Are Great Dancers born or made?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Ok, ceroc produces many advanced dancers!

Question: How?

I'm not disputing it, I'm asking how it does it. Intermediate classes? Surely not. Style workshops? Er... CTA training? Dunno, haven't done it.

So I say again: exactly HOW does Ceroc produce advanced dancers?

Cos I want some.

Chris

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Question: How?

I'm not disputing it, I'm asking how it does it. Intermediate classes? Surely not. Style workshops? Er... CTA training? Dunno, haven't done it.

So I say again: exactly HOW does Ceroc produce advanced dancers?

Cos I want some.

Chris

Glad you asked, great question and I am sure my response will be controversial. Firstly are we talking advanced dancers ie those who know some tough moves or great dancers? I assume the latter

Great dancers come from two sources, a) naturally b) with huge amounts of practice.

I have been teachng, ooo a long time. Let me put my neck on the line here. I have spotted great dancers on their first or second night even if they could not dance. I have offered 5 people the chance to teach within a week of joining Ceroc. They are naturals. You can feel when you take someones hand if they have the "x-factor" touch.

I ran an x-factor workshop. The idea was to take dancers from one level to the next. It was a huge success. Everyone loved it. They all improved. Without wishing to upset anyone though, one person on that course will be a great dancers and that person was a great dancer before they did the course. The others will all be good intermediate dancers/advanced dancers

From my experience, great dancers are few and far between. You can tell who they are. You can tell as they walk onto the floor, even before they "draw a semi circle to the left" :devil:

People do not need advanced classes or workshops to become great dancers. IMO they probably never will. What they will become are competent dancers. Advanced dancers do not need advanced classes, they need good intermediate classes, workshops and a huge amount of time on the dance floor.

I can teach music interpretation till the cows come home, slick moves, technique etc etc, but you have to have the ability to use those tools before you start.

Ceroc is for enjoyment and pleasure. Take it too seriously and it fails. I asked a question today for a TV programme. "who has met a partner at Ceroc?" I have had back in 7 hours over 1100 replies. That is what Ceroc is, it is a social event, where you learn how to dance to a competent level. In a fun environment.

Going back to the original question, you either have it or you ain't. That does not mean you cannot be a good dancer, that means you may not be a great dancer. When I say great I am talking maybe less than 5% of Cerocers/MJers.

The teachers have to be great teachers, that is essential, if they are not, they are letting you down.

I see many dancers who say to me I went to a great class/workshop, dance holiday whatever and learnt so much. Does it improve their dancing, I hope they believe it does.

Great dancers dance less than 20 moves. That is how I see it. They dance with the music. You cannot teach this you have to feel it. You can teach breaks etc etc but you have to feel it. If you need to be taught it, .... well that speaks for itself. What you can learn is to appreciate it.

Don't confuse learning set pieces and think that is great dancing. It is not. To be a great dancer/artist you have to suffer. You have to work out. I challange you to find one "great" dancer who is not on massive amounts of painkillers and lives with oesteos and bandages.

Maybe you should define what you mean by advanced dancers. Maybe I have been too hard.

I hope this has gone someway to answer your question. If not, then come to one of my workshops:wink:

Adam

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Question: How?

I'm not disputing it, I'm asking how it does it. Intermediate classes? Surely not. Style workshops? Er... CTA training? Dunno, haven't done it.

So I say again: exactly HOW does Ceroc produce advanced dancers?

Cos I want some.

Chris

Dancers have ideas, share ideas, try ideas, discard the ones that do not cut it, generate new ideas from the ones that do.

There is no past super-race that were alone capable of inventing, developing, defining and propagating a form of dance. With the advent of video the process is accelerating. We learn from each other.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Glad you asked, great question and I am sure my response will be controversial.
Adam
For the record, I was greatly taken by Adam's post.

I don't know the guy, but what he wrote made a lot of sense to me.

Chris

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by cerocmetro

I have spotted great dancers on their first or second night even if they could not dance....
...you either have it or you ain't...

Adam

True. You can tell instantly. Its like when girls say "I don't know that move", its not about the move its about their responsiveness. I've danced with people who have never danced previously and never had to teach them a move, they just reacted. I know exactly what you mean.

But when I query their background 95% of them have had 10 years previous dance experience or 10 years experience in something involving lots of body control (tai-chi, martial arts, aerobics, gymnastics, ice-skating, rollerblading).

That might seem to indicate that anything can be taught.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
That might seem to indicate that anything can be taught.
Believing this is what keeps me alive, James.

Chris

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
True. You can tell instantly. Its like when girls say "I don't know that move", its not about the move its about their responsiveness. I've danced with people who have never danced previously and never had to teach them a move, they just reacted. I know exactly what you mean.
James didn't you win lots of dosh off me at my Masked Ball competition with one of my taxi dancers who had been dancing for only a few weeks?

Was that because she was a good dancer???:wink: The fact she was wearing less than what you were wearing on the beach today had nothing to do with it??

Adam
ps ask if Webb Ellis is around when next on the beach:devil:

[ChrisA]

Er... someone encouraged me to post this.


Originally posted by cerocmetro
Great dancers come from two sources, a) naturally b) with huge amounts of practice.


Hi Adam.

I like you. I reckon we'd get along well. I hate you, you b****d.

Guess what - I agree with all this stuff.

Guess what else? I'm not a great dancer by your definition. Guess how I feel, knowing that?



That is what Ceroc is, it is a social event, where you learn how to dance to a competent level. In a fun environment.

Don't give me this. Of course you're right - and, big time, you're wrong, and you know it.



The teachers have to be great teachers, that is essential, if they are not, they are letting you down.

In my life, I've noticed this... I end up teaching everything I do. I've taught organic chemistry to emergency case A-level and undergraduate students. I've taught some A-level maths and some other stuff for which, technically I'm unqualified.

Oh yeah, and I teach some beginners jive. Mostly I do a good job. And where I don't, I learn.

I love to teach. There is nothing that affirms my achievement more than the success of my students.

Will that do?



Maybe I have been too hard.

How would that be possible?


I hope this has gone someway to answer your question.
Not really. Though you've confirmed what I knew, deep down.

Oh yeah.. this "huge amounts of practice" thing. I can relate to that. Maybe I won't kill myself tonight.

Chris

[Minnie M]

Welcome to the thread Adam - it is very refreshing to read positive posts :kiss: :cheers: :hug:

Can we go inside now please :grin:

Your video really IS the best I have ever seen

[RobC]

Originally posted by Minnie M
Your video really IS the best I have ever seen
Perhaps I should start plugging my MJC7 video (and DVD) :devil:

Rob

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Great dancers come from two sources, a) naturally b) with huge amounts of practice. Agreed. Though I don't think anyone becomes great without a lot of practice. (or previous experience). But you then say:

Going back to the original question, you either have it or you ain't. That does not mean you cannot be a good dancer, that means you may not be a great dancer. When I say great I am talking maybe less than 5% of Cerocers/MJers. Don't know if I'm misunderstanding you, but you now seem to be saying no amount of practice will make you a great dancer. At the highest level I might agree (might not - I think it depends on the arena), but to be in the top 5%? I think that's very achievable for almost anyone who wants to put in the work. [It occurs to me you may be meaning only 5% have the potential to be great. In which case forget I said anything...]

As a data point, I've seen footage of Nigel competing in '98 (and in the teachers section, so he wasn't a beginner). The transformation between him then and even a couple of years later is absolutely huge. It shows what hard work can achieve.


The teachers have to be great teachers, that is essential, if they are not, they are letting you down.Just to be controversial, I'll make the observation that the people who win or place at championships are predominantly not Ceroc (UK) taught . What does that say about the teaching?

To be fair, a lot have done Ceroc and may have started there. But if you look at when they started *winning*, you find it's when they started getting outside input.


I see many dancers who say to me I went to a great class/workshop, dance holiday whatever and learnt so much. Does it improve their dancing, I hope they believe it does. I think a lot of stuff from workshops doesn't stick, or doesn't help. But the first time you learn "oh, you're supposed to do something different when the music changes", or that there's more to leading than moving your hands, or that there are other dance organizations than the one you normally go to; those are all important realisations.


Great dancers dance less than 20 moves. That is how I see it. They dance with the music. You cannot teach this you have to feel it. You can teach breaks etc etc but you have to feel it. If you need to be taught it, .... well that speaks for itself. What you can learn is to appreciate it.Sorry, but I think this is rubbish. The best dancer I have ever seen (was getting partnership offers from ballroom pros within 2 years of starting, and in terms of solo movement could blow away anyone I've seen in the Modern Jive world) didn't even know what a break was. It just wasn't in the concepts he was used to dealing with. He had to be taught.


Don't confuse learning set pieces and think that is great dancing. It is not. To be a great dancer/artist you have to suffer. You have to work out. I challange you to find one "great" dancer who is not on massive amounts of painkillers and lives with oesteos and bandages. Although I agree with the general sentiments, we seem to have moved a long way from "great ~= top 5% of MJ dancers" with that last sentence! [And though I know where you're coming from it's been almost a year since I saw my osteopath - sorting my technique helped a lot...]

Dave

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by RobC
Perhaps I should start plugging my MJC7 video (and DVD) :devil:
Rob

I will be a Bisley tonight Rob, let me have a copy and I will post my opinion of it - I know the content will be good as it was a great weekend :wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Great dancers dance less than 20 moves. That is how I see it. They dance with the music. You cannot teach this you have to feel it. You can teach breaks etc etc but you have to feel it. If you need to be taught it, .... well that speaks for itself. What you can learn is to appreciate it.

To be a great dancer/artist you have to suffer. You have to work out. I challange you to find one "great" dancer who is not on massive amounts of painkillers and lives with oesteos and bandages.

YIPPEE!!!

Just need to learn another 2 moves and I'll be great:waycool:

I agree with Adam, I'll probably never be 'great' but as I've progressed from 'hopeless beginner who couldn't find the beat' I've done less and less moves and more and more playing with the music.

And I have taken more and more painkillers and visited the Osteopath more - even had to go to A&E once after snapping my hamstring doing the splits:tears:




But, taking this seriously for a moment - but initially being slightly fippant and provocative. If what Adam says is true we might as well give up wanting to become great dancers - Adam can just hold our hand and advise us that we're going to be great - or that we're not. Which of course is partly right but an oversimplification. What Adam's talking about is people who will be very quick to learn becaue they've already 'got' a lot of what dance and lead-and-follow is all about. But us others can also 'get' it. There is a saying 'If one person can do something, anyone can learn to do it'. That doesn't mean we will be the 'greatest but we can be 'great' (I hope..). Us others will just need to work very hard learning what the already 'great' people know. And that could be a very long road for those of us that need to unlearn loads of stuff before they can even start learning. Starting dancing after 15 years of fencing and 12 years of Karate/Tae Kwon-do/Kung-Fu I first had to learn to call them my 'partner' not 'opponent'...

So can we all be great dancers? YES, YES, YES! But we might have to put in so much work everything else in our lives would have to go on hold while we do it. The question should be 'How much are we willing to give and give up to become great dancers?'.

There is another question which is 'Can we be the greatest dancer/couple?'. I have one answer and one question in response to this.

The answer for everyone except one person or couple is 'NO'. The reason is that there can only be one 'greatest' at any one time and that person/couple has learnt all the right things (in the eyes of the judges, but that's another thread) and practiced them more and been more motivated, etc. Did they have a head start due to 'natural' talent that wasn't due to 'nurture'? That is a whole other debate too.

And the question I mentioned above is 'Why would I want to be the greatest? - I only go dancing for fun and I want to have the greatest fun I can have.'


:devil: Serious mode off:devil:

And if Adam is correct about the 20 moves thing I now have a new explanation for why people turn up and sit out the lesson. They already know 19 moves and don't want to stop being great by learning another 3:wink:

Anyone else got any idea why people turn up in time for the lesson and positively don't do it - they even do this on a Tuesday at Hipsters. Do they think they're so good they don't need it?:devil:

[Minnie M]

Sorry I forgot this is outside and can't edit - should have added a IMHO to my dancing status - I know I am not a great dancer, but I am quite happy with that.

The moves that need to be taught at my level IMHO and for a follower, all seem to be 'wrap arounds' or lifts and drops - no one will want to do those with me anyway !

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Minnie M
Sorry I forgot this is outside and can't edit - should have added a IMHO to my dancing status - I know I am not a great dancer, but I am quite happy with that.

The moves that need to be taught at my level IMHO and for a follower, all seem to be 'wrap arounds' or lifts and drops - no one will want to do those with me anyway !

Excuse me ? but may i remind you that due to your ability as an experienced dancer, many times i have seduced you:wink: :hug:

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Mikey
Excuse me ? but may i remind you that due to your ability as an experienced dancer, many times i have seduced you:wink: :hug:

Ah yes I remember it well:drool: and in public too (your birthday dance at Hipsters) - you are a very strong bad boy :yum:

[Lory]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Great dancers come from two sources, a) naturally b) with huge amounts of practice.

I have been teachng, ooo a long time. Let me put my neck on the line here. I have spotted great dancers on their first or second night even if they could not dance. I have offered 5 people the chance to teach within a week of joining Ceroc. They are naturals. You can feel when you take someones hand if they have the "x-factor" touch.

Adam

I sadly have to agree with this (sadly, for the reason, I have to accept I'll never be 'great')

I can back Adams answer up though.......

I took my 16 (nearly 17) year old daughter for the first time to Ceroc a couple of months ago, she'd never done any form of partner dance before but she had done various other disciplines, like ballet, jazz, tap, street dance and gymnastics.

She hadn't a clue about the leads and the only advise I could offer her was, just look for the 'hand' grab it and let your self follow where it leads u.

I have to say, she looked fantastic, I know I'm biased but when someone does a triple spin with absolute ease, poise and balance on their first night, it has to add up to something!

She danced with Mikey and ended up making a huge mistake, sort of diving forwards into a drop but because she did it with such grace and poise (and attitude) and he's experienced enough to react and make something out of it, they ended up getting a round of applause and out of a mistake a 'new move' was born.

She's now been 4 times! Watch this space!

Natural body awareness, balance, style, rhythm, musical interpretation, little touches, like whipping the head on turns, hand movements, pointed feet and deportment are things that are instinctive in 'great' dancers.

If you have all that, your 75% on your way to making a 'great' dancer before you've ever even danced with a partner:cheers:

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by Lory
I sadly have to agree with this (sadly, for the reason, I have to accept I'll never be 'great')

I can back Adams answer up though.......

I took my 16 (nearly 17) year old daughter for the first time to Ceroc a couple of months ago, she'd never done any form of partner dance before but she had done various other disciplines, like ballet, jazz, tap, street dance and gymnastics.


If you have all that, your 75% on your way to making a 'great' dancer before you've ever even danced with a partner:cheers:

Does she want to think about teaching, for CerocMetro of course? I will be at Finchley next Monday night?

Whilst here Lory, you mentioned the advanced classes we tried. We gave up on them because suddenly everyone was an advanced dancer. It became clear the only way to cater to this market was in small groups, hence the X-factor classes I taught there. Were you aware of these. I took 20 people on a six week course. The idea was to take them up a level. Most of them went up several levels.

I am going to run it again in the New year. For you guys in Scotland, it included the music interp workshop I did in Perth and a whole lot more. It included, spinning, every week, lead and follow, posture, move progression, move selection, body control. We even discussed the effect of different shoes and dance floors and how they can effect your style.

It was as about advanced as it gets. What made it work so well was that everyone committed to the 6 weeks. Therefore they were there to do the classes and really wanted to learn.

What they learnt was great, but it is up to them to now put all the hard work in.

Let me offer a shred of hope to some I may have upset. Most people can become advanced dancers. A few can become great dancers. The majority of the few will have natural ability, the minority will be coached, BUT, they will be the ones who work at it.

Adam

[Mary]

Going back a bit I would quite like to respond to Adam's reply about 'teaching' dancers to become great dancers. Thoroughly enjoyed reading this Adam. You have a great way of expressing things.

I agree that some dancers have 'it' (bastards!) - wot, me, jealous? Nah. However to become great does take hard work, and a fair amount of teaching. OK, maybe teaching is the wrong word. I suppose I would use the word 'introducing' ideas such as playing with the music, using your body to create shapes, and connection. I think it's a question of teaching these ideas then their natural talent and ability lets these ideas come into visual shape dancing-wise. You cannot 'teach' improvisation, dance dialogue, but you can point people in the right direction. Some will take a few unsure, tottering steps,others may be able to trot reasonable comfortably, but those who have 'it' will be able to sprint without breaking sweat!! Don't you just hate 'em!:wink:

Gosh, I wish I could write. :what:

BTW. Great jivemasters video. Waxed a bit more lyrical about it in another thread. Loads of inspiration. Cheers mate.:cheers:

I think I will go now before I confuse myself.:sorry

M

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Lory
I took my 16 (nearly 17) year old daughter for the first time to Ceroc a couple of months ago, she'd never done any form of partner dance before but she had done various other disciplines, like ballet, jazz, tap, street dance and gymnastics.

I have to say, she looked fantastic, I know I'm biased but when someone does a triple spin with absolute ease, poise and balance on their first night, it has to add up to something!.Sounds like she's going to be a star! If she's done "ballet, jazz, tap, street dance and gymnastics" that puts her ahead of 95% of Ceroc dancers already. I know I found street jazz a harder test of my spinning than Ceroc ever was!

I think there are different "aspects" to being a good partner dancer - some that come to mind are lead and follow, quality of movement and musical interpretation. Of these, I think "quality of movement" is the one that's a killer to learn, and it's the thing that "natural" dancers seem to have in spades over the rest of us. I'm not clear how much it can be learned (Jazz/Street dancers seem to have it in spades - but how many give up those classes because they don't "have it"?). Is it something you can only really learn when you're young?

Looking at the "next generation" of Ceroc dancers - the people who started in their teens - I think we're going to see a completely new level of dancing. Just hope there's still a place for the rest of us...

Dave

[Lory]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Sounds like she's going to be a star! If she's done "ballet, jazz, tap, street dance and gymnastics" that puts her ahead of 95% of Ceroc dancers already. I know I found street jazz a harder test of my spinning than Ceroc ever was!


Dave

ooops I forgot one....'Body Locking'! I call it 'body popping' but I know nothing, I'm only a Mum
:blush:


Looking at the 'Next generation' of Ceroc dancers - the people who started in their teens - I think we're going to see a completely new level of dancing. Just hope there's still a place for the rest of us...

ABSOLUTELY! I think they will develop a whole new dance style all of their own. (Bens already started) How exciting! I just hope it doesn't get stifled by old fashioned rules and regulations in dance comps!

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Lory
I sadly have to agree with this (sadly, for the reason, I have to accept I'll never be 'great')


I have to say, she looked fantastic, I know I'm biased but when someone does a triple spin with absolute ease, poise and balance on their first night, it has to add up to something!

She danced with Mikey and ended up making a huge mistake, sort of diving forwards into a drop but because she did it with such grace and poise (and attitude) and he's experienced enough to react and make something out of it, they ended up getting a round of applause and out of a mistake a 'new move' was born.

She's now been 4 times! Watch this space!

Natural body awareness, balance, style, rhythm, musical interpretation, little touches, like whipping the head on turns, hand movements, pointed feet and deportment are things that are instinctive in 'great' dancers.



First of all, stop putting yourself down Lory, your a fabulous dancer and i never see you sitting out much , so what does that say :wink:

As for Holly, well, born talent there.. she does not have a buzz for jive at the moment, but if she gets it, having danced with just a few times i can honestly say she is going to cause a storm., she had ability, attitude and (taking after her mom) she looked good..:hug:

I doubt Adam would go far wrong if he ever got her to do the teachers course, because I think apart from her natural talent, she has the personality to be a real presence on stage...:waycool:

[Lory]

Originally posted by Mikey
First of all, stop putting yourself down Lory, your a fabulous dancer and i never see you sitting out much , so what does that say :wink:

As for Holly, well, born talent there.. she does not have a buzz for jive at the moment, but if she gets it, having danced with just a few times i can honestly say she is going to cause a storm., she had ability, attitude and (taking after her mom) she looked good..:hug:

I doubt Adam would go far wrong if he ever got her to do the teachers course, because I think apart from her natural talent, she has the personality to be a real presence on stage...:waycool: WOW! :kiss: :hug: :grin: :hug: :kiss:

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by Mikey
I doubt Adam would go far wrong if he ever got her to do the teachers course, because I think apart from her natural talent, she has the personality to be a real presence on stage...:waycool:

Funny you should say that Mikey, I have already asked:wink:

By the way Lory where did you start your dancing?

Adam

[Lory]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Funny you should say that Mikey, I have already asked:wink:

By the way Lory where did you start your dancing?

Adam

Finchley, of course! Its up the road from me! :grin:

[TheTramp]

So then. Out of the 'greats' on the Modern Jive scene. Who was actually 'born into it', and who put all the work in to get there?? (I have my own ideas. Interested to see if people agree. And I'll let you all go first :D ).

Steve

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by Lory
Finchley, of course! Its up the road from me! :grin:

Thanks Lory

Which of course is a CerocMetro venue. Lory please remind me about the free entries I owe you. :kiss:

Sorry Franck :devil:

Adam

[Sheepman]

I have a very short list of MJivers that I would put in the "Great" category, probably about 1/2%, and nowhere near the 5% that has been talked about. I would like to think myself amongst those top 5% after all the years of practice, workshops and fun, but no way can I consider myself great, and certainly not natural. You can spot those people with a natural way of moving pretty easily from the start. (My younger brother eg, but because of the years of practice, I can knock spots off him when it comes to dancing with a partner who looks good.)

So will anyone name those dancers that they think are currently "Great" (rather than those with the potential to be). I think we'd find it's a pretty short list. My theory is that there are are a few of those in that 1/2% where it is ALL down to hard work.

Lory, I also was most impressed when dancing with Holly on her 4th (?) outing. But I can't think of any instance where I've been staggered at the ability of a beginner, and then discovered they've never done any dancing. There always seems to be a history of ballroom, or ballet, or hip hop, or jazz, etc.

So I hold onto the hope that learning and practice makes a huge difference.

Greg

[Lory]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Thanks Lory

Which of course is a CerocMetro venue. Lory please remind me about the free entries I owe you. :kiss:

Adam

YOUR ON! :wink: :cheers:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by TheTramp
So then. Out of the 'greats' on the Modern Jive scene. Who was actually 'born into it', and who put all the work in to get there?? Looks like you beat me to it on this one Steve, but it's not like a lawyer to be so succinct :wink:

An extra thought on this, surely we consider as great those people that we look to for inspiration and consider far better than ourselves, so that list will change as we get better, (or worse :tears: )

Greg

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by TheTramp
So then. Out of the 'greats' on the Modern Jive scene. Who was actually 'born into it', and who put all the work in to get there?? (I have my own ideas. Interested to see if people agree. And I'll let you all go first :D ).

Steve

Steve, before I set about this one, can I define the rules, who said anything about being born into it?

I mentioned being naturals, is that what we are talking about?

Adam

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Steve, before I set about this one, can I define the rules, who said anything about being born into it?

I mentioned being naturals, is that what we are talking about?Guess so. I just took the wording from the thread title. :D

Steve

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Guess so. I just took the wording from the thread title. :D

Steve

I knew you were going to say that as I hit send. But in reality what is it to be, your call?
A

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
I knew you were going to say that as I hit send. But in reality what is it to be, your call?
A Isn't it the same thing? Being 'born into it', is the same thing as being a 'natural'. Least, in my book it is.... That's what I meant anyhow.

Steve

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Isn't it the same thing? Being 'born into it', is the same thing as being a 'natural'. Least, in my book it is.... That's what I meant anyhow.

Steve

Being born into it implies family thing, genetic, eg father a great ceroc teacher/dancer, take one of my many kids for example :tears:

or natural implies natural ability can feel rythme, can move body and has the all important sense of timing which required by any great sportsperson, dancer etc.

Maybe I'm being thick here :confused:

A

[Franck]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Which of course is a CerocMetro venue. Lory please remind me about the free entries I owe you. :kiss:

Sorry Franck :devil: Don't be sorry :wink:

CerocMetro is great, but has a long way to catch up with Ceroc Scotland :D :devil:

Ceroc Scotland: Gave a voice to CerocMetro!

Franck.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Isn't it the same thing? Being 'born into it', is the same thing as being a 'natural'. Least, in my book it is.... That's what I meant anyhow.

Born talent. Natural. Whatever.

I nominate Kate from Hipsters. (No, not that Kate).

Sheepy knows her better than I do, so I expect he'll comment. I had a couple of dances with her on Wednesday and she is awesome.

And only 19 I believe.

Chris

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Born talent. Natural. Whatever.

I nominate Kate from Hipsters. (No, not that Kate).

Sheepy knows her better than I do, so I expect he'll comment. I had a couple of dances with her on Wednesday and she is awesome.

And only 19 I believe.

Chris

Sorry Chris, nominate her for what? Is she a great dancer ie one of the 5% or 1/2% depending who is working out the numbers?

If yes, is she natural, (steady Franck) or designed?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Sorry Chris, nominate her for what? Is she a great dancer ie one of the 5% or 1/2% depending who is working out the numbers?

She's already easily into the top 5% of the dancers I've encountered.

I'd put money on her being a future 0.5%

I don't know for sure whether natural or designed, but I'd guess quite a lot of natural.

Chris

[Lory]

[
Originally posted by TheTramp
So then. Out of the 'greats' on the Modern Jive scene. Who was actually 'born into it', and who put all the work in to get there?? (I have my own ideas. Interested to see if people agree. And I'll let you all go first :D ).

Steve
This is sooooo difficult to answer but i'm going to try :waycool:

When most kids are little they go through phases of trying different things out, be it, football, swimming, tennis or Dance. Some have an inbuilt abuility, they just shine out!
In a class of 4year olds u can see the ones who have certain talents already!
Some have eye ball co-ordination, some have balance, some have it all!

The ones who have the natural abuilty, tend to be better and then they get encouraged, therefore enjoy it more, so practice more and so on and it spirals, so my answer is, probably most of the 'great' dancers have danced some other form of dance b4 and they practice hard but they were ALSO born with 'IT' :sad:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Being born into it implies family thing, genetic, eg father a great ceroc teacher/dancer, take one of my many kids for example :tears:

or natural implies natural ability can feel rythme, can move body and has the all important sense of timing which required by any great sportsperson, dancer etc.

Maybe I'm being thick here :confused: Ah. I see.

No. I don't believe that genetics do necessarily help (except in your kids of course Adam :wink: ). (Although, being exposed to the subject matter from a young age might well... ).

So, let's go with the 'natural' explanation then!

Steve

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by Lory
This is sooooo difficult to answer but i'm going to try :waycool:

When most kids are little they go through phases of trying different things out, be it, football, swimming, tennis or Dance. Some have an inbuilt abuility, they just shine out! Its strange that when a kid is good at one thing, they tend to be good at several

Some have eye ball co-ordination, some have balance, some have it all!

The ones who have the natural abuilty, tend to be better and then they get encouraged, therefore enjoy it more, so practice more and so on and it spirals, so my answer is, probably most of the 'great' dancers have danced some other form of dance b4 but they were ALSO born with 'IT' :sad:

Great points Lory, if you are good at something you do it more etc etc etc.

Therefore you have to have a degree of natural ability to start with, then lots of hard work.

Tiger woods is a natural golfer, he has been naturally good since playing every day from 3 years old :what:

Adam

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Born talent. Natural. Whatever.

I nominate Kate from Hipsters. (No, not that Kate).

Sheepy knows her better than I do, so I expect he'll comment. I had a couple of dances with her on Wednesday and she is awesome.

And only 19 I believe.

Chris

I've known Kate since she started as she's another great Brighton dancer. She did ballroom when she was younger and she was good from her first class. So, on the nature/nurture graph I place Kate towards the nurture end.

The question is, is there anyone out there who'd never done any other dance or sport that required coordination that has become a great dancer?

Kate is coming home from London in the Uni holidays and she'll be all mine, mine, MINE...

If I'm asked nicely I might bring her with me to Hipsters:devil: :wink:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Tiger woods is a natural golfer, he has been naturally good since playing every day from 3 years old :what:
So your saying it's natural because he started young? Isn't that the same as learning, but learning at a time when the mind and body is most receptive? Some will have genetic dispositions that don't allow them to be naturals eg bow legs (no names!), there are also theories about how touch can develop ability of movement right from the first days after birth (and therapists that have treatments to correct problems - I've been thinking of going :tears: )

Interesting that Kate should be the first name mentioned here, before Nigel, Nina, Amir, Tas, Sean, Andy, Rena. (There I've named some, but by no means my complete list). ChrisA obviously has Kate on his mind :wink:

Greg

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
If I'm asked nicely I might bring her with me to Hipsters:devil: :wink: Pretty please? (don't worry about next Tuesday 'cos I'm working on the bar), and Bookham (27th) and Beaconsfield (26th), please!
Oh but don't bother on the last 2 if I end up going skiing!

Did I say PLEASE! :wink:

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Interesting that Kate should be the first name mentioned here, before Nigel, Nina, Amir, Tas, Sean, Andy, Rena. (There I've named some, but by no means my complete list). ChrisA obviously has Kate on his mind :wink:

Sheepster :reallymad

Tas was also on my list - I'd guess she's a natural, but I don't know her background - nor the others', although they're all pretty amazing.

[Lory]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

The question is, is there anyone out there who'd never done any other dance or sport that required coordination that has become a great dancer?


I doubt it!

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Lory
I doubt it!

Your wrong there lory....

I am 39 and only started dancing 11 years ago.. and from the age of 8 till 16 I stideied Kung Fu privately gaining 7 Blacl belts in 7 forms.. after that i was a British freestyle rollersakting champion for 2 years and after that I did Shotokan karate and gained 2nd Dan... No where had i ever done any dance till 11 years ago...

I believe my own balance, co-ordination and ability to spin as I do all stems from those sports in my past...

And if i am not mistaken, Mr Lampert also did Karate ?:cheers:

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Mikey
Your wrong there lory....

I am 39 and only started dancing 11 years ago.. and from the age of 8 till 16 I stideied Kung Fu privately gaining 7 Blacl belts in 7 forms.. after that i was a British freestyle rollersakting champion for 2 years and after that I did Shotokan karate and gained 2nd Dan... No where had i ever done any dance till 11 years ago...

I believe my own balance, co-ordination and ability to spin as I do all stems from those sports in my past...

And if i am not mistaken, Mr Lampert also did Karate ?:cheers:

And NO I cannot type to save my life regardless of all that either..LOL

[Will]

Originally posted by Mikey
And if i am not mistaken, Mr Lampert also did Karate ?:cheers: Origammi to be precise...

[Bill]

Something similar was debated on another thread and I have to agree withthe view that most, if not all, really great dancers on te jive scene probably have natural ability but have become as good as they are through very hard work.

DavidB has indicated how much time he and Lily spend before competitions and he would also argue that he's not a 'natural' and has had to work to be as good as he is. He might be the exception that proves the rule. :D

Unfortunately, the vast majority of cerocers/ jivers will never have the time to be as good as they really could be because of work/family/ social commitments and I agree with Adam that most folk are happy to dance and have a social night out. Even most folk who compete know they won't win but do it for fun.

Teachers can make a difference but you can teach a 'natural' dancer how to break, how to perfect moves etc but if someone has no real ability or rhythm they can learn how it should be done but find it very difficult to hear the breaks in a song when freestyling.

I've seen and danced with some really lovely and very good dancers all over the country and would categorise many of the women as very good but the 'greats' would still be the likes of Lily, Nina, Viktor, Nigel etc...... And yes they all work very hard at dancing but I'd argue that they were already naturally gifted and so the hard work pays real dividends.

I could practice 20 hours a week and although I'd learn mvoes and polish my technique I'd never ever come close to men like Viktor, Nigel, Dan .......... I don't have the time, my partner lives over 100 miles away and I know I'd never reach that level. But at least we can all keep doing the best we can and having fun - still the most important part of dancing :cheers: :D

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Lory
I doubt it!

Sorry Lory,

I misread your answer to the qoute By McTo...eerrmmm McGregor... My opolgies hun:kiss:

[Lory]

Originally posted by Mikey
Sorry Lory,

I misread your answer to the qoute By McTo...eerrmmm McGregor... My opolgies hun:kiss:

No problem :hug:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Lory
I doubt it!

Ageed:hug:

I think all the truly great modern jivers have something of their other skill in what they do at modern jive. The most obvious example of this, to my mind, is Amir. Probably before the music has even started you've marked him out as a ballet dancer.

Lory, maybe you and I should start going to ballet - then I could, quite legitimately, wear tights, act camp and carry you on my shoulder:wink:

[Will]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Ageed:hug:

I think all the truly great modern jivers have something of their other skill in what they do at modern jive. The most obvious example of this, to my mind, is Amir.
Very astute of you Andy. It is a little known fact that back in New Zealand, Amir was a Gurning champion! :what:

Will

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Will
Very astute of you Andy. It is a little known fact that back in New Zealand, Amir was a Gurning champion! :what:

And is this DavidB in the British Gurning semi-final?


http://193.203.244.221/images/gurner.jpg

[Jon]

So does being a natural dancer make a difference whether your a man or a lady?

If your a lady you have to be able to follow the mans lead but for a guy who's never danced before he has to learn moves & learn how to lead. So how can he be a natural dancer from day one?. After he's learned this then prehaps his natural talent comes out and he becomes a dancer with the ability to lead anything and make it look good.


I read Adams post with great interest and it makes so much sense. Before dancing with anyone I think you can always tell how they will dance just by holding their hand.

I also think a natural dancer who would be in the top 5% at least, is someone who doesn't realise that they are a great dancer until other people start telling them they are.

[Emma]

When I was first at art college we were constantly told that sucess was a matter of 1% inspiration(or talent) and 99% perspiration.

It's all very well being talented but you have to *do* something with it. Certainly in the art world most of those who are successful have had to be incredibly persistant and pushy with their talent, constantly keeping themsleves in the spotlight and making new opportunities for themselves. I see no reason why the dance world would be any different (maybe it is? How?) certainly all of the big dance 'names' that I can think of in MJ (including Adam ;) ) have an unusual degree of self-confidence and clearly work extremely hard at what they do.

Um, I think what I meant there was that there's no point being a natural or being talented if you don't work at it. :nice:

[Lory]

Originally posted by Emma

Um, I think what I meant there was that there's no point being a natural or being talented if you don't work at it. :nice:
Oh yes, agreed!

Talent needs to be nurtured and there's no way anyone is born naturally 'knowing' the leads for certain moves but you'd never make a 'great' dancer out of someone who can't even clap in time to a piece of music for instance, no matter how much effort they put in!

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Emma
certainly all of the big dance 'names' that I can think of in MJ (including Adam ;) ) have an unusual degree of self-confidence and clearly work extremely hard at what they do.
I agree, but which came first? the chicken or the egg?
Is the self-confidence a bi-product of being great, or is it the self-confidence that leads them to become great?

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by Sheepman
So your saying it's natural because he started young? Isn't that the same as learning, but learning at a time when the mind and body is most receptive?

Actually no. Perhaps I was a little too sarcastic. What I was saying that if you practice that hard from that age, you can be good at what ever you want to be good at provided you have the basics requirements.

The majority of us started Ceroc too late to take it too seriously in terms of being "Great"dancers. We have commitments, work, families, lives.

Very few are able to commit 7 days a week to it. Work out to tone the muscles, study videos and dancers for hours and hours. Yes it can all be taught/learnt, but how many of you are prepared to go through that.

By the way Ben, Alina, Heather Mc, Mick, Lydia, Linda B, Lily B, Robert C, Lisa (aberdeen), Simon Selmon should be added to that list.

Both myself and Nigel are almost exceptions. We are both accountants, well me not any more. For both of us Ceroc was our first introduction to dancing. (Nigel did confrim this to me today). Both of us gained our rythme through playng instruments from an early age.

Why did we both get hooked on Ceroc, we were both single and very quickly found that men who could dance were far more attractive. (We both needed the help) Nigel then stuck a hat on his head and went onto do other styles of dancing, I got married, twice and was quite happy with Ceroc, although I have dabbled in Salsa, Lindy, Tango, etc etc since then. Also watched many hours of the Simpsons.

Both of us were however so sad that I used to leave work early 5 days a week to be the first at the class, I was also the last to leave. I did not miss a class for a year. Yes that includes the beginners classes.

I am always amazed when I ask advanced dancers to help me with beginners workshops. Guaranteed they will say, "I cannot believe how much I learnt" There's a surprise when I feel I learn something new everytime I teach a beginners workshop.

To me, to do the beginners classes is still part of the process of learning. It is also both sociable and helps new commers enjoy the dancing. It also helps keep the business going.

Both Nigel and myself are not natural dancers, we have both worked hard at it. Watch Nigels face in any competition or performance and the concentration is intense. Mandy said something very interesting to me the other day. She told me she was dancing with some guy, (actually i believe he is an accountant) who I always thought of as good. She said he had a whole conversation during the dance. He did not stop talking. He still hit every break, moved on every accent, used the music. He had no idea of what he was doing, he was not thinking or concentrating. Mandy told me he was one of the most natural dancers she had ever danced with. She said he could be GREAT, but he was happy enjoying the dancing.

There are many dancers out there who could be great. But maybe if they were, they would no longer enjoy it.

James Cronin never wanted to run a competition as he believed it would take the pureness away from Ceroc. I always dissagreed with him. I now believe he was so so right.

But we now have our competitions, heck I even run one. Have I mentioned the JIvemasters video yet???:grin:

Why are you all so obsessed with becoming great dancers? What did you want when you started dancing? To be great dancers, or to have a great night out? When where did that change? Personally I wish some of the "great dancers" sorry lets tone that down, very advanced dancers, sorry lets say what we mean, people who think they are advanced dancers, would climb off their horses and share their skills with others. Join in the beginners classes, dance with beginners.

To be fair, the "great dancers" do this. It is the ones who think they are great who do not.

Sorry coming back to my point, Tiger Woods is the Greatest" because he is both natural and totally devoted. Also lucky, did we mention luck?

You get out what you put in. You also need the basic requirements, timing, comprehension, movability, arrogance, a decent body, half decent looks, style (not dancing, but appearance), hygene, health. You also need one more thing, the desire to be great.

Adam

[Gadget]

In my mind, a "Great" male dancer is one that I look to for inspiration and to steal some of their greatness for myself.
A "Great" female dancer is one that glides and flows on the floor; becoming an extension to the lead and the music.

"Great" dancers are admired by all and can lose themselves, their partner and the audience in the music.

This is what I aspire to, and this is why I want to be a "Great" dancer.

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Minnie M
Can we go inside now please :grin:


Thank you :cheers: :kiss: :hug:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
James Cronin never wanted to run a competition as he believed it would take the pureness away from Ceroc. I always dissagreed with him. I now believe he was so so right.

I was turned right off dancing by doing it competitively in my former life. Many years later, as I start to get a bit better at jive, people are starting to say, "hey, why don't you enter some of the comps"... it's a seductive idea, certainly.

I entered my first ever jive comp last night - DWAS at Uxbridge. Got to the final but not placed.

It brought back a lot of memories - some good ones, some bad ones, and quite a lot of angst.

Very mixed feelings about competing, I have to say. I still want to be as good as I can be - just as much as I ever did, in fact maybe even more so. But I'm not sure I want to get back into wanting to win stuff again.

I know no-one's holding a gun to my head. Just musing, really.

Chris

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Franck
Ceroc Scotland: Gave a voice to CerocMetro!
and gave dancing feet to so many others - Thanks Franck :kiss: :hug:

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gadget
I agree, but which came first? the chicken or the egg?
Is the self-confidence a bi-product of being great, or is it the self-confidence that leads them to become great? I think they feed one another, but I believe you have to have a degree of self-confidence (or an ability to push yourself, if that's the same thing) in the first place. And I think that *working* upon what you do is absolutely crucial, because otherwise you stagnate.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Emma
I believe you have to have a degree of self-confidence (or an ability to push yourself, if that's the same thing) in the first place.
Wow, now that's a thought.

I've never thought of myself as self-confident, but if I'm aiming at something I want, I can definitely push myself, and I can continue to push myself even when it's going terribly and I'm feeling really bad.

Are they the same thing? I'm not sure they are, because sometimes (not often in dancing) I do feel confident about something, and it doesn't feel the same as when I'm dragging myself stubbornly towards some goal despite all appearances that I'll never get there...

Chris

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Emma
I think they feed one another, but I believe you have to have a degree of self-confidence (or an ability to push yourself, if that's the same thing) in the first place. And I think that *working* upon what you do is absolutely crucial, because otherwise you stagnate.


Hey you have hit the nail right on the head there luv :waycool: Only problem is that Brilliant statement at this time of the morning makes Emma a dull girl!! I haven't had me breakfast yet :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Jon]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Why are you all so obsessed with becoming great dancers? What did you want when you started dancing? To be great dancers, or to have a great night out? When where did that change?

Speaking for myself what I wanted when I started was too make new friends after I moved house. I'd always been musical but to me dancing was something men just didnt do until I saw my dad doing jive. Then the wow factor hit me and thought why not give it a try and never looked back. But now I have lots of friends and make more all the time, I enjoy taxiing and teaching moves and now I have confidence in dancing I'm on a quest to become one of the 0.5% because I love dancing, but I dont think I'm there yet :tears:

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
What I was saying that if you practice that hard from that age, you can be good at what ever you want to be good at provided you have the basics requirements. I think one thing we're losing sight of is that "basic requirements", "good", and "great" are all relative, not absolutes.

If you look at ballet, you have tens of thousands of girls training from a young age. A lot will fall by the wayside, but thousands of them will audition at, say 16. At this point they are probably all in the top 0.1% or so of dancers. Only a very few will make it to be a professional dancer, only a very few of those will become a principal dancer. Of those, only a few will be invited around the world. And only one or two of those will be a Darcey Bussell, or a Sylvie Gullem. And only time will tell whether they make it to join the ranks of Anna Pavlova or Margot Fonteyn.

Who had the basic requirements? Who is good? Who is great?

Going back to modern jive, everything being relative has it's upside - the office party usually has all of us getting the "great dancer" accolade!

I also don't know what you mean by the 'X-factor'? If you asked me, I'd say it's the ability to do the simplest moves and make them look amazing. But again, it's not all or nothing. Clearly Viktor has a lot of it. But I did a street dance class with Dan, where he did a single turn, "just going through the motions". And then explained how to "perform it", and showed us the difference. It was absolutely astounding - orders of magnitude beyond anything I'd seen before. The other interesting bit was that a lot of it was "taught" - look here, make eye contact over there, etc... I'm not convinced I could do it like him, even with practice, but I'm sure I could get a lot better at it.

Dave

[JamesGeary]

By born I mean emphasis on natural talent, as opposed to emphasis on training.

There are tens of thousands of people across the country who trained in ballet from age 8 onwards in an attempt to go professional by getting into a top ballet school (i mean one of the full-time ones with the associated dance companies). As stated maybe 0.1% or less make it.

Amir didn't take up Ballet until in his 20s, and then with a few years of occasional evening classes and no noticeable sacrifice, got a full scholarship to one of the top ballet schools in London. Michael Flatley would be another example of a pensioner starting late.

They prove that top dancers, that 0.1%, can be born into it rather than made.

Viktor is the top ceroc or modern jive dancer pretty much anywhere. Mick was Viktor's boss before he got into dancing. Mick is now UK Ceroc's best dancer (based on the jivemasters 2003, buy the video www.cerocmetro.com - grin). I find it statistically impossible that both Mick and Viktor were in that top 0.1% born, given that they worked together and were friends before they got involved with ceroc. Put it this way, of the 10,000 people doing ceroc every night of the week across the UK, isn't it rather odd that the 2 top ceroc dancers in the country were friends before they got into dancing.

They both went along to ceroc together for years and years with Mick always learning from Viktor. So Mick proves that top dancers, that 0.1%, can get there through good teachers and practise.

[Will]

Originally posted by David Franklin
I also don't know what you mean by the 'X-factor'?
Dave.... You mean you danced with Brittany for several months doing a team cabaret and you don't know what the "X-Factor" is??? :grin:

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Will
Dave.... You mean you danced with Brittany for several months doing a team cabaret and you don't know what the "X-Factor" is??? :grin: Actually, I never danced with Brittany... It was enough being in the same room as her...

But I was also wondering what Adam would define it as...

Dave

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Actually, I never danced with Brittany... It was enough being in the same room as her...

But I was also wondering what Adam would define it as...

Dave

Would that be dancing in the same room as Brittany or what x-factor is?

Adam

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Gadget
A "Great" female dancer is one that glides and flows on the floor; becoming an extension to the lead and the music. I couldn't disagree with that, but in addition they will be prepared to take the initiative (preferably not "taking over"), adding their own interpretation to the music, giving the "leader" the challenge of complementing this. It can be obvious, or oh so subtle, but when you both react in identical fashion to something in the music it is just sublime!

Greg

[Jon L]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Actually no. Perhaps I was a little too sarcastic. What I was saying that if you practice that hard from that age, you can be good at what ever you want to be good at provided you have the basics requirements.

The majority of us started Ceroc too late to take it too seriously in terms of being "Great"dancers. We have commitments, work, families, lives.

Very few are able to commit 7 days a week to it. Work out to tone the muscles, study videos and dancers for hours and hours. Yes it can all be taught/learnt, but how many of you are prepared to go through that.

By the way Ben, Alina, Heather Mc, Mick, Lydia, Linda B, Lily B, Robert C, Lisa (aberdeen), Simon Selmon should be added to that list.

Both myself and Nigel are almost exceptions. We are both accountants, well me not any more. For both of us Ceroc was our first introduction to dancing. (Nigel did confrim this to me today). Both of us gained our rythme through playng instruments from an early age.

Why did we both get hooked on Ceroc, we were both single and very quickly found that men who could dance were far more attractive. (We both needed the help) Nigel then stuck a hat on his head and went onto do other styles of dancing, I got married, twice and was quite happy with Ceroc, although I have dabbled in Salsa, Lindy, Tango, etc etc since then. Also watched many hours of the Simpsons.

Both of us were however so sad that I used to leave work early 5 days a week to be the first at the class, I was also the last to leave. I did not miss a class for a year. Yes that includes the beginners classes.

I am always amazed when I ask advanced dancers to help me with beginners workshops. Guaranteed they will say, "I cannot believe how much I learnt" There's a surprise when I feel I learn something new everytime I teach a beginners workshop.

To me, to do the beginners classes is still part of the process of learning. It is also both sociable and helps new commers enjoy the dancing. It also helps keep the business going.

Both Nigel and myself are not natural dancers, we have both worked hard at it. Watch Nigels face in any competition or performance and the concentration is intense. Mandy said something very interesting to me the other day. She told me she was dancing with some guy, (actually i believe he is an accountant) who I always thought of as good. She said he had a whole conversation during the dance. He did not stop talking. He still hit every break, moved on every accent, used the music. He had no idea of what he was doing, he was not thinking or concentrating. Mandy told me he was one of the most natural dancers she had ever danced with. She said he could be GREAT, but he was happy enjoying the dancing.

There are many dancers out there who could be great. But maybe if they were, they would no longer enjoy it.

James Cronin never wanted to run a competition as he believed it would take the pureness away from Ceroc. I always dissagreed with him. I now believe he was so so right.

But we now have our competitions, heck I even run one. Have I mentioned the JIvemasters video yet???:grin:

Why are you all so obsessed with becoming great dancers? What did you want when you started dancing? To be great dancers, or to have a great night out? When where did that change? Personally I wish some of the "great dancers" sorry lets tone that down, very advanced dancers, sorry lets say what we mean, people who think they are advanced dancers, would climb off their horses and share their skills with others. Join in the beginners classes, dance with beginners.

To be fair, the "great dancers" do this. It is the ones who think they are great who do not.

Sorry coming back to my point, Tiger Woods is the Greatest" because he is both natural and totally devoted. Also lucky, did we mention luck?

You get out what you put in. You also need the basic requirements, timing, comprehension, movability, arrogance, a decent body, half decent looks, style (not dancing, but appearance), hygene, health. You also need one more thing, the desire to be great.

Adam

I have just found this thread. Adam your posts make a lot of sense.

I realise my limitations, I am not the most gifted, naturally co-ordinated person. In fact throughout my life I have been plagued with some co-ordination problems, and doing jive/ceroc has been a revelation. That's why for the first time enterring the intermediates section and getting into the second round at the first attempt was for me an achievement.

This year a lot more people have said to me that I have improved enormously. These include people like Alina, Lily and Nina - not a bad list of people to tell you are getting better.

That said there are some people who are naturals out there. I was dancing with someone at Ceroc Surrey who had fab rhythm and whem I asked how long she had been dancing she said 8 months.

One point I will say again, the really great natural dancers will know they are good and take time to encourage those who are trying to get better. Viktor is good with beginners so to is Nigel. I have no time for dancers who perceive themselves as being great and refuse to dance with developing people. This is my definition of Cliques by the way.

[stewart38]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Agreed. Though I don't think anyone becomes great without a lot of practice. (or previous experience). But you then say:
Don't know if I'm misunderstanding you, but you now seem to be saying no amount of practice will make you a great dancer. At the highest level I might agree (might not - I think it depends on the arena), but to be in the top 5%? I think that's very achievable for almost anyone who wants to put in the work. [It occurs to me you may be meaning only 5% have the potential to be great. In which case forget I said anything...]

Dave



No amount of practice or time will put many people into the top 5%. Same for anything I'm afraid. I still think dancing is 50% natural ability,so hard work may put you into top 50% if you have no natural ability.

The best dancers do cira 20 moves they know more but 20 is enough

[DavidB]

Originally posted by stewart38
No amount of practice or time will put many people into the top 5%. Same for anything I'm afraid. I still think dancing is 50% natural ability,so hard work may put you into top 50% if you have no natural ability.Only when things are taken close to their physical limit does natural ability become the limiting factor.

Modern Jive is nowhere near this limit. If you have people who can teach you, and you have the resources and dedication to put into it, then just about anyone could win Blackpool etc. (Why anyone would bother is a completely different topic.)

David

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by DavidB
Only when things are taken close to their physical limit does natural ability become the limiting factor.

Modern Jive is nowhere near this limit. If you have people who can teach you, and you have the resources and dedication to put into it, then just about anyone could win Blackpool etc. Sorry David. Don't agree with this statement at all.

Unless you are taking it to the nth (and thus totally unrealistic) degree. Yes, an infinite of moneys with an infinite amount of time would write the complete works of Shakespeare. And yes, I suppose that possibly anyone could win MJ competitions, if they had an unlimited amount of resource and time.

In practise though, I think that it's highly unlikely....

Are you saying that the same couldn't be said of WCS competitions too though?

And if not, can you please say exactly what the difference between the two styles of dance that would preclude that happening would be then.

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Sorry David. Don't agree with this statement at all.

Unless you are taking it to the nth (and thus totally unrealistic) degree. Yes, an infinite of moneys with an infinite amount of time would write the complete works of Shakespeare. And yes, I suppose that possibly anyone could win MJ competitions, if they had an unlimited amount of resource and time.

In practise though, I think that it's highly unlikely....

Are you saying that the same couldn't be said of WCS competitions too though?

And if not, can you please say exactly what the difference between the two styles of dance that would preclude that happening would be then.

Steve You could do it in WCS. Or possibly even in Ballroom. It is just that the bar is so much higher in these styles that you would have to put more time, effort and money in.

In Modern Jive most couples who do well in competitions get together for a few weeks before a comp. They might practice a couple of times a week, and in extreme cases try to get one or two private lessons. But generally they learn things from classes, workshops and trial & error.

Your average competitive amateur ballroom couple would be getting one or two lessons a week, practicing most days, and competing every week. And still manage to fit in a day job. They might have been doing this for several years.

Professional ballroom couples competitors work even harder - it is their day job. They have to take very detailed exams over the course of several years to gain their teaching and judging qualifications. The top judges know exactly what they are looking for, and the standards they expect from the competitors. The top professionals still take regular lessons (ie learning from the trial and error of other people.)

WCS at an amateur level would be somewhere in the middle - with a mixture of social dancing, lessons and competitions. Most WCS dancers we know (even ones who have no wish to compete) take either regular or occasional private lessons.

WCS at a professional level is not quite as 'developed' as ballroom. There isn't the competition (and therefore influences) from many countries. You get 30 couples in a big comp, not 300 like in ballroom. But there are still several couples who dance and teach WCS at a very high level for a living.

At the very top level I'd rate ballroom dancers as having the best technique of any partner dancers. WCS and Lindy have specialised more in musical interpretation than absolute technique. Modern Jive doesn't come close, even in NZ :devil:

If someone really worked at it (like an amateur ballroom couple), it would take maybe 6 months for someone with lots of talent, maybe a year for an average dancer, and maybe 2 years for a Man City fan. But you are right - it is unlikely. I don't know of any modern jive dancers who would want to stop social dancing for a year just to win one competition.

David

[Will]

Originally posted by DavidB
If someone really worked at it (like an amateur ballroom couple), it would take maybe 6 months for someone with lots of talent, maybe a year for an average dancer, and maybe 2 years for a Man City fan.
If we were to speculate how long it would take a Leeds Utd fan to win a MJ competition, we would first have to take into account the time it would take him to sell enough personal belongings to raise the funds to enter a competition in the first place, however we could take some time off the estimate by remembering that the Leeds Utd fan would probably injure several key competitors during the competition, so making the job of winning a lot easier.

[stewart38]

Originally posted by DavidB
Only when things are taken close to their physical limit does natural ability become the limiting factor.

Modern Jive is nowhere near this limit. If you have people who can teach you, and you have the resources and dedication to put into it, then just about anyone could win Blackpool etc. (Why anyone would bother is a completely different topic.)

David


David couldn't we approach a TV company and test your theory ?

It just wouldn't work. Take snooker a really good score for me is 25 to 30. I bet with the best training in the world I could get up to and assuming I started young 70 or 80 but no way 147

[Graham]

Originally posted by stewart38
It just wouldn't work. Take snooker a really good score for me is 25 to 30. I bet with the best training in the world I could get up to and assuming I started young 70 or 80 but no way 147 Yes but David's point is that in modern jive the equivalent of the best ever break is around 75: you don't need to be able to score 147 to be competitive, just more than 60-70.

[Bill]

I agree entirely with Adam's last post although I wonder if he and Nigel are not really natural dancers. As musicians they wil lboth have a sense of musicality and tempo which is a great start.

I still believe that the 'great' ( and we're on subjective ground again) dancers , just as the great golfers, snooker players etc.... have nautural or innate ability that , when developed and encouraged makes them great.

For the rest of us we have to do with what we have. Few of us have the time or money to spend improvig even though we might like to and as others have said, for most jivers the dance night is about having fun and meeting friends not competing or reaching the top level.

There's a difference I think in simply wanting to improve and seeing some of the best dancers and teachers can be inspirational and encourage us to learn more. An average dancer can improve on technique and number of moves but very few can become the next Nigel, Viktor etc.........

Sometimes I feel I'd like to spend hours practising so I could improve but then I realise I just don't have the time to and I'd value the return for the investment. Maybe I'm just lazy and hope thatthe few workshops I go to will help develop some style and improve the moves I can remember. :rolleyes:

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Graham
Yes but David's point is that in modern jive the equivalent of the best ever break is around 75: you don't need to be able to score 147 to be competitive, just more than 60-70.


Guess I better start practicing :grin: I'll let you know the outcome in the next ceroc champs or the 2010 ones.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Very mixed feelings about competing, I have to say. Still got mixed feelings Chris?

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB

Modern Jive doesn't come close, even in NZ :devil:

arghgghhghghgrrghgh


Originally posted by DavidB

If someone really worked at it (like an amateur ballroom couple), it would take maybe 6 months for someone with lots of talent to win blackpool/ceroc

I think its not that easy. I do believe any able bodied couple could win it, but I think it takes a lot more time and far more years of practise.

In Australia there are many ceroc couples that practise every day with each other (damn competitive bunch) and have lots of private coaching (they need to because of their aerial emphasis) over several years and have previous dance histories of 5 years plus. They are probably about the same standard as the best people in the UK.

Yet I've seen people get to Open or A Grade Ballroom from nothing in 2 years of similar dedication. The difference in the standard between ceroc and ballroom is not as great as you think.

Ballroom is much more athletic and looks flasher, but ceroc (or indeed salsa) takes almost just as much time to get very good at. There is no way around that.

Unless you are talking the choreographed section in ceroc/blackpool. Anyone could win that with a good choreographer and 1 month total dedication. Or maybe my lack of experience in choreographed competitions makes it seem easier than it is, I don't know!!

[Dan]

As an ordinary joe with no claim to any dancing knowledge and expertise, I would venture to make two observations from the sidelines.

A great dancer is one who can bring the best out of any partner and not one who practices with a fixed partner to look good in a set routine in specific competition.

Ceroc and even MJ are relatively new dance forms and as such there are few dancers actually born into the dance. With the increasing popularity of MJ in general and the street credibility that it gets from some of the very good very young dancers, we are likely to see more amazing talent in the future and maybe even a Tiger Woods equivalent.

(back to my hole)

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by DavidB
Still got mixed feelings Chris?
:nice: :blush: :confused:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
:nice: :blush: :confused:

Yep, look mixed to me:wink: :waycool: :hug:

p.s. Well done Chris:cheers:

[Dan]

Originally posted by ChrisA
:nice: :blush: :confused:

:rofl: :tears:


:cheers:

[Boomer]

Originally posted by ChrisA
:nice: :blush: :confused:

Ummm Chris....think you missed :tears:

:D

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Boomer
Ummm Chris....think you missed :tears:

[foxylady]

Assume from all the cryptic allusions, that ChrisA competed in and won something ! Chris - well deserved I am sure, and well done - what was it ?

Will you be at hipsters on tues ?

:cheers:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by foxylady
Assume from all the cryptic allusions, that ChrisA competed in and won something ! Chris - well deserved I am sure, and well done - what was it ?

Well, I was tremendously fortunate to be partnered with a lovely lady and fab dancer called Anita in Twyford's DWAS on Friday night.

But the real stars of the show were Will and Amir, who danced with one another in the judges competition, and were absolutely brilliant.

It was a great night, lots of great people there - thanks to BillCo and Bex for putting on such a great evening.


Will you be at hipsters on tues ?

Yep !!

Chris

[Martin]

Originally posted by JamesGeary


I think its not that easy. I do believe any able bodied couple could win it, but I think it takes a lot more time and far more years of practise.

In Australia there are many ceroc couples that practise every day with each other (damn competitive bunch) and have lots of private coaching (they need to because of their aerial emphasis) over several years and have previous dance histories of 5 years plus. They are probably about the same standard as the best people in the UK.

Dedication surely pays off. As a late comer to Ceroc, started when I was 30, yes flexible in body and have natural timing - no ballet:sorry

As to Aussie, I do not know of any couples who practice every day, BUT I do know of girls who dance every day (yes only girls, not met a guy yet who does the every day thing to my knowledge)

Many of the girls have previous dance experience but not many of the guys.

Lots of private coaching, have not seen it myself, enlighten me with names... Please

Having said that I do "friendly coaching" of several couples who want to compete and I also corrie for them (for no cash, just friendship).

Same standard as the best in the UK - yes I would say so, due to pure hard work. - no surprise Sydney has the reputation it does (the reason I am here).
Incedently let's take for example N&N - hard work they do the same, pure hard work and comitment.

Also no surprise you are starting to see your best dancers coming to Aussie (Simon, Donna, Viktor - has plans...)

david and Lily - still working on them :D
Well Clayton and Janine, they have to come back some time.

:cheers:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Martin

Lots of private coaching, have not seen it myself, enlighten me with names... Please


louise & adrian in Melbourne, and regular coaching from the ceroc melbourne franchisee owner. (It pays off too, I looked on the internet and they put NickyH & Robert into 2nd place in both freestyle and cabaret, and my spies tell me it was done convincingly too, not an easy task)

Also there is a couple from Australia that came and competed over here a 4? years ago at the ceroc uk champs, and came 2nd when Janine and Clayton won I was told that they practise every day (or did, i don't know if they still dance, I think they were a real couple and split up). I have heard that there are many others that do that level of practising in Australia, but if there aren't, you would know.

But my original point is, that people who look natural, got there by practise they didn't start off like that, even in MJ. And that means almost anyone can get there if they want to put in the time.

Most the best dancers I know have at some point for a year or so danced almost every day. That includes salsa too. There are no videos of Viktor for example looking like a beginner when he started, but when he started, he was dancing 7 days a week.

[adss]

louise & adrian in Melbourne, and regular coaching from the ceroc melbourne franchisee owner. (It pays off too, I looked on the internet and they put NickyH & Robert into 2nd place in both freestyle and cabaret, and my spies tell me it was done convincingly too, not an easy task)

Also there is a couple from Australia that came and competed over here a 4? years ago at the ceroc uk champs, and came 2nd when Janine and Clayton won I was told that they practise every day (or did, i don't know if they still dance, I think they were a real couple and split up). I have heard that there are many others that do that level of practising in Australia, but if there aren't, you would know.

But my original point is, that people who look natural, got there by practise they didn't start off like that, even in MJ. And that means almost anyone can get there if they want to put in the time.

Most the best dancers I know have at some point for a year or so danced almost every day. That includes salsa too. There are no videos of Viktor for example looking like a beginner when he started, but when he started, he was dancing 7 days a week.

Hi James,
thank you for your kind words, Louise and I look forward catching up with you in November. You certainly gained a great reputation amongst the ladies (as a dancer) last time you were here. :grin:

In terms on how we got to where we did (whereever that is :rofl: )... we've danced 10+ hours a week from almost the beginning of our dance partnership. Both Louise and I, before starting Ceroc/MJ 5 years ago, never danced before, so we had a LOT to learn. Only recently we feel that finally we found the tip of the iceberg :D . I also agree with you that Caterina (Ceroc Melbourne's owner) has spent a lot of time helping us grow as dance couples (initially) and performers/competitors (currently). I also attribute our success to her and Louise's innovation with moves... not to mention all the dancers who have given me the time with great advice and suggestions.

I would also like to mention that, as Caterina told me when I first started, Louise and I also believe in doing other dance styles as it provides a great baseline as dancers - I loooooove Salsa and Argentinean Tango - still at beginner level :grin: ).

Anyway, I believe in the say: "practice makes perfect", ... although I just reached the "adequate level :rofl: ".

Take care,
Adrian
:cheers:

PS. Both Louise and I do not think that the Ceroc Melbourne comp reflects our dancing in comparison to Nicky's :worthy: and Robert's :worthy: . In fact ,we both look up to them and personally, as the guy, I hope that one day I gain the control and smoothness that Robert has with his dancing.

PPS. I idolise Clayton: who incidently over breakfast in 2002, gave me some great advice, by outlining his inspiration as a dancer and pointing me in the right direction to improve (more like gain some) my styling. I hope that during my time in the UK some of the British dance styling (renound here in Melbourne) will rub off on me.

[SPROGGS]

A great dancer is one who can bring the best out of any partner and not one who practices with a fixed partner to look good in a set routine in specific competition.

Hi Dan you have my vote on your above comment
(Sproggs)

[Chicklet]

I hope that during my time in the UK some of the British dance styling (renound here in Melbourne) will rub off on me.
Intrigued - can you expand on how British dance syling might be "defined" by our friends in Oz?

C :D

[Jive Brummie]

A great dancer is one who can bring the best out of any partner and not one who practices with a fixed partner to look good in a set routine in specific competition.

Hi Dan you have my vote on your above comment
(Sproggs)

As one half of a fixed partnership, can i just say.....not all of us dance routines........for specific competitions. Indeed, we have never danced any routines for a competition.......

JB x

[Simon r]

As one half of a fixed partnership, can i just say.....not all of us dance routines........for specific competitions. Indeed, we have never danced any routines for a competition.......

JB x

same as Nicole and myself have never needed to, or wanted to..
you can spot those that have as when they freestyle they tend to get slightly out of time to finish off there set moves.

[foxylady]

As one half of a fixed partnership, can i just say.....not all of us dance routines........for specific competitions. Indeed, we have never danced any routines for a competition.......

JB x

Can I just say that this man is a great dancer and given he has only been dancing two years, he was obviously just born to it !!! :hug: :kiss: :hug:

[Lory]

Can I just say that this man is a great dancer and given he has only been dancing two years, he was obviously just born to it !!! :hug: :kiss: :hug: :yeah: Can I just say, he's a really nice bloke with it! :hug:

[SPROGGS]

As one half of a fixed partnership, can i just say.....not all of us dance routines........for specific competitions. Indeed, we have never danced any routines for a competition.......

JB x

Hi JB neither have we... Btw Great name.
Sproggs

[Sheepman]

I believe in the say: "practice makes perfect", ... although I just reached the "adequate level :rofl: ". Wow, 10+ hours a week of practice shows real dedication, and I'm looking forward to meeting you in November and seeing the results, and maybe even a dance with Louise if I'm lucky. (I thought we were doing OK if we could manage 2 or 3 hours a week, looks like I need to do some rethinking!)

Greg

[adss]

Wow, 10+ hours a week of practice shows real dedication, and I'm looking forward to meeting you in November and seeing the results, and maybe even a dance with Louise if I'm lucky. (I thought we were doing OK if we could manage 2 or 3 hours a week, looks like I need to do some rethinking!)

Greg

... we just love to dance ... and I'm a slow learner :grin:
in fact, other then practicing showcases for performances and/or comps, our practices are based on freestyling moves, trying to come up with variations, or simply focus on little aspects of my numerous shortfalls.

Kind regards,
Adrian.

PS. On the quote made by someone else on this forum about practicing routines: we only do that for choreographed showcases, ... else it is just freestyling. I'm not sure how anyone could compete in freestyle events with a pre-choreographed routine, as it would be amazingly hard to time moves to random music ... unless they are already informed what songs they'll be dancing to in a comp.

PPS. I look forward meeting some of you in 5 weeks time.

[Jive Brummie]

Lory, Foxylady....


thankyou. :blush:

James x x :flower: :kiss:

[Little Monkey]

I still believe that the 'great' dancers .... have nautural or innate ability that , when developed and encouraged makes them great.

Sometimes I feel I'd like to spend hours practising so I could improve but then I realise I just don't have the time to and I'd value the return for the investment. Maybe I'm just lazy and hope thatthe few workshops I go to will help develop some style and improve the moves I can remember. :rolleyes:

Get a grip, mate! You're a lovely dancer! Won't hear me complaining, anyway... :flower:

Hope to see you at the 7 sins party in Dundee!

Monkey

[latinlover]

As one half of a fixed partnership, can i just say.....not all of us dance routines........for specific competitions. Indeed, we have never danced any routines for a competition.......

JB x
:yeah:

surely the skill is in the freestyling and interpretation to a random piece of music?
we've only done one comp and I can't imagine trying to fit a pre-choreographed routine into a piece of music that could be anything at all, it's got to be phoney?

[Jive Brummie]

The only way I could see a pre-determined routine coming into play would be in a comp' such as the jivemasters, where you're told of all the tracks in advance. But even then, to choreograph (sp? :sick: ) a routine to 20 different tracks would be a complete nightmare...... A way around it.... Maybe work out a routine for faster songs and one for slower songs and just hope they fit.

Alternatively....just freestyle....you cheats!!!! :rofl: :wink:


James x x

[Tiggerbabe]

I remember when Debster and Hillel did their "In These Shoes" routine that it was the same track they then got in the final of the Advanced, Ceroc Champs, London - a total co-incidence and I'm not sure it helped them at all :sad: as they had to try to dance freestyle to something they had previously choreographed.

[drathzel]

I still believe that the 'great' dancers .... have nautural or innate ability that , when developed and encouraged makes them great.

Sometimes I feel I'd like to spend hours practising so I could improve but then I realise I just don't have the time to and I'd value the return for the investment. Maybe I'm just lazy and hope thatthe few workshops I go to will help develop some style and improve the moves I can remember.

I agree. I think you have to have a natural talent to be amazing. To be good you can be taught it but to be great it has to be born with you! And deep down inside whether you like to admit it or not, you know what you really are, because something just clicks!

Is it not like everything, though? You can be taught to act but your never be an amazing actor, you can get work etc but you'll never be one of the greats!

Everyone has a gift or is good at something!

And for those people that have more than one, well they stole mine..... give me it back!!! :yum:

[RogerR]

A marshal arts background helps men who often haven't danced before they find MJ ( Simon de Lisle is another example ). But one of the best influences one anyone's style as a friendly partner they can dance often with.

[MartinHarper]

David couldn't we approach a TV company and test your theory?

It now exists - see "Faking It" on Channel 4. I love that program.

One of the challenges was to "fake it" as a professional ballroom dancer, with three months training. That challenge was passed. One thing I didn't know, though: the only "faker" who never made it to screen was the girl originally selected to become a ballroom dancer. Apparently, she was so bad that she was sent home after two weeks. So says TV Tome (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-14401/epid-205032/).