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Mayhem
24th-April-2009, 06:26 PM
Hi All,
I'm new to the forum today, but have joined here basically to discuss an issue I'm having at my local Ceroc venue, in the hope that someone can give me some ideas on how to tackle the problem...

OK, I'm female, and a competent follow, but I now want to learn to lead to a good standard too. I am allowed to do the Beginners class with everyone else, but when I want to go into the beginners practice session I am stopped. The first time this happened it was our taxi manager who was taking the practice, and out of respect to the other beginners I did not say anything in front of the others and went through it as a follow. When I explained to her that I wanted to learn as a lead she told me I would have to just do it the way she did, just by trying to learn on the dance floor. I explained that a lot of men ask me to dance all the time, so it's hard for me to get the reinforcement of the moves. But no, she was adamant.

Next day I spoke to the franchisee who backed her manager saying she was a good manager, and did not want to upset or lose her, but not only that she also said ladies would be uncomfortable dancing with other ladies, and the taxi dancers would feel threatened by having a good dancer in the beginner class, and it was for beginners only, which is what I am where leading is concerned! To cut a long story short, I have danced the past two weeks in the practice, checking with the taxi's if it was ok, and the ladies how they felt, as the Franchisee & Manager were absent, and they were all more than fine, in fact very pleased to have me there. but now I've had a message left on my answer machine telling to cease again.

I've phoned H.O. but they say they can do nothing... :banghead: and I was wondering if anyone else has had this dilemma, and if so what they did about it????

Thanks folks

FoxyFunkster
24th-April-2009, 06:35 PM
Hi All,
I'm new to the forum today, but have joined here basically to discuss an issue I'm having at my local Ceroc venue, in the hope that someone can give me some ideas on how to tackle the problem...

OK, I'm female, and a competent follow, but I now want to learn to lead to a good standard too. I am allowed to do the Beginners class with everyone else, but when I want to go into the beginners practice session I am stopped. The first time this happened it was our taxi manager who was taking the practice, and out of respect to the other beginners I did not say anything in front of the others and went through it as a follow. When I explained to her that i wanted to learn as a lead she told me I would have to just do it the way she did, just by trying to learn on the dance floor. I explained that a lot of men ask me to dance all the time, so it's hard for me to get the reinforcement of the moves. But no, she was adamant.

Next day I spoke to the franchisee who backed her manager saying she was a good manager, and did not want to upset or lose her, but not only that she also said ladies would be uncomfortable dancing with other ladies, and the taxi dancers would feel threatend by having a good dancer the beginner class, and it was for beginners only, which is what I am where leading is concerned. To cut a long story short, I have danced the past two weeks in the practice, checking with the taxi's if it was ok, and the ladies how they felt, as the Franchisee & Manager were absent, and they were all more than fine, in fact very pleased to have me there. but now I've had a message left on my answer machine telling to cease again.

I've phoned H.O. but they say they can do nothing... :banghead: and I was wondering if anyone else has had this dilemma, and if so what they did about it????

Thanks folks

I truly find this going against what the whole Ceroc thing should be about really and that is having fun and not taking the whole thing too seriously, I`m a ceroc teacher at a popular venue in central london and we have women leading women as well as men leading men, it is a source of amusement also, in fact i`ve even taught a role reversal class which everyone loved! As to what you can do about it??? I suggest talking to the teacher or Venue manager as i would be staggered if they agreed with the taxi leader.....anyway have fun either way, because thats the primary reason we go anyway....

Cruella
24th-April-2009, 07:12 PM
This seems bizarre to me.:confused: Most venues seem to have more follows than leads, so I would have thought you would be encouraged rather than discouraged to lead!
I've been dancing MJ for 14 years and it's the first time I've ever heard of this, (I lead and follow). Personally I would do what I wanted, you are the paying customer so it is up to you if you lead or follow. I would have thought they'd be unlikely to ban you for it! :rolleyes:

emmylou25
24th-April-2009, 07:23 PM
I can see where they're coming from if there're more leaders than followers at that venue, but otherwise if you're paying to go you should really be able to decide what role you want to do.

If you don't have an alternative venue to go to, and they're adamant about not allowing any females lead, then stick with being a leader in the first beginners class, and learn from that. All the female taxi's at our venues learnt being a leader this way - I don't think any of them did the beginners practise session. If you're a reasonable enough follow, and do the beginners practise class enough it'll sink in quickly enough. In my experience the classes are fairly easy to learn as a lead (I pick up the moves quickly even in intermediate), it's about practising in freestyle and doing it regularly enough to make it stick and get musical about it (not what I can be bothered to do).

Otherwise, the best thing is to find a female who's willing to practise with you being a leader (or find a man who wants to learn to follow). Or you could ask about booking on a workshop as a leader? Will cost more, but you'll get more in depth teaching if that's what you want

Hope it works out for you.

jivecat
24th-April-2009, 07:26 PM
In my rather limited experience of learning to lead I was strongly discouraged on one occasion from doing the reinforcement class as a lead. I think there were some valid reasons, like not enough followers, but I particularly wanted to go through the moves as a leader. I conformed to what other people wanted me to do on that occasion, but I remember thinking that I would make an issue of it if I was put in that position again. As my efforts to learn to lead have long since stalled, nothing further has happened.

I guess in the large scrum that is the open beginner's class nobody is in a position to tell you not to lead - unless it was the teacher on the stage, and to be fair to Ceroc, I don't think that ever happens. But in the smaller-scale revision classes there's more potential for class leaders to dominate.

I think the only possible reason for objecting to you leading in the revision class is because she knows or fears that some women there may be offended by the idea of dancing with another woman. I think this attitude is completely pathetic but I'm aware that some people think like this and the taxi manager might feel she has to take it into consideration. I know that when I have done some leading I have received a few negative vibes although most women are OK with it, if a bit puzzled.

You could decide to combat this by taking your own fixed partner to the class with you. Also, wearing a t-shirt saying "I am not a lesbian and even if I was I wouldn't fancy you" might reassure some of the faint-hearted.:rolleyes:



we have women leading women as well as men leading men, it is a source of amusement also, in fact i`ve even taught a role reversal class which everyone loved!Seeing as this is now common place at many venues as well as weekenders I'm amazed that anyone turns a hair.

Mayhem
24th-April-2009, 07:49 PM
Thanks FoxF' it's reassuring that not every one in a position of power has that attitude. My problem is confounded by the fact that one of our teachers mother is the Taxi Manager who will not allow me to reinforce the class in the practice, despite the fact that all the other taxi dancers who I've spoken to (in a very unpressurised, discreet way you understand) are happy to have me there!! Got to admit, it's taking the shine off my evenings now as I just want to learn, and they are blocking me!...If only I lived closer to you!!!!

drathzel
24th-April-2009, 07:53 PM
I am quite shocked at this. I am sure that the franchise owner has a good reason and it might be worth a chat with them when you are not at a venue.

As a franchisee and teacher i have always encouraged my dancers to dance both lead and follow. I believe that in my own experience this broadens the understanding of the dance as people can see what it is like on the other side of the hand hold.

I, like FF, have taught many role reversal classes, not only is it fun but again its enlightening.

In my venues in Northern Ireland i have both men and women dancing both roles on a regular basis, often switching between during the dance. ( I now regularly dance in london and learned to dance (lead and follow) in Scotland and find them to be the same)

I have had many women in the past approach me about becoming a better follow and i suggested they try leading, just once if they only want to, during a beginner class or review session, 9 times out of 10 the lady has come back to me saying that they have really learned from it.

I would suggest either speaking again to the franchisee and reiterating your want to lead, make sure they know why you want to do it (eg you want to get your female friends up to dance when you are out/you want to have a better understanding of the dance/you quite like the idea of becoming a taxi etc etc) if this bears no fruit i would suggest trying to attend another ceroc class where this is "allowed". As a very last resort, organise to meet up with your female dancing friends and ask them to help you by following you and giving feedback.

I learned to lead by grabbing a friend at a freestyle that had way more women than men and just giving it a go.

Good luck with your attempts at leading and if you are ever dancing somewhere that i am please come up and grab me for a dance.... i might even let you lead!

Mayhem
24th-April-2009, 08:48 PM
The lack of enough good leads, and the fact that when I dance with my male friends who want to expand in to trying to follow to make the dance more fun is what has prompted me to expand my repertoire.

Now here's the irony... I argued the lack of leads at our venue privately & in an unheated manner, & our Franchisee agreed and said that's one of the reasons why beginners leave because no-one will dance with them, and I said I would be happy to when I was competent enough to lead, she then said maybe I should think of taxiing, then I would have to learn Leading!

I also said, well surely as a paying customer I should be allowed to chose what I wanted to do, but no, apparently not!!! I am NOT according to them a beginner despite never learning to do anything but follow so cant go to the beginner practice as our Taxi dancers will be uncomfortable... surely taxi dancers shouldn't be doing any taxiiing if they are uncomfortable as we ask them to dance with us in the freestyle, so we know their standards and abilities anyway, and who am I to criticise, they know more than me & they are helping me learn!

It's so sad really when you look at the bigger picture and how Ceroc could be promoting dance, and retaining more customers... but what is truly comforting is that other Franchisees have a far more positive attitude and encourage out of the box thinking...Thank you, if I could I would be at one of your venues instead!

Battlecat
24th-April-2009, 08:52 PM
I am sorry to hear that you are having such a difficult time learning to lead. I also wanted to learn and felt the revision class was a good way to do this. I never attended when there were plenty of leads, but did check if the taxis were ok with me joining in as a lead and always was made to feel welcome and supported.

I am still not a good lead but it did make me a better follow and makes me appreciate the leaders and the difficult task they have. I hope you manage to get it sorted without it affecting your enjoyment.

StokeBloke
24th-April-2009, 09:16 PM
I would be inclined to look for a new place to learn to dance at. The current one you are using does not seem to be fulfilling your requirements at all, they do not even sound willing to find some form of suitable compromise. You are a paying customer and you are paying in part to learn to dance. Vote with your feet Honey. There are many places that are only too willing to help people become the dancer that THEY wish to be. Most places would jump at the chance to have someone who who wants to expand their skills on the dance floor.

As a side issue, all the female Ceroc teachers I know can lead. So it's not exactly like you're asking for something that's totally unheard of.

To find more suitable and understanding classes in your area you could check out the uk-jive website :wink: Please be aware that what you have experienced is not the general Ceroc experience - most Ceroc places are very friendly and accommodating.

martingold
24th-April-2009, 09:57 PM
I would be inclined to look for a new place to learn to dance at. The current one you are using does not seem to be fulfilling your requirements at all, they do not even sound willing to find some form of suitable compromise. You are a paying customer and you are paying in part to learn to dance. Vote with your feet Honey.
Please be aware that what you have experienced is not the general Ceroc experience - most Ceroc places are very friendly and accommodating.


Personally I would do what I wanted, you are the paying customer so it is up to you if you lead or follow. I would have thought they'd be unlikely to ban you for it! :rolleyes:

i agree with both these quotes completely

As i know mayhem as a personal friend as do some of you on here i will say she is a very tollerant and helpful person who imho has been the victim of jealousy

i have danced with the taxi manager in question and mayhem is a far stronger follow than she is

the franchise mayhem dances with has teachers and taxis from both ends of the spectrum ie very good to pretty poor (again only my opinion)
its also a shame that she would have to drive up to two hours to get to another ceroc venue so if she decided to vote with her feet ceroc would lose a very friendly competant dancer.

just to add she isnt local to the venue or franchise i work at as we would have welcomed her with open arms :flower:

frodo
24th-April-2009, 10:44 PM
...we have women leading women as well as men leading men...But rotating in the beginners review class ?


in fact i`ve even taught a role reversal class which everyone loved!Several posters have mentioned role reversal classes, but I'm not clear how they're relevant. I've yet to see a role reversal class taught to beginners.



...I think the only possible reason for objecting to you leading in the revision class is because she knows or fears that some women there may be offended by the idea of dancing with another woman. I think this attitude is completely pathetic but I'm aware that some people think like this and the taxi manager might feel she has to take it into consideration. I know that when I have done some leading I have received a few negative vibes although most women are OK with it, if a bit puzzled.
Have you considered it isn't about the other women. Experienced women leading in beginner review classes could reduce the number of male leaders that continue.


Seeing as this is now common place at many venues as well as weekenders I'm amazed that anyone turns a hair.
But not common place for people starting dancing.




I also said, well surely as a paying customer I should be allowed to chose what I wanted to do, but no, apparently not!!! I am NOT according to them a beginner despite never learning to do anything but follow so cant go to the beginner practice as our Taxi dancers will be uncomfortable... surely taxi dancers shouldn't be doing any taxiiing if they are uncomfortable as we ask them to dance with us in the freestyle, so we know their standards and abilities anyway, and who am I to criticise, they know more than me & they are helping me learn!

The Taxis are doing a job helping/teaching beginners in the review class.

Explanations are necessarily simplified and may use stereotypes to get the point across.

Male followers and female leaders can give them a lot more to explain.


Also some of the things they tell the follower may not be strictly true, if relevant to the situation, and they may be afraid you won't go along with it.



I would be inclined to look for a new place to learn to dance at.
Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable, but there are plenty of places that hold a different view.

But if distance is an issue, perhaps consider buying a beginners move DVD.


As an experienced follower you have other routes to learn other than the beginners review class. I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class.

StokeBloke
24th-April-2009, 11:06 PM
Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable, but there are plenty of places that hold a different view.
No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people. That's dance... not have sex with... dance. When I DANCE with people it does not matter to me one jot what gender they are, just as it wouldn't matter if I were to play badminton with them, or skittles or any other physical past-time. I lead guys quite happily, why shouldn't I? This whole thing just stinks of misplaced homophobia. So the taxi needs to talk to 'leads and follows' and not to 'guys and girls'. Whooptie doo da. They are there to help people learn to dance, if they find that they are uncomfortable with females leading then I suggest that the problem is with their own insecurities.

I can find NOTHING anywhere to say that if you attend a Ceroc night then females MUST follow and MALES must lead. Dancing is (or at least should be) fun for all.

I don't know where this person dances (nor do I suggest any hint of naming and shaming) but there's a whole raft of places teaching Modern Jive, Ceroc is but one of them.

Mayhem
25th-April-2009, 12:20 AM
To be absolutely fair here, it's not the regular taxi dancers, but the franchisee & the taxi manager who have the problem. In fact the taxi dancers I approached quietly, (and gingerly) to ask them would it be ok if I joined in & they were more than positive in their response. It was last week when the manager was at the venue that she saw me in the practice session, and so the franchisee left a message on my answer phone asking me not to do it. What is laughable here was the fact that we have a male beginner who has been in that class for a year now, he is more than capable of moving to intermediate, but refuses to do so as he feels lacking in confidence, he's a really lovely man, and enjoys helping out the taxi's and fair play to him, each to their own. However on the message that was left I was accused of making the numbers unbalanced in the practice session, so there was one extra man, (please note not the word 'lead' used here by the franchisee) as though that is a problem. So my next question is why is it unacceptable for there to be more leads than follows?, and also why is it ok when there are too many follows for 'women' to take up the slack as leads, but not in this particular instance for a 'man' to have to stand out for a turn?!!

Once again thanks to everyone for their comeback, it has helped me to see that the negative response that I am experiencing is, as I expected, unique in Ceroc, and that i am not being unreasonable in my request to learn the 19 beginner moves as a novice like anyone else.

jemessex
25th-April-2009, 02:43 AM
. I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class.


no..nor in the main class.
Just simply frowned upon and was told it would make other males uncomfortable especially beginners.
:banghead:

fletch
25th-April-2009, 08:23 AM
OK, I'm female, and a competent follow, but I now want to learn to lead to a good standard too. I am allowed to do the Beginners class with everyone else, but when I want to go into the beginners practice session I am stopped.
I've phoned H.O. but they say they can do nothing... :banghead: and I was wondering if anyone else has had this dilemma, and if so what they did about it????

Thanks folks

I think you might find 'theTor' dai had an issue in the early days when she began to dance, its cos of her and satrong people like her that have made 'female lead's' and male followers' more accepterble, she inssised the reason she had come to dance was to lead.
Go Gal :clap:






I can see where they're coming from if there're more leaders than followers at that venue, but otherwise if you're paying to go you should really be able to decide what role you want to do.


.

:yeah:


I would be inclined to look for a new place to learn to dance at.
Please be aware that what you have experienced is not the general Ceroc experience - most Ceroc places are very friendly and accommodating.

I agree, change your venue :flower:

fletch
25th-April-2009, 08:26 AM
Got to admit, it's taking the shine off my evenings now as I just want to learn, and they are blocking me!...If only I lived closer to you!!!!

this is a shame, not sure where you live Mayhem, but I have the habbit of poping up all over :wink: I would love you to lead me :flower:

Minnie M
25th-April-2009, 08:36 AM
..........to learn the 19 beginner moves as a novice like anyone else.

19 !

Just out of interest, do they really teach 19 moves in the beginner classes - I usually help when there is a surplus of followers (and have never had a problem with venue managers etc with this) I am a reasonable lead - but not sure if I know 19 moves :blush:

(all the female leads mention on this thread are a joy to dance with :respect::worthy: - and they must have started in the beginners classes)

Go girl !


BTW, IMO, women leads are very similar to women drivers, when you get a good one they are often better then men :yeah:

Lory
25th-April-2009, 08:45 AM
So my next question is why is it unacceptable for there to be more leads than follows?:yeah: This is a very fair question and I'd be interested to hear the venue managers answer

I, like most people on here, can't understand what the problem is. :confused:

Surely, having people at a venue who can both lead and follow, is a bonus for everyone?

jivecat
25th-April-2009, 09:11 AM
Several posters have mentioned role reversal classes, but I'm not clear how they're relevant. I've yet to see a role reversal class taught to beginners.
I've certainly seen role reversal classes taught as a general fun class before a free style. Personally, I hate them, as I find them too challenging!:blush: I think they are not suitable for absolute beginners who have not got much idea about the mechanics of lead and follow. However, once some understanding of that has been established then swapping roles does no harm at all. After all, it's about role, not gender.


Have you considered it isn't about the other women. Experienced women leading in beginner review classes could reduce the number of male leaders that continue.I'm not sure how exactly - unless male leaders respond badly to potentially being outclassed by a competent woman. Surely that wouldn't happen? :innocent: An experienced follower has to go pretty much back to basics anyway when learning to lead, as Mayhem pointed out.



But not common place for people starting dancing.Commonplace enough for anyone who ever attends a freestyle anywhere in the country to have witnessed it, even though they may not have taken part. Role-swapping has become part of the MJ culture now.





Explanations are necessarily simplified and may use stereotypes to get the point across.

Male followers and female leaders can give them a lot more to explain.It could even help to get the point across that there are two clear-cut roles - leader and follower. Lots of beginner's problems in MJ are caused by insufficient understanding of the two roles , so anything that highlights them is surely a good thing.



Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable, but there are plenty of places that hold a different view.I don't think it is reasonable but the bottom line is, you can't force the ordinary punter to dance with someone they don't want to. But if Mayhem can find partners within the refresher class that are happy to be led by her I can't see why she should not be allowed to participate.

My feeling is that the problem is down to specific individuals who are blocking this for personal reasons which I hope can be negotiated around.



But if distance is an issue, perhaps consider buying a beginners move DVD.This would be helpful to support learning but is in no way a replacement for practical experience.



As an experienced follower you have other routes to learn other than the beginners review class. I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class.Review classes must be teaching something useful, otherwise why would anybody bother running them - so Mayhem should be entitled to join in.

Little Feet
25th-April-2009, 09:50 AM
But not common place for people starting dancing.

Not commonplace? It certainly is in the beginners class where I dance, there are always women leading, not just taxis. Some women beginners have even turned up who would prefer to dance with each other, or are happy to lead and see no distinction about who should lead, and who should follow. A good friend of mine, who also taxis, has had lots of women beginners tell her how much they like dancing with her - not just because she's an excellent lead - but also because they feel comfortable asking her questions about following too, as most women dancers can do both roles. So as a women leading who can follow well, you have loads to offer beginners - surely this can only benefit your venue?

I agree with what other people have said - I'd vote with your feet. Even if there isn't another ceroc venue locally, is there any other organisation operating in your area?

martingold
25th-April-2009, 09:53 AM
But rotating in the beginners review class ?

Why not???



Have you considered it isn't about the other women. Experienced women leading in beginner review classes could reduce the number of male leaders that continue.
how? as this happens all the time at all the venues i have ever been to in 10yrs of dancing



But not common place for people starting dancing.


sorry female leads are extremely common in the beginners class and the practice session as there are in normal circumstances far more females wanting to learn to dance than males




The Taxis are doing a job helping/teaching beginners in the review class.

Explanations are necessarily simplified and may use stereotypes to get the point across.

Male followers and female leaders can give them a lot more to explain.

this is just pure rubbish
Also some of the things they tell the follower may not be strictly true, if relevant to the situation, and they may be afraid you won't go along with it.



:banghead:
this is just pure rubbish i am an experienced taxi manager and change what i say depending on the people in the class
its very easy to explain that later in the their dancing you will see men leading men although i have to admit i have never seen a male follow in a beginners class or a practice session i certainly would not be the one to question it (females leading females has been socially aceptable for many many years by the way)
oh and we are not there to teach just to lead a practie session




Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable,

NO it is not
again there are almost always lady leads in every class be it the main one or the practice session


But if distance is an issue, perhaps consider buying a beginners move DVD.

did you learn to dance by watching someone else on dvd????
i think not


As an experienced follower you have other routes to learn other than the beginners review class. I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class. no they didnt but it takes forever to do so
by doing it through the normal ceroc lessons and practice session Mayhem should be able to complete the beginners moves in about 6 wks or so


No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people. That's dance... not have sex with... dance. When I DANCE with people it does not matter to me one jot what gender they are, just as it wouldn't matter if I were to play badminton with them, or skittles or any other physical past-time. I lead guys quite happily, why shouldn't I? This whole thing just stinks of misplaced homophobia. So the taxi needs to talk to 'leads and follows' and not to 'guys and girls'. Whooptie doo da. They are there to help people learn to dance, if they find that they are uncomfortable with females leading then I suggest that the problem is with their own insecurities.

I can find NOTHING anywhere to say that if you attend a Ceroc night then females MUST follow and MALES must lead. Dancing is (or at least should be) fun for all.

:yeah:



I don't know where this person dances (nor do I suggest any hint of naming and shaming) but there's a whole raft of places teaching Modern Jive, Ceroc is but one of them.
I do know where she dances and the people involved as she asked me my opinion in person and its the same as you stokie although i did tell her to call ceroc hq and explain to see if they could do anything about it which sadly they cant as they allow the franchicee to decide on stuff like this.
As everyone here knows i love ceroc with a passion and it saddens me to see this happening as it sours someones fun

why is it unacceptable for there to be more leads than follows?, and also why is it ok when there are too many follows for 'women' to take up the slack as leads, but not in this particular instance for a 'man' to have to stand out for a turn?!!

it isnt unacceptable at all


Once again thanks to everyone for their comeback, it has helped me to see that the negative response that I am experiencing is, as I expected, unique in Ceroc, and that i am not being unreasonable in my request to learn the 19 beginner moves as a novice like anyone else.
i dont think it is unique in ceroc just unique in the franchise you dance at it certainly would not have happend at the franchise i

no..nor in the main class.
Just simply frowned upon and was told it would make other males uncomfortable especially beginners.
:banghead: because its still socially unaceptable which is a shame although as dancers we are trying to change this by letting more people see men leading men also as i said earlier there are almost always more women than men so to be honest all mayhem is doing by dancing lead (on most weeks) is helping out


this is a shame, not sure where you live Mayhem, but I have the habbit of poping up all over I would love you to lead me never seen you in chelmsford :tears: and yes you would love to dance with mayhem i know i do


19 !

Just out of interest, do they really teach 19 moves in the beginner classes - I usually help when there is a surplus of followers (and have never had a problem with venue managers etc with this) I am a reasonable lead - but not sure if I know 19 moves :blush:

yep there are 19 beginners moves in ceroc always used to be 25 til teh change a few years back



Go girl !



BTW, IMO, women leads are very similar to women drivers, when you get a good one they are often better then men :yeah: oi minnie what are you trying to say?????????

Maxine
25th-April-2009, 10:10 AM
Hi Mayhem and welcome to the forum. There was another similar thread to this started by Martin about 6 months ago and he was arguing the point that ladies would not like to dance with other ladies. I am a lady who dances both lead and follow. When I was a taxi I always danced both the lesson and the review class as a man

My view is yes a lot of ladies would prefer to dance with men if there were enough available men but the reality is at most venues there are not equal numbers. Also there are number of men that I am not that keen on dancing with but have to out of courtesy and do not see why that same courtesy can be extended to ladies.

When I do freestyle there are still some ladies and guys that know that I can dance as a lead and will ask me to lead them.

The only way around you current problem that I can see is that if you have a female friend who is willing to dance with you as a fixed partner for a few weeks in the intermediate class then at least you could improve your lead standard or find another venue with a more enlightened attitude.

Gadget
25th-April-2009, 01:19 PM
Playing the devils advocate here...

No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people.
No, they are not paying cash to learn to dance with people. They are paying to enter a social club that teaches folk how to dance with each other and provides an environment for people to practice dancing.
The organisers 'job' is to maintain the social rules and provide the best environment they can for all the people. Of course you can't please all the people all the time, but if the organiser sees behaviour that they think is bad for the environment and social atmosphere they are trying to maintain/portray, then they can (& should) step in and take measures to prevent it.

Normally these things are perving, dangerous dancing and less than welcoming attitude. But if an organiser thinks that same gender dancing in a revision class is detrimental to the club's atmosphere, then I can hold no fault with the action taken. In fact I would probably see the action as proving the organiser was trying to look after the club: I wouldn't expect to see many dangerous dancers or perverts tolerated in that venue :worthy:.

The only thing I would question would be the decision on why it was thought that same gender dancing in the revision class: there may be factors & information to be taken into account that are only available to the person who made the decision. Have you asked the person who made the decision why it was made? The only way to retract/reverse the decision is to identify the reasoning behind it and counter that.


The only way around you current problem that I can see is that if you have a female friend who is willing to dance with you as a fixed partner for a few weeks ~ I would amend that to say if you find a friend who is willing to follow your lead, then practice with them. If that friend is a lead, then they will be harder for you to lead, but can probably give you good advice on how to improve your lead. If they are a follower, they will be easier to lead, but will be vaguer on how you can improve.
I'm not really sure what the revision class will give you. You could grab a taxi during the freestyle and practice your lead on them: you have said that they have no problems with you leading. You will probably find that the really good dancers will be open to you leading them as well if you ask them: The best way to improve your dancing is by dancing.

philsmove
25th-April-2009, 02:13 PM
They are paying to enter a social club that teaches folk how to dance with each other and provides an environment for people to practice dancing.
.

:yeah:

and lets be honest , most people , patically at beginner level, expect and want to dance with the opposite sex

BTW have you thought about finding man who wants to learn to follow

Lory
25th-April-2009, 02:44 PM
and lets be honest , most people , patically at beginner level, expect and want to dance with the opposite sex

Actually, I just wanted to learn to dance when I was a beginner and I didn't care who with.

Oh and socialising in my books, is mixing and making friends with both sexes, not just the opposite sex.

Gadget
25th-April-2009, 04:19 PM
Yea, but you're not "most people", are you now? :kiss:

Sporty Jeff
25th-April-2009, 05:44 PM
Whoops

Sporty Jeff
25th-April-2009, 05:58 PM
19 !

Just out of interest, do they really teach 19 moves in the beginner classes - I usually help when there is a surplus of followers (and have never had a problem with venue managers etc with this) I am a reasonable lead - but not sure if I know 19 moves :blush:

(all the female leads mention on this thread are a joy to dance with :respect::worthy: - and they must have started in the beginners classes)

Go girl !


BTW, IMO, women leads are very similar to women drivers, when you get a good one they are often better then men :yeah:
Beginner moves I think: 1st move, 1st move pushspin, comb, slow comb,man spin, shoulder slide, step across, octopus, basket, side to side, yo-yo, back pass, ceroc spin, catapult, shoulder drop, arm jive, arm jive push spin, arm jive swizzle thats 18 can not think what 19 is:blush:

martingold
25th-April-2009, 06:01 PM
Beginner moves I think: 1st move, 1st move pushspin, comb, slow comb,man spin, shoulder slide, step across, octopus, basket, side to side, yo-yo, back pass, ceroc spin, catapult, shoulder drop, arm jive, arm jive push spin, arm jive swizzle thats 18 can not think what 19 is:blush:
its the shoulder slide

Sporty Jeff
25th-April-2009, 06:08 PM
its the shoulder slide
Sorry had that:confused:

martingold
25th-April-2009, 06:16 PM
Sorry had that:confused:
lol oops:blush:

martingold
25th-April-2009, 06:21 PM
Sorry had that:confused:
just cheated and went on to a certain website its the "in and out"

Sporty Jeff
25th-April-2009, 06:29 PM
:respect:
just cheated and went on to a certain website its the "in and out"

Ah the Ceroc classic move:wink: how did I forget that? Thanks at least I will be able to sleep now!

bigdjiver
25th-April-2009, 07:37 PM
:respect:

Ah the Ceroc classic move:wink: how did I forget that? Thanks at least I will be able to sleep now!If you find out how you forgot, can you tell me so I can sleep better too?

crystaltips
25th-April-2009, 07:52 PM
I think you should direct those saying "no" at the club to this thread! I started learning to lead when I had been dancing for about a year, one reason being that there was always more women than men and the ladies were getting one shot at the move before being moved off the floor for the next lot to have a go! Plus, it meant that, if me and my pals were out somewhere with no Ceroc guys, we could still get up and dance and, as I am always the tallest, I felt that duty fell to me! I didn't ask anyone if I could do it, and no-one said I couldn't. As far as I am aware, there have never been any complaints. I did feel when I started that perhaps some ladies were a bit uncomfortable with it, especially those new to dancing, as they have the stereotypical "man dancing with lady" in mind but as everyone has gotten to know me, I don't even think that's the case now. When I was a beginner, I recall the only reason I felt uncomfortable dancing with another lady was that generally, they were much shorter than me! Oh and two sets of boobs can sometimes get in the way!
Perth and Dundee have quite a few ladies who dance lead, especially in the beginners class although there are also a few who do in the inter class too. Both of our Perth taxi girls lead and (I have been told) are very good at it! That's a comment I've often heard, and I think that often ladies are actually a better lead than many (but by no means all) men because having themselves been led they know what it takes to be a good lead. And IMO that's another reason that many of the best male dancers choose to be led, to see what they need to be doing to improve their lead.
There are some fabulous lady leads out there (Tiggerbabe has the honour of being the best girl dance I have ever had!) and I thinks its very unfair that you are not being allowed to do it. IMO (again) I think more ladies should try it, because it will show them just exactly what a difficult time the guys actually have and I also believe it helps sharpen following skills, and I'm surprised the class teacher doesn't recognise that.
I really hope there is a rethink on this and you get the chance to learn lead without having to tip toe round the management. I think you should just balls it out and do it, after all, the best leaders do have balls!

Ascot Lady
26th-April-2009, 09:48 PM
This sounds so odd. If you want to be a taxi dancer you HAVE to learn to be a lead. How can it be ok for one lady to learn the lead but not another...how would the beginners know the difference???
I sometimes choose to do the repeat beginner's class as a lead, simply because I have been following for a number of years & don't want to do an intermediate class but want to help beginners. I've never been stopped from doing this, but if I had been I would have been shocked. As an experienced follower I can really empathise with beginner followers...they almost always think they have to remember the moves instead of concentrating on reading the lead. How on earth can a beginner follower 'feel' the lead from a beginner lead?

Little Feet
26th-April-2009, 09:55 PM
Oh and socialising in my books, is mixing and making friends with both sexes, not just the opposite sex.

:yeah: I think that a lot of people - ladies especially - who may start coming to a dance class on their own, are looking to meet new people and make friends, not just learn to dance. When I started dancing, because I met men in the classes, and then danced with men, I didn't get to meet many women initially which felt a bit odd. A perfect way round this is for women to lead, so that they naturally come into contact with more women - I really think it can be welcoming for new women and a great way to foster new friendships.

Phil_dB
27th-April-2009, 10:09 AM
I'm not sure where you live, but where I am there's more ceroc venues than mcdonald drive-throughs, - can't you just go to another venue?

bigdjiver
27th-April-2009, 12:24 PM
FWIW I am with the franchisee on this one.

TA Guy
27th-April-2009, 12:47 PM
Maybe some can't remember the very early days, or don't understand that for a lot of people it takes some courage to attend a dance class for the first time.
I'm sure that most would agree that the more people doing MJ the better? So I am not sure that greeting them with non-traditional same-sex dancing is actually a good thing from that point of view.
Forget the political correctness that some tend to spout on here for a moment, in reality what do you think most blokes would do if they entered a hall to see blokes dancing with blokes in the class (?!?). And there are plenty of reports of ladies saying they feel uncomfortable being forced to dance with other ladies in the class, and I have heard anecdotle evidence of ladies not returning after that.

Freestyles, where people can turn others down for reasons of 'uncomfortableness' if they wish has a natural get-out. I personally don't know anyone who thinks same-sex dancing is 'negative' in freestyles. (Mind, if all the blokes, or all the ladies, started only dancing with each other, I am sure there would be one or two complaints :))

Classes don't have that get-out, at least not without creating a scene. This is where I feel there is at least a question to be asked about whether there are any negative benefits for the evening as a whole.
BUT, I take the point about lack of leaders and other arguments made in this thread. I just point out it's not a straightforward as some on here seem to think, or maybe wish.


And there is the last thing. Same-sex dancing has no contrast, there's no Jordan to the Tatiana, or Tatiana to the Jordan, sorry, but same-sex dancing is just pants anyway!
[Warning: that last sentence is my viewpoint only. I can cannot be held liable as I obviously have the dance appreciation of a tone deaf gerbil].

Gav
27th-April-2009, 02:05 PM
[Warning: that last sentence is my viewpoint only. I can cannot be held liable as I obviously have the dance appreciation of a tone deaf gerbil].

Me and my tone-deaf Gerbil, Fluffy, take exception to that comment.
Fluffy not only considers himself to have great dance appreciation, but also likes to dance with other male Gerbils during lessons.

Twirly
27th-April-2009, 02:07 PM
This thread really has made me see red :tantrum:

And I don’t think it’s just because I did my first class as a lead last week. It was my second attempt – the first being 18 months ago, when there were too many men, and not enough women, so I chickened out. Having built my courage up again, I was somewhat disgruntled to find the same situation last week – which is virtually unheard of at that particular venue. But having screwed my courage up to give it a try, I decided that I’d paid my money just the same as all the men there, and that it was my choice to do the class as I wanted. Some of the women did seem a little puzzled when I got to them, but I just smiled at them, asked how they were and chatted a little. And they seemed fine about it.

I did get questioned in the review class – one of the guys turned to me and said, puzzled, “you’re not a beginner are you – didn’t I see you demo-ing the other week?!” Everyone in the class seemed fine with my being there as a lead and in fact, they’d have had two follows over instead of one if I hadn’t been there (three in fact, as the guy who questioned me was an experienced lead who was there helping out too – he wouldn’t have known about the demo-ing if he hadn’t been in intermediates). So clearly, most of the men in the beginners class were fairly experienced - and there were only one or two men over during the first class, so they didn't have to wait long to get back on again. The female taxi seemed happy to dance with me afterwards too – in fact she was positively encouraging.


Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable

I’m sorry, but as Stokie, said this is homophobic. Would you think such attitudes were “reasonable” if a franchisee refused to admit someone to the class because they were too old, or black? In freestyle, each to their own – but the inclusive attitude that Ceroc generally encourages makes everyone feel welcome and the majority to have fun as a consequence. In class, and review class, you dance with whoever the next person is, or you get a fixed partner if you’re that fussy.

And if someone really is worried that they may be “shown up” by a follow learning to lead in the beginners review class, then they must be a pretty appalling lead!

I would love to know the justification for the franchisee’s decision – and somewhat heavy handed techniques. I cannot quite believe they went to the effort to phone you to ask you to desist!

One last point, I suspect that what they are doing could be illegal under sex discrimination legislation. (Where are you Mr. Shnikov?!). Unless the rules of Ceroc or the franchise specifically state that men must lead and women must follow – but I doubt that any such condition is in place.

I hope that you can persuade this venue that their current attitude is short-sighted, misguided and potentially illegal as well as ethically questionable, and that you learn to lead by taking full advantage of the class that you have, after all, paid for. Best of luck!

marcusj
27th-April-2009, 04:53 PM
Can't quite believe we've got to page 3 of this thread without anyone alluding to the erotic nature of 2 women in little black dresses dancing with each other !

I dance as a girl sometimes (extremely poorly) with Maxine among others, and it does really help appreciate how hard it is to do the other half's role.

Also I do look forward to a turn around the floor with DTS and get some very strange looks sometimes, and at Storm at Camber two women came and separated us saying how wrong it was !

Liz McCaig
27th-April-2009, 05:15 PM
Most of the female beginners I have lead are happy to be led by a female - even close hold blues. The odd one is uncomfortable and if I sense this even after intros I will offer to swap partners (very rare as introducing yourself normally puts people at ease - which to be honest is same whether the person your about to dance with is male or female).

I find that most female beginners like the fact they are led by an experienced follower as they feel less intimidated to ask advice during the lesson when they are not sure of something...

...on the other hand (:stirring:) it could be just ego getting in the way at intermediate classes! Not sure how well it is taken when after the class the followers say that the female leads is the only one who "got" tonights moves :whistle: :whistle:

StokeBloke
27th-April-2009, 06:12 PM
No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people.

Playing the devils advocate here...

No, they are not paying cash to learn to dance with people. They are paying to enter a social club that teaches folk how to dance with each other and provides an environment for people to practice dancing. The organisers 'job' is to maintain the social rules and provide the best environment they can for all the people.

**naughty devil's advocate is playing splitty-splitty-hair-hair**


Taken directly from the front page of www.ceroc.com: (http://www.ceroc.com:)
Going to a Ceroc evening is a great way to meet people, have fun and keep fit all whilst learning to dance.
It would seem to me very much like Ceroc are saying that they will be taking your cash and in return you will be having an evening that involves meeting people, having fun and keeping fit all whilst learning to dance.

Everything about going to a Ceroc evening, according to their website, is based around you learning to dance. Not join our Ceroc social club with fringe benefits :eyebrow:

jivecat
27th-April-2009, 06:47 PM
Can't quite believe we've got to page 3 of this thread without anyone alluding to the erotic nature of 2 women in little black dresses dancing with each other !



Or even the erotic nature of two hunky, fit blokes dancing together. Don't underestimate it! Holds me spellbound!

Gav
27th-April-2009, 07:13 PM
I dance as a girl sometimes.

Yes, but do you follow? :na:

bigdjiver
27th-April-2009, 07:36 PM
... Everything about going to a Ceroc evening, according to their website, is based around you learning to dance. Not join our Ceroc social club with fringe benefits :eyebrow:Commercially it is the "having fun" that is most important.

I don't know, I have not checked, is there anywhere on the Ceroc website that shows same sex partners?

How much income do you think the average first-timer will bring in in their Ceroc lifetime?

How many people will they tell of their good/bad experience?

frodo
27th-April-2009, 08:12 PM
Review classes must be teaching something useful, otherwise why would anybody bother running them - so Mayhem should be entitled to join in.Really a separate issue whether Mayhem is entitled to join in and whether it is useful to her.

On usefulness review classes designed for beginners to the dance. Not for experienced dancers in the other role. The taxis are focused on teaching beginners to the dance. The issues a role switcher are trying to work may well be very different from those of a beginner.


Not commonplace? It certainly is in the beginners class where I dance, there are always women leading, not just taxis. Some women beginners ...
The commonplace referred to female/female AND male/male. It is the male/male bit that isn't common place (in my experience) in a beginner environment.

If your experience is different I'd be interested to hear it.

frodo
27th-April-2009, 08:24 PM
No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people. That's dance... not have sex with... dance. When I DANCE with people it does not matter to me one jot what gender they are
I suspect you're not in the majority there, but assuming you are, people come to dance for lots of reasons, some of which are not entirely compatible with same sex dancing. Is yours the only legitimate one.


This whole thing just stinks of misplaced homophobia. So the taxi needs to talk to 'leads and follows' and not to 'guys and girls'. Whooptie doo da. They are there to help people learn to dance, if they find that they are uncomfortable with females leading then I suggest that the problem is with their own insecurities.
The problem may well be their own insecurities, but if they walk out as beginners, they're not going to get over them.

martingold
27th-April-2009, 08:27 PM
I dance as a girl sometimes


Yes, but do you follow? :na:

now gav my thoughts were what does he mean sometimes :whistle:

frodo
27th-April-2009, 08:52 PM
I’m sorry, but as Stokie, said this is homophobic.Something may be out of the comfort zone and not why someone came to dance. Calling it unambiguously homophobic seems a a bit excessive when you cannot know the motivations involved.


Would you think such attitudes were “reasonable” if a franchisee refused to admit someone to the class because they were too old, or black?I don't see the relevance. They aren't being refused admission, just not getting taught both roles.


One last point, I suspect that what they are doing could be illegal under sex discrimination legislation.
I don't see the discrimination.

Everyone is taught one role; it is balanced. I suspect far more balanced/less discriminatory than is typically the case.

StokeBloke
27th-April-2009, 08:52 PM
The problem may well be their own insecurities, but if they walk out as beginners, they're not going to get over them.
I was talking about this petulant Queen of the Taxi dancers who seems to be the only one having a problem with this. I firmly suggest that she may be a badger fancier who is in denial, and unfortunately a position of (a teeny weeny bit) of power. It would seem that the rest of the sorry shower in this story are just 'backing her up'.

Shame on Ceroc HQ for washing its hands and not sorting this little issue out when it was brought to their attention :rolleyes:

jivecat
27th-April-2009, 10:33 PM
Really a separate issue whether Mayhem is entitled to join in and whether it is useful to her. You seemed to be implying that as there were other ways for her to learn it didn't matter if she wasn't allowed to attend the review class.

As an experienced follower you have other routes to learn other than the beginners review class. I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class. I would contest that. If I was seriously trying to learn to lead review classes would be a major resource, targetted as they are on teaching the beginner's moves.



On usefulness review classes designed for beginners to the dance. Not for experienced dancers in the other role. The taxis are focused on teaching beginners to the dance. I just don't see this distinction - part of the content of a beginner's class might be directed at a beginner to the dance but much of it will be appropriate for beginners to each role.


The issues a role switcher are trying to work may well be very different from those of a beginner. Maybe, at times, but this is not a sufficient reason to exclude a willing pupil.



The commonplace referred to female/female AND male/male. It is the male/male bit that isn't common place (in my experience) in a beginner environment.

If your experience is different I'd be interested to hear it.[/QUOTE]I agree that the problem would be much more difficult if a man wanted to attend classes as a follower. In fact I think it would cause large-scale walkouts or other avoidance tactics. Even so it is now commonplace to see men dancing together at big venues and weekenders. However, there's a big gap between accepting that a minority of men are happy to dance together and accepting it as an activity that the majority will join in with. I don't personally see what all the fuss is about but I do accept that many MJ men will not be happy about dancing with other men. Until they drag themselves into the 21st century they might like to watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuJhpAhnUa8
There's no need to be too shocked, guys, they're brothers.

I don't think that the same kind of attitudes prevail with women as they tend to be more comfortable with physical touch and more relaxed about their sexuality than many men, as well as being much more habituated to seeing other women dance together. I still find women who go all out to avoid having to have a same-sex dance partner somewhat pathetic, though.

Gadget
28th-April-2009, 02:36 AM
:confused: This is a partner dance? With a defined role of lead and follow yes? It is naturally divisive. Ladies want the gentlemen to act like gentlemen and gentlemen want the ladies to act like ladies.
Some ladies can act the role of a gentleman better than some gents, and some gents can act the role of a lady better than some ladies.

Ceroc is a social club - society does not change from one side of the venue doors to the other; you may wish it to be otherwise, but some people will still be arrogant butt holes and some will still be lecherous perverts and most will still be uncomfortable with same sex getting intimate with each other.
Ceroc is not aimed at you or me - it's aimed at 'them': the general public. And if it is seen that you have to dance with a same sex partner and it stops 'them' from attending the venue I agree with stopping the practice.


...I decided that I’d paid my money just the same as all the men there, and that it was my choice to do the class as I wanted.
I have paid my money: I will dance only with those I deem worthy to dance with. I will walk across the floor with my drinks because I have to sit there and the bar is here. I will lift my partner in the air, throw and catch them because I am good enough to do so. If you are not giving me a good enough dance I will simply stop and walk off the floor. I am here to dance - I will use any space on the dance floor to perform to the music; it's not my fault other people get in my way. I will do lewd things with my partner in full view of everyone else. I will stand on the edge of the floor and watch all the pretty young ladies jiggling about. I will do the moves my way in class and talk through what the teacher is saying. Why not? I have paid my money. :rolleyes:


I’m sorry, but as Stokie, said this is homophobic. Would you think such attitudes were “reasonable” if a franchisee refused to admit someone to the class because they were too old, or black? In freestyle, each to their own – but the inclusive attitude that Ceroc generally encourages makes everyone feel welcome and the majority to have fun as a consequence. In class, and review class, you dance with whoever the next person is, or you get a fixed partner if you’re that fussy. Skin colour, age, size, race, religion are all meaningless in terms of dancing. In Ceroc, even ability means very little. But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality that you cannot make it asexual.

You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you): The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family. You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'. You don't have to be homophobic to be uncomfortable with dancing with a same sex partner. You don't have an "attitude" because you don't like dancing with same sex partners. These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex. And you expect them to be 100% OK with having a stranger of the same sex put their hands over them and move them about? It's not being 'fussy' or a 'prude' : It's being brought up with manners, etiquette and decorum. With a moral upbringing that respects other people. With an instilled biblical sense of "right" and "wrong".
It takes time to understand that a dance is just a dance. That you can get up close and personal without violating your ethics or damning your immortal soul to eternal fire and damnation.


{And for some this 'time' is measured in seconds rather than days/weeks :wink::devil:}

One last point, I suspect that what they are doing could be illegal under sex discrimination legislation. (Where are you Mr. Shnikov?!). Unless the rules of Ceroc or the franchise specifically state that men must lead and women must follow – but I doubt that any such condition is in place.Some of the banners actually say "Men- you lead. Ladies- you follow: try and let the men lead." or words to that effect.

Personally, any time I am writing or talking about the roles I try and use "lead" and "follow" rather than "men" and "women"


Taken directly from the front page of www.ceroc.com: (http://www.ceroc.com:)
Going to a Ceroc evening is a great way to meet people, have fun and keep fit all whilst learning to dance.
It would seem to me very much like Ceroc are saying that they will be taking your cash and in return you will be having an evening that involves meeting people, having fun and keeping fit all whilst learning to dance.

Everything about going to a Ceroc evening, according to their website, is based around you learning to dance. Not join our Ceroc social club with fringe benefits :eyebrow:
Yup.
And how many folk would "have fun" if they had to dance with the same sex all night?

Sorry to all the devilishly handsome blokes out there, but I actually have fun dancing with women - they are much prettier, smell nicer, and move with more grace. I love the female form and being able to have it respond to my touch is exciting, thrilling and fun. Having another man at my fingers may be amusing and entertaining, but just doesn't do it for me the way a woman can.

BTW It's an important hair-splitting: The organisers are providing and maintaining the best environment they can for dancers. They are the ones who are entitled to make the decisions and make the rules; not the dancers themselves. The organisers are responsible for policing the rules and giving the dancers the best opportunity for enjoying themselves. If they say this is how it's going to be, then the dancer either conforms, finds another venue or tries to get the ruling over-turned. Because it's their venue, their night and their rules, then they had every right to impose a ruling. They could say you're not allowed to dance freestyle unless you include at least one hallelujah in every dance.

The problem may well be their own insecurities, but if they walk out as beginners, they're not going to get over them.No, they are not. It's not about overcoming insecurities, it's about dancing. And they are not going to return to learn that. And they are not going to bring their cash back either.

You feel victimised and don't return to the venue: one less attendance. Two beginners feel uncomfortable and don't return: two less attendances that will never be repeat customers. That's double the money lost. It makes economic sense to stop a practice that may turn folk away.

Similarly it would make economic sense (when there is a massive excess of followers) to put on a special class for followers wanting to learn to lead (or visa versa): at least it's advertised and people can join/avoid without any stigma.

Lory
28th-April-2009, 09:11 AM
But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality
-snip-
These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex.
I've been sitting here, trying to make sense of everything you've written but to me, the whole lot contradicts itself...

I'm sure there's an equal amount of people who are turned off of partner dancing because its so entwined with sex and sexuality, to those who come 'because' of it ..

Take those 'first nighters' for instance.. some come along 'with' their other halves and I should imagine its quite hard for a lot of couples to see 'their' partners, dancing with the opposite sex all night. A lot of insecurities will be highlighted but if some of the partners were of the same sex, it could be quite reassuring ;) Showing that its NOT just all about sex, its about 'the dance'!

Also, I know if I were in the line up on my first night and a man 'accidentally' brushed my boob, I'd be far more suspicious than if a woman did! And for some, that might be enough to turn them off of coming back!

A lot of my NON dancing friends make jokes that Ceroc is some sort of secret undercover swingers club. :rolleyes: They can't get it into their heads, that people go, just for the pure love of dancing and I'm afraid, reading stuff like this..... the fact you 'have' to dance with the opposite sex, just goes to reinforce these views. :banghead:

marcusj
28th-April-2009, 10:00 AM
A lot of my NON dancing friends make jokes that Ceroc is some sort of secret undercover swingers club. :rolleyes:
As a friend of mine says .... Ceroc Ceroc the knocking shop :wink:

marcusj
28th-April-2009, 10:03 AM
Yes, but do you follow? :na:
As long as they yank hard enough !

Twirly
28th-April-2009, 10:45 AM
I’d just like to clarify one thing – I am not talking about same sex dancing. I am talking about women being allowed to lead in class, and in review class. Nowhere have I suggested (or anyone else) that people should be forced to dance in freestyle with members of the same sex.

What I also don’t understand from Mayhem’s original post is why, if the venue wish to discourage same sex dancing, she was allowed to do the beginners class as a lead, but prevented from doing the review class? Surely she should be barred from doing both, or neither?


:confused: This is a partner dance? With a defined role of lead and follow yes? It is naturally divisive. Ladies want the gentlemen to act like gentlemen and gentlemen want the ladies to act like ladies.

Most of the time – yes. But it’s not a strict rule, so far as I’m aware. If it is, then women should not be allowed to lead, end of story.


Ceroc is a social club - society does not change from one side of the venue doors to the other; you may wish it to be otherwise, but some people will still be arrogant butt holes and some will still be lecherous perverts and most will still be uncomfortable with same sex getting intimate with each other.

So does that mean that such attitudes should be indulged and therefore encouraged? Just because a man is lecherous, or hurts his partner, should the woman (or man who is following) just put up with it, or should they do something about it?


Ceroc is not aimed at you or me - it's aimed at 'them': the general public. And if it is seen that you have to dance with a same sex partner and it stops 'them' from attending the venue I agree with stopping the practice.

I disagree. Ceroc is aimed at me. I was once a beginner, and I carried on doing it. I still get something from classes, or I wouldn't go. And clearly Mayhem does too. What about protecting and encouraging the existing, repeat customer who has shown loyalty and longevity and has already given you lots of business? If you continually encourage new customers at the expense of the old, you’ll end up with a class permanently full of beginners as the established dancers get bored and go off to do something else. And so your beginners will never progress – dancing with those with more experience is one way to improve your dancing. If there aren’t any, then the venue will stagnate.


I have paid my money: I will dance only with those I deem worthy to dance with. I will walk across the floor with my drinks because I have to sit there and the bar is here. I will lift my partner in the air, throw and catch them because I am good enough to do so. If you are not giving me a good enough dance I will simply stop and walk off the floor. I am here to dance - I will use any space on the dance floor to perform to the music; it's not my fault other people get in my way. I will do lewd things with my partner in full view of everyone else. I will stand on the edge of the floor and watch all the pretty young ladies jiggling about. I will do the moves my way in class and talk through what the teacher is saying. Why not? I have paid my money. :rolleyes:

Not the same thing at all :rolleyes: Those are issues of common courtesy, safety or actual rules (no aerials). The venue I was dancing at has female leads, therefore it is not against the rules. As we have enshrined in law in this country gender equality, I did nothing wrong by leading. I came specifically to do the beginners class for the first time. Why should a man, purely because he’s a man, take priority over me in beginners class when he’s a competent lead and then does the intermediate class? Why could one of them not have stepped out of the class?


Skin colour, age, size, race, religion are all meaningless in terms of dancing.

Not if someone is prejudiced.


In Ceroc, even ability means very little. But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality that you cannot make it asexual.

In beginners class and beginners review class?! :lol:


You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you): The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family. You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'. You don't have to be homophobic to be uncomfortable with dancing with a same sex partner. You don't have an "attitude" because you don't like dancing with same sex partners. These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex. And you expect them to be 100% OK with having a stranger of the same sex put their hands over them and move them about? It's not being 'fussy' or a 'prude' : It's being brought up with manners, etiquette and decorum. With a moral upbringing that respects other people. With an instilled biblical sense of "right" and "wrong".

It takes time to understand that a dance is just a dance. That you can get up close and personal without violating your ethics or damning your immortal soul to eternal fire and damnation.

Biblical? In a Ceroc class?! The bible hasn’t had any influence on my attitudes to right and wrong since I was about 15, and luckily for me I live in a very diverse society, both spiritually and culturally. I’m afraid that this comes across as one step away from US Baptist minister ethics.

Whilst I might disagree with the level of sexuality you see in a simple dance, I do take your point with regard to intimacy. But I find this ludicrous in terms of the beginners class. As I said at the start, we are not talking about dancing in freestyle, or blues dancing. At the end of the review class, I was chatting to some of the follows as they wanted to know stuff about Ceroc. Before parting, I did say to them “if anyone fancies letting me practise all 4 of my new beginners moves on the, then do come and ask me” as I wouldn’t dream of putting them on the spot by asking them to dance. I was even pretty hesitant about asking the female taxi if I could lead her!


I love the female form and being able to have it respond to my touch is exciting, thrilling and fun. Having another man at my fingers may be amusing and entertaining, but just doesn't do it for me the way a woman can.

Now who’s coming across as a perv?! :rofl: Just how do you think that would make a beginner feel, if they knew that was going through your head when you danced with them?


BTW It's an important hair-splitting: The organisers are providing and maintaining the best environment they can for dancers. They are the ones who are entitled to make the decisions and make the rules; not the dancers themselves.

I agree – but I also think that such decisions should be questioned. I would still love to know the reasons behind the decision to ban Mayhem from just the review class.




Also, I know if I were in the line up on my first night and a man 'accidentally' brushed my boob, I'd be far more suspicious than if a woman did! And for some, that might be enough to turn them off of coming back!

Totally agree. There are a number of men women are obliged to dance with in class who are so pervy that it can put beginners off. When I first started, there were men in class whom I dreaded having to run through the moves with. None of the women leads were a problem, and I’d get to ask their advice on things as well.

bigdjiver
28th-April-2009, 11:11 AM
... I'm sure there's an equal amount of people who are turned off of partner dancing because its so entwined with sex and sexuality, to those who come 'because' of it ...And they come to MJ because ...?


... Take those 'first nighters' for instance.. some come along 'with' their other halves and I should imagine its quite hard for a lot of couples to see 'their' partners, dancing with the opposite sex all night. A lot of insecurities will be highlighted but if some of the partners were of the same sex, it could be quite reassuring ;) Showing that its NOT just all about sex, its about 'the dance'! ...Jealousy is not a numbers game. Too often it just takes one dance where another half is seen to be really enjoying themself and the pair are gone forever.


... Also, I know if I were in the line up on my first night and a man 'accidentally' brushed my boob, I'd be far more suspicious than if a woman did! And for some, that might be enough to turn them off of coming back! ...If you had the question "why is she dancing with women?" in mind, and then ... ?


.... A lot of my NON dancing friends make jokes that Ceroc is some sort of secret undercover swingers club. :rolleyes: They can't get it into their heads, that people go, just for the pure love of dancing and I'm afraid, reading stuff like this..... the fact you 'have' to dance with the opposite sex, just goes to reinforce these views. :banghead:...If you came with the "swingers" worry, then the teacher tells you never to refuse a dance, and then you see UCP you would worry some more, then you see same-sex dancing ...

Lory
28th-April-2009, 11:46 AM
And they come to MJ because ...? Are you being serious? :what:


If you had the question "why is she dancing with women?" in mind, and then ... ?

Do you mean.. because she might 'FANCY THEM' :really: :doh::rofl:

David Franklin
28th-April-2009, 12:14 PM
Skin colour, age, size, race, religion are all meaningless in terms of dancing. In Ceroc, even ability means very little. But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality that you cannot make it asexual.Bullcrap. Or there's something very odd going on with the ballet class for 3 year olds that my daughter Katie was at yesterday.


You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you): The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family.Contrary to some stereotypes, most people who do Ceroc do have friends, you know.


You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'. You don't have to be homophobic to be uncomfortable with dancing with a same sex partner. You don't have an "attitude" because you don't like dancing with same sex partners. These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex. And you expect them to be 100% OK with having a stranger of the same sex put their hands over them and move them about?I've been in beginner Salsa classes where there were a lot of men over. They were paired together. I don't think anyone had a particular issue with it. (They weren't happy with the idea that there'd be a 3:1 M/F ratio, but there weren't any "OMG, I'm dancing with a man" problems).


It's not being 'fussy' or a 'prude' : It's being brought up with manners,
etiquette and decorum. With a moral upbringing that respects other people. With an instilled biblical sense of "right" and "wrong".Did you really mean that? Was it supposed to be a parody and it came across wrong?

If not. Wow. Just wow.


And how many folk would "have fun" if they had to dance with the same sex all night?Careful with those straw-man arguments, if they catch fire, you might get burnt.


BTW It's an important hair-splitting: The organisers are providing and maintaining the best environment they can for dancers. They are the ones who are entitled to make the decisions and make the rules; not the dancers themselves.And the dancers are entitled to give them a hard time about those decisions.

In particular, I'd have to question why organisers think follows are going to be traumatized by dancing with a woman (despite lots of anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and yet they ignore the many leads creepy enough to really traumatize beginners.

bigdjiver
28th-April-2009, 12:40 PM
... What I also don’t understand from Mayhem’s original post is why, if the venue wish to discourage same sex dancing, she was allowed to do the beginners class as a lead, but prevented from doing the review class? If same sex dancing was the problem she would be prevented from both.

moved:
When I first started, there were men in class whom I dreaded having to run through the moves with. and you had to endure the discomfort from zero to threer times in a typical lesson over 45 minutes. In a review class around here it will be more like 3 to 7 encounters with the same partner in 30 minutes.


...What about protecting and encouraging the existing, repeat customer who has shown loyalty and longevity and has already given you lots of business?... With each new first timer comes a new circle of contacts, and the opportunity to sell a beginners workshop. Look at the distribution of types of workshops on offer and you will see where the bulk of the business is.

robd
28th-April-2009, 12:44 PM
You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you)

Maybe it's my mind or maybe it's Franck's Southport class but when I first read this I was sure it said thrusting yourself with them (or asking them to thrust you) :rolleyes:


In particular, I'd have to question why organisers think follows are going to be traumatized by dancing with a woman (despite lots of anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and yet they ignore the many leads creepy enough to really traumatize beginners.

:yeah:

Great point David. I daresay many more beginner ladies have been put off by sleazy/seedy/inconsiderate men than by having to dance with another female.

bigdjiver
28th-April-2009, 12:52 PM
...
I'm sure there's an equal amount of people who are turned off of partner dancing because its so entwined with sex and sexuality, to those who come 'because' of it .. Why would those people come to a partner dance like MJ? There is pole dancing, belly dancing, contemporary dancing (which is 100% female around here.) and others.

Dreadful Scathe
28th-April-2009, 01:33 PM
I am quite shocked at this. I am sure that the franchise owner has a good reason and it might be worth a chat with them when you are not at a venue.


The only good reason i can think of is trying to stop a disruptive person from putting the taxi dancers off during the beginners recap. But that doesn't sound likely from what has been said.


No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people.

I think it would be reasonable to prevent disruption, but simply changing to practicing lead when you have been a follow is hardly that. Its certainly not valid or reasonable to maintain an archaic "man leads woman" structure - a recap is a dance class too, not a social pairing.


:confused: This is a partner dance? With a defined role of lead and follow yes? It is naturally divisive.

Yes of course, and that is why there should be more people learning both lead and follow roles - its good for them and its good for MJ generally.



Ceroc is a social club - society does not change from one side of the venue doors to the other; you may wish it to be otherwise, but some people will still be arrogant butt holes and some will still be lecherous perverts and most will still be uncomfortable with same sex getting intimate with each other.

I have never seen anyone get intimate at a Ceroc venue, same sex or otherwise. Dancing does not count, because touching etc...is really kind of necessary and no more intimate than any other pursuit that involves that victorian evil of "touching".


Ceroc is not aimed at you or me - it's aimed at 'them': the general public.

I am the general public. Not all of them obviously, just one of them!



Skin colour, age, size, race, religion are all meaningless in terms of dancing. In Ceroc, even ability means very little. But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality that you cannot make it asexual.

I think it is amusing that you can say "skin colour, age etc..." are all meaningless in terms of dancing but sex is not. I think you are taking a limited view of dance. Street Dance, African Bush Dance, Scottish Highland Dancing with your Granny, Night Club 2 step...are they all entwined with sex and sexuality ? I don't think they are - a lot of partner dances can be, yes, but it is as much about cameraderie as sex. A shared moment of joy is not necessarily a precursor to booking a hotel room. And where you do a partner dance regularly as a hobby, then clearly it is mainly about the dance, not a social courting event .



The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family. You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'.

No it doesn't...false conclusion! It pulls you toward "dance partner", any other label you want to apply is up to you as an individual, depending on your tasts, preconceptions, upbringing, weirdness quotient etc...



With a moral upbringing that respects other people. With an instilled biblical sense of "right" and "wrong".

Biblical right and wrong is pretty much discredited nowadays. :) And how can a moral upbringing that respects other people not allow people to learn dance if they happen to be the same sex - doesn't sound like respect, it sounds more like dissaproval.


It takes time to understand that a dance is just a dance.

For some people, I'm sure it does, but I'm also sure they have trouble with social events generally.



I'm sure there's an equal amount of people who are turned off of partner dancing because its so entwined with sex and sexuality, to those who come 'because' of it ..

I'm not sure any two people have have the same preconception on what a modern jive night is going to entail. If they start going, they may or may not like it for whatever reason. Thats life.


Take those 'first nighters' for instance.. some come along 'with' their other halves and I should imagine its quite hard for a lot of couples to see 'their' partners, dancing with the opposite sex all night. A lot of insecurities will be highlighted but if some of the partners were of the same sex, it could be quite reassuring ;) Showing that its NOT just all about sex, its about 'the dance'!

Indeed. There is a huge social element to any dance night, and in that respect it isn't just about the dance - you do get favourite dancers, favourite people and, heaven forbid, friends. So it would be reassuring for your actual partner to see a dance night for what it is - a social pursuit :)


Also, I know if I were in the line up on my first night and a man 'accidentally' brushed my boob, I'd be far more suspicious than if a woman did! And for some, that might be enough to turn them off of coming back!

I probably waited to brush your boob on the 3rd or 4th dance we had - and then approximately every 4 dances after that. Thats about the right ratio ;) :what:

Lou
28th-April-2009, 01:51 PM
To go back to the original point:


Next day I spoke to the franchisee who backed her manager saying she was a good manager, and did not want to upset or lose her, but not only that she also said ladies would be uncomfortable dancing with other ladies, and the taxi dancers would feel threatened by having a good dancer in the beginner class, and it was for beginners only, which is what I am where leading is concerned! To cut a long story short, I have danced the past two weeks in the practice, checking with the taxi's if it was ok, and the ladies how they felt, as the Franchisee & Manager were absent, and they were all more than fine, in fact very pleased to have me there. but now I've had a message left on my answer machine telling to cease again.

Speaking from the point of view of someone who learned to dance lead several years ago...

The majority of ladies do not feel threatened or uncomfortable dancing with other ladies on a beginner class situation. Some do, it's true - but by far the overwhelming majority are quite happy to dance with another lady. Even more so, if it's a case of wildly unbalanced numbers! We'd rather dance, than spend most of the class queuing to move around. (In fact, from my experience, that's more the reason that beginners don't return - the imbalance of numbers meaning we have to watch from the sides all too often).

Even total beginners are grateful to the experienced ladies who help out as leaders. It's easier to help them, as we can put ourselves in their shoes. I think this vastly outweighs any issues with intimacy. :)

Anyway - on that subject - this is a Beginners Ceroc class! These classes are designed with this potential problem of intimacy in mind. It's designed not to be up close and personal. It's not blues! It's not even the close hold of ballroom dancing. I mean, only a few years ago they changed the hold in the Comb & the way it was taught to make sure you can keep your distance if you chose to!

Mayhem & Twirly - please don't let this get in the way of you learning to lead. Personally, I found that learning to lead helped my following to improve immensely. And the vast vast vast majority of women will be appreciative of your unselfishness willingness to help out when there's unbalanced numbers. :flower:

As far as your review class goes, Mayhem, I think you'll just have to accept that the Taxi Manager is being unreasonable, but nothing you will say will make her change her mind, I fear. It's probably down to her own low confidence level. See if you can arrange a dance or two with some more experienced ladies during the freestyle, and ask them if they'd mind if you practiced on them. That often worked for me. :nice:

Lory
28th-April-2009, 02:07 PM
Why would those people come to a partner dance like MJ? There is pole dancing, belly dancing, contemporary dancing (which is 100% female around here.) and others.

When I was at primary school, we did 'country dancing' and my partner happened to be a boy called Toby Ross (hello Toby, if your out there :na: ) he was about a foot shorter than me and believe me, there was nothing remotely sexual about it...

... but, I absolutely LOVED those lessons and I liked the fact we had partners.. as it made it more FUN!

So, I wonder what that was all about then :confused:

Sadly BigD, I think all too many people think like you and it prevents a lot of people ever starting 'partner dancing', as they believe, as do some of my non-dancing friends, that everyone who goes, must go, to get some kind of sexual gratification.


I probably waited to brush your boob on the 3rd or 4th dance we had - and then approximately every 4 dances after that. Thats about the right ratio ;) :what:
Ahh that explains why every 4th dance is better than the rest. I'm getting my sexual gratification! :cheers::clap:

Dreadful Scathe
28th-April-2009, 02:25 PM
Ahh that explains why every 4th dance is better than the rest. I'm getting my sexual gratification! :cheers::clap:

Yes, both me and biddjiver go by that ratio ;)

Lory
28th-April-2009, 02:35 PM
Yes, both me and biddjiver go by that ratio ;)

:lol: It'd be even funnier, if I didn't think there was 'some' truth in that :sick::rofl::rofl:

Gav
28th-April-2009, 02:41 PM
Yes, both me and biddjiver go by that ratio ;)

I've been missing out. I must increase my ratio to make up for it. :yum:

sunnybunny
28th-April-2009, 05:49 PM
I daresay many more beginner ladies have been put off by sleazy/seedy/inconsiderate men than by having to dance with another female.


:yeah:

bigdjiver
28th-April-2009, 05:51 PM
... Sadly BigD, I think all too many people think like you and it prevents a lot of people ever starting 'partner dancing', as they believe, as do some of my non-dancing friends, that everyone who goes, must go, to get some kind of sexual gratification... I am well aware that love of dancing is the main motivation.

I have been at a considerable disadvantage in this thread because I have done a lot of statistical analyses on the Ceroc Central database, and have been wrestling with confidentially and other issues.

As could be expected there are men that deter first timers from returning.

Unexpectedly there also appear to be women that tend to deter first timer ladies when they are present, and there are women taxi-dancers that appear to deter them even more. There are, predictably far more taxi dancers that do a good job in retaining recruits, and there are some that have incredible records.

As well as the statistical data I have the experience of a local venue that was damaged, perhaps even fatally damaged, by ladies who wanted to lead. There was a surplus of experienced male dancers. I used to leave early to reduce competition for ladies, believing it to be for the good of the venue. I wanted it to succeed.

Some ladies would arrive after the class and dance together. Then they would dance with other ladies as leads, increasing the leader imbalance even more. I regularly left early. I do not have the benefits of the stats in this case, but we did not do a good job of retaining men or ladies, and the venue folded.

As I posted, I am with the franchisee on this one.

Ascot Lady
28th-April-2009, 06:12 PM
In particular, I'd have to question why organisers think follows are going to be traumatized by dancing with a woman (despite lots of anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and yet they ignore the many leads creepy enough to really traumatize beginners.

:yeah:

This is SUCH a valid comment. I've known followers with a year's experience being reduced to tears/hiding in the loos to avoid certain creepy leads. Even though managers have been made aware, the men are still around. I can appreciate the predicament the managers are in, but it must affect the likelihood of beginners/more experienced followers returning to that venue. The follower has to either become a 'selective refuser' (not really an option for a beginner) or stop going to the venue.

So THANK YOU to all you completely fabulous leads who keep us coming back for more!! :D

I wonder if a poll would be of any interest to ceroc franchisees?

Lory
28th-April-2009, 06:54 PM
As well as the statistical data I have the experience of a local venue that was damaged, perhaps even fatally damaged, by ladies who wanted to lead.
~snip~

Some ladies would arrive after the class and dance together. Then they would dance with other ladies as leads, increasing the leader imbalance even more. Oh please...

... these ladies obviously liked dancing together and if they weren't allowed to, then they may not have turned up at all. So, the imbalance would have remained the same (not increased) but the venue would have simply been 2x entrance fees down!

Lory
28th-April-2009, 07:05 PM
And further more..

most venues have women over and I know I'd rather dance with another woman any day, than have to queue up or not dance at all..

A big :worthy: thank you to all you lovely ladies who CAN and DO lead me so beautifully, from time to time :worthy::cheers:

Agente Secreto
28th-April-2009, 09:19 PM
Am I missing the point of this thread entirely. I'm not picking up anything that tells me the venue is discouraging Mayhem from leading - just discouraging her from going into the refresher class. I don't agree with the venue's reasoning but it is clearly their choice about the criteria for permitting access to the refresher class. Outside of that Mayhem is free to lead to her heart's content.

Some good stuff about same-sex dancing. I do agree with those that have said that male follows would possibly cause the average beginner male to run for cover. I suspect that male follows will continue to be a rarer occurrence than female leads for some time to come. I don't agree it's homophobia either, some people simply have different thresholds and we need to respect that.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

NZ Monkey
28th-April-2009, 09:41 PM
You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you): The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family.

You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'. You don't have to be homophobic to be uncomfortable with dancing with a same sex partner. You don't have an "attitude" because you don't like dancing with same sex partners. These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex. And you expect them to be 100% OK with having a stranger of the same sex put their hands over them and move them about?I wonder what these guys would say about that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2v7GFAI_2k

frodo
28th-April-2009, 11:42 PM
these ladies obviously liked dancing together and if they weren't allowed to, then they may not have turned up at all. So, the imbalance would have remained the same (not increased) but the venue would have simply been 2x entrance fees down!
Only if they only dance with each other. If they lead, there is less opportunity for males to lead.

The ladies who turned up themselves benefit. Some other ladies probably also benefited in the short term.

They were bad news for male leads who did the class, but then have less opportunity to freestyle.



I, like most people on here, can't understand what the problem is. :confused:

Surely, having people at a venue who can both lead and follow, is a bonus for everyone?
See above. It is good for a subset of people, and bad for others. Being good for everyone depends on the implicit qualifications you place on the everyone set.



...most venues have women over and I know I'd rather dance with another woman any day, than have to queue up or not dance at all..

A big :worthy: thank you to all you lovely ladies who CAN and DO lead me so beautifully, from time to time :worthy::cheers:
I don't believe anyone is disputing it is of benefit in your situation, or to the OP.

The question is whether that outweighs any disbenefit to others.

Twirly
29th-April-2009, 10:15 AM
I am well aware that love of dancing is the main motivation.

I have been at a considerable disadvantage in this thread because I have done a lot of statistical analyses on the Ceroc Central database, and have been wrestling with confidentially and other issues.

As could be expected there are men that deter first timers from returning.

Unexpectedly there also appear to be women that tend to deter first timer ladies when they are present, and there are women taxi-dancers that appear to deter them even more. There are, predictably far more taxi dancers that do a good job in retaining recruits, and there are some that have incredible records.

Interesting. I am curious as to how the reasons for a first timer not returning have been established and logged? When I first started, I was taken along once or possibly twice by someone, and then didn’t go again for three or four months as I had things that I needed to get out of the way to free up the time for regular classes. But no-one ever asked me about my experience or why I didn’t go back – I just got a free pass sent around the time I did go back, which was great! (Actually, Ceroc’s failure to ask for customer feedback is one of the things that really bugs me. I did see a “suggestions box” at Greenwich once – but there was no paper and no pens :rolleyes:

Can you also confirm how many first time women are put off by only getting to dance for half the class/review class as there aren’t enough men? This really pissed me off when I first started.

Had my second class as a lead last night, which I enjoyed even more than last weeks. And I had both women and the taxis thanking me for “helping out” as there were twice as many women as men in the class! I even plucked up the courage to ask two of them who had seemed comfortable with me in class to dance, although I checked first that they were happy to dance with a woman who had barely any moves. One helped me nail one move from last week. The other, well I think that I might’ve been the only person who asked her to dance all night – and she was incredibly grateful, as not only did she get to dance, but she was also asking for my help as a follow with getting a move right. However I’ve just realised that I’m still utterly cr@p at remembering the names of moves!

David Franklin
29th-April-2009, 10:27 AM
Interesting. I am curious as to how the reasons for a first timer not returning have been established and logged? When I first started, I was taken along once or possibly twice by someone, and then didn’t go again for three or four months as I had things that I needed to get out of the way to free up the time for regular classes. But no-one ever asked me about my experience or why I didn’t go back – I just got a free pass sent around the time I did go back, which was great! (Actually, Ceroc’s failure to ask for customer feedback is one of the things that really bugs me. I did see a “suggestions box” at Greenwich once – but there was no paper and no pens :rolleyes:From the frequent use of "appear" in BigD's post, I'm guessing some kind of correlation analysis was performed.

(e.g. "We have noticed that when Sleazy Sid comes to the venue, the chance of a beginner follow returning is 23%, but when he's absent, it's 29%").

It is a long time since I've done stats, and it was never a major topic in my studies, but I am very doubtful any such analysis would stand up to significance testing. (In other words, in a large population where, you're always going to find interesting correlations, but they won't be "real", they will simply be random coincidence).

Of course, it's hard to say for sure without the hard data.


Can you also confirm how many first time women are put off by only getting to dance for half the class/review class as there aren’t enough men? This really pissed me off when I first started.Will be interested to see the response to this, as I'd expect this to be amenable to statistical analysis.


Had my second class as a lead last night, which I enjoyed even more than last weeks. And I had both women and the taxis thanking me for “helping out” as there were twice as many women as men in the class!:clap:

Lory
29th-April-2009, 10:39 AM
Only if they only dance with each other.
Yep, and that's what Bigd said they did ;)

bigdjiver
29th-April-2009, 11:01 AM
Interesting. I am curious as to how the reasons for a first timer not returning have been established and logged? ...I know nothing about any analyses of reasons why done by anybody. I was interested in the broad question of how the MF ratio affected the number of members that dropped out. I payed particular attention to first timers.

As could be expected the MF ratio was a minor consideration in whether people came back. What matters is if people enjoy themselves. You could probably have an all female group which flourished. (Daytime MJ for mums with schoolkids?). I would guess that an all male group could work too.

David Franklin
29th-April-2009, 11:04 AM
Only if they only dance with each other. Yep, and that's what Bigd said they did ;)

Actually, no. He expressely said they danced as leads with other women too (emphasis mine):


Some ladies would arrive after the class and dance together. Then they would dance with other ladies as leads, increasing the leader imbalance even more.I must say, I find myself thinking there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye. I've never seen a venue with more than 3 or 4 women dancing as leads, and I've rarely seen even that unless there are a lot of women left over.

So if you have a venue with a surplus of experienced male leads, and at the same time lots of women wanting to take the lead themselves, I suspect there was some other dynamic going on. Which I further suspect might have had more to do with the venue losing popularity than anything else.

All supposition on my part, of course.

bigdjiver
29th-April-2009, 11:18 AM
... So if you have a venue with a surplus of experienced male leads, and at the same time lots of women wanting to take the lead themselves, I suspect there was some other dynamic going on. Which I further suspect might have had more to do with the venue losing popularity than anything else.

All supposition on my part, of course.To me it looked like those ladies just liked dancing as leads, and probably thought they were helping by giving beginners a dance. Being from a different organisation than most of the eperienced leads there may have been an element of showing their followers how it felt when done right, and not wanted to dance with the experienced men because they were doing it their way. Being younger they may have felt uncomfortable about asking the older newcomers to dance. The culture clash between Ceroc and another MJ style was probably a big factor. A house divided ...

Twirly
29th-April-2009, 11:24 AM
Unexpectedly there also appear to be women that tend to deter first timer ladies when they are present


I know nothing about any analyses of reasons why done by anybody. I was interested in the broad question of how the MF ratio affected the number of members that dropped out. I payed particular attention to first timers.

As could be expected the MF ratio was a minor consideration in whether people came back. What matters is if people enjoy themselves.

I’m really confused now. How did you infer that it was women who put the first timers off if no-one has actually asked them why they didn’t come back? I will admit that in the context of this thread, I did read your earlier post as meaning that female leads put first timers off coming back. I also thought that you had evidence of this – but maybe not?

Obviously, people are only going to come back if they enjoy themselves (men or women). But it would be interesting to find out why they don’t, though I suspect that we’ll never know for sure.

crystaltips
29th-April-2009, 12:57 PM
...

...on the other hand (:stirring:) it could be just ego getting in the way at intermediate classes! Not sure how well it is taken when after the class the followers say that the female leads is the only one who "got" tonights moves :whistle: :whistle:

:yeah: I've also been told that. And frequently, when the lines has stopped snaking by and my next lady has stopped in front of me, I'm greeted with "thank god it's you, I'll be fine if you're leading" !!

crystaltips
29th-April-2009, 01:29 PM
Having my earlier post back, aaargh I apologise, it makes me sound sooooo arroogant!!

What I meant was that the lady feels she will then have a better chance of "getting" the move, rather than being put off getting it by a male lead who hasn't quite cracked it yet.

Still sounds arrogant, right? Sorry. I really don't mean to be. I mentioned my reasons for learning to lead previously but I have to also say that one of the reasons I continue to do it is so that I can be a better dancer. I'm never going to be a petite, graceful, fluid follower but I think I do have a chance at being a good lead so why would I not do it. Besides, anything men can do . . . .:stirring:

martingold
29th-April-2009, 05:08 PM
As well as the statistical data I have the experience of a local venue that was damaged, perhaps even fatally damaged, by ladies who wanted to lead. There was a surplus of experienced male dancers. I used to leave early to reduce competition for ladies, believing it to be for the good of the venue. I wanted it to succeed.

Some ladies would arrive after the class and dance together. Then they would dance with other ladies as leads, increasing the leader imbalance even more. I regularly left early. I do not have the benefits of the stats in this case, but we did not do a good job of retaining men or ladies, and the venue folded.

As I posted, I am with the franchisee on this one.
Blaming good lady leads for a venue having to close smacks of pure nonsense to me
It is usually down to a lot more than that mainly the music, the teacher, and the friendliness venue staff that keeps people
this all held together by a good venue manager or franchisee

i have seen this put to the test in a couple of local venues one now being extremely popular having gone through various changes over the years
it went from above 100 regular dancers down to 20 then back to 90 (due imho twice changing teacher) now its at 120 to 150 as regular members
another venue has closed again due to changes made
Absolutely nothing to do with the clientele




I must say, I find myself thinking there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye. I've never seen a venue with more than 3 or 4 women dancing as leads, and I've rarely seen even that unless there are a lot of women left over.

So if you have a venue with a surplus of experienced male leads, and at the same time lots of women wanting to take the lead themselves, I suspect there was some other dynamic going on. Which I further suspect might have had more to do with the venue losing popularity than anything else.

All supposition on my part, of course.
:yeah:

bigdjiver
29th-April-2009, 08:53 PM
Blaming good lady leads for a venue having to close smacks of pure nonsense to me...For most venues having good lady leads is a huge asset. Recruitment drives usually bring in far more women than men, and ladies that can lead as well as follow are a major asset in keeping everybody dancing.

At this venue I would see experienced male dancers come to the door, look in and see men sitting out and no ladies, then walk away. I often went home early, or went out for a walkabout to help the situation.



It is usually down to a lot more than that mainly the music, the teacher, and the friendliness venue staff that keeps people
this all held together by a good venue manager or franchisee All these factors come into play. The playlists did not appeal to many Ceroc dancers. The organiser was offering something different.

The teacher was very good, and it was a very friendly venue. The advertising did not work well enough, and those recruited did not stick.


Absolutely nothing to do with the clientele The clientele are who you dance with. It is everything to do with the clientele and the music. Our local freestyles have no teacher. They would remain profitable for a long time even if the local class closed down.I learned to dance watching others, and regularly dance with ladies who have never partner danced before. If the local freestyles were held weekly who knows what would happen.

martingold
29th-April-2009, 10:05 PM
For most venues having good lady leads is a huge asset. Recruitment drives usually bring in far more women than men, and ladies that can lead as well as follow are a major asset in keeping everybody dancing.
At this venue I would see experienced male dancers come to the door, look in and see men sitting out and no ladies, then walk away. I often went home early, or went out for a walkabout to help the situation.
which makes me wonder why male dancers didnt stay in the first place or couldnt cope with the learning process is it because they didnt go and ask the ladies for a dance or was the venue just to cliquey


All these factors come into play. The playlists did not appeal to many Ceroc dancers. The organiser was offering something different.
obviously not what the majority of the dancers wanted and by the way i know of several good and sucsessful ventures playing music that wouldnt apeal to many ceroc dancers but other dancers will travel miles for it


The teacher was very good, and it was a very friendly venue. The advertising did not work well enough, and those recruited did not stick.

so why didnt they stay there must be a reason why some venues with loads of good lady leads work yet this one didnt

anyway as agent says this question and thread isnt about the fact that they didnt want lady leads or indeed same sex dance couples just that a taxi dancer felt intimidated by a very good follow trying to learn to lead by using the ceroc formula ie beginners class and then practice session

nebula
30th-April-2009, 12:49 AM
Read all the posts with interest. Some good points, some not so good ones. Let me give you a local perspective...
As I dance in the same local venues as Mayhem, it really shocked me that something like this has come to pass. Mayhem goes out of her way to dance with beginners, to have her dancing lead would have been a tremendous asset to Ceroc here commercially.
She not only dances with them, but she chats with them, goes through the basics with them, and generally makes them feel welcome. To bar her from the refresher class is pure nonsense. Just because the taxi manager learnt different way does not mean that way is THE correct way.
To add insult to the injury, they are quite happy to "allow" her to learn to lead, but ONLY if she becomes a taxi dancer. How hypocritical is that?!!! :tantrum: Having done my taxi-ing spell, I certainly have discouraged her from doing that - as many ex-taxis have said before on here, it damages your own dancing sometimes to the point of no return (not trying to be arrogant about it, for me it's simple truth).
I now also have a bone to pick up with them, which is a different story altogether. Let's say that not having any legal right to forbid me to run private workshops (specifically NOT affiliated with Ceroc or any other independent companies in the area and beyond), I was told that I am forbidden of promoting them at ceroc venues, as that is in direct competition.
Having run a musicality workshop, I can hardly visualise it being in competition with ceroc (musicality at ceroc :rolleyes::lol:)... Anyway, I will have to do my "pushing" (another phrase that was used...) outside now. Thank God the weather's turned and it's going to be warmer from now on :grin:

Liz McCaig
30th-April-2009, 04:47 PM
In particular, I'd have to question why organisers think follows are going to be traumatized by dancing with a woman (despite lots of anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and yet they ignore the many leads creepy enough to really traumatize beginners.

That's why I stopped going to Salsa which was the first partner dance I tried....sleezy men. There are a lot less in Jive. It still does put me off from returning to a venue even as a more experienced dancer.

At almost all Salsa venues I have been to in my area women have to dance together to learn and this was never the problem...only reason they stayed. It was always lack of men or those sleeze balls during the freestyle that caused the problem!! :sick:

I used to attend Salsa classes when working in Belgium...no sleeze balls there...and the ratios of men to women were fairly even. Lady leads were still encouraged.

This could be a "very british" hang-up...outdated and outmoded?! And therefore like the "british men don't dance hang-up" this should be challenged to bring Britain into the 21st century (even the 19th on this point....:stirring:)! (Wow - my first rant on here!!)

frodo
30th-April-2009, 10:56 PM
That's why I stopped going to Salsa which was the first partner dance I tried....sleezy men..... (Wow - my first rant on here!!)
Why not rant on a new thread. It is probably long overdue and there may be many others who would also like to rant on sleezy men.

This one is probably best kept for talking about women leaders.

frodo
30th-April-2009, 11:02 PM
To add insult to the injury, they are quite happy to "allow" her to learn to lead, but ONLY if she becomes a taxi dancer. How hypocritical is that?!!! :tantrum:
Why is it hypocritical. A taxi dancer is official, and therefore different.

Even men who don't dance with other men may be OK being lead by the teacher, or leading the teacher in class, to illustrate a point.

The context and purpose are very different, and understood to be different.



...I'm never going to be a petite, graceful, fluid follower but I think I do have a chance at being a good lead so why would I not do it. Besides, anything men can do . . . .:stirring:

You have better opportunities than men so all other things being equal you should be significantly better.

StokeBloke
1st-May-2009, 12:33 AM
Why is it hypocritical.You're right! Why is it hypocritical to teach something to someone when it suits your purpose; but when it doesn't you give them a list of made up excuses that pretty much everyone here has dispelled, to explain your bigoted, homophobic, Edwardian prejudice.


1. You may not learn to follow for your own fun and entertainment because it may [insert weird made up excuse here - like it may frighten people into thinking Ceroc dancers like to sip from the sapphic fountain *gasp*].
2. I need Taxi crew so you may learn to lead now.

I see your point exactly Frodo, it's not hypocritical at all :rolleyes:

Dreadful Scathe
1st-May-2009, 08:19 AM
Why is it hypocritical. A taxi dancer is official, and therefore different.

eh? It is clearly hypocritical to not allow someone to do something when it suits them (learning to lead) and only allow them to do that thing when it suits YOU (taxi dancer). I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the big words you dont understand in future :)

crystaltips
1st-May-2009, 01:31 PM
You have better opportunities than men so all other things being equal you should be significantly better.

Correct. And probably true. :na: But not as good as the best leads. And never likely to be. If I spend the same number of hours dancing as your average guy but only 20% of that time is leading then I would need to do a helluva lot more dancing to get the same level as him. Jack of all trades, Master of none. To get better at leading I know I have to do it more (which is true for anyone) but then I go dancing and am asked to dance by all these lovely men . . . how can a gal refuse. :wink:

bigdjiver
1st-May-2009, 02:24 PM
You're right! Why is it hypocritical to teach something to someone when it suits your purpose; but when it doesn't you give them a list of made up excuses that pretty much everyone here has dispelled, to explain your bigoted, homophobic, Edwardian prejudice... When they lack the skill they play the man, not the ball.

I am no authority on pubs, but I have heard three ex-publicans complain that they started with an "everybody welcome" policy but soon found themselves running a gay bar, and non-profitable ones at that.


1. You may not learn to follow for your own fun and entertainment because it may [insert weird made up excuse here - like it may frighten people into thinking Ceroc dancers like to sip from the sapphic fountain *gasp*]. I think you meant lead, but when you are kicking the man precision is not so important.


2. I need Taxi crew so you may learn to lead now. The franchisee is making business decisions, nothing hypocritical about maximising profit.

I see your point exactly Frodo, it's not hypocritical at all :rolleyes:And even when you think you are wrong, you are right.

Few people come to Ceroc to cure their homophbia. Most people do not like going against the culture, the status quo. If a lady does not want to be lead by another she is unlikely to say so.

Most ladies come in the expectation of dancing with men. That is what they paid for, and the organiser should heed that fact.

Hetrosexuality is in our genetic makeup. I like being close to women because I am programmed that way. Perhaps if I had had brothers instead of sisters I might be more amenable to dancing with men.

Whatever insults you may care to throw the fact is if I had been faced with a male partner on my first visit I would not have come back. I think most men would feel the same. Why a women first timer is not allowed to feel like that nobody has told me. Why an organiser should adopt policies that make new customers feel uncomfortable unnecessarily nobody has explained.

After dancing for years I have actually danced some moves with men twice, both times in a "fun" foursome class, where everybody danced with the other three. It was not "fun" for me, and the other guys were positively cringing.

Twirly
1st-May-2009, 02:58 PM
Why a women first timer is not allowed to feel like that nobody has told me.

No-one is telling anyone how they should feel.

However some of us believe that the attitudes being espoused by the venue concerned are sexist, and as such wrong, as it isn't written in any rules, either from Ceroc HQ or the venue, that women are ot allowed to lead - and if they can lead in class, they should be able to lead in review session too. If we are talking about comfort levels of women having to be lead by other women, then it is only logical that the rule applies across both classes. It doesn't, therefore there is very questionable logic being applied to the decision.

And no-one is saying that women should be forced to dance with women. We are only talking about the class. And as has been previously stated several times, there are plenty of men who are as likely to put women off as there are female leads - probably a lot more.

However, I would also argue that it is more socially acceptable for women to dance together, than for men to dance together, and therefore they are two different issues. Historically, women have danced together at social functions because there haven't been the men available - either they've been off fighting wars and therefore not around, or there are fewer men because they've been killed in those wars. So women have got into the habit of dancing together, or not at all. Sound familiar?!

Dreadful Scathe
1st-May-2009, 03:00 PM
Hetrosexuality is in our genetic makeup.

Unless you are not heterosexual of course - also, is there evidence that your sexuality is entirely genetic ?


I like being close to women because I am programmed that way. Perhaps if I had had brothers instead of sisters I might be more amenable to dancing with men.

In essence you are admitting that your upbringing has a lot to do with it. I think we as a society are getting away from male/female stereotypes of previous decades.


Whatever insults you may care to throw the fact is if I had been faced with a male partner on my first visit I would not have come back. I think most men would feel the same.

One of the first times I ever danced in London, in my first year of dancing I was pointed toward Steve Lampert as a possible follower by the teacher. Surprisingly, this didn't put me off ;) (this would be Jive Bar circa 1999/2000)


Why a women first timer is not allowed to feel like that nobody has told me. Why an organiser should adopt policies that make new customers feel uncomfortable unnecessarily nobody has explained.


Women traditionally dance with women in most social dance settings I have ever been in. Is this not true in your experience ? Its actually the social norm as far as I can see. In the world of partner dancing I have not seen it as an issue in the 10 years I've been involved in it. Perhaps some new customers are uncomfortable, but then there will be some that are uncomfortable with lots of other things - when you think of the smelly, obnoxious, rude or dangerous partners you may meet - dancing with the same sex during lessons seems as important as a persons eye colour. During free style people choose who they dance with based on whatever criteria they are personally happy with anyway, so its irrelevant.

martingold
2nd-May-2009, 11:44 AM
knowing the people involved as i do perhaps we can go back to the point in question which as it happens has nothing to do with homophobia or same sex couples
Mayhem was not being denied the practice session as a female but as an acomplished follow
she was told that the taxi dancer (not the female beginners) would feel intimidated by an exceptional follow being in the practice session as a lead

From my long term experience as taxi dancer and now a taxi manager this is absolute nonsense it is always better to have experienced dancers in the practice session it helpe the beginners to practice the moves and build them into their muscle memory

I would be very dismayed if any of the taxis i manage were intimidated by any dnacer who turned up in their session

oh and by the way the other taxis were not intimidated it was the taxi manager that was :sick:

TA Guy
2nd-May-2009, 01:03 PM
I would be very dismayed if any of the taxis i manage were intimidated by any dnacer who turned up in their session


Mmmmm. To be honest, I'd be pretty well intimidated if <Jordan Frisbee> turned up at my review class. <Insert your own name here>, it's all relative.

Dunno what I'd do if Tatiana turned up. Goop, gurgle, giggle probably :)

martingold
2nd-May-2009, 05:29 PM
Mmmmm. To be honest, I'd be pretty well intimidated if <Jordan Frisbee> turned up at my review class. <Insert your own name here>, it's all relative.

Dunno what I'd do if Tatiana turned up. Goop, gurgle, giggle probably :)
that would be just a tad different from a normal ceroc punter who is a very good follow though wouldnt it
i would probably struggle with the session were mike ellard to turn up and watch

frodo
2nd-May-2009, 07:39 PM
You're right! Why is it hypocritical to teach something to someone when it suits your purpose; but when it doesn't you give them a list of made up excuses that pretty much everyone here has dispelled, to explain your bigoted, homophobic, Edwardian prejudice.
IF the bold bit was correct you could reasonably call it hypocritical.



eh? It is clearly hypocritical to not allow someone to do something when it suits them (learning to lead) and only allow them to do that thing when it suits YOU (taxi dancer). I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the big words you dont understand in future :)
Oh please.

As I pointed out the circumstances are fundamentally different.

DavidY
3rd-May-2009, 05:05 PM
i would probably struggle with the session were mike ellard to turn up and watchHe does that from time to time - guess how I know (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=353696&postcount=19)? :eek:

Lost Leader
3rd-May-2009, 05:51 PM
He does that from time to time - guess how I know (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=353696&postcount=19)? :eek:

Ah, happy days eh. Then there was that time when the 10.......

straycat
5th-May-2009, 01:27 PM
Why is it hypocritical. A taxi dancer is official, and therefore different.

Disagree. A taxi dancer is official, yes, and therefore setting an officially endorsed example for the paying customers to follow.

bigdjiver
5th-May-2009, 01:59 PM
Disagree. A taxi dancer is official, yes, and therefore setting an officially endorsed example for the paying customers to follow.Disagree with your disagree. A lady might tolerate being searched by a female police officer, but not consent to being searched by a lady volunteer. An ounce of authority can tip the balance.

straycat
5th-May-2009, 02:05 PM
Disagree with your disagree. A lady might tolerate being searched by a female police officer, but not consent to being searched by a lady volunteer. An ounce of authority can tip the balance.

Disagree with your disagree with my disagree. ;) A lady taxi dancer might well invite me to dance with her. A lady police officer would not invite me to arrest people with her.

Dreadful Scathe
5th-May-2009, 02:06 PM
Oh please.

As I pointed out the circumstances are fundamentally different.

I'm only point out that you are fundamentally wrong ;)

StokeBloke
5th-May-2009, 02:09 PM
The franchisee is making business decisions, nothing hypocritical about maximising profit....and here was I thinking that Ceroc was an inclusive company dedicated to teaching people the joy of dancing; not simply a vehicle to secure a maximum bottom line for the franchisee. Of course profit within a company is important, but it's a shame when it's the be-all-and-end-all :what:

Maybe the fact that I am in a solid relationship means that I am not using dancing to look for a life partner. I imagine if you're after something more... romantic... then dancing with a man may put a wrinkle in your night *shrug* I don't know, that's purely my conjecture as I dance just for the fun of dancing to great music with people (of both sexes).

YMMV :flower:

martingold
5th-May-2009, 02:13 PM
He does that from time to time - guess how I know (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=353696&postcount=19)? :eek:
yes i have heard of this as well
not a bad thing really though is it
especially when certain taxi managers are intimidated by a regular, known, good follow joining in the practice session

DavidY
5th-May-2009, 06:30 PM
not a bad thing really though is it I agree - not at all a bad thing - just a bit nerve-wracking when it happens to you!

nebula
5th-May-2009, 09:54 PM
some of us believe that the attitudes being espoused by the venue concerned are sexist, and as such wrong, as it isn't written in any rules, either from Ceroc HQ or the venue, that women are ot allowed to lead - and if they can lead in class, they should be able to lead in review session too. If we are talking about comfort levels of women having to be lead by other women, then it is only logical that the rule applies across both classes. It doesn't, therefore there is very questionable logic being applied to the decision.
Frodo, it seems you are missing the point :banghead:- see above by Twirly. The question is not about the business decisions by franchisees. The question IS about double standards of those decisions.

jivecat
6th-May-2009, 10:37 AM
Maybe the fact that I am in a solid relationship means that I am not using dancing to look for a life partner. I imagine if you're after something more... romantic... then dancing with a man may put a wrinkle in your night *shrug* I don't know, that's purely my conjecture as I dance just for the fun of dancing to great music with people (of both sexes).



So do I. Having to use dancing to look for a life partner would take all the fun out of it, IMO!

martingold
6th-May-2009, 11:54 AM
I agree - not at all a bad thing - just a bit nerve-wracking when it happens to you!

as i said i can see that would be the case :what:

having said that i can think of a few venues that might be helped by mike visiting from time to time


In this case though Mayhem is a normal (if you can call her that :whistle:) punter who has been subjected to this by a taxi manager who is obviously worried she isnt doing her job properly (whether she is or not) and hasnt got the confidence to help a follow get it right
Once again i will add it has nothing to do sex or homophobia but in my opinion purely of a personal nature regarding one taxi dancer getting above herself and the franchisee backing a nervous taxi dancer instead of using this as a way of building the taxi dancers confidence in herself

DD+
6th-May-2009, 04:57 PM
Most ladies come in the expectation of dancing with men. That is what they paid for, and the organiser should heed that fact.
.

Surely they came to learn to dance at the end of the day:wink:

I am a female and i both lead and follow (just reached the finals at Champs leading a man)

Following wasnt the reason i started dancing - i wanted learn to lead too, I just found a willing candidate to work throught the moves with me and then once i felt confident i started joining in the class as a lead.

You do occasionally get the odd female look down her nose at you as they come round but i have never had anyone refuse to dance with me or have anyone tell me that i cant learn to lead!

:flower:

MartinHarper
6th-May-2009, 08:36 PM
Once again i will add it has nothing to do sex or homophobia but in my opinion purely of a personal nature regarding one taxi dancer getting above herself and the franchisee backing a nervous taxi dancer instead of using this as a way of building the taxi dancers confidence in herself

Technically, she is a taxi manager, rather than a taxi dancer, as I read this thread. I agree, though, there is no sense in accusing her of being homophobic. The woman in question merely has an irrational fear of the damage that will be caused to the venue by a non-taxi female leading in the beginner review class - surely a case of homotripudiophobia, not homophobia.

The venue is really missing a trick here. Rather than simply saying "no" and leaving unpleasant messages on Mayhem's answer phone, why not engage her with alternatives? It's not like beginner review classes are the holy grail of learning to lead. Is there a beginner's workshop they could offer to her? Maybe the teacher or the taxi dancers could offer a dance after the class to let her practice the routine and give some quick feedback? Maybe they could point out men who've expressed an interest in following, or other women who are learning to lead? Instead, they give the impression of being deliberately obstructive, and that makes them look bad.

DavidY
6th-May-2009, 08:52 PM
homotripudiophobiaWhich means?:confused:

MartinHarper
6th-May-2009, 09:11 PM
Which means?:confused:

Fear of same sex dancing, of course.

David Franklin
30th-June-2009, 12:24 AM
Sorry to bump an old thread, but saw a discussion on Yehoodi (http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86468) with what seems a very relevant post from a teacher


I think more than anything it really all depends on the teacher and how they handle it. If I have a leader who wants to come to my beginner class to better his leading, I take a minute to announce that to the class. I might even frame it as a bonus for the students. "Hey look this more advanced leader will be rotating through with you beginner leaders and he can probably even give you a helpful hint or two about how to better your leading" (assuming he's someone I trust to give advice of course).

I find that if I explain he's a higher level dancer trying to grow as a dancer by learning the other role, it immediately breaks down any hesitation most of the men might have. I take it completely out of any sexual context and put it in a pure learning one. But if I don't say anything, totally different vibe. My saying something gives guys in the room permission to feel comfortable, or conversely shames those who don't in to participating because to not do so after I've made a class wide announcement would draw negative attention to them.

Since I've been making this announcement (both in SF and NYC) I've never had a problem. But prior to, there have been some weird reactions.

bigdjiver
30th-June-2009, 01:54 AM
Sorry to bump an old thread, but saw a discussion on Yehoodi (http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86468) with what seems a very relevant post from a teacherPeople are more wiling to accept something if the majority and authority back it. often it is not the feeling that is changed, but the ability to express it. The usual way of finding the real reaction is to see how many come back.

I do not think I would be entirely happy going to beginner class to help train teachers.

NZ Monkey
30th-June-2009, 04:56 AM
People are more wiling to accept something if the majority and authority back it. often it is not the feeling that is changed, but the ability to express it. The usual way of finding the real reaction is to see how many come back.

I do not think I would be entirely happy going to beginner class to help train teachers.Perhaps, but I’ve experienced the opposite living (briefly) in Japan. Many of the things I ended up doing there would have seemed very strange at home, but because all of the locals were very comfortable with them I felt comfortable as well.

When I was hiking through Nepal I found that native male friends would often walk with their pinky fingers hooked together. Surprisingly enough – this didn’t seem unusual at that time and place.

A lot depends on context, and in my experience that having that context made clear can make a very big difference to perceptions.

bigdjiver
30th-June-2009, 09:47 AM
... A lot depends on context, and in my experience that having that context made clear can make a very big difference to perceptions.and that, IMO, is the essence of MJ. On the dance floor we behave in ways that would be frowned upon outside the room. For me we are engaged in three minute dramas, acting out this and that.
I, in sequential three minute bursts I can do my best to be an artist, comedian, counsellor, teacher, athlete, friend, performer ...
Reality and imagination mix, it never tastes the same way twice, but is always appetising.

Ceroc Buckingam have a theme night once a month. The next one is "Double Trouble". Obviously for the class to work there has to be a large excess of women, whereas the theme will attract men. I am sugesting that the night makes a special effort to attract female leaders, perhaps offering a brief reprise of the class for female leaders and perhaps male followers.

Comments on that?

Twirly
30th-June-2009, 09:50 AM
Interesting. It is also quite possible that once the behaviour is socially sanctioned by the teacher and appears to be acceptable behaviour by the rest of the class, even those who may have thought they would feel uncomfortable dancing with the same gender may find it less upsetting than they thought they would. Experience can alter our perception of an activity.

bigdjiver
30th-June-2009, 11:59 AM
Interesting. It is also quite possible that once the behaviour is socially sanctioned by the teacher and appears to be acceptable behaviour by the rest of the class, even those who may have thought they would feel uncomfortable dancing with the same gender may find it less upsetting than they thought they would. Experience can alter our perception of an activity.

We are all eperienced follows being "discouraged to lead"

Most people, in activities where they lack experience and expertise, are followers. Many of us, at some stage of our lives, goto the beach with apprehensions about exposing more of our bodies than we are used to. After a day or two we figure out where our comfort zone is, and it is a lot further out than day one. If there are ladies topless others are more likely to wear a bikini.


"Are we human, or are we dancer?" Pushing the boundaries

Some of the most valuable people in a dance class are those that push the boundaries. They make others inside those boundaries more comfortable outside of their normal real-world zone. In the dance hall, even as amatuers, we can enjoy some of the freedom of spirit that comes fro being "Dancer".

NZ Monkey
30th-June-2009, 10:26 PM
Ceroc Buckingam have a theme night once a month. The next one is "Double Trouble". Obviously for the class to work there has to be a large excess of women, whereas the theme will attract men. I am sugesting that the night makes a special effort to attract female leaders, perhaps offering a brief reprise of the class for female leaders and perhaps male followers.

Comments on that?Not really.

My gut feeling is that it'd be unlikely to be a major drawcard for the men to be honest, but then I don't know anything about Ceroc Buckingam and it's punters. I doubt it'd get much attention if the same were tried in Auckland anyway.

Good luck though! :flower: