Personal benefits of the CTA ?

[RobC]

OK, this is not intended to be another "Is Ceroc better than the independants" thread. I am asking this question from the position of a current 'independant' teacher with several years dancing experience (in MJ as well as Ballroom and many other styles) who is considering joining the CTA.

I am interested in hearing from any current CTA members, anyone still going through the training, or anyone who has considered becoming a Ceroc teacher and discounted it.

So the question is, what are the personal benefits - to yourself, not your class, venue or Ceroc as a whole - of paying thousands of pounds to go through the Ceroc teacher training ? (Apart from being able to teach at Ceroc venues ! Come on, I can guess that one :wink: )

Have you found any disadvantages ? Has it alienated you / cut you off from the rest of the dance world ? Have you been affected by the dance 'politics', been descriminated against by association to Ceroc ?

All views welcome.
Rob

[Franck]

Originally posted by RobC
So the question is, what are the personal benefits - to yourself, not your class, venue or Ceroc as a whole - of paying thousands of pounds to go through the Ceroc teacher training ?Hi Rob,

First of all, good luck :nice:

Before I reply to your question, I would like to point out that everything I say will be strongly biased towards Ceroc and the CTA :wink:

Over the years, I have found the CTA to be a fantastic source of training, in particular in giving myself and all the teachers that work for my with the solid foundations and good practise that ultimately make a good teacher.

The CTA is also a brilliant community of teachers, and the semi-regular training updates positively encourage that. Most teachers who spent the weeks of training involved together are now close friends, and the sense of belonging to a larger community is useful and rewarding.

Finally, a couple of things where the CTA might have been lacking in the past, have been improved a lot recently, and from recent discussioins with other franchises and the Dance Department, a lot more is in the pipeline to take all CTA teachers to another level.
It is my view that within a year or two, CTA teachers will be at the leading edge of all dance developments, and be able to offer some of the best classes / workshops and teaching.

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
Before I reply to your question, I would like to point out that everything I say will be strongly biased towards Ceroc and the CTA :wink:

Before I reply I should point out that whereas I'm not anit-CTA ... I'm not a fan. I thank Franck in advance for allowing me to put forward a contrary view.

I was trained by CTA and still regard the CTA training as the best traiing for teaching Beginner moves and basic intermediate. HOWEVER ... I should point out that at the time of my training, image and age were major considerations. Unconfirmed reports indicate that since its got worse.

The training resurces for CTA are good. George is an exeprienecd dancer and has a wealth of experience to draw on in the form of the CTA. The updates are usefull but not as good as they could be due to no video being issued.

The throny question .... will it enefit a teacher who wants to run workshops and teach more adavanced moves ... well, personal view is no. The teaching is not structured that way and it is probably at odds with the current CTA ethos (though that may be changing.

I left the CTA beacuse I felt I was restricted in how much I could develop the style of what I wanted to teach and where I could teach. whether thos erestrictions will apply once Mike Allard has reformed things is an unanswered question.

Having said all the above, I would agree with the majority of what Franck has said.... except the last statement. I believe that better teachers exist outside the CTA .. I'm not convinced that the standard of CTA teachers is as high as Frank believes ... but then again I am a bitter an twsietd ex-CTA who believes in the glory of the 'good old days':wink:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gus
Having said all the above, I would agree with the majority of what Franck has said.... except the last statement. I believe that better teachers exist outside the CTA ..

In fairness Franck doesnt mention that, he says...



It is my view that within a year or two, CTA teachers will be at the leading edge of all dance developments, and be able to offer some of the best classes / workshops and teaching.

..so we only need to wait and see if that will indeed be the case. :)

Any attempt to improve what Ceroc offers is always going to benefit the entire dance community in some way.

[Paul F]

Hi Rob,

Having just passed my intermediate training with Ceroc (still recovering as it was last night) I can offer two immediate words of advice.....

(scare story mode ON)

'Its Hard'.

Not only do you have to know moves and how to teach them but Ceroc demand much more than that nowadays. They will look at you, as a possible teacher, a number of different ways so be prepared for honest and constructive feedback. The courses are some of the toughest things i have ever done. This is by no means an exaggeration , believe me, its hard.
Im not in the position to go into how they do that but the current training dictates that you must be able to do much more than simply regurgitate material. They train you to 'teach' . This isnt just memorising lines. So, so much more

(scare story mode OFF)

Anyway, i guess i will share with you the reasons I applied.

(please note i respect all independants and believe they all respect MJ and wish to see it flourish)

1. I love Modern Jive and want others to love it too.
I realise this isnt ceroc specific but im sure you will
agree its a pre-requisite. :wink:



2. I asked myself "If i were applying for a job, do i apply to local, smaller firms who, fair enough, do a good job OR do i apply to a national firm that is recognised throughout the country (and beyond !!) and who set the standard which spawned all these smaller firms and continue to do so".

I want to spread the word of MJ. This company is in a position to do that.

3. I believe that Ceroc are a company with an exciting future and endless possibilities. The smaller companies dont 'appear' to be in that same position.

4. I knew the training was , 'possibly' the best and most comprehensive i can be exposed too.
(its v v hard but i wouldnt change it for the world)

5. You are part of a huge infrastructure of teachers and staff that work together to help each other (this is from the experience i have been through. Of course in this world im sure there are people that just dont get along :sad: yet to see that in the CTa though)

6. At this moment in time Ceroc has built on a strong foundation and has at the helm people that have a drive for business and an enthusiasm for MJ. Two factors in a company that make me say

"i want to be in the CTA"

And i know there are exciting times ahead.


Of course people will probably offer conrtradictory points (and rightly so - u should hear all views) than those above but im in a, somewhat, unique situation here and these are MY beliefs.


nb. i must also point out that the co-existence of ceroc and independants should be one to be encouraged. With no competition a businees may suffer.
I have no interest in politics and, as a teacher not a franchisee, this is not my territory. I work for ceroc and will do my very best for them. I am not interested in politics.

[Paul F]

my fingers hurt now


:tears: :tears: :tears:

Going to go play some soothing music to relax them too

Now wheres that 'best of the mavericks' cd :what: :what:

[Emma]

Originally posted by Paul F
Now wheres that 'best of the mavericks' cd :what: :what: [off topic]Steve's borrowed it!! :devil:[/on topic]

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Emma
[off topic]Steve's borrowed it!! :devil:[/on topic] Yes. And it's now gone.

Now.... who else wants to lend me theirs :D

Steve (a man on a mission to rid the MJ scene of the Mavericks!!)

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Paul F
Hi Rob,
Having just passed my intermediate training with Ceroc (still recovering as it was last night)
Congratulations Paul :hug:

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Sheena
Congratulations Paul :hug:

Thanks Sheena. I appreciate that. :hug:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Paul F

2. I asked myself "If i were applying for a job, do i apply to local, smaller firms who, fair enough, do a good job OR do i apply to a national firm that is recognised throughout the country (and beyond !!) and who set the standard which spawned all these smaller firms and continue to do so".


Learn to chef at McDonalds or go to an individual master chef?

CTA training seems to be as much about convincing people CTA training is great as anything else, juding by the way people 'sales pitch' (i've seen this a few times) straight after finishing it, but tend not to hold it in high regard after a couple of years experience.

Any coaching has to be to be to either
1) improve your dance technique or
2) improve your presentation technique (via clothes, scripts, attitude, general principles - be nice, wear deodorant, don't embarass beginners, etc)

Rob, you could as an individual certainly look at where you could improve and focus on those areas.

I just remember for the amount Ceroc was charging for 2 weeks CTA training, you could personally hire Viktor for a month full time as your personal teaching and dancing coach. If 4 of you got together to hire a top-notch expert for a few weeks, you would get far better training, and far more cost effectively than you would from Ceroc.

What if 4 people could pay 100 pounds a day each for 2 weeks. You would be paying a teacher 400 pounds a day. You could have your pick of teachers at that price. Viktor for 4 full days, Nigel for 3 full days, then Amir for 4 full days. You could split it up over weekends. Now thats the kind of training I'd want to do!!!

[Emma]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
CTA training seems to be as much about convincing people CTA training is great as anything else, juding by the way people 'sales pitch' (i've seen this a few times) straight after finishing it, but tend not to hold it in high regard after a couple of years experience. Er...
Originally posted by Franck
Over the years, I have found the CTA to be a fantastic source of training
Originally posted by Gus
I was trained by CTA and still regard the CTA training as the best traiing for teaching Beginner moves and basic intermediate. ...both these guys have been around for a while, haven't they? :innocent:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Emma
Er... ...both these guys have been around for a while, haven't they? :innocent: Forever!!! :wink:

Steve

[Chris]

I notice James doesn't differentiate between Ceroc training in the UK and in NZ where he trained . . .

[Will]

I was at Hipsters a couple of months ago and James was teaching instead of Amir, and Kate was demonstrating.

One particularly interesting move he taught entailed having the girl bent over at 90 degrees with her bum sticking up in the air. Mr Geary's method of teaching this move was to inform the class that if the girl was in the correct position you could rest your beer on the top of her butt.

I need to do that Ceroc NZ Teacher Training!!! :cheers:

[TheTramp]

And just how drunk was Kate when she agreed to do that move then???? :cheers:

Steve

[Sonic]

Here's 2 of the main reasons why I did the CTA:

1. I needed the training! I'm not a natural, I know I needed a well established, rigorous training course to work out whether I had what it takes to get up on stage. As PaulF says, the course is tough, and I often found myself questioning why I was putting myself through it, but I knew that if I couldn't get through the course, I certainly couldn't do a class. Training is supposed to prepare you for real life, so did the course accomplish this? Well, when I did my first class, I found I was actually quite confident, because the exams were far more nerve wracking than the real thing; and people reacted with surprise when I told them that had been my first ever lesson (although I accept the possibility that some of them were just being nice!).

2. I believe that a recognised teaching qualification is advantageous personally and to the business. Now the CTA qualification is interesting because, although it is recognised within the MJ community, it is not actually recognised by the major UK dance organisations (e.g. IDTA). However, if you tell non-dancers "I'm a teacher, I've got no qualifications, but hey, I learned from the best", it doesn't sound that impressive. Rightly or wrongly, the general public accept formal qualifications/accreditations as some mark of quality. And then there's insurance: I think it's just a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured doing MJ, and following a massive lawsuit, all insurers will demand that all MJ teachers have some form of qualification. Personally, I'm amazed this hasn't happened already.

[Paul F]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Learn to chef at McDonalds or go to an individual master chef?



So you are saying that the best dancers make the best teacher trainers??

[Gus]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I just remember for the amount Ceroc was charging for 2 weeks CTA training, you could personally hire Viktor for a month full time as your personal teaching and dancing coach. If 4 of you got together to hire a top-notch expert for a few weeks, you would get far better training, and far more cost effectively than you would from Ceroc.


Although I see the logic in what you are saying, I'm not convinced about the point above. Teaching someone how to teach is VERY differnt from coaching someone to do moves well. I'm definitely not dissing Viktor et als ability to teach teachers ... but I wouldn't take it as a given.

To follow Paul F's point ... there is not always a correlation about a good dancer therefore being a good teacher .... I hope not as some of CTA trainers I had were LOUSY dancers:tears:

[Demota]

Absolute naturals are seldom good at imparting the technique of whatever skill they are good at. I was never a natural at anything but was able to teach a whole load of things (for example, juggling) 'cause I had to analyse things down to the basics to get good at them. Having said that, it's generally agreed that a lot of the top sportspersons get to the top of their profession by determination rather than natural ability.
(still dancing by numbers but it's coming....)

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Paul F
So you are saying that the best dancers make the best teacher trainers??

No. I'm saying that the best teachers make the best teacher trainers. (not shoes, Will you fool, stay with the program)

The best teachers are the ones who are in the most demand. Demand is people up and down the country wanting their classes and workshops.

Whatever they have is what needs to be learned.

With any of them it didn't happen by accident but through determination. Nigel & Nina, for example, have done one particular one of Robert Cordoba's workshops 4 times. Ok so maybe they're a bit slow and never managed to learn anything, or more likely they work damn hard to improve their own dancing & teaching technique by learning off other top professionals. I am sure they could have improved their dancing and teaching technique by getting advice from a non 'in-demand' teacher, but just not as much.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Sonic

the general public accept formal qualifications/accreditations as some mark of quality. ...all insurers will demand that all MJ teachers have some form of qualification.

Mike Ellard managed to pack Casbah full every week for (a decade?). So full you cant dance except by jumping up and down on the spot, or by screaming 'FIRE!' and then dancing for 20 seconds in the 4ft by 4 ft area cleared.

Mike never did the CTA, yet in spite of this the general public come in droves.

Perhaps the general public accept teaching ability as a mark of quality. Or success of classes.

That said, spending a week or two practising teaching a class, before ever teaching a class would certainly make it a lot easier. And you probably wouldn't get the usual month or two of awful lessons.

[Gus]

Originally posted by JamesGeary


Mike never did the CTA, yet in spite of this the general public come in droves.


ODA point .... but would you rate Mike as a teacher of beginners?

[Sonic]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Mike never did the CTA, yet in spite of this the general public come in droves.

Depends what you mean by the general public. I include non-dancers when I use that expression, so it may be we are at cross purposes as to definition. Interesting that the Ceroc website - which may be viewed by the world at large (as long as they have Internet access obviously), at least 99% of whom do not do Ceroc - states that all teachers are qualified. I wonder why that is? Is it because if you state on your website that some are qualified and some aren't, the general public would be put off trying Ceroc?


Perhaps the general public accept teaching ability as a mark of quality. Or success of classes.

Again, it may be that we are at cross purposes over the definition of general public. My point is the general public won't know about your teaching ability unless you get them through your door. Will they be encouraged or discouraged to visit your venue if it is revealed that the teacher has no qualifications? Would you send your kid to a school if the headmaster tells you the teachers have no qualifications, even if the classes are packed?

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Sonic

I think it's just a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured doing MJ, and following a massive lawsuit, all insurers will demand that all MJ teachers have some form of qualification. Personally, I'm amazed this hasn't happened already.

Insurers won't I'm afraid.You could argue in a claim its a material fact but its not the law ie teachers have to be qualified. :cool:

Could there be grounds for repudiation ? Maybe in one or two areas.

[Sonic]

Originally posted by stewart38
Insurers won't I'm afraid.You could argue in a claim its a material fact but its not the law ie teachers have to be qualified.

Going a bit off thread here, but whilst I'm also not aware of any law that says dance teachers have to be qualified, if you were to teach a dance regulated by the IDTA (e.g. ballet) you would not get insurance unless you had a teaching qualification issued by the IDTA. The difference is Ceroc is effectively self-regulated. My point was that IMO there will come a time when someone gets seriously injured and insurers will then re-think the terms under which they insure MJ events. One of the factors any claimant would point at in a lawsuit is the qualifications of the teacher.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Sonic
One of the factors any claimant would point at in a lawsuit is the qualifications of the teacher.
Not really my area of expertise, but I imagine that although this would be true it might well be 'Bolam' based, at least if there was a claim in negligence. In other words, a court would see if another responsible teacher may have acted in a similar way (and if the answer is 'yes' then conclude there was no negligence).

Mike Ellard might not be qualified (I don't know) but he's been teaching Ceroc longer than almost anyone else at the moment, and I think that that in itself is a qualification. Formal qualifications would be a supporting factor against a claim for negligence.

Insurance actuaries draft their policies on the basis of likelihood of loss, so unless Ceroc becomes formally accredited I think it's maybe unlikely insurers would worry too much about formal qualifications of teachers or not. In other words, I think you could argue that changes in insurance company policies might result from accreditation rather than the other way round.

And going back on topic :blush: , I think Mike can be classed as a 'qualified teacher' by Ceroc whether he has done the training course or not. SOmebody has to be one of the 'first' :wink:

[RobC]

Since starting this thread, some interesting and valid points have been raised:


Originally posted by Gus
I should point out that at the time of my training, image and age were major considerations. Unconfirmed reports indicate that since its got worse.
Indeed... there is a girl who currently dances at my local venue, who admittedly is young and very cute (ideal 'Ceroc image'), but has been dancing less than 6 months. She rarely dances with anyone other than her partner, and to be frank is a terrible follow. She lacks confidence and experience as a dancer, yet she has just been approached and asked to train as a Ceroc teacher..... :what:


Originally posted by Paul F
You are part of a huge infrastructure of teachers and staff that work together to help each other

Originally posted by Franck
The CTA is also a brilliant community of teachers, and the semi-regular training updates positively encourage that. Most teachers who spent the weeks of training involved together are now close friends, and the sense of belonging to a larger community is useful and rewarding.

Originally posted by Sonic
I needed the training! I'm not a natural, I know I needed a well established, rigorous training course to work out whether I had what it takes to get up on stage.
OK, so the CTA is a large 'family' community and is good for training new teachers with no experience of presenting lessons, but ......


Originally posted by Gus
I left the CTA beacuse I felt I was restricted in how much I could develop the style of what I wanted to teach and where I could teach.
.... what does / can it do for existing teachers who already have a well-established and working formula ? Does anyone else still in, or having left the CTA feel they have been resticted in their dancing ? Feel free to PM me if you would rather not post your opinions publically. :wink:


Originally posted by JamesGeary
Any coaching has to be to be to either
1) improve your dance technique or
2) improve your presentation technique (via clothes, scripts, attitude, general principles - be nice, wear deodorant, don't embarass beginners, etc).
OK, now I'm not saying that I'm perfect - people can always find something to improve on and I am frequently seeking feedback from punters on how to improve my current lesson format and presentation. However on the evidence I have seen to-date, for an experienced dancer, surely the CTA training will degrade your dance technique rather than improve it. Forcing all teachers to dance the same way, and only with 'approved' moves, (drawing on the Big Mac anaolgy again - a big mac is a big mac is a big mac, whatever restaurant you go to), will only serve to wipe out individuality and flair from which dance style stems and which is usually what helps to draw in the punters ?

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Sonic
Going a bit off thread here, but whilst I'm also not aware of any law that says dance teachers have to be qualified, if you were to teach a dance regulated by the IDTA (e.g. ballet) you would not get insurance unless you had a teaching qualification issued by the IDTA. The difference is Ceroc is effectively self-regulated. My point was that IMO there will come a time when someone gets seriously injured and insurers will then re-think the terms under which they insure MJ events. One of the factors any claimant would point at in a lawsuit is the qualifications of the teacher.

Probably not going of the thread as give us a big lawsuit and we will insist on qualifications and that could be another benefit of CTA.

I can find rates for dance academys and 'discotheques' which suggest its not top of our list for review at present as I think they have been called night clubs for the last 10yrs ? :sick:

[Chris]

Originally posted by RobC
Indeed... there is a girl who currently dances at my local venue, who admittedly is young and very cute (ideal 'Ceroc image'), but has been dancing less than 6 months. She rarely dances with anyone other than her partner, and to be frank is a terrible follow. She lacks confidence and experience as a dancer, yet she has just been approached and asked to train as a Ceroc teacher..... :what:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Chris]

Originally posted by RobC
.... what does / can it do for existing teachers who already have a well-established and working formula?

A market.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by RobC
However on the evidence I have seen to-date, for an experienced dancer, surely the CTA training will degrade your dance technique rather than improve it.
I did hear from someone {Can't remember who or where :sorry:} that the CTA presses out moulded teachers to their form, and it takes a month or so before the original 'style' thay had when they went in begins to break through.
So I think that it would degrade your dancing for a few months, but the plateau that could be reached on the other side is higher.

I suppose it's like anything; your level or ability is based on the basic groundwork and principles of danceing and CTA (supposedly:devil: ) installs the best foundations and basics.

[Emma]

Originally posted by RobC
However on the evidence I have seen to-date, for an experienced dancer, surely the CTA training will degrade your dance technique rather than improve it. Forcing all teachers to dance the same way, and only with 'approved' moves, (drawing on the Big Mac anaolgy again - a big mac is a big mac is a big mac, whatever restaurant you go to), will only serve to wipe out individuality and flair from which dance style stems and which is usually what helps to draw in the punters ? It's interesting to look at this theory in the light of the introduction of more 'formal' structure throughout Literacy sessions in English primary schools (dunno how it works in Scotland, so I can't include them!). For a start I think it's a far better comparison than the MacDonald's one, as it also relates to teaching.

Now, many people argued when the Literacy hour was introduced (and along with it highly prescriptive content, and a prescribed structure..does this look familiar?) that it removed the posibility for creativity and flair from teaching. But the point about it is that actually, once a good teacher is used to the structure they can apply their creativity and flair to it to produce inspiring lessons. In the case of a weaker teacher, the structure and prescriptiveness offers them a support upon which they can build and therefore improve their practise.

In my opinion, training does not make good teachers. Good teachers come from a combination of training, hard work, experience, and if they are very lucky, talent and creative flair. Training does however provide a way into techniques and a structure for people to work within and around. A community of teachers who can then share experience then helps to improve practise further. It sounds to me from what I have read here that as though the CTA is doing a good job of providing both the structure and the community.

[Sonic]

Originally posted by Chris
Mike Ellard might not be qualified (I don't know) but he's been teaching Ceroc longer than almost anyone else at the moment, and I think that that in itself is a qualification.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I've heard of doctors who've been practising for years without qualifications...

[Chris]

Originally posted by Sonic
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I've heard of doctors who've been practising for years without qualifications...
That's a bit different though isn't it? Rogue doctors pass themselves off as doctors when they aren't doctors - either in terms of the law or by the bodies that represent them or (to patients' loss) in practical terms, one would suspect. Mike Ellard isn't passing himself off as a ceroc teacher - he is one - both in practical terms and authorised by Ceroc Ltd. Which means legally he is a Ceroc Teacher as well of course.:wink:

btw I thought Emma's defence of CTA training was a good one (congrats on holding the side up!) - I can accept it as it sounds perfectly reasonable, although rather a costly 'reason' if taken on its own . . .

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by RobC
Indeed... there is a girl who currently dances at my local venue, who admittedly is young and very cute (ideal 'Ceroc image'), but has been dancing less than 6 months. She rarely dances with anyone other than her partner, and to be frank is a terrible follow. She lacks confidence and experience as a dancer, yet she has just been approached and asked to train as a Ceroc teacher..... :what: I have seen on Ceroc advertisements that you don't actually have to have any Ceroc experience to be a Ceroc teacher. So, you could say that at least she is 6 months ahead of the game.

I do think that it's awful - although, I do have personal reasons for this. I agree that the best dancers don't always make the best teachers. But I think that there has to be at least some respect of the teacers abilities as an actual dancer. I've danced with teachers - both Ceroc and other MJ organisations, that I've thought were hopeless dancers. It doesn't inspire any confidence in their classes. How can someone be expected to teach something they can't even do at a reasonable level..... :confused:

Steve

[Sonic]

Originally posted by Chris
That's a bit different though isn't it? Rogue doctors pass themselves off as doctors when they aren't doctors - either in terms of the law or by the bodies that represent them or (to patients' loss) in practical terms, one would suspect. Mike Ellard isn't passing himself off as a ceroc teacher - he is one - both in practical terms and authorised by Ceroc Ltd. Which means legally he is a Ceroc Teacher as well of course.

Well, it's only different because Ceroc is self regulated ie. they can make up the rules! But I agree with you, Mike Ellard's been teaching for a long time and he is one of the finest teachers around, I was simply pointing out that doing something for a long time does not necessarily amount to a qualification IMHO. :cheers:

[Franck]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Learn to chef at McDonalds or go to an individual master chef?This is a totally wrong analogy.
The C.T.A. is a well recognized training programme, which has consistently delivered great teachers. It prepares all teachers for *all* aspects of teaching and on providing a solid foundation for future growth / progress. It focuses on improving your dancing, cleaning up your footwork / style, delivery of a class, style and technique key-points, delivery and presentation, how to help and reassure Beginners and work with Intermediates, etc... Overall, anyone completing the Teaching courses, will be able to get on stage and teach a good class.

I would also dispute that paying for private tuition with some of the 'Big shot' dancers is a good way to become a teacher. As a few people have mentioned, being a good dancer, and even a good teacher doesn't necessarily make you a good teacher trainer. The C.T.A. is very focused on providing teacher with all the teaching skills they need.

Originally posted by RobC
.... what does / can it do for existing teachers who already have a well-established and working formula ? Does anyone else still in, or having left the CTA feel they have been resticted in their dancing ? Feel free to PM me if you would rather not post your opinions publically. :wink: I agree that in the past, the C.T.A. and indeed Ceroc, have tried to maintain consistency at all cost, including preventing Teachers from teaching different styles. Things are very different now, and from several discussions with the Dance Department, and with Mike, it looks like the C.T.A. might be actively encouraging personal style / technique. This leads me to the optimism I expressed in my earlier post.
I believe that, combined with the network and structure that Ceroc offer, this new forward looking approach will completely transform the market and offer classes and workshops that *none* of our current competitors will be able to match!

Exciting times...

Franck.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
Overall, anyone completing the Teaching courses, will be able to get on stage and teach a good class.

I'm obviously not qualified to contribute much to this debate, but I do have a question.

Does the CTA monitor teaching skills much, after the training?

Chris

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Franck
The C.T.A. is a well recognized training programme, which has consistently delivered great teachers. It prepares all teachers for *all* aspects of teaching and on providing a solid foundation for future growth / progress. I'm not sure what you mean by "all" aspects of teaching here. It clearly doesn't cover everything - for example, I can't think of *any* Ceroc teacher I'd trust to teach me lifts, let alone *all*. In some ways a strawman argument, but I think a lot of the people saying "what's the point of the CTA?" are coming from the direction of "Ceroc doesn't teach what I want to learn" - the quality of the teaching is irrelevant if it's not the subject you want!
Overall, anyone completing the Teaching courses, will be able to get on stage and teach a good class.There might be too much complacency about the "Ceroc standards". To be fair, the general quality of Ceroc teaching is pretty high. But I've certainly seen some poor Ceroc teachers, and some advice from them I'd consider actively dangerous.


I would also dispute that paying for private tuition with some of the 'Big shot' dancers is a good way to become a teacher. As a few people have mentioned, being a good dancer, and even a good teacher doesn't necessarily make you a good teacher trainer. Surely it depends on what you're after. I assume people like James (Geary) want to be teaching "at the top end". They want to teach people aiming to compete in advanced, open, or spotlight. Dance technique and knowledge are probably much more important than teaching skills in that market. [At least in the sense of I'll take a poor teacher who knows what I want to learn over a good teacher who doesn't].

Dave

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
........and offer classes and workshops that *none* of our current competitors will be able to match!

Franck.

Sounds like a challenge:wink:

BRING IT ON BABY!!!:devil: :devil:

Seriously though, Blitz have got the North pretty well sown up, same for LeRoc and MoJive down South ... be interesting to see if CTA will be able to match the teachers out and about.

Having said that, with all respect, I must admit that I'd be a bit miffed if just because someone was a CTA teacher they automatically thought they were better than the independants. I don't regard myslef as the best teacher on the planet but I've seen a fair few CTA teachers I'd like to think I'm better than.

[Brady]

Originally posted by RobC
I am interested in hearing from any current CTA members, anyone still going through the training, or anyone who has considered becoming a Ceroc teacher and discounted it.

I fall into the last option, having been invited to audition for the CTA a couple months ago. After some time of consideration, I decided that it wasn't for me at the time for several reasons, of which some I will comment on.

From all the CTA teachers I have spoke to, the training sounds very good for getting you to a level that you can teach a beginners and intermediate class with confidence.

Somebody already mentioned politics in this thread and at the time of making my decision, there was quite a lot of this going on which really put me off given that it is all meant to be fun. As well, joining the CTA usually requires a few years commitment and I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong, but never did get to read the nitty gritty of joining) that once you quit the CTA, you're not allowed to teach with a competing organisation for a year.

More general, I am quite disappointed that Ceroc don't promote dance in general. By this, I mean that it is disappointing that most other organisations allow each other to pass out flyers, etc. of upcoming events. Are Ceroc really that worried that their competitors will rise up and put them out of business???? And what about a Ceroc teacher teaching at a non-Ceroc or non-MJ night; is this allowed? Everything that I've heard indicates no (reason why some of the best CTA teachers left some years ago). I was told that I could encorporate other styles into my MJ, which is fair enough, but it would really help if I were doing both regularly.

Finally, about the future of Ceroc. I will complement Ceroc on being excellent at teaching beginners and intermediates, but really don't see how they can move into the advanced market. The advanced teaching that I've seen is highly a result of the teaching couples style, rather than a standard set of advanced moves or a particular style. I'm very curious to see how Ceroc plan to move to this new level. Are they going to make use of the so called 'hot shot' teachers who are already miles ahead of them?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being anti-Ceroc; I feel that they do a great job at what they're doing and that's what they should continue to do and allow others to do the rest. The CTA also seems like a good training program, depending on your teaching asperations. For some of us though, it just may not be the right thing, as I felt was the case for me.

Brady

[Gus]

Originally posted by Brady
As well, joining the CTA usually requires a few years commitment and I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong, but never did get to read the nitty gritty of joining) that once you quit the CTA, you're not allowed to teach with a competing organisation for a year.


As far as I'm aware, this clause is non-enforcable (restraint of trade act etc) Never seen it implemented



More general, I am quite disappointed that Ceroc don't promote dance in general. By this, I mean that it is disappointing that most other organisations allow each other to pass out flyers, etc. of upcoming events. Are Ceroc really that worried that their competitors will rise up and put them out of business????


Have to stick up nfor Ceroc here ... they are not the only or worst offenders. Though there are areas pf co-operation, the main players I've found to offer 'reciprocal advertising' are those with no market of their own and so the advantage is very much to them.




I'm very curious to see how Ceroc plan to move to this new level. Are they going to make use of the so called 'hot shot' teachers who are already miles ahead of them?


Totaly agree ... like most independant instructors I await the outcome. Will there be co-operation or outright competition .... either way, the future could be bright for the average dancer who simply wants more choice.

[Sonic]

Originally posted by RobC
Indeed... there is a girl who currently dances at my local venue, who admittedly is young and very cute (ideal 'Ceroc image'), but has been dancing less than 6 months. She rarely dances with anyone other than her partner, and to be frank is a terrible follow. She lacks confidence and experience as a dancer, yet she has just been approached and asked to train as a Ceroc teacher..... :what:

The above situation doesn't sound right, I agree, but there are always 2 sides to every story, and since the girl doesn't seem to be here to defend herself:

First, making a general point - let's be clear, I'm not addressing any individual - when a girl can't follow, I think men should always look to themselves first. I know that we like to think we're fantastic, but come on! A woman at my venue last week told me a man had walked off in the middle of a dance saying she couldn't follow. I danced with her, and there was nothing wrong with her dancing.

Secondly, perhaps the Ceroc franchisee in question saw in this girl something that others have missed, and did what Premiership football clubs do ie. nab the young talent before the opposition. I don't know any franchisee who can afford to throw money away investing in someone who won't make the grade. The CTA fees don't get refunded if their candidate fails.

[Chris]

Originally posted by David Franklin
- for example, I can't think of *any* Ceroc teacher I'd trust to teach me lifts, let alone *all*.

Well I wouldn't trust any ceroc teacher to teach me lift, drops or other moves that rely on specific knowledge of underlying physiology or whatever it is, but *in their role as a ceroc teacher* - some ceroc teachers know their stuff in these areas (eg Donna van Heuse springs to mind I think), but in all cases where I've seen them taught well the ceroc teachers have had outside training to learn that stuff properly - Donna trained in Australia, for instance.

If Andy and Rena suddenly became CTA certified, I'd still trust them to teach aerials (and I assume you would too David) but it's the lack of awareness of their limitations about CTA teachers that is the galling (and sometimes dangerous) thing. What they are trained to teach they generally teach brilliantly, but it's when they try to teach stuff they haven't been taught adequately or haven't picked up adequately from elsewhere. Awareness of limitations and honesty about them is a primary safeguard for good teachers (and this goes for all sorts of teachers that people put their trust in, including and up to say, University Professors!)

I've learnt a lot from Ceroc teachers but I sometimes wish they had a little more humility and awareness of their strengths and weaknesses instead of the usual all-knowing party line :what:

[RobC]

Originally posted by Sonic
The above situation doesn't sound right, I agree, but there are always 2 sides to every story, and since the girl doesn't seem to be here to defend herself:
You're right of course, she isn't here to defend herself or tell a different side to the story, which is why I stopped at saying she was a poor follow. I could have gone further and qualified that statement with specifics such as tension, connection with your dance partner, looking at your dance partner instead of watching who your partner is currently dancing with..... :what:


when a girl can't follow, I think men should always look to themselves first. I know that we like to think we're fantastic, but come on! A woman at my venue last week told me a man had walked off in the middle of a dance saying she couldn't follow. I danced with her, and there was nothing wrong with her dancing.
As a teacher I think I am more than qualified in commenting on when the women I dance with are poor followers. I know there are a number of ladies on this forum that know me and I challenge anyone to say that I have a poor or weak lead. :really:


perhaps the Ceroc franchisee in question saw in this girl something that others have missed, and did what Premiership football clubs do ie. nab the young talent before the opposition.
I must confess that I don't actually know which franchisee approached the girl in question, I only heard the info second-hand. However, while I agree that good dancers don't necessarily always make good teachers, I firmly believe that to be a good teacher, you have to be a good dancer !! As a beginner, you look to the teachers and more experienced dancers as inspiration for improvement. If the teacher is nothing more than 'eye candy' and can't hold their own on the dance floor in free style, what message are you sending to your punters ?

[Will]

Originally posted by Chris
What they are trained to teach they generally teach brilliantly, but it's when they try to teach stuff they haven't been taught adequately or haven't picked up adequately from elsewhere. Awareness of limitations and honesty about them is a primary safeguard for good teachers (and this goes for all sorts of teachers that people put their trust in, including and up to say, University Professors!)

I've learnt a lot from Ceroc teachers but I sometimes wish they had a little more humility and awareness of their strengths and weaknesses instead of the usual all-knowing party line :what:
Maybe Franck can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Ceroc have very specific guidelines as to what the teachers can / can't teach, guidelines that are very responsible. It is only when you have a teacher that strays from what they've been trained for / strays from the "party-line" if you will (as opposed to towing it) that you have a problem.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gus

Seriously though, Blitz have got the North pretty well sown up



Its down to the punters though - if Ceroc come into an area and have a better venue with a better teacher (not necessarily a better dancer) then some of the local dancers may start going to there. The public are a fickle lot and assumptions about having 'sown up' an area is asking for trouble - but only if you were complacent (which ive seen happen before :) ), which I know you're not - Blitz are successful because they work at it ... not through chance :).

[Franck]

Originally posted by Will
Maybe Franck can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Ceroc have very specific guidelines as to what the teachers can / can't teach, guidelines that are very responsible. It is only when you have a teacher that strays from what they've been trained for / strays from the "party-line" if you will (as opposed to towing it) that you have a problem. Thank you Will. You are right of course. The CTA training course is very specific about what / when you're allowed to teach. Moves are colour coded accordingly, and clear guidelines are issued to both the Teacher and the Franchisee.
I know that some CTA teachers will have done their own thing anyway, and it is up to their Franchisee to get them to toe the line. Ultimately (and this has happened several times) any teacher can be expelled from the CTA. In some cases, they walked out, because they didn't like the constraints, and thought themselves (rightly or wrongly :sad: ) above such considerations.

Originally posted by Brady
From all the CTA teachers I have spoke to, the training sounds very good for getting you to a level that you can teach a beginners and intermediate class with confidence.
... snip ...
The CTA also seems like a good training program, depending on your teaching asperations. For some of us though, it just may not be the right thing, as I felt was the case for me. Reading the above, I wonder what your teaching aspirations could be?
It seems to me that teaching Beginners and Intermediate level with confidence is exactly what being a teacher is all about, at least to start with. All the current top teachers will have put years of work, teaching Beginners, Intermediate, and gradually, as they became better teachers and dancers, introducing more advanced style and technique in their teaching.
I would agree with the Tramp and a few others that you don't have to do the C.T.A. to become a good teacher, but in many ways, it forces you to re-invent the wheel, and as James pointed out, usually inflicting months (if not years) of poor teaching on unsuspecting classes.

Originally posted by Brady
The advanced teaching that I've seen is highly a result of the teaching couples style, rather than a standard set of advanced moves or a particular style. I'm very curious to see how Ceroc plan to move to this new level. That's exactly how Ceroc can enter the more Advanced market. The CTA is a huge resource of trained and experienced teachers, all offering different styles. The only shame is that so far, it had not been used to its full potential.
The benefits of 100 teachers all working together at developing new moves have already been seen over the years where most of the Modern Jive moves came out of Ceroc!
The same principle can be applied to preparing more advanced concepts / classes and workshops... I have already seen the results of such co-operation, and it was impressive.
As you point out, most current 'advanced' teachers were a very stylish / talented couple working together and coming up with new ideas... and that was only 1 couple at a time...
Most independents (though not all), by definition, work on their own; but few teachers have the time to dedicate to taking the dance forward all the time. The benefits of team work are immense, and to me will be one of the main benefits of belonging to the C.T.A. in years to come. :nice:

Franck.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Will
Maybe Franck can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Ceroc have very specific guidelines as to what the teachers can / can't teach, guidelines that are very responsible. It is only when you have a teacher that strays from what they've been trained for / strays from the "party-line" if you will (as opposed to towing it) that you have a problem.

Just thought I'd say that's my feeling too, and pleased Franck has confirmed it - it's the 'teaching outside the limits' that is the problem, and I think Franck confirms that too. the other question is getting hold of teh specific experience, as Dave mentioned.

(I'm just adding this in case I sounded overly critical - was meant to be constructive criticism but I know these things can come out wrong - especially out of my mouth sometimes lol)

[Franck]

Originally posted by Chris
the other question is getting hold of teh specific experience, as Dave mentioned. This is not really a problem any longer. As a franchisee (and teacher), I have been keen to invite some of the top teachers to teach in Scotland (Adam, David and Lily, Nicky and Robert, H, Viktor, etc...) so that we could learn from their expertise and experience.
This was a great way to improve everyone's standard (and have a fun week-end), but also for all the teachers who could make it, to learn new teaching techniques to add to their existing experience.

Franck.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Franck
This is not really a problem any longer. As a franchisee (and teacher), I have been keen to invite some of the top teachers to teach in Scotland (Adam, David and Lily, Nicky and Robert, H, Viktor, etc...) so that we could learn from their expertise and experience.

And good on you for doing for doing that - all superb innovative teachers and expert in their field. :grin: :grin: And all Ceroc related. :devil:

So can we expect to see you inviting Nigel and Nina up north to teach Blues? :devil: :devil: :devil: :rofl:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Chris
And all Ceroc related. :devil: Not all Ceroc related at all if you look carefully at the list :nice:
But you are right that they are all innovative and superb teachers. I have tried to focus on specific areas of expertise and sometimes unrecognized talents rather than just always the same names... Some events do get very dull, with always the same list of teachers, year in year out... There are some brilliant teachers out there, whose name isn't (yet) in the limelight, and who sometimes would have much more to offer.

In any event, while there were very strict guidelines in the past, things are changing.
Many teachers in Scotland have also attended workshops by Nigel / Nina, Amir, Donna, Dan (hip hop) and more...

My points is that if the teachers are willing and the Franchisee encourages them (and indeed pays for the extra training) C.T.A. teachers can get the best of both worlds!

Franck.

[Brady]

Originally posted by Franck
That's exactly how Ceroc can enter the more Advanced market. The CTA is a huge resource of trained and experienced teachers, all offering different styles. The only shame is that so far, it had not been used to its full potential.
The benefits of 100 teachers all working together at developing new moves have already been seen over the years where most of the Modern Jive moves came out of Ceroc!
The same principle can be applied to preparing more advanced concepts / classes and workshops... I have already seen the results of such co-operation, and it was impressive.
As you point out, most current 'advanced' teachers were a very stylish / talented couple working together and coming up with new ideas... and that was only 1 couple at a time...
Most independents (though not all), by definition, work on their own; but few teachers have the time to dedicate to taking the dance forward all the time. The benefits of team work are immense, and to me will be one of the main benefits of belonging to the C.T.A. in years to come. :nice:

Still not convinced! I will give credit to Ceroc developing loads of new moves, but as many dancers become more advanced, they don't need more moves, they need ideas as to how they can 'spice' up their existing moves. I have also seen a couple good Ceroc workshops over the past 4 months, but none that I can honestly say stand out beyond those of the so-called 'hot shots'. One particular Ceroc teaching couple comes to mind and after seeing them teach at Beach Boogie and compete in the JiveMasters (you may be able to guess who I'm talking about), to me they are essentially a copy of Viktor & Lydia. Sure they may be able to teach this style, but it already exists.

I haven't been in the MJ scene for long enough to be anywhere near an expert, but from what I have seen, it appears that it is the independents (likes of Nigel/Nina, Viktor/Lydia, Amir, etc.) who are and have been moving the dance forward, faster than most can keep up with.

I may sound stubborn about this, but I am still keeping an open mind and shall just wait to see all the new stuff coming from Ceroc.

Brady

[Chris]

Originally posted by Franck
Not all Ceroc related at all if you look carefully at the list :nice:

No?
Adam - Ceroc Franchisee and Teacher
David and Lily - not Ceroc-labelled but in from the birth of Ceroc
Nicky - the English Ceroc component of Australian Ceroc
H - sorry - who is H? :confused: maybe I've missed someone there :confused:
Viktor - almost the epitome of Ceroc

so what have I missed??

Originally posted by Franck

Many teachers in Scotland have also attended workshops by Nigel / Nina, Amir, Donna, Dan (hip hop) and more...

(cough) yes, three Scottish teachers attended a beginners blues class at Cambers by N&N (cough cough)

Amir is a NZ Ceroc teacher in good standing even if he teaches dance fusion

Donna is (or was) CTA qualified even if she is probably Aussie Ceroc qualified as well now and no longer restricted by CTA

Originally posted by Franck

My points is that if the teachers are willing and the Franchisee encourages them (and indeed pays for the extra training) C.T.A. teachers can get the best of both worlds!

Big 'if' there. Going along to a beginners lesson from Nigel and Nina (Blues) or Andy and Rena (lifts and aerials) is hardly 'training.':what: :na:

But I'll accept that there has been progress in other areas, especially in Scotland. :) :)

[Franck]

Originally posted by Brady
I haven't been in the MJ scene for long enough to be anywhere near an expert, but from what I have seen, it appears that it is the independents (likes of Nigel/Nina, Viktor/Lydia, Amir, etc.) who are and have been moving the dance forward, faster than most can keep up with. That was exactly my point. The couples / dancers you named above have worked very hard and have certainly been driving most of the progress in the last 4/5 years, through sheer dedication and inspiration. All of the them had been teaching for years already.

Ceroc hasn't so far leveraged the wealth of talent at its disposal... My optimism stems from the fact we are now ready to do just that, and I believe that no competitor will be able to match the resources in Research and Development, as well as the ability to deliver it to a huge and willing market!

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Chris
so what have I missed??Maybe nothing, except that by your standard of definition, all the top teachers are Ceroc trained / connected! Including Nigel, who was a Ceroc teacher for a while. Maybe the C.T.A. is even better than I was admitting to :wink:
(cough) yes, three Scottish teachers attended a beginners blues class at Cambers by N&N (cough cough) That was only one event, there have been more workshops, and events, I can recall 3 or 4 in the last year alone!
In any event, none of these teachers offer Teacher Training as yet (apart from Private tuition) and I can only assume that they don't have a course / curriculum ready, so if you want to learn from those 'top' teachers, you need to attend their regular workshops / classes but learn from a Teacher's perspective rather than just to improve your dancing :D

Franck.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
and I believe that no competitor will be able to match the resources in Research and Development, as well as the ability to deliver it to a huge and willing market!



This sounds like the sort of thing Bill Gates would say.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Chris
H - sorry - who is H? :confused: maybe I've missed someone there :confused: Also CTA (teaches in Cheltenham or did last I heard) and has also taught at Beach Boogie for last 3 years (there's a profile of him in the Beach Boogie teachers list within the JumpNJive (http://www.jumpnjive.co.uk) website).

[Chris]

Originally posted by Franck
Ceroc hasn't so far leveraged the wealth of talent at its disposal... My optimism stems from the fact we are now ready to do just that, and I believe that no competitor will be able to match the resources in Research and Development, as well as the ability to deliver it to a huge and willing market!
In other words, if Ceroc had learnt this lesson several years ago(that you say they have now learnt), we would have the benefits of Nigel Anderson and Amir within the Ceroc network instead of having their style and ability dwarfed by the ceroc empire . . .

Nice

And hey, progress is progress, even at a late stage, but I think you might forgive us for holding our breath a tad - especially as we are still hearing of people being invited to teach who have nice pin-up qualities, but not of old, bald, highly talented and individualistic teachers being welcomed to the fold.

I wonder what they would say if Patsye Swayze applieed for CTA training - sod off, I imagine.

[Chris]

Originally posted by ChrisA

This sounds like the sort of thing Bill Gates would say.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: - oops - ODA laughter course :blush:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chris
Well I wouldn't trust any ceroc teacher to teach me lift, drops or other moves that rely on specific knowledge of underlying physiology or whatever it is, but *in their role as a ceroc teacher* - some ceroc teachers know their stuff in these areas (eg Donna van Heuse springs to mind I think), but in all cases where I've seen them taught well the ceroc teachers have had outside training to learn that stuff properly - Donna trained in Australia, for instance.

If Andy and Rena suddenly became CTA certified, I'd still trust them to teach aerials (and I assume you would too David) but it's the lack of awareness of their limitations about CTA teachers that is the galling (and sometimes dangerous) thing. What they are trained to teach they generally teach brilliantly, but it's when they try to teach stuff they haven't been taught adequately or haven't picked up adequately from elsewhere. Awareness of limitations and honesty about them is a primary safeguard for good teachers (and this goes for all sorts of teachers that people put their trust in, including and up to say, University Professors!)

I've learnt a lot from Ceroc teachers but I sometimes wish they had a little more humility and awareness of their strengths and weaknesses instead of the usual all-knowing party line :what: As far as I know, Donna (van Roose) didn't train in Australia. Most of the aeriels that I've ever seen her do (for example - though, you don't just mention aeriels in your statement), I've been on the bottom (and we would have entered the aeriels competition at Beach Boogie this year, if my college committments hadn't gotten in the way :tears: ). Her abilities in the hip hop and aeriels department were aided by her job as a fitness instructor. She only went to Australia a couple of years ago to compete in the Australian champs, where she met Paul, and has now moved over there permanently (our loss, their gain). Apart from that, she did train in this country with the CTA to be a ceroc teacher.

I'm also unaware of any ceroc teachers that do teach aeriels of any degree of difficulty. I've never seen a ceroc advertised aeriels class - although, I'm not sure that I know of any ceroc teachers (except for Rob May) who are particularly known for doing aeriels.

Although, everyone has to start somewhere with any new idea. When they first started teaching Aeriels, Andy and Rena had no experience of teaching them. They may well have had credibility as performers of them par excellance though. If ceroc were to start teaching aeriels (however unlikely this sounds - especially in Scotland :wink: ), I would hope that whichever teacher(s) did offer the workshop had in some way confirmed their fitness to teach them, although, I'm not sure that merely being acknowledged experts is the best way (the best dancers don't always make the best teachers). Though, I can't think of a better way off the top of my head.

I know that this post has dealt mainly with the issue of aeriels, though it could be applied to any new area or idea that Ceroc wanted to move in (possibly with less danger involved though) :D

Steve

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I know that this post has dealt mainly with the issue of aeriels, though it could be applied to any new area or idea that Ceroc wanted to move in (possibly with less danger involved though) :DAgreed - the reason I picked lifts is it's clearly an area where I'd need to look outside Ceroc for tuition. It's also specialised enough an area that "good dance teaching" becomes a luxury. You go to the people who know how to do it. Many people take circus lessons or gymnastics lessons and then adapt the moves for dance.

In some ways a more interesting question is lead/follow or musicality. Even now, Ceroc doesn't have a shortage of teachers who could teach this at a high level. But it has shown no interest in doing so, and, I think, would find it hard to do so using it's current approach - at least so far as regular classes go.

Dave

P.S. I remember Steve's 1st ever class, when a teacher didn't turn up at Ceroc. He was fine (though of course he has got better). Just one of many who prove the CTA course isn't that essential...

[Chris]

Originally posted by TheTramp
As far as I know, Donna (van Roose) didn't train in Australia. . . . Her abilities in the hip hop and aeriels department were aided by her job as a fitness instructor.

I was basing it on what she told me personally last time I saw her in the NE. At that time she was CTA approved and planning to go to Australia to complete her training to become Australian Ceroc approved. She taught a good class with mini aerials and drops and admitted privately it was based on Australian, not British, Ceroc. I might have picked her up wrong and you probably know her better than I do. The fact that she learnt the stuff in Oz before she was qualified doesn't make it less valid IMO - it was well taught which was what mattered. And as you point out she also understood it from the point of view of a fitness instructor. (Anyone got her video?)

btw there's a wee picture of her with me underneath on my website photos - nothing too fancy (we had a job getting my camera to work and conveying instructions while balanced mid-air lol)

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Agreed - the reason I picked lifts is it's clearly an area where I'd need to look outside Ceroc for tuition. It's also specialised enough an area that "good dance teaching" becomes a luxury. You go to the people who know how to do it. Many people take circus lessons or gymnastics lessons and then adapt the moves for dance.

In some ways a more interesting question is lead/follow or musicality. Even now, Ceroc doesn't have a shortage of teachers who could teach this at a high level. But it has shown no interest in doing so, and, I think, would find it hard to do so using it's current approach - at least so far as regular classes go.
[/B]

Ceroc is mainly aimed at the masses, and at the social dancer. In my view rightly so. Having done the spadework it is only now that we are beginning to see a substantial number of people who want to progress, and organisations filling that need. Ceroc may feel the need to cater for that market, or it may do better to rely on symbiosis.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Ceroc is mainly aimed at the masses, and at the social dancer. In my view rightly so. Having done the spadework it is only now that we are beginning to see a substantial number of people who want to progress, and organisations filling that need. Ceroc may feel the need to cater for that market, or it may do better to rely on symbiosis. I disagree with part of what you said. There's been a substantial number of people who want to progress for a long time (ever since I started dancing 4.5 years ago).

The trouble has been, that there hasn't been much of an outlet for these people within the world of Modern Jive, and hence they've gone onto other forms of dance (usually Lindy or Salsa), or just given up.

Now, maybe the gap at the advanced level in the market might be catered for a little more (while still I hope keeping the same standards for those that wish to social dance), and this will maybe take the whole Modern Jive scene onto a new level. Which will be good for everyone.

Ceroc has always said that it wants to bring in younger people, as they have a longer 'dance life' (theoretically). If people are going to only do MJ for 3-5 years, before they feel that there aren't sufficient challenges available and leave for other things anyhow, then surely it matters not what age they start at....

Steve

[DavidB]

(I can't remember if I posted this before - apologies if I did.)

One reason Ceroc has been successful is consistency. If you learn a First Move in Scotland, it is the same move that gets taught in Brighton. It is taught in the same way, in the same format of class, and within the same format of the evening. (And probably to the same music!)

I don't think this consistency applies when teaching more advanced concepts. There isn't a common 'advanced' technique. There isn't a common way of teaching advanced ideas. THere isn't even a common definition of an advanced class.

I still have to be convinced that there are enough CTA teachers who have the knowledge or experience to teach an advanced class. Explaining connection, or a latin hip action, is completely different to telling 200 people to "step back on 1". And as soon as you start saying "This is the best way to do something", you are implying that other ways aren't as good. I don't think it would look good for one CTA teacher to say one thing, and another CTA teacher to say something completely different.

You can't bring in advanced dancers from other styles (eg ballroom) and use their technique, because it doesn't always work in Modern Jive. Although there is undoubtedly huge amount we can learn from other styles, there is quite a lot that doesn't apply. You need the teachers to sort this out first before teaching a class.

The quickest way would be to get some of the existing non-CTA teachers to do the classes. But this would have its own set of problems. Even those teachers who have been doing advanced classes for years would disagree on even basic ideas.

I just don't think the dance or the teachers have developed enough yet for Ceroc to teach a common style of 'advanced' dancing. I personally think they should leave it to the independent teachers, or CTA teachers working independently, for a few more years before they lend their name to an 'advanced' form of Ceroc.

It will be interesting to see what gets taught when they start the 'Advanced' classes at Fulham next year. If it is just a harder class, then none of the above comments apply.

David

[Jon L]

I hear through the grapevine about an applicants audition recommendation sheet,

Now listening some of it is personally reasonable but some of it I think is silly, and criticises dress wear and footwear.
etc.

Now I admit if the chap teaching was wearing a cardigan and slippers that might put me off, but shouldn't the teaching panel be more primarily interested in the applicants ability to get the moves across to the class?

I wonder if someone from CTA panel would post a reply on this subject ?

[stewart38]

Originally posted by RobC

As a teacher I think I am more than qualified in commenting on when the women I dance with are poor followers. I know there are a number of ladies on this forum that know me and I challenge anyone to say that I have a poor or weak lead. :really:



Reminds of a old teacher friend who once said he had just danced with 4 or 5 ladies in a row who were all poor followers :confused:

People who have been dancing 6 months can be as good as people who have been dancing 10yrs.
I dance with someone who was older then my mother yesterday and I'm nearer 40 then 30 and I guess ceroc want to encourage the 20-40 age group
:sick:

[Sonic]

Originally posted by Jon L
I hear through the grapevine about an applicants audition recommendation sheet,

Now listening some of it is personally reasonable but some of it I think is silly, and criticises dress wear and footwear.
etc.

Now I admit if the chap teaching was wearing a cardigan and slippers that might put me off, but shouldn't the teaching panel be more primarily interested in the applicants ability to get the moves across to the class?

I wonder if someone from CTA panel would post a reply on this subject ?

Rightly or wrongly, image is an important factor to any business, e.g. try turning up to an interview with a law firm in jeans/T-shirt and see whether they'll accept you even though you may have a 1st in Law from Oxford. You could argue they should be more interested in your ability as a lawyer...

Having said this, the list of things to improve or work on following an audition can run into 2 or 3 pages, of which only one sentence (maybe two) deals with your attire.