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stewart38
3rd-December-2003, 03:27 PM
Seems to me hand signals are less important 'nowadays' in ceroc then they were a few years ago and/or are taught with less enthusiasm or consistency

Is this a good thing or even correct assumption?

TheTramp
3rd-December-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
Seems to me hand signals are less important 'nowadays' in ceroc then they were a few years ago and/or are taught with less enthusiasm or consistency

Is this a good thing or even correct assumption? There are a few hand signals that are taught because it's necessary for the hand to be in that position to implement the move (pretzel, secret move, neck break etc.).

There is one beginner move taught where the hand signal really isn't necessary, but makes it easier to teach - "take your right hand over your left hand" (man spin).

There are other moves taught which include a hand signal as an integral part of the move - eg. a flat hand to show the ladies that they are about to spin (although, this isn't always the case when you (I) am actually dancing in freestyle (any of the beginner push spin moves).

Apart from that there are signals to show 'special' moves. Such as the hip hop, first move jump etc. I really hate this idea, and when I'm teaching, try to get people not to use them. For a number of reasons - The person might not understand the hand signal, The hand signal might well mean different things in different parts of the country (this has happened to me - I had done something with my hand that my partner thought was a signal, I hadn't meant it to be a signal at all, she ended up jumping with both legs onto my outstretched knee (I did a lean, she thought it was a hip hop). It hurt :tears: The person might not even see the hand signal.

For any move like that, you should only be doing them with someone that you know, knows what you're doing (and knows what they are supposed to do). And there's no better way to signal it, than bringing your partner in close, and yelling 'Hip hop' at them. It's difficult to miss that :D

Steve

Gadget
3rd-December-2003, 06:23 PM
If you mean "Hand signals" as 'flapping your hand(s) in a semaphore like manor to convey the next move to your partner' then no. I see no part for them in MJ.
I especially dislike the "neck-break" signal; there are so many other 'smooth' ways to lead a lady into that position - why uglifie it?

If you mean "Hand signals" as 'changing the grip, pressure or position of the hand(s) on the lady' then yes. This is all part of 'leading' and can't really be substituted.

JamesGeary
3rd-December-2003, 09:58 PM
Please remove all hand signals!! If someone is holding out their hand then grab it, but set signals for set moves **uggggh**!!

I am just put out because here back in NZ some damn fool has been inventing more signals for moves. You twitch wrong and some fool woman will try to leap up onto your shoulder. Not amusing, at least not by the third time.

Quite amusing by the fouth time though. As I worked out that if I then freeze like a deer in a spotlight she'll slide down the other side of your body into a heap on the ground.


:devil:

Jon L
4th-December-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
If you mean "Hand signals" as 'flapping your hand(s) in a semaphore like manor to convey the next move to your partner' then no. I see no part for them in MJ.
I especially dislike the "neck-break" signal; there are so many other 'smooth' ways to lead a lady into that position - why uglifie it?

If you mean "Hand signals" as 'changing the grip, pressure or position of the hand(s) on the lady' then yes. This is all part of 'leading' and can't really be substituted.

I think for beginners signals are necessary and they are there for a good reason. The woman has to know how to interpret the signal, i.e. what is going to happen. Beginner ladies must also learn to watch out for hands offered in different places. (behave - keep it clean !!!!)

However, as with the thread I posted on drawing the semi circle, I guess as you progress, dancers who can follow and not be tempted to do their own thing :what: they become less important.

Because I was taught the "ceroc" CTA way - the signals for the manspin, neckbreak, open neckbreak are all still there. (they have just become habit).
:grin:

Emma
4th-December-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
Quite amusing by the fouth time though. As I worked out that if I then freeze like a deer in a spotlight she'll slide down the other side of your body into a heap on the ground. :rofl: :rofl:

DavidB
4th-December-2003, 03:55 AM
You can argue that virtually any lead is a signal - as it requires some knowledge on the part of the lady to know what to do. But if you can do the basics of lead and follow, then signals have a different definition - ie some hand movement that is completely unconnected with the subsequent reaction.

By this definition I don't consider the man offering his spare hand to take the lady's hand to be a signal - there is a direct connection between the hand movement and the effect on the lady. Similarly body shaping or flashlighting aren't signals, as they should again be a connection between the movement and the effect on the lady.

Signals are only needed for moves that can't otherwise be led. Other than lifts and drops, I can't think of many partnered moves that needs a signal. I definitely can't think of any moves that need a signal that I would actually want to do.

Eg in a Pretzel, it is not the right hand behind the back that makes the lady turn under the left arm - it should be the arm lead and body positioning and shaping that makes the lady do this. The right hand is just being offered to take the lady's spare hand.

People do signals because they can't be bothered to teach or learn how to lead and follow properly. There isn't anything actually wrong with this - not everyone wants to do everything properly if there is a short cut they can take. If you always go to the same venues and dance with the same people, it doesn't matter if you lead a first move by picking your nose! But if you tell someone that they did a move wrong because they didn't do the right signal - don't expect people to think you know what you are talking about.

Lifts and drops I can't really talk about, because I don't ever do them in freestyle. The closest I get is a catch...

Lory
4th-December-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
And there's no better way to signal it, than bringing your partner in close, and yelling 'Hip hop' at them. It's difficult to miss that :D I learnt a move where I have to momentarily sit on the mans knee... I said to one guy 'and how am I supposed to know that I'm meant to do that in freestyle?' he said, 'how about I just shout SIT' , It works! :rofl:

Dreadful Scathe
4th-December-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Lory
, 'how about I just shout SIT'

If there was ever a command that would merit a slap during freestyle - that may well be it :).

Ive found as Ive got better (!) i rely more on trying to maintan a consistent lead than any particular signals i may have learnt - but i still notice that some partners assume too much and turn into moves they obviously know but i dont , so Im very careful where i put my hands in case its misinterpreted :).

Now theres a double meaning for you :D.

ChrisA
4th-December-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Jon L
dancers who can follow and not be tempted to do their own thing

Oh, if only I was better at giving the ladies that can follow, space to do their own thing. :tears:

Hopefully I'm gradually becoming a better follower. :blush:

Chris

Chris
4th-December-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Oh, if only I was better at giving the ladies that can follow, space to do their own thing. :tears:


Me too - I'm comfy enough with ladies I've danced with and know their dance style reasonably well, or in Blues, but would like to improve my take-up speed when dancing with new partners!!

I always feel very humble getting a lady who knows how to do her own thing up to dance but knowing it may take me a little while to figure out how to give her that space in the way she wants . . .

I don't mean ladies who know how to introduce it into the dance themselves ('sabotage' as the delightful Nelson Rose calls it), but ladies who will do fantastically stylish and beautiful things but only if the man introduces the option (sensitive souls they are! ladies I can take it! ;) )

Any girls or guys think of any 'hot tips' they want to share with me?

Chris
4th-December-2003, 04:57 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lory
, 'how about I just shout SIT'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
If there was ever a command that would merit a slap during freestyle - that may well be it :)

Reminds me of a friend from years ago - my doctor before he killed himself with alcohol and tobacco - he would prop up the bar with me late at night and then said he had to go home as his dog would be expecting him.

. . . it was a couple of years before I discovered he didn't have a dog! :devil: :rofl: :devil:

Dan
4th-December-2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Oh, if only I was better at giving the ladies that can follow, space to do their own thing. :tears:


Chris

True!

I had a dance with the very graceful Jules yesterday and I spent most of the dance wondering whether I was giving her enough space to do her thing. Doh! I mean doe.

ChrisA
4th-December-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Andr
I had a dance with the very graceful Jules yesterday and I spent most of the dance wondering whether I was giving her enough space to do her thing. Doh!
Quite an experience isn't it...

Keep doing it, it gets less scary over time, and eventually it's possible to dance as well as watch :D :D

:cheers:

Chris
4th-December-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Andr
I had a dance with the very graceful Jules yesterday and I spent most of the dance wondering whether I was giving her enough space to do her thing. Doh! I mean doe.

What a lovely dancer and wonderful interpreter! (Plus she made me very welcome in an unpretentious way the first time I went to Hipsters - ta!)

Emma
4th-December-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Lory
he said, 'how about I just shout SIT' , It works! :rofl: Ugh, I hate it when someone shouts 'sit'. I am always tempted to reply 'woof'. The fact is...if a man is a good enough lead it's quite possible to get me to sit without the Barbara Woodhouse impression.

Having said this, I really appreciate a multi-channel signal every now and again. I have a good friend who says to me...'How about a columbian? Left foot, darling' ...whilst also pulling my left hip to remind me where left is (some of us were just built confused!) He's been dancing with me long enough to know I appreciate the occasional big hint :nice:

DavidB
4th-December-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Chris
figure out how to give her that space in the way she wants . . .
{snip}
any girls or guys think of any tips they want to share - Make it obvious that you still have a connection with the hand, but don't lead anything. A fingertip lead is good for this.

- Don't pick a boring bit of music for her - the last 8 counts of a verse or chorus are usually pretty good, and a bridge is even better.

- Watch her. If she does something, then let her. If she doesn't, then carry on dancing.

- Don't expect her to catch on straight away. Not enough men let the ladies do something, so the ladies don't expect it.

- Don't make it happen suddenly. You are inviting the lady to do something. An invitation should be along the lines of "Would you like to play to the next bit of music". It should not be "PLAY"! So slow her movement down for a couple of beats before stopping the lead.

Jon L
5th-December-2003, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Oh, if only I was better at giving the ladies that can follow, space to do their own thing. :tears:

Hopefully I'm gradually becoming a better follower. :blush:

Chris

Ahh usual knack of mine - trying to say something and using the wrong vocabulary! :sad:

What I meant by women doing their own thing is Women who don't follow, don't turn when you indicate they should etc. etc.

Does this clarify things?

ChrisA
5th-December-2003, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Jon L
What I meant by women doing their own thing is Women who don't follow, don't turn when you indicate they should etc. etc.

Still not sure what you mean. Women who haven't yet learned how to follow need clearer, more careful leads. If someone doesn't turn when you "indicate", then maybe you aren't indicating clearly enough, or early enough, for that particular individual.

If someone does more than you led, rather than less, that is anticipation - much harder to deal with than simply not doing what you think you led. IMHO, the most important and most difficult thing to do with that person, unless you are actually teaching them - with their permission - is to get them to relax. If they relax and start to trust you, in my limited experience they anticipate less.

Which group are you talking about?

Not that I would lay any claim to great leading, but when I realised I needed to improve, and started learning how, it was amazing how all the girls' dancing started improving... :really:

So now I assume it's my fault when it goes wrong, and work on what I can do to make it better. I find things go better that way.

Chris

Chris
5th-December-2003, 02:25 AM
Great tips David - much appreciated! It gives me faith in the Forum when this sort of thing is installed for posterity! (Plus I'm going to print those out and mull over them as I go to sleep:grin: )

Dan
5th-December-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Chris
Great tips David - much appreciated!

I concur.

I now have to work out where the last 8 notes counts and the bridges are!!
Who said it was easy? but it is fun learning.

Thanks David

Dan
5th-December-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
If you always go to the same venues and dance with the same people, it doesn't matter if you lead a first move by picking your nose!

:rofl: :rofl:

You could try, but you need to move your right hand pretty fast to catch her waist.
It is a good thing that you did not mention the armjive in your example. This is would have been challenging, unless you had an extra arm to do your special lead.

:rofl:

Tiggerbabe
5th-December-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
it doesn't matter if you lead a first move by picking your nose!
It would matter to me :wink: :hug:

stewart38
5th-December-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
Seems to me hand signals are less important 'nowadays' in ceroc then they were a few years ago and/or are taught with less enthusiasm or consistency

Is this a good thing or even correct assumption?

The point I was trying to make wasn't if hand signals were needed.

I was thinking of the 'stick your hand out type,neck break etc rather then suttle variations in hand pressure

More along the lines have they changed are being 'dumb down' some people don't seem to recognise the old hand signals even if they have been dancing for a while (yr plus)

ChrisA
5th-December-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
some people don't seem to recognise the old hand signals even if they have been dancing for a while (yr plus)
And a good thing too.

The ladies stand a much better chance of learning to follow without them, providing the guys learn to lead without forcing.

For instance, consider the open, and the closed neck break. I know what the hand-signals are, but I can't remember which is which, so I do neither. But I can execute either move quite acceptably, or so I believe.

Even the man-spin so-called "signal" is being taught in Ceroc classes now as not being a signal, but a way of not trapping the guy's right hand as he wraps in.

Chris

RogerR
5th-December-2003, 06:15 PM
signals are confusing as they vary over the country so one is never sure how a signal will be read. Signals are a getout for a poor lead or a move which cannot be led in freestyle. A guy with a simple repertoire but a sure lead will be well respected on the dancefloor, Better repertoire even better, dodgy lead NBG to anyone.

Dan
5th-December-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Jon L

What I meant by women doing their own thing is Women who don't follow, don't turn when you indicate they should etc. etc.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dancing ability apart, do you always expect them to??

Sometimes it is "you lead, I follow"
Sometimes it is "you tell me what to do, I tell you where to go"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

JamesGeary
6th-December-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA

Even the man-spin so-called "signal" is being taught in Ceroc classes now as not being a signal, but a way of not trapping the guy's right hand as he wraps in.


Drat. There might be a few less guys doing breakthoughs (mans spin + change sides) while holding up their right arms like they have a crick in their right shoulder. Damn, one less thing to amuse me when I go dancing.

But thats OK. They still don't realise that not clamping the thumb down on her hand, doesn't mean that you have to stick out your thumbs like you're trying to hitch a lift somewhere. It makes most uk ceroc venues look like hitchhikers conventions. So, in terms of entertainment value, that more than makes up for it.

Chris
6th-December-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
... holding up their right arms like they have a crick in their right shoulder ... stick out your thumbs like you're trying to hitch a lift somewhere. It makes most uk ceroc venues look like hitchhikers conventions. So, in terms of entertainment value, that more than makes up for it.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'm still amazed at people like Viktor who can dance this style and still make it look graceful

Dan
7th-December-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
Drat. There might be a few less guys doing breakthoughs (mans spin + change sides) while holding up their right arms like they have a crick in their right shoulder. Damn, one less thing to amuse me when I go dancing.

But thats OK....... It makes most uk ceroc venues look like hitchhikers conventions. So, in terms of entertainment value, that more than makes up for it.

Oiii.. Mr Geary! you are being elitist as usual. :mad:

Do you not say
"everyone has a special ability etc etc.... You puff your cheeks and I'll go with that"?

Well some people, particularly at beginner and intermediate level have lead signals and if it that is their way so be it!
I think that you are a bit jealous as you do not have the monopoly on entertainment value!
:devil: :devil:

cerocmetro
18th-December-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
Please remove all hand signals!! If someone is holding out their hand then grab it, but set signals for set moves **uggggh**!!

I am with you on this one James. For me if a move can't be led, don't do it. Hand signals, especially obvious ones look daft. The neck break is my pet hate. You can make it look smooth very simply or you can make it look very very strange.

James I would like to know more about this freezing and the girl slides down to the floor. What happens if you twitch at the hips?


:what::rofl:

LilyB
18th-December-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
. . James I would like to know more about this freezing and the girl slides down to the floor. What happens if you twitch at the hips?


:what::rofl: I don't want to find out :what: :sick:

Martin
19th-December-2003, 03:03 PM
Hand signals - best kept to directing aircrafts...


My first experiernce in Aussieland (having danced extensively in the UK) - I had my spare hand by my hips so the girl grabbed it and went into a dip:sorry - Luckily my back and body coped - JUST:really:

Signal all you like - BUT please just dance with me and I will lead you.

JamesGeary
19th-December-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
What happens if you twitch at the hips?

:what::rofl:

I think I did. That was that twitch that encouraged her to jump on me!

cerocmetro
19th-December-2003, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
I think I did. That was that twitch that encouraged her to jump on me!

I am so glad I am moving down under:devil:

Adam

Martin
19th-December-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
I am so glad I am moving down under:devil:

Adam

If you are moving down under BIG TIP - do not have your spare hand, at any time next to your hip - especially palm upwards :tears: :blush: :sick:

1/ your back will never be the same:what:
2/ she will end up on the floor:tears:
3/ a beautiful move will happen and you have no clue why or how:waycool:

Jon L
22nd-December-2003, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Martin
If you are moving down under BIG TIP - do not have your spare hand, at any time next to your hip - especially palm upwards :tears: :blush: :sick:

1/ your back will never be the same:what:
2/ she will end up on the floor:tears:
3/ a beautiful move will happen and you have no clue why or how:waycool:

Do you have any other secret Aussie signals ?

Jon L
22nd-December-2003, 06:38 AM
I had a private lesson yesterday with Amir - I learnt lots of stuff which will be really useful.

One of the first things he has changed with me is he told me that the signals at my level are no longer needed. Simply because I am not a beginner (which is what they are there for), my lead should be enough to tell the lady what she is supposed to be doing.

Debster
22nd-December-2003, 12:35 PM
...he told me that the signals at my level are no longer needed.

Now if Amir would kindly go and teach this down under! Please! My Ceroc-ing on a recent trip back to Aus was only marred by not knowing the hand signals. They have some great moves but I kept going blank when a hand would appear in weird positions near their shoulder or something, and I probably resembled an animal facing headlights as they then tried to grab me and haul me through something I was obviously supposed to cooperate with by reacting in a certain way.

I've never liked hand signals.

Then again, verbal signals are a bit lost on me too. As Steve can attest... 'scared rabbit look' was a fave I used on him too. I got the hang of them after a while, but I'm sure I've forgotten them all now.

stewart38
22nd-December-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Jon L
One of the first things he has changed with me is he told me that the signals at my level are no longer needed. Simply because I am not a beginner (which is what they are there for), my lead should be enough to tell the lady what she is supposed to be doing.

Hand signals just for beginners ? Does that mean we shouldn't dance with beginners if we don't use hand signals ?

Hand signals are there to show what you intend to do.

A lot of advance dancers show what they intend to do by throwing the woman around, not ideal

Hand signals are becoming a thing of the past which means many 'beginners'(less then 2yrs') now can't follow simple moves

Martin
22nd-December-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Debster
Now if Amir would kindly go and teach this down under! Please! My Ceroc-ing on a recent trip back to Aus was only marred by not knowing the hand signals. They have some great moves but I kept going blank when a hand would appear in weird positions near their shoulder or something, and I probably resembled an animal facing headlights as they then tried to grab me and haul me through something I was obviously supposed to cooperate with by reacting in a certain way.



Ahhh the shoulder thingy, a frightening one armed drop:really:

The 'scared rabbit look' normally works on this one as you roll in put both hands firmly on his shoulders and shout “What?” :sorry



Originally posted by Jon L
Do you have any other secret Aussie signals ?

Personaly I do not use any, if you want to have a scary experience come to Sydney and tap your leg, touch your chest, and of course the old favorite - put that spare hand next to your hip palm up
:rofl: :rofl:

TheTramp
22nd-December-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Debster
Then again, verbal signals are a bit lost on me too. As Steve can attest... 'scared rabbit look' was a fave I used on him too. I got the hang of them after a while, but I'm sure I've forgotten them all now. Debs. You never had any other look than 'fantastic'. Was a pleasure dancing with you. :hug:

Steve

JamesGeary
22nd-December-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
Hand signals just for beginners ? Does that mean we shouldn't dance with beginners if we don't use hand signals ?

Hand signals are there to show what you intend to do.

A lot of advance dancers show what they intend to do by throwing the woman around, not ideal

Hand signals are becoming a thing of the past which means many 'beginners'(less then 2yrs') now can't follow simple moves

No. If you lead a move then you don't need hand signals. It doesn't matter if the person has been dancing 1 day or 10 years, or is a beginner or a pro. Leading moves is ideal. You do not need to 'throw them about', you simply need to apply firm and controlled pressure in the direction you want them to move. This is the basis of leading. The more responsive and experienced they are the less pressure is usually required. Up to someone like Lily where you basically just need fingertips to control which direction you want her to move.

Beginners should never be using hand signals, it is probably a relic of CTA training. Advanced dancers however are another story. Then signals can be used for 'choreographed' moves that are impossible to lead by applied pressure, usually aerials or dips where the lady throws herself at the ground and the guy stops her. Personally I hate all of them because I get about enough that I am always being caught by local variations and new variations on signals.

ChrisA
22nd-December-2003, 04:09 PM
Sorry, this is a bit long.


Originally posted by stewart38
Hand signals just for beginners ? Does that mean we shouldn't dance with beginners if we don't use hand signals ?
It absolutely does not mean that. It is much easier to lead beginners without hand signals than with them - since no knowledge is required from the follower.

As Amir says on his "lead and follow" page at www.fusiondance.co.uk (http://www.fusiondance.co.uk/), "Every step of each move should be led, rather than initiated through a series of "signals" or cues".

In dancing with beginners all the time, teaching them both in classes and one-to-one, I don't use hand signals. Even for moves that require beginner ladies to take an offered spare hand, I prefer to guide them to where I can take their hand - so that their taking mine is little more than fingers curling round. If I offer a hand and they make an early grab for it, it can spoil the whole balance of the move.

Again: visual cues aren't necessary. All the information the leader needs to get to the follower can be transmitted by the hands and the body - and doing it by touch is far more reliable than by sight, since you can't always see the hand signals.


A lot of advance dancers show what they intend to do by throwing the woman around, not ideal
No advanced dancer will throw the lady around, nor will he apply large forces to get her to where he wants her. If the guy's lead is so unclear that the lady doesn't go where she should quite naturally, the move should be aborted, rather than the guy manhandling her late into position.

A guy should never lead a move that the lady cannot follow - because she won't enjoy it, and if she's new will assume that it's her fault for not following, when it's actually the guy's, usually, for not leading well.


Hand signals are becoming a thing of the past which means many 'beginners'(less then 2yrs') now can't follow simple moves
This again is based on a basic misapprehension. Most of the time, if a lady cannot follow it is because the guy cannot lead.

Some of the time it is because she has anticipated, and moved herself ahead of time to a place where it is impossible for the guy to execute the move he intended.

But mostly it's the guys thinking their lead is clear when it isn't, and when the girls can't follow their bad lead, they apply large forces which the girls have to resist with large forces in order to prevent injury.

So the culture of yanking proliferates.

Guys, blame yourself before you blame the lady, and learn what you need to do to guide without forcing.

Chris

Martin
22nd-December-2003, 04:19 PM
Saves me replying - Chris I am with you

Will
23rd-December-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
No. If you lead a move then you don't need hand signals. It doesn't matter if the person has been dancing 1 day or 10 years, or is a beginner or a pro.
What about the Pretzel then, smartiepants!!! :devil: :wink:

stewart38
23rd-December-2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA


This again is based on a basic misapprehension. Most of the time, if a lady cannot follow it is because the guy cannot lead.

Some of the time it is because she has anticipated, and moved herself ahead of time to a place where it is impossible for the guy to execute the move he intended.

But mostly it's the guys thinking their lead is clear when it isn't, and when the girls can't follow their bad lead, they apply large forces which the girls have to resist with large forces in order to prevent injury.

So the culture of yanking proliferates.


Chris

Of course if the guy had some clear hand signals this wouldn't happen :wink:

cerocmetro
23rd-December-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Will
What about the Pretzel then, smartiepants!!! :devil: :wink:

Two points about the pretzel, 1) is offering the hand a signal or a lead or neither. Surely it is no differnent from offering a hand when you step back for an armjive? :confused:

2) I think it is nicer to go into a pretzel double handed to start anyway. :grin:

Adam

Martin
23rd-December-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
Two points about the pretzel, 1) is offering the hand a signal or a lead or neither. Surely it is no differnent from offering a hand when you step back for an armjive? :confused:

2) I think it is nicer to go into a pretzel double handed to start anyway. :grin:

Adam

A hand is a hand, they either take it or not, I have done pretzles with absolute beginners who have never seen a pretzel, BUT they did take the hand.:D

A neckbreak lead, (Hand directing traffic) :sick: :blush:

If they do not take the hand, no sweat, you move onto the next move and make that move seem natural (false pretzel).:D

I have done Pretzels with truely advanced dancers which turned into "false pretzels" as they did not cotton on, no sweat, it's all good fun...:cheers:

cerocmetro
23rd-December-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Martin
A hand is a hand, they either take it or not, I have done pretzles with absolute beginners who have never seen a pretzel, BUT they did take the hand.:D

A neckbreak lead, (Hand directing traffic) :sick: :blush:

If they do not take the hand, no sweat, you move onto the next move and make that move seem natural (false pretzel).:D

I have done Pretzels with truely advanced dancers which turned into "false pretzels" as they did not cotton on, no sweat, it's all good fun...:cheers:

So are we saying you do not need signals.

Personally and especially when performing, I talk to Mandy or wink or look at her in a way that she will understand when I want to do a particular big move. I do not agree with Amir. I think signals are required but in certain situations, eg when doing a big move. However I will take that one step further and say that a big move signal needs a response, a nod, smile or something, otherwise the move may not work when requiring the lady to prepare herself.

Sorry ChrisA to burst the bubble but, look at Amir in the Jive Masters video and tell me he is not signallling. Perhaps we should practice what we preach.

However signals and leads do cross over. When is a lead a lead or when is it a signal.? A lot of it is about timing. (not all of it). Lead a move early it is a signal, otherwise it is a lead. Too late, it was a new move.

Adam

eastmanjohn
23rd-December-2003, 11:48 AM
Most signals are actually there as a requirement for the next part fo teh move. Most obvious is the Pretzel. Get your hand there early enough if you want it to be taken otherwise it's a false pretzel!!

Think about the beginners moves. First Move. Signal hand out to the side. Well it's only there to block the lady from stepping past you, otherwise it can become a manspin! And you need it on the lady's hip to help the pivot on beat 3. You can call it a signal for beginners, but by intermediates you know it's just something that has to be there to make the move work. And by intermediate level you know that you can delay the hand until your lead has brought you into the right position anyway.


I stopped teaching signals years ago. Well actually I stopped calling them signals years ago. I still tell beginners to put their hands in certain positions at the start of a move, but expalin how it will help on the next beat instead of calling it "the signal for the first move".

Martin
23rd-December-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
So are we saying you do not need signals.

Personally and especially when performing, I talk to Mandy or wink or look at her in a way that she will understand when I want to do a particular big move. I do not agree with Amir. I think signals are required but in certain situations, eg when doing a big move. However I will take that one step further and say that a big move signal needs a response, a nod, smile or something, otherwise the move may not work when requiring the lady to prepare herself.

Sorry ChrisA to burst the bubble but, look at Amir in the Jive Masters video and tell me he is not signallling. Perhaps we should practice what we preach.

However signals and leads do cross over. When is a lead a lead or when is it a signal.? A lot of it is about timing. (not all of it). Lead a move early it is a signal, otherwise it is a lead. Too late, it was a new move.

Adam


social, no signals, comps YES she needs to know "that special move" is coming. I normally do a lead move which we have pre-arranged will be a lead into "the big move"

I.E. if I do a secret move, next one is the rhonde kick. (our own special move...)

ChrisA
23rd-December-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
Sorry ChrisA to burst the bubble but, look at Amir in the Jive Masters video and tell me he is not signallling. Perhaps we should practice what we preach.

I'm not talking about competition dancing (about which I know next to nothing, anyway), and I'm not talking about "big" moves.

I'm talking about the moves you'd use in freestyle, for which signals are, or were, taught in Ceroc classes, and I still maintain that teaching them as led by visual signals is cobblers, and indeed counterproductive.

"Arm out at hip level" as a "signal" for the manspin?? Do me a favour...

"Arm up palm facing the lady" for one of the neck breaks... something else for another one. I can't remember which is which but somehow I seem to be able to lumber through either one, even with many beginners.

And even the dreaded pretzel.... having just done the experiment, it's (just) possible to lead it with the lady blindfolded and not expecting it, providing the music is slow and she isn't waving her arm about and making it unavailable. And if it's "just possible" for me, a mere amoeba on the evolutionary scale in dance, then I'm sure the greats would be able to achieve a lot more.

I'm not saying being able to see what's going on doesn't make life easier - duh.. - I'm saying that if people get it into their head that leading is about initiating a move with visual signals they will be condemned to a life of dancing without connection. Unless, of course, they get it because they either work it out for themselves, find someone who teaches it, or has your precious x-factor :devil:

Chris

stewart38
23rd-December-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I'm not talking about competition dancing (about which I know next to nothing, anyway), and I'm not talking about "big" moves.


"Arm up palm facing the lady" for one of the neck breaks... something else for another one. I can't remember which is which but somehow I seem to be able to lumber through either one, even with many beginners.


Chris

Tell me how you do a kneckbreak then with out a signal ?

cerocmetro
23rd-December-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
Tell me how you do a kneckbreak then with out a signal ?

And an Archie spin?

eastmanjohn
23rd-December-2003, 01:12 PM
You just lead your partner into your side and have your hand there when you actually need it.

Same for an archie spin. It isn't a signal that you do, just some preparation to make the next beat work.

ChrisA
23rd-December-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
Tell me how you do a kneckbreak then with out a signal ?
I'll have a go...

Step back L-R. Step in side to side, take R arm straight over lady's L shoulder. No "policeman directing traffic" signal needed.

Turn lady CW transferring her RH from guy's L to R, guy's RH in the "thumb down, palm out" position seems most comfortable.

Now there are lots of options. I lead the one where she goes back the way she came with a clockwise turn with pressure from my upper arm, counterbalanced with a slight pull and raise with RH as she steps out and turns. Or bring RH straight down out of the neck-break with lady turning just to face, ending with a R-R handshake hold.

The slightly harder one is where you change places; it's much the same except that you have to initiate the change of places by stepping to the other side and turning CW to face while leading her into the CW turn, otherwise it's not clear to her where she's supposed to go.

It doesn't require large forces, and you should always be ready to abort the move and turn it into something else.

I'm not articulating this very well. I'll dance it with you if you like :devil:

Chris

cerocmetro
23rd-December-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by eastmanjohn
You just lead your partner into your side and have your hand there when you actually need it.

Same for an archie spin. It isn't a signal that you do, just some preparation to make the next beat work.

mmm, try it without beaking your partners arm, or the move just not working.

Actually I think this is one of the very few moves that does need a signal, or is it a lead:confused: . I think on this one it is both

I do agree, you do not need a signal for a neckbreak, but it does help especially for an open neckbreak

Adam

ChrisA
23rd-December-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
And an Archie spin? What visual cue are we talking about for an (I assume LH) archiespin??? I'm not aware of one.

Are we at cross purposes here? This thread is AFAIK about visual cues that initiate a move without a requirement for physical connection...

Sure there's some preparation just before the archie, and great care during as well so as not to yank, but surely you're not telling me that a "thumb on the back of the hand" means "archie" ???

Chris

cerocmetro
23rd-December-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
What visual cue are we talking about for an (I assume LH) archiespin??? I'm not aware of one.

Are we at cross purposes here? This thread is AFAIK about visual cues that initiate a move without a requirement for physical connection...

Sure there's some preparation just before the archie, and great care during as well so as not to yank, but surely you're not telling me that a "thumb on the back of the hand" means "archie" ???

Chris

Sorry.. but what does AFAIK mean?? and what do you mean without physical connection, we are dancing and I though the thread was hand signals are a thing of the past, what is turning the ladys hand over with a thumb on the back if it is not a hand signal?

maybe it is too close to Xmas and I am losing it?:cheers:

Adam

JamesGeary
23rd-December-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Will
What about the Pretzel then, smartiepants!!! :devil: :wink:

while holding my right hand behind my back, I rotate more to the right than usual so that my back is almost too her and then with the hand that is behind my back I grab her hand and complete the move. :wink: :wink:

JamesGeary
23rd-December-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
Tell me how you do a kneckbreak then with out a signal ?
Its easy. Just try it! When she opens up like a first move I throw or place her hand from my right left hand to my right hand, I can then lead whichever direction I want her to rotate.

JamesGeary
23rd-December-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
And an Archie spin?
Easy. If you are finding leading it without a signal (I don't believe I apply pressure with my thumb or twist the hands upwards anymore, I say believe before Adam starts quoting Jivemasters videos) difficult then get closer. If it is still difficult then begin turning her before you begin your turn.

cerocmetro
23rd-December-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
Easy. If you are finding leading it without a signal (I don't believe I apply pressure with my thumb or twist the hands upwards anymore, I say believe before Adam starts quoting Jivemasters videos) difficult then get closer. If it is still difficult then begin turning her before you begin your turn.

And what is your hand doing before you turn her?

Adam

ChrisA
23rd-December-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
Sorry.. but what does AFAIK mean??
AFAIK = as far as I know.


and what do you mean without physical connection

Well, signals like Ceroc has historically taught - like arm out at hip level for the manspin, traffic cop signals for neckbreak. VISUAL signals.

I agree there's a grey area when the signal is an offered hand, but like I said, it is possible to dance a pretzel with the lady blindfolded.


, we are dancing and I though the thread was hand signals are a thing of the past, what is turning the ladys hand over with a thumb on the back if it is not a hand signal?

You certainly don't need the thumb on the back, though it helps to ensure no slipping grip; and the turning the lady's hand over isn't a signal as in "I've just turned your hand over, so you do an archie" - it prepares the lady's whole arm and starts to turn her body out so that the arms can pass over the top without yanking.

I'd call this a lead, not a signal, but it's slightly moot I agree.

Just to be clear, it's a set of visual "A means B" codes that I'm arguing against.


Chris

spindr
23rd-December-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Just to be clear, it's a set of visual "A means B" codes that I'm arguing against.

Like touching your right shoulder with your right hand/fingers to signal a first move jump :)

SpinDr.

TheTramp
23rd-December-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by spindr
Like touching your right shoulder with your right hand/fingers to signal a first move jump :)

SpinDr. Oh yeah. Don't do it. Ever.

Steve

eastmanjohn
23rd-December-2003, 02:51 PM
But the thing is, the thumb on the back of the hand isn't needed to lead the move. A slight twist to the left to allow some rotation to the right on the next beat is all it takes. No thumb prints required in the back of the lady's hand. Therefore, the thumb is being used as a signal!!

LilyB
23rd-December-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by spindr
Like touching your right shoulder with your right hand/fingers to signal a first move jump :)

SpinDr. Why? What's the correlation? :confused:

spindr
24th-December-2003, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by LilyB Why? What's the correlation? :confused:

That was sort of the point, a true visual signal for a move...
...then again since the Lr hands are held, I guess the man has to use his R-hand. The pointing at the R-shoulder *could* have been a cue for the lady to place her hand directly on top of the man's shoulder (to get a "clean" push, as she jumps away), rather than slightly behind his back/shoulder (or some other position where her l-hand might catch inadvertantly)?

SpinDr.

JamesGeary
24th-December-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by cerocmetro
And what is your hand doing before you turn her?

Adam

Giving her the A OK signal, because she is about to be led into a stylish type of turn she has never done before by my left hand.

JamesGeary
24th-December-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by spindr
Like touching your right shoulder with your right hand/fingers to signal a first move jump :)

SpinDr.

Has anyone ever seen anyone actually do this move? I know people teach it left right and center. They all learn it. But in 9 years I have honestly never seen anyone do it. I guess its kind of like owning a skoda. You might have one in the garage, but you sure as hell aren't going to drive it out on the road where people might actually see it.

TheTramp
24th-December-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
Has anyone ever seen anyone actually do this move? I know people teach it left right and center. They all learn it. But in 9 years I have honestly never seen anyone do it. I guess its kind of like owning a skoda. You might have one in the garage, but you sure as hell aren't going to drive it out on the road where people might actually see it. Actually. I do it occasionally. Y'know. When there's room.

You have a problem with this then? :D

Steve

DavidY
24th-December-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
I guess its kind of like owning a skoda. You might have one in the garage, but you sure as hell aren't going to drive it out on the road where people might actually see it. Umm... I own a Skoda. :D

And I drive it a lot - even outdoors. It gets me to lots of dance venues very nicely Thank You and is even quite fun to drive.

They got a lot better (and correspondingly less cheap) when VW took over.

JamesGeary
25th-December-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by DavidY
Umm... I own a Skoda. :D

Whoops! :blush:
And TheTramp does the first move jump :blush: :blush:

OK, no more cheap jibes from me.
In fact I would be pleased to own a Skoda, as it would be easier than chasing after taxis like I do right now!

Gadget
28th-December-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by eastmanjohn
Think about the beginners moves. First Move. Signal hand out to the side. Well it's only there to block the lady from stepping past you, otherwise it can become a manspin!
erm... perhaps I'm doing it wrong, but I can (and have) lead a first move without the right hand (I think I was rapidly stuffing something into a back pocket...:blush: she noticed {duh}, but still followed the lead.)

As to offering the hand being a signal; personally I try never to "offer", but "collect" instead - I think that this is more of a lead than sticking a hand out. {Note the [i]try[i] - it works 80-90% of the time :rolleyes:}
I have used verbal signals, but I generally limit them to "spin", "lunge", "slide", "freeze", "dip" and "drop?" I occasionally use these in conjunction with a specific lead I haven't done with a particular lady yet, or tried to lead with them and it's gone slightly sqiffy.

under par
9th-July-2004, 09:08 AM
- Make it obvious that you still have a connection with the hand, but don't lead anything. A fingertip lead is good for this.

- Don't pick a boring bit of music for her - the last 8 counts of a verse or chorus are usually pretty good, and a bridge is even better.

- Watch her. If she does something, then let her. If she doesn't, then carry on dancing.

- Don't expect her to catch on straight away. Not enough men let the ladies do something, so the ladies don't expect it.

- Don't make it happen suddenly. You are inviting the lady to do something. An invitation should be along the lines of "Would you like to play to the next bit of music". It should not be "PLAY"! So slow her movement down for a couple of beats before stopping the lead.


David great tips..... :worthy: I too will be printing them off and trying to use them.

Wonderful thing this forum. :yeah:

I'm always too busy dancing at venues to ask questions and listen to advice or even talk very much at all (except for 15 minutes when the music finishes).

So reading theories and advice in a calm atmostphere at home is great. :cheers:

Andy McGregor
9th-July-2004, 09:48 AM
Has anyone ever seen anyone actually do this move?

When I'm following I get this move done to me quite often. I try to tuck my feet under my bottom so I look like I've jumped higher than I really have. It seems to impress people more than something like nice footwork:confused:

I rarely use the move myself because it's illegal in competitions: can't think of a way of leading this move which would get my partner to do it in the same timing as you get with the signal - but I'm sure I could lead it with a different timing. I can't think of any other moves I do which have a visual or verbal signal. I lead everything by changing pressure or moving the frame about, etc.

N.B. I've just noticed that I've replied to an ancient thread. That Under Par has too much time on his hands and is looking up old and interesting threads. I think I'll nip out and start a crime-wave to keep him busy:devil:

under par
9th-July-2004, 11:46 AM
N.B. I've just noticed that I've replied to an ancient thread. That Under Par has too much time on his hands and is looking up old and interesting threads. I think I'll nip out and start a crime-wave to keep him busy:devil:


I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE :angry:

Andy McGregor
9th-July-2004, 11:54 AM
I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE :angry:

But I'm not me, I think someone very short has got my password and is winding up very tall policemen :eek:

p.s. Anyone want to buy a policeman's helmet:devil:

anitaL
11th-August-2004, 03:08 PM
At the class I attend the men are told that exaggerated hand signals are unnecessary if you are a good lead. Any necessary hand signals are kept as subtle as possible and it does look much better. Extreme hand signals can look quite funny and a bit dated.

MartinHarper
2nd-November-2004, 02:24 PM
(below all in my humble opinion - salt to taste)

Offering hands. I take Gadget's point that, if the girl is keeping frame with the relevant arm, it is normally possible to lead her so that you can naturally "collect" her hand. However, beginner women typically don't keep frame, so I find it best to use an offered hand as a signal. Advanced dancers can keep frame, so they can be lead into such moves with no signal, or blindfolded. However, it seems like a bit of an imposition to expect a dancer much better than myself to be keeping frame all the time, avoiding styling options, just on the off-chance I might want to pick up a hand without signalling for it. So even there, I think I'd prefer to offer a hand as a way of signalling "please keep frame in that arm for a bit".

I'm curious that nobody has mentioned one sort of visual cue/lead/signal that I think is cool: body position. Eg, placing my body in my partner's path to signal her to stop, or moving to the side to signal her to pass me on the other side. Also bad?

Another set of visual cues I like are floorcraft-derived. Eg: glancing at a position I intend to move me or my partner (or both) into, or sweeping out a space with my arm that I intend to move my partner into. I figure I'm going to be doing such things anyway, women are going to cue off them anyway, so best if I know and control what I'm cueing.

Signalling neck breaks. Hmm... I realise that some of you can lead it with no signal, but I have trouble. Two things tend to get wrong if I don't signal:
1. In theory, lady's left hand should be in front of me on beat 2/3, so I can take it if I want. I'm not sure how I lead her to ensure that - rather than it being on my right shoulder, say.
2. To take up the lady's offered hand, I need to transfer the lady's right hand from my left to my right, and then pick up her offered left hand with my left. Outside slow songs, I find this is too much to do on one beat. If I signal, I can "throw" the lady's right hand into my signalling hand, and the move is much less frantic. If I "throw" without having signalled, I end up leading the girl to spin on the spot.

spindr
2nd-November-2004, 03:03 PM
Offering hands. I take Gadget's point that, if the girl is keeping frame with the relevant arm, it is normally possible to lead her so that you can naturally "collect" her hand. However, beginner women typically don't keep frame, so I find it best to use an offered hand as a signal. Advanced dancers can keep frame, so they can be lead into such moves with no signal, or blindfolded. However, it seems like a bit of an imposition to expect a dancer much better than myself to be keeping frame all the time, avoiding styling options, just on the off-chance I might want to pick up a hand without signalling for it. So even there, I think I'd prefer to offer a hand as a way of signalling "please keep frame in that arm for a bit".

Not sure quite what you mean by keeping frame in a "spare arm" -- if you mean keeping it at waist height and accessible, then that should be the default, unless styling. But then most Modern Jive followers don't do a lot of arm styling -- even in Salsa where arm styling is much more commonplace, the follower should always take an offered hand (as a priority, over styling).


I'm curious that nobody has mentioned one sort of visual cue/lead/signal that I think is cool: body position. Eg, placing my body in my partner's path to signal her to stop,

Tend to use this a reasonable amount -- although it's probably advisable to keep compression in the handhold(s) to avoid the follower crashing in to you -- if they don't expect it.


or moving to the side to signal her to pass me on the other side. Also bad?

Well, you can also turn 90 degrees -- this makes it even easier for the follower to get past you -- assuming that your breadth (front-to-back) is less than your width (left-to-right). I think some teachers call it "opening a door".

It's used a lot in slotted dances, espec. WCS and cross-body Salsa.


Another set of visual cues I like are floorcraft-derived. Eg: glancing at a position I intend to move me or my partner (or both) into, or sweeping out a space with my arm that I intend to move my partner into. I figure I'm going to be doing such things anyway, women are going to cue off them anyway, so best if I know and control what I'm cueing.

It's not a bad idea -- it also tells other couples how you intend to move, etc.
And keeping a hand near you partner gives you the option for emergency braking if/when required.


Signalling neck breaks. Hmm... I realise that some of you can lead it with no signal, but I have trouble. Two things tend to get wrong if I don't signal:
1. In theory, lady's left hand should be in front of me on beat 2/3, so I can take it if I want. I'm not sure how I lead her to ensure that - rather than it being on my right shoulder, say.
2. To take up the lady's offered hand, I need to transfer the lady's right hand from my left to my right, and then pick up her offered left hand with my left. Outside slow songs, I find this is too much to do on one beat. If I signal, I can "throw" the lady's right hand into my signalling hand, and the move is much less frantic. If I "throw" without having signalled, I end up leading the girl to spin on the spot.

Lead it from a double hand hold to start with -- or does that move have a different name?

SpinDr.

Andy McGregor
2nd-November-2004, 03:17 PM
Signalling neck breaks. Hmm... I realise that some of you can lead it with no signal, but I have trouble.

IMHO the signal for the neck-break demonstrates everything that's wrong with signals. It looks bad, it's got very little to do with the actual move and different people use the open and closed signals different ways around :confused:

My advice to everyone is to get a teacher to show you how to do these moves without the signal. The move flows more smoothly and you can do variations when the follower doesn't follow the pre-programmed steps dictated by the 'how' signal. I think that it would be better to drop the moves from your 'move quiver' than continue to do something that has so much wrong with it - there's hundreds of moves, replace the signalled neck-break with something that can be led without a signal rather than doing that 'how'.

ChrisA
2nd-November-2004, 03:31 PM
IMHO the signal for the neck-break demonstrates everything that's wrong with signals. It looks bad, it's got very little to do with the actual move and different people use the open and closed signals different ways around
:yeah:

Particularly the "it looks bad" - and I have no idea which is which either.

Step forward, initiate the girl's turn, transfer hand when you can reach comfortably. Then either lead her back and forward again, with the unwrapping turn (no idea what it's called) in front of you, or turn her behind you and turn to face (no idea what that's called either).

If you can't do this without a visual signal as cue, find someone who's prepared to help and can follow well, and do it really slowly, feeling where she is at every point through the move. Then gradually speed it up.

Chris

Lou
2nd-November-2004, 03:41 PM
IMHO the signal for the neck-break demonstrates everything that's wrong with signals.

Which one? The CerocTM "Traffic Cop" one, or the LeRoc friendly "I'm going to get you with my Cobra" one?

(To describe the LeRoc signal to those of you who haven't had the pleasure of seeing it:
the signal for a closed Neck Break features the man's right arm extended, horizontally, out to the side at shoulder height, with the elbow bent so that his forearm is at 90 degrees to the rest of the arm, still horizontal, pointing forwards, with the palm pointing downwards. It's meant to indicate to the lady to step into the hold, and is actually more logical that the CerocTM version, but does still look daft. The open Neckbreak signal is similar - except that the arm is not bent).

ChrisA
2nd-November-2004, 03:58 PM
Which one? The CerocTM "Traffic Cop" one, or the LeRoc friendly "I'm going to get you with my Cobra" one?

Both extremely yucky IMHO. They make the guy look like a Dalek, and about as attractive.

Though at least with the wheels they dont bounce :whistle:

Chris

Gadget
2nd-November-2004, 04:01 PM
:tears::what: I agree with Chris and Andy!! {:wink:}

To lead the 'neck-break', I simply use R-R and wrap the lady in at shoulder height rather than waist height - you need to start it as per a normal wrap, then smooth to shoulder. If you get the timing wrong, you may have to release the lady to block her again on the shoulder before she goes into a turn. And if you get this wrong it could end up in a "clothesline" move.
With the left hand, I would start as an "open first move", but lift my hand to shoulder height on the 'open out' section.

Gadget
2nd-November-2004, 04:10 PM
Which one? The CerocTM "Traffic Cop" one, or the LeRoc friendly "I'm going to get you with my Cobra" one?
I think that the main reason for the difference is that Ceroc used to teach the man-spin with the 'deadly ninja strike' pose, which is a bit lower than the 'poised cobra' of LeRoc, but could be confused if ether is not signaled clearly.

ChrisA
2nd-November-2004, 04:12 PM
:tears::what: I agree with Chris and Andy!! {:wink:}

To lead the 'neck-break', I simply use R-R and wrap the lady in at shoulder height rather than waist height - you need to start it as per a normal wrap, then smooth to shoulder. If you get the timing wrong, you may have to release the lady to block her again on the shoulder before she goes into a turn. And if you get this wrong it could end up in a "clothesline" move.
With the left hand, I would start as an "open first move", but lift my hand to shoulder height on the 'open out' section.

You must have spell-checked this post - there's not a single spelling mistake in it...

... thank heavens the neck-break isn't a begginer (sic) move, or there'd have been several...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

ChrisA
2nd-November-2004, 04:13 PM
if ether is not signaled clearly.
Phew... normal service has been resumed :devil: :D :eek: :whistle:

Lou
2nd-November-2004, 04:51 PM
... thank heavens the neck-break isn't a begginer (sic) move, or there'd have been several...

It's a begginer move for us! :D

Oh, and apparently Daleks now come with Jet Powered Thrusters (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004510454,,00.html) :wink:

Andy McGregor
2nd-November-2004, 06:59 PM
... thank heavens the neck-break isn't a begginer (sic) move, or there'd have been several...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The Begginer move, often spelt 'beggdinner movfe' (the 'd' and the 'f' are silent). This move starts with a RtoR hand hold with the left hand held at waist height with the palm upwards. As you bring the lady into a sway you whisper 'Big Issue?' into their left ear, they place a £1 coin in your left hand and you spend the night drinking soup with a couple of junkies and a millionaire who's run away from the pressure.

This move can not be done during your first 6 weeks as it requires the growing of an unkempt beard and the purchase of a spaniel :wink:

jockey
2nd-November-2004, 08:06 PM
At the class I attend the men are told that exaggerated hand signals are unnecessary if you are a good lead. Any necessary hand signals are kept as subtle as possible and it does look much better. Extreme hand signals can look quite funny and a bit dated.
Hand signals cannot, in general, be a thing of the past because they serve at least two useful purposes: first, they inform quickly and effectively what is to come to someone who, necessarily as follower, cannot know what is to come; and ,second, they are a safety feature in modern jive. Focussing on the neckbreak signal, as the discussion has hitherto (sofaras I can tell), finding it ugly and unnecessary and then implying that "hand signals are a thing of the past" simply wont do.
If we focus on lifts and drops it becomes readily apparent that signals are useful and necessary: e.g., the first (move) jump. Here the man points to his right shoulder with his right hand indicating the move and where the follower understands the signal she flies out ahead of the lead in terrific leap and graceful landing; where she is looking for her next partner during the move and misses the signal you get a'lap sit' or a 'fireman's lift' and 2 weeks rest and recuperation...
Yes, a good dancer can do a 'screwdriver' and a 'neckbreaker' w/o signals but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater - hand signals are here to stay.

David Franklin
2nd-November-2004, 08:38 PM
If we focus on lifts and drops it becomes readily apparent that signals are useful and necessary: e.g., the first (move) jump. Here the man points to his right shoulder with his right hand indicating the move and where the follower understands the signal she flies out ahead of the lead in terrific leap and graceful landing; where she is looking for her next partner during the move and misses the signal you get a'lap sit' or a 'fireman's lift' and 2 weeks rest and recuperation...Seems to me you're disproving your own point - you've just described 2 weeks rest and recuperation due to using a signal. And what if the lady went to a different workshop where that's the signal for a hip-hop, or a half-tumble, or a superwoman? (I have seen that signal taught for all of those).

There are no universally recognized symbols for lifts and drops!

In general, lifts and drops are the worst things to use signals for, because if your partner doesn't know the signal, they are likely to get hurt. At least if someone doesn't know the signal for a neckbreak, it doesn't mean they're in danger of literally breaking their neck...

If you want to agree a set of signals with a partner (who knows the aerials), that is not unreasonable (though I would always use a verbal lead myself). But do not use signals for airsteps with someone you don't know! In fact, let me simplify that - don't do airsteps with someone you don't know!

Dave

Andy McGregor
2nd-November-2004, 09:44 PM
Hand signals cannot, in general, be a thing of the past because they serve at least two useful purposes: first, they inform quickly and effectively what is to come to someone who, necessarily as follower, cannot know what is to come; and ,second, they are a safety feature in modern jive. Focussing on the neckbreak signal, as the discussion has hitherto (sofaras I can tell), finding it ugly and unnecessary and then implying that "hand signals are a thing of the past" simply wont do.

Because ...?

Hand signals are not a thing of the past. They weren't necessary then either. They are not required for Modern Jive. If you can't lead it by tension and normal lead and follow maybe you shouldn't be doing it at all. If you really must do a neck-break you can lead it perfectly well without a signal. The addition of a signal just makes you look like you're directing traffic and introduces the opportunity for your partner to mis-read your signal.

To say you are needed to 'inform quickly and effectively what is to come to someone who, necessarily as follower, cannot know what is to come' is to misunderstand what Modern Jive is all about. The followers don't need to know 'what is to come' they just need to follow what is being led.

'simply won't do' is a confrontational statement with no substance, come on jockey we need a bit more or a reasoned argument: simply won't do for what?

MartinHarper
2nd-November-2004, 11:35 PM
Well, Gadget and Spindr suggest leading some other move ibstead. Probably good advice, but I'm way too stubborn for that. :) Andy's advice to get a teacher to demonstrate the technique is probably best. I'm still skeptical though. I think I've got a reasonable idea of what I should be doing, but I'm not convinced I'm capable of doing it.


You can do variations when the follower doesn't follow the pre-programmed steps dictated by the 'how' signal.

Hmm, this isn't my experience. I don't find that the neckbreak signal hinders me from leading the few variations I know after the second beat. The "preprogrammed" stuff only seems to happen on that second beat, with most women. A few women will dance entire moves based on the first couple of beats, but they seem to do that regardless of whether I'm using signals. :)


Which one? The CerocTM "Traffic Cop" one, or the LeRoc friendly "I'm going to get you with my Cobra" one?

I generally just sweep my arm out at shoulder height. Seems to work as well as any of the more precise signals I've seen. Same signal for open and closed. I have no idea whether this looks ugly.

MartinHarper
3rd-November-2004, 12:06 AM
Not sure quite what you mean by keeping frame in a "spare arm"

I've heard it described here as "holding a beachball" frame. For the purposes of this discussion, the important point is that the spare arm should be connected to the body. If the body rotates 90°, then the arm should likewise rotate 90°. The arm shouldn't change its height relative to the body. The arm shouldn't come in towards the body, or drift out away from it.

This means that the motion of the spare hand is predictable, so the lead can just get it to the right position and "collect" it (without even looking!), rather than using an offer/take hand signal. Nice trick if you can do it.


(hand signals) are not required for Modern Jive. If you can't lead (a move) by tension and normal lead and follow maybe you shouldn't be doing it at all.

What do you use in place of the standard offer/take hand signals?

Andy McGregor
3rd-November-2004, 12:48 AM
What do you use in place of the standard offer/take hand signals?

Firstly, these are not really signals at all. The follower is being asked to do no more than take your hand. Secondly, I feel that you should be able to lead any move with the woman being blindfolded. Instead of offering your hand to the woman, try collecting their hand.

Gadget
3rd-November-2004, 01:31 AM
Firstly, these are not really signals at all. The follower is being asked to do no more than take your hand. Secondly, I feel that you should be able to lead any move with the woman being blindfolded. Instead of offering your hand to the woman, try collecting their hand.
:yeah:
Well, almost any move... nope, let me retract that- "any move" would be right: arials rely on mutual agreement and practice: a verbal lead perhaps, but could be done blind.

MartinHarper
3rd-November-2004, 12:19 PM
These are not really signals at all. The follower is being asked to do no more than take your hand.

Certainly, when I use an offer/take hand signal, I'm not signalling much: just "please take my hand around the next beat". I don't see how that stops it being a signal.
Come to think of it, I'm not signalling much when I give a neckbreak signal either: again, just "please take my hand around the next beat".

What is it that makes the neckbreak signal something to avoid, whereas the offer/take signal in (eg) a secret move is ok, and "not really a signal"?

Andy McGregor
3rd-November-2004, 02:31 PM
What is it that makes the neckbreak signal something to avoid, whereas the offer/take signal in (eg) a secret move is ok, and "not really a signal"?

It doesn't look like you're dancing, more like you're directing traffic. The signal for the closed neck-break is telling oncoming traffic to stop the outside signal is telling oncoming traffic to turn left :innocent:

ChrisA
3rd-November-2004, 04:39 PM
It doesn't look like you're dancing, more like you're directing traffic. The signal for the closed neck-break is telling oncoming traffic to stop the outside signal is telling oncoming traffic to turn left :innocent:

Ok, so now I know the signals for each one. That's good.

But the ladies never jump for that raised hand in the "stop traffic" signal... does that mean they're not following properly?

:confused: :innocent: :devil: :whistle:

Chris

Andy McGregor
3rd-November-2004, 04:48 PM
But the ladies never jump for that raised hand in the "stop traffic" signal... does that mean they're not following properly?


I think it means they know their Highway Code better than their dancing signals :wink:

Lou
3rd-November-2004, 05:08 PM
But the ladies never jump for that raised hand in the "stop traffic" signal... does that mean they're not following properly?

FWIW... the traffic signal actually freaks me out, because I've not been taught it. It takes me a small while to work out and remember what it means. My first instinct, honestly, is to stop! :blush:

DavidB
3rd-November-2004, 09:19 PM
There are three basic rules of following:
- follow the hand
- match the pressure
- the hand closest to the lady's body does the leading

My definition of a lead is something that relies only on the lady applying these rules.

A signal is something the man does that requires something else - ie a learned response from the lady to follow. The more signals you have, the more the lady has to know, and the more chance there is of it going wrong.

The only thing close to a universal signal is offering the man's spare hand for the lady to take with her spare hand.


What is it that makes the neckbreak signal something to avoid, whereas the offer/take signal in (eg) a secret move is ok, and "not really a signal"?You are offering your spare hand to the lady, but you don't want her to take it. Instead you expect the lady to know that her right hand is going to be swapped from the mans left to her right, whilst she is turning. And she has to know how much to turn by looking at the position of the arm and the hand.

If you had a lady who had never been taught the neck break, the obvious thing for her to do would be to take the mans right hand with her left.

Plus the fact it looks silly.

Andy McGregor
3rd-November-2004, 11:03 PM
Plus the fact it looks silly.

Although there are at least two sillys: silly fun and silly stupid. The neck-break signal falls into the latter, IMHO.

Gadget
4th-November-2004, 12:34 AM
There are three basic rules of following:
- follow the hand
- match the pressure
- the hand closest to the lady's body does the leading
This last point is one of the best peices of knowledge ever passed on, and I keep forgetting it :blush:

It was recently pointed out to me that in a 'close first move' {ie ballroom frame} that you should lead with both hands- the back elbow maintaining contactand the hand on her back leading her, the front hand acting more as a fine tuning device than the primary lead.

Also there are a few moves where one hand is on the lady's hip and the other has her hand and is directing her - the 'lead' often will change to the hip hand with the 'connection' hand only acting as a gentle rudder to guide the lady.

I will have to think about this a bit more (again) while dancing - it seems to have been glossed over in my head.

Matthew
4th-November-2004, 12:40 AM
Although there are at least two sillys: silly fun and silly stupid. The neck-break signal falls into the latter, IMHO.

The other day we got shown a charming pat-a-cake move to do when the girl claps into your neckbreaking hand. Turns it right back into silly-fun :-p

Ghost
6th-November-2005, 10:35 PM
A theory on signals. I’d welcome the thoughts of the more experienced

Ok, I tried out all the methods above for doing a neckbreak without signals and found that one of two things happened. It either worked or it didn’t. :rolleyes:

But, what I realized was that it only didn’t work when I was dancing with a lady who was anticipating. The ladies who just followed – no problem, they worked fine. But the ladies who were anticipating had already decided that I was leading a first move / travelling return etc and so backled that regardless of the rest my actual lead.

So in effect to lead a neckbreak with these ladies, I have to signal. Which reinforces the idea that what they’re doing is right. It’s a vicious circle. I flowed with the backleads rather than fight them, so I suspect they believe that I actually did lead a first move etc. :tears:

This led me onto other thoughts. You learn a move in the Intermediate Class. Practice it in freestyle. It works fine. Next week you try it with someone who wasn’t there – quite a bit of the time it doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to, because they don’t know what they’re supposed to be doing. Now this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Take some time, practice the move, refine the lead, and dance it with someone else who doesn’t know it and gradually it will come. And then it’s yours – you can dance it with anyone :clap: .

Detour coming up, but then I’ll get back to signals. :wink: There’s a variety of arcade games known as ‘beat-em ups’ - they’re in most Service Stations. There are 3 main styles or playing them.
1. Bash the buttons randomly but with great passion.
2. Learn what the buttons mean and learn a few special moves
3. Learn all the arcane mysteries of the game.
Now obviously learning the combinations for 70 moves for a character, practicing them so you can do them all perfectly and go on internet forums to learn all the subtleties that go with it is just sad. :blush: Perfectly reasonable to perfect 400+ Ceroc moves though. :whistle:

And this I suspect is the point. If you don’t want to give that much time and effort to learning Ceroc, or you just want to be able to dance impressively quickly, then use signals and only dance with people who know the moves. Just as great fun can be had from button-mashing Street Fighter 2 into oblivion, great fun can be had from signaling your stock moves and looking great. :clap: And as great artistry can be seen from the masters of the chicken (www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/ ) so to can it be seen from the masters of the signaless dance. :worthy:

I only have one problem left. Signals should come with health warnings – something like “Beware signals can seriously stunt your long-term dance potential” - needs work, but you get the idea. I (currently) object to signals being represented as good and helpful things.

Anyways, that’s my latest step along the path. Thoughts?

Take care,
Christopher

ChrisA
6th-November-2005, 10:56 PM
fun can be had from signaling your stock moves and looking great.
But to whom? :confused: :eek: :tears:

This is obviously a new meaning of the word "great" that I hadn't encountered before.

(please, could someone bring out the wet haddock? Especially since he's starting to use Gadget-length posts, albeit spell-checked... :devil: )


I (currently) object to signals being represented as good and helpful things.

Ah, ok, let you off the haddock for now... :devil:

Ghost
7th-November-2005, 12:20 AM
But to whom? :confused: :eek: :tears:
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"


This is obviously a new meaning of the word "great" that I hadn't encountered before.
As in "Doesn't my wife look great?" (Yeah, good luck answering that one :whistle: )


Ah, ok, let you off the haddock for now... :devil:
Thanks, the ear-wax seems to be going too :wink:

Christopher

LMC
7th-November-2005, 10:10 AM
So in effect to lead a neckbreak with these ladies, I have to signal. Which reinforces the idea that what they’re doing is right. It’s a vicious circle. I flowed with the backleads rather than fight them, so I suspect they believe that I actually did lead a first move etc. :tears:
Flowing with backleads is what leads are supposed to do isn't it? IMO, if your partner is anticipating, it's her loss - I always have a far nicer dance if I concentrate on being easily led...


This led me onto other thoughts. You learn a move in the Intermediate Class. Practice it in freestyle. It works fine. Next week you try it with someone who wasn’t there – quite a bit of the time it doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to, because they don’t know what they’re supposed to be doing. Now this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Take some time, practice the move, refine the lead, and dance it with someone else who doesn’t know it and gradually it will come. And then it’s yours – you can dance it with anyone :clap: .
I always think conversations like this are fun :devil: :

Him: Were you in the class?
Me (smiling): No - but carry on, if I can follow the moves, you'll know you're leading them well
Him: :eek:

Andreas
18th-November-2005, 11:49 PM
Uhm, a Neckbreak should not need to be signalled. The general motion is very close to that of a First Move. passing the hand is something that also does not need to be forced. If a Neckbreak really doesn't work (w/o the lady conciously trying to kill the attempt), it means you need to check how well you bring the lady in to your right side. The move very much stands and falls with the positioning of the follower, same as with a first Move. Just here is less room for laziness :wink:


Now obviously learning the combinations for 70 moves for a character, practicing them so you can do them all perfectly and go on internet forums to learn all the subtleties that go with it is just sad. :blush: Perfectly reasonable to perfect 400+ Ceroc moves though. :whistle:

Yes, knowing hundreds of moves can be exciting and makes things easier. But dancing is not about moves, it is about making the best of what you get back to what you allegedly led and have fun.


And this I suspect is the point. If you don’t want to give that much time and effort to learning Ceroc, or you just want to be able to dance impressively quickly, then use signals and only dance with people who know the moves. Just as great fun can be had from button-mashing Street Fighter 2 into oblivion, great fun can be had from signaling your stock moves and looking great. :clap: And as great artistry can be seen from the masters of the chicken (www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/ ) so to can it be seen from the masters of the signaless dance. :worthy:

I never think that dancers that obviously signal moves look great, no matter how impressive the move. If it is a subtle signal, which is mostly unnoticeable for the audience, fine. But a visible signal absolutely sucks and never 'looks good'.

Ghost
19th-November-2005, 01:27 AM
Uhm, a Neckbreak should not need to be signalled.
:clap:


If a Neckbreak really doesn't work (w/o the lady conciously trying to kill the attempt),
Not sure if you were just giving general advice in which case :clap:
But if you're referring to my comment, my point is that by anticipating, effectively the lady is killing the attempt, though she probably doesn't see it like that.


Yes, knowing hundreds of moves can be exciting and makes things easier. But dancing is not about moves, it is about making the best of what you get back to what you allegedly led and have fun.
To you - I believe LMC refers to these sweeties as Move Monsters but I may have misunderstood. Gotta learn 'em all :wink:


I never think that dancers that obviously signal moves look great, no matter how impressive the move. If it is a subtle signal, which is mostly unnoticeable for the audience, fine. But a visible signal absolutely sucks and never 'looks good'.


This is obviously a new meaning of the word "great" that I hadn't encountered before.

As in "Doesn't my wife look great?" (Yeah, good luck answering that one :whistle: )
Again my point was that there's more than one way to do things. If someone believes they rock deeply by armjiving with their sweetheart for 4 minutes then good for them. If someone else wants to signal for all they're worth :clap: The only line I draw is when people start getting hurt. Other than that, as long as they're being considerate, I don't mind how they want to dance.

I do agree with what you're saying in terms of pure dance however. :cheers:

Take care,
Christopher

Ghost
19th-November-2005, 01:56 AM
If someone else wants to signal for all they're worth :clap:

On reflection, I got a bit carried away here - out of respect and gratitude to ChrisA's patience and advice, I take this back.
:cheers:
Christopher

Andreas
19th-November-2005, 05:49 PM
:Not sure if you were just giving general advice in which case :clap:
But if you're referring to my comment, my point is that by anticipating, effectively the lady is killing the attempt, though she probably doesn't see it like that.[quote]

It was indeed general advice. But to stick to your example: You can move, too, can't you? :wink: I am moving a lot, really a lot. That makes it easy for me to counteract many cases of anticipation. If you as the lead are just standing there, waiting for the follower to move into a position then yes, you will be likely to struggle a lot with anticipating ladies. :flower:


[quote]To you - I believe LMC refers to these sweeties as Move Monsters but I may have misunderstood. Gotta learn 'em all :wink:

I do know a lot of moves but by no means do I run through them all. I have left that stage :rofl: When dancing socially I often only do relatively simple moves and only change the ways I get into them or the exits. That (hopefully) provides plenty of variety to both dancers and little problems due to lack of complexity.

:cheers:

dancefiend
20th-November-2005, 04:53 AM
[QUOTE=AndreasI do know a lot of moves but by no means do I run through them all. I have left that stage :rofl: When dancing socially I often only do relatively simple moves and only change the ways I get into them or the exits. That (hopefully) provides plenty of variety to both dancers and little problems due to lack of complexity.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

Sounds good. About 6 months ago, I was still thinking about hand holds like R/R, L/R etc. Now I don't worry about this aspect any more. As a guy - through movement even if you miss a hand you can pick up some other body part like shoulder, upper arm, waist, forearm, other hand (not chest ever!!!) and work with the tension from there.

Unless you and your partner is moving directily opposit one another, you'll find something to pick up.