Leaders following and followers leading

[MrB]

Hi,

I was wondering about how a leaders leading style is changed by knowing how to follow.

1) What effect learning to follow has on a leaders leading style. Are there things leaders (probably mainly men) changed because of the experience gained by then learning to follow. (Moves, methods, styles etc)

2) What followers (probably mainly women) do when leading that other leaders (men) don't do, because other leaders (men) have never followed.

Thanks,

Steve.

[Koshka]

Well I'd certainly say that I feel my dancing has improved from learning to lead. Though I only really do the classes or dance with my friend (as we have a wedding and want to show off a bit) don't generally freestyle as a lead.

As a lead I've learnt how bloody infuriating some follows can be when they anticipate moves or are very rigid, which I have then (I feel) transferred into my dancing as a follow. I think by learning the other role you learn to respect the challenges the other faces, for example as a follow it seems easy to get into some moves and that it should be a logical system of moves but when I actually try and lead them its really hard to get the woman to actually do what I want her to. Saying that often in classes I'm more likely to get the moves than some of the men as you can see/understand the move from both positions.

I also think quite a few guys really enjoy being a follow its nice to pretty much switch off and just have to concentrate on doing what you are told... not that that helps with the technical advantages

[StokeBloke]

When I first started dancing I wanted to do EVERYTHING. So I had a go learning to follow, but it was a bit half arsed to be honest. However I did learn how some of the moves I had learned felt from the other side. I realised that a couple of the combinations of moves I was leading (that felt great to me) were actually quite nasty when strung together. That may have had more to do with my poor skills as a follow though :sick:

I think that guys tend to hold their weight further back over their heels, where as ladies tend to dance more on the balls of their feet. Dancing on your toes tips your weight further forward and makes it easier to be led forward. I notice when I dance with guys who follow that they're much harder to 'get moving'. I think their weight being farther back, which is where you need it to lead, and this makes them feel heavier.

Do you need to learn to follow to be a good lead? I don't think so to be honest :flower:

[Koshka]

Dancing on your toes tips your weight further forward and makes it easier to be led forward. I

And far less likely to break your neck if wearing heels..

[Gav]

When I first started dancing I wanted to do EVERYTHING. So I had a go learning to follow, but it was a bit half arsed to be honest. However I did learn how some of the moves I had learned felt from the other side. I realised that a couple of the combinations of moves I was leading (that felt great to me) were actually quite nasty when strung together. That may have had more to do with my poor skills as a follow though :sick:

I had a go a little while back, mostly because DT wanted to lead in the class with us as a fixed couple.
DT did a lot better than I did :blush:. Whilst I just about managed it in the end, I couldn't see any point continuing. Following is cr4p anyway, I don't know why anyone would want to do it. :tears::tears::tears:

[Lory]

A couple of weeks ago I did a Tango workshop as a lead.

I think I did OK but the biggest thing I struggled with, was 'floorcraft' :eek:

I can honestly say, before this workshop, I had little or no appreciation of how difficult it was :blush:

I'd see a space and set off confidently :waycool: only to be interupted by another couple appearing from nowhere, right in the spot that was 'MINE' :tears:

It threw me, every time. So all in all, it was a very good lesson for me. Not just a lesson in learning but a lesson in appreciation!

I'm now in complete awe of those guys who lead me beautifully and make me feel so safe, that I can just relax in their capable arms, close my eyes and enjoy the music and the dance :drool: without fear of being trodden on or elbowed in the ribs! :worthy:

[philsmove]

When I stared tango, it was normal for men and women to both learn the basics of leading and following.

I discoved an advantage of this during a private lesson, the teacher lead me, imitating the way I led. An insight into, what it was like to "dance with myself" dramatically change the way I led

I think all men should learn, what it is like to be led

Being led my good women is wonderful, being led by a bad woman is divine

[Baruch]

I also think quite a few guys really enjoy being a follow its nice to pretty much switch off and just have to concentrate on doing what you are told...
That's not my experience. I'm not great at following, admittedly, because I don't get to do it all that often, but for me it involves a lot of concentration because I'm not used to being led. It involves a whole different set of skills to leading, so I can't "switch off".

That said, I do enjoy it, even though I'm probably very difficult to lead!

[RockHopper]

I think that guys tend to hold their weight further back over their heels...

Would you recommend that guys dance on the balls of their feet? Would they not be less grounded in that case?

[RockHopper]

I 've noticed that some girls who have learned to lead become inclined to back-lead when dancing as follows. Or maybe it's just the girls who are inclined to back-lead that tend to learn to lead.

[Moondancer]

I’m still very much a beginner leader, usually rotating in beginners and doing a fixed inter. My fixed partner is lovely to lead and is a huge help with everything, so pretty much any success in leading is credit to him - you know who you are, want to take a forum bow and let me rep you??? :hug:. Also, I find Paul's teaching at Pulse is very clear, and he does explain exactly why you need to do the parts of the lead, and what will be misconstrued if you do it differently, and so on, which helps enormously.

Generally, I think my dance partner and I have both found moves that feel nice from one side can feel awful from the other side. It's also given me a better understanding of the directional thing - because I lead slotted I find it very offputting when followers (I make no male/female distinction here) wander out of the slot, don't land their turns back where they started etc. Mehh!!


I suspect that the other comments I’m about to make probably wouldn’t apply to good male follows, and are probably all applicable to bad female follows, so I apologise in advance it this comes across as sexist, but from talking to other women who’ve been through this, I don’t think my experiences are that uncommon:

I’ve found several problems dancing with men which I haven’t found with women. Firstly, a lot of men seem to assume that being a good lead makes them a good follower. At a stage when a woman would describe herself as a beginner, a man will confidently offer himself up to you saying he can follow. Erm, humility issue!

The second problem I’ve found is when men recognise the start lead of moves, they can backlead. Men seem so much heavier than women to lead – not sure if that’s a weight issue or because they are used to physically directing a dance, but it makes them very difficult to divert or just plain lead at all, because they’ve already committed their greater weight to doing what they want to do…so you end up leading mostly beginner moves because that’s all they’ll let you lead and they recognise and perform them more accurately. I expect when I’m more experienced I will manage this situation better…but it makes me prefer successfully leading any random beginner woman than failing miserably with a chap who ‘can follow’. Basically, I don’t feel any satisfaction if all I’m doing is initiating a beginner move and it’s completed by my follower regardless of what I’m doing. What I find with beginner women is that they do predict familiar moves to some extent, but as soon as you lead something unfamiliar they realise they can’t, then they follow better. In the same situation the backleading men I've danced with have assumed the ‘something different’ is my mistake and have tended to do what they thought it ought to have been (and then told me how bad my lead was!)

The push and pull thing is noticeable too, for what I’ve found men want in the way of leading. For example, as a follower I would recognise a raised hand/finger above my head as some sort of signal to turn, and I don’t need much of a directional indicator if it is obvious from the previous move. However, the same man who might have just led me with a gentle whisper of a lead, as a follower will expect a screwdriver of a signal to turn in a particular direction. I assume that this is due to lesser following experience and is a common fault in some female followers as well, but it seems surprising to me that a man who wants a light follow doesn’t have any understanding of how that actually works from the other side. I do find beginner women need a very clear lead and not too light, but in my limited experience they still don’t need to be beaten around the head with it.

The main thing slowing down my leading progress is lack of practice - I would rather dance with men than women, but the majority of men who have offered themselves to me to follow have been diabolically-undercarriaged caravans. It’s discouraging to spend a whole dance having to physically sling some bloke around and only being able to lead beginner moves (because a yoyo opening WILL turn into a yoyo cos all 14 stone of him is yoyo-ing right now regardless!) while he tells you how rubbish your lead is. Confidence-wise, I would suggest to any woman learning to lead that it makes more sense to lead other women – they know what they’re doing, most prefer a lighter lead, they turn better, and they are used to dancing with beginner men. Even the beginner caravans (in my limited experience) are far more steerable and stay/can be put back on the slot better. My floorcraft isn’t too great at the moment, and if I’m having to think about leading and avoiding others, it helps me a huge amount to have someone who is as steerable and light as possible.

Speaking as a follower, I think I’ve only ever danced with a couple of dodgy women leaders – the rest have been very good indeed, they usually lead lightly (which I like), their timing is good, they don’t yank and they don’t lead uncomfortable moves, presumably because they know what it’s like from the other side. The downside is that I’d still rather dance with men, I’d much rather be led by someone taller than me, and I certainly don’t want to dance blues/seducers/drops with women. I only ever occasionally ask women to dance, and they are invariably ones who already know from the class that I am learning to lead.

I just view leading as a harmless bit of fun which I hope will improve my following and might keep myself and friends entertained at some time in the future when we’re a bit short of partners. I am now avoiding asking unknown men followers to dance until I have more experience under my belt – I have no agenda and would rather not lose my enjoyment of leading or inadvertently turn myself into a yanker, so I’ll work up to dancing with other men at a later date of my own choosing. :wink:

[ChrisB]

I’m still very much a beginner leader, usually rotating in beginners and doing a fixed inter. My fixed partner is lovely to lead and is a huge help with everything, so pretty much any success in leading is credit to him - you know who you are, want to take a forum bow and let me rep you??? :hug:. Also, I find Paul's teaching at Pulse is very clear, and he does explain exactly why you need to do the parts of the lead, and what will be misconstrued if you do it differently, and so on, which helps enormously.

Generally, I think my dance partner and I have both found moves that feel nice from one side can feel awful from the other side. It's also given me a better understanding of the directional thing - because I lead slotted I find it very offputting when followers (I make no male/female distinction here) wander out of the slot, don't land their turns back where they started etc. Mehh!!


I suspect that the other comments I’m about to make probably wouldn’t apply to good male follows, and are probably all applicable to bad female follows, so I apologise in advance it this comes across as sexist, but from talking to other women who’ve been through this, I don’t think my experiences are that uncommon:

I’ve found several problems dancing with men which I haven’t found with women. Firstly, a lot of men seem to assume that being a good lead makes them a good follower. At a stage when a woman would describe herself as a beginner, a man will confidently offer himself up to you saying he can follow. Erm, humility issue!

The second problem I’ve found is when men recognise the start lead of moves, they can backlead. Men seem so much heavier than women to lead – not sure if that’s a weight issue or because they are used to physically directing a dance, but it makes them very difficult to divert or just plain lead at all, because they’ve already committed their greater weight to doing what they want to do…so you end up leading mostly beginner moves because that’s all they’ll let you lead and they recognise and perform them more accurately. I expect when I’m more experienced I will manage this situation better…but it makes me prefer successfully leading any random beginner woman than failing miserably with a chap who ‘can follow’. Basically, I don’t feel any satisfaction if all I’m doing is initiating a beginner move and it’s completed by my follower regardless of what I’m doing. What I find with beginner women is that they do predict familiar moves to some extent, but as soon as you lead something unfamiliar they realise they can’t, then they follow better. In the same situation the backleading men I've danced with have assumed the ‘something different’ is my mistake and have tended to do what they thought it ought to have been (and then told me how bad my lead was!)

The push and pull thing is noticeable too, for what I’ve found men want in the way of leading. For example, as a follower I would recognise a raised hand/finger above my head as some sort of signal to turn, and I don’t need much of a directional indicator if it is obvious from the previous move. However, the same man who might have just led me with a gentle whisper of a lead, as a follower will expect a screwdriver of a signal to turn in a particular direction. I assume that this is due to lesser following experience and is a common fault in some female followers as well, but it seems surprising to me that a man who wants a light follow doesn’t have any understanding of how that actually works from the other side. I do find beginner women need a very clear lead and not too light, but in my limited experience they still don’t need to be beaten around the head with it.

The main thing slowing down my leading progress is lack of practice - I would rather dance with men than women, but the majority of men who have offered themselves to me to follow have been diabolically-undercarriaged caravans. It’s discouraging to spend a whole dance having to physically sling some bloke around and only being able to lead beginner moves (because a yoyo opening WILL turn into a yoyo cos all 14 stone of him is yoyo-ing right now regardless!) while he tells you how rubbish your lead is. Confidence-wise, I would suggest to any woman learning to lead that it makes more sense to lead other women – they know what they’re doing, most prefer a lighter lead, they turn better, and they are used to dancing with beginner men. Even the beginner caravans (in my limited experience) are far more steerable and stay/can be put back on the slot better. My floorcraft isn’t too great at the moment, and if I’m having to think about leading and avoiding others, it helps me a huge amount to have someone who is as steerable and light as possible.

Speaking as a follower, I think I’ve only ever danced with a couple of dodgy women leaders – the rest have been very good indeed, they usually lead lightly (which I like), their timing is good, they don’t yank and they don’t lead uncomfortable moves, presumably because they know what it’s like from the other side. The downside is that I’d still rather dance with men, I’d much rather be led by someone taller than me, and I certainly don’t want to dance blues/seducers/drops with women. I only ever occasionally ask women to dance, and they are invariably ones who already know from the class that I am learning to lead.

I just view leading as a harmless bit of fun which I hope will improve my following and might keep myself and friends entertained at some time in the future when we’re a bit short of partners. I am now avoiding asking unknown men followers to dance until I have more experience under my belt – I have no agenda and would rather not lose my enjoyment of leading or inadvertently turn myself into a yanker, so I’ll work up to dancing with other men at a later date of my own choosing. :wink:

:blush::hug: (better at backleading than the undercarriaged caravans :lol:)

[Moondancer]

:blush::hug: (better at backleading than the undercarriaged caravans :lol:)

Yes, but you mostly only backlead when I ask you to, or when in your excellent judgement you think you ought to...and also you shout "Drop! Drop!" at me near the end of a track, or you occasionally hiss "change hands!" at me mid-move in class, or.... :rofl::D

...What would I do without you???? :worthy:

[Jan in Notts]

I knew before even finishing your earlier note that your lovely follow must be Chris. :respect:

[Moondancer]

I knew before even finishing your earlier note that your lovely follow must be Chris. :respect:


Yes of course it is the lovely Chris! :friend: I'm guessing you haven't led him yet because you've been away from dancing for so long, but now you're back..?

You are a good role model for female leads, btw :worthy: Hope you'll let me pick your brains when we next see each other :flower:

[DundeeDancer]

1) What effect learning to follow has on a leaders leading style. Are there things leaders (probably mainly men) changed because of the experience gained by then learning to follow. (Moves, methods, styles etc)
I've only followed a couple of times but what I learned from it was that it is more important to keep the dance flowing smoothly rather than trying to impress with fancy moves.
Also I dropped a move which I used to enjoy doing as it just interrupts the dance flow to much, the in-out followed by hands on chest just seems to break the flow as the follower has to react and push off the leaders chest which seems to throw the follower more often than not. So I only do it now if I’m mucking about and having a laugh with someone.

[Gadget]

The times I have led men as beginner followers, they tend to be very strong in their intent once they get moving - guiding and re-directing momentum becomes more of a martial art where you are moving the follower rather than giving them directions and having them follow them.

A step up from that and they tend to have a reluctance to move their hips or keep their lower body under their upper body - as a lead, most movements originate from the upper body. As a follow, most movements rely on moving the lower body. They also find it hard to engage a proper frame - you don't need one to lead, so following becomes a reaction to the lead rather than a result of the lead.

Then as they get better and more responsive, I find that they tend to step too far and over-compensate in certain movements.

And then they are good follows. But I've never danced with a male follower who could come close to some of the best female followers. Self expression and flourishes from a male follower tend to look even camper than just dancing as a follower.

:respect: hats off to those leads that get good at following - I may be able to lead quite well, but I'm really bad at following (I tend to anticipate, then hi-jack :blush: ) Clueless is as good as a lot of female follows and about the best male follow I've led. Blair isn't that bad either.

I'll dance with anyone, so if any male follows want me to lead them, just ask :)

[Twirly]

Also I dropped a move which I used to enjoy doing as it just interrupts the dance flow to much, the in-out followed by hands on chest just seems to break the flow as the follower has to react and push off the leaders chest which seems to throw the follower more often than not. So I only do it now if I’m mucking about and having a laugh with someone.

I am very relieved to hear that - it's a move I loathe! :sick:

It doesn't happen very often, thanks heaven, but as a result I often miss what it's supposed to be and it's one of those moves that the follow needs to know how to respond. It was lead on me at the last Hammersmith, but the guy just left my hands hanging in mid-air in front of his chest and the lead totally disappeared leaving me :confused: He then verbally explained, I realised what he was on about, inwardly groaned, said "oh yes, that one, don't really like it" but, having "taught" me the move, he insisted on repeating it 4 or 5 times during the rest of the dance :tears:

so clearly, learning to follow is a worthwhile activity for leads :D when, as a follow learning to lead, I've gained enough competence to comment, I might have somthing to add from the other side...

[Phil_dB]

I've only done a couple of beginner lessons and freestyles as a follow, - but from my limited experience I think it definitely helps, - some of the little subtle details can make such a difference to how it feels to be lead, - but you'd never know how important some of the little things are until you've been on the receiving end, - it stands to reason that if know first hand how things feel from the other side, you can only improve as a result, - similar to giving (leading) and recieving (following) massage I guess (from a learning POV!).



I am very relieved to hear that - it's a move I loathe! :sick:

It doesn't happen very often, thanks heaven, but as a result I often miss what it's supposed to be and it's one of those moves that the follow needs to know how to respond. It was lead on me at the last Hammersmith, but the guy just left my hands hanging in mid-air in front of his chest and the lead totally disappeared leaving me :confused: He then verbally explained, I realised what he was on about, inwardly groaned, said "oh yes, that one, don't really like it" but, having "taught" me the move, he insisted on repeating it 4 or 5 times during the rest of the dance :tears:

so clearly, learning to follow is a worthwhile activity for leads :D when, as a follow learning to lead, I've gained enough competence to comment, I might have somthing to add from the other side...


I have known to do hands-on-chest once in a blue moon, - usually with a partner i'm comfortable with. The occasional times that I have done it, i've sometimes had a similar reaction (i'd say 50% success rate!), I think the lead really needs to PLACE her hands on his chest for the message to get through, the other day I've no idea why the move came into my head, but it did, I lead it, -my partner missed it, although she didnt' groan, she said "damn I missed my opportunity! Please do that one again!!" :D On reflection, I think it's a bit of a "I love myself move" though, so didn't bother!

[killingtime]

I'd say I've learnt some new things while being a follower. Sometimes how moves feel as a follower, that the lead mixing moves so you aren't constantly spinning is generally better than your head being in a constant dizzy state (though that can be fun sometimes) and a bunch of other small realizations that might change the way you lead.

The main reason I follow now though is because I enjoy it. I find the completely different experience it is to leading is refreshing.

[MrB]

Thanks for all the replies in info so far.


I realised that a couple of the combinations of moves I was leading (that felt great to me) were actually quite nasty when strung together. .


and a bunch of other small realizations that might change the way you lead.

Care to elaborate - as I have never followed, I was hoping for this sort of "insider" information.

[killingtime]

Care to elaborate - as I have never followed, I was hoping for this sort of "insider" information.

Yeah, that was bad of me. Sorry. In truth I think it's a whole bunch of stuff that made me think about ways I can improve many of which I've probably forgotten was even based on something I learned when following nor is it something that specifically was tied to lesson you can *only* learn from following.

As an example leads have given me a space to play in where it feels great and I questioned why that was (often based on a slight lead that indicates motion but gives me enough space to play with the connection) compared to leads that were the whole abrupt "halt and play" which just kinda felt like a couple of seconds of uncomfortable "silence" in the lead followed by my own "oh right, you want me to do something". It's something I could have probably reached just leading through gauging the reaction of what works when I'm leading it but following someone else doing it can bring that realization quicker.

You also find that things you assume are bad like repeating a move a few times in a dance turns out to not be a noticeable thing as a follower. Most followers can pick up on a lead's favourite moves after a few dances but I certainly don't pay anywhere near as much attention to what is being lead as a follower as that thinking, as a lead, of the fact I did a First Move four moves back and that my follower is probably going to be bored (I don't think that way anymore).

I can try thinking of a few more ways it's helped me, if you like, but like I said I don't think you can't learn these things if you only lead I just think you can sometimes learn them faster if you follow too.

[whitetiger1518]

As an example leads have given me a space to play in where it feels great and I questioned why that was (often based on a slight lead that indicates motion but gives me enough space to play with the connection) compared to leads that were the whole abrupt "halt and play" which just kinda felt like a couple of seconds of uncomfortable "silence" in the lead followed by my own "oh right, you want me to do something". It's something I could have probably reached just leading through gauging the reaction of what works when I'm leading it but following someone else doing it can bring that realization quicker.



:yeah: - a gentle indication on a move that you are followed by a repeat of the move after a bit of time to let the follower think some play moves up (where is the yeah - down there smilie?)



You also find that things you assume are bad like repeating a move a few times in a dance turns out to not be a noticeable thing as a follower. Most followers can pick up on a lead's favourite moves after a few dances but I certainly don't pay anywhere near as much attention to what is being lead as a follower as that thinking, as a lead, of the fact I did a First Move four moves back and that my follower is probably going to be bored (I don't think that way anymore).
.


For example if leads let me play and repeat say a First move, a couple of times, then I will then have a couple of plays with the timing and certain areas of the move that If given the chance I will use the next time it comes around.... please don't strand me with a play in my head without being able to use it.... That is almost more irritating than a move being overused!! (See my various thoughts on catapult elsewhere)

Cheers WT

PS when you back in Scotland next KT?