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Emma
24th-November-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
I'm against women dancing as men (unless there is a large excess of women,ownly as I have been told a lot of women don't like it)

Poll Time!!!

Mikey
24th-November-2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Emma
Poll Time!!!


:kiss: oooo.. Andy Magregor is going to be your best friend ever...:wink: He has being waiting for this i think.. :rofl:

Emma
24th-November-2003, 03:25 PM
Read carefully, Mikey..I am talking about women dancing as men, not vice versa!!

Mikey
24th-November-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Emma
Read carefully, Mikey..I am talking about women dancing as men, not vice versa!!

i read that hun.. which means Andy can be the woman in his glory at last !!! Blimey, he dresses enough for the part..:what:

foxylady
24th-November-2003, 03:33 PM
Glad someone did this...

I quite often dance as a 'lead' if there are alot of women having to wait... I get the impression that quite alot of women don't like it.. :really:

I only do it because I'd rather dance than stand around, but I feel that I am regarded as having 'other' (!) motives....:what:

Anyone else feel the same ??

Emma
24th-November-2003, 03:38 PM
I did it because I really wasn't sure..I dance as a lead regularly..and though I have had one or two very slightly off reactions I'm not convinced that this counts as 'most'. Plus this is usually from women I don't know (hey maybe they don't like my perfume!!)....also from the other point of view I now quite often have woman ask me to dance as a lead with them, which I consider very flattering...anyway...hmmm..hence the poll.... :nice:

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
regarded as having 'other' (!) motives....:what:

Anyone else feel the same ??
Not quite the same, but I recall a fateful day several years ago in a venue that shall not be named, when the venue manager decreed that the taxi dancers (of which I was one, :tears: should all dance as girls in the beginners review class, because there were quite a lot of guys over.

Hooooo boy... what a kin disaster that was :tears: :tears: :D :D :D :D :D

The beginner guys absolutely HATED it (and I didn't exactly enjoy it myself). I would absolutely refuse to do that now - it was a colossal mistake.

But hilarious in retrospect...

Chris

Mikey
24th-November-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
Glad someone did this...

I quite often dance as a 'lead' if there are alot of women having to wait... I get the impression that quite alot of women don't like it.. :really:

I only do it because I'd rather dance than stand around, but I feel that I am regarded as having 'other' (!) motives....:what:

Anyone else feel the same ??

i don't think there are many women who would take offence to be honest.. i know a few women who are very good leads and i can see that in thier dancing too.. and in general there are more men that women at venues throughout.. you probably find it more aceptable at a weekender event as opposed to a class night unless you are well known there...

Mikey
24th-November-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Not quite the same, but I recall a fateful day several years ago in a venue that shall not be named, when the venue manager decreed that the taxi dancers (of which I was one, :tears: should all dance as girls in the beginners review class, because there were quite a lot of guys over.

Hooooo boy... what a kin disaster that was :tears: :tears: :D :D :D :D :D

The beginner guys absolutely HATED it (and I didn't exactly enjoy it myself). I would absolutely refuse to do that now - it was a colossal mistake.

But hilarious in retrospect... it can be very tough for the guys to dance as a woman and i think it's a good thing for all the guys to try at least once.. can be a real eye opener as to how they move the ladies and just how much they spin too !!!:grin:

Graham
24th-November-2003, 03:48 PM
I was quite surprised by Stewart's post and then foxylady's comment along similar lines. Until now I always had the impression that most women were fine with it - in fact I know of a couple of women who are really popular when they lead in a class because they're much nicer to dance with than a lot of the beginner men!

Chris
24th-November-2003, 03:50 PM
Thing is, women sometimes become leaders (which is fine by me) but I don't think they dance "as men" - they dance as women leaders. Women have a different insight into other women, and a different rapport to the one a man can establish, which makes it fascinating to watch. Not so hot personally on watching women trying to be 'macho' but some people might enjoy the 'fun' aspect of that.

When I lead I try to dramatise the man's part, playing an archetypal role. I'd like to hear more from women who dance 'from the inside out' as someone said recently (and dance the lead a lot) and understand the places they're coming from. To me, a greater idea of the feminine also accentuates and highlights the ideas of masculinity. There's also feminine qualities that a man draws on in dancing - sensitivity and empathy to name just two - so seeing how women employ these things as one woman to another - one leading and another following - can be fab.

Go with the flow - follow your dancing spirit wherever it takes you!

:kiss: :grin: :kiss:

foxylady
24th-November-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I was quite surprised by Stewart's post and then foxylady's comment along similar lines. Until now I always had the impression that most women were fine with it - in fact I know of a couple of women who are really popular when they lead in a class because they're much nicer to dance with than a lot of the beginner men!

Its fine if they know you... but if they don't sometimes the body language is pretty plain (even when I'm wearing my taxi t-shirt) .... and sometimes they assume that as you are not a man they need to tell you what to do (ref one very strange lady in a Norwich dance class) :eek: , and I've even once seen someone drop out of the line, having counted on and realising that they would end up with me...


Now I've never knowingly had a man do that to me :grin:


But then hey, it doesn't bother me, as I said I'd rather be dancing...

michael
24th-November-2003, 04:06 PM
Quote: About Taxi dancers all dancing AS GIRLS:The beginner guys absolutely HATED it (and I didn't exactly enjoy it myself). I would absolutely refuse to do that now - it was a colossal mistake.

Yep i would hate it too both ways i am sure it is just a man thing and silly but until............. me thinks will stay that way.

Now an entirely different matter is getting the opportunity to dance with a female being the leader!!!!!!!

EVERYBODY SAYS IT WILL IMPROVE YOUR OWN LEADING. So i am all for it.............WHAT HAVE YOU STARTED EMMA.

Thinking.......................................... ..................................................

Present Status=Beginner /improver status...............No fear now of making a complete fool of myself...............................

WITH WOMEN LEADING........................................... .........................
Present Status= complete Buffoon..............Back to the drawing board.......again................And how long before no fear status............with women leading...........................that would be interesting:wink:

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by michael
Now an entirely different matter is getting the opportunity to dance with a female being the leader!!!!!!!
Absolutely. Whenever I'm taxiing, if I get the other taxi after the rotation, we always swap round and dance each other's role.

I'm pretty rubbish, but it can only be a good thing, and I'm not as rubbish as I was.

Chris

Mikey
24th-November-2003, 04:14 PM
EVERYBODY SAYS IT WILL IMPROVE YOUR OWN LEADING. So i am all for it.............WHAT HAVE YOU STARTED EMMA.

Thinking.......................................... ..................................................

Present Status=Beginner /improver status...............No fear now of making a complete fool of myself...............................

WITH WOMEN LEADING........................................... .........................
Present Status= complete Buffoon..............Back to the drawing board.......again................And how long before no fear status............with women leading...........................that would be interesting:wink: :waycool: I think there are many men who would benifit from the experience of been led by a woman.. So often do i hear the ladies say "he leads so roughly" men forget thier strenght in the enthusiasm to lead well or just to execute the move at all costs !!!:sorry I have on many occasions taken a new male dancer who is struggling with his partnre, made him do the female part of a move and it seems to make them realise what they themselves are trying to achieve with the woman by leading... :nice:

Graham
24th-November-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
Now I've never knowingly had a man do that to me :grin:
I take it you mean the dropping out of line part rather than the telling you what to do part :grin:

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
i think it's a good thing for all the guys to try at least once.. can be a real eye opener as to how they move the ladies and just how much they spin too !!![/i]
Yeah, totally agree, but not when they're already feeling out of their depth even dancing with girls.

I'll dance as follower with a girl leading as often as I can in the beginners classes, but I'm not a good enough follower to ham it up with another guy (anyone ever see Viktor and Mick dancing together - the funniest thing ever :D ), and other than when camping it up, I have to confess it feels a bit creepy to me... :tears:

TheTramp
24th-November-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Yeah, totally agree, but not when they're already feeling out of their depth even dancing with girls.

I'll dance as follower with a girl leading as often as I can in teh beginners classes, but I'm not a good enough follower to ham it up with another guy (anyone ever see Viktor and Mick dancing together - the funniest thing ever :D ), and other than when camping it up, I have to confess it feels a bit creepy to me... :tears: There's nothing wrong with dancing as a follower. I do it whenever I can... I think that I had more dances with DavidB than with Lily on Saturday night :devil:

Steve

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
There's nothing wrong with dancing as a follower.
Er... did I say there was?

Once I'm a better follower, just look out guys... :really:

DavidB
24th-November-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I think that I had more dances with DavidB than with Lily on Saturday night Thanks for not mentioning the 10 seconds when I tried to follow!

I have now tried following 5 times, for a combined total of about 60 seconds. I freely admit I'm crap at it! I would get Lily to try leading me occasionally, but I might have to literally put her on a pedestal :devil: :devil:

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by michael
Present Status=Beginner /improver status...............No fear now of making a complete fool of myself...............................

Ah yes, those were the days... :D :D

Lory
24th-November-2003, 05:02 PM
This is very interesting for me, as on Friday I did the beginners class as a man for the first time (due to the fact it was a small class and 10 women over) I couldn't face standing around...

I learnt a lot and a lot about me too!

1. I've realised that as a woman I hardly ever listen to what the teachers saying. I watch the female demo, for foot positioning and arm style but that's about it.
I'm still not convinced this is a bad thing as, re point no 2!

During this lesson my brain was aching from having to take it all in!

2. Lot's of the women fought me, they watched, then 'thought' they knew where to go, therefore making it impossible for me to lead

3. I've never been confused about my left and right in my life before that night!
:what:


4. I felt much more pressure to get it right as a man

5. I inadvertently grabbed a woman's bum (instead of her hip) if I was a man she might have slapped me!
:blush:

6. my brain hit a blank when the teacher said, 'OK, let's put all four moves together' arghhhhhhhhh

I can't say I really enjoyed it but it was a good experience! And I appreciate men much more now!

:blush: :cheers:
I'll just add, I don't feel uncomfortable being lead by a woman and I've had many a good giggle doing this!
But given the choice, give me a man any day!



:wink:

stewart38
24th-November-2003, 05:21 PM
What happen to the thread I started on this ? oh well I don't want any glory :cool:

Anyway my poll was asking 3 women who don't like it. Not saying they hate etc. One said she didn't like the females 'soft hands etc'
Anyway the pole should tell us something

I also think when you have loads more women not a bad thing but I have seen female taxi dancers taking the role of a man when there are loads more men now that is not fair on the men or women.

Seem more women dancing as men 'nowdays' maybe we will have men dancing as women in the furture ? :really:

DavidB
24th-November-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
Anyway the pole should tell us something jestem cz³owiekiem. JA jestem szczêœliwe kiedy kobiety prowadz¹ taniec!

Mikey
24th-November-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
jestem cz³owiekiem. JA jestem szczêœliwe kiedy kobiety prowadz¹ taniec! Ok.. i confess... i have not got a clue what that means ? Clue me in david.....:confused:

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
jestem cz³owiekiem. JA jestem szczêœliwe kiedy kobiety prowadz¹ taniec!
:rolleyes: Totem, you dope...

Mikey
24th-November-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
:rolleyes: Totem, you dope...


:tears: thanks chris.. bar stuard:wink:

DavidB
24th-November-2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Ok.. i confess... i have not got a clue what that means ? Clue me in david "I am a man. I am happy when a woman leads a dance".

Of course I can speak fluent Polish, and didn't have to resort to any online Polish translation (http://www.poltran.com) website :wink: :wink: :wink:

Mikey
24th-November-2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
"I am a man. I am happy when a woman leads a dance".

Of course I can speak fluent Polish, and didn't have to resort to any online Polish translation (http://www.poltran.com) website :wink: :wink: :wink:

Well thankyou david:grin: Chris was less help:what: picking on my lack of knowledge.. i will have revenge though.. i shall send in a strong woman to put him in a seducer.. oh hang on.. no.. thats good..mmm oh hell.. i'll think of something...:wink:

Hang on.. i got it... Chris in a seducer, via a lovely girlie and then Andy Magregor in his kilt can "tea Bag" him.. :rofl: DON@T ASK !!!

Mary
24th-November-2003, 05:53 PM
It's Pole-ish chuck.:D

Yep, I'm a taxi and I'm expected to be able to lead all the beginners moves at least. I was never that comfortable about dancing with another woman, as a leader or a follower, but I am getting used to it. I quite often like to try leading a man - some men are crap followers!!:rolleyes: Tony is much better at following now, and it helps me to become more precise and positive in my lead. (He hates following BTW, and gets quite grumpy)

I still find leading freestyle very scarey, but I'm getting quite into now, and try to practise for fun with a couple of women I know quite well, and it's quite a laugh - especially when we swap roles.
:na:

M

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
:tears: thanks chris.. bar stuard:wink:
Glad you liked it, but I was being rude to David, not to you :D

Mary
24th-November-2003, 05:56 PM
Oh gosh, it looks like I'm a bit slow getting my replies in.:(


Hey, ChrisA I'll put you in a seducer.:devil: :devil:

M

DavidB
24th-November-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
but I was being rude to David, not to you :tears: thanks chris.. bar stuard:wink:

Mikey
24th-November-2003, 05:58 PM
Hey, ChrisA I'll put you in a seducer.:devil: :devil:

M [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks mary.. now what was the other bit of the plan again.. kilt, andy.. ....:rofl:

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Mary
Oh gosh, it looks like I'm a bit slow getting my replies in.:(

Yeah, but you've worked out how to use the edit button very nicely.



Hey, ChrisA I'll put you in a seducer.:devil: :devil:

Yes please :D

Who did you have in mind ?? :devil: :devil:

Lou
24th-November-2003, 07:00 PM
:grin:
I'm quite happy to dance with men, women, smurfs, or whomsoever asks!
I've been dancing as lead in several classes for a while now, and I have had absolutely no one object to it at all. In fact I regularly have ladies asking me to dance :sorry And most people, including the teachers, appreciate it when there's a shortage of men. And if more men arrive, I simply go back to dancing the lady's part.

And, Stewart, I am absolutely comfortable with my heterosexuality! :wink:

Tiggerbabe
24th-November-2003, 07:37 PM
As a taxi-dancer I regularly dance as a man and I've never yet had any of the women I've had to partner complain about it (to my knowledge at least :wink: ). In fact when I dance the lead in the intemediate class some of the women seem absolutely delighted to end up dancing with me. I think a lot of that is down to the "using their strength" aspect of some of the newer intermediate male dancers. Being a woman and knowing how it feels to be wrenched into some moves makes me less likely to do that type of thing as a leader - I hope anyway *fingers crossed*

I did the beginner's plus workshop on Saturday as a man and it was great! I would definitely recommend it.

I also dance the lead in freestyle, maybe only once or twice in an evening though - and not always just because there isn't an available man. I've had some fab dances with Heather, Linda, Lorna, Wendy and Sandy to name but a few. And have had a great dance or ten with Lorna when she's been leading. :waycool: Only thing is, I don't do it often enough so my repertoire of moves is limited IMHO

I do think it would be very helpful if the guys danced the follower's part every now and then. Especially those guys who make you do twenty spins in a row or the ones who insist on doing drops on a busy dance floor - they might get the idea when it's their head that's an inch away from someone else's feet.

I've danced the lead a few times with Bill, Dave H, Trampy and Gadget (once :blush: )

And I don't pretend to be a man when I'm leading - I'm still very much a girl :wink:

linda
24th-November-2003, 08:01 PM
I taxi in both Dundee and Perth and more often than not I have to dance as a man for the classes and when we do our taxi bit during the intermediate class.

I don't have a problem with that and the feedback from the women has always been very positive.

If there's a shortage of men for the freestyle, rather than leave some ladies sitting out I ask them to dance and again the response is positive. Who wouldn't rather dance than sit out any way???

And finally just to prove there are no gender issues in Ceroc:what:

I was at a party in Guilford a while back. Arrived for the fun class where there was a lack of men, after several moves round, the teacher suddenly pointed to me from the stage and told me to dance as a man!!!
I did as I was told, as after all I am the quiet one!!!!!! and so I finished the class dancing a man.
What I hadn't realised was that as part of the 'party' night they were giving out prizes for the best lady and the best man.......Yes, I won the prize for the best man:wink: :wink:

Linda
:cheers:

Chicklet
24th-November-2003, 08:13 PM
on the hol I had two or three with Lorna and while she was leading (of course) we were both VERY MUCH dancing as girls and it actually felt rather nice, in an aftermidnight, warm night with Baileys kinda way............:innocent: :innocent: :devil:

Jon
24th-November-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
:waycool: I think there are many men who would benifit from the experience of been led by a woman..

Totally agree with you on this. My dancing has improved especially my spinning!. But it's taught me whats nice to do to a lady and what to avoid.

I've even been seduced in a church on the carpet in front of 100 people but thats all I'm saying :wink: :D :D

Jon
24th-November-2003, 08:47 PM
Lots of people say Tazmanian Devil is a great leader and I have to agree.

Although she certainly lives up to her name with the number of continuous spins she does at the end of a dance. I lost count of the number of spins she put me through on Friday but it was at least 6. :confused: :drool:

:hug:

filthycute
24th-November-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
There's nothing wrong with dancing as a follower.
Steve

I completely agree. Trampy and James have been known to dance on a 'few':sick: occassions. (Trampy leading, James following) and i think it really helps James with his lead. Sometimes James' lead can be...erm....whats a word for 'not too forceful'?......well anyway, after he has a dance with Steve his lead becomes a little more strong.....in a nice 'i'm alpha male an' i'm leading' kinda way :D James has this fear of hurting me when he tries to firm up his lead. I try to tell him i'm a tough wee cookie and 'firm' doesn't mean 'rough'. A few more dances with the Tramp and i'm sure he'll realise i'm not made of glass...... the way Trampy throws me about it's kinda obvious i'm not :yum: :wink:

ps. No more full loops for James though.....his back can't take it :what:

cheers Steve...you are a great help to us...even if you don't realise.

filthycute x x

jivecat
25th-November-2003, 12:50 AM
I've been asked to dance several times by another woman and for some bizarre reason have felt vaguely flattered! I've no objection at all to dancing with just about anyone regardless of gender, race, planetary origin etc but have tried to put my finger on what feels different about it.

1. There is no sexual chemistry involved. (At least as far as I'm concerned.) I don't choose to think too much about the role this might play when I'm dancing with men but partner dancing traditionally draws on the interplay in various ways between masculinity and femininity and it seems strange when this is absent.

2. When the above factor is removed it still remains true that the dance is largely about enjoying the music and interpreting it together.

3. It's generally easier to get to know men at Ceroc than women so I appreciate the chance to build and cement friendships with other women. And hey, dancing with them seems like a perfectly good way to do that.

4.Women feel a lot softer and gentler to dance with than men so it gives me a bit more insight into how things might feel from the other side! Also women that I have danced with don't pull or use muscular force to lead the dance so I have to be particularly sensitive to follow the leads appropriately.

5.I don't feel that I have to worry so much about impressing a female partner although personal pride still demands that I give the dance my best. I think it's easier to discuss mistakes,difficulties etc with a female partner.

That's quite enough. Although I'm still mystified as to why some men would apparently prefer to be burnt at the stake than dance with another chap. Please explain it to me!

ChrisA
25th-November-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by jivecat
Also women that I have danced with don't pull or use muscular force to lead the dance so I have to be particularly sensitive to follow the leads appropriately.Hey... not just the women. Not all the time, anyway. And some of the guys have hands that aren't like sandpaper, too :waycool:

That's quite enough.
It is so not enough. We guys need to hear the girls' take on it all a bit more often, I reckon.

Although I'm still mystified as to why some men would apparently prefer to be burnt at the stake than dance with another chap. Please explain it to me!
That's easy. The guys are ugly. Why would I want to dance with any of them? The girls are lovely. Why wouldn't everyone want to dance with them???

Chris

Tazmanian Devil
25th-November-2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by Jon
Lots of people say Tazmanian Devil is a great leader and I have to agree.

Although she certainly lives up to her name with the number of continuous spins she does at the end of a dance. I lost count of the number of spins she put me through on Friday but it was at least 6. :confused: :drool:

:hug:



Why Thankyou kind sir :kiss: :hug: and dont worry we will get 3 spins out of you yet :wink:

Chris
25th-November-2003, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by jivecat
There is no sexual chemistry involved. (At least as far as I'm concerned.) I don't choose to think too much about the role this might play when I'm dancing with men but partner dancing traditionally draws on the interplay in various ways between masculinity and femininity and it seems strange when this is absent.

Although I'm still mystified as to why some men would apparently prefer to be burnt at the stake than dance with another chap. Please explain it to me!

My own experience is that when I start to learn a partner dance the sexual 'chemistry' helps with an awareness of roles - the standard interplays between men and women (men being gentlemen, ladies accepting the attention for instance) is like a safety valve (or a crutch).

As I get more involved in the type of dance, I can abstract the pure dance elements easier, a bit of my brain is freed up to make decisions on how to 'view' that three minutes with someone, I'm more confident about the knowledge I may have gleaned.

I think it's also the case that many men and women come to dancing, if not to actually get off with someone, to at least enjoy a bit of low-level flirting! When they go through a phase of being passionate about the dance itself, that becomes less important. :)

I feel comfortable leading a man in jive (challenging as well) and I would like to experience following if there was an easier way to learn so I wasn't so poor at it! That goes for any bona fide moves (as long as the other guy is equally comfortable about it). When it comes to tango I shirk at dancing with a man at close range (as was expected in one intermediate workshop) - I think that is because I feel comparatively insecure about myself as a tango dancer. I wouldn't enjoy the close proximity with a another man if it wasn't a shared intellectual pleasure in dance.

Slightly off thread, but there's another advantage for me in learning the woman's part, whether I dance it or not: if I know exactly what the woman needs to do I can lead it much better. This is more important in dances like salsa, but applies to some jive moves too IMO - things like awareness of which foot her weight is on. (Again, this something that is not taught enough IMO.)

Women can teach us so much about the way we dance - I'm all ears!
:cheers:

stewart38
25th-November-2003, 10:21 AM
I have felt uncomfortable dancing very rarely man to man.

No problem dancing the womens role with the man being the women :what:

One or two spins and I get dizzy.

Its interesting that some people think no feed back means a positive thing :sick:

Chris
25th-November-2003, 10:38 AM
Ceroc UK doesn't offer any official guidance on this, but women are never (in my experience anyway) formally invited to partner up with other women during a class. This reinforces the traditional element of it being a 'male led dance' (a phrase used by teachers), so I think it is not unreasonable for ladies to say they are there to dance with men.

It takes all types - I guess it's just a case of being sensitive to whether someone wants to dance with you (female, male, opposite sex or same sex).
:cheers:

Sandy
25th-November-2003, 11:30 AM
I've read all the posts and am very interested in the points of view. Generally speaking I don't particularly like dancing with other women but do understand the necessity for it at times (shortage of males at classes) and dancing with Lorna, Lisa, Sheena and a few others has been very educational and enjoyable! Had good dances with Lorna and Chicklet on holiday!

However, the boob thing comes into effect when doing moves like the "comb" or other UCP moves and I do have a bit of a problem with these!:blush:

That said, I have got used to it much more now and tend to have a laugh when bits clash:grin:

Sandy:wink:

Chris
25th-November-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Sandy
However, the boob thing comes into effect when doing moves like the "comb"

In case it's of interest - I find my combs have got better using a technique I found in salsa - especially when combing the follower's hair - the 'combed' hand has a natural direction - which is towards the back of that person's head; turning the hand, where appropriate, before combing (and using fingertip to fingertip hold of course) gives more room and is more comfortable. Try putting your own hand over your head - see how your chest sticks forward more if you try and keep the hand facing down or to the back.
:hug:

Sandy
25th-November-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Chris
Try putting your own hand over your head - see how your chest sticks forward more if you try and keep the hand facing down or to the back.
:hug:

Could be very interesting Chris:wink:

Chris
25th-November-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Sandy
Could be very interesting Chris:wink:

Agreed LOL - which also gives clues on the method to use if it gets too interesting :wink: :wink:

We also used to go over getting comfortable with eye-contact when I did taxi dancing.

Jean used to have a great method for teaching combs. I was demoing for her in a workshop and she could see some beginners were getting edgy about the physical proximity of combs. She explained that certain moves included momentary closeness and other moves were built on it, so get over it. To demonstrate she looked at me and said loudly, "Right stick your right leg up close between my legs." I did so and she threw herself into a swayback (Parisienne Lambada I think to UK Ceroccers). That shut them up - combs suddenly looked pretty tame by comparison.


NB this sort of phrase comes a lot better from a woman - men have to use different polite forms!

Emma
25th-November-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Sandy
However, the boob thing comes into effect when doing moves like the "comb" or other UCP moves and I do have a bit of a problem with these!:blush: Hee hee..have to say I generally avoid using these moves when leading, unless I am hamming it up with a friend :grin:. In a lesson if a comb comes up and I am leading someone who doesn't know me well enough to stare soulfully into my eyes at close quarters then I turn sideways!

I did have a very funny experience once during a class when I was leading and the move was that one where the lady puts her hands on the man's chest. The lady who was following must have forgotten I was a girl *ahem*. She was more embarrased by her mistake than I was. If that move comes up in a lesson now I tend to say 'go for the shoulders!' to the lady I'm leading, just to make sure it doesn't happen again...

spindr
25th-November-2003, 02:08 PM
Plus ca change...

"But it's not the same in the end
For a lady is never a gentleman, though
She may be your bosom friend."

From: OLD TYME DANCING (STATELY AS A GALLEON) by Joyce Grenfell

It's worth checking the full lyrics at: http://www.monologues.co.uk/Stately_as_a_Galleon.htm
[they were just too long to post in their entirety].

Neil.

Chris
25th-November-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by spindr
It's worth checking the full lyrics at: http://www.monologues.co.uk/Stately_as_a_Galleon.htm What a gem of a poem!
:rofl:

foxylady
25th-November-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Sandy
However, the boob thing comes into effect when doing moves like the "comb" or other UCP moves .....
:wink:


Last week in Cliff and Penny's class at the soon-to-be-defunct-I-hope Jive Bar, I did the intermediate class with a female friend of mine because there were far too many women, and most of the men were of a fairly dubious standard... One of the moves involved a 1.5 turn wrap (can't remember what it was called), which I have done frequently with men, but two women, shorter arms and two sets of boobs to consider it was completely impossible...... but so.. so.. funny - I laughed so much I cried...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Bardsey
25th-November-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
I only do it because I'd rather dance than stand around, but I feel that I am regarded as having 'other' (!) motives....:what:

Anyone else feel the same ??

I've just recently started taking the male lead in the beginners class sometimes when there are a lot of spare women. I quite enjoy it and I always try and make light of it with each woman partner in the line-up. Some absolute beginners are really glad to dance with another woman, some done't seem to be bothered and just occasionally I'll get one who clearly doesn't like it.

I'm the same as you Foxy, I do it cos its better than standing around not dancing and if the women who DON'T

Bardsey
25th-November-2003, 02:42 PM
AS I WAS SAYING...... the women who DON'T like it, then tough. Stand around like a lemon instead!:rofl:

Mikey
25th-November-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Chris
Agreed LOL - which also gives clues on the method to use if it gets too interesting :wink: :wink:

We also used to go over getting comfortable with eye-contact when I did taxi dancing.

Jean used to have a great method for teaching combs. I was demoing for her in a workshop and she could see some beginners were getting edgy about the physical proximity of combs. She explained that certain moves included momentary closeness and other moves were built on it, so get over it. To demonstrate she looked at me and said loudly, "Right stick your right leg up close between my legs." I did so and she threw herself into a swayback (Parisienne Lambada I think to UK Ceroccers). That shut them up - combs suddenly looked pretty tame by comparison.


Perhaps anyone with a shy barrier to get over should do my "strictly sinfull" classes at camber and Bignor.. If nothing else I can gaurantee every move after that should be less intimidating regards proximity... :rofl:

Emma
25th-November-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Bignor.. Is this a freudian slip? :what: :wink: :grin:

PS Mikey if you leave the /b and /quote tags at the end of the bits you are quoting then they will show as quotes instead of...what you're getting :wink: :cheers:

stewart38
25th-November-2003, 03:28 PM
Bardsey

If the women stand around like lemons won't they become bitter ?

ps How do you 'highlight' other peoples quotes

:confused:

Bardsey
25th-November-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
Bardsey

If the women stand around like lemons won't they become bitter ?

ps How do you 'highlight' other peoples quotes

:confused:

You just leave the and [/QUOTE] in place

Bardsey
25th-November-2003, 03:34 PM
oops that didn't work either. Anyway, you leave the B quotes in place.....sorry:blush:

Emma
25th-November-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
How do you 'highlight' other peoples quotes
:confused: May I refer the honourable gentleman to this :cheers: (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1112&highlight=quotes)

Sandy
25th-November-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by stewart38
Bardsey

If the women stand around like lemons won't they become bitter ?

ps How do you 'highlight' other peoples quotes

:confused:

or a bit dried up and wrinkled if they wait toooooooo long!:tears:

Bardsey
25th-November-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Sandy
or a bit dried up and wrinkled if they wait toooooooo long!:tears:

Or just compete sour-puss's (I had to be careful how I typed that :rofl: )

spindr
25th-November-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Bardsey
AS I WAS SAYING...... the women who DON'T like it, then tough. Stand around like a lemon instead!:rofl:

Be careful using the "l" word ;)
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=720&perpage=10&highlight=lemon&pagenumber=5

Neil.

Mikey
25th-November-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Bardsey
AS I WAS SAYING...... the women who DON'T like it, then tough. Stand around like a lemon instead!:rofl:


:sad: you know if the guys were saying this and refering to the women standing around as dried up lemons..:what: Blimey would the preverbial hit the fan or what !!!!:wink:

Sandy
25th-November-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
:sad: you know if the guys were saying this and refering to the women standing around as dried up lemons..:what: Blimey would the preverbial hit the fan or what !!!!:wink:

Yep, sometimes you just can't win!:wink:

plankton
25th-November-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Sheena
As a taxi-dancer I regularly dance as a man and I've never yet had any of the women I've had to partner complain about it (to my knowledge at least :wink: ). In fact when I dance the lead in the intemediate class some of the women seem absolutely delighted to end up dancing with me. I think a lot of that is down to the "using their strength" aspect of some of the newer intermediate male dancers. Being a woman and knowing how it feels to be wrenched into some moves makes me less likely to do that type of thing as a leader - I hope anyway *fingers crossed*
How about calling it dancing as leader ? I have had plenty of dances where the "woman" is determined to do her thing that she is in effect leading :devil:
I did the beginner's plus workshop on Saturday as a man and it was great! I would definitely recommend it.

I do think it would be very helpful if the guys danced the follower's part every now and then. Especially those guys who make you do twenty spins in a row or the ones who insist on doing drops on a busy dance floor - they might get the idea when it's their head that's an inch away from someone else's feet.At Hipsters (in Lindy) It is positively recommended that the positions are reversed. Rena suggests that you do the beginners lindy class twice through as your normal self and then do it again as your other self (as it were). It is scary but as you say atleast you know what you are doing (or not doing) to your dance partner. Whats more I found I could explain (when necessary)what was going wrong in terms my partner could understand.

At Bognor this year I swapped roles to do one of Nelson's classes much to the amusement (and confusion) of those arround. But I learnt how to correctly lead one move that I had been getting wrong, once I had experienced it being led (wrong) to me.
And I don't pretend to be a man when I'm leading - I'm still very much a girl :wink: and even the Magregster manages to remain male ....well relatively .... even when doing Lily:rofl:

Bardsey
26th-November-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Mikey
:sad: you know if the guys were saying this and refering to the women standing around as dried up lemons..:what: Blimey would the preverbial hit the fan or what !!!!:wink:

Ah well that's a female prerogative.... we can say it, but woe betide any man who whould utter such a thing :rofl:

Bardsey
26th-November-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Bardsey
Ah well that's a female prerogative.... we can say it, but woe betide any man who whould utter such a thing :rofl:

Ooops sorry, my spellings off, not woken up yet! Whould or should, that's the question.....sorry, I'll go back to sleep now zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

stewart38
26th-November-2003, 11:16 AM
This is just a test



Originally posted by Emma
May I refer the honourable gentleman to this :cheers: (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1112&highlight=quotes)

It works ?

Trish
14th-July-2004, 12:45 PM
As a taxi-dancer I regularly dance as a man and I've never yet had any of the women I've had to partner complain about it (to my knowledge at least :wink: ). In fact when I dance the lead in the intemediate class some of the women seem absolutely delighted to end up dancing with me. I think a lot of that is down to the "using their strength" aspect of some of the newer intermediate male dancers. Being a woman and knowing how it feels to be wrenched into some moves makes me less likely to do that type of thing as a leader - I hope anyway *fingers crossed*

I did the beginner's plus workshop on Saturday as a man and it was great! I would definitely recommend it.

And I don't pretend to be a man when I'm leading - I'm still very much a girl :wink:

I also dance the lead regularly - I started doing it because there weren't enough men, but actually now I like it! I sometimes dance with the men, but they're often quite difficult to lead and will turn in the wrong directions even if your lead is quite clear! They have mostly said to me that it does give them some idea of how difficult spinning and some moves are to follow though. And I sometimes try this with beginner men to get them to understand that their lead is too strong/too weak.

I like dancing with women as I find I can express the music better when leading - especially if it's something with breaks and interesting bits in it. Often I'd rather lead with a bluesy song than have a man lead me and not bother interpreting the music - at least I try to do this!

I have done both beginner and intermediate workshops as a man, and got a lot out of them. I also dance the lead a lot when I'm taxi dancing and like Sheena a lot of the women seem very pleased to dance with me (Including the more experienced women, which is flattering). You do get the odd girl who seems to doubt your sexual orientation though! I tend to grin and let them know I'm happily married, but some still don't like dancing with women - Oh well their loss!

If any of you guys are at a Peterborough/St Neots/Bedford freestyle I'd be happy to dance with you - lead, follow, male or female!!!

Trish

Zebra Woman
15th-July-2004, 08:08 PM
Oh yes me please Trish!
I was asked for 3 dances on the trot once by a 'leading' lady, I must say it did freak me out a bit at the time. :what:

I learned to dance the lead 'cos I wanted to dance and not be a 'bitter lemon' but I'm afraid it never feels the same to me.

To me dancing as a woman it feels like a rollercoaster ride, but more relaxing, it is a feeling experience not a thinking one - I'm almost in a trance. At the end of a dance I'm not sure what has happened.

This doesn't happen when I lead because I'm locked into a thinking mode almost all of the time. I feel the responsibilty for leading (arm wrestling would be easier with some women), interpreting the music, watching for interlopers, avoiding boobs, doing entertaining moves, thinking of the next move is so draining I don't enjoy the dance and get into the zone in the same way. Also I get bored with my moves. If I ask an experienced lady to dance, it feels great and I can start to feel the music, but I feel like I am wasting her time and I'm so unworthy. :(

I like to see men dance together for a laugh, although they scare me if they get very good at the feminine things (that's you Andy...). :tears:
I saw Viktor lead Amir in salsa at Southport. Amir was absolultey animated afterwards, I don't think he'd realised how much fun salsa could be. :worthy:

Neither had I.... :drool:

Sandy
16th-July-2004, 08:17 AM
A good female lead can teach you some lovely stylish moves while you are dancing. She can show you how to put in that little extra bit that makes your dancing look much better. I frequently dance with Sheena who has taught me some fabulous elegant and even sexy moves. Thanks for the dance last night Sheena :hug:

Sandy :wink:

Tiggerbabe
16th-July-2004, 08:27 AM
I frequently dance with Sheena who has taught me some fabulous elegant and even sexy moves.
Other way about I think Sandy :hug:
You're fab to dance with, and we always have such fun, I'll miss you at the party on Saturday but enjoy the wedding and we'll catch up next time.

Dance Demon
18th-July-2004, 10:22 AM
On the other side of the coin, I often see guys dancing together now. Think it started as a bit of fun, but I often see Auzzie David from Dundee dance as a follower with Jive Brummie, and Dave Hancock, and he does it so well. I've also watched him dance as the lead, and he's very good at that too.. :waycool:

Forte
18th-July-2004, 11:39 AM
I have followed Lorna, Sheena and Sparkles and enjoyed every minute of it. I just love partner dancing! All three of them were brilliant leaders I must say. I want to learn to lead eventually because I want to dance with my daughter. She's not quite sixteen yet so I can't bring her to ceroc until she's eighteen and if I learn to lead we can dance at home and at family functions! Hey! I did teach a boy and girl a kinda ceroc dance for the school show recently though! And I had to lead them both at various times during rehearsals... :what: They were much better than I could ever have hoped mostly because of her bravery, suppleness and his balance in a lift they made up themselves. The other moves I pinched from various workshops I have been on...thanks Franck, Amir and Andy and especially Sheena! :grin:

Jive Brummie
18th-July-2004, 12:59 PM
On the other side of the coin, I often see guys dancing together now. Think it started as a bit of fun, but I often see Auzzie David from Dundee dance as a follower with Jive Brummie, and Dave Hancock, and he does it so well. I've also watched him dance as the lead, and he's very good at that too.. :waycool:

Yes, have to admit to a bit of 'cross-dancing' and would even go as far to say, I enjoy it too.

If any guy's reading this get a chance to dance with David Chu from Dundee/Perth, then i strongly recommend you do...he is a fantastic leader and follower. I would even say that it has improved my dancing a wee bit too, because he made me realise how tricky it can be to sometimes follow certain moves and hence, has hopefully made me a more considerate dancer........

and besides all that, we have a right good laugh to boot. :rofl:

james x x

Andy McGregor
18th-July-2004, 02:06 PM
On the other side of the coin, I often see guys dancing together now. Think it started as a bit of fun,

I started dancing with guys about 3 years ago and came 3rd in the intermediates at Blackpool with Ben Borrego 2 1/2 years ago. At the time some people, always guys, were scandalised at the prospect that I might be gay. I had some guys get quite agressive with me saying things like "you gay or something?" in an agressive, confrontational manner :tears:

The funny thing is that nowadays, whilst most people see two guys dancing together as just dancing, some people still think I'm gay - but the nice thing is that nobody has a problem with it any more :flower:

At the Hammersmith competition Sheepman and I entered the Old Gits as a couple and our wives overheard quite a few people saying "those gay guys are good" in a nice complimentary way with no nastiness at all - changing times I think, in a nice, inclusive way :clap:

jivecat
18th-July-2004, 02:25 PM
I'm always completely fascinated to watch two men dancing together (much more than when two women dance together, I can't imagine why that is) but when I said to a chap I was dancing with how good it looked I got a response of the "Bloody disgusting, that's what it is," variety. Bet he wouldn't have said that about two women dancing together.

DianaS
18th-July-2004, 03:57 PM
A few guys dance together in our venue but ususally with a woman in between as a variation of the double trouble stuff. Since I've started dancing the lead, and have had to ask guys about aspects of it a couple of guys have suggested they would be interested in learning to follow.
I've never seen two guys dancing together in our venues but lots of girls, some of them straight and some are gay. I've danced with gay girls as well as straight ones as the follower, never had any problem with either, but lots of fun with both, and never had any comments from any one about it. Mind you one of the gay leads is so good, she's qued up for all night! :grin:

I sometimes wonder about the values that people have in venues, being a good dancer is attributed with lots of positive things, and quite naturally, so once you become good enough the things that kept you excluded seem to become insignificant.

Sandy
18th-July-2004, 06:02 PM
Other way about I think Sandy :hug:
You're fab to dance with, and we always have such fun, I'll miss you at the party on Saturday but enjoy the wedding and we'll catch up next time.


Thank you Sheena! Missed the party but had an ok time at wedding except not one ceroc dance all night!!! :tears: So frustrating! other dancing is ok for a while but only when topped up with some cerocing! I must learn to lead so that I can avoid a similar frustration in the future!

Hope you all had fun

See you soon

Sandy :hug: :wink:

Tiggerbabe
18th-July-2004, 09:31 PM
Hope you all had fun
We did! It was a fab Aberdeen party - great atmosphere, excellent music from Franck (playlist please :worthy: ) Matchmakers on the tables :drool: :drool: and great dances (special thanks to Steven, Sherwin, Rob, Franck........oooh the list is endless) - some with the girls too :wink: Karen, Yvonne, Aberdeen Linda and the best one of the night with the quiet one :hug: :flower: (that's Dundee Linda for anyone in any doubt) :rofl:

Trish
19th-July-2004, 11:23 AM
Oh yes me please Trish!


Hi Zebra Woman

If you're at a Ceroc Central freestyle and Rachel and Marc are around they know who I am and can introduce you if I'm there so I can whirl you round the floor (or vice versa if you fancy it) ;)! I can't always get to freestyle at the weekend as my husband doesn't dance, but I'll definitely be at the next St Neots if you're around (whether Rachel and Marc will be or not is anyone's guess though they're always so busy!)

However if you see a short girl with dark curly hair, glasses and big bosoms (probably wearing red/black) dancing with other girls please feel free to introduce yourself. I must try to get over to MK at some point, never managed it so far, but you never know! :)

Trish

Andy McGregor
19th-July-2004, 11:41 AM
However if you see a short girl with dark curly hair, glasses and big bosoms Trish

You sound lovely, I prefer short girls :wink: You can lead me any time...

under par
19th-July-2004, 11:44 AM
You sound lovely, I prefer short girls :wink: You can lead me any time...


But Andy when you actually get to meet Trish you will find she is relatively tall..................... :whistle:

Trish
19th-July-2004, 01:25 PM
You sound lovely, I prefer short girls :wink: You can lead me any time...

Thanks Andy - only if you promise to behave yourself :wink: ! I can't be doing with these guys that pretend to follow and then start leading... :whistle:

Andy McGregor
19th-July-2004, 02:41 PM
Thanks Andy - only if you promise to behave yourself :wink: ! I can't be doing with these guys that pretend to follow and then start leading... :whistle:

I always follow - unless the guy starts missing the breaks :(

And even then I give them the lead back at the end of the bar :flower:

When a woman is leading me I keep following 'til the end of the track, or until they say "I don't know any more moves, can you take over now please" which they do say quite often.

Trish
19th-July-2004, 02:45 PM
When a woman is leading me I keep following 'til the end of the track, or until they say "I don't know any more moves, can you take over now please" which they do say quite often.

I'm glad to hear you follow properly! You wouldn't find me running out of moves, I probably know more moves than most of the guys I know and get guys asking me to teach them moves (what is worse I usually can!).

I must learn to dance as a girl :blush: :)

TheTramp
9th-January-2006, 06:02 PM
I always follow...

You think?? :whistle:

ElaineB
18th-January-2006, 01:27 PM
Did my very first class as a beginner lead this week and really enjoyed myself. I concentrated very hard on my lead and found it very interesting being 'on the other side'! I encountered all the types of followers that have been discussed on the forum elsewhere (spaghetti arms, anticipating etc), but the funniest thing was the look on their faces when they saw me. Most of them were quite OK being led by a woman, but a few of them looked really worried! Luckily I asked Simon to stand next to me and then introduced my worried 'victims' to him as my partner - instant relaxation on their part!

I am going to have another bash next week.........I can sort out the one who anticipates, but 'spaghetti' arms needs a bit longer methinks!


Elaine

marty_baby
18th-January-2006, 04:43 PM
...aaawwww Elaine its very sweet to hear how you are getting on! :)


The ladie followers were surprized when confronted with you? Oh... I wouldn't worry about that! You are quite a tall lady with a presence about you... goes with the territory! :hug: Introductions by Simon? good solution to break the ice!


Spagetti arms eh? It will be interesting to see how you go about helping the ladies with this!


Martin :)





Did my very first class as a beginner lead this week and really enjoyed myself. I concentrated very hard on my lead and found it very interesting being 'on the other side'! I encountered all the types of followers that have been discussed on the forum elsewhere (spaghetti arms, anticipating etc), but the funniest thing was the look on their faces when they saw me. Most of them were quite OK being led by a woman, but a few of them looked really worried! Luckily I asked Simon to stand next to me and then introduced my worried 'victims' to him as my partner - instant relaxation on their part!

I am going to have another bash next week.........I can sort out the one who anticipates, but 'spaghetti' arms needs a bit longer methinks!


Elaine

robd
20th-January-2006, 04:36 PM
I asked one of my favourite followers why she was learning to lead as I have concerns (which may or may not prove groundless) that it may adversely affect her (currently) lovely light touch and responsiveness. Her response was that it was a practical thing and that when they go out as a group sometimes (always!) there aren't enough men to go round and it's better for her to be leading than sitting out.

LMC
22nd-January-2006, 11:51 AM
That was my main motivation for learning to lead. After a couple of goes in September, I really only started to learn to lead "properly" in mid-November. Two months and not sure how many beginner lessons later, I'm still a beginner lead - because I'm deliberately taking it v-e-r-y slowly to ensure I can continue to improve my following (or at least try!), 'cos that's what I prefer to do :nice: Leading makes a nice change, but is hard work - :worthy: beginner guys who stick with it - I'll try to make it worth your while :devil:

Lynn
26th-January-2006, 01:44 PM
Did my very first class as a beginner lead this week and really enjoyed myself. I concentrated very hard on my lead and found it very interesting being 'on the other side'! Not my very first class, (I have done a couple as lead) but first in what will hopefully be fairly regular classes as I want to learn to lead. I agree it was very interesting to see what it was like leading and how some of the women were responding. I'm sure my lead probably wasn't very good, but I will perservere with it though!

elle
26th-January-2006, 06:49 PM
I have no problem dancing with a woman as the lead, and I would try it myself (once I learn how to dance in the first place!). No point in sitting out just because I'm a girl!

TheTramp
27th-January-2006, 03:09 AM
I have no problem dancing with a woman as the lead, and I would try it myself

I have no problem dancing with a woman as the lead, and I'll look forward to letting you lead me :whistle: