Advanced lead/follow

[Gadget]

One thing I am beginning to find is that the more subtle and developed my leading gets, the more I appreciate a lady who can follow my signals and dosn't drown them out with their own.
I don't think that this is intentional, but due to most ladys only experiancing a 'standard' lead and not expeciting to be led well:
I think that most followers compensate for areas of poor leading and adapt their dancing to fill any holes or inconsistancies - I also think that this skill is often mistaken for good following.

For me a good follower should be just that; be able to react to what signals I am giving them (even if they are 'wrong'). If no signals are given, then I expect them to take up the rains, but relinquish them when I start to lead again.
It sounds simple, but I wouldn't be able to do it: Obviously, if my signals are confusing, then it becomes more of a guessing game for the follower and they don't know what to do, so they chose the most obvious solution. If there are 'glitches' in the lead, then does the follower smooth them out, go in a new direction, or follow the glitch? If the lead appears to be one move, but there are minor inconsistancies, do they just go with that move, correct it as they go, or try to follow the changes?

How do you teach/learn how to lead/follow?

{I was at David/Lilly's perth workshop, and took away a lot of knowledge{:wink:}, but the more I know, the more I realise how much there is still to learn.}

[Bill]

From what I've heard some women say about good leading it's difficult to describe or explain what happens but as I said on another thread the longer I dance the more I realise just how crucial the right tension is if there is to be good or clear lead and follow.

Some signals aren't really required if the lead is clear although it helps with some moves but what can prevent a clear lead is too much body movement. if the arms, hands, shoulders and most of the rest of the body are all moving the follower might have no idea what she's supposed to be doing. If the upper body is relatively still but the legs are moving it'll be clearer to the woman where the hands are going and so where she is meant to go.

DavidB could explain this much more effectively than I can we've discussed lead before and what it does open is the need for men to be led properly at some point so they can tell the difference between a 'good' and a 'poor' lead.

I've danced with a few men and Scot and Brady both lead very well and very clearly - both with one partner and in double trouble and this certainly helps when realising how we should be leading. Might also say something about how well we follow :na: :sick:

[Chris]

I think it may have been DavidB that joked about making WCS compulsory. My gut reaction to this thread was 'make salsa compulsory' . . .

So I started thinking about what it is in both of those (and some other dances) that focuses more attention on the lead and follow.

Perhaps one of the reasons (apart from different teaching models)is that in WCS and in salsa, both partners are individually responsible for their own balance, far more so than in jive. This makes it easier to use a lead movement as a more subtle 'indication' or 'invitation' rather than as taking the lady through the whole move.

The water can get a bit muddied as there are times when it is necessary to 'lead the lady through' at least part of the move and thinking on this varies, even among top dancers. NZ Ceroccers tend to use assisted turns (drawing a halo around the lady's head) as standard, whereas here the lady is conditioned to turn when the man takes her hand to a point directly over her head. Conditioning is the opposite of sensitive following, as it inculcates a 'set' response in preference to a response indicated by movement, momentum and a lead that intentionally moves the lady's balance from one foot to a different foot.

In salsa, the degree of tension is important, but to communicate sensitively by means of the frame. If you communicate wrongly, you (or your partner) ends up on the wrong foot and can't complete the move. This is critical in salsa but appears to be less so in jive.

Many of the lead and follow exercises in jive workshops are based on techniques developed in other dances - like tango - where frame is even more important - rather than the rumbustious 'rock and roll' of G.I. France.

[Brady]

Originally posted by Gadget
If no signals are given, then I expect them to take up the rains, but relinquish them when I start to lead again.

Is this always the case. If I don't give a signal when I get on the floor, I would expect my partner not to do anything until I started to lead. If I allow my partner to improvise during the track, I will then convert over to 'follow mode' until I can sense that she is finished 'playing', then I take the lead again.


Originally posted by Gadget
How do you teach/learn how to lead/follow?

One drill that I've taken away from Amir (can't remember but David & Lily might also have used it) is to just practice lead/follow with your partner by a) maintaining compression throughout a move (try the yo-yo) b) maintaining tension throughout a move. After having a laugh the first couple tries, get serious and stop part way through the move and have your partner follow this. Some practice with this will help 'strengthen' your lead/follow.

As DavidB has mentioned before, WCS is a great place to learn lead/follow. I developed most of my leading through my WCS and ballroom classes at uni. Most of these classes spend a fair amount of time on this subject, as it is the crucial element to dancing. If you can lead/follow, who cares if you know any moves out of the book, you can just make ia all up as you go (do this quite often with good follows :really: ).

Brady

[DavidB]

Here's an interesting quote:

An absolute beginner (ie never danced at all) can't lead anything
An advanced dancer can actually lead nothing.
Learning to lead is understanding the difference.

[Emma]

You can lead a horse to water but a pencil can't be lead. (Laurel and Hardy..um....probably )

[Chris]

Originally posted by DavidB
An absolute beginner (ie never danced at all) can't lead anything
An advanced dancer can actually lead nothing.
Learning to lead is understanding the difference.
An interesting one to ponder. It could be from Zen and the Art of Partner Dance (if there was such a book). I remember a Tai Chi Tango teacher who would use such phrases to inspire us. (Not everyone's cup of chai admittedly, but I found it seemed to work.)

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by DavidB
Here's an interesting quote:

An absolute beginner (ie never danced at all) can't lead anything
An advanced dancer can actually lead nothing.
Learning to lead is understanding the difference.

This has the same feel to it as another one I like a great deal:

"Your conscience is the measure of the honesty of your selfishness. Listen to it well." (Richard Bach)

It took me a while to get hold of that too.

Chris

[Chris]

Originally posted by ChrisA
This has the same feel to it as another one I like a great deal:
"Your conscience is the measure of the honesty of your selfishness. Listen to it well." (Richard Bach)
It took me a while to get hold of that too.

Chris

So have you got hold of
"An absolute beginner (ie never danced at all) can't lead anything
An advanced dancer can actually lead nothing.
Learning to lead is understanding the difference. " ?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Chris
So have you got hold of
"An absolute beginner (ie never danced at all) can't lead anything
An advanced dancer can actually lead nothing.
Learning to lead is understanding the difference. " ?
Not yet.

When this student is ready, I expect a teacher will appear.

Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Not yet.

When this student is ready, I expect a teacher will appear.

Chris
Ah. Hi Prof.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by DavidB
Here's an interesting quote:

An absolute beginner (ie never danced at all) can't lead anything
An advanced dancer can actually lead nothing.
Learning to lead is understanding the difference.

And for me the real trick is being able to tell, in advance, which parters will know when you're leading 'nothing'...

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And for me the real trick is being able to tell, in advance, which parters will know when you're leading 'nothing'...
Moses would probably have been one that could.

[Graham]

Originally posted by DavidB
Here's an interesting quote:

An absolute beginner (ie never danced at all) can't lead anything
An advanced dancer can actually lead nothing.
Learning to lead is understanding the difference. Very wise (as usual!)

Good responses from Bill and Chris.

Originally posted by Gadget
For me a good follower should be able to react to what signals I am giving them (even if they are 'wrong'). If no signals are given, then I expect them to take up the reins, but relinquish them when I start to lead again. I disagree - if no signals are given (and I wish you hadn't used "signals" as this normally has a different meaning than the one you're using here) then the follower should do nothing - if you want her to improvise you should lead that too. (For simplicity I'm ignoring the possibility of the follower hijacking - I don't mean to imply she isn't allowed to do that).

[Graham]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And for me the real trick is being able to tell, in advance, which parters will know when you're leading 'nothing'... No, the real trick is being able to do it with anyone. If you need to pick your partner you're still learning!


Originally posted by ChrisA
Moses would probably have been one that could. :rofl:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Brady
Is this always the case. If I don't give a signal when I get on the floor, I would expect my partner not to do anything until I started to lead. If I allow my partner to improvise during the track, I will then convert over to 'follow mode' until I can sense that she is finished 'playing', then I take the lead again.
My getting onto the floor (and, more to the point, getting a partner onto the floor) is lead from when I offer my hand - before they even take it. If I don't do anything, then I expect that my partner will either mirror what I am {am not} doing, or see it as an invitation; I'm prepared for either.
I can visually 'follow' a lady's improvisation, but I can't seem to follow any physical leads she may try. :sorry:


One drill that I've taken away ~ is to just practice lead/follow with your partner by a) maintaining compression throughout a move (try the yo-yo) b) maintaining tension throughout a move.
Even harder to do without your partner noticing - I sometimes try things like this during the beginners class (when I have a non-beginner partner) with varying amounts of success. :sick:



Originally posted by Graham
I disagree - if no signals are given (and I wish you hadn't used "signals" as this normally has a different meaning than the one you're using here){OK, bad choice of wording - I do mean physical signals rather than semaphore} then the follower should do nothing - if you want her to improvise you should lead that too.
No; I think I get what you're getting at, but I think that you've got it the wrong way round {or I have :innocent:}:
- If I stop leading, I expect the lady to take over. What I mean is that they get no signals from me - neither compression or tension.
- If I want the lady to stop or do nothing, then I lead them to a stationary position; enough tension/compression to oppose their movements, but not enough to lead them in the opposite direction.

The phrase "you want her to improvise you should lead that too" is self contradicting - improvisation cannot be led; you can hint at the direction you want the lady to take, but she is the one who is doing her own thang.

[spindr]

Originally posted by Gadget The phrase "you want her to improvise you should lead that too" is self contradicting - improvisation cannot be led; you can hint at the direction you want the lady to take, but she is the one who is doing her own thang.

Yes and no. If you have a good rapor with your partner, you can make the lead "less assertive" -- they can pick up on that and realize that you're prepared to relinquish the lead (i.e. give them room to move and mirror them) for a while at least. It's not that the lead stops, but that it "lowers intensity".

SpinDr.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by spindr
Yes and no. If you have a good rapor with your partner, you can make the lead "less assertive" -- they can pick up on that and realize that you're prepared to relinquish the lead (i.e. give them room to move and mirror them) for a while at least. It's not that the lead stops, but that it "lowers intensity".

SpinDr.
I would argue that this is still leading; if you can lower the intensity enough that the lady can follow into a 'semi-improvised' bit of dance {can't think on a better choice of phrase}, then why is the rest of your leading so heavy-handed?

[frodo]

Originally posted by Chris
I remember a Tai Chi Tango teacherwho ...
Wow - (Tango) & (Tai Chi) or actually (Tai Chi Tango).:confused:

[spindr]

Originally posted by Gadget
I would argue that this is still leading; if you can lower the intensity enough that the lady can follow into a 'semi-improvised' bit of dance {can't think on a better choice of phrase}, then why is the rest of your leading so heavy-handed?

Well, I'll leave it to my victims to decide whether I'm heavy handed or not :)

Ok, I'll have a better go at explaining part of the "physics" here.
I am assuming that you have a lightish handhold, and that the lady's hand is cupped loosely over yours (and that loosely if the key part here). As you move your hand to lead the lady, there is a "neutral" point where the only contact between your hand and the lady's is on the "top" of your hand (top of the first finger you use to lead), there is no palm contact and there is no contact against the back of your fingers. To lead the lady forwsrds you move your hand (and arm) so that there is contact against your palm against the lady's hand. If you try really hard you can "find" that neutral point while the lady travels by moving your hand and arm so that they move exactly in parallel with the lady's hand -- so at this point the lead is reduced (in practice you won't get this to zero). The lady can pick up on this, and realise that there's a slight offer to improvise. If the lady doesn't pick up on this then as the step finishes you will leave the neutral hand position, so that there is contact against your palm, of the back of your fingers.

begin lousyanalogy:
As a one-time juggler (now a rusty, not a crusty) the analogy I would use is -- imagine you are holding a ball in your palm, to lead the ball to fall you can just lower your hand. To get into the "neutral" position you drop your hand slightly, so that the ball is released. You can keep this neutral/free-fall position as long as your hand keeps dropping at the same rate as the ball. When you want to catch the ball again, stop dropping your hand -- or even raise it, to catch it.
:end lousyanalogy

I find this easiest with travelling moves.

Works for me sometimes.
SpinDr.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by spindr
begin lousyanalogy:
As a one-time juggler (now a rusty, not a crusty) the analogy I would use is -- imagine you are holding a ball in your palm, to lead the ball to fall you can just lower your hand. To get into the "neutral" position you drop your hand slightly, so that the ball is released. You can keep this neutral/free-fall position as long as your hand keeps dropping at the same rate as the ball. When you want to catch the ball again, stop dropping your hand -- or even raise it, to catch it.
:end lousyanalogy

So does the follower (there are no ladies or mens positions in dance, that would be sexist:wink: ) hold the balls at the same time as the leader, does just one person hold the balls, is the the leader or follower that controls the balls (particularly their height:tears: ), how many balls are there, and most crucilly and the crux of my question - do you hold your own balls or your partners?:sick: And, even more importantly, how tightly do you hold them? :tears:

:wink:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by spindr
I am assuming that you have a lightish handhold, and that the lady's hand is cupped loosely over yours (and that loosely if the key part here).
{snip}
"neutral" point
{snip}
The lady can pick up on this, and realise that there's a slight offer to improvise.
{snip} I prefer not to have a completely 'neutral' point when leading. I always aim to have at least some compression or leverage in the lead, even when I am not actively leading a move. My lead then becomes a combination of increasing & decreasing this connection, or switching it from compression to leverage and back again. I find that this gives me greater control, and a better awareness of what the lady is doing, and is likely to do next. You can also make the invitation to improvise (the "window of opportunity") as long as you want. And you can do it with any hand hold, not just a standard one.

When you have a completely neutral position, it gives the lady no idea of what is coming next. It also allows the lady less to improvise with, as she can't use the man.

However my approach also has its drawbacks. Many ladies will take any leverage or compression as a lead, and will assume you are just leading another step badly. You also have to slightly change the timing of the move immediately prior to this 'invitation' lead, to make it more obvious what you are trying to do.

David

[Andy McGregor]

I agree with David B. My resting state of leading 'nothing' requires a certain tension. For me that tension is usually a slight pressure gently pulling my partner in my direction. I hope my partner interprets any change in the direction I apply that tension as a lead. But the resting state for me is an isometric thing where the tension between the partners is equal and results in no actual movement at all.

Some time ago I heard the description of how to hold a foil in fencing - and this could equally be applied to the tension between me and my partner. I was told to hold my sword as if it were a live bird that I didn't want to escape - but not to hold it so tightly that I squashed it. I did one hear a jive teacher say that the tension between partners should be enough to hold a jam doughnut but not enough to squeeze the jam out!

This brings me on to the things that,for me, go wrong with the connection. Personally I find a very common perpetual bouncing or flicking of my partners hand interrupts the tension and makes leading the way I do difficult. Often I also find that a partner who bounces/flicks their hand also does other things I haven't led. The most common ones are a sort of skipping with the feet, regular breaking of their shoulder and a shoulder height wave with the free hand on every step back - there's plenty of variations on these themes too. And what do I do? I just go along with it, try to lead the way I normally do which sometimes jars my wrist, elbow or shoulder:tears: And I sometimes get a cold stare from my skippy partner who is patiently waiting for the track to finish so her dance with the guy who doesn't know how to bounce his hand to the beat can be over. The bit that worries me most is, watching dancers at most classes, I'm the odd one out. Is it me and the 5% that do what I do or is it all of the others? The regularity that I'm asked 'what kind of dancing are you doing' makes me think it could be me:tears:

Maybe I should eat the doughnut, let that small bird go and put my balls in my pockets:wink:

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget
No; I think I get what you're getting at, but I think that you've got it the wrong way round {or I have :innocent:}:
- If I stop leading, I expect the lady to take over. What I mean is that they get no signals from me - neither compression or tension.
- If I want the lady to stop or do nothing, then I lead them to a stationary position; enough tension/compression to oppose their movements, but not enough to lead them in the opposite direction.

The phrase "you want her to improvise you should lead that too" is self contradicting - improvisation cannot be led; you can hint at the direction you want the lady to take, but she is the one who is doing her own thang. What I meant was that you should lead a stop. Once you've stopped the follower will (hopefully) realise that it's an opportunity to improvise and will do her own thang - obviously you're not leading what she actually does, just leading the "window". If you just stop leading then the follower has to decide if there actually is a lead which she's somehow not feeling, if you wanted to stop and just haven't lead it, or if you've momentarily lost the plot and normal service will be restored shortly.

[Jon]

Yes but Graham when I lead pauses its amazing how many times the lady will ask what am I suposed to do now or even worse look at you strangely wondering why you've stopped.

I think this trouble is caused by ceroc saying its a male led dance, and everyone is conditioned to think like that. It shouldn't be it's just dancing. I was chatting to a friend last night about this and it's not about leading moves, it's about the interaction between you your partner and the music and doing what feels natural.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Jon
Yes but Graham when I lead pauses its amazing how many times the lady will ask what am I suposed to do now or even worse look at you strangely wondering why you've stopped. Yes, that's normal - generally I don't lead a pause except with dancers who feel as if they're experienced, or who have previously grabbed the initiative, and if they have this baffled reaction I won't do it again (or at least not for a while!)

Originally posted by Jon
I think this trouble is caused by ceroc saying its a male led dance, and everyone is conditioned to think like that. They say that because it is. Or at least it is a lead-follow dance, where normally the man takes the lead part and the woman takes the follow part. There are other dance styles which are not lead-follow, and the dynamics are very different from modern jive.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Some time ago I heard the description of how to hold a foil in fencing...
OK, your versions are somewhat cleaner than I was taught :innocent:.
I have noticed more than once that there are remarkable similarities in the grip and guidance {even down to DavidB advocating the 'pistol' grip} of a lead and manipulating a weapon.

Originally posted by DavidB
When you have a completely neutral position, it gives the lady no idea of what is coming next. It also allows the lady less to improvise with, as she can't use the man.
Perhaps this is where I go wrong then? As with SpinDr, I tend to 'stop leading' from a move that has some momentum so that the lady's natural fall/flow of the hand could be taken as an invitation. Perhaps I am being too subtle?
If I want a lady to improvise from a 'stop'; then I will stop them, then remove the lead untill she gives me an indication of what she is doing, then try to give her something to work with: The 'invitation' is the removal of the lead.

I also take Jon's point that the lady can look puzzled and ask what to do - If the lady does not pick up on the 'gap', then I close it fairly quickly; if they then react with the "Dam; I missed it" expression, I will look for another opportunity in the music.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gadget
OK, your versions are somewhat cleaner than I was taught :innocent:.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'd forgotten about that other method of describing how tightly to hold your weapon...


Originally posted by Gadget
I have noticed more than once that there are remarkable similarities in the grip and guidance {even down to DavidB advocating the 'pistol' grip} of a lead and manipulating a weapon.


That struck me immediately too.

For those of you that aren't fencers like Gadget and me there is a type of sword handle called a pistol grip and the hand shape you make when holding it is a tighter version of the one David B described. This is especially noticeable to people gifted with left-handedness :wink:

The similarities between martial arts and dancing keep surprising me. I think that the "Dancing as a demonstration of fighting skill" argument is supported by these similarities.

Although I'm not so sure about the argument that females of the species want to mate with good dancers/fighters is true in my case:tears:

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Although I'm not so sure about the argument that females of the species want to mate with good dancers/fighters is true in my case:tears: Hmm... Martial Arts, Marital Arts - typo or Freudian slip?

Dave

[spindr]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
So does the follower (there are no ladies or mens positions in dance, that would be sexist:wink: ) hold the balls at the same time as the leader, does just one person hold the balls, is the the leader or follower that controls the balls (particularly their height:tears: ), how many balls are there, and most crucilly and the crux of my question - do you hold your own balls or your partners?:sick: And, even more importantly, how tightly do you hold them? :tears: :wink:

Round spherical objects! I should have known it was tempting providence :)

Although, now I think of it I guess it would count as advanced lead/follow -- if you're led by 'em you're sure to follow. But then again I think Ballroom dancers seem to have the most balls...

SpinDr.

[spindr]

Originally posted by DavidB
I prefer not to have a completely 'neutral' point when leading. I always aim to have at least some compression or leverage in the lead, even when I am not actively leading a move. My lead then becomes a combination of increasing & decreasing this connection, or switching it from compression to leverage and back again.

You're absolutely right, I was just trying to capture the idea of changing the tension within the "single" step, as it were.



However my approach also has its drawbacks. Many ladies will take any leverage or compression as a lead, and will assume you are just leading another step badly. You also have to slightly change the timing of the move immediately prior to this 'invitation' lead, to make it more obvious what you are trying to do.

David

I think this is why I find this easier on travelling moves, as I can "stretch" the timing of the travel (which also gives the follower more time to realise something strange has happened to the lead). And yes, it's not many ladies who will pick up on it, but then I haven't really "seen" it taught -- I've picked up on it from dancing with Jules.

SpinDr.