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Gadget
14th-July-2009, 03:16 PM
Is there anything new to say about MJ? Actually, that could be a whole new thread in itself!
This forum goes back a long time - lots of questions have been asked and answered... Is there anything new? :confused:

Magic Hans
14th-July-2009, 03:58 PM
This forum goes back a long time - lots of questions have been asked and answered... Is there anything new? :confused:

Nope!! ... It's all been asked now .... might as well close it all down.


Whilst we're at it, I'm sure that everything's been invented now too .... can we close the Patent Office too?
:na:

Double Trouble
14th-July-2009, 04:12 PM
there anything new?

oh, oh... I bumped into Phil and Ferm from This Morning on the South Bank yesterday morning! They were doing an outside broadcast in a caravan!

Ok, I know this isn't dance related, but I nearly pissed myself with excitement and just had to share! :D

Sporty Jeff
14th-July-2009, 04:23 PM
[quote=Double Trouble;553805]oh, oh... I bumped into Phil and Ferm from This Morning on the South Bank yesterday morning! They were doing an outside broadcast in a caravan!

Yes I love caravans too!:wink:

DavidB
14th-July-2009, 04:47 PM
Is there anything new?
A few things I've been thinking about

Timing of leads - building on from expectation vs anticipation. Is there an equivalent of 'resonant frequency', where a light lead at the right time is far more effective than a stronger lead at the wrong time. More importantly, what happens if this frequency is out of sync with the music, or even a different frequency.

Is it harder to spin when you are heavier (and therefore have more friction between you and the ground). Or is is just simply that I can't spin.

Why does MJ still feel better than it looks?

Characterisation of the music.

straycat
14th-July-2009, 05:00 PM
Is it harder to spin when you are heavier (and therefore have more friction between you and the ground). Or is is just simply that I can't spin.

A few factoids.

I've been trying to learn to spin for around twenty years.
Ten years ago, I had had little success.
Today, I can spin much better than I could ten years ago.
I am a lot heavier than I was ten years ago.
It is quite possible that none of these facts are related.


(I really want to get my teeth into your timing comment, but I don't think I have time to do it justice this afternoon. Maybe tomorrow)

Rachel
14th-July-2009, 05:23 PM
A few things I've been thinking about

Timing of leads - building on from expectation vs anticipation. Is there an equivalent of 'resonant frequency', where a light lead at the right time is far more effective than a stronger lead at the wrong time. More importantly, what happens if this frequency is out of sync with the music, or even a different frequency. ...Christ, David - I just have to wish for your return and there you appear! The only problem now is understanding your posts. :wink:
R.

straycat
15th-July-2009, 12:46 PM
Timing of leads - building on from expectation vs anticipation. Is there an equivalent of 'resonant frequency', where a light lead at the right time is far more effective than a stronger lead at the wrong time. More importantly, what happens if this frequency is out of sync with the music, or even a different frequency.

I suspect this is going to be one of those ones where I feel I know what you're talking about, but you're actually talking about something quite different. I'll assume I know what you're talking about ;)
Wouldn't such a 'resonant frequency' depend very much on your partner, rather than on the music? It seems obvious (to me) that a light lead at the right time is going to be the more effective option - the trick is judging the 'right time', or finessing it so that it occurs when you want it to. Which will depend on your partner, her movements and her responses to your lead.

Simple example: right to right handhold. prep a spin by turning your partner a little anti-clockwise, spin her clockwise. Easy enough. You could quite easily do this by starting the prep on 1, then pushing her round with a powerful lead on 2, and it would work.

A different way of looking at it was summed up by a martial arts friend of mine who was talking about fighting techniques - the philosophy he subscribes to is 'Listen, Follow, Change'.
'Listen' to what your opponent is doing (with your body, not your ears :whistle:)
'Follow' their movement.
'Change' that movement (to him, that change seems to involve throwing them against walls, floors and on, but I think that in this context it can involve a little less drama)

Applying it to said example, after the prep, you 'listen' to get a feel for your partner's direction / speed / power of movement, 'follow' it, then change it by gently absorbing that momentum, and redirecting it back the other way to get a spin.

This probably sounds like a ridiculously overblown and unnecessary analysis of a perfectly simple move... but the second method, done well, results in a much much smoother, gentler and more energy-efficient lead.

The 'resonance' is in the timing of the absorbtion / redirection - and that dynamic will change from partner to partner.

Or did you mean something else entirely?


Why does MJ still feel better than it looks?
Lack of basic technique in the dance?


Characterisation of the music.
Not completely clear what you mean here.

stewart38
15th-July-2009, 01:03 PM
How about being happy with the moves you know and not feeling guilty about not wanting to learn anything new.

Can you share that on a forum or should we all try and 'get better'

straycat
15th-July-2009, 01:30 PM
How about being happy with the moves you know and not feeling guilty about not wanting to learn anything new.

Can you share that on a forum or should we all try and 'get better'

Nothing wrong with that, in my book. If I could take that approach, I'd probably be much happier with my dancing.... but we all have different things driving us, and personally I love learning, and I always want to improve my dancing.

However - and this is probably going to sound pedantic, but to me, it's a huge distinction - I don't equate getting better with learning more moves. I equate getting better with improving my technique - that's what I find the most rewarding.

Double Trouble
15th-July-2009, 02:02 PM
Why does MJ still feel better than it looks?

That's an easy one...

MJ is like sex...only good looking, fit, sexy people look good when they are doing it, the rest of us mere mortals look like oompa loompa's on crack. :sick:

Twirly
15th-July-2009, 02:34 PM
That's an easy one...

MJ is like sex...only good looking, fit, sexy people look good when they are doing it, the rest of us mere mortals look like oompa loompa's on crack. :sick:

:lol:

And sad to say, I agree! Was thinking about this whilst I was out dancing last night. Admittedly, some basic dance technique does help the oompa loompa's not look quite so bad.

MJ as taught by Ceroc (which is what I have experience of) is about learning moves. There is very little technique taught, and even less about things like posture and precision. A move is taught in class, the class repeats it a few times, then goes off and “dances” it with no concept of how it actually looks, just how it feels.

Contrast that to other forms of dance, which are frequently taught in front of floor to ceiling mirrors – can you imagine the trauma that would cause at your average MJ class! :eek: :rofl: I’m thinking here of my (long ago) experience of jazz dance and ballet. You were taught to stand properly, how to hold your head, how to shape your arm, how to point your toe. How to structure your whole body to make it look as good as possible. And then you were taught to move. Each element of that movement and the shape you created with it would be broken down. Not only would you watch the teacher do it, and watch yourself in the mirror trying to replicate it, the teacher would then come around and pull you into the correct position so you could see how it felt to do it properly. And the movements are precise and controlled – this is almost completely lacking in much of MJ, and isn’t even taught as a concept. I try to apply it to my dancing because of what I’ve learnt in the past, but I simply don’t have the control I did due to age and the fact that I’m not doing a class every day.

Now I am not suggesting that MJ adopt this model, but it might go some way to explaining why some dances/dancers look a lot better than MJ. From my handful of AT classes, there is an element of this going on there too – less detailed, and in the class I was in I was drilled less, but you are taught how to point your foot whilst walking, where to place your hand on your partner’s shoulder, how to walk, etc and if you’re not doing it right, the teacher will come and correct you. Am sure the more experienced could elaborate, but the dance is broken down in more detail. I’ve never been corrected in MJ once without asking for it. Maybe someone else can confirm what happens in ballroom or other dance styles, but I would expect the same kind of detailed analysis and requirements for control to be present.

MJ is fun, relaxed and it’s not pretentious. But it’s also relatively uncontrolled and undisciplined compared to other dances. Am not too sure that you could get the discipline in without losing the fun… (stands by for jokes about :whip:)

bigdjiver
15th-July-2009, 02:56 PM
... Timing of leads - building on from expectation vs anticipation. Is there an equivalent of 'resonant frequency', where a light lead at the right time is far more effective than a stronger lead at the wrong time...There are better words than "resonant frequency" for the effect in electronics, but I cannot remember what they are. :blush: and in Judo, but I never learned those.


...More importantly, what happens if this frequency is out of sync with the music, or even a different frequency...As you know it is possible to block a lady with minimal force, at the right time, even if she has not been trained to expect it. I suspect it is on a par with hitting a ball with a bat. It is possible to teach the basics and the concept, but being able to do it is down to experience and practise.


...Why does MJ still feel better than it looks?...
I have just spent some time looking at some clips of a class. I was saddened to see how bad I looked, and surprised to see how disjointed some others looked. Lots of little breaks in the dance where partners were reviewing what just went wrong, learning as they danced. What did not surprise me at all was how happy we all were.

The clips did support what others have said. If you want to be a dance professional, or look like a dance professional, you may be better off not learning MJ. However if you want to enjoy dancing and learn whilst you are enjoying yourself, I have found no better way.


...Characterisation of the music...One of the great, and totally unexpected, joys MJ has brought me is that I can really enjoy dancing to Latin music and Tango without ever had a lesson in either. Even more unexpectedly, and beyond my imaginings, is that my partner can enjoy it too.

Rachel
15th-July-2009, 03:13 PM
... Applying it to said example, after the prep, you 'listen' to get a feel for your partner's direction / speed / power of movement, 'follow' it, then change it by gently absorbing that momentum, and redirecting it back the other way to get a spin....Love it! Can I steal that quote, please?


How about being happy with the moves you know and not feeling guilty about not wanting to learn anything new.There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, IMO, unless:
- you think that you absolutely know it all
- you still do classes but only for the purpose of showing off to your partner how good you are by doing 'your' version of the move, ahead of the rest of the class, rather than what's being taught.


I’m thinking here of my (long ago) experience of jazz dance and ballet. You were taught to stand properly, how to hold your head, how to shape your arm, how to point your toe. How to structure your whole body to make it look as good as possible. And then you were taught to move. Each element of that movement and the shape you created with it would be broken down. Not only would you watch the teacher do it, and watch yourself in the mirror trying to replicate it, the teacher would then come around and pull you into the correct position so you could see how it felt to do it properly. ...

... MJ is fun, relaxed and it’s not pretentious. But it’s also relatively uncontrolled and undisciplined compared to other dances. Am not too sure that you could get the discipline in without losing the fun… (stands by for jokes about :whip:)Agree completely! Although Marc has jumped off the stage several times during a class to go and correct people's positions - much to their surprise.

Rachel

straycat
15th-July-2009, 03:24 PM
Love it! Can I steal that quote, please?

Be my guest! Not that it was really my quote in the first place...

geoff332
15th-July-2009, 04:54 PM
Timing of leads - building on from expectation vs anticipation. Is there an equivalent of 'resonant frequency', where a light lead at the right time is far more effective than a stronger lead at the wrong time. More importantly, what happens if this frequency is out of sync with the music, or even a different frequency.It really depends on what you define as the lead. In my view, there are a whole lot of elements to the lead, which vary, but the lead itself is very near to continuous. For a simple travelling return, we step back and create tension. I lead the follow forward, giving flight. I raise my arm and invite her to turn under, providing direction. As she travels and turns I keep my leading hand over her head. When she gets to the end of the turn and faces me, she should give me compression which I then use to step back into tension read for the next movement.

All of this is leading... getting each part at the right time is really important (and the exact timing depends on the move, the follow, the music etc). As a rule, I find the best follows almost effortless to lead if the timing of my lead is right (that is, all the energy of the movement is provided by the tension/compression between the two partners). If either of us gets it wrong, I feel the lead become a lot harder: I have to provide the energy for the movement from my muscles.

Is it harder to spin when you are heavier (and therefore have more friction between you and the ground). Or is is just simply that I can't spin.Everyone can improve spinning with practice. Some people do need more practice than others. As I've said repeatedly, one of the biggest differences between Ceroc in the UK and Ceroc in NZ is at the start of every class in NZ they have a short drill that includes spinning and finding the beat to music. The whole drill takes about 5 minutes and has the net effect of making the average punter in NZ significantly better at these two basic dance skills.

...a ridiculously overblown and unnecessary analysis of a perfectly simple move...I find this sort of analysis is really useful. Understanding what's going on inside a move is reasonably important, particularly if you want to take yourself beyond the things that you feel naturally comfortable doing.


Why does MJ still feel better than it looks?Lack of basic technique in the dance?


MJ is like sex...only good looking, fit, sexy people look good when they are doing it, the rest of us mere mortals look like oompa loompa's on crack.And sad to say, I agree! Was thinking about this whilst I was out dancing last night. Admittedly, some basic dance technique does help the oompa loompa's not look quite so bad.It's amazing how much better someone's dancing looks if they straighten their spine, roll their shoulders back and stop sticking their butt out; that gives you a good frame. Then there's controlling your balance and weight (ie keeping your weight over your feet, not the amount of weight you have). That links into smaller steps, less reaching, staying closer to your partner. Perhaps it's worth thinking about leading from the body, rather than waving your hands all over the place. Learning how to spin properly. All of this is basic partner dancing technique, and nothing to do with body size/shape/oompa loompaness.

Admittedly someone with a svelte shape would look better than I would if they have good technique; but I am pretty sure I look better on the dance floor than the hottest guy around who slouches forward and stick their butt out. Equally, I know it feels much better for me when I'm dancing that way and, based on the comments I've heard, it feels much better for my partner.

Personally, I find the hand jerking up and down both unattractive and unappealing, but some people seem to like it (I am still talking about dancing here).

MJ as taught by Ceroc (which is what I have experience of) is about learning moves. There is very little technique taught, and even less about things like posture and precision.That's ceroc's wings of wax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus). By not teaching that stuff, they make the dance far more appealing to novices, who generally seem to assume that sort of stuff doesn't matter. Unfortunately, it also severely limits the progress one can make: I don't know of a single good dancer who doesn't have very good technique; without it, your wings melt. If you've learned dancing sans technique, then you often need to go back and unlearn a whole raft of bad habits before you can relearn and then progress on.

I try to apply it to my dancing because of what I’ve learnt in the past, but I simply don’t have the control I did due to age and the fact that I’m not doing a class every day.It'll show. Even if your skills have slipped (I know mine have, quite badly), the basics stick with you and it makes a huge difference. Right from my first ceroc class, people realised that I'd done ballroom. The silly thing is, it's actually pretty easy and makes an almost incomparable difference in your dancing...

But it’s also relatively uncontrolled and undisciplined compared to other dances. Am not too sure that you could get the discipline in without losing the fun…I think it can be incorporated, without robbing ceroc of the fun. If I've more time later, I might put some of those ideas down... alternatively, I may go dancing.

Alan Doyle
15th-July-2009, 05:14 PM
It's amazing how much better someone's dancing looks if they straighten their spine, roll their shoulders back and stop sticking their butt out; that gives you a good frame. Then there's controlling your balance and weight (ie keeping your weight over your feet, not the amount of weight you have). That links into smaller steps, less reaching, staying closer to your partner. Perhaps it's worth thinking about leading from the body, rather than waving your hands all over the place. Learning how to spin properly. All of this is basic partner dancing technique, and nothing to do with body size/shape/oompa loompaness.


:yeah:

whitetiger1518
30th-July-2009, 10:37 AM
Just my tuppence worth.

Apart from my spins (which if they are "together" something else falls apart:tears:), I love musicality, and I would love to learn more...

I often hear a phrase and can't act on it, either because my lead has me in the middle of another move, or because I have the position and time to do so, but can't think of a move (wriggle, body roll, pose etc etc) to use. - So I would love to build up a mental library of these styling type of moves - so whenever I hear a phrase I want to style, and I am in a position to take advantage of it, I can.

WT

bigdjiver
30th-July-2009, 11:06 AM
Just my tuppence worth.

Apart from my spins (which if they are "together" something else falls apart:tears:), I love musicality, and I would love to learn more...

I often hear a phrase and can't act on it, either because my lead has me in the middle of another move, or because I have the position and time to do so, but can't think of a move (wriggle, body roll, pose etc etc) to use. - So I would love to build up a mental library of these styling type of moves - so whenever I hear a phrase I want to style, and I am in a position to take advantage of it, I can.

WTAs a lead it annoys me when my partner tries to "do her thing" and I am too slow to react and break it up. I know I am supposed to be able to predict when to give her space, but too often it is beyond me. Even a tiny tap of a finger as a signal would be a help (I know, signals are evil ...) Maybe it is as simple as looking at her at the right moment, instead of scanning the surroundings for where it is safe to put her next.

Meanwhile my twitter research is pulling me in all sorts of directions, including this clip of how do to some Beyonce styling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcCQwImNd3c

whitetiger1518
30th-July-2009, 11:38 AM
As a lead it annoys me when my partner tries to "do her thing" and I am too slow to react and break it up. I know I am supposed to be able to predict when to give her space, but too often it is beyond me. Even a tiny tap of a finger as a signal would be a help (I know, signals are evil ...) Maybe it is as simple as looking at her at the right moment, instead of scanning the surroundings for where it is safe to put her next.


Sorry if this is the effect I am having. I certainly don't want to break your flow, but I tend to look at better dancers than me, and wish I could style in a similar vein... If in order to not break the lead's concentration needs a signal then I am quite willing to learn it or whatever else I need to know..

An example that I have used elsewhere is the catapult... Sometimes if I am not spinning well (for whatever reason) I find lots of leads on back to back tracks give me the catapult several times each :tears:

I would be fine with one or two catapults, but any more than that I do get a bit dizzy, so I would love to use the music / styling to give myself a bit of space to recover...

Drathzel gave me a couple of plays that don't go down too badly (particularly in the Blues room), but being able to use them in the ordinary room is not so easy.. If there is a signal or way to do this officially then I am 1st in the queue to learn.

I would hate to alienate any of the leaders who put up with me. :worthy:

Whitetiger

geoff332
30th-July-2009, 11:48 AM
As a lead it annoys me when my partner tries to "do her thing" and I am too slow to react and break it up. I know I am supposed to be able to predict when to give her space, but too often it is beyond me. Even a tiny tap of a finger as a signal would be a help (I know, signals are evil ...) Maybe it is as simple as looking at her at the right moment, instead of scanning the surroundings for where it is safe to put her next.The essence of partner dancing is to allow both partners to "do their thing" while still dancing together.

The way I've been taught is that when there's just connection, the follow can improvise to her heart's content. The indication that she's finished is when she provides compression back into the lead. Similarly, the lead can provide compression to indicate that the current movements over and it's time to get on with something else. If you agree, then you reciprocate the compression. When you have either compression or tension, then there's far less room for improvisation.

Of course that's not taught in ceroc classes and at any venue I've been to only a very small number of dancers actually do this (and those that try to often do it poorly - I'd put myself in that category). When it works, I've found it far more fluid and connected than using signals; it both looks better and feels better. When it's not there, I tend to rely on the more subtle indications - like trying to feel the weight change and watching her out of the corner of my eye. Or the occasional signal.

philsmove
30th-July-2009, 12:12 PM
The essence of partner dancing is to allow both partners to "do their thing" while still dancing together.

The way I've been taught is that when there's just connection, .......
Of course that's not taught in ceroc classes and at any venue I've been to .

:yeah:

But why is this:confused:
One of the first things you will be taught, at any decent Tango class, is the connection and giving your partner time "to do her thing"

I suspect the reason is, its a very difficult thing to teach/ learn and can only be "understood" when dancing with a partner who is "better" than you

the Ceroc ethos is getting you to dance and enjoy your self quickly , nothing wrong with this , but as there are only two levels, beginners and intermediates , it can be difficult to move to another level

bigdjiver
30th-July-2009, 01:31 PM
Sorry if this is the effect I am having. I certainly don't want to break your flow, but I tend to look at better dancers than me, and wish I could style in a similar vein... If in order to not break the lead's concentration needs a signal then I am quite willing to learn it or whatever else I need to know...I have this problem because I am not a good enough lead for more advanced dancers. I dance too much with beginners and a large variety of partners. I am sure if I danced more regularly with the better dancers I would improve.


An example that I have used elsewhere is the catapult... Sometimes if I am not spinning well (for whatever reason) I find lots of leads on back to back tracks give me the catapult several times each :tears: I would be fine with one or two catapults, but any more than that I do get a bit dizzy, so I would love to use the music / styling to give myself a bit of space to recover...Steal - instead of spinning all the way around stop facing away from partner and put your hands behind you. I think you will find that just once on the receiving end of a catapult will change their attitude.



Drathzel gave me a couple of plays that don't go down too badly (particularly in the Blues room), but being able to use them in the ordinary room is not so easy.. If there is a signal or way to do this officially then I am 1st in the queue to learn.Instead of taking an offered hand start to do your own thing. If it needs the guy as a prop then offer a hand when you are obviously not asking to be led.


I would hate to alienate any of the leaders who put up with me. :worthy:

WhitetigerSometimes a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta ...

Gadget
30th-July-2009, 01:40 PM
...I find lots of leads on back to back tracks give me the catapult several times each :tears:

I would be fine with one or two catapults, but any more than that I do get a bit dizzy, so I would love to use the music / styling to give myself a bit of space to recover...
Dahling, the catapult and the wrap are the only 'basic' moves that the left hand can be collected with ease; and the "wrap" is an intermediate move. The Catapult is also one of the easiest moves for the followers to hi-jack... should you be that way inclined :wink:


But why is this:confused:
One of the first things you will be taught, at any decent Tango class, is the connection and giving your partner time "to do her thing"
I suspect that your explanation is only part of it - In Tango, almost every step is a pose or drama point. In MJ we tend to wait for breaks or changes in the music to give the followers a pose or drama point: I think that musicality may be another facet.

It may also be that any beginner (or even a lot of intermediate dancers) when faced with an open space in the lead to do something, look blankly with confusion and say "yea - what you want me to do?".

Another reason may be that if you teach the followers to fill in the spaces in the lead with styling that there becomes confusion on what is a space, when & how to lead it, when & how to pick up the lead again, ... etc. I think that beginners have enough to cope with in just learning to lead and follow without this additional blurring of the lines.

bigdjiver
30th-July-2009, 01:43 PM
The essence of partner dancing is to allow both partners to "do their thing" while still dancing together.

The way I've been taught is that when there's just connection, the follow can improvise to her heart's content. ..


:yeah:

But why is this:confused:
One of the first things you will be taught, at any decent Tango class, is the connection and giving your partner time "to do her thing"...Metaphorically Ceroc starts with a house of straw, and moves the leader up to a house of sticks. Leader and partner dance mindless of the rain whilst in other dance forms they are rain-sodden ditches establishing the foundations for a house of brick.

I still meet partners at Ceroc that have moved on to Tango or other dance forms, it must be doing something right.

geoff332
30th-July-2009, 01:54 PM
But why is this:confused:I think you answered your own question...


One of the first things you will be taught, at any decent Tango class, is the connection and giving your partner time "to do her thing"I learnt it first in ballroom and have since had it retaught in modern jive. One thing that makes it a little harder in open dances is the hold. In tango and ballroom, you simply have more connection through the closed hold and you very rarely break that as a beginner. In modern jive, the starting position is to maintain connection through one hand, which I found quite a bit harder to get.

I suspect the reason is, its a very difficult thing to teach/ learn and can only be "understood" when dancing with a partner who is "better" than youIt's certainly tricky to learn at the start, but I wouldn't call this advanced technique of any sort (there are advanced techniques that build on this foundation, which can't be done without the idea of lead and follow). I'm not sure you need to dance with an advanced dancer to get it; there are basic exercises that can help get the feel of it quite quickly.

Also, you can dance ceroc adequately without learning proper lead and follow. This is evidenced by the fact that thousands of people do so every night.

the Ceroc ethos is getting you to dance and enjoy your self quickly , nothing wrong with this , but as there are only two levels, beginners and intermediates , it can be difficult to move to another levelThere are a lot of reasons for it. I've had dance teachers go through a class and physically adjust people's posture many times. But that's just not possible in a typical ceroc class. Working through the nuances of connection with a hundred people is tricky; I seen teachers do it well, but they've always been very special teachers. Putting this stuff in at the beginners class would intimidate many people (especially if it's not done extremely well), which is a major problem for ceroc.

I'd like to see it taught and taught properly in the intermediate class (and I think it can be done without making the classes seem too hard - for teacher or punter). But I doubt that will happen on a wide scale.

geoff332
30th-July-2009, 01:59 PM
Metaphorically Ceroc starts with a house of straw, and moves the leader up to a house of sticks. Leader and partner dance mindless of the rain whilst in other dance forms they are rain-sodden ditches establishing the foundations for a house of brick.And a year later, the other dancers have a nice little duplex, while the cerocers are still in their house of sticks.

Although I'm not sure they actually get to the sticks stage; the majority just keep throwing piling up straw and more closely resemble a haystack than a house. And after a protracted period of rain, it will start to smell a little.

philsmove
30th-July-2009, 02:11 PM
I still meet partners at Ceroc that have moved on to Tango or other dance forms, it must be doing something right.
:yeah:

Nothing wrong with Ceroc or Tango, I and lots of my frinds enjoy both

straycat
30th-July-2009, 05:08 PM
The way I've been taught is that when there's just connection, the follow can improvise to her heart's content. The indication that she's finished is when she provides compression back into the lead. Similarly, the lead can provide compression to indicate that the current movements over and it's time to get on with something else. If you agree, then you reciprocate the compression. When you have either compression or tension, then there's far less room for improvisation.

Out of interest, who teaches this?

I confess it's not an improvisation method that I particularly enjoy - I prefer improvisations that are more of a shared experience, rather than the 'your turn-my turn' variety. That said - if I have 'handed over' the initiative to my partner, I want to be able to support her in anything she does, which can, for some followers, easily include some fairly heavy tension & compression - so that way of passing over / back the lead doesn't really work for me.

bigdjiver
30th-July-2009, 06:32 PM
... I confess it's not an improvisation method that I particularly enjoy - I prefer improvisations that are more of a shared experience, rather than the 'your turn-my turn' variety. That said - if I have 'handed over' the initiative to my partner, I want to be able to support her in anything she does, which can, for some followers, easily include some fairly heavy tension & compression - so that way of passing over / back the lead doesn't really work for me.My objective would be the dance equvalent of conversation or, better still, a duet. I am the stage of too often butting in, not hearing correctly, talking over, and, occasionally, making inappropriate comments or jokes.

This is an area where my "dance with everybody" philosophy does not help. OTOH there are relationship dangers in intense connection. There are times when I am convinced that the only "right" move in the moment would be to kiss the girl, but that is unlikely, to say the least, to be a majority opinion.

bigdjiver
30th-July-2009, 06:41 PM
And a year later, the other dancers have a nice little duplex, while the cerocers are still in their house of sticks...It depends, of course, how much effort people are committed to put in. For the same amount of effort the Cerocers have somewhere they can stay, whereas the condo builders have only some water filled trenches where the foundations would be. Ceroc does take dance to the lazy, and does give them the confidence that they can build.

The sad thing about other more disciplined dance forms is that too many give up on those, but never try anything else. They only know failure. For me lesson 1 is always "You will enjoy the class" and lesson 2 "You will be able to do it."

Gadget
31st-July-2009, 12:54 PM
And a year later, the other dancers have a nice little duplex, while the cerocers are still in their house of sticks.

Although I'm not sure they actually get to the sticks stage; the majority just keep throwing piling up straw and more closely resemble a haystack than a house. And after a protracted period of rain, it will start to smell a little.
And while we dance in a swampy quagmire, sticks can be the best thing to build from. If you want to build your tower of stones, it's easier to find some high ground first, then you can look down on the rest of the people who "can't" dance. I'm happy in among everyone, getting wet and dirty, living in my house of sticks, paddling out there on my raft of straw. :D

{there ain't too many crocs out here are there? :what:}

straycat
31st-July-2009, 01:27 PM
{there ain't too many crocs out here are there? :what:}

I'm wearing a pair right now :D

straycat
31st-July-2009, 02:07 PM
And while we dance in a swampy quagmire, sticks can be the best thing to build from. If you want to build your tower of stones, it's easier to find some high ground first, then you can look down on the rest of the people who "can't" dance. I'm happy in among everyone, getting wet and dirty, living in my house of sticks, paddling out there on my raft of straw. :D

I don't believe it's a case of what you build your tower / house / whatever from.
I believe it's simply a case of how you build your foundations. As a gross simplification, with good enough foundations you can build pretty much whatever you like. If your foundations are shaky, your options become extremely limited.

IMO, MJ simply trades good foundations for accessibility - a trade off that (I suspect) almost all of us were happy with when we started, but for some of us, it didn't stand the test of time... and we ended up having to rip out those foundations and start over.

straycat
31st-July-2009, 02:14 PM
This is an area where my "dance with everybody" philosophy does not help. OTOH there are relationship dangers in intense connection. There are times when I am convinced that the only "right" move in the moment would be to kiss the girl, but that is unlikely, to say the least, to be a majority opinion.

Aaaaaaaah - young Padawan - learn to turn away from these base earthly feelings you must. Only then your spirit free to eternity and beyond will soar, and the Dance Force truly yours shall be.

bigdjiver
31st-July-2009, 03:38 PM
Aaaaaaaah - young Padawan - learn to turn away from these base earthly feelings you must. Only then your spirit free to eternity and beyond will soar, and the Dance Force truly yours shall be.but is that really better than a good snog?

straycat
31st-July-2009, 03:42 PM
but is that really better than a good snog?

Hell yes! :D

emmylou25
31st-July-2009, 04:48 PM
Out of interest, who teaches this?



I think Geoff's talking about Simon & Nicole who teach a lot of technique about tension and compression.

I think it works very well if both dancers know this technique and use it, although some people I dance with who take their classes don't necessarily follow this if I try it. I do think though, that's it's probably more important for both dancers need to be quite in tune with each other to be able to hear the same kind of 'playful' moments in the music

geoff332
31st-July-2009, 07:22 PM
Out of interest, who teaches this?
I think Geoff's talking about Simon & Nicole who teach a lot of technique about tension and compression.

I think it works very well if both dancers know this technique and use it, although some people I dance with who take their classes don't necessarily follow this if I try it. I do think though, that's it's probably more important for both dancers need to be quite in tune with each other to be able to hear the same kind of 'playful' moments in the musicSimon and Nicole teach that approach (that not everyone gets it is a separate issue; a lot are established ceroc dancers who struggle to learn a new trick). Phil and Yuko have also hinted at it (and Yuko does this beautifully when you dance with her). Nigel and Nina also teach a similar thing. But I first encountered it many years ago, in Latin American.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the people who teach this sort of technique are among the best dancers in the country.

I confess it's not an improvisation method that I particularly enjoy - I prefer improvisations that are more of a shared experience, rather than the 'your turn-my turn' variety. That said - if I have 'handed over' the initiative to my partner, I want to be able to support her in anything she does, which can, for some followers, easily include some fairly heavy tension & compression - so that way of passing over / back the lead doesn't really work for me.I've probably not described it at it's best; it certainly isn't your turn-my turn. Compression and tension are basically opposing forces; you don't have them both together. Support should be provided by the frame, which is completely independent of both. I can live without the tension and compression in a follow, but if they have no frame I find it much harder to dance with them and much harder to know what they're doing.

bigdjiver
1st-August-2009, 01:53 AM
Aaaaaaaah - young Padawan - learn to turn away from these base earthly feelings you must. Only then your spirit free to eternity and beyond will soar, and the Dance Force truly yours shall be.


but is that really better than a good snog?


Hell yes! :D:devil:I think we are seeing, yet again, that training from the best amatuers is no match for paid training from accredited professionals.:devil:

straycat
1st-August-2009, 10:31 AM
:devil:I think we are seeing, yet again, that training from the best amatuers is no match for paid training from accredited professionals.:devil:

So what qualifies you to make such judgements? How many intermediate snogging points have you got on the world stage, hey?

Amateurs indeed. :wink:

rtwwpad
5th-August-2009, 05:04 PM
Wandering away from the main point asked but I have to say I am surprised at the comments here. I'm coming up to 10 months of MJ and I have to say that Val and Dave and Bill in the CerocTV region teach compression, footwork, spinning etc. at different times where they feel its appropriate and quite often Val may take a few minutes out to explain a style aspect to the ladies or the men. Bill again is very good on the footwork and style. Reminding the ladies about their spare hands.

As for something new, there are 500 odd moves, I have to admit I've felt a bit samey recently when dancing. I wrote down the moves I know and like (about 50) but they're mostly variations - basket, basket with caress, basket with caress push forward block and reverse, basket with alt hand unwrap, basket forward block reverse, double handed unwrap. Repeat for 1st move, catapult, etc.

Not a big fan of arm waving moves as it can confuse your lady. Quite enjoying a sway to just a arm resting across the lady's back as you step in a 1,3,5 step pattern forwards and backwards. Good for getting the beat of the music. (Thanks to Amir's Musicality class at Lux)