Ceroc Advanced Lessons

[Gus]

OK ... enough of the dismal scaremongering elsewhere ... a positive thread awaits!

I believe (and I think this is fact rather than speculation) that Ceroc are seriously looking at delivering advanced lessons through the CTA network. WITHOUT entering into a debate about how CTA teachers will be trained or competency levels ... what would YOU the target audience for such lesson wish to receive?

The Oracle has already pointed out there is no definitions to what an advanced lesson should comprise of ... so this is an opportunity to feedback to CTA HQ what you think should be delivered.

[Chris]

I don't know that I would go to a Ceroc teacher for 'advanced' lessons . . .

The big change they need is to teach seriously - at that level people do not need jokes, suggestions or other things to keep them motivated and amused. they want instruction - they expect the teacher to know what they are teaching and to get on with it, not have some fun little sharing session.

Based on the teachers they've got however, they are more likely to be advanced/intermediate. You have to have the material and the techniques, and it's more about having those than being competition winners (reminds me of teaching a post-graduate class - which I've done on occasion - most of the students were better qualified than I was but I still had a job to do imparting kowledge they didn't have. And it wasn't my job to 'motivate' them - at that level they have already developed listening and attention skills.)

The best thing would be to do what other dance genres do - have guest advanced teachers (non-ceroc). If you use existing teachers it's going to be very expensive I would think to train them now.

The other hurdle is the old 'what is advanced', as Amir and James have pointed out elsewhere - unless there is some understanding of what people should be able to do and understand at intermediate level it slows things down for anyone teaching advanced. A prep 'moving up' class would be good first, so that dancers could be made aware of what they should be capable of before attempting an advanced class.

Having said that I'm sure they'll come up with something that will work fine for most people - my own view is biassed as I like the NZ model (long may it endure), but that wouldn't go down well here.

[Gus]

OK ... so what I would like:

simply a balance between more complex moves and dance style/timing being taught. Most people know more moves than they will ever need to use ... what most dancers need is to be taught how to dance better.

[DavidB]

This is what I'd like to see offered.

A list of topics they are going to teach over the course of 3 or 6 months , eg
- musical interpretation
- how to spin
- creating your own style
- what looks good, and what doesn't
- Latin movement
- hip-hop movement
- lead/follow
- ceating complex moves from simple ones
- choreography for routines
- choreography for freestyle
- competition technique
- complex moves (because it will still appeal to a lot of dancers)
etc

A realisation that you can't teach an entire topic in one 30 minute class. So each topic should evolve into a series of individual workshops, each covering one or two ideas.

A breakdown within each topic, describing what they are teaching, who it should appeal to, and any requirements for the participants

A timetable listing when each topic is going to be taught. Not everyone is interested in learning everything.

Useful information on the teachers. "X has been teaching Ceroc for 8 years" is not relevant to anyone. "X has a background in Ballroom and Latin, and will be bringing some of these ideas into the lead/follow workshop" is useful.

A balance between theory and practice. This could involve teaching a new move that illustrates an idea, a series of exercises, or opportunities to do freestyle. But you have to let people know in advance if they aren't going to learn new moves - that is all they usually expect from a class.

A 5 minute recap at the start of each workshop, covering any relevant previous workshops in the topic.

Above all - teaching people what they need to get better, and not just what you think won't put a few new intermediates off. Trying to pass of the Hammersmith masterclasses as advanced workshops would be a joke.


Never mind Ceroc - I'd like to see something like this done at Camber or Bognor. A third set of workshops running alongside the existing ones, concentrating on just a few topics in more detail, eg:
- Sat am - Lead & Follow
- Sat pm - Musical Interpretation
- Sun am - Dancing with a hangover and sore feet!
- Sun pm - Style
Get the best teachers there to put together a series of advanced workshops in these topics. The advantage of Camber & Bognor is that there is plenty of other choices for dancers who aren't interested.

David

[Lory]

And now I know why David is called the Oricle, he has said everything I would have liked to have said but didn't know how!
:cheers: :kiss: :nice: :kiss: :cheers:

[Lory]

- Sun am - Dancing with a hangover and sore feet!

and while I'm at it, book me up for that one!
:rofl:

[Jive Brummie]

Well said Lory. David has hit the nail on the head. I also agree with Gus though. Most dancers need to be taught how to dance better.

Good to hear that Ceroc are looking into advanced classes. It get's mentioned so very often that it surley couldn't be ignored much longer.

Can only imagine how popular the classes will be. Which makes me think... how do you know if you're capable of doing an advanced class.

Having said that.. it'd be a great challenge.....

.....bring it on:yum:

James

[Daphne]

Smaller classes would be essential. Not the regular teachers (no disrespect intended). How would you define 'advanced' anyway? There are many regular ceroc dancers in Scotland whom I would class as advanced. Very few people seem to be both advanced dancers and good teachers, but we've been there before.......

[Chris]

Nice list David, but it's either an advanced class or it's not, or a taster of other styles. Most 'advanced' classes have been doomed to be classes that should be taught at intermediate level tarted up with a tiny bit of extra style or footwork, or tired combinations of existing intermediate moves passed off as advanced. This might well be what people want, but it's not advanced Jive IMO (only IMO as there's so many - I've heard a teacher at MJC say that his advanced class was mostly Lindy - since advanced jive is Lindy - not an opinion I share, especialy after seeing MJ style and MJ moves taught at advanced (and at intermediate) level in NZ or by teachers from down under.)

The lack of definition means it often comes down to a battle of the egos among experienced teachers - and the ones with the biggest CV will be believed, whether they can teach advanced jive or not. At least with your idea of getting teachers who introduce themselves on the basis of experience in other styles dancers will get a broader appreciation of dance per se and maybe go outside MJ in order to improve their dancing generally. But this is IMO an upgraded version of the 'taster' classes already offered at Cambers.

Personally I think there maybe is not much of a market for advanced jive in the UK - you have intermediate teaching and a more advanced, more professional and structured version of intermediate teaching. If that takes off you could pave the way for advanced classes though.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie

....Which makes me think... how do you know if you're capable of doing an advanced class.


Oh .... thats EASY! Its totaly dependant on the size of the dnancers ego!:what: To explain, we teach 'advanced' lessons on a monthly basis ... I've stood on stage and stated very clearly that you should have been dancing for 6+ months to do the class .... and I STILL get numpties just out of beginners who insist on doing the class .... and I still get other who have totaly failed pick up the flow of the moves or style yet still have the audacity to claim the class was TOO EASY:tears:

Personal opinion, advanced lessons have no place on a club night. By defintion, its advanced techniques or style you have to teach in a smaller focused group in a workshop environment. Why do I get roped into teaching advanced lessons on a club night?? ... purely a competition thing ..... people want the classes so Blitz provides them, even if in the long term it is detrimental to the attendees dancing advancement

[rant over]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Gus
The Oracle has already pointed out there is no definitions to what an advanced lesson should comprise of

No, but the content and and level experience required can be defined and so distinguish it from an intermediate class.

Intermediate ceroc, (and the same for intermediate cerocshops and styleshops) for instance, assumes that dancers attending the class understand the names of the 16 basic ceroc moves and how to do them. That way the teacher can build on them.

The same goes for advanced (or what I would call advanced). The teacher needs to be able to assume that the dancers attending have a knowledge of certain techniques, style principles and moves.

In an informal setting, this will often mean checking before each section. "Do you all know . . ." (such and such)? and if not, teaching the requisite intermediate component move, technique or style variation that is used as a building block for the advanced section.

It is not about how long someone has been dancing, it is whether they have acquired the requisite knowledge to participate in an advanced class - and that might vary according to the advanced class in question. And it would be helpful for dancers to have some indication of whatever a particular class leader for an advanced session will expect the student to have covered.

(I'm using the word 'student' as I think it is reasonable to expect a greater degree of attention in an advanced class - eg less talking on the dance floor.)

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by DavidB
This is what I'd like to see offered.

A list of topics they are going to teach over the course of 3 or 6 months , eg
snip...
Never mind Ceroc - I'd like to see something like this done at Camber or Bognor. A third set of workshops running alongside the existing ones, concentrating on just a few topics in more detail, eg:
- Sat am - Lead & Follow
- Sat pm - Musical Interpretation
- Sun am - Dancing with a hangover and sore feet!
- Sun pm - Style
Get the best teachers there to put together a series of advanced workshops in these topics. The advantage of Camber & Bognor is that there is plenty of other choices for dancers who aren't interested.

David
sounds great, but I don't agree
not sure if it would work in the 'fast food' format of teaching we seem to use and is liked by the dancers.

Amir does this at Hipsters (I think) yet many of the advanced dancers arrive after the class.
An advance class must have a target group of dancers they are trying to attract - I would assume these are intermediate dancers still hungry to learn anything and find most classes to easy. (frequently these guys need to focus on style not moves)
A number of your pointers spinning, music interpretation style can be covered in the existing class format - every class could start with 10mins spinning lesson.
Moves from alternative dance styles are commonplace - Nigel = Lindy, Viktor = Salsa, Amir = Tango I am sure this is not exclusive to hipsters

In my experience advanced classes range from
Loads of moves that just boggle the mind
Seriously complicated arm twisters that cant be led in freestyle.
Mixture of alternative dance styles, some of which work others are to contrived
The true advanced ceroc moves that look good and work, but are limited in number.

I would like to see advanced teachers proficient in more than one dance style and smoothly build that style into the lesson.

Publicising the classes in advance sounds great, but what if the dancers don't like the format - how can you change it
or
Certain classes could be avoided - I would not bother with say hip hop
A re run of previous class could be a nightmare as not everyone would have been in previous class
.
There has already been mention on this forum that Viktor is dumbing his Hipsters class down - yet Hipsters is perceived as the Mecca for advanced dancers.
Hipsters Tuesdays offers MJ & Lindy, Bisley Tuesdays offers MJ/Salsa (shame they are same day), this seems a successful formula.
In my experience if you go to an advanced class at Salsa and are not up to scratch they ask you to move down a level - the system does work, but would cerocers like it.

I think Ceroc could/should offer dance alternatives at advanced level, but to say to 200+ this is advanced class when over half may not be able to keep up is wrong, if the dancers don't enjoy it they vote with their feet
these organiser needs those 200+ dancers at his/her venue.
I think a venue with split classes would be my favourite approach and the final format will be devised by the teacher to suit the dancers.
That is why they are trained to an advanced level. But there is no point in training the teachers to advanced level if the format does not lend itself to genuine advanced classes.

Camber ideas - I don't think it would be that popular but it may be possible - I raised the 'games room' on another thread - this is suited to small classes of 50 dancers.
At MJC this is covered and works but Cambers popularity/strengths seems to be with big classes and dance moves
Peter

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Chris
Personally I think there maybe is not much of a market for advanced jive in the UK - you have intermediate teaching and a more advanced, more professional and structured version of intermediate teaching. If that takes off you could pave the way for advanced classes though. If I understand you correct Chris you feel that there is no market for advanced MJ in the UK but there is in NZ is this correct?

[Chris]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
If I understand you correct Chris you feel that there is no market for advanced MJ in the UK but there is in NZ is this correct?

I wouldn't particularly like that quoted out of context, but to an extent yes, because there is not the structure for it here (as evidenced by some of the problems you and others have pointed out) and there is a lack of teacher training on anything that is specifically advanced jive (rather than intermediate that has been made more complex etc).

In saying there's not the market, I mean not the market to make it viable. That's not to say there won't be pockets or various attempts called advanced jive; and it's not to say there aren't many superb advanced dancers in the UK that are on an equal level with those at the top end of the NZ system - I'm talking about the difference in structures, not saying NZ is 'better' (if this makes sense).

[Lory]

Maybe it might come down to the teacher paying a little individual attention to each couple.

When I did Ballet, tap and Jazz the teacher taught us all as a group, then watched each person in turn and gave each person personal pointers.

Pointers on style for instance.
The other couples in the group would learn from these pointers too.

You couldn't do this on an average Ceroc night as people would loose confidence and feel like they are being picked on but the people that would be going to an advanced night, obviously want to take it to the next level so would be more open to positive criticism

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Chris
I wouldn't particularly like that quoted out of context, but to an extent yes, because there is not the structure for it here (as evidenced by some of the problems you and others have pointed out) and the lack of teacher training on anything that is specifically advanced jive (rather than intermediate that has been made more complex etc).

In saying there's not the market, I mean not the market to make it viable. That's not to say there won't be pockets or various attempts called advanced jive; and it's not to say there aren't many superb advanced dancers in the UK that are on an equal level with those at the top end of the NZ system - I'm talking about the difference in structures, not saying NZ is 'better' (if this makes sense). Sorry Chris I think you need a new pair of rose tinted glasses they are bluring your vision IMHO
How many cerocers/MJ dancers in NZ compared to UK
PLEASE SOMEONE ANSWER THIS ONE

Perhaps IN THE UK we have focused on big numbers so this may outweigh the comparative number of advaced dancers out there.
In london area the advanced dancers can be spread over dozens of venues in any given week.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Sorry Chris I think you need a new pair of rose tinted glasses they are bluring your vision IMHO
How many cerocers/MJ dancers in NZ compared to UK
PLEASE SOMEONE ANSWER THIS ONE

Perhaps IN THE UK we have focused on big numbers so this may outweigh the comparative number of advaced dancers out there.
In london area the advanced dancers can be spread over dozens of venues in any given week.

Well, Liz my old' reptile, if you look at what I say you'll see I'm talking about the structure, not the numbers. NZ, I would guess, has about as many ceroccers as say, Glasgow and Edinburgh combined. Max.

Is it possible for me to mention NZ without people going into a 'who's best'??

The structure in NZ has grading, so it is an easy matter to introduce advanced classes. And, although teachers have great freedom on what they teach, there is a ready made tidy segment of dancers who have covered a specific syllabus. Intermediate dancers are not admitted.

Here you would need a different formula. I think that the formula needs to be developed. The market isn't to do with the number of dancers, it's to do with the composition of the market - and the point JiveBrummie made about how do people know if they can do the advanced class.

Keep up Lizard, my dear amphibian, and don't see arguments where I'm not making one - I get into enough scraps of my own making! :wink:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Sorry Chris I think you need a new pair of rose tinted glasses they are bluring your vision IMHO
How many cerocers/MJ dancers in NZ compared to UK
PLEASE SOMEONE ANSWER THIS ONE



I'm not sure what Chris is basing his assesment on (I'n NOT saying he is wrong ... just I have a different view). Chris could you, for reference sake, explain where you taught and trained because this may have a big bearing on things.

My own experience of NZ is attending a number of classes and teaching at advanced level at their big teaching weekend (the NZ equivalent of JiveSpree/MJC). Now, I'm obviously not an A list instructor in the UK, but I did teach at advanced level alongside their top teachers and I didn't embaress myself or find that the NZ standard was outside my skillset. What I trying to say (maybe clumbsily) is that the attitude to Advanced workshops is NO DIFFERENT in NZ than it is here! We do more musical interprestation and UCP, they do more arials and drops .... no refelection on standard.

The ONLY difference I would agree with is that they have advanced classes (on a single night they may have a beginner 30 mins, intermediate 30 mins and a advanced 30 mins). This works well in some cases, less well in others. But please dont get the impression that NZ is way ahead of us. That said ... they do have some awesome dancers/teachers ... especially the legendary Paul Tavanasau (respect!)

[Chris]

In answer to Gus, my experience of NZ Ceroc is based solely on Auckland, and mostly The Studio. But many people who are far better placed than I am have commented on things like the length and format of classes there or the grading system. Again, as I said to Lizard, the only thing I'm comparing is the structures - it makes no sense to argue about 'who's best'. And if this is too fine a distinction for some people then there's no point in my mentioning that even, but it was meant as a constructive contribution. No offence to anyone intended at all.

And although I'd agree on many of your earlier posts about New Zealand I think I'd differ with you on inasmuch as I believe lack of style and musicality is a misconception - I'd base that not so much on what I've seen there but on discussions with Ange about her style classes (her specialty) and the evidence of style and musicality in the championships tape I have. If you want to turn this into a NZ vs UK discussion I'm outa here. there's things that can be learnt by NZ from UK and things the other way round. As NZ has a well established structure for advanced classes I think that is one thing where we could usefully put ego aside and see if there's something to be gleaned and adapted.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

How many cerocers/MJ dancers in NZ compared to UK
PLEASE SOMEONE ANSWER THIS ONE


OK, i'm curious about this myself so I'm going to work it out. I can't add up the entire number doing classes in NZ, because in NZ franchises pay a fixed fee rather than a fee per person attending a ceroc class, so there are no fixed figures on numbers, unlike uk. I can estimate for the main city though.

Auckland 1 Million Population
Approximate proportion of Aucklanders that have heard of ceroc 50%. Approximate proportion of Aucklanders that have done ceroc 5%, ie a couple of people at most house parties. Ceroc is banned at almost all Auckland nightclubs because cerocers take up too much space on the dance floors. Although every couple of years they let you, then it gets too crowded and is banned again.

central - 60 people per night 4 nights. 240 per week
west - 100 people per night, 2 nights. 200 per week
east - 50 people per night, 2 nights. 100 per week
north 1 - 50 people per night, 2 nights. 100 per week
north 2 - 50 people per night, 2 nights. 100 per week

Approximately 700-800 people per week do ceroc in Auckland including the suburbs.

Lonodon 15 Million Population
Approximate proportion of Londoners that have heard of ceroc 4%. Approximate proportion of Londoners that have done ceroc <1%. There are maybe 18 nights in Lonodon including suburbs of 200 per night.

That makes 3500 people doing ceroc in London per week. (wild estimate, i've never counted or been round all the venues)

So with 15 times as many people in london, there are 5 times as many people dancing, or a third the level of penetration. Hmmm, it doesn't explain why no-one you meet in London seems to have heard of ceroc or done it, even though its been running longer there. Maybe the poplulation is much more transient.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Chris

And although I'd agree on many of your earlier posts about New Zealand I think I'd differ with you on inasmuch as I believe lack of style and musicality is a
Apologies if thats the impression I gave ... wasn't trying to say they had NO style/musicality (:tears: ) ... just that there is a different emphasis.

BACK TO THE THREAD!!

While we wait for more dancers to put their wants forward ... what would be really good if a CTA teacher or (even better) CTA HQ could putus out of our misery and post any indication/details of whats been cooked up for us.:waycool:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Gus
Oh .... thats EASY! Its totaly dependant on the size of the dancers ego!

:rofl: :rofl:

Yeah. for 10 years Auckland had a beg - int - adv structure where people could go to whichever level they choose. The same thing happened Gus. After a few weeks some people would go straight to the advanced classes. They would proudly tell people they were an 'advanced' dancer. Its a system of self-assessment!! Argghh!! All you're saying is that you consider yourself great.

Anyway now they have a fearsome assessment form which a teacher fills out if you want to move up to the next level class. I don't think teachers ever need to fail anyone, because people are scared enough of the fearsome forms that they wait longer before moving up now. Seems to have worked pretty well. Gives people little milestones or goals too. And it gives useful feedback to people who need it (I'm not being smart, I'm being serious).

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB
This is what I'd like to see offered.

A list of topics they are going to teach over the course of 3 or 6 months , eg
- what looks good, and what doesn't


I only want to learn what looks good! I have enough bad habits without having to learn the things that don't look good!

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
Good to hear that Ceroc are looking into advanced classes.
[/B]

I think Mic currently teaches advanced classes for adam, ceroc metro, north london, and has for quite some time. I don't think ceroc as a whole can move to 'advanced classes', just individual teachers within ceroc, and only by devising classes with their own initiative rather than through an 'advanced' ceroc standardised format. This is because advanced classes are about continual new moves each week (sad but true), and a person passing on their style (much better). Which is about an individual teacher rather than a standardised format.

[Dan]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I don't think ceroc as a whole can move to 'advanced classes', just individual teachers within ceroc, and only by devising classes with their own initiative rather than through an 'advanced' ceroc standardised format. This is because advanced classes are about continual new moves each week (sad but true), and a person passing on their style (much better). Which is about an individual teacher rather than a standardised format.

Very true.
I am not an advanced dancer but I have attended countless intermediate classes and a number of "style" workshops. The only ones which have been helpful to me are those where the teachers' style has some similarity with my own way of dancing and is relevant to the way that I am able and willing to develop my dancing to a better level.
The best classes are those where the teachers pass on their own style, the moves that suit that style and specially the "feeling" for the moves.
The worst classes are normally those where the teachers learn the moves from the Ceroc handbook 10 minutes before the start of the class. Enough said!

Yes, I have to agree with Mr Geary! I am obviously not feeling well!

Andre

[Alfie]

Hi All,
I've been dancing for a number of years now and have , danced ,demmo'd and taxied my way round most of the venues in the Midlands and the Northwest.

I used to look for venues that advertised advanced lessons and make a special effort to get myself onto workshops with advanced teachers.

I have found that alot of advanced stuff taught, is great but is unuseable on a social dance floor. Club D.Js do not play enough music that stretches the immagination, talents and skills of the more advanced dancers because they are catering for the masses.

The problem with inexperienced dancers becomming envolved in an advanced class is hard to resolve. Alot of punters newer to the jive world have no yardstick on which to base they're abillities after branching out into intermediate classes. Who is to tell them that they are not ready to try advanced lessons, who has the right to make presumptions on any dancers abillities.

This surely would stop people progressing past intermediates

We are after all paying customers and have the right as such to value for money and access to tuition from the teachers employed by the venue at all levels. To close a class off to a group of paying customers because someone tells them they are not of a good enough standard to participate in my oppinion is wrong, it can damage peoples confidence and can be seen as encouraging eletism in some quarters.

I think advanced/fusion jive should be taught in small workshops where the tuition is more personal and the music will be right for the moves taught. Also as workshops cost more than a class night people who reqire advanced tuition will make the effort to pay for somthing a bit special and out of the norm that is not available to an average class enviroment.
These are only my oppinions so I'll sit back and wait to flamed.

[TheTramp]

Advanced classes are a difficult and problematic question I think.

My opinion is that very few classes that are advertised as 'advanced' are actually that. Certainly the ones at Camber/Bognor weekends don't (in the main) come close. (And one of those recently that would probably be classed as advanced, had a lot of people leaving, because they couldn't cope).

I think that there are many facets of what makes an advanced class - I agree with a lot of what DavidB says
- musical interpretation
- how to spin
- creating your own style
- what looks good, and what doesn't
- Latin movement
- hip-hop movement
- lead/follow
- ceating complex moves from simple ones
- choreography for routines
- choreography for freestyle
- competition technique
- complex moves (because it will still appeal to a lot of dancers) although, I would add in dips and drops (and maybe some of the smaller airsteps (unless you were including those in 'complex moves' David)), because that's what (at least some) people who go to 'advanced' classes expect, and you have to give people what they want.

I think that it's very difficult to tell people that they are not 'advanced' enough to do the class (although, I would argue that maybe the organiser or teacher does have the right). And it then becomes difficult as those people that shouldn't be in the class, will hold up the people that should. And they've all paid their money, so the people who should be there deserve to get their money's worth.

Hence, one solution would be that all advanced classes should be fixed partners. And the teacher should not be expected to slow down to ensure that every couple in the class are keeping up. Once the majority of the class have got that particular aspect that is being taught, the teacher should move on. I also agree with those people that have said that advanced classes should be kept smaller. Although, by definition, they really should be smaller anyhow.

Steve

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
There has already been mention on this forum that Viktor is dumbing his Hipsters class down - yet Hipsters is perceived as the Mecca for advanced dancers.

Since I was one that commented on Viktor's Wednesday class at Hipsters perhaps I'd better pick up on this...

Firstly, it's Hipsters on Tuesday that has the "advanced" connotations ... with a lesson from Amir and one from Nigel.

On Wednesday, Viktor follows a very Ceroc-like format, and teaches a beginners class that is no more difficult than a standard Ceroc beginners class.

His intermediate/advanced class on Wednesday got, IMHO, a quite undeserved reputation for exceptional difficulty following the class he did the day after Tuesday Hipsters was closed a few weeks back. There were free passes for that Wed given to all the Tuesday crowd, so that lesson was an exception since it was obviously aimed at the Tuesday lot as well.

I've been to most of V's Wed classes in the last six months and typically it is no harder than many intermediate Ceroc classes, expect that there is invariably one move in the routine that is trickier than you'd normally find in a Ceroc Intermediate class.

On the strength of which, I don't understand why it's feted as "advanced".

I didn't use the term "dumbing down", IIRC. I've been to a few of his Bisley Tuesday classes, on which the Wed class is based, and the only reason he cuts down the length at Hipsters is because people don't seem to get the moves as quickly as they do at Bisley, so there isn't time.

Quite a few of the people that were pretty new beginners only a few months ago have started going to his intermediate class, and this may account for the class having to go slower than at Bisley, where the intermediates seem a bit more experienced.

This is, of course, a tribute not just to Viktor's teaching, but Nigel and Jules as well, who take the beginners' review - I frequently dance with most of these ex-beginners and many of them are doing _really_ well.

Chris

[DavidB]

I don't think any venue should run advanced classes instead of the beginners or intermediate classes. Why annoy 100 dancers just to appeal to 10? And running them afterwards would take up too much of the freestyle. The ideal time might be at the same time as the beginners??? This would of course need a second teacher, which brings on the next point...

...Advanced classes shouldn't be run on a profit-making basis by themselves. The long term commercial idea should be that by getting more of the good dancers to come to a venue, that will attract more of the intermediate dancers to come regularly.

The classes at Hipsters aren't advanced. They are just slightly harder than the average Ceroc intermediate class, with the occasional exercises or tips thrown in. (I suppose that does make them advanced in comparison to most other classes?) They don't have any option - they have to make money on the classes, so have to pitch them at a level where the majority of people can manage to do the class. They also have to teach people what they want to learn - not what they actually need to learn to become better dancers.

If another venue came along and offered the advanced dancers something, then they would quickly leave Hipsters. Most go currently simply because everyone else goes there, and not for the classes. They have no loyalty - many have already deserted the Casbah, Fulham and Camber in the past.

The more I think about it, the less successful I can see advanced classes being in the UK. The problem is that so few people are prepared to put any time or effort into becoming better dancers. The few that I know of (eg Will & Kate, David Rokov & Val Forsey) did work hard with the aim of doing competitions, but significantly improved their general dancing as a result. (Obviously in Will's case it would have been difficult to get any worse.) Just doing an advanced class won't make you any better - you have to consciously work on the ideas being presented every time you dance, and be prepared to get worse before you get better. You have to expect to be told that what you are doing is either wrong, or can be done far better. Unfortunately not everything in dancing is as quick and easy to learn as a First Move.

This does conflict with the wishes of the vast majority of Modern Jive dancers, who just want to have fun. So keep the current fun intermediate classes, introduce an advanced class if you think there is enough demand, but don't ruin it for everyone by trying to have a single one-size-fits-all class.

[Lory]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I think Mic currently teaches advanced classes for adam, ceroc metro, north london, and has for quite some time. I don't think ceroc as a whole can move to 'advanced classes', just individual teachers within ceroc, and only by devising classes with their own initiative rather than through an 'advanced' ceroc standardised format. This is because advanced classes are about continual new moves each week (sad but true), and a person passing on their style (much better). Which is about an individual teacher rather than a standardised format.

No, the classes stopped some time back!!

I refer to my posting on the 'Ceroc or not' thread

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1717&perpage=20&pagenumber=5 (http://http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1717&perpage=20&pagenumber=5)

Not sure if this link works but its half way down page 5 of 'Ceroc or not'

[DavidY]

Originally posted by DavidB
You have to expect to be told that what you are doing is either wrong, or can be done far better.I'd love to have an expert tell me what I'm doing wrong.

How about a workshop which starts by videoing your dancing and then telling you what you're doing wrong? Have been to training like this before in a non-dance environment - it's very uncomfortable but can also be very effective.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by DavidY
I'd love to have an expert tell me what I'm doing wrong.

How about a workshop which starts by videoing your dancing and then telling you what you're doing wrong? Have been to training like this before in a non-dance environment - it's very uncomfortable but can also be very effective.

Mirrored walls are useful too.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by DavidB
Unfortunately not everything in dancing is as quick and easy to learn as a First Move.
Oh god...

After one of Amir's classes, I come away thinking I still can't do one of those...


The classes at Hipsters aren't advanced.

Oh, that's ok then. :what:

Chris

[Starlight Dancer]

Originally posted by DavidY
I'd love to have an expert tell me what I'm doing wrong.

How about a workshop which starts by videoing your dancing and then telling you what you're doing wrong? Have been to training like this before in a non-dance environment - it's very uncomfortable but can also be very effective.

Yes please, can you arrange it? I don't mind the discomfort!

This is actually an excellent idea and its a real shame the attentiveness is often missed in the ceroc workshops. Sometimes a specialist group is called for.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I would assume these are intermediate dancers still hungry to learn anything and find most classes to easy. (frequently these guys need to focus on style not moves)
Peter

Completely agree with this Peter. This is all too often the problem. Eager intermediates trying to learn millions of new moves when they can't even dance the ones they know.
I'd rather have 'advanced' classes in stlye, lead/follow, musical interprtation.....etc, etc....and all that good stuff David B mentioned.

If it's a choice between knowing 345 billion moves badly and 30 moves with a little style and grace, i know where i'd rather be :wink:

filthycute x x

[Will]

Originally posted by the Port Guzzling Judge
(Obviously in Will's case it would have been difficult to get any worse.)
I have a 0 word response to that.....

http://images.ofoto.com/photos527/1/2/25/72/57/1/157722502103_0_ALB.jpg

[Gary]

Nicky's been running an advanced class on Sunday nights for the last five weeks (the last one is next week). We've done a lot of exercises with a "buddy" couple, where couple A dances, couple B critiques, then swap. It seems to me that our buddy couple has improved a lot over the five weeks so far (they pulled out the stops for the last exercise and my jaw just dropped).

The class was not run at the same time as normal classes, and with limited numbers. I was a bit surprised because I was expecting advanced dancers to do the course, but I'd say all of us doing the course were more high-level intermediate dancers.

The things that really have made an impact on me so far have been:

* getting the couple to have "mirrored" lines through moves looks really great, but is going to take a lot of work, probably in a mirrored studio (now where do I find one of those?)

* The "buddy" couple system is fantastic (if your ego can take a beating). I'd like to try it with more immediate feedback, i.e. having the buddy couple yell at you while you're dancing, as well as critiquing afterwards.

* pauses, attitude wiggles, all the "extra" bits that aren't just running through normal MJ moves really grab the eye and make the dancers look special. We (the dancers in the class) mostly under-do this stuff, but I noticed while critiquing that this stuff really works well. Guess I need to head off for a few funk classes.

There was obviously lots more stuff, but these are the things that have resonated with me.


Originally posted by TheTramp

Hence, one solution would be that all advanced classes should be fixed partners. And the teacher should not be expected to slow down to ensure that every couple in the class are keeping up. Once the majority of the class have got that particular aspect that is being taught, the teacher should move on. I also agree with those people that have said that advanced classes should be kept smaller. Although, by definition, they really should be smaller anyhow.


Check, and check. Fixed partners is important both because if I overestimate my ability I only disadvantage my partner, and also because some of the advanced stuff is about couple chemistry/mirroring, so I need to do that with my partner.


Originally posted by DavidY
I'd love to have an expert tell me what I'm doing wrong.

How about a workshop which starts by videoing your dancing and then telling you what you're doing wrong? Have been to training like this before in a non-dance environment - it's very uncomfortable but can also be very effective.

Nicky's been doing that (video-ing us all) and will be giving us individual feedback from the videos next week. The "buddy" couple thing has also been fantastic, so much so that I really want to do this in preparation for the next comps. Does anyone else do this?

[Gary]

Originally posted by DavidB
I don't think any venue should run advanced classes instead of the beginners or intermediate classes. Why annoy 100 dancers just to appeal to 10? And running them afterwards would take up too much of the freestyle. The ideal time might be at the same time as the beginners??? This would of course need a second teacher, which brings on the next point...


Nicky's monthly advanced classes are run at the same time as the intermediate class.



...Advanced classes shouldn't be run on a profit-making basis by themselves. The long term commercial idea should be that by getting more of the good dancers to come to a venue, that will attract more of the intermediate dancers to come regularly.


Does that work? I don't know how much it attracts intermediate dancers to have better dancers at a venue. I imagine it'd also depend on how the better dancers feel about dancing with the intermediate dancers (fantastic and friendly dancers would be great).



They also have to teach people what they want to learn - not what they actually need to learn to become better dancers.


There aren't that many folks who want to do the hard yards to get better (and I guess a lot of those that do head off to other styles).



If another venue came along and offered the advanced dancers something, then they would quickly leave Hipsters. Most go currently simply because everyone else goes there, and not for the classes. They have no loyalty - many have already deserted the Casbah, Fulham and Camber in the past.


I decided a while ago that MJ organisations are businesses, and making very sure that they make money, so my money (and not my loyalty) is what they get. I don't begrudge them the money, but I don't feel guilty about not giving them loyalty. People get loyalty, businesses get money.


Just doing an advanced class won't make you any better - you have to consciously work on the ideas being presented every time you dance, and be prepared to get worse before you get better.

That's another thing I'm having trouble with. Almost all of my dancing is plain social fun dancing, and I forget to concentrate. Sometimes doing beginner class is a great place to work on some technique/ideas.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by DavidB
. . . The classes at Hipsters aren't advanced. They are just slightly harder than the average Ceroc intermediate class, with the occasional exercises or tips thrown in. (I suppose that does make them advanced in comparison to most other classes?) They don't have any option - they have to make money on the classes, so have to pitch them at a level where the majority of people can manage to do the class. They also have to teach people what they want to learn - not what they actually need to learn to become better dancers. . . .
This is true of practically all Advanced classes/workshops I have encountered over the 12 years or so that I have been dancing MJ.

Again, it all goes back to what you define as an "Advanced" class. In most cases, it is merely a class where the moves taught are more complicated/complex than those likely to be taught in an "Intermediate" class. Nothing wrong with that - in fact, it is a fairly accurate description.

DavidB & I have taught "Advanced" classes (eg. at Rock Bottoms) where all we taught was a series of moves which, in our view, might have been difficult for intermediate/inexperienced dancers to follow, hence the "Advanced" label. This, of course, is even more applicable in the field of Aerials (which we also teach) where firstly, we do require participants to be of the required standard in order to do the class - for safety reasons - and secondly, we teach moves which those without the relevant advanced experience in aerials would simply be unable to do.

We have also taught specialist workshops where the emphasis has been on improving one's dancing generally, eg. our Lead & Follow technique & Musical Interpretation workshops in Perth in August. We did not intend for those workshops to cater only for "Advanced" dancers and were very pleased that so many dancers of all levels attended. I note, however, DavidB's list of what he would like to see taught in Adanced classes, and the many people who agree with him. Although I agree that some of those topics are suitable only for Advanced dancers (eg. choreography, complex moves), I must say that many others (eg. lead/follow, how to spin, musical interpretation, competition technique etc.) are equally suitable for Intermediate dancers who wish to improve their dancing. If someone has been dancing for long enough to be able to freestyle with confidence and to enter an Intermediate competition but does not consider themselves to be an Advanced dancer, he/she would still benefit hugely from attending workshops on general dancing skills. I make a point of saying this as I think we should not give the impression that good dancing skills is the preserve of "Advanced" dancers and should therefore only be taught in "Advanced" classes.

Videoing is not, IMHO, an appropriate teaching method for classes as it takes up far too much time. It is, however, an invaluable tool for practising, private lessons and possibly some workshops.

What I think would be useful to Advanced dancers are classes in styling - how to use your body when dancing, footwork technique, use of syncopations/advanced musical interpretation, competition/performance technique. . . I could go on but I don't want to bore people with what appeals to me personally. I would also like to see the present format of teaching complex moves retained - it keeps teachers on their toes and encourages creativity. A mix of teaching moves and dancing skills would be ideal, IMHO.

But, as David has pointed out, in the long run, it will have to depend on the punters - you have to give people what they want or they will take their business (and money) elsewhere!

LilyB

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gary
Fixed partners is important both because if I overestimate my ability I only disadvantage my partner, and also because some of the advanced stuff is about couple chemistry/mirroring, so I need to do that with my partner. For anything performance or competition based, then fixed couples would be important. For aerials they should be essential.
But for just about anything else, such as leading/following, musical interpretation, individual skills, improvisation, choreography-on-the-fly etc then fixed partners would be counter productive.

Advanced dancing should not just be about making it look good with one partner, but making it feel good to every partner.

Having said that, I understand the original point made by TheTramp. One or two people in a small class who are out of their depth can make it very difficult for everyone else. People have already commented on this in normal intermediate classes. An alternative to fixed partners would be getting the teachers to join in the rotation. They could then help with any problems directly - whether they are minor or major. It should also be made obvious to any newcomers to the class that they have to get up to speed, and not expect the class to be slowed down.

I don't know how much it attracts intermediate dancers to have better dancers at a venue.It seems to work at Hipsters - even though there are no advanced classes.

Almost all of my dancing is plain social fun dancing, and I forget to concentrate.One of the best dancers I've ever met (Mario Robau) said that the only difference between a good dancer and a great dancer was concentration. When he then told me what he concentrates on throughout a dance I realised what he meant. I can't even remember it all whan I'm sitting down - never mind dancing!

David

[Gary]

Originally posted by DavidB

One of the best dancers I've ever met (Mario Robau) said that the only difference between a good dancer and a great dancer was concentration. When he then told me what he concentrates on throughout a dance I realised what he meant. I can't even remember it all whan I'm sitting down - never mind dancing!


Um, can you remember some of what he concentrates on?

[bigdjiver]

If MJ were an Olympic sport we would have no problems defining "advanced". For me, at the highest levels, it is about originality and individuality. There are so many dancers that I admire, but each has their own gift, their own style. Those dancers include those that can do Ceroc as it is taught at the highest level.

For me an advanced class would be how to dance like one of those I admire, and I would attend with the intent of just taking away a small piece of that to use to build my own, unique, style.

We need a common language, but we also need poets.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
If MJ were an Olympic sport we would have no problems defining "advanced". For me, at the highest levels, it is about originality and individuality. There are so many dancers that I admire, but each has their own gift, their own style. Those dancers include those that can do Ceroc as it is taught at the highest level.

For me an advanced class would be how to dance like one of those I admire, and I would attend with the intent of just taking away a small piece of that to use to build my own, unique, style.

We need a common language, but we also need poets. The preference of style over substance. Some people (men and ladies) would be quite happy breaking their partners limbs as long as they think they look good.

Maybe the Advanced Ceroc classes will just become style-cloning exercises. It would be a lot easier for the teachers - they wouldn't have to learn anything new. The classes could be in exactly the same format as present. The people in the class wouldn't have to worry if they are doing anything wrong - the look is all that is important.

However much I might dislike this idea, the classes would be far more popular than some of the other alternatives discussed.

To extend your metaphor - we do need poets, but it helps if they can rhyme...

[DavidB]

Just re-read my post, and it sounded a bit like a personal attack on bigdjiver. It wasn't meant to be. :sorry :sorry

The original question was what would people like to see in an Advanced lesson, and everyone is entitled to their view.

David

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by DavidB
at Hipsters - even though there are no advanced classes.

Do you not think that Amir's classes at Hipsters are advanced?

I mean, I don't really care whether they're called Advanced or Intermediate, but I do know that I find them far, far, harder than Nigel's or Viktor's, and I need a completely different mindset to cope with Amir's ones - though I love those classes and would hate him to reduce the difficulty level.

Mindset, as in, I'm frustrated if I can't get all of Nigel's or Viktor's content (which is not to say I can dance well everything N & V teach; of course I can't) But conversely, I feel a sense of real achievement if I get any of Amir's, and I usually end up feeling pretty shredded. And equally I felt a sense of achievement with the one aerial I tackled with some success in your class on the IOW recently.

Still, 2% per week of Amir's lessons adds up to a reasonable improvement over a year or so, so I'm still happy.

Chris

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by DavidB
Just re-read my post, and it sounded a bit like a personal attack on bigdjiver. It wasn't meant to be. :sorry :sorry

The original question was what would people like to see in an Advanced lesson, and everyone is entitled to their view.

David

Any comments linking me with style are strenuously denied.

I hope nobody dances dangerously.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidB
The quickest way would be to get some of the existing non-CTA teachers to do the classes. But this would have its own set of problems. Even those teachers who have been doing advanced classes for years would disagree on even basic ideas.

I just don't think the dance or the teachers have developed enough yet for Ceroc to teach a common style of 'advanced' dancing.
I admit that it does worry me slightly; of all the "Advanced dancers/teachers" named, each have their own style and direction that they take MJ. If Ceroc decide that this {ie the way they teach it} is "advanced", then by definition, they don't see anyone else's style as being "advanced".

Perhaps it's a different question: what, appart from style, makes the dancer "advanced" as opposed to "intermediate"? And arials don't count.
- I really don't see any difference in the complexity of moves. Musicality is so closeley tied with style that everyone's is different and a unified "Ceroc" style would make for very bland dancing. The skills of lead/follow are the only area that I can see improving from "intermediate" to "advanced" and these can {should} be able to be taught by any CTA {/MJ} teacher.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gadget
The skills of lead/follow are the only area that I can see improving from "intermediate" to "advanced" and these can {should} be able to be taught by any CTA {/MJ} teacher.
Not having a dig at Ceroc, but is lead/follow taught by Ceroc at all??

Chris

[Gadget]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Not having a dig at Ceroc, but is lead/follow taught by Ceroc at all
Nope. :devil: The principles are taught, and the movements, {...not in the terms of 'lead/follow exactly...} but I think that I only really began understanding and dynamics of leading/following from outwith the Ceroc umbrela.
{personal opinion of course :innocent:}

BTW I posted the prior post before reading the "Advanced classes" thread. But the question presented was still not answered properly in it...
what, appart from style, makes the dancer "advanced" as opposed to "intermediate"?

From that thread, it seems that style is what people use to determine the "Advanced" from the "Intermediate." If true, then how can a uniform Ceroc "advanced" style be advantageous? I would think that multiple independant styles would be the way forward.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Gadget
what, appart from style, makes the dancer "advanced" as opposed to "intermediate"?
Is it a useful distinction? Personally I think it maybe isn't, unless it's within a grading system (which I'm not advocating for the UK).

I think it could be helpful to define advanced moves, techniques and styling. I think it could be helpful to define advanced classes as classes that teach those. I think it could be helpful to define the moves, techniques and styling that somebody going to an specific advanced class should be familiar with.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Chris
Is it a useful distinction?
well, yes: simply because from what's been said, I don't see the difference in the subject being taught between "intermediate" and "advanced".
I do however think that there is a difference in the level of the pupils.

An "Advanced" pupil will know the basics and want to activly investigate nuances and subtalties that are involved. They will ask and absorb the knowledge. I also think that "Advanced" lessons/workshops would have to be done with fixed partners (or buddies; I like that idea) and have honest feedback from all parties.
On the other side, an "Intermediate" pupil will know the basic blocks and be looking for "bolt-on's" or "Quick-fix's" that can be applied to their dancing. Partner is fairly irrelevant because what is being taught is for self improvement. The teacher in this case is the one who takes the pupil through specific areas.
{Anyone see the differentiation I am trying to make? :confused:}

I think it could be helpful to define the moves, techniques and styling that somebody going to an specific advanced class should be familiar with.
I think that this would be a great idea for all workshops/classes above "beginner" level.

[Chris]

Not sure if I differ from Gadget on substance or just wording.

At the moment, calling a dancer 'advanced', unless by common accord, is something that can alienate people and I'm not sure what useful purpose it serves.

My own definition of intermediate is someone (in Ceroc)
who knows:
a) moves: the basic 16 moves
b) techniques: basic knowledge of lead and follow, semi-circles, turn and return
c) style: pretty basic - like not stepping on your partner (g)

but I think the usefulness of that is showing who should be in the intermediate class - the important thing is what has been absorbed rather than the label as these are requirements that the teacher generally expects at intermediate level in order to teach the class.

For an advanced class, the requirements as to what individual dancers need to know may vary considerably according to the advanced class/teacher, and the definition 'intermediate' or 'advanced' may be too broad a brush in many cases (IMO).

I would say you might reasonably need (categories as above)
a) a specific knowledge of key intermediate moves and a broad knowledge from the range of intermediate moves. Some moves are combination moves and it slows things down to have to explain the basic components
b) correct knowledge of dips, drops, seducers (and possibly laybacks); a good sense of lead and follow; ladies - reasonable ability in spins; enough intermediate dance class experience to pick up ideas that bit quicker than they are taught at intermediate level
c) good posture, dances on the balls of the feet, does not feel embarrassed about using the spare arm, does not feel embarrassed about close moves and can maintain proper decorum when doing them.

This is all a bit subjective in terms of what is included admittedly, but the principle of building one level on the previous level is a workable one - just calling something advanced cos it is more difficult gives people less of a guide.

There is a big range of levels among dancers that most of us would call 'advanced'. These dancers deserve some indication of whether the class is applicable to them, and whether it is aimed at them.

Most styling classes can equally be divided into beginners, intermediate, advanced - our tendency to call styling classes advanced - or teachers tendency to say that is what the majority of intermediate dancers need - is as much a result of style not being taught uniformly with moves as any descriptor of the style class itself. I've travelled miles for a style class only to find that the description was based more on advertising criteria than the actual content.

(Hope I've been reasonably clear - there may be lots of approaches to this but I'd rather be understood and disagreed with than not understood and agreed with . . . (g))

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Chris
I would say you might reasonably need (categories as above)
a) {Moves} a specific knowledge of key intermediate moves and a broad knowledge from the range of intermediate moves. Some moves are combination moves and it slows things down to have to explain the basic components
I would expect this of any "intermediate" dancer - although the range of intermediate moves is a bit ott since there are very few different conceptual moves from the basics; almost all are an amalgamation or bastardisation of the "basics".

b) {techniques} correct knowledge of dips, drops, seducers (and possibly laybacks); a good sense of lead and follow; ladies - reasonable ability in spins; enough intermediate dance class experience to pick up ideas that bit quicker than they are taught at intermediate level
Correct knowledge of dips/drops should only be applicable if the class includes them - these moves are close to arials in danger level and I would hope that the teacher would ensure the pupils had appropriate knowledge before dong these.
A good sense of lead/follow and spinning again should be a developing thing that an intermediate dancer should have.
Learning ability should be 50% the teacher, 50% the pupil, but from all the above, it seems that experiance rather than skill is what you are looking for in terms of technique.

c) good posture, dances on the balls of the feet, does not feel embarrassed about using the spare arm, does not feel embarrassed about close moves and can maintain proper decorum when doing them.
Yet again, it is experiance rather than anything else that you are using to classify an "advanced" dancer.

There are several experianced dancers that I would not consider "advanced", and a few that have very little experiance {relativly} that I would.

I also don't see what could be taught in an advanced class about "style" that an intermediate pupil could not learn from.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Gadget
I would expect this of any "intermediate" dancer - although the range of intermediate moves is a bit ott since there are very few different conceptual moves from the basics; almost all are an amalgamation or bastardisation of the "basics".
If you've done a lot of intermediate classes you get to learn new moves in future intermediate classes faster and more easily. The moves from Cerocshops cover one set of 'basics' but there are other specific moves that can be used to build moves on. I can think of examples from moves I use (eg Twister includes a backslide) but don't know about standard ones - maybe a double pretzel drop - if you had to teach a double pretzel from scratch it would slow the class down.

Correct knowledge of dips/drops should only be applicable if the class includes themAgreed - as for all the other examples I gave - it is the specific experience that matters as there's such a range. I can think of lots of holes in my own range. Most dancers, and many dancers who are much better than I am, can get to a pretty cool level by dancing what they know and avoiding what they don't.

I also don't see what could be taught in an advanced class about "style" that an intermediate pupil could not learn from. I can think of several different levels that are dependent on knowledge of a more basic level.
it is experiance rather than anything else that you are using to classify an "advanced" dancerPlease watch my lips! I am not classifying dancers - I am classifying their experience (there is a difference - honest!)

[spindr]

My definition of an advanced class is somewhat looser -- I just want to get one good idea to play with. I know I'm not necessarily the most accomplished of dancers, and I don't always follow complicated routines, etc. -- but if I can get one lead/follow idea, one hand-change, one new way of shifting body weight, a shape, etc., etc. then I'm happy to have paid for a class. Maybe that's why I'd put a premium on originality -- both presentation and content.

Oh, and if I can remember it the next day, then it was a *really* advanced class :)

Neil.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
what, apart from style, makes the dancer "advanced" as opposed to "intermediate"?Style is everything you put into a dance that you don't need to. This can be things you do deliberately, or subconsciously. It can be things you do right, or wrong, or just as a consequence of something else you do.

For my way of thinking, becoming an advanced dancer means you have to understand everything you need to do, deciding how to do things you want to do to develop your style, and knowing the difference between the two.

What you need to do in Modern Jive centres around leading and following. But it also incudes understanding the timing of Modern Jive, and the structure of the music. You have to understand your partner, and their part in the dance. You have to know how to spin, or what to do when your partner is spinning. You have to anticipate what other dancers might do, and how to react to them.

What you want to do is obviously down to the individual. What you actually do might be completely different. The 'buddy' couple system that Gary talked about might be very revealing for this. But there is still plenty that can be taught. For example you might suggest to intermediate dancers to wiggle your hips. But you would teach how to do Cuban motion to an advanced class. Then you would leave it down to the individual to decide if they are going to incorporate it.

Other examples would be presentation skills - very important to a competitor, irrelevant to some purely social dancers, but worth learning anyway.

So I would say the difference between an intermediate dancer and an advanced dancer is knowledge. Knowledge is different to experience, although frequently they have gone hand-in-hand. (Much of the existing knowledge has developed from the experience of some dancers.) And knowledge doesn't mean knowing a lot of moves. The best thing is that knowledge can be taught - as long as the teacher knows what they are talking about! (The problem with knowledge is the more you know, the more you have to concentrate - otherwise you end up forgetting to do everything.)


And aerials don't count.I would agree with this. Aerials aren't dancing. They are just a way of showing off. The same statement can apply to drops.


I really don't see any difference in the complexity of moves.I do see a difference - the advanced dancers tend to do less complicated moves. They get in the way of dancing.


The skills of lead/follow ... can {should} be able to be taught by any CTA {/MJ} teacher. Some MJ teachers (including some Ceroc teachers) are very good at following. I can't comment from personal experience what they are like at leading, but I've heard plenty of good comments about some teachers.
However some female MJ teachers (again including some Ceroc teachers) are exceptionally hard to lead. Again I can't say anything directly about the leaders, but I've heard enough bad comments about several male teachers.
Even amongst the good dancers, many find it difficult to explain even some of the basic ideas. They might be able to do it, but they don't actually know what they do. Fortunately the number of teachers who know what they are doing, and can teach it, is slowly increasing.

Understanding leading & following isn't difficult. Mastering it is virtually impossible, because there is always something else to learn. Luckily you don't have to master it completely to be good enough to do it well. I once saw a demo by a professional ballroom couple. They were the 3-times world champions, and were just about to retire from doing cabarets after many years. He said "I've been doing Foxtrot for over 30 years, and my teacher says I have almost figured out how to lead it..."

One other thing - remember that Advanced classes aren't aimed at Advanced dancers. They are aimed at the top-end of intermediate dancers who want to get better within the world of Modern Jive. When there are more advanced dancers around, then maybe you can try to offer something for them.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB

I would agree with this. Aerials aren't dancing. They are just a way of showing off. The same statement can apply to drops.

And spins, and hip motion, and syncopation, and musical interpretation, and complex moves.

In fact depending where we stick the flag, keeping in time is just a way of showing off. It sure was at my first beginners class.

I'm going to have to go around telling all these show-offs that they're not dancing. hehehe.

I think dancing is whatever a person is used to seeing, and advanced dancing is the best dancers that a person is used to seeing. For some people it's X and others Y.

[Chris]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I think dancing is whatever a person is used to seeing, and advanced dancing is the best dancers that a person is used to seeing. For some people it's X and others Y.

:rofl: I'd agree with that! Reminds me of my old doctor's definition of an alcoholic - "Someone who drinks more than their doctor."

When there's no rules it's all genuinely in the eyes of the beholder.
:cheers:

[Paul F]

I have just read through all the posts on this thread and only 1 thing has really stood out.

Everybody wants different things.

IF (and i hate gossip so im saying IF - dont think it should hurt anyone) ceroc were to introduce national advanced lessons then x% would think its great and y% wouldnt.

As much as it might go against what social dancing stands for im starting to wonder whether grading would HAVE to be introduced. How else could you trust the level of participants. Fixed partners i dont like - dont like it at all.

For example, Nigel (yes, nigel again) is fantastic but i wouldnt say his classes at hipsters are advanced but some people would.
He simply could not teach a lot of the more complex moves (drops, baby aerials etc) at hipsters as he cant rely on the ability of the people.

I remember nigel teaching a right handed archiespin. He taught it fantastically well but a lot of guys couldnt get it. The RHAs is an intermediate move!

Amirs style class. You get people there that basically just cant get it. what can you do? these are not particularly complex moves but are more fluid and emotive and people stuggle.

Grading - not good but its that or fixed partners.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Paul F
Amirs style class. You get people there that basically just cant get it. what can you do? these are not particularly complex moves but are more fluid and emotive and people stuggle.
Well, this is why I was interested in David’s view of Amir’s class. As I said before, I find it far harder than either Nigel's or indeed Viktor's most difficult ones.

But it's a big mistake to imagine that the difficulty in Amir's classes has got anything to do with the moves he teaches. To get the fluidity and grace you see when he demos what he teaches with Kate, demands balance, coordination, musicality and leading ability that is far beyond mine at the moment. So I come away feeling about one inch high, nerves shredded.

But nevertheless, a tiny bit better and totally inspired.

Chris

[Paul F]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Well, this is why I was interested in David’s view of Amir’s class. As I said before, I find it far harder than either Nigel's or indeed Viktor's most difficult ones.

But it's a big mistake to imagine that the difficulty in Amir's classes has got anything to do with the moves he teaches. To get the fluidity and grace you see when he demos what he teaches with Kate, demands balance, coordination, musicality and leading ability that is far beyond mine at the moment. So I come away feeling about one inch high, nerves shredded.

But nevertheless, a tiny bit better and totally inspired.

Chris

Definately agree. its not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

What i meant was if people struggle with the 'inter/adv' classes on a tue and wed and people struggle with the style classes (including me :blush: ) then it is completely impossible to expect success in any advanced lessons without such things as gradings.

I must re-iterate though i dont like the gradings idea but cant see any other way :sad:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Paul F
and people struggle with the style classes (including me :blush: )

Honey, style is one thing you're not lacking in! :grin:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Paul F
I must re-iterate though i dont like the gradings idea but cant see any other way :sad:

So ... back to reality ... how would you integrate advanced lessons into a normal club night. Although there rae many different views about what should be included ... one factor that consistently crops up is that the class will be beyond the capabiltity of most of the attending dancers .... so how do you tell them to s*dd off and stay off the floor until they are allowed back on again:confused:

As I've mentioned before ... face your usual class of 100 intermediates with an advanced class and stress that only the very experienced should attempt it ... and guess how many dancers drop out.

[spindr]

Originally posted by Gus As I've mentioned before ... face your usual class of 100 intermediates with an advanced class and stress that only the very experienced should attempt it ... and guess how many dancers drop out.

Well, it depends what else is on offer -- an (advanced) class versus no class -- you will only get one answer from dancers. If you let people choose between an advanced class and an improver/intermediate one -- and you may get more people switching. If you show people the "advanced routine" (or more likely list concepts to be discussed) versus "improver/intermediate" one -- and people will make a more informed choice (yes I have definitely seen this happen).

Call the advanced class a "style-orientated class" and maybe people who think they don't need styling tips won't feel like attending (even if they know that they are advanced :) ). Call the improvers/intermediate class a "moves-orientated class" and maybe people won't feel that they are demeaning themselves by attending.

Neil.

[DavidB]

A ferw years ago we organised some workshops by a top US West Coast Swing teacher. At the time there were probably only about 20 people who did WCS more than twice a year in the UK.

The beginners classes had about 30. The intermediate had about 40, and the advanced over 70.

They weren't advanced classes by any definition - we just knew that if people could only do one workshop, they would pick the one called 'advanced'.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB

So I would say the difference between an intermediate dancer and an advanced dancer is knowledge.

I'm not so sure about that. I got a book on ballroom dancing and read it. Then I put the book down. Then I looked again at the book and decided that I hadn't improved my dancing at all.

Then I picked it up and looked at the pictures. Copied a few poses. I think that might have improved my ability a little bit. If I had an actual moving video I could have done more. My body reflexes and habits could be improved, but I don't know how much knowledge I would accumulate.

Advanced ability = knowledge, sounds perilously close to learning via scripts. I think genuine improvement has to come mostly from mimicry of observed subtleties + occasional chance discoveries.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by DavidY
I'd love to have an expert tell me what I'm doing wrong.

How about a workshop which starts by videoing your dancing and then telling you what you're doing wrong? Have been to training like this before in a non-dance environment - it's very uncomfortable but can also be very effective.

I'm really late to pick up on this! But me too - I've love to be told (nicely!) what I'm not doing right, or what I could particularly improve on.

But I guess that's why you'd have private lessons, if you could afford it.

Hey David - in the absense of any such workshops as yet, how about you and me have our own little buddy system where we can dance and then give each other constructive criticism. What do you think?
Rachel

[Gadget]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Advanced ability = knowledge, sounds perilously close to learning via scripts. I think genuine improvement has to come mostly from mimicry of observed subtleties + occasional chance discoveries.
While I understand that mimicry is necissary to "get" various moves and 'flair', I think that learning {completley} by mimicry is worse than learning by scripts: This just results in a carbon copy of the mimic-ed artist.
At least by learning through 'knowledge' sources you have a chance to put your own interpritation on the information and can argue there is no correct way to do something. (ie you have no definitive source to compare against.)

Gus asked how to incorporate "Advanced" lessons into a normal class:
Would it not be possable to scatter the advanced knowledge allong side the intermediate areas in the form of {eg}"As an alternative to just stepping here, try and hit the beat with your foot and follow the body through..." etceteras.
The tricky bit would be knowing where the balance lay between alienating the majority of 'intermediate' dancers and educating the rest of the 'advanced' dancers.

[Paul F]

As for how and when to incorporate advanced classes I would have to say that they need to be seperate from the 'normal' classes. The obvious and possibly the hardest way of doing this would be to have seperate 'advanced' lessons possibly on different days.

This is, of course, very hard as the venue may not be available etc. but at least this draws the first dividing line giving those thinking about moving up a moment of pause.

Looking back at one of James' posts I think he mentioned something really interesting bout NZ i think. He mentioned that because there is grading (or u ask the teacher) people make sure they are good enough to go up to advanced level. They need that milestone to consider otherwise they will just turn up 'as usual'.

To run a seperate night for adv classes may get them to think again.

As an example I have to think back to the advanced classes Mick Wenger taught in Finchley on a monday night. The monday night had changed from a normal night to an advanced night.
As a result the SAME people turned up regardless. Adam made it clear in on the web and Mick made it clear in the class that it was that much harder. Unfortunately everyone turned up anyway. I can realistically say that ~70% of the class simply couldnt get it.
Mick is obviously one of the best teachers so it certainly wasn't him.
I know the advanced nights have stopped now. I can only imagine it is for this reason. I know quite a few experienced dancers who went down and said the same. Coupling this with the fact that there were some very annoying people there (hecklers :mad: ) it must have suffered.

A seperate night for an advanced class. Is that the only way?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Paul F
A seperate night for an advanced class. Is that the only way? Possibly. Although, I'll be interested to hear how the new class (in the other room) at Fulham is going. Can't remember whether the advanced class was going to run at the same time as the intermediate. Or the beginners. Or just after both when the freestyle was on. Or what :D

But having all 3 on the same night might solve some of the possible problems.... I think it's a nice concept however.... :D

Steve

[RobC]

Originally posted by spindr
Well, it depends what else is on offer -- an (advanced) class versus no class -- you will only get one answer from dancers. If you let people choose between an advanced class and an improver/intermediate one -- and you may get more people switching. If you show people the "advanced routine" (or more likely list concepts to be discussed) versus "improver/intermediate" one -- and people will make a more informed choice (yes I have definitely seen this happen).

Since we started an improvers class in Fleet (really a low intermediate level - but what's in a name) running at the same time as the usual intermediate (really a challenging intermediate/advanced level), we have seen a lot of people choosing to do the improvers class over the intermediate class, especially on the monthy N&N advanced class nights - It has got to the point now that on some nights I even have more people in my improvers class than in the main venue doing the intermediate class.

It has definitely been my experience that if you give people the choice, they will choose the class that they feel most comfortable with, which means that you can push the higher class harder safe in the knowledge that if people are struggling to keep up, they can drop down to the lower class and still enjoy the evening. Don't give them the choice and of course they will still try and join in with the harder class - who can blame them - they have paid their money to get in for the evening and want to learn something, not sit around for 40 mins waiting for freestyle to start !

If the arrangement that Simon and Mike are coming to (and as far as I'm aware, the contract is yet to be signed) is an indication of the way Mike is planning to take Ceroc, we have some very interesting times ahead. Simon is still going to be teaching Lindy - as part of a Ceroc evening - and has infact announced tonight that as of January, will be starting a second lindy class on thursdays in Fleet. We will still be continuing the Jive Bug Fleet arrangement of once a month replacing the usual intermediate class with an advanced class - for the next 2 months, we have Mick stepping up to fill N&N's shoes.

So, as they say, watch this space.

Rob

[David Franklin]

One of the big things in Australia seems to be teaching team routines over several weeks. There are different levels of routine, with the advanced ones having lots of fast complicated moves and often big aerials.

It occurs to me this has a lot of advantages:

(1) Sidesteps the "elitism" thing, at least to some extent - it's very much parallel to the normal classes rather than "above them".

(2) The participants are making a real commitment (including paying for the whole course up front, if I understand correctly). You're also probably letting other people down if you drop out. This helps with motivation when you're at the "I'm just can't do this" stage...

(3) One thing I find a lot with new (and therefore initially difficult) moves is that they tend not to get practiced. When you're in freestyle, and the music is twice as fast as when you learnt the move, and you need to worry about floorcraft etc., putting in a move you're unsure of is really hard. Much easier to practice it when you know the music, know where the move is supposed to fit in the music etc...

(4) Hopefully you learn about performance, things like facing the audience, carriage, smiling etc...

(5) You have an end goal and get a chance to show it all off!

The disadvantages I see:

(1) Doesn't cover a lot of areas people want to learn. (e.g. lead/follow, on the fly interpretation ...)

(2) Really hard to make work without fixed partners. Otherwise everyone gets affected when someone isn't up to scratch or just can't make a class.

(3) Need someone to choreograph the routines. I think it would take a while to "ramp up" to the number of routines taught in Australia. (but Ceroc UK could "buy" the Oz routines...)

(4) Judging by reactions on this forum, 12 teams cabarets at Ceroc championships would not go down very well...

Dave

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by David Franklin
One of the big things in Australia seems to be teaching team routines over several weeks. There are different levels of routine, with the advanced ones having lots of fast complicated moves and often big aerials.Dave

Is it me or is CerocMetro invisible?? :waycool:

We have been teaching choreographed routines for 4 years now. We have different levels, from beginners to advanced routines. We have only ever done one advanced one and we won the Ceroc Champs with it in 2001.

The routines have been a fantastic way for individuals to look great. Not become great dancers, but look like great dancers. The first thing we do is stress that they need to lose their style. For a routine to work in a group, everyone has to look the same. Interestingly enough, when we decided to enter the Champs we auditioned. We found that all the so called top dancers were no good becuase their styles were too strong and they were not prepared to put in the work and be told how to dance.

Individuals look great because they are doing music interpretation to the extreme but not having to understand it. We have a regular crowd who do every routine we produce, they have all become much better dancers and have learnt some wonderful and some very scary moves. In reality these have been advanced classes.

We taught a beginners one in Perth over the summer. It went down well I believe. The main feedback was how good it felt dancing to a whole track feeling right all the way through and what fun it was.

Gordon taught one of our routines at Camber recently. From what I understand the reception was amazing.

Apart from the advanced routines, partners can swap, where there are big moves or lifts, we try to make alternatives that fit in.


You might not become a great dancer overnight, but this is a way to get an idea of what it feels like to be one. :grin:

To get details of our next routine, send an email to ceroc@hotmail.com

Adam

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Is it me or is CerocMetro invisible?? :waycool:

We have been teaching choreographed routines for 4 years now. We have different levels, from beginners to advanced routines. We have only ever done one advanced one and we won the Ceroc Champs with it in 2001.Sorry Adam :blush: On t'other hand, had a quick look at your website, and I can't say I could see anything about this there.


Individuals look great because they are doing music interpretation to the extreme but not having to understand it. We have a regular crowd who do every routine we produce, they have all become much better dancers and have learnt some wonderful and some very scary moves. In reality these have been advanced classes.So did this work better than your "official" advanced classes? I would think you'd get a better selection of dancers without having to bruise egos too badly.

Dave

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Sorry Adam :blush: On t'other hand, had a quick look at your website, and I can't say I could see anything about this there.

If I didn't spend all my b***y spare time on here, the web site would be up to date. Best thing is to be on our mailing list.



Originally posted by David Franklin
So did this work better than your "official" advanced classes? I would think you'd get a better selection of dancers without having to bruise egos too badly.

Dave

Hard to tell, it was over a much longer period.

Adam

[Gordon J Pownall]

Yep - gotta agree with the boss...

Sally and I taught a choreographed routine in the swing room in Camber in November.

It was bloody heaving in there (forget the 250 dancer limit). We did get a great reception but for us, seeing that many people dancing a choreographed routine was amazing.

It didn't necessarily make better dancers of everyone - but all those who took part may have learnt a new move or two. I think everyone really enjoyed the experience and arguably got some experience of how easy it actually is to listen to the lyrics and feel of the music as opposed to just dancing to the beat. Most of the dancers there were far better than us anyway!!!

The routine we taught was choreographed to Mambo Italiano and was an entry level routine. More difficult routines might get a similar reception but Sally and I decided that fun was far more important than technical challenge.

We did have to cut quite a lot out of the teaching of style and flair aspects of dancing routines. Important in showcasing but not when you only have an hour and a half time limit!!!

Hope everyone enjoed it and with luck (and bribery) Sal and I will be at Bognor with another entry level routine in January 2004.

If anyone is interested, email ceroc@hotmail.com for further information about the 2004 routine(s) (as well as Mambo Italiano and others if you wish)..

Regards....Gordon and Sal...xxx

Thanks for the warm welcome and amazing feedback to all those in our class by the way - amazing!!!

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Gadget
I think that learning {completley} by mimicry is worse than learning by scripts: This just results in a carbon copy of the mimic-ed artist.

errr... thats the only way I know how to learn. Ask Lily, I don't listen to anything she says, but if I can watch someone I can usually copy it. Adam (cerocmetro), Viktor, Amir and Marilene are even more that way. I've watched all 4 of them copy things from people without actually realising thats what they were doing.

I've seen in life and on video over 100 dancers that I've liked. So who am I a carbon copy of.

And why is that worse than learning by scripts (equivalent to learning a physical sport from a book)?

[Jon]

Originally posted by Gadget
Gus asked how to incorporate "Advanced" lessons into a normal class:
Would it not be possable to scatter the advanced knowledge allong side the intermediate areas in the form of {eg}"As an alternative to just stepping here, try and hit the beat with your foot and follow the body through..." etceteras.
The tricky bit would be knowing where the balance lay between alienating the majority of 'intermediate' dancers and educating the rest of the 'advanced' dancers.

Trouble is everyone is at a different standard in the intermediate classes. To do advanced moves or styling may put off some people who find it too hard. For instance I was at a venue last night and too me the moves were old classic ceroc moves which were easy but nearly every lady I got in the class asked if I was ok with these moves as most of the men were not. Needless to say the lady que got short very quickly as they dropped out.

At charlton they once did 3 intermediate moves and showed how to link them then said the 4th move would be advanced and anyone not comfortable could sit it out. This format was mentioned before the class started so everyone knew what to expect and I thought it worked well and catered for everyone. If your lucky to have another hall then even better but prehaps then your'll end up with less people in the intermediate class because they think they are ready for advanced or that is the way to progress quickly.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I've seen in life and on video over 100 dancers that I've liked. So who am I a carbon copy of.
I was taking it to the extreeme and imagining copying from only one source.
It actually reminds me of a Startreck TNG epesode {:blush:} that Data was playing the violin and complaining that he would never be 'great' because all the bits were copies of great artists. Piccard pointed out that the selection and way they were put together was unique and just as individual as the artists themselves.
I conceed the point; mimicry is jsut as valid as "book" learning.

The main problem I find with any form of {physical} learning is trying to get your body to move and form the shapes you have in your mind. With no pictures or external reference to compare with, I would say that it's almost impossable to do. Although; in all martial arts films, there is always a reference to a written tome of knowledge to take 'advanced' pupils beyond the normal boundaries of skill; Is there a parallel?

[Rachel]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
... I've watched all 4 of them copy things from people without actually realising thats what they were doing. I was reminded earlier (posting about Sarah @ Hipsters) about a conversation overheard between Marc and Punkfish. (I keep calling him Punkfish, as I don't know if he's Anthony or Antony).

Anyway, Punkfish was saying something about looking forward to watching Marc's dancing and picking up some moves. And Marc said, well, you'll recognise most of them, cos I stole them from you!

Nothing wrong with copying, I say!
R.

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Rachel
I was reminded earlier (posting about Sarah @ Hipsters) about a conversation overheard between Marc and Punkfish. (I keep calling him Punkfish, as I don't know if he's Anthony or Antony).

Anyway, Punkfish was saying something about looking forward to watching Marc's dancing and picking up some moves. And Marc said, well, you'll recognise most of them, cos I stole them from you!

Nothing wrong with copying, I say!
R.

Agreed Rachel. mind you it would be interesting if male dancers filled out moves that they had learnt and who from. There would
be a huge list with, Cliff, Viktor, Nigel, Jacqui, Ceroc Australia, Billco, Mr. Lizard and others in my repertoire:D

[Will]

Originally posted by Jon L
Agreed Rachel. mind you it would be interesting if male dancers filled out moves that they had learnt and who from. There would
be a huge list with, Cliff, Viktor, Nigel, Jacqui, Ceroc Australia, Billco, Mr. Lizard and others in my repertoire:D Looking forward to seeing what moves you picked up off of Jacqui :wink:

[Gus]

SO .... BACK TO THREAD:grin:

Are any Ceroc clubs, under the new regime, officialy teaching Advanced classes? If so, any info on the format, content, how they are going down?

One distant memory just came to mind. The reason I got back into Ceroc was because of a great teacher at Nottingham, 'Boy' Robin. I wish I could remember what it was about his lesson that were so addictive. The only down side was that every lesson felt like it was advanced. It must haqe been at least 3 months before I actualy managed to get a whole routine .... probably more of a reflection of my inadaquacies than Robin's teaching.

Unfortunately Ceroc lost him to the dark side ... he's now a Lindy Hopper:tears: :tears:

[Gordon J Pownall]

It brings back the whole argument of course,

What is advanced???

A matter of perspective as what may be advanced to one intermediate dancer may not be to another.

Advanced could mean difficult links between moves, complicated footwork, technically challenging or just a really long move with 20+ beats.

I suppose it's down to the teacher's decision and his or her knowledge of the classes' abilities.

There is a risk of elitism within the ranks. Far better is the Masterclass series that is taught at Cheshunt on Mondays by Ceroc Metro teacher Gordon - oh...that's me...

We take a theme that could be pretty much anything - Latin Jive, Double handed moves, The First Move etc etc, and build an intermediate class around the theme.

Far more response in attendance than advertising an advanced class and the feedback from dancers is that they find it useful in musical interpretation with the varied styles and genres of music played at most nights.

www.CerocMetro.com has taught advanced classes and Mick Wenger, renowned for his dancing, does occasionally teach advanced classes at his venues.

Have a look at the website for more info or give Adam a call....

:hug:

[Will]

Originally posted by Gus
SO .... BACK TO THREAD:grin:

Are any Ceroc clubs, under the new regime, officialy teaching Advanced classes? If so, any info on the format, content, how they are going down?
They are now running advanced classes in Fulham on a Thursday, but I haven't attended any of the classes yet so I can't comment on how well they are going.