(Choose up to three) top reasons why people leave Ceroc (or any other MJ)?

[Chris]

What are the top three reasons why people leave Ceroc (or any other MJ)?

Let's be consctructive - Maybe we can find out how to keep 'em!

Ceroc / MJ has a massive turnover - and in some ways it might even be intentional. If all the people who started kept coming they'd probably have to build more halls! That might be a good thing even! But why do people stop coming?

Click on what you think three most common reasons are.

I've heard ideas from franchisees and independent organisers - they often seem to give different reasons to the ones suggested by dancers - but what do you think?

I've listed as many theoretically 'possible' reasons I can think of (including the fairly ordinary ones from my own experience and mentioned in my Intro thread post) - do tell me if I've missed any (or get Franck to add options over the 20 limit).

One final word - as these are all necessarily negative things, please let's remember that the aim is to provide insight, understanding and maybe helpful feedback - no personal attacks on specific clubs or individuals please :)

[Nick M]

How about "Acquires new boyfriend/girlfriend who doesnt dance"? That seems to be a fairly common one - does that fall under the "takes too much time away from partner" option?

Nick

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Nick M
How about "Acquires new boyfriend/girlfriend who doesnt dance"? That seems to be a fairly common one - does that fall under the "takes too much time away from partner" option?

Nick

Agree and even if they dance they can still effect your attendence :sad:

Only option is to divorce them or dump them :confused:

[ChrisA]

I know of two young women that came to Ceroc for the first time, started off really enjoying it.

Then they got perved at by some git during freestyle, and it was such an unpleasant experience that they didn't come back.

Chris

[Lory]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I know of two young women that came to Ceroc for the first time, started off really enjoying it.

Then they got perved at by some git during freestyle, and it was such an unpleasant experience that they didn't come back.

Chris

I wonder if any men have ever left because they've been 'perved' at? :rofl:

[Will]

Originally posted by Lory
I wonder if any men have ever left because they've been 'perved' at? :rofl: It's no laughing matter! Why do you think you never see the Tramp at Casbah anymore??? :(

[Lory]

Originally posted by Will
It's no laughing matter! Why do you think you never see the Tramp at Casbah anymore??? :(

I haven't a clue! WHY? :what:

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Lory
I haven't a clue! WHY? :what: Cos he is in Scotland!

[Will]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Cos he is in Scotland! True, but have you asked yourself why? Have you taken into account that his numerous stalkers are so fixated with him that he has actually had to move to another country to be safe?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Lory
I wonder if any men have ever left because they've been 'perved' at? :rofl:
Try it, luv, and I'll tell you if I feel like leaving. :waycool:

[Bill]

I think it might be because many people just don't stick at 'hobbies' for too long - try it and move on to the next one. And in Ceroc people can get enough moves and a bit of style which will get them through a night out very quickly so a few months is sufficient.


There's also the new partner issue and probably a few turn up looking for partners and realise it's not that kind of club so move on.

For the more 'healthy' it might be one of a few interests so they don't spend several nights a week dancing, watching dance videos and adding threads to the forum :D :sick:

[azande]

Originally posted by Bill
so they don't spend several nights a week dancing, watching dance videos and adding threads to the forum :D :sick:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Bill
For the more 'healthy' it might be one of a few interests so they don't spend several nights a week dancing, watching dance videos and adding threads to the forum :D :sick:
Oh come on, Bill, how likely is that???

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by Bill

For the more 'healthy' it might be one of a few interests so they don't spend several nights a week dancing, watching dance videos and adding threads to the forum :D :sick:

Oh dear, the only one of those I don't do is watch dance videos, so does that make me a sad git? :confused: :rofl:

[Chris]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Oh come on, Bill, how likely is that???
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

:rofl: :rofl:

The two most common reasons I've heard are
(from dance organisers): "Relationships - definitely - they have a break up and one of them stops going or goes to a different club"
(and from punters): "the music - it's just so dreadful blah blah blah"

Actually both these reasons assume that the person is still dance addicted, so presumably they don't stop dancing permanently.

[Chicky]

Being a dance organiser myself, and have been up and running for nearly 6 months, we've found that we've had over 400 people join and have just over 100 regularly each week across 2 venues.

We have had nothing but good feedback (to our faces and indirectly though other people), but people tend to dance where their friends are regardless of whether they like the venue/teacher/music, but it's their social scene.

Obviously in order to continue to keep the venues running, we're always advertising, busking etc for new members and trying to keep existing dancers. We have found that dancers can be a fickle bunch, and we can only do the best we can to encourage people to dance with us every week.

It's a difficult situation to be in as an organiser so you're not losing money week in week out.

Nicky

www.danceriviera.com

[Chris]

Originally posted by Chicky
people tend to dance where their friends are regardless of whether they like the venue/teacher/music, but it's their social scene.
This is one I've heard from other organisers too - people go places in droves - especially if there's a 'pack leader'.

Loved your website by the way Chicky - I'm not sure if I know where Dartford is :blush: but good luck with the venue! Maybe see you some day. :)

[Chicky]

Thanks Chris, I'll tell my hubby Jim who designed the website.

We have a huge Ceroc franchise near where we are (Kent), we used to work for them (will not go into the details on this forum, everyone has their story). We don't go after any of their dancers, but people do become curious when there's a new place opening up.

We've also found that those experienced dancers who've come to us say they thoroughly enjoyed the teaching, venue, music, friendly crew etc and that they'll be back when their friends start coming, or they're guaranteed "good dances"!!

Surely all dances are good?!

We have got Roger Chin (surely you know him) who's a fantastic DJ and we've basically given people the chance to influence our nights to suit them - do they support it when we have, NO!!! Fickle!

anyway, we will continue with our dream and enjoy it long the way.

Nicky

[Alfie]

Hi Gang,
What about ''local venue closed'' or "venue ceased to be popular" or "horrid venue".I have had these reasons as feedback from ex jivers

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Chicky
We've also found that those experienced dancers who've come to us say they thoroughly enjoyed the teaching, venue, music, friendly crew etc and that they'll be back when their friends start coming, or they're guaranteed "good dances"!!

Surely all dances are good?!


I've been to Chicky's night in Dartford on a Thursday and I had loads of good dances, especially with Chicky - who is a lovely dancer and fantastic person too. I even had a dance with Jim:what: He's a nice dancer too:waycool:

I've noticed that people do follow the crowd in MJ and it takes time to build up the numbers - Keep it up Chicky:D


Originally posted by Chicky
We have got Roger Chin (surely you know him) who's a fantastic DJ and we've basically given people the chance to influence our nights to suit them - do they support it when we have, NO!!! Fickle!
Nicky

IMHO an MJ DJ should not do requests (stands back for flaming). The DJ is there to do his job and it isn't a clerical one it's a decision making position. Maybe dancers could request things like 'can you play that track xxxxx you played last week, I loved it'. But dancers shouldn't ask DJs to play tracks they don't usually play - otherwise you haven't got a DJ you've got a manually operated JukeBox:wink: I've heard quite a few DJs even make the disclaimer 'This is a request' or even LL who I once heard say 'Don't blame me for the tracks in David B's lesson - he chose them'. I must admit I loved David B's choice but LL was quite right to ensure no-one thought it was part of his selection as you would never have heard him playing them:wink:

Oh yes, Roger is a good DJ. He's got far more experience of Dancing and DJ'ing than any dancer in Dartford - let him choose the music, he will get it right (probably:innocent: ) :waycool:

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I've been to Chicky's night in Dartford on a Thursday and I had loads of good dances, especially with Chicky - who is a lovely dancer and fantastic person too. I even had a dance with Jim:what: He's a nice dancer too:waycool:

I've noticed that people do follow the crowd in MJ and it takes time to build up the numbers - Keep it up Chicky:D



IMHO an MJ DJ should not do requests (stands back for flaming). The DJ is there to do his job and it isn't a clerical one it's a decision making position. Maybe dancers could request things like 'can you play that track xxxxx you played last week, I loved it'. But dancers shouldn't ask DJs to play tracks they don't usually play - otherwise you haven't got a DJ you've got a manually operated JukeBox:wink: I've heard quite a few DJs even make the disclaimer 'This is a request' or even LL who I once heard say 'Don't blame me for the tracks in David B's lesson - he chose them'. I must admit I loved David B's choice but LL was quite right to ensure no-one thought it was part of his selection as you would never have heard him playing them:wink:

Oh yes, Roger is a good DJ. He's got far more experience of Dancing and DJ'ing than any dancer in Dartford - let him choose the music, he will get it right (probably:innocent: ) :waycool:


I think Andy there is a time for requests and a time for there not being any.

Depending on the venue and size of it. Now if it's a smaller bog standard freestyle night the DJ will sometimes open themselves up to requests. John Miller does this very well at Jag Jive

However there are times at big events where it is not appropriate. Particularly the case when you have rotating DJ's or you might get duplication :)

Now I wonder whether these last two posts ought to go into the DJ section rather than here?

[Chicky]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
IMHO an MJ DJ should not do requests (stands back for flaming). The DJ is there to do his job and it isn't a clerical one it's a decision making position...............Oh yes, Roger is a good DJ. He's got far more experience of Dancing and DJ'ing than any dancer in Dartford - let him choose the music, he will get it right


Thanks Andy for the feedback and support, it's good to see you back.:kiss:

We chose Roger for his wealth of experience in modern jive (he was instrumental in developing modern jive as we know it today), his excellent DJing skills and he's a genuinely nice guy.

Most people have been very impressed with his music but we did a questionnaire recently and practically all the answers came back that although they enjoyed the majority of the music, they don't like 'slow' tracks, or ones with 'breaks' in. I know that some people haven't come back because of the music. We are trying to teach people moves that allow them to dance to some 'slower' bits in the music.

Roger is addressing this by not playing anything slower than 130 bpm and the fact that he doesn't do requests (he may do one or two in a week), suggests to me that he's doing a great job, and he gets at least 3-5 compliments a night.

[Jon L]

For me I have avoided other ceroc and other modern jive venues for the folowing reasons.

1) Naff Music
2) Cliques and made to feel unwelcome
3) Smoke (Andy will be pleased )

I have seen a number of and keen female dancers vanish. Only to go to a ball later on where it is not necessarily modern jive (I am based at Chimes (St.Mary's) which meets in a church). only to meet that same women to be hand in handwith some tall handsome bloke :sad:

So there is validity in the got boyfriend/girlfriend who doesn't dance.

[Chicky]

Originally posted by Jon L
Now I wonder whether these last two posts ought to go into the DJ section rather than here?

Sorry Jon, you're right, but was trying to say that if people don't like the music and leave and you try and address the problem, they still may not come back. :sad:

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Bill

There's also the new partner issue and probably a few turn up looking for partners and realise it's not that kind of club so move on.

:D :sick:

I wonder how many cerocers have dated other cerocers almost worth another thread !:what:

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Jon L
For me I have avoided other ceroc and other modern jive venues for the folowing reasons.

I have seen a number of and keen female dancers vanish. Only to go to a ball later on where it is not necessarily modern jive (I am based at Chimes (St.Mary's) which meets in a church). only to meet that same women to be hand in handwith some tall handsome bloke :sad:

.

sorry John there probably with me :blush:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chicky
Roger is addressing this by not playing anything slower than 130 bpm and the fact that he doesn't do requests (he may do one or two in a week), suggests to me that he's doing a great job, and he gets at least 3-5 compliments a night. Ummm. Nicky. This has GOT to be wrong.

Mustang Sally - 115bpm
Smooth - 115.9bpm
Dancing in the Moonlight - 119.4bpm
Spinning Around - 120bpm
Can't get you out of my head - 125.9bpm

Steve

[TheTramp]

And no blues at all in the night. Any night?? Don't you try to cater for everyone, by playing a wide mix of tracks? Especially later on in the evening. I'm surprised....

Steve

[Chicky]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Nicky. This has GOT to be wrong.

Mustang Sally - 115bpm
Smooth - 115.9bpm
Dancing in the Moonlight - 119.4bpm
Spinning Around - 120bpm
Can't get you out of my head - 125.9bpm

Steve


Hi Steve

Thanks for correcting me :D I'm not a DJ obviously, but I'm sure we talked about 130bpm, it's stuck in my mind - my apologies.

You know Roger and know that he plays a variety of music and although Jim and I love bluesy music along with more of a variety (not just modern chart stuff), we found that people complained that if Roger played more than 2 'slow or blues' tracks - which IMO were not considered slow at all.

At the end of the day, it's not what Roger, Jim or I like to hear, it's what the majority of our dancers want, they vote with their feet and if they don't like the music they won't come.

As a result of playing no blues or slow songs, Roger's had lots more compliments, and people have started to return.

A lot of our dancers go to Ceroc nearby, and 99% of the music is modern pop and that's what they expect when they go elsewhere.

Any suggestions?

Nix x

[Emma]

Originally posted by Chicky
we did a questionnaire recently and practically all the answers came back that although they enjoyed the majority of the music, they don't like 'slow' tracks, or ones with 'breaks' in. Oh man... :tears: :tears: :tears:

[Lounge Lizard]

Nicky I agree with Steve it is not the BPM but the feel of the music, any good DJ will know what the dancers want (especially after a few weeks) and play the music to suit.
You are in Ceroc land so to entice dancers I would guess Roger plays a lot of Ceroc style music with his own goodies mixed in.
To restrict a DJ to a BPM is as bad as giving him a playlist to stick to.
Roger is an 'A list' DJ so I am sure it is only a matter of time, and luck before numbers incease
Peter

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Emma
Oh man... :tears: :tears: :tears:

Ditto:tears: :tears: :tears:

[Emma]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Ditto:tears: :tears: :tears: *passes Andy a tissue*

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Chicky
although they enjoyed the majority of the music, they don't like 'slow' tracks, or ones with 'breaks' in.

Aarrrggghhhhh :tears: :tears: :tears:

It was starting to learn to dance to the phrases in the music (as well as the breaks) rather than just the beat that stopped me giving up Ceroc completely - and not all that long ago either.

Introducing a little gentle musicality into Ceroc teaching would be one of the two things (the other one IMHO is lead/follow) with the potential to revolutionise people's experience and send the pleasure people get from dancing through the roof.

It wouldn't even be that hard to do... in the intermediate routine, pick a move from time to time that you can easily stop somewhere in, and teach it with and without the break, to music with and without a break.

If it's part of a routine, it won't be so threatening, and people will gradually get the message.

Chris

[Chicky]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Nicky I agree with Steve it is not the BPM but the feel of the music, any good DJ will know what the dancers want (especially after a few weeks) and play the music to suit.
You are in Ceroc land so to entice dancers I would guess Roger plays a lot of Ceroc style music with his own goodies mixed in.
To restrict a DJ to a BPM is as bad as giving him a playlist to stick to.
Roger is an 'A list' DJ so I am sure it is only a matter of time, and luck before numbers incease
Peter


I don't want it to sound like Roger has been given orders not to play anything below a certain BPM or that he only plays typical 'Ceroc' modern pop because that's not the case at all! I'm one of these people that knows the songs but has no idea who sings them or what they're called. We leave music completely up to Roger, that's his speciality and why he's on board with us as well as Hipsters.

You're right, Roger is an A list DJ and he's fantastic at reading the crowd - we have tried to mix it up a little but as I've said, we've found resistence.

It's just taking a little time to show our dancers there's more types of music to dance to than fast modern pop.

As an organiser yourself Peter, you'll understand that you need to keep your dancers happy so that they'll keep coming to you, so you can keep the venues open!

Nix

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Chicky
As an organiser yourself Peter, you'll understand that you need to keep your dancers happy so that they'll keep coming to you, so you can keep the venues open!
Nix
Agreed we have had a really bad year, our Monday suffered through back to back Bankholidays h ot sumer and wrong polish on dance floor (great for ice skating)
numbers dropped from 110 to 25, we are back in the 50's but it is hard work.
We do not have ceroc near us but never sure if having ceroc with 100's dancers already in the area but strong competition is better than being the only organiser with no one else bringing in dancers.
Promise I will come up soon as I will have more Thursdays free in new year
peter

[Emma]

Nicky, what proportion of your regular dancers are beginners or relatively new to dancing?

I'm guessing that it's quite high...well...OK: I'm clutching at straws. Really I'm praying that it's quite high because I want to believe that more experienced dancers will naturally begin to *want* music which gives more opportunity for improvisation, interpretation etc. Actually I guess that a high proportion of dancers just want to turn up, be unchallenged by the music and have a good time with their friends...and good for them :nice:

Oh, and another straw...complaining about the music is a very *easy* getout if someone asks you why you stopped going somewhere, isn't it? There is a culture (rightly) of commenting upon music, whereas there isn't one for saying other things like...'the place was full of pervs', or 'I could never find a parking space', or 'my friends went somewhere else'. Not that I'm saying that people don't leave because of the music, I just think that maybe they are already not enjoying it for another reason and then go 'oh well.. I don't like the music much either, so I'm not going any more.'

I'm rambling, aren't I :blush:

[Lounge Lizard]

good point Emma
perhaps to expand this thread - why do dancers choose or change venues - is it the Music, Teachers or what

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
or even LL who I once heard say 'Don't blame me for the tracks in David B's lesson - he chose them'This is not in the slightest bit accurate. LL phoned me up the day before and insisted that I dig out an old Village People song. Don't forget that when Peter is not wearing a bandana, he is a builder...

:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by DavidB
This is not in the slightest bit accurate. LL phoned me up the day before and insisted that I dig out an old Village People song. Don't forget that when Peter is not wearing a bandana, he is a builder...

:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: Andy's return to the forum and you post a picture of the village people (or is it the Dorking dancers), poor man how will he cope.
David what was THAT track not YMCA.
PETER

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Andy's return to the forum and you post a picture of the village people (or is it the Dorking dancers), poor man how will he cope.
David what was THAT track not YMCA.
PETER


The only thing Dorking is famous for is the Dorking Chicken ! and I have never seen dancers like that around - YET!!!!!!


:wink:

[Chicky]

Originally posted by Emma
Actually I guess that a high proportion of dancers just want to turn up, be unchallenged by the music and have a good time with their friends...and good for them


I totally agree with your first part of your post, we too were hoping that our experienced dancers would want more challenging music, but you're right that 90% of them just want to have a good time and not worry about dancing 'slowly' as they put it.

anyone would think we're playing slushy end-of-the-nightclub-type songs.

We constantly teach moves that they can dance the 'slow' bits to and they all enjoy our lessons - rather than move after move after move, we teach a lot of style and some body movement instead of bouncy bouncy moves.

And you're right, it's too easy to blame the music when there are probably other reasons why they don't come anymore. Jim and I are big enough and ugly enough to hear an honest answer.

Nicky

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chicky
Jim and I are big enough and ugly enough to hear an honest answer.Well. Jim is anyhow.....

I'd agree that a lot of dancers don't want the slower stuff, or stuff that is musically challenging. And yes, probably the majority of the night should satisfy them (since they are the majority).

However, any night should (I feel) include variety. When I'm DJing, I tend to try to keep it 'safe' between the classes (though, I might slip in the odd challenging track then too, just to...well... challenge them. And immediately after the intermediate class I tend to keep it safe as well.

As the night progresses though, I do try to cater for all tastes, and play a variety of music. Some tracks with a latin feel, some swing tracks, some bluesy tracks (usually at the end of the night) etc. I normally play two or three of these tracks at a time, and then follow them with again something that's more 'safe', to give the people that can't cope with the more challenging stuff something to dance to.

I figure that not many people are going to like every track of the night, but if I can please everyone 70-80% of the time, then I've had a good night.

Unfortunately, you will always get the people that complain if they don't like every single track of the night. If they complain to me, I (gently) point out that while they didn't like it, other people hopefully did, and those people should have a chance to get to dance to music they prefer as well. I also ask them how many nights they go to where they dance to every single dance of the freestyle.

If they are still unhappy, then you have to accept that they are probably never going to be happy, and even if you play all their favourite songs of an evening, they'll probably just be looking for something else to complain about (you know, like people smoking near the dance floor).

Steve

[Chicky]

Steve

you're right in your last post, Roger does the same as you, playing a few challenging tracks and sticks to the safe stuff for them to enjoy.

You're also right about some people will always complain about something but it's striking the balance.

We've dealt with the smoking issue (Andy's very pleased :D ), and I think we've got everything else right (if not, we'll address it when we hear about it).

But back to the thread of why people stop coming, I'll reiterate that the majority of people who've come irregularly to our venues or stopped coming is because of their friends going elsewhere.

We're always working on getting new people in, so hopefully create our own social groups.

Nicky

[Lory]

Originally posted by TheTramp


However, any night should (I feel) include variety. When I'm DJing, I tend to try to keep it 'safe' between the classes (though, I might slip in the odd challenging track then too, just to...well... challenge them. And immediately after the intermediate class I tend to keep it safe as well.

Steve
At Ashtons on Wednesday nights Bob (the Dj) has introduced a new idea.
At 10pm, after a very small announcement, he plays 2 new experimental tracks.
Then people are asked to vote, via a tick sheet, (left out on the stage) whether they liked one or both or hated them.

If a track bombs, he knows not to play it to that audience again and visa versa!

It adds a bit of fun and something to talk about!:nice:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Chris
What are the top three reasons why people leave Ceroc (or any other MJ)?

Let's be consctructive - Maybe we can find out how to keep 'em!

Ceroc / MJ has a massive turnover - and in some ways it might even be intentional. If all the people who started kept coming they'd probably have to build more halls! That might be a good thing even! But why do people stop coming?

Click on what you think three most common reasons are.


I wrote out my own list of why people stopped coming before investigating further. No attempt to put in order.

Don't want to join the mad people.
Nobody there I relate to.
Can't do it.
Prefer other dance forms.
Don't like the crowds
Don't like being molested.

I was basing my answers on not coming back after one or more visits.

The allergic to people option is IMO biased against responses, many people have an instictive dislike of crowds, especially those acting in a vigorous and unfamiliar manner.

The "Don't like being molested" option is very individualistic, and is expressed as seen in the eye of the newcomer. For a young girl high on hormones the First Move is being molested. A lot of people do not like being touched by strangers.

A lot of people join to extend their social life, and are probably trying other things in parallel. It is just chance where they meet people that they can relate to.

Can't do it - a lot of men cannot manage the multi-tasking. A new social environment and learning new skills is just too daunting.

A lot of ladies cannot manage too much spinning.

The other dance forms options are particulary sad where the new member has decided to learn dancing, and done comparative visits, and decided that Tango, Salsa or ballroom are less vigorous and therefore more for them. They try those, find the footwork too difficult and give up, without giving MJ a real chance.

As for longer term members, they do not usually give up at all, just have a break, or come less often.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The allergic to people option is IMO biased against responses, many people have an instictive dislike of crowds, especially those acting in a vigorous and unfamiliar manner.
Not just that, but I know of someone who's primary reason for stopping going was because it was just too crowded; sort of a "people clostraphobia"{sp?}.
OK, so they were also a little bit paranoid and used to picking up skills quickly - when it dosn't just "click", they feel no desire to continue untill it does.

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Lory
At Ashtons on Wednesday nights Bob (the Dj) has introduced a new idea.
At 10pm, after a very small announcement, he plays 2 new experimental tracks.
Then people are asked to vote, via a tick sheet, (left out on the stage) whether they liked one or both or hated them.

If a track bombs, he knows not to play it to that audience again and visa versa!

It adds a bit of fun and something to talk about!:nice:
I have been doing this for years at Hastings, and started it at Dorking & Fleet this year, also lunchtimes at Camber - same at Bognor I hope.
Some of my early ones was Touch & go straight to number 1, Bob Dylan things have changed, and Mr. Scruff get amove on
At Hastings FBS 'because we can' from Moulin Rouge went down a storm but not elsewhere.
I find if you ask dancers their opinion they are happy to try new music, if you just play it be prepared for criticism (oh boy have I had some of that at times)
p

[jivecat]

I'm somewhat depressed that so many dancers cite "too easy/lack of challenge" as the major reason for people discontinuing Ceroc. It seems to me that the majority of the dancers at the venues I go to regularly still have something to learn from the intermediate classes on offer. I have been amazed in the past when dancers have smugly said that they are bored with the beginner/intermediate class because they know all of that stuff (and thus do not require any further improvement). Especially when I know, from dancing with them, that this is far from being the case.
I have been dancing for over 2 years now and, in theory, "know" the beginners moves. However, I still find it very useful to attend the beginners class (if I can get myself off the sofa in time) because I can use it to practise things like spinning, balance, technique, style & general accuracy which I think is best done when the moves themselves are not too challenging. When I can do the moves PERFECTLY, every time, with every partner (oink, oink, flap, flap!) then I might start thinking the classes are too easy.

[Gus]

Originally posted by jivecat
I'm somewhat depressed that so many dancers cite "too easy/lack of challenge" as the major reason for people discontinuing Ceroc.

Have to agree. Have got usec to dancers now complaining about easy intermediate lessons are (and some advanced). I have to fight down the temptation to point out all the things they are doing wrong and why they aren't progressing. The frustrating things about teaching a class rather than workshops is that I can't get off stage to show people individualy what they're doing wrong.

95% of the people who crave for workshops would spend their time far better by doing intermediate lesson and actualy paying attention to what the teacher is actualy saying/doing!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by jivecat
I'm somewhat depressed that so many dancers cite "too easy/lack of challenge" as the major reason for people discontinuing Ceroc.

I'd been dancing about 4 years, on and off, and had got to the point where learning new moves was no longer fun.

I hadn't learned all of them, far from it, and I hadn't learned how to do the ones I knew, well. And I couldn't remember the (presumably hundreds) of moves I'd learned in the classes.

I was bored not because I knew everything, but because I wasn't getting any better, and didn't know how to.

I was on the point of giving it all up - since I don't enjoy doing anything if I can't get better at it - when I happened to be in the right place at the right time, and got some good teaching on basic musicality and lead/follow.

Now that I have at least the key to my own learning, I find all the classes much more useful and a lot more fun.

Chris

[jivecat]

Originally posted by ChrisA

I was on the point of giving it all up - since I don't enjoy doing anything if I can't get better at it - when I happened to be in the right place at the right time, and got some good teaching on basic musicality and lead/follow.

Chris

Yes, point taken. It does seem to be much harder to get the right kind of help to get off the latest progress plateau when you're not a beginner/intermediate any more.
What was the right time, right place, incidentally?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Gus
The frustrating things about teaching a class rather than workshops is that I can't get off stage to show people individualy what they're doing wrong.
I wonder what the reaction would be if you actually did this? Perhaps on about the third move - jump down while the class is going through the routine to interupt a handfull of couples and show them some 'helpfull tips' on performing the moves. (with the mic still on)
... I think that I as an individual would appreciate it, but the class may not. If done, I think that it would be best if it only lasted one track.

Are there too many people that would stop and stare? Would the selected few feel privalidged and the rest isolated? Would the selected few feel targeted and the rest relieved? Would it disrupt the class too much to finish the lesson?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by jivecat
Yes, point taken. It does seem to be much harder to get the right kind of help to get off the latest progress plateau when you're not a beginner/intermediate any more.
What was the right time, right place, incidentally?
At risk of the Sword of Damocles falling on my head, I cannot tell a lie... it was Rock Bottoms in 2002, swiftly followed up by Amir's classes at Hipsters

All together now... "Oh no, not Hipsters again" :tears:

Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gus
I have to fight down the temptation to point out all the things they are doing wrong and why they aren't progressing.
Well why don't you? It might put a stop to the moaning.

But I do wonder whether they're looking for something more in their dancing, and haven't realised yet that it isn't about moves.


95% of the people who crave for workshops would spend their time far better by doing intermediate lesson and actualy paying attention to what the teacher is actualy saying/doing! Hear hear.

Chris

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Gus
...The frustrating things about teaching a class rather than workshops is that I can't get off stage to show people individualy what they're doing wrong...

That is a pity (IMHO), and I’ll assume it’s the practicalities that (by and large) prevent this :sad: On a personal level I have absolutely no problems in receiving advise/criticism on my ability to ‘dance’. Even though my personal aim is simply to be able to ‘have a good dance’ and not become an awe-inspiring dance-god, I think ‘learning the moves’ and ‘learning to dance’ are two different things…related but different. I recently discovered that a 6-beat move I was doing regularly was actually an 8-beat move (arcane or what :what: ), this mistake wasn’t much fun for the poor unfortunates I had been dancing with (return 2 beats early = sore-shoulder :sorry: ):sad:, and was the result of assuming that I knew the move :blush:


If the reasoning behind people having chosen the ‘challenge has gone’ option for leaving MJ is because they know the moves then possibly a whisper in their shell-like would highlight some new challenges or, in my case, remind them not to give-up their day job :tears:

PS, hope this makes some sense :what:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Boomer
PS, hope this makes some sense :what:

Yes Justin, perfect! :wink:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Boomer
I think ‘learning the moves’ and ‘learning to dance’ are two different things…related but different.

God, yes, and I wish I'd discovered that a damn sight sooner than I did.

Maybe you will be a dance-god... ladies, get in there quick, as I've said before.


I recently discovered that a 6-beat move I was doing regularly was actually an 8-beat move (arcane or what :what: ), this mistake wasn’t much fun for the poor unfortunates I had been dancing with (return 2 beats early = sore-shoulder :sorry: ):sad:, and was the result of assuming that I knew the move :blush:

Wassat then?

It might not even be wrong. Amir teaches the first move as 5 beats instead of 6, for instance - you can do either depending on what the music's doing.


PS, hope this makes some sense :what: Unusually so :D :D :really:

Chris

[psyc0diver]

The frustrating things about teaching a class rather than workshops is that I can't get off stage to show people individualy what they're doing wrong.

95% of the people who crave for workshops would spend their time far better by doing intermediate lesson and actualy paying attention to what the teacher is actualy saying/doing! Just a point for thought, but what might be useful is if the experienced dancers are spread out through the class. This is a generalisation, but the regular crowd often wind up closer to the stage, & the less exp. newer men wind up at the back, with the worst view of whats going on. As a result they are grouped together & cannot 'crib' off of the couples round about.

[RoyBoy]

Originally posted by Gus
95% of the people who crave for workshops would spend their time far better by doing intermediate lesson and actualy paying attention to what the teacher is actualy saying/doing!

Couldn’t agree more. It annoys me intensely when in a class and the ‘know it all Mechanics’ (they can perform the moves something akin to a machine but rarely have the where-with-all to dance them) who race ahead, tying their partner in knots and then look disdainfully at the poor girl when it goes wrong.

My first rant. Enjoyed that. I'm going for a wee lie down now zzzzzzzz

[Gary]

Originally posted by Gus
Have to agree. Have got usec to dancers now complaining about easy intermediate lessons are (and some advanced). I have to fight down the temptation to point out all the things they are doing wrong and why they aren't progressing. The frustrating things about teaching a class rather than workshops is that I can't get off stage to show people individualy what they're doing wrong.


Do any teachers out there have some good ways for getting (from the stage) dancers to be more aware of where they're "doing the move" but not really correctly (e.g. bad timing, weight wrong, not flowing, ...)? Is it that folks have no experience of doing moves "right", and so they don't recognise that they're doing it wrong?

[Bill]

For the teacher it's very difficult to spot all the mistakes from the stage. I only demo but when I'm watching the class from the stage it's easy enough to spot a few folk who are clearly out of time but if you have 100 people on the floor it's not easy to see everything that's going on....................or maybe I should wear my specs :rolleyes:

But good point made by Craig as well. Even on a stage it can be difficult from men and women at the back of the hall to see and sometimes to hear what's going on. I always try and get close to the stage when I'm in a class so that I can see what's happening ( again mainly because I don't wear my specs when dancing). If a new man is amongst relatively new dancers then it's sometime difficult for them to pick up exactly what's happening.

As others say, it's very annoying when experienced men rush ahead and often confuse newer women. For some men it's almost like a challenge to finsish before the teacher..........even when she's counting out the beat :devil:

Lorna quite often helps the men by indicating ' it's the other left hand' :na: ........or asking everyone to stay in time so she can see how everyone is managing. She and Lorna also tell dancers to come and ask them about any move and they will go over it after the class.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Bill
Lorna ~snip~ She and Lorna Help. Now there's 2 of her!!!

(Pass the biscuit) :na:

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gadget
sort of a "people clostraphobia"{sp?}.

that'd be claustrophobia, you'd think you'd remember that at this time of year. Santa doesn't like enclosed spaces either, chimneys must be a nightmare :what:

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Bill

There's also the new partner issue and probably a few turn up looking for partners and realise it's not that kind of club so move on.

:sick:

How many people have dated other 'cerocers' 50%, 90% ,10%. I would like to know but I'm afraid if you put 300 or 400 members of the opposite sex together it can become 'that type of club'

I chose ceroc (nearly 10yrs ago) instead of morris dancing with the intension to dance and meet people.

Also I assume everyone who voted on this still goes so these are opinons ??

I still think many don't come back, as they have found 'their other half'

Case in point a girl turned up at venue after 2yrs absence after
she had just split from her partner

[Bill]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Help. Now there's 2 of her!!!

(Pass the biscuit) :na: No no no...............didn't you know Lisa has changed her name to Lorna as well to save any confusion. Much easier for us to remember. In fact might start calling you Lorna too..........then my poor liitle brain might stop hurting so much :D :sick:

[jivecat]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stewart38
[B]How many people have dated other 'cerocers' 50%, 90% ,10%. I would like to know but I'm afraid if you put 300 or 400 members of the opposite sex together it can become 'that type of club' Stewart38




I have certainly dated other cerocers, as has nearly every other person that I've discussed the subject with. However there's quite a strong feeling that it's a bad idea to do so as if the relationship goes pear-shaped any resulting awkwardness or ill-feeling could cause disruption to dancing enjoyment!
Not sure if this actually stops anyone, though.


Lots of people I've talked seem to feel that new partners would have to be fitted in round the dancing. But then if you're dancing 2 nights a week or more there isn't a lot of time left over for meeting a non-cerocer!

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by jivecat
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stewart38
[B]
Lots of people I've talked seem to feel that new partners would have to be fitted in round the dancing. But then if you're dancing 2 nights a week or more there isn't a lot of time left over for meeting a non-cerocer!

I've not dated a cerocer as yet, although I would like to date someone with the same interest. I dance between 3 and 5 nights a week, if I can, so actually meeting anyone is a problem, although the ones I've dated recently have all been non-dancers altogether! I find that I don't get to know people who ceroc too well though, as I'm always on the dancefloor and we all know how difficult it is to strike up a conversation when dancing....nigh on impossible! So I remain single :tears:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Bill
No no no...............didn't you know Lisa has changed her name to Lorna as well to save any confusion. Much easier for us to remember. In fact might start calling you Lorna too..........then my poor liitle brain might stop hurting so much :D :sick: Hmmm..... Great plan. :sick:

Steve

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Bardsey
I've not dated a cerocer as yet, although I would like to date someone with the same interest. I dance between 3 and 5 nights a week, if I can, so actually meeting anyone is a problem, although the ones I've dated recently have all been non-dancers altogether! I find that I don't get to know people who ceroc too well though, as I'm always on the dancefloor and we all know how difficult it is to strike up a conversation when dancing....nigh on impossible! So I remain single :tears:


Is there a problem then with the northern ceroc dancers asking women out ? :what:

My 'friend' use to tell me the best way if you were shy was to 'suggest' another venue (we are spolit for choice down south) and or get their e-mail address so you can 'swap' info about dance venues.

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by stewart38
Is there a problem then with the northern ceroc dancers asking women out ? :what: Think there must be.
My 'friend' use to tell me the best way if you were shy was to 'suggest' another venue (we are spolit for choice down south) and or get their e-mail address so you can 'swap' info about dance venues. We have several venues up here and a few of us go to more than one.

My friend tells me that I don't get asked out by cerocers much (I have been, but not by anyone I want to go out with) is because "they can't damnwell catch you!" meaning, I think, that I'm usually flying round the dancefloor :rofl:

Hey Boomer - LOOK!!!!! I did it right this time :waycool:

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Bardsey
...Hey Boomer - LOOK!!!!! I did it right this time :waycool:
Almost hun, almost :rofl:

:hug:

[Dreadful Scathe]

ach, just give her the cigar anyway :)

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
ach, just give her the cigar anyway :)

do y'no, no matter how hard ya try with some people, yer best just ain't good enuf ! :confused: :tears:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Single Attractive Dancer
I've not dated a cerocer as yet, although I would like to date someone with the same interest. I dance between 3 and 5 nights a week, if I can, so actually meeting anyone is a problem, although the ones I've dated recently have all been non-dancers altogether! I find that I don't get to know people who ceroc too well though, as I'm always on the dancefloor and we all know how difficult it is to strike up a conversation when dancing....nigh on impossible! So I remain single :tears:


Dear 'Single Attractive Dancer'

Firstly, if you're only dancing 3-5 nights a week it's just not enough. If you danced every night you'd be too tired to consider a new partner.

Being a non-combatant I can observe this phenomenon from outside. Many classes are packed with single people of both sexes who say they just don't meet single people that they fancy. So problem is not the meeting it's the attraction. The simple answer is to start fancying the single people you meet all of the time. And the way to do that is to get to know them better - they're dancers so they must be really nice:D

I've seen what people at dancing who find new partners actually do. The most successful ones say something like 'I'd like to get to know you better, fancy going out for a drink one night'. They get to know each other better, make a decision about whether or not they 'fancy' each other and, maybe, become a couple. And maybe they don't.

So what is the problem. I think it's one of short-listing candidates at the classes. They're judged on many factors and found lacking. One of those factors could be dancing ability*. Hence the short list has no people on it. Get to know people better, if a drink 'a deux' is too threatening get a group of dancers to go out for pizza one night - you'd be able to assess more candidates at the same time that way too.

Of course this doesn't mean you need to 'settle'. I just means that you should get to know the people at your dance classes before putting a cross next to their name. The man/woman of your dreams could be right under your nose.

Andy

*Of course, there are some guys who are brilliant dancers, get judged as potential partners and go on first dates who don't measure up and don't get a second date. Look at Nigel, he's been on first dates with most of my single, female friends - but he's not been on many second dates:devil:

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Bardsey
do y'no, no matter how hard ya try with some people, yer best just ain't good enuf ! :confused: :tears:

To err is human, to correct is progress, well done hun :hug: You can have a cigar, but for pity's sake don't smoke it!

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Dear 'Single Attractive Dancer'

Firstly, if you're only dancing 3-5 nights a week it's just not enough. If you danced every night you'd be too tired to consider a new partner.True enough! Point taken!
I've seen what people at dancing who find new partners actually do. The most successful ones say something like 'I'd like to get to know you better, fancy going out for a drink one night'. They get to know each other better, make a decision about whether or not they 'fancy' each other and, maybe, become a couple. And maybe they don't. That's fine for the men, but (as anyone who knows me will tell you :wink:) I'm shy. I wouldn't dare ask a man out for fear of being "knocked back"
go on first dates who don't measure up and don't get a second date. Look at Nigel, he's been on first dates with most of my single, female friends - but he's not been on many second dates:devil: :rofl: :rofl: This happens in "real" life too

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Bardsey
:rofl: :rofl: This happens in "real" life too

Nigel's life is "real". Well almost:devil:

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by Boomer
To err is human, to correct is progress, well done hun :hug: You can have a cigar, but for pity's sake don't smoke it!

Thanks Boomer.....errr can I have a bar of chocolate instead? Ah go on, go on, go on, go on! I promise I'll still eat my dinner, daddy!:D

[Dreadful Scathe]

who voted on this stupid poll ? :)

[David Bailey]

who voted on this stupid poll ? :)
I reckon it was Martin "data miner supreme" Harper showing off... :wink:

[Northants Girly]

I reckon it was Martin "data miner supreme" Harper showing off... :wink:More likely someone who's recently thinkin of "leaving Ceroc" . . . . . :whistle: