfect but they have no soul. Its boring to watch and boring to do. I prefer clubbing here because at least in a clubbing environment not everyone is bounded by the singaporean social mores and you find some people dancing from the heart rather than from a text book...)

cederic
28th-April-2010, 05:33 PM
I didn't mean this is what you should do when you partner dance. It was a response to someone saying they can not dance on their own, when in my opinion if you can march on the spot you can dance on your own. From there if you can graduate to step, touch, step, touch, you'll be a better partner dancer.

I don't mean you will look better - I'm not talking about flashy spins and clever footwork. I mean you will feel better to dance with. Everyone saying connection is more important is missing the point that you are connecting your body to another persons body. If you can improve the co-ordination, control and expressiveness of your own body, your connection will transmit all those things.

Marching on the spot in time to music is rhythm and tempo rather than dance. I've never learned how to dance solo, how to move my feet, my body, my arms, and I never get up and dance. So I can't dance solo, but I possibly can march on the spot.

I'm learning how to move to music and apply that innate rhythm to dance through partner dance lessons. So I'll possibly never feel comfortable solo dancing (and right now if my partner does her own thing out of a spin, I'm still struggling to do anything more imaginative than stand there applauding until she's ready to reconnect). I don't think that will stop me becoming a 'good' partner dancer.

I appreciate that I'm going to lose this argument as I'm hopelessly inexperienced on this subject and you're, well, Amir.. :)


I think what Gav is getting at, and has been sort of reiterated by Rachel and Amir is that there is a big difference between being technically good and being 'wow'.

If you raise the bar to 'wow' then I duck out of the conversation entirely. I suspect very few people ever reach 'wow'

emmylou25
28th-April-2010, 07:46 PM
However … I don't think you can be a good partner OR solo dancer unless you have a fair amount of body awareness and control (i.e. frame, flexibility, etc, etc). IMO this doesn't have to come from dance lessons, it could be pilates, yoga or martial arts, for example.

This makes such a difference to both the feel and the look of a dance. It's amazing how often you see the wrong muscle groups being used, such as men tensing their shoulders to force a lead; or ladies pushing forward their shoulder to take their arm back. And unless there's a certain amount of core strength, you are likely to be relying on your partner for balance. Etc etc

Without the correct posture, balance and control, I don't think you could ever hope to be a really good dancer.
Rachel

And that's probably why you see so many sportsmen/women take to dancing on the various dance shows so much easier than tv presenters, and to some extent actors. Because they're more aware of their bodies, shape and movement.

It also means you have to get over any inhibitions about what you may look like as you're experimenting. For me it took a lot of technical training to get comfortable and understand body isolations etc, then a lot of copying other people to pick up a style I liked, and now if I'm dancing with someone else I'm quite happy just to do my own thing and I'm not bothered about what other people are thinking. (However I'd still not be comfortable doing my own random dancing on my own). Being in a partnership does help remove some inhibitions

ant
28th-April-2010, 08:39 PM
Marching on the spot in time to music is rhythm and tempo rather than dance. I've never learned how to dance solo, how to move my feet, my body, my arms, and I never get up and dance. So I can't dance solo, but I possibly can march on the spot.

I'm learning how to move to music and apply that innate rhythm to dance through partner dance lessons. So I'll possibly never feel comfortable solo dancing (and right now if my partner does her own thing out of a spin, I'm still struggling to do anything more imaginative than stand there applauding until she's ready to reconnect). I don't think that will stop me becoming a 'good' partner dancer.

I appreciate that I'm going to lose this argument as I'm hopelessly inexperienced on this subject and you're, well, Amir.. :)


Winning or losing the arguement depends on what your aim is regarding partner dancing. If you want to enter competitions the main aim is to look good and so you will loose but if you want to be a competent social dancer and be able to dance with everybody at a venue because they know they will get a good dance from you then you will win.

As long as you learn to move your feet with the beat you must then be on the same timing as your partner and as long as you can syncronise your intention in the lead with your followers movements your follower will have a great dance and you will have a pleasant experience.

This arguement has echoes of a post in another forum admittedly about Tango but the message applies.



dance only things you know how to dance. If you are not 110% sure you can make something work don't do it. If you feel that your dancing would be too "boring" if you do that go back to 2) - there is always an elderly, overweight, argentine guy in a suit who slowly dances around the edge of the dancefloor, and all he does is waking and maybe an ocho once in a while. And he has usually an amazingly beautiful girl who dances incredibly well plastered all over him. Be that guy. there is also always a someone on the dancefloor who wrestles his partner through all kinds of maneouvers, interrupted only by short pauses where he repeats a move 5 time till it "works", or where he explains just exactly how the follower has to move to make the 40 step sequence he wants to do work. Note that he dances mostly with beginners. Note the frozen smile on his partners face. Don' be that guy.




2) learn to enjoy not-dancing
watching other dancers is a skill that you absolutly need. find people you like watching, and steal shamelessly from them. find people you don't like watching, and try to figure out why their tango is great. see who dances how with whom.


And I am sure there are other MJes and WCS people here who can give similar anecdotes of leaders who don't move very much and lead their followers in their slot relying on their timing rather than their movement.

Gav
28th-April-2010, 08:40 PM
If you raise the bar to 'wow' then I duck out of the conversation entirely. I suspect very few people ever reach 'wow'

It's not really raising the bar, it's just expressing what I meant better than I did.
So... bye then :D

Double Trouble
29th-April-2010, 08:31 AM
If you raise the bar to 'wow' then I duck out of the conversation entirely. I suspect very few people ever reach 'wow'

You're right, very few people do reach "wow", but there's nothing wrong with aiming for "wow" even though we know we might not ever get there?

Amir
29th-April-2010, 10:09 AM
Marching on the spot in time to music is rhythm and tempo rather than dance.

So moving with rhythm to music is not dancing? Then what is it?

What if you did that with a dance partner, swaying from side to side with rhythm to music -that isn't dancing either?


I'm still struggling to do anything more imaginative than stand there applauding until she's ready to reconnect). I don't think that will stop me becoming a 'good' partner dancer.

In my first post I said its pointless discussing what 'good' is, since its not a comp, who cares? It makes more sense to discuss realising your potential. If you are a bad partner dancer, working on your solo dancing could mean you become a good partner dancer. If you're good, you could become great, etc. My point is, if someone ignores how they move by themselves they will fall way way short of their potential as a partner dancer. And I DON'T MEAN HOW GOOD YOU LOOK! I mean how good you feel to dance with.


So I can't dance solo, but I possibly can march on the spot.

Good - then you are a better partner dancer than if you couldn't march on the spot. I don't care if you think its dancing or not, call it what ever you like. But if you can get confident marching on the spot, and then confident swaying from side to side, and then confident in marching around the room, you'll be a better partner dancer than if you weren't confident at all these things. Its not hard to learn, and will improve your partner dancing more than learning a couple of new moves.

Amir
29th-April-2010, 10:31 AM
Winning or losing the arguement depends on what your aim is regarding partner dancing. If you want to enter competitions the main aim is to look good and so you will loose but if you want to be a competent social dancer and be able to dance with everybody at a venue because they know they will get a good dance from you then you will win.

This is totally baffling to me - that you should only consider dancing by yourself if you want to look good, but if you want to feel good it doesn't matter? What do you think makes someone feel good if not how they are moving, and the confidence and enjoyment that they bring to that? This notion that you can somehow separate movement and feeling in dancing is crazy I tells ya!


And I am sure there are other MJes and WCS people here who can give similar anecdotes of leaders who don't move very much and lead their followers in their slot relying on their timing rather than their movement.

Again! Baffling!!!! 'Their timing rather than their movement.' What conveys their timing if not their movement? Agghghg!

I think this confusion stems from an assumption that solo dancing has to be some kind of turning, drop to splits, back bend jazz routine from the 80s. Rubbish! It can be on the spot, barely moving. But if you can do that confidently, by yourself, in my opinion there is no doubt you will be a far better partner dancer.


Kisses to everyone! I get frustrated with this one constantly, especially in classes when people show reluctance to learn their individual movements (and now I'm seeing why) because it appears people assume doing the movement by yourself is vanity and unimportant for 'good partner dancing'.

In my opinion this point of view is DEAD WRONG. Even if its just swaying side by side, if you can't do it confidently by yourself, to the point where it feels good TO YOURSELF it won't magically feel good to your partner. You might think it does because if feels good to hold on to someone in this cold and ruthless world we live in, but trust me, do yourself a favour, go home, turn off the lights, put on your favourite music, and get confident at swaying side to side, marching on the spot, just grooving, or whatever. If you or your dance partners don’t notice a significant improvement in how you feel within 6 weeks you can claim your money back.

(This post was free. I won’t owe you anything)
(I would like recognition if you make it through on Britain’s got Talent though)

Beowulf
29th-April-2010, 10:49 AM
"dancing by numbers dancer" = can't solo dance

or in my case.. Dancing by Calculus.. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't mind so much.. but every now and again up crops a pesky imaginary number :sick:

"Hmm.. that was an 'interesting' move Pete"
"Yeah sorry.. that was the square root of -42 !" :wink:

Trouble
29th-April-2010, 11:20 AM
or in my case.. Dancing by Calculus.. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't mind so much.. but every now and again up crops a pesky imaginary number :sick:

"Hmm.. that was an 'interesting' move Pete"
"Yeah sorry.. that was the square root of -42 !" :wink:

oh you are a card Peter... you make me laugh so much - oh and good luck this weekend by the way xxxx

Anyway here is my take on it - Gav's post i mean

Confidence = good and bad.

confident good dancer = leaves partner thinking wow what a great dance.

confident bad dancer = leaves partner thinking get me out of here you cocky bugger and where is the nearest A & E so i can put my arm back into its socket.

Unconfident good dancer = leaves partner thinking ahh this is nice.

Unconfident bad dancer = leaves partner thinking get me out of here this poor sod is like a kangaroo on crack.

daveb9000
29th-April-2010, 01:01 PM
kangaroo on crack.
LMAO:lol:

Amir
29th-April-2010, 01:22 PM
I appreciate that I'm going to lose this argument ... :)

Hey man! An argument is never lost as long as you post the last post!


If you raise the bar to 'wow' then I duck out of the conversation entirely. I suspect very few people ever reach 'wow'

I think your 'wow' bar is maybe too high. When I first started Ceroc pretty much any dancer who could make it through an int level class and remember the whole routine was 'wow' to me.

Lost Leader
29th-April-2010, 05:21 PM
.....When I first started Ceroc pretty much any dancer who could make it through an int level class and remember the whole routine was 'wow' to me.

Hang on a minute - Who said anything about remembering all that stuff?

martingold
30th-April-2010, 12:48 PM
surely a wow dance would mean different things to different people as a social dancer I have come from a dance floor with certain people and thought "wow", ok someone looking on might not have seen it as such but both partners were totally immersed in the music and the dance. To me you cant get any better than that I have no desire to dance for anyone other than my partner and myself i certainly have no intentions of performing or competing

Double Trouble
30th-April-2010, 01:19 PM
surely a wow dance would mean different things to different people

Well, sometimes. When I first started dancing I would have "wow" dances on a regular basis, but it's like that when you're a newbie. Basically, I think it's relative to your own ability and experience.

On the other hand, take Tiger Pants. I don't know anyone who's danced with him who hasn't come away from the experience feeling like they've just had the most orgasmic "wow" dance ever. He's a God! I bet he can throw some shapes on the dance floor at the disco. :drool:

Lory
30th-April-2010, 01:58 PM
On the other hand, take Tiger Pants. "wow" He's a God!

:yeah:

jive-vee
30th-April-2010, 07:22 PM
Well, sometimes. When I first started dancing I would have "wow" dances on a regular basis, but it's like that when you're a newbie. Basically, I think it's relative to your own ability and experience.

On the other hand, take Tiger Pants. I don't know anyone who's danced with him who hasn't come away from the experience feeling like they've just had the most orgasmic "wow" dance ever. He's a God! I bet he can throw some shapes on the dance floor at the disco. :drool:

:yeah: I love this man! :hug:

Tiger Pants
5th-May-2010, 05:17 PM
.......I'm glad I'm working on my own today, you three have just given me the reddest face I've had since I was ..... much younger.

I used to love dancing and when I was 17 I started going to clubs, or discos as they were known then. Chart music Friday and Saturday and Soul on Sundays. I'm kinda out of the habit of dancing without a partner now but still get a kick out of it.

I don't think you have to be good solo to make a good partner dancer but for me its firstly about the music and if I can get into that then the chances are I, and in turn my partner, will have a good dance.

Of course the assumption is always that you have a decent partner and the combination of that with good music is always gonna be good.

Minnie M
5th-May-2010, 05:29 PM
Well, sometimes. When I first started dancing I would have "wow" dances on a regular basis, but it's like that when you're a newbie. Basically, I think it's relative to your own ability and experience.

On the other hand, take Tiger Pants. I don't know anyone who's danced with him who hasn't come away from the experience feeling like they've just had the most orgasmic "wow" dance ever. He's a God! I bet he can throw some shapes on the dance floor at the disco. :drool:


:yeah:


:yeah: I love this man! :hug:

:drool::yeah:
make space for me in this queue

Gerry
5th-May-2010, 05:46 PM
.......I'm glad I'm working on my own today, you three have just given me the reddest face I've had since I was ..... much younger.

I used to love dancing and when I was 17 I started going to clubs, or discos as they were known then. Chart music Friday and Saturday and Soul on Sundays. I'm kinda out of the habit of dancing without a partner now but still get a kick out of it.

I don't think you have to be good solo to make a good partner dancer but for me its firstly about the music and if I can get into that then the chances are I, and in turn my partner, will have a good dance.

Of course the assumption is always that you have a decent partner and the combination of that with good music is always gonna be good.

I apologise for the Crap dance on Sunday:blush: still learning to follow

Tiger Pants
6th-May-2010, 02:49 PM
Gerry, I enjoyed our dance - at least I knew where you were all the time, which could not be said for the rest of Sunday when you were leading!

Good to see you again, and by the way I thought it was a fantastic weekend. Well taught workshops and great freestyling too, only problems were a lack of sleep and total confusion in the doubles workshop as I didn't know if I was leading or following at one point.

Gerry
6th-May-2010, 03:01 PM
Gerry, I enjoyed our dance - at least I knew where you were all the time, which could not be said for the rest of Sunday when you were leading!

Good to see you again, and by the way I thought it was a fantastic weekend. Well taught workshops and great freestyling too, only problems were a lack of sleep and total confusion in the doubles workshop as I didn't know if I was leading or following at one point.

Thanks for the compliment:grin: always fun to be led by a real dancer.

The weekend for me was Fab, good company, good food, great golf and more importantly great dancing.

A big thankyou to all my hosts :respect:and to Paul Harris on a great double trouble WCS class:yeah:

At Southport I will do my best not to keep bumping into you or your partner on the dance floor :lol:

Tiger Pants
6th-May-2010, 05:07 PM
At Southport I will do my best not to keep bumping into you or your partner on the dance floor :lol:

Even you will manage that Gerry, I won't be there.:rofl:

Nessiemonster
16th-May-2010, 06:53 AM
I agree totally with both Rachel and Amir - there is much to be said for technique, but absolutely for feeling comfortable with your own body and how it moves. It's not about 'wow' movements, just about knowing what your body does/doesn't feel comfortable with.

But on the flip side, I've danced solo all my life. I've had no proper training in any style/technique, I've just danced whatever comes out of my heart/soul. I feel completely confident and comfortable with how my body moves, but am not confident dancing solo in front of people unless it's choreographed (and I'm not good at learning choreography, so I'm not that confident even then!) This is because my solo dancing comes from my soul, and as such I feel very vulnerable when solo dancing as my soul is bared, so to speak, and there is much to see for those who can read it.

Does all this make me a better partner dancer? Initially, absolutely not!!! I was so used to moving on my own and having control of my own dance that I REALLY struggled to follow. It took probably 18 months before I grasped the notion of following properly.

Now? I'm probably not the best person to comment on my own dancing. But I know that I enjoy my partner dances. I can follow, and I enjoy the feel of my partner dances. And I am confident to move my body and express myself to the music and my partner. I am confident improvising and interpreting the music within the conversation of the dance.

But I do sometimes get frustrated because there are occasions when I can't dance how I would like to to a piece of music when I'm with a partner. And if I'm dancing to music I've often danced to solo then I would say I'm probably not so good to dance with as I tend to be listening more to what my body wants to do than to the lead. Sorry. :blush:

Neu Wien
4th-June-2010, 11:45 AM
Particularly for guys I don't think it's relevant. I'm of the view that partner dancing is all about making the lady look and feel good. As a solo dancer, it's all about making me look good, which is a whole different thing.

David Bailey
4th-June-2010, 12:21 PM
Particularly for guys I don't think it's relevant. I'm of the view that partner dancing is all about making the lady look and feel good. As a solo dancer, it's all about making me look good, which is a whole different thing.

I agree in general, but it gets a bit more complex than that after a while.

For me, the first priority in partner dancing is to provide a clear lead, which (without being forceful) makes it 100% obvious where my partner should go, when, and at what tempo. If that fails, everything else fails. Similarly, I think that floorcraft is essential - if that fails, everything else is a problem. "First do no harm", and so on.

But once I've achieved what I think is a reasonable level with the essential areas, there are many many other things to work on. Improving musicality, better posture, and variety of steps, for example.

So "looking good myself" is one of those secondary things that I'm trying to work on now. It's not a bad thing to want to do, but I feel the problem is that people try to work on that area too early, at the expense of the more vital areas.

Juju
6th-June-2010, 05:59 PM
I have no problems with getting up and dancing solo in front of a room full of people, but can easily go to pieces dancing with a partner. Performance anxiety. Gets me every time.

Astro
28th-June-2010, 01:15 PM
It's tricky dancing with someone!

Bit like living alone and doing your thang, or living with a partner and having to compromise.

Still, with the right dance or love partner, it's easier.