To Draw or not to Draw the semi circle....

[DavidB]

I can't understand why every teacher starts a move with the phrase "semicircle with your hand, and step back". Is it just styling, or a teaching technique, or am I missing something a bit more fundamental.

I learnt most of my Modern Jive in the '80s from Janie Cronin, and can't remember her teaching this. To get the lady to step back, you just led her back by gently pushing her away.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned. Or just plain old. :tears:

David

[Jayne]

Hi David,

Franck will probably have a better answer than me but....

I thought the semi-circle bit told your partner that you'd found a beat (not necessarily the right one!:wink: ) and that you were about to start dancing. This is then followed by a slight "push" against your partner to get her to step back, as you said.

Does this help?? :what:

Jayne

[Franck]

The semi-circle started in the late 80's, as a means to get Beginners off to a good start.
You are right, the semi-circle is not absolutely necessary, but if I remember my early training days, (James Cronin was doing the training, and then Janie) it was found that the pushing your partner back could easily be mis-understood, resulting in ackward (if not painful) starts.

The semi-circle also helps (in theory) in taking a reasonably small step back, and not pushing your partner miles away.
It looks (arguably) more stylish when you start (better than most alternative) and focuses the mind of Beginners.

Typically, though after a while, most dancers will reduce the size of the semi-circle and eventually do without altogether.
One of the things I teach at Style workshops is a variety of starting alternatives, to suit your mood / partner and of course the music.

Franck.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Jayne
Hi David,

Franck will probably have a better answer than me but....I was right...:rolleyes:

Jayne

[DavidB]

Thanks. It makes a lot more sense now.

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

Is this true ? I was lead to believe that the 'small semi circle to the left' was the 'C' of Ceroc and differentiatied between the franchise of Ceroc and the other variations of jive such as Leroc. The purpose being that Ceroc is trying to protect its franchise with at least some form of noticeable difference.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Is this true ? I was lead to believe that the 'small semi circle to the left' was the 'C' of Ceroc and differentiatied between the franchise of Ceroc and the other variations of jive such as Leroc. The purpose being that Ceroc is trying to protect its franchise with at least some form of noticeable difference. What a funny idea... :nice: I wonder if Leroc et al do an 'L' shape to start the dance then! I am getting visions of YMCA dance styles appearing all over the place...

The semi-circle was created as a different way to start the dance, but not different from other jives, mostly different from the formality of a Ballroom hold.

The main difference between Ceroc and other forms of Jive is not found in semi-circles or other small technical details, but in the method of teaching, the length and quality of training for Ceroc teachers and the standards maintained across the UK which more or les guarantee that wherever you are in the UK, a Ceroc night will be of the same high standards.
The name is registered to protect the goodwill Ceroc have accumulated over the last 20 + years, across the country, in providing the best possible experience to all dancers.

Franck.

[Lou]

Originally posted by Franck
What a funny idea... :nice: I wonder if Leroc et al do an 'L' shape to start the dance then! I am getting visions of YMCA dance styles appearing all over the place...

*lol* :D

Pardon me for sneaking in from the ...errrmmm.... "other lot"! ;)

We do the semi-circle thing... but we call it the "C Motion".


I'll sneak back out now.... sorry Franck..... :wink:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Lou
Pardon me for sneaking in from the ...errrmmm.... "other lot"! ;)

We do the semi-circle thing... but we call it the "C Motion". Hi Lou and welcome to the forum. No need to be shy, your input is just what we need. :nice:

So, it seems the circle thing is quite common after all but I am left wondering if during the classes anyone is feeling 'C' sick from all this 'C' motion !!! :wink:
Originally posted by Lou
I'll sneak back out now.... sorry Franck..... :wink: Please don't... Stick around, I am sure you'll fit right in.
This forum is for anyone interested in discussing dance / music etc... as well as talking about any stuff and nonsense with like-minded people; so grab a coffee and jump in the many threads available. :cheers:

Cheers,

Franck.

[Lou]

:yum: nice coffee! Thanks.

The other useful part of the semi-circle manoeuvre is that it indicates to we ladies which foot to step back on. By doing it, it slightly opens out the position between both dancers (assuming you're keeping some tension, that is!).

Try doing it in the conventional direction (anti-clockwise for you chaps) whilst the lady steps back on her right foot (say she was going into a return, for example), and see how awkward it feels for her. (Of course, this only applies to a class environment!)

In free dance I'd expect to start back on my left by default, anyway.

[eastmanjohn]

I think the whole C motion thing is just a teaching aid. It helps people at the back of the room see when you are starting some motion.

It only happens once in a freestyle dance anyway as after that all the moves are linked, so I don't think it is vita pint in the dance.

Sorry this is a reply to quite an old thread, but I'm new here!!

Cheers

John

[Franck]

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
It only happens once in a freestyle dance anyway as after that all the moves are linked, so I don't think it is vita pint in the dance.Not vital, but I am sure you have noticed how difficult it is for Beginners to actually get started... They have to find the beat, make sure they know which move they want to do and lead their (possibly un-familiar) partner into the dance!
So starting up is quite a challenge, and having something simple (like the semi-circle) makes a big difference!


Originally posted by eastmanjohn
Sorry this is a reply to quite an old thread, but I'm new here!!No problem, I love re-surrecting old threads. :cheers:

Franck.

[DavidB]

I'd forgotten all about this thread...


Originally posted by eastmanjohn
It only happens once in a freestyle dance anyway as after that all the moves are linked, so I don't think it is vital point in the dance.Does it only happen once? Quite a lot of people do it all the time, between every move. Part of this is natural - coming out of a return your hand tends to do a curve anyway. But in Jive the motion of the hand is very exaggerated (up and down, semi circles, moving the hand in a different direction to the body etc), and it seems that this is a conscious effort on the part of the teachers.

Another little observation about starting to dance. Most teachers and demonstrators now seem to do a twist step as they count the music in. (I think this is a good idea, as it gets everyone used to the timing.) But is there a competition to see who can do the biggest step in this twist? I saw a couple on Saturday who were close to falling off the stage. Maybe we should get Jonathan Edwards and Aisha Hansen to teach...

David

[eastmanjohn]

In Viktor and lydia's workshop they show big reversed multiple circles as a variation when stepping back. Looks great but difficult to repeat when linking moves. How does this fit into the semi circle idea?

I have incorporated a lot of V&L material into my dancing, especially the twists out of a return, but it really does require a different feel fromthe woman to make it work. It doesn't happen naturally for most dancers.

Any comments?

By the way, I agree that there is a feeling of the semi circle when linking moves, but it is worth considering the direction of this natural movement as you come out of a normal turn or a return. They happen in different directions. This will link into another thread if I'm not careful, as it also has a lot to do with how moves link. When we use returns .etc etc.

[horsey_dude]

Beginners usually move too fast.... I think the semi circle is less pronounced as you get better (for me i lower my hand as I go out and raise it as I come in).

Guys! Try goining though the motions of starting a first move (or something similar) and try pushing you hand straight out. It seems to turn it into a violent shove....

Once you are actually dancing it dosn't seem to come into play so much because you are already moving.

[horsey_dude]

I trying to respond to another thread and got it wrong.....

[Dreadful Scathe]

Im confused too.

Constantly.


Especially when dancing.


:)

[Ronde!]

We do the semicircle motion here, too; and it's even "officially" called "The C for Ceroc" by many teachers. :)

I always use it to start, even though I've been dancing a while now. The primary reason is courtesy, as most of the ladies here have learned to follow the C as their lead-off, and I love partnering beginners and making them feel good about their dancing! So one of the alternative starts would be inappropriate in this situation.

However, all the teachers here discourage "bopping". Such behaviour includes: continually jiggling handholds in time to the beat (including repeatedly doing the "C"), constantly bobbing your head as you dance, marching with the feet instead of keeping them near the floor. These things make dancing a lot less stylish and reduce the clarity and quality of leads.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Ronde!
I always use it to start, even though I've been dancing a while now. The primary reason is courtesy, as most of the ladies here have learned to follow the C as their lead-off, and I love partnering beginners and making them feel good about their dancing! So one of the alternative starts would be inappropriate in this situation.For a slightly alternative viewpoint...
I've been to a workshop with one of the top West Coast Swing teachers in the US (Mark Scheuffele), and he suggested always starting the dance differently - as a courtesy to the ladies. (In WCS the 'standard' start is a step called the Starter Step)

His argument was that over the course of an evening, a lady might have anything up to 30 dances, and it could get boring to start every one with this Starter Step.

Personally I think both arguments have their merits. I only do the semicircle if I'm in a beginners class, or the lady does it for me. In Freestyle, the first time I dance with someone I start simply (usually both hands) to avoid any confusion. A second dance and I might be more inventive.


However, all the teachers here discourage "bopping". Such behaviour includes: continually jiggling handholds in time to the beat (including repeatedly doing the "C"), constantly bobbing your head as you dance, marching with the feet instead of keeping them near the floor. These things make dancing a lot less stylish and reduce the clarity and quality of leads.Glad to hear it. I keep wondering where this distinctive style came from in the first place

David

[Emma]

Good grief David, posting at 3.43 am is surely beyond the call of duty! :grin:

[TheTramp]

He'd probably been kicked out of bed for suggesting in another thread that it was ok for me to cut in while he was performing with Lily.....:D

Steve

[Ronde!]

Originally posted by DavidB
Glad to hear it. I keep wondering where this distinctive style came from in the first place
I believe it comes from the beginner instinct to keep rhythm, and if it isn't picked up early, it can become habit. I used to "march" as a beginner, until I trained for my first competition, and a couple of teachers intervened to improve my style.

[Jon L]

Moderators N.B. That third line should read

'I am a man and I only draw the semi circle when dancing with beginners' -please amend thanks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This thread is aimed primarily at fellow intermediate/advanced brethren and honourable sisters who can dance the male part.

When I started ceroc/jive I was always taught to draw a semi circle as I stepped back.

After three years this habit is still with me, however I have come accross some better dancers who have told me there's no need now to draw the semi circle as I commence dancing to the record., so I am trying to reduce the size of the semi circle.

That said I still see Viktor doing it, but am I sure there are men who don't with regular ladies.

Thoughts and comments welcome.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jon L
That said I still see Viktor doing it
Ah, but Viktor at Hipsters does the semicircle in the opposite direction to the way Ceroc teaches it. When I asked him about it he denied that it had anything to do with trademark issues, but instead felt more natural.

Having been to quite a few of his recent classes I'm inclined to agree... but who am I not to?

When I'm at Ceroc, I'll semi-circle the way they want it. When I'm in Viktor's class, I do it his way. When I'm in Amir's class I do no such thing.

I'm flexible like that. :D :D :D

Chris

[TheTramp]

I always felt that the semi-circle was a artificial device, merely to show the ladies in the class when you were about to start dancing, aimed mainly at beginners.

Once people have the 'feel' for dancing, then an extension and compression with the leading hand (which turns the movement into a rock-step (step back then forward)) is sufficient.

I didn't realise that people actually got onto the dance floor, faced their partners, waited for the beat in the music, and then started the dance with a semi-circle :sorry

Steve

PS. I'm not sure that I explained this very well, but it's sort of early, and I didn't sleep well last night :tears:

[Dan]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I didn't realise that people actually got onto the dance floor, faced their partners, waited for the beat in the music, and then started the dance with a semi-circle :sorry



They do and that's exactly the way that they are taught at Ceroc. The simple aids that are very useful to the beginners, who perhaps have little previous dance experience, have become part of the Ceroc Credo. Many non-Ceroc teachers, e.g. Nigel and Amir teach alternatives in order to wean dancers off these "fixation". Apart from the "small semicircle to the left for a left hand move and a small semicircle to the right for a right handed move etc. " business, there is also the "offer the hand, and the ladies grab it" routine. Non-ceroc teachers will teach leaders to do a simple return or better, a travelling return to collect the other hand and making the link more flowy and natural.
Having said all that I can understand the Ceroc basic of getting the ladies to understand their role on this dance dialogue. The same beginners must surely watch the top competition dancers and think - Oy, they missed a bit there!!

Andre

[Chris]

Originally posted by Jon L
That said I still see Viktor doing it, but am I sure there are men who don't with regular ladies

I would imagine that the semi-circle business maybe started as a simplification so that beginners didn't have to learn about frame - the step back is 'signalled' rather than led. To use a simple push maintains frame (assuming it's established in the first place) and allows for continuous and more exact leading of the follower's position IMO. The semi-circle business is simply sloppy and encourages the woman to anticipate rather than follow.
:devil:
Having said that, it's a quick way of getting everyone dancing together from their very first lesson. The surprise comes in Viktor's dancing, cos he has made the semi-circles a positive style bonus. It's because of this that I often think of him as the leading archetype of British Ceroc (even without the publicity machine that used his image so much).

If I could do semi-circles as nicely as Viktor I'd probably do them a lot more. A number of ceroccers have great semi-circles - including Scott of Edinburgh; and I think even Franck is faithful to them a lot of the time
:wink:
Personally they're not for me (even if Viktor's teaching). But I find some woman often tend to 'lead' the semicircles so I go along with it sometimes for a quiet life
:wink: :wink: :waycool:

[xSalsa_Angelx]

My partner always starts with the semi circle, and I am forever always telling him not to start off with the semi circle as it looks like a beginner move, I don't think its really that necessary.

but try telling him what to do he thinks he's always right, lol

[Gadget]

I remember the first time I went to Ceroc; one couple stood out as 'better' than the rest. Thinking back on it, it was their entrance onto the dance floor that made that impression - a simple left to right lady-spin, but the lead began off the floor.

I think that the semi-circle start is usefull only when your partner litteraly 'walks' onto the floor without paying any attention to the music, then faces you expectantly.
If they are already stepping to the beat or moving with the music, then the lead onto the floor smooths into the first move of the dance.

{I'm sure that there has been discussion about this...here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1290&perpage=10&highlight=Another%20workshop%20idea&pagenumber=3) - third post down}

The only other time I use semi-circle leads are small ones with both hands when 'bouncing'.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Gadget
The only other time I use semi-circle leads are small ones with both hands when 'bouncing'.

Didn't see what you meant at first (I think you mean a horizontal 'bounce' between you and your partner?). But on an unrelated note, which comes first, semi-circles or the 'bouncing'? (ie beginners who 'jog' in and out with bouncy knees). I suspect the semi-circles encourage the habit :(

Now if Blues dancing were de rigeur . . . :wink:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Chris
Didn't see what you meant at first (I think you mean a horizontal 'bounce' between you and your partner?).
Yup: more a spiral lead than a semi-circle.

But on an unrelated note, which comes first, semi-circles or the 'bouncing'? (ie beginners who 'jog' in and out with bouncy knees). I suspect the semi-circles encourage the habit :(
It's not just beginners. And I suspect that it has nothing to do with the semi-circles, but the dancer trying to keep time with the music.

Another thing; when actually doing the 'semi-circle' - when do you step back?
* Semi-circle, and, (push)step back
* Semi-circle, and(push-begin step back), foot touches back
* Semi-circle, (push) step back
* Semi (push-begin step back) circle, foot touches back

("Push" being a gentle lead away)
:confused:Always confuses me when I think about it. {but I'm easily confused :(}

[Graham]

I really should read the question properly! I said I did it with beginners, but I was thinking about during the class. I never do it in freestyle, even with beginners. I think Chris is right about it being a convenient way of getting people started in synch before they've learned proper lead/follow technique.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget
Another thing; when actually doing the 'semi-circle' - when do you step back?
* Semi-circle, and, (push)step back
* Semi-circle, and(push-begin step back), foot touches back
* Semi-circle, (push) step back
* Semi (push-begin step back) circle, foot touches back
This question is basically how far in advance of the dance does your lead have to be: theoretically it should depend on who you're dancing with and how much "notice" they like.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Graham
I never do it in freestyle, even with beginners.Nor do I.
Originally posted by Gadget
but the lead began off the floor.
This is always a good plan, IMHO, especially with beginners. It also gives you the opportunity to know where they're at by the time you start dancing.

So by the time I get the new beginner to the space on the floor, I know whether I can just start dancing, or whether they need a little teach on the very basics of connection.

I don't like them to start with a feeling confusion or failure - which could happen if they fail to follow either a semi-circle or a compression-based lead into a rock step back as Steve described.

I danced with a lady last night who felt like a complete beginner, but had apparently been going irregularly to Ceroc for two years, apparently to me without picking up anything about connection and resistance :really: It took about two minutes to sort it out... at least for then - I expect she'll need to revisit it - but the transformation was astonishing.

I think persisting with semicircles just perpetuates this sort of confusion.

Chris

[Chris]

I think whether you use the semi-circles may also be about what style you want to achieve. Apart from the optional 'look' of the semi-circles, there's the question of how you like to communicate with that partner.

Aussies and Kiwis, it has seemed to me, use far more set signals -formal indications that require set responses. The semi-circle is like a set signal for any step back (not that the Kiwis use that one though).

My own preference has been to adapt many of these moves so that the set signal is made a natural, less obvious, part of the dance - eg taking the girl's hand in such a way as to achieve a desired hand hold rather than making a specific signal as is often taught. I think the follower has enough to do without remembering a secret language.

[DavidB]

The semi-circle has a very good reason for existing - to get leaders to start to lead before the movement, and to get the followers to move after the lead has started. This is especially useful for beginners, particularly when starting a dance.

It is such a simple and effective way of introducing this idea that most dancers (and possibly most teachers) don't realise this. And if it was only beginners who did it, I wouldn't have any problem with it.

However it has developed a life of its own. I can guarantee in every Modern Jive (not just Ceroc) class I do, virtually every lady will take my stationary hand and crank it round in ever increasing circles. I doubt any Ceroc teacher can actually teach a move without starting with the phrase "semi-circle with the hand and step back". Many people can't dance freestyle without doing a semicircle at every opportunity. I've heard talk of copyright issues (which I believe is a joke?), of discussions on how the direction of the semicircle is important for certain moves, and even on how it is the one thing that sets Modern Jive apart form other dance styles.

But if you think about it - what connection has the semicircle got to do with stepping back? When men do the semicircle, they also increase the pressure on the lady's hand. That increase in pressure is the lead - not the semicircle. Gadget mentioned a spiral lead - that describes it perfectly.

If you know when to start leading a move, then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do the semicircle. Like anything else in dancing - if you don't have to do it, then the only reason for doing it is because it looks or feels good. This is down to individual preference.

These are my preferences:
- Hand movements in Salsa look good because they are a natural extension of the rhythm in your body. The only two men I know who can put this same rhythm into Jive are Viktor and Dale. On everyone else it just looks like a forced semicircle with the hand.

- Does it feel good? After 6 dances at a Ceroc night last Saturday I had to strap up my left wrist. After 2 hours of dancing I could only lead moves with my right hand.


So I would like an option for "I'm a man, I never have and never will do a semi-circle with my hand"

David

[Tazmanian Devil]

Sorry have not voted on this thread as you have not put anything for us women that do the mens moves!!:confused:
I am a women that does the mens part and never has done or will do a semi circle to start a dance. Although in saying that I think that in lessons I think it's a good idea to start wit a semi circle to step back as it makes it a bit easier for the beginners :kiss: :hug:

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Chris
[
My own preference has been to adapt many of these moves so that the set signal is made a natural, less obvious, part of the dance - eg taking the girl's hand in such a way as to achieve a desired hand hold rather than making a specific signal as is often taught. I think the follower has enough to do without remembering a secret language. [/B]

The semi circle is a useful tool and has always been taught with enthusiasm at Guilford over the last 10yrs which I believe where John L comes from.

Some of the worse dances I see is where you have 'advanced male dancers trying to dance with women who obviously can't follow their lead, probably because the men are 'doing there own thing'

I would probably subconsciously start with semi circle if I don't know the person but if I knew them I doubt if I would.

[Chris]

Originally posted by stewart38
Some of the worse dances I see is where you have 'advanced male dancers trying to dance with women who obviously can't follow their lead, probably because the men are 'doing there own thing'

I would probably subconsciously start with semi circle if I don't know the person but if I knew them I doubt if I would.

Which is why I said "so I go along with it sometimes for a quiet life" :grin:

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Sorry have not voted on this thread as you have not put anything for us women that do the mens moves!!:confused:
I am a women that does the mens part and never has done or will do a semi circle to start a dance. Although in saying that I think that in lessons I think it's a good idea to start wit a semi circle to step back as it makes it a bit easier for the beginners :kiss: :hug:

Taz the first post in thread says it's aimed at men and ladies who can dance the man's part. I would have typed this but it would have made the lines a bit long :hug:

[thewacko]

Surely the semi circle is ok to learn a move - ok the move is about to start ...

but in Freestyle, my most common start is the armjive, especially with beginners, as this enables the couple to get the beat together, and then move on, with the more advanced dancers I start with many different methods, a favourite being walking on the floor with the lady walking behind me, but her hand draped over my shoulder, when I get to the part of the floor that has enough room to start i do a sort of twist pull turny sort of thing that then brings the lady in front of my and enables me to do ma thing.

But the semi circle ... oh please:waycool:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Jon L
Taz the first post in thread says it's aimed at men and ladies who can dance the man's part. I would have typed this but it would have made the lines a bit long :hug:


Oh ok thanks :kiss: So that means I am a man and never do a semicircle to start a dance :rofl:

Wacko hunny what do you think of that statement :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[thewacko]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
So that means I am a man and never do a semicircle to start a dance

Wacko hunny what do you think of that statement

:devil: looks like I am going to have to do some "mickey" moves tonight to prove the statement about being a man is or isn't true:devil:

:what: oh dear I hope it isn't, especially when I think of some of the things I've said never mind done to you:what:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by thewacko
looks like I am going to have to do some "mikey" moves tonight to prove the statement about being a man is or isn't trueOh no you wont!!:wink:
Originally posted by thewacko
oh dear I hope it isn't, especially when I think of some of the things I've said never mind done to youhey if I can do up close and personal moves with women why cant you do them with men? :confused: Although that would be a funny sight!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[thewacko]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
hey if I can do up close and personal moves with women why cant you do them with men? :confused: Although that would be a funny sight!!

:what: HELLO, this is the man who tried dancing ladies moves with the men at charlton, and you saw the reaction I got then.

:really: could you imagine the reaction I would get trying to do up close and personal.

:devil: BUT DON'T DARE ME:devil:

[eastmanjohn]

Originally posted by thewacko
lady walking behind me, but her hand draped over my shoulder, when I get to the part of the floor that has enough room to start i do a sort of twist pull turny sort of thing that then brings the lady in front of my and enables me to do ma thing.

But the semi circle ... oh please:waycool:

I'm going to guess that the first thing you then do is lead a return before doing any other move. Would I be right?

If so, maybe it would be interesting to get some discussion on the use of the 'return'. What is the concensus view on the need for a return and when to use them?

I guess this has come up before, but look forward to responses.

Cheers

John

[thewacko]

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
I'm going to guess that the first thing you then do is lead a return before doing any other move. Would I be right?

If so, maybe it would be interesting to get some discussion on the use of the 'return'. What is the concensus view on the need for a return and when to use them?

I guess this has come up before, but look forward to responses.

Cheers

John

it can be a return, but also a sort of pull down from the shoulder.

the main use of a return is to stop the lady from getting dizzy, but also a bloody good way of getting into moves such as a comb, or to get into a double handed move (catching the ladies right arm as she returns)

cheers

Phil



:what: aaaaargh I am starting to get serious:devil:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by thewacko
:what: HELLO, this is the man who tried dancing ladies moves with the men at charlton, and you saw the reaction I got then.

:really: could you imagine the reaction I would get trying to do up close and personal.

:devil: BUT DON'T DARE ME:devil:



well you could always ask Jon for a dance he knows the womens moves:wink: I think that would be rather interesting!! :rofl: :kiss: :hug:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by thewacko
it can be a return, but also a sort of pull down from the shoulder.

the main use of a return is to stop the lady from getting dizzy, but also a bloody good way of getting into moves such as a comb, or to get into a double handed move (catching the ladies right arm as she returns)

cheers

Phil[QUOTE]



I totally agree the return has many uses when dancing both the mens and ladys part :kiss: :hug:



[QUOTE]Originally posted by thewacko
:what: aaaaargh I am starting to get serious:devil:


:rofl: :rofl: YOU SERIOUS :rofl: :rofl: I dont think so some how!!:rofl:

[thewacko]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
well you could always ask Jon for a dance he knows the womens moves:wink: I think that would be rather interesting!! :rofl: :kiss: :hug:

:devil: well jon looks like the gauntlet has been thrown down:devil:

but should I call you graham or kevin:wink:

[Chris]

Originally posted by thewacko
[B]the main use of a return is to stop the lady from getting dizzy/B]
For beginners yes. But why 'stop her getting dizzy' when she doesn't (ie when she's learnt to spot). And what about those ladies who accurately finish their spin or turn a fraction of a second before the next beat so they can instantly be ready to respond to the amazingly fascinating idea you throw at them . . . and get a . . . wait for it . . . a return.

[thewacko]

Originally posted by Chris
For beginners yes. But why 'stop her getting dizzy' when she doesn't (ie when she's learnt to spot). And what about those ladies who accurately finish their spin or turn a fraction of a second before the next beat so they can instantly be ready to respond to the amazingly fascinating idea you throw at them . . . and get a . . . wait for it . . . a return.

but if they 'accurately' finish a fraction before the beat they are not that accurate are they!

and as I put in the rest of my bit, the return is then handy for getting into the next move innit

[Chris]

Originally posted by thewacko
but if they 'accurately' finish a fraction before the beat they are not that accurate are they!

Well it depends on what they are intending. If you watch many an advanced dancer she will use that last fraction of a second to add some styling with her free hand, so as far as the beat goes she finishes the move when she says she finishes it. If she's just ahead cos she hasn't timed it and stands there doing nothing I suppose it could look a bit off.

Chris (still working on my own spinning and timing!)

[stewart38]

Originally posted by DavidB
- Does it feel good? After 6 dances at a Ceroc night last Saturday I had to strap up my left wrist. After 2 hours of dancing I could only lead moves with my right hand.


So I would like an option for "I'm a man, I never have and never will do a semi-circle with my hand"

David

Were you dancing with women or apes :confused:

[thewacko]

Originally posted by stewart38
Were you dancing with women or apes :confused:

:devil: leave the boomster out of this:devil:


Originally posted by DavidB

- Does it feel good? After 6 dances at a Ceroc night last Saturday I had to strap up my left wrist. After 2 hours of dancing I could only lead moves with my right hand.


:tears: i know the feeling:tears:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by stewart38
Were you dancing with women or apes I've never danced with Boomer, but Gus can be a bit of a handful. He loves those spins though...

They were women. One lady said she hadn't been dancing for a couple of years, so I can forgive her. But some of the rest apparently go every week...

David

[thewacko]

Originally posted by DavidB


They were women. One lady said she hadn't been dancing for a couple of years, so I can forgive her. But some of the rest apparently go every week...

David

oh so you have danced with taz as well:devil: :devil: :devil:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by thewacko
oh so you have danced with taz as well:devil: :devil: :devil: It was nice knowing you. I hope Taz lets us know where to send the flowers...

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
They were women. One lady said she hadn't been dancing for a couple of years, so I can forgive her. But some of the rest apparently go every week...Well, you've gotta go regularly if you want to build up the muscle tone ya know!

Hmm... Taebo meets Ceroc.... Now's there's a marketing opportunity! Our resident martial arts expert TheTramp will of course fill in for Billy Blanks...

Dave

[thewacko]

Originally posted by DavidB
It was nice knowing you. I hope Taz lets us know where to send the flowers...

I'll take that as a yes then.

Knowing taz she will read these today and give me hell tonight, just as well I know she can take a joke innit:innocent:

[Bill]

I probably do the semi circle with absolute beginners when I'm taxi-ing but otherwise leave it out - or sometimes start with little circles as I start the move.

I'm sure DavidB siad something similar on another thread but I find I 'push' - or lead ( :na: ) the lady back with the back of my fingers and if the tension is correct she will step back. I only realised recently that I generally only use a couple of fingers and can pull/push easily enough if the tension is correct.

This was brought home even more at the Las Palmas holiday recently where Lorna spent some time on tension before going on to moves. I'm also reminded of soemthing N& N said years ago about actually starting to dance as you lead your partner on to the floor rather than walking on, standing facing each other and then doing the semi-circle.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Bill
I'm sure DavidB siad something similar on another thread but I find I 'push' - or lead ( :na: ) the lady back with the back of my fingers and if the tension is correct she will step back. I agree with your post, and just wanted to point out that I have merged both threads, so anyone who missed the original one, or can't remember should read posts in this thread from the start... It'll take you right back to the very early days of the Forum :wink:

Franck.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Franck
It'll take you right back to the very early days of the Forum :wink:

Franck.


good grief................... I can't keep up with the new posts let alone get time to read some of the old ones. Maybe I'll catch up during the holidays :sick: :rolleyes:

[eastmanjohn]

The ceroc idea that the left hand lead is a cemi to the left and a right hand a semi to the right must have some reasoning behind it.

I think it's interesting to see how the diretion of the push, semi circle or whatever, affects the way the lady steps back. I think you can make her step back ont he left or right foot depending on how you do it. I think this then affects the flow of the dance form then onwards.

Of course, you could think beyond teh start of a move and think about how moves link. What is teh motion of the hand as it comes down from the end of a return. Is there any feeling of a semi circle there? Surely if the last beat of the previous move is the first beat of the next move then the motions should be similar??

Personally I think the hand should come almost straight down from the return and finishes with a slight push away with the back of the fingers in the lady's palm (no semi circle). No wild sideways movement of the arm.

I don't teach the semi circle although I did grow up with it!!

Here's a thought. What happens if only the man steps back on the first beat. If this creates enough tension is the lady then ready to move forward on either foot for whatever follows?

[Rachel]

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
I think it's interesting to see how the diretion of the push, semi circle or whatever, affects the way the lady steps back. I think you can make her step back ont he left or right foot depending on how you do it. I think this then affects the flow of the dance form then onwards. Really? Is it true you can chose what foot a lady steps back on by the way you lead the semi-circle? I'm afraid, though, I'm probably a pretty bad follower - I always step back on the right at the start of a dance and can't seem to make myself do otherwise!


Personally I think the hand should come almost straight down from the return and finishes with a slight push away with the back of the fingers in the lady's palm (no semi circle). No wild sideways movement of the arm. Yes, that's certainly what feels best for the follower. And I'm pretty sure that's the Ceroc advice, too. It's certainly what Marc teaches, anyway.
Rachel

[Gadget]

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
Here's a thought. What happens if only the man steps back on the first beat. If this creates enough tension is the lady then ready to move forward on either foot for whatever follows?
The lady would go into her own thing: you have stopped leading.

[Chris]

Not sure who said it (from a dancer's profile page - thought it might be fun given the direction of the thread):

"To lead me, ask me where I'm going and walk in front."

[spindr]

Thinking about it :) -- the semi-circle is probably likely to make beginners (especially leaders) take bouncy steps -- leading the hand and arm up during the semi-circle is likely to induce more of a rise and fall as you step back.

I guess separating arm and body movements is probably an intermediate/advanced topic?

Having said that, I will use a semi-circle if I'm doing a beginner's class (in fact I'll lead all the signals, as well) to avoid confusing anyone. In freestyle/improver classes -- just a push away.

I have heard one teacher suggest that the semi-circle is actually a lead for the follower to do a cartwheel :)

Neil.

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by DavidB
It was nice knowing you. I hope Taz lets us know where to send the flowers...



Oh Taz knows exactly where to send the flowers!! Straight up his a~~e :rofl: :rofl:



[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidB
oh so you have danced with taz as well


You are so lucky I didnt see this till this morning as I'm not going to see you till Monday now!! Funny you never told me about this thread ay!! :rolleyes: But dont worry hunny I wont forget!!! :kiss:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by spindr
I guess separating arm and body movements is probably an intermediate/advanced topic? Very perceptive. I had a lesson once with Robert Cordoba. He talked about isolating your body from your hand, and then reconnecting as "Advanced Leading". It allowed a significant increase in the range of motion for both the man and the lady, while still maintaining a good light connection with your partner.


Originally posted by spindr
I have heard one teacher suggest that the semi-circle is actually a lead for the follower to do a cartwheel
:rofl: :rofl:

There is a signal we use for one of our lifts. Well - we don't use it, but Jules and Heather (HevMate) do when they are watching...

[Chris]

Originally posted by DavidB
There is a signal we use for one of our lifts. Well - we don't use it, but Jules and Heather (HevMate) do when they are watching...

That's a new one - getting your audience to signal your moves
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget
The lady would go into her own thing: you have stopped leading.

Not exactly.......... if the woman doesn't step back but the man has then as he has to step in again then he'll be where he was anyway. It's obviously a good and clear (possibly) signal that the dance has started.

The man might have wanted the woman to stay where she was before he led her into another move. The lady shouldn't really do anything unless the man clearly gives over the lead to her. If the man doesn't move either should she.............unless they've been to Lorna's workshops :na: :D However,there are some men who lead so badly that the woman have to guess when the moves has started and what the move is meant to be :rolleyes: :sick:

[kingo]

I don't see any need for an established dancer to semi-circle at the start of a dance.

However I do think that it is a very useful tool for beginers, and don't think there is anything wrong with anyone continuing to use it as they progress. Esp if they can stylise it like Viktor

As a beginner (especially as a man) it is sometimes hard to get into the rythm. I suggest that if this is the case then a side to side hand movement is used on th edance floor until both partners are on time and ready to dance. At that point, a semi circle is unambiguous and cannot be confused for a poor lead. An accomplished lead would effortlessly have the lady step back by some unconcious effort (perhaps only a change in tension) -but that only comes with experience.

In the beginning there was a letter and the letter was C and without it there were ony bobbing ladies to use to keep you on the beat.

[spindr]

Originally posted by kingo
In the beginning there was a letter and the letter was C and without it there were ony bobbing ladies to use to keep you on the beat.

Ah, but in the original translation it sayeth: "In the beginning was the the word, and the word was 'one' -- followed swiftly by 'two', 'three' and 'four'".

SpinDr (still trying not to count out loud).

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by spindr
Ah, but in the original translation it sayeth: "In the beginning was the the word, and the word was 'one'
Not 5?

Chris

[Nick M]

and the word was 'one' -- followed swiftly by 'two', 'three' and 'four'". [/B]

unlike Salsa dancers, where 'one' is followed swiftly by 'two', 'three' and 'five'

nick

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Nick M
unlike Salsa dancers, where 'one' is followed swiftly by 'two', 'three' and 'five'
nick
then there's Mambo, where it's not even on the 'one':eek:

[Gordon J Pownall]

then there's Mambo, where it's not even on the 'one':eek:


Please don't forget the Ceroc Teachers demo of routine / move.....

There is no one, two, three, four, five or six......


Just a.....


SEVEN........EIGHT........ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Emma]

Overheard in a beginner's lesson this week:

A very anxious lady who was there for her first time...

'Where's the semi-circle, where's the semi-circle...I'm a maths teacher and I don't see a semi circle!!'

:)

[The Pilgrim]

The purpose of the 'semi circle' is to introduce tension between leader and follower - a point not commonly known by most ceroc teachers :whistle: so therefore not explained or taught properly - hence the confusion.


----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[ChrisA]

The purpose of the 'semi circle' is to introduce tension
It sure does that :tears:

Chris

[The Pilgrim]

It sure does that :tears:

Chris


I shall amend my original post to include taxi dancers -

The purpose of the 'semi circle' is to introduce tension between leader and follower - a point not commonly known by most ceroc teachers or taxi dancers :whistle: so therefore not explained or taught properly - hence the confusion.


----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[eastmanjohn]

I shall amend my original post to include taxi dancers -

The purpose of the 'semi circle' is to introduce tension between leader and follower - a point not commonly known by most ceroc teachers or taxi dancers :whistle: so therefore not explained or taught properly - hence the confusion.


But the semi-circle itself doesn't create tension. I can do the semi circle with a very floppy arm and no tension/connection with my partner.

The tension can be generated without the semi circle and just a push with the back of the fingers in the palm of the lady's hand, so long as the partners balance with a slight tensing of the muscles in the arm.

The semi circle fills in time before the tension is required and changes the aesthetics of the dance. What happens between moves when you dance a sequence? Where is the semi circle then?

[The Pilgrim]

But the semi-circle itself doesn't create tension. I can do the semi circle with a very floppy arm and no tension/connection with my partner.

The tension can be generated without the semi circle and just a push with the back of the fingers in the palm of the lady's hand, so long as the partners balance with a slight tensing of the muscles in the arm.

The semi circle fills in time before the tension is required and changes the aesthetics of the dance. What happens between moves when you dance a sequence? Where is the semi circle then?


Precisely John. Unfortunately at most ceroc venues a fatuous 'semi-cicle' precedes the start of any set of moves - beginner or intermediate. Not explained, or taught properly by teacher or taxi dancer. I'm sure things are quite different at LeRoc :grin:


----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[Gordon J Pownall]

Precisely John. Unfortunately at most ceroc venues a fatuous 'semi-cicle' precedes the start of any set of moves - beginner or intermediate. Not explained, or taught properly by teacher or taxi dancer. I'm sure things are quite different at LeRoc :grin:

Errm.......well yes actually some :whistle: Ceroc teachers may not fully teach / explain the dynamics of the semi circle etc however, for beginners, the semi circle is a signal (and nothing more), that the dance / move is about to start.

I agree however that lead and follow beyond the minimal basics, is not covered in Ceroc Teacher training (unless little EmC can update us, as I did my training when the dead sea was only sick).

As The Oracle said somewhere, Ceroc / MJ is taught back to front. We teach moves to dance and then later on in workshops etc we actually teach people how to dance. Totally opposite to ballroom and other genres where you are taught how to dance / lead / follow and then taught the actual move to dance to. :confused:

The likes of myself, Adam Nathanson, Peter Phillips, David B and a few others of the 'older school' do make the distinction between what a semi circle is for and howyou actually lead the lady to step back / step in etc. using tension.

Beginners workshops are where i tend to spend more time addressing lead and follow and actually putting the semi circle issue to rights but it still remains (for beginners / newbies etc) an easy and important way of getting used to the start of moves in classes, as long as it is offset with the backup of clearer instruction in lead and follow..... :grin:

[Rachel]

... The purpose of the 'semi circle' is to introduce tension between leader and follower - a point not commonly known by most ceroc teachers or taxi dancers :whistle: so therefore not explained or taught properly - hence the confusion. Interesting ... What's your background, The Pilgrim? How come you know about things that 'most' Ceroc teachers and taxi's don't?
Rachel

[The Pilgrim]

Errm.......well yes actually some :whistle: Ceroc teachers may not fully teach / explain the dynamics of the semi circle etc however, for beginners, the semi circle is a signal (and nothing more), that the dance / move is about to start.

I agree however that lead and follow beyond the minimal basics, is not covered in Ceroc Teacher training


Hi Rachel, I refer you to Gordon's post above. Hardly surprising I think you'd agree that most ceroc teachers have little grasp of the subject.

I agree with Gordon, there are notable exceptions on the ceroc circuit - Adam N, Rob May, Mick Wenger, and Gordon himself of course immediately come to mind.


----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[under par]

Hi Rachel, I refer you to Gordon's post above. Hardly surprising I think you'd agree that most ceroc teachers have little grasp of the subject.

I agree with Gordon, there are notable exceptions on the ceroc circuit - Adam N, Rob May, Mick Wenger, and Gordon himself of course immediately come to mind.


----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."


What is the truth about the stranger who courts so much controversy.?? :confused: :rolleyes:

[Rachel]

Hi Rachel, I refer you to Gordon's post above. Hardly surprising I think you'd agree that most ceroc teachers have little grasp of the subject. ... Why are you referring me to Gordon's post? He's not answering the questions I asked you: 'what's your background and how come you know things that most Ceroc teachers and taxis don't?'

Just curious, that's all ... Do you teach? Taxi? Do you know of teacher training courses where the importance/significance of the semi-circle is well explained? Do you consider the semi-circle necessary? If so, how would you teach it?

Basically, can you expand a little more on what you said? Given that you talk about 'most' Ceroc teachers and taxis, which venues have you been to? (Though, obviously, I'm not asking you to name those who you consider bad teachers on a public forum.)

Of course, you don't have to answer any of this, if you don't want. It would just be interesting to hear.
Rachel

[Gordon J Pownall]

Of course, you don't have to answer any of this, if you don't want. It would just be interesting to hear.
Rachel

Avoidance tactics on other threads as well - have a look here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=74805#post74805)..... :mad:

[The Pilgrim]

Thank you for enquiring.

I am a simple appreciator of beauty and the experience of dance.

The fatuous semi circle which precedes the learning of a set of moves is one of ceroc/MJ’s great lost opportunities.

If the connection between leader and follower was taught properly in the first instance - jerking, yanking – the cause of so many uncomfortable dances, and for some less fortunate – injuries, would be a phenomenon of the past.


----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[ChrisA]

If the connection between leader and follower was taught properly in the first instance - jerking, yanking – the cause of so many uncomfortable dances, and for some less fortunate – injuries, would be a phenomenon of the past.

If it was taught properly in the first instance, do you think many people would stay with MJ for long enough to learn it?

I think you might possibly mean "If the connection between leader and follower was learned properly in the first instance".

Chris

[The Pilgrim]

If it was taught properly in the first instance, do you think many people would stay with MJ for long enough to learn it?

Chris

Ironically, yes, I believe they would. Salsa, for example, is a more difficult genre to learn (footwork etc) yet is considerably more popular (worldwide).


----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[Andy McGregor]

Thank you for enquiring.

I am a simple appreciator of beauty and the experience of dance.


I don't think that the people who want to know who The Pilgrim is will be satisfied with this answer.

However, I think he/she is an asset to the debate and is even introducing new arguements and words never previously used to deride the semi-circle - fatuous! :rofl:

And, in this case, if find myself agreeing with him. It might be easier to learn MJ if it's taught simply in the first instance - but I think this simplicity shouldn't extend to teaching something which needs to be unlearnt later because it is bad for your dancing.

Maybe The Pilgrim is a Smurf but doesn't want the other Smurfs on the Forum to know :wink:

[Jive Brummie]

Haven't had a chance to read the entire thread, so apologise if this is repetition...

The reason for the semi circle is,

despite some people thinking that it is there purely for decoration...it is not. It's intended to be an aid for beginner males and females. Not only does it help let your partner know when to start dancing, i.e. 'the step back' but it's also there to indicate a specific beat. For example, if you're dancing to a faster track, you wouldn't really draw a huge, slow semi circle. It would be smaller and quicker.....

Hope this adds light to the debate.

James x x

[Mary]

I'm just coming into this thread late and have only read this last page, and with great interest.

My understanding of the Ceroc semi-circle is the same JB's - it's a useful tool for beginners. But is it necessary? My first lessons in MJ were before I had heard of Ceroc. The couple teaching always began with the simple tension excercise before progressing to the simple beginner moves. And, although no footwork is particularly involved, every aspect of each move was clearly illustrated and demonstrated so I was taught from the word go which foot to have my weight on which facilitated easier following. And I think the same went for the guys so, without realising it, they were always able to lead with the lady on the correct foot. I don't remember having a problem with picking up the beat or knowing when the moves were starting.

Very interested in The Pilgrim's contribution, even if it comes across as being slightly arrogant. Like Rachel, I am curious to know the background of the contributors authority. Sorry, I think I have expressed that a bit awkardly, but I guess what I am saying is that, although I am inclined to agree, I was a bit taken aback by the way The Pilgrim expresses him/herself and I am nosey!!!

M

[TheTramp]

Personally, I don't see the point of the semi-circle. It is designed as an aid for beginners, but it would be just as easy to teach them a little compression to start their dancing, rather than relying on a "visible" signal which is what the semi-circle usually is, and would possibly be a bit more useful in the long term. I don't see that putting many people off to be honest.

Having said that, I also don't really see it as a big deal either way...

Trampy

[Jive Brummie]

It's my opinion that the semi-circle thing is being blown out of all proportion a wee bit.... It is an aid to beginners and it does have a purpose.....for beginners, as outlined by the reasons I've written above.

I agree....to a certain extent that it is sometimes more visually appealing if it's dropped in favour of a slight push with the fingers of leader to the palm of the follower, but again, may I refer you to the fact that it's a beginners aid. Try teaching somebody who has never danced before...ever, about 'tension and compression' and stand back to admire the many blank looks you'll recieve.....through no fault of the beginner, but purely for the fact they have absolutely no idea what the hell you're on about.

The Pilgrim....I am open to suggestions. :whistle:

[Gus]

Personally, I don't see the point of the semi-circle. It is designed as an aid for beginners, but it would be just as easy to teach them a little compression to start their dancing, rather than relying on a "visible" signal which is what the semi-circle usually is, and would possibly be a bit more useful in the long term. I don't see that putting many people off to be honest.


Dunno ... you try teaching compression and 'lead and follow' to intermediates and see how far you get :whistle:

[Andy McGregor]

Dunno ... you try teaching compression and 'lead and follow' to intermediates and see how far you get :whistle:

This sounds like the voice of experience: how far did you get Gus? :devil:

[TheTramp]

Dunno ... you try teaching compression and 'lead and follow' to intermediates and see how far you get :whistle:
Ah. But maybe, if they got taught it right at the beginning, then it'd be easier for them to pick up?? It's a lot easier to pick something up at the beginning, rather than learn one way, then try to unlearn to learn another way. Not that there's anything wrong for most people the way that they do it of course....

Just a thought :na:

Trampy

[The Pilgrim]

The Pilgrim....I am open to suggestions. :whistle:

I favour a lean. By preceding all movement with a lean, you decrease the potential for false anticipation by your partner and build her confidence in your ability to lead. The amount of lean directly corresponds to how large or how small the step will be (depends on the music).

Leading and following is all done through that elusive thing called "connection". Professionals talk about making the three connections: with your partner, with the music, and with the floor. Connection is a magic that happens through the physical contact between two dancers and their common interpretation of the music that makes the two individuals dance as one unit. Eventually the leads get so subtle that it seems that just a thought carries the couple through a dance, in directions neither had thought of before.

Magic? No, just something that we wish we could do on every dance.

Have you ever been fortunate enough to dance with a real dancer?

...a woman with such wonderful connection that, without ever saying a word, you can have an entire conversation with her through your fingertips?

...a woman who will bring a huge smile to your face almost immediately, because you can "feel" that she's there and moving with you; not moving on her own or wrestling with you?

...a woman with who, using only one or two fingers as your entire connection, you can lead nearly ANYTHING and have it appear in her body as if she was reading your mind?

Those magic moments and feelings of connection are a big part of why I dance. (Of course when I dance with women who are that good, I tend to focus on all my faults, which suddenly become very evident to me :grin: )

----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[Emma]

I'll get my coat....:tears:

[filthycute]

Have you ever been fortunate enough to dance with a real dancer?

"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

Of course he has :wink: :rofl:

filthycute x x

[ChrisA]

The reason for the semi circle is,

Spot the CTA graduate :devil: :devil:

[Andy McGregor]

I'll get my coat....

.. you've pulled :devil:


Just couldn't resist :whistle:

[Tiggerbabe]

.. you've pulled :devil:

Shouldn't that be "leveraged" :whistle: :whistle:

[TheTramp]

Shouldn't that be "leveraged" :whistle: :whistle:
Or compressed??

Trampy

(10 more to go)

[Mary]

rin: )

----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

I cannot disagree with any of this post, and also agree with the poetic sentiment of it. So WHO IS THE PILGRIM??? I have my thoughts. What does anyone else think? :flower:

M

PS Couldn't work out how to snip, but I was referring to The Pilgrims last post. :rolleyes:

[Emma]

I think The Pilgrim is having lots of fun winding people up by not letting on who s/he is. :rolleyes:

PS Mary, you just add {b}~snip{/b} into the place where you deleted all the quote, but use square brackets instead of curly ones!

[Mary]

PS Mary, you just add {b}~snip{/b} into the place where you deleted all the quote, but use square brackets instead of curly ones!

OK thanks moderatrix - I THINK I've got that, now I just have to remember.
:whistle:

M

[MartinHarper]

I came to this thread looking for ideas on alternative ways to start dancing that aren't staring at each other waiting for the guy to move his hand... thanks folks, you've not let me down. :)


What happens if only the man steps back on the first beat. If this creates enough tension is the lady then ready to move forward on either foot for whatever follows?

So, a normal first move goes something like:
1. both step back.
2. both step forward, woman on man's right.
3. twist out.
4. etc

You're proposing changing this to start
1. man steps back, woman looks cool.

That'll certainly work, and there's nothing wrong with leading that way, I reckon, provided your partner can handle such unexpected things. You could also have neither partner stepping back, or one partner stepping back and the other forwards, etc, etc.

[Gadget]

I came to this thread looking for ideas on alternative ways to start dancing that aren't staring at each other waiting for the guy to move his hand...
Personally I start before we've found a place on the floor to dance - a simple walk, comic book tango, hand-in-hand stroll, arm over shoulder,...

I may also turn her into the space I want to claim as my dancing space for a starting move (assuming it's not occupied :whistle: ) Or if it's a complete begginer start with hands moving side to side with the beat and then continue one of the side movements into a move... and we're off.

[MartinHarper]

From elsewhere:


If a girl cranks my arm round in a semicircle for me during the class, it doesn't make it any more likely that I'll be gagging for a dance with her later :devil:

I confess that, like Chris, I dislike it when I get backlead a semi-circle during a class... but it doesn't really effect who I ask to dance, because it seems to be a class only thing. I've never had anyone attempt to backlead me a semi-circle during freestyle.

[ChrisA]

I confess that, like Chris, I dislike it when I get backlead a semi-circle during a class... but it doesn't really effect who I ask to dance, because it seems to be a class only thing. I've never had anyone attempt to backlead me a semi-circle during freestyle.

Let me attempt to categorise...

There are the ones that don't back-lead semicircles at all. They are usually beginners who haven't learned any bad habits yet. Sometimes, of course, they are very nice dancers. :flower:

Then there are the ones who have been dancing a while, and are expecting a semicircle, and I detect just a hint of one, instantly suppressed, when I don't do one.

And then there are the ones that crank my arm round in a determined way, with a large force if I'm foolish enough to resist. They also often tend to be the ones that yank me from side to side from some time even before the 5,6,7,8.

Now, note that I said


If a girl cranks my arm round
I was referring to the third category, and it's a very good indicator in my experience of the likelihood of getting seriously yanked in a freestyle dance.

They're the ones that injure me during freestyle, since not only do they backlead, they do it in a determined, forceful way, often pulling me off balance when they turn, and making it completely impossible to lead them in any direction except the one in which they're determined to go.

They are exclusively intermediates (any forceful beginners can easily be persuaded out of being so in a very short time), and have invariably been dancing for some time. I tend not to ask people in this category to dance, simply out of self-preservation.

Now, I would add that mostly I blame over-forceful blokes for originally creating the conditions where the ladies have to protect themselves, and so the ladies get into the habit of applying too much force themselves.

But it doesn't make it any nicer :tears:

Chris

[DavidB]

They also often tend to be the ones that yank me from side to side from some time even before the 5,6,7,8.Like the semicircle, the 'side to side' movement before the start of a class routine never used to happen.
Usually I'll just go with the flow. But if the lady takes that as a cue to backlead everything, I can recommend the following actions:
- Move side to side, but in the opposite direction
- Take a very light handhold, and as she moves her hand, just let her hand go
- Move her double or half speed

But if you do this, you had better be confident that you can lead the rest of the move properly...

[Andy McGregor]

Like DavidB, I use a few tactics to avoid having to go along with someone else's bad habits. To me it feels like it would if you thought it was a quickstep and they thought it should be a foxtrot. They're both still partner dances but they're different ones.

If my usual efforts to lead normally fail my most common tactic is to go along with it. Just relax, let them do their stuff without hurting me - it's a sort of shared lead situation - and it's only a few minutes. Then I heave a mental sigh of relief at the end of the track.

[baldrick]

Having made a great effort to learn to lead 'light', if my partner is determined to go her own way- she does, just without me. :what:

[johnthehappyguy]

Wow !

I had danced with a certain beginner lady on one previous occaison. The dance was ok, but nothing spectacular.

After a class, in freestyle, I asked her to dance, and once we got onto the dance floor I was just ready to start when she screamed


"GO HORSEY" :what: :confused: :sick: :eek:





johnthehappyguy:nice:

[jockey]

We do the semicircle motion here, too; and it's even "officially" called "The C for Ceroc" by many teachers. :)

I always use it to start, even though I've been dancing a while now. The primary reason is courtesy, as most of the ladies here have learned to follow the C as their lead-off, and I love partnering beginners and making them feel good about their dancing! So one of the alternative starts would be inappropriate in this situation.

However, all the teachers here discourage "bopping". Such behaviour includes: continually jiggling handholds in time to the beat (including repeatedly doing the "C"), constantly bobbing your head as you dance, marching with the feet instead of keeping them near the floor. These things make dancing a lot less stylish and reduce the clarity and quality of leads.
I got all the way down this thread writing notes and, blow me down, if this Aussie hasn't stolen my thunder and made all my points for me! Does one say 'good on ye, mate'? In Le Roc we do a semi circle and step back (G. Leclerc teaching and he's on the panel..). In Ceroc dancers make a meal of it and you come off like you've been ten pin bowling after a break of 10 years. (Not all of course.)
Anyway - hurrah! Now I know how to spell 'ronde'. Now, friend, is it 'rip curl' or 'rip cord'? :cheers: :yeah:

[jockey]

Ah. But maybe, if they got taught it right at the beginning, then it'd be easier for them to pick up?? It's a lot easier to pick something up at the beginning, rather than learn one way, then try to unlearn to learn another way. Not that there's anything wrong for most people the way that they do it of course....

Just a thought :na:

TrampyAand a good one..after all you are often meeting that person for the first time and if she (I'm assumed to be the leader) is to feel comfortable in starting the dance you should do what she is used to, namely, a small semicircle TTLeft (the 'When In Rome' lead).However, if you've got a worldbeater on your hands that's different.
But what about the other 'ceroc' thing - the way the follower circles the lead like the White Whale attempting to sink him in the everincreasing whirlpool (the Whirlpool Scenario) - you try a basic seducer and she's already past you and on to the next circuit... :devil:

[jockey]

But the semi-circle itself doesn't create tension. I can do the semi circle with a very floppy arm and no tension/connection with my partner.

The tension can be generated without the semi circle and just a push with the back of the fingers in the palm of the lady's hand, so long as the partners balance with a slight tensing of the muscles in the arm.

The semi circle fills in time before the tension is required and changes the aesthetics of the dance. What happens between moves when you dance a sequence? Where is the semi circle then?
Talking about 'the semi-circle' is missing the point: its semi-circle AND STEP BACK. And it only works because we are all used to it (the When in Rome Lead), viz., semicircle means step back AWAY from each other, THUS setting up the tension. We all know do it without thinking and therefore it does a job. But a better job of setting up tension is actually done by the pushaway you get in Lindy (say Andy and Rena and Nigel and Nina) as the person I'm quoting suggests but only better in practice if we were all taught it in the beginning (see Trampy elsewhere in this thread).

Trying to change after 5 years muscle memory under the bridge (how's that for a mixed metaphor..) is a pointless waste of time.

There's a good bit on this thread where it says you can start the dance as you are walking on with a bit of a latin-style walk or something a bit daft - but, heh! that's 5 years of muscle memory under the bridge gone down the plughole... :rofl:

[ChrisA]

Talking about 'the semi-circle' is missing the point

Yes :clap:


its (sic) semi-circle
No :tears:



STEP BACK.

Yes :clap:

[Andy McGregor]

It isn't even a semi-circle. From what I've observed it's a full circle ...

[MartinHarper]

I'm increasingly starting dances by leading a return. It seems to work more consistently to set up the initial tension than either a semi-circle, or a simple push. As a fringe benefit, I get a basic idea on the level of following ability I'm working with.

[tsh]

I learnt fairly quickly to start dancing in freestyle with an arm-jive, the semi-circle just didn't work for me outside of a class. I'm starting to experiment with other ways of initiating some tension (usually facilitated by an experienced follower providing a good starting point).

I don't think the semi-circle has ever been of much use to me, and I do sometimes use a push-back in a class when my partner forgets to step back.

The problem with the semi-circle is that it does not indicate if it's supposed to be a step in or a step back, and it merges into the general hand waving which is also being encouraged. Fewer signals, more emphasis leading would be my preference...

Sean

[baldrick]

Having made a great effort to learn to lead 'light', if my partner is determined to go her own way- she does, just without me. :what:
Having thought about it i wish to re-state my case in case I offended anybody by accident. If I'm just digging myself a bigger hole feel free to ignore this.

Leading light is great until I dance with someone who requires a little more tension to remain in contact with. I enjoy these dances, but sometimes am forgetful and loose contact. Leads to an 'Eek where'd she go' panic.

Sometimes I feel that too much is being expected of my puny frame. My lead then becomes progresively lighter, until my partner can no-longer dance on auto pilot and has to concentrate on what I'm doing in order to continue following. Its my coping tactic, now given firmly away, it protects me and my body without (hopefuly) giving insult or offence.

Anybody I offended by accident, sorry. If I'm going to do that it should be deliberate.

[Rachel]

Having thought about it i wish to re-state my case in case I offended anybody by accident. If I'm just digging myself a bigger hole feel free to ignore this.

Leading light is great until I dance with someone who requires a little more tension to remain in contact with. I enjoy these dances, but sometimes am forgetful and loose contact. Leads to an 'Eek where'd she go' panic.

Sometimes I feel that too much is being expected of my puny frame. My lead then becomes progresively lighter, until my partner can no-longer dance on auto pilot and has to concentrate on what I'm doing in order to continue following. Its my coping tactic, now given firmly away, it protects me and my body without (hopefuly) giving insult or offence.

Anybody I offended by accident, sorry. If I'm going to do that it should be deliberate. I can't see how anyone could be offended by this. It sounds absolutely right to me. Keep on with the light leading, please!

I have a similar defence when I feel men are holding on too tight - I deliberately and constantly try and lose contact throughout the dance. Or make contact with only their arm or wrist, rather than holding onto their hand.
Rachel

[BeeBee]

Having made a great effort to learn to lead 'light', if my partner is determined to go her own way- she does, just without me. :what:


Ahhhhhhhhhhh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight (penny dropping) :grin:

[baldrick]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight (penny dropping) :grin:
Now read the re-post and forgive me :flower:

[BeeBee]

Now read the re-post and forgive me :flower:

Nothing to forgive Balders! Hope you had a good birthday weekend, see you tomorrow for a jig round the floor . . . :clap: :hug:

Beebs

[Commis Chef]

His argument was that over the course of an evening, a lady might have anything up to 30 dances, and it could get boring to start every one with this Starter Step.


David

As a lady, I find I grit my teeth when I am started off with a circle especially when it is over exaggerated. When it is combined with a wide swinging action to the introduction music I want to run off the floor.
When I hold a man's hand ready to dance I prefer to feel a gentle push into my hand to which I can give reciprocal resistance. It gets the feeling of connection ready for the next move. I recognise what I consider a good dancer by the feel of this connection which you do not gain from the circle action.

[eastmanjohn]

. When it is combined with a wide swinging action to the introduction music I want to run off the floor.

At a recent ceroc class (I hadn't been to a ceroc venue for years) I found the side to side movement on the count 5,6,7,8 very distracting. Sometimes the movement had to be abruptly stopped as it obviously took you into the move in the wrong direction.

It was a bit like a 4 year old boy doing the longest run up possible before kicking a football, only to realise once he actually got to the ball that he had overestimated the distance, stopped and then completely mis-kicked it anyway!! Am I alone in this feeling? Is it meant to help the lead into the step back somehow?

Also, is the initial sway on the count of 5 to the left or the right, or is it as random as it appeared on the night?

[tsh]

Also, is the initial sway on the count of 5 to the left or the right, or is it as random as it appeared on the night?

It's random. This gets especially iritating when your partner starts watching the rest of the line to try and get the sway in phase with them.

I think I heard the teacher encourage wild side to side stepping as well recently, but I wasn't sure. This is slowly starting to get quite irritating, to the point when I am starting to actively disrupt the sway. Must see if there are any non ceroc venues local, and see if they're any better!

Sean

[MartinHarper]

Sometimes the movement had to be abruptly stopped as it obviously took you into the move in the wrong direction.

This, bizzarely, is one of the things I like. Because I have to sync the side-to-side movement into the first move of the routine, it gives me practice at leading the girl's weight to the right place at the right time in order to do the move I want to do. That's a valuable skill. Because I've not got it yet, I mess up often.

----

One slightly weird thought. Suppose my partner and I have our handhold high (shoulder height?) with elbows by our sides. Now, suppose I move the handhold down to waist level, while keeping my elbow in the same place. By virtue of the length of my forearm, that act is going to automatically generate a backwards push on my partner's hand, leading her to step back. This makes me wonder if the semi-circle is truly as disconnected from "proper" lead/follow as I previously thought.

[Gadget]

At a recent ceroc class (I hadn't been to a ceroc venue for years) I found the side to side movement on the count 5,6,7,8 very distracting. ...Am I alone in this feeling? Is it meant to help the lead into the step back somehow?
It's designed to help beginners actually move and instill some sense of rhythm. It also has the added advantage that everyone is counted in at the right time. The 'step back' os a completley seperate lead - it should be "five.." (hand to one side) "and" (hand in middle) "...six..." (hand to other side) "and" (hand in middle) "...seven..." (hand to first side) "and" (hand in middle) "...eight..." (hand to other side again) "and" (hand to middle) "back" (step back led)
These side to side movements should be done with a tilting of the hand and transfer of weight rather than a huge step and lead.

I think that it helps get movement started, allows you to listen to tracks and where/how the teacher counts you in. It's thumbs up from me on this one.


Also, is the initial sway on the count of 5 to the left or the right, or is it as random as it appeared on the night?
Yup; fairly random - I try to match the direction the teacher is going on stage - otherwise the beginner ladies get confused.

[Andy McGregor]

At a recent ceroc class (I hadn't been to a ceroc venue for years) I found the side to side movement on the count 5,6,7,8 very distracting. Sometimes the movement had to be abruptly stopped as it obviously took you into the move in the wrong direction.

This weird side-to-side movement seems to be the coundown to starting the routine being taught. IMHO the countdown to the start of the routine is to show the students the teacher's timing. But I've been to many Ceroc classes where this side-to-side movement is exaggerated and meaningless. And, if you're not in the right place it means you start the routine 2 beats away from the teacher - or, even worse, one beat away from the teacher's timing.

Let's not tell Ceroc how silly this side-to-side, five AND six AND seven AND eight is - us independent organisers need some advantage :wink:

[CJ]

of my puny frame.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

just noticed this: who is he kidding?!?!?!!?!!?!?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[tsh]

This, bizzarely, is one of the things I like. Because I have to sync the side-to-side movement into the first move of the routine, it gives me practice at leading the girl's weight to the right place at the right time in order to do the move I want to do. That's a valuable skill. Because I've not got it yet, I mess up often.

If your partner knows what to do, you're not leading. That is one of the reasons I find the over-exageration of an initial 'finding the beat' annoying.
The lindy classes I've started doing are explicitly teaching moves with variations (e.g. clockwise or ccw turn) so it's impossible for the follower to move without being lead. If we're not made to lead, we can't learn how to lead clearly.


It's designed to help beginners actually move and instill some sense of rhythm. It also has the added advantage that everyone is counted in at the right time.
...
I think that it helps get movement started, allows you to listen to tracks and where/how the teacher counts you in. It's thumbs up from me on this one.


Yes, some movement is good, but it doesn't have to be a 2ft step to each side with a big arcing had jesture EVERY time. I only lead this type of motion with a small number of beginners and certain music. It still happens most of the time. Who's leading???

Sean

[Lou]

At a recent ceroc class (I hadn't been to a ceroc venue for years) I found the side to side movement on the count 5,6,7,8 very distracting. Sometimes the movement had to be abruptly stopped as it obviously took you into the move in the wrong direction.
John, just out of idle curiousity, you understand, ;) but which venue did you go to? I found it very noticeable at Swindon. Just wondering if it was the same place....?

I thought it was absolutely horrible because it felt so ungainly, and I remember being so puzzled by it I posted about it at the time. :eek:

[Gadget]

Yes, some movement is good, but it doesn't have to be a 2ft step to each side with a big arcing had jesture EVERY time. I only lead this type of motion with a small number of beginners and certain music. It still happens most of the time. Who's leading???
If you're letting them take a 2ft step, then obviously not you :wink: Just because it's the introduction, you don't wait untill it's over before starting to lead - this is your opportunity to establish your dominance before the 'real' leading starts. If you waste it and let the lady lead it, then she is more likley to try and move through the move herself for the rest of the move rather than follow your lead. (in my experiance anyway)

[Dreadful Scathe]

Have you ever been fortunate enough to dance with a real dancer?


We only dance with stuffed animals up here, real dancers are a figment of our deranged minds :)



"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

Most people have to pay Franck money to get a signature at the end of each message, one way to dishonestly avoid that limitation is to put your signature directly in each message ;)

[Steven666]

More often that not, the semi circle is drawn for me. And if I'm lucky it goes the right way...

[tsh]

If you're letting them take a 2ft step, then obviously not you :wink: Just because it's the introduction, you don't wait untill it's over before starting to lead - this is your opportunity to establish your dominance before the 'real' leading starts. If you waste it and let the lady lead it, then she is more likley to try and move through the move herself for the rest of the move rather than follow your lead. (in my experiance anyway)

Just changed my vote on this thread... I now take the approach that if I am unable to establish a lead on the introduction, I don't lead. If it happens frequently in a class, I offer to follow - which usually gets some sort of a response...

Just realised, the best way to control excessive motion is to place the spare hand on a shoulder...

[Agente Secreto]

Shame there wasn't a choice in the poll that said - Have never done the semi-circle - think it totally superfluous!


At a recent ceroc class (I hadn't been to a ceroc venue for years) I found the side to side movement on the count 5,6,7,8 very distracting. Sometimes the movement had to be abruptly stopped as it obviously took you into the move in the wrong direction.

It is distracting - and more worrying is that the side to side step often comes with a 1/4 body twist so you've got to contend with all the hand action and the body action too.


These side to side movements should be done with a tilting of the hand and transfer of weight rather than a huge step and lead.
:yeah: I only count in using weight transfer - feet broadly shoulder width apart and with my LH or RH largely static so that I can feel what tension I'm getting from the follow from the outset. Then I find it easier to lead the step back by simply nudging into the follow's hand. I find that in some venues I'm simply ignored by ladies who to step and twist and then lead me in the semi-circle in a very determined way - not surprisingly they don't feature in my dances later in freestlye if I can help it:whistle:


I try to match the direction the teacher is going on stage - otherwise the beginner ladies get confused.
I don't. What I try and do is get the total focus of the follow on me - I'll even say to a newbie not to look at the teacher. The follow only needs to match the lead's motion and not the teacher's so best to teach them that from the start.


Let's not tell Ceroc how silly this side-to-side, five AND six AND seven AND eight is - us independent organisers need some advantage :wink:

:rofl::rofl:

[Andy McGregor]

Let's not tell Ceroc how silly this side-to-side, five AND six AND seven AND eight is - us independent organisers need some advantage :wink:


:rofl::rofl:I have changed my mind. I think that Ceroc are completely correct. As is every other teacher who teaches this giant circle to crank the ladies into action.

I'm afraid it's too late for me. I can't change. I'm doomed to keep getting the lady to step back by applying compression into the lady's hand in the direction I'd like them to travel. But I see no reason why Ceroc should change their winning formula. My message to Ceroc regarding semi-circles is "keep up the good work" :whistle:

[johnnyman]

I gave up using the semi-circle ages ago and was only following what the teacher (Janie Cronin @ The Leopard Lounge) was showing.

Often, I just lead a lady out onto a clear spot on the floor and lead her into a start off move, which could be anything in my book.

best
johnnyman

[Martin]

I see no reason why Ceroc should change their winning formula. My message to Ceroc regarding semi-circles is "keep up the good work" :whistle:

:yeah:

an old thread, but just jumping to the end... I think it is great for Ceroc to keep the semi-circle.
I think the bounce is also fab.

It gives us "non-Ceroc" peeps something to deliniate us from the "Ceroc model".

Although, for some strange reason, the semi-circle and the bounce are no longer taught in Aussie - but what do they know :na::really:

[Andy McGregor]

Although, for some strange reason, the semi-circle and the bounce are no longer taught in AussieI think this is an attempt to differentiate the Australian Ceroc dancer from the kangaroo - I gather the kangaroo is seen as vermin: when something bouncing up and down is spotted, some people start reaching for their shotguns :eek:

The UK scene is very different. For a start, we don't have any kangaroos. But the real reason they keep the semi-circle/bounce/over-rotate thing is because Ceroc in the UK like to have their classes in city centres: with the rise in knife crime there is a significant risk of being stabbed as you're walking back to your car. All that semi-circling and bouncing is self-defence as it makes you more of a moving target. When I see the semi-circle being performed I think of "wax on, wax off" from the movie "Karate Kid" - I think Ceroc is a bit like Tai Chi, you start learning it as a dance, but you become a martial artist - or do you end up with a shiny car, it's all a bit too confusing :wink:

It must be working because I've never heard of anyone being stabbed on their way home from a Ceroc night :innocent:

[dep]

.........It must be working because I've never heard of anyone being stabbed on their way home from a Ceroc night :rofl:

[Alan Doyle]

Once you move your partner's hand you're leading.

If you draw a circle with your hand you're leading your partner to do something which you didn't intend i.e. you want her to step back, so the lead should be gently push your hand forward at your partner's waist level to lead the lady to step back.

If you draw a semi-circle you're also loosing connection with your partner.

[Whitebeard]

Once you move your partner's hand you're leading.

If you draw a circle with your hand you're leading your partner to do something which you didn't intend i.e. you want her to step back, so the lead should be gently push your hand forward at your partner's waist level to lead the lady to step back.

I never use the semi-circle in freestyle, but do in a class situation to avoid disruption. (My view is that far too much is made of this largely symbolic gesture from both sides of the argument for or against.)


If you draw a semi-circle you're also loosing connection with your partner.

Ah, what you have to be able to do is to multi-task (something not a few men have problems with).

At the same time as you draw the semi-cicle your hand should be applying that forward pressure (not forwards movement) to which the follower will react with an equal pressure in the opposite direction. The hands thus will not move in a forward/backward direction, but the repulsive pressure at the hand connection leads both partners to step back and straighten their arms (not fully).

For most people this is probably not a natural reponse and must be taught and learned and refined over time.

[straycat]

If you draw a semi-circle you're also loosing connection with your partner.
What if you draw a toroidal dodecahedron with hyperbolic Euclidian interstices?

[Alan Doyle]

What if you draw a toroidal dodecahedron with hyperbolic Euclidian interstices?

I'd much rather eat doughnuts :popcorn: lol

[EricD]

I think I heard the teacher encourage wild side to side stepping as well recently, but I wasn't sure. This is slowly starting to get quite irritating, to the point when I am starting to actively disrupt the sway.

One approach is to transfer your weight from foot to foot at twice the frequency at which everyone else is swaying, i.e. at the full speed at which you will be dancing (assuming it's not an armjive or slow comb). :whistle:
If you isolate/dissociate/disassociate your hand (i.e. keep it still) you learn if your partner is sensitive to a visual 'lead'.
I think the sway teaches people to be flexible. They learn to fudge the footwork from swaying at a random phase and different frequency to whatever the move demands.
Using the faster footwork, on the other hand, might reduce the chances of dancing off-beat !:devil:

[David Bailey]

Who keeps on reviving these polls?

It's MartinHarper, isn't it... :eyebrow:

[Phil_dB]

Who keeps on reviving these polls?

It's MartinHarper, isn't it... :eyebrow:

I'll come clean!

Sorry! I didn't realise that voting would bump the thread up the top again!

When I come on here I like to read about dance stuff, - i'm not really here to chit-chat, - so I often search around previous topics. In fact there's loads of old ones I'd like to reply to, but don't, in fear of p*ssing people off :D

[David Bailey]

I'll come clean!

Sorry! I didn't realise that voting would bump the thread up the top again!

No worries - it's a bug in the software, is all.

I quite like the thread rcycling personally, it allows us to revisit some issues.

If it gets on my nerves too much, I'll just close the poll :D

[Gadget]

In fact there's loads of old ones I'd like to reply to, but don't, in fear of p*ssing people off :D
Resurrect away :D Sometimes it's better than starting a new thread that covers old ground. - not many folk would take offence at reviving a thread that has useful/interesting stuff in it.

{Much less offence than starting a new thread to chat about stuff that there are a million other threads discussing ;)}

[Neu Wien]

I would vote, but there's no option for "I'm a man and I've got no idea what you're all talking about so I don't think I've ever used the semi-circle but if I have I'm not aware of it!"

PS- I too like reading through old threads Phil, please do resurrect old ones you find interesting- I might too!

[DavidY]

I would vote, but there's no option for "I'm a man and I've got no idea what you're all talking about so I don't think I've ever used the semi-circle but if I have I'm not aware of it!" In a typical Ceroc Beginners' lesson in the UK, the standard script is that you start the step back by drawing a semi-circle with the joined hand. Some Ceroc teachers don't use this and I'd be surprised if very many non-Ceroc teachers use it.

This probably explains why you don't recognise it:

Although, for some strange reason, the semi-circle and the bounce are no longer taught in Aussie - but what do they know :na::really:I wouldn't use it in freestyle - the only time I did it this week was following instructions in the Beginners class.:whistle:

[martingold]

In a typical Ceroc Beginners' lesson in the UK, the standard script is that you start the step back by drawing a semi-circle with the joined hand. Some Ceroc teachers don't use this and I'd be surprised if very many non-Ceroc teachers use it.

I have never used it in freestyle however find muscle memory takes over when in a begiiners class (having done it for about 10 1/2 yrs ) so its really hard to retrain myself because our teacher doesnt use it at all

I had heard its being removed from ceroc altogether although i am not too sure how true this is

[StokeBloke]

I had heard its being removed from ceroc altogether although i am not too sure how true this is
Not before time too! When did you hear this Martin?

[martingold]

Not before time too! When did you hear this Martin?
couldnt agree more stokie
as i said our local teacher has stopped doing it now just does a push back before starting the move
i guess it was a couple of months back now but it was just a rumour

[Ascot Lady]

I was at a Ceroc venue a couple of months ago for a rare venture into a beginner's class & the teacher actually said she had just been "re-trained" not to do the semi-circle...so it's true

[timbp]

I would vote, but there's no option for "I'm a man and I've got no idea what you're all talking about so I don't think I've ever used the semi-circle but if I have I'm not aware of it!"

Just remember "semi-circle equals bad".
Officially it's no longer taught in Australia (Sydney*) (probably why you've not encountered it). But teachers who learned long ago will still use the semi-circle (and a very few will still teach it).

Question: When you go onto the dance floor with a partner, how do you indicate the start of the dance?

_________________


* I think this is true across Australia, but I may be wrong (yes, even I may be wrong).

[geoff332]

Question: When you go onto the dance floor with a partner, how do you indicate the start of the dance?Exactly the same way you initiate any movement: by leading. I often turn the actual walking onto the floor into part of the first movement by actively leading. In it's simplest form, raising my arm and leading the follow into a travelling return can work. The other common alternative is to draw her in to create compression and use that to lead a step back in the direction I want. Or perhaps draw her into a ballroom hold and start with a closed move. It largely depends on who I'm dancing with, the music and the mood I'm in.

[straycat]

Question: When you go onto the dance floor with a partner, how do you indicate the start of the dance?

Well - the smart-alec answer would be: "You lead it." :cool:

The slightly friendlier answer would be "You establish connection, then lead it"

One easy method - begin in jockey position, weight shift with your partner 'till ready, then lead when ready (establishing connection is easy in jockey, and thanks to the weight shifting, you'll know where your partner's weight is, making life much easier.) I often begin dances like this.

[timbp]

Well - the smart-alec answer would be: "You lead it." :cool:

So you're calling me a smart-alec?

From another point of view, you got the gold star for the right answer.

[Whitebeard]

I was at a Ceroc venue a couple of months ago for a rare venture into a beginner's class & the teacher actually said she had just been "re-trained" not to do the semi-circle...so it's true

I wonder if they might consider retraining the DJs too !! :innocent:

[Agente Secreto]

Well - the smart-alec answer would be: "You lead it." :cool:

The slightly friendlier answer would be "You establish connection, then lead it"

One easy method - begin in jockey position, weight shift with your partner 'till ready, then lead when ready (establishing connection is easy in jockey, and thanks to the weight shifting, you'll know where your partner's weight is, making life much easier.) I often begin dances like this.

So you take your partner onto the floor, climb on her back and move around a bit to establish connection:eek: then jump off and lead a move.

OK never heard of the jockey position, please explain for my education. Not that I find it difficult establshing connection mind I just feel the need to be better informed.

[Gadget]

Exactly the same way you initiate any movement: by leading. I often turn the actual walking onto the floor into part of the first movement by actively leading. In it's simplest form, raising my arm and leading the follow into a travelling return can work. The other common alternative is to draw her in to create compression and use that to lead a step back in the direction I want. Or perhaps draw her into a ballroom hold and start with a closed move. It largely depends on who I'm dancing with, the music and the mood I'm in.
How about in a class: 5,6,7,8,<push> ? Are you not relying on anticipation rather than any "lead" (Although I admit that very few actually use the semi-circle as a lead and just use it as a signal.)

[straycat]

OK never heard of the jockey position, please explain for my education. Not that I find it difficult establshing connection mind I just feel the need to be better informed.

Sorry - my bad. The starting position from this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCoZCoC9MHA). Pretty much like the first move position, and a standard starting position in Lindy.

[geoff332]

How about in a class: 5,6,7,8,<push> ? Are you not relying on anticipation rather than any "lead" (Although I admit that very few actually use the semi-circle as a lead and just use it as a signal.)No, not at all. I can hear the music and I lead the step back when I want them to step back (and on whichever foot I want). The lead is to apply pressure to their leading hand, which moves their body backwards. There's no anticipation involved at all; what I rely on is good following: frame and compression. If I don't get that, then I can work around it, but it doesn't work as nicely and augurs badly for the rest of the dance.

A signal requires the follow to interpret the signal. A lead physically moves the follow where you want to them to go. A signal only works if the follow knows the signal; a lead works if the follow knows the basic technique of following.

[martingold]

So you take your partner onto the floor, climb on her back and move around a bit to establish connection:eek: then jump off and lead a move.

waiting to see mr and mrs agent try this when i next see them i recon it will stop everyone on the dance floor in thier tracks :lol:



Question: When you go onto the dance floor with a partner, how do you indicate the start of the dance?
.
To be honest i dont have a standard start
it generally depends on the music and the person i am dancing with for example if i am staring with a beginner i will almost always count in just to help them If i am starting a blues dance with a good follow who i know well i will often start in close hold

[Whitebeard]

Many of us are arriving early these days in order to pick up the new moves introduced by Ceroc; some of which I have to say, with very little effort, are already enriching my dancing experience.

Tonight's beginner lesson was the first class taken by a newly qualified CTA teacher. Apart from noting how competent this young lady was, the most notable point I noticed was the complete absence of any mention of the semi-circle. Instead it was "push back", and this was demonstrated and pracitised at the start of the lesson.

So it seems that Ceroc has listened to the ridicule heaped upon this relic from the past, in this and other quarters, and consigned it to the trash can. We can only aplaud this move.

But is it just "push back"? For my own part I find that I precede the "push" back with a little "pull" - which I see as a prep to get a feel for the connection. I wonder if others notice this?

I fear some of the more established teachers may find it as hard to abandon the semi-circle as to smooth out that hand-bounce.

[philsmove]

.

But is it just "push back"? For my own part I find that I precede the "push" back with a little "pull" - which I see as a prep to get a feel for the connection. I wonder if others notice this?


Guilty as charged :wink:

I also think intermediate "bouncers" should be given a yellow card are forced to attend the new beginners lessons