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Phil_dB
13th-February-2009, 03:56 PM
Here I am starting yet another advice wanted thread. I have a few little queries, if any of you experienced dancers are a little bored & fancy commenting I’d be very interested in what you have to say (as always). I will ask my most important question first.

Posture. I’ve really been trying to improve this of late. Would anyone be able to confirm whether I am on the right or wrong track? Any other words of advice would be very appreciated. This is what I've been thinking about when dancing:

Keep myself upright. Even when lunging etc keep my torso upright.
Dance on the balls of my feet.
Keep body weight OVER my feet as I move.
Don’t look at my feet.



Accordions: I’m currently aiming to perfect the Accordion Flamenco & Accordion Lady Spin Walkarounds, - but what is the best way of getting into the cross hand hold? So far i’ve been using an anti-clockwise turn, and then sticking out my left hand low after the spin and hoping she’ll take hold (she always does to be fair), - but is there a smoother way? Can I pick up her left hand with my left earlier (as she's spinning by collecting her hand high)? Or do you more commonly use double handed travelling returns? Or Yo-yo hips?





Other little thoughts I've had on a few "bridging" moves from reading around:

Apparently the Side to Side is cringeworthy. I use these on occasion (!), I have seen them being done by people who just "plod" together and "plod" apart again, and I agree that that looks slightly rubbish (but then ANY move looks rubbish performed badly, surely) - I don't think the move is really that bad? Hard to explain on here - but I feel it can really 'flow', I feel a nice connection with it. I used to think that, provided it was done smoothly, maybe with a tiny sprinkling of style (possibly letting your feet slide a fraction and roll your arm along the follows as you block), a 1 x side-to-side was a nice enough momentum-building/connection-establishing move to do before a travelling return & something more interesting , - but now I’m thinking, if they really annoy followers that much I should drop them ASAP!?

Returns, - bad news. To be honest i don't know if I use many of these or not :confused: its not something I think about, - I’m too busy thinking about everything else. Should I replace all of them with traveling returns, - or just try and cut them out completely? It’s interesting that i've only recently heard that on the spot returns should be scrapped.

Step accross, - another bad one apparently!? I'm not adverse to these either now & again (!), - once in a while it offers a variation from the more commonly used travelling return, and I think the moves feels quite good travelling accross and turning/leading with your body & bringing your elbow down to snap the follow round to face. Should I get rid of these also!?

geoff332
13th-February-2009, 05:08 PM
Posture. I’ve really been trying to improve this of late. Would anyone be able to confirm whether I am on the right or wrong track? Any other words of advice would be very appreciated. This is what I've been thinking about when dancing:

Keep myself upright. Even when lunging etc keep my torso upright.
Dance on the balls of my feet.
Keep body weight OVER my feet as I move.
Don’t look at my feet.Shoulders back. The two metaphors I use are to put your shoulder blades in my hip pockets and to draw myself up by a thread running straight up my spine to the top of my head. I tend to slouch forward too much.


Accordions: I’m currently aiming to perfect the Accordion Flamenco & Accordion Lady Spin Walkarounds, - but what is the best way of getting into the cross hand hold? So far i’ve been using an anti-clockwise turn, and then sticking out my left hand low after the spin and hoping she’ll take hold (she always does to be fair), - but is there a smoother way? Can I pick up her left hand with my left earlier (as she's spinning by collecting her hand high)? Or do you more commonly use double handed travelling returns? Or Yo-yo hips?Am I missing something here? I assume you're starting from a right/right hold. In which case, there are a multitude of options for how to shift to a double hand hold. Most involve offering the left hand at some point. The "best" way depends entirely on what move you're coming out of, what mood your in, which way the wind's currently blowing and the third digit of her parent's phone number.

As a rule, grabbing someone's hand while their spinning is a bad idea: it's most likely to mess with their balance. Get the left hand before the turn or after it, but not in the middle of it.


Apparently the Side to Side is cringeworthy.I can't speak for a follower, but, yes, as a rule, they are not even worthy of cringing at. The problem is they are very, very rarely done with any panache. I occasionally use a single one to buy some space or to set-up the next move. For me, it's a cheap version of a return. That said, some people like them - so I wouldn't pay too much attention to my comments.

Returns ... Should I replace all of them with traveling returns, - or just try and cut them out completely?Nope. A return is simply a spot turn. Trying to remove spot turns is doomed to failure. When you begin, returns are a way to buy time and space and to reset the dance; they become less important as your develop over time. But they will always have a place.

It’s interesting that i've only recently heard that on the spot returns should be scrapped.I wonder where you heard that...

Step accross, - another bad one apparently!? I'm not adverse to these either now & again (!), - once in a while it offers a variation from the more commonly used travelling return, and I think the moves feels quite good travelling accross and turning/leading with your body & bringing your elbow down to snap the follow round to face. Should I get rid of these also!?Again, I wonder where you've heard that it's bad?

In general, I'd worry less about whether a particular move's "good" or "bad" and more about whether you're enjoying your dancing and whether you're executing the moves you do use well or not.

Andy McGregor
13th-February-2009, 08:04 PM
Posture. I’ve really been trying to improve this of late. Would anyone be able to confirm whether I am on the right or wrong track? Any other words of advice would be very appreciated. This is what I've been thinking about when dancing:

Keep myself upright. Even when lunging etc keep my torso upright.
Dance on the balls of my feet.
Keep body weight OVER my feet as I move.
Don’t look at my feet.Don't exaggerate your upright posture by pulling your shoulders back like you're a soldier coming to attention. The best way to simplify correct posture is to use your centring knob (ooh err!). Simply feel down your spine from the back of spine from your head: when you come to a bump push that straight back. That's it.

.. and don't forget to breathe.


Accordions: I’m currently aiming to perfect the Accordion Flamenco & Accordion Lady Spin Walkarounds, - but what is the best way of getting into the cross hand hold? So far i’ve been using an anti-clockwise turn, and then sticking out my left hand low after the spin and hoping she’ll take hold (she always does to be fair), - but is there a smoother way? Can I pick up her left hand with my left earlier (as she's spinning by collecting her hand high)? Or do you more commonly use double handed travelling returns? Or Yo-yo hips?Sorry can't help. It sounds like you're looking for problems where none exist :wink:


Apparently the Side to Side is cringeworthy. I use these on occasion (!), I have seen them being done by people who just "plod" together and "plod" apart again, and I agree that that looks slightly rubbish (but then ANY move looks rubbish performed badly, surely) - I don't think the move is really that bad? Hard to explain on here - but I feel it can really 'flow', I feel a nice connection with it. I used to think that, provided it was done smoothly, maybe with a tiny sprinkling of style (possibly letting your feet slide a fraction and roll your arm along the follows as you block), a 1 x side-to-side was a nice enough momentum-building/connection-establishing move to do before a travelling return & something more interesting , - but now I’m thinking, if they really annoy followers that much I should drop them ASAP!?I used to teach the side-to-side as a beginners move. Then I realised that I do not use this move at all in freestyle. And it doesn't use the normal RLRL lady's footwork. So why teach it? :confused: You could do it as a mirrored ocho and lead it one-handed - but then it wouldn't really be a side-to-side :confused: I say stop doing this move it does look naff and makes the lady do different footwork from the MJ basic - which is wrong for a beginners move.


Returns, - bad news. To be honest i don't know if I use many of these or not :confused: its not something I think about, - I’m too busy thinking about everything else. Should I replace all of them with traveling returns, - or just try and cut them out completely? It’s interesting that i've only recently heard that on the spot returns should be scrapped.Nothing wrong with returns on the spot. They are a useful way of helping the lady recover her balance after some moves. What is wrong is the repetitive use of returns on the spot after every single move. Travelling returns have their place but would be equally out of place if they followed every move. Use them in moderation is probably the answer.


Step accross, - another bad one apparently!? I'm not adverse to these either now & again (!), - once in a while it offers a variation from the more commonly used travelling return, and I think the moves feels quite good travelling accross and turning/leading with your body & bringing your elbow down to snap the follow round to face. Should I get rid of these also!?Nothing wrong with this move. It gets things moving and gets the guys used to turning under their own hand - in my experience this is something many guys struggle with.


Another Naff Move for Room 101

Finally, while we're talking about naff moves, there is a move I think should be dropped. It is overused and guys seem to think it's OK to wiggle like a girl while executing this move - the fountain/halleluja :sick:

It seems that many guys see this move as the only way to get out of the crossed hand rr/ll hold. There's plenty of other moves that smoothly exit this hold, and you could just release the left hand and do a rr move next.

emmylou25
13th-February-2009, 08:22 PM
Another Naff Move for Room 101

Finally, while we're talking about naff moves, there is a move I think should be dropped. It is overused and guys seem to think it's OK to wiggle like a girl while executing this move - the fountain/halleluja :sick:

It seems that many guys see this move as the only way to get out of the crossed hand rr/ll hold. There's plenty of other moves that smoothly exit this hold, and you could just release the left hand and do a rr move next.

And to that I say (H)alleluia!

Gadget
14th-February-2009, 03:40 AM
Posture. I’ve really been trying to improve this of late. Would anyone be able to confirm whether I am on the right or wrong track? Any other words of advice would be very appreciated. This is what I've been thinking about when dancing:

Keep myself upright. Even when lunging etc keep my torso upright.
Dance on the balls of my feet.
Keep body weight OVER my feet as I move.
Don’t look at my feet.
I've been trying to get decent posture for years... I'm better, but spend too much time hunched over a computer screen and too much time looking down. I did hear of someone in Oz wearing a back-brace to try and train themselves to dance straighter (actually I think it was their competition partner that convinced them of it :what: )

Too much 'posture' and you can look like ballroom, or at least snooty and aloof. The idea I think is to project an air of confidence and elegance. The tips about shoulders are spot on - I was taught to roll the shoulders up, back and then drop them. What I do now is take as big a breath in as I can, then keep my pose as I breathe out. This also helps through moves where you want to show some 'mastery' - breathing in to raise the rib cage.

The head is important too: you've got it right about not looking at the feet - it pulls your head down, shoulders forward and changes your balance. But too high or tilting your head backwards makes you loose connection with your partner and appear disinterested and aloof. I try and remember to keep the head 'back' so the bit where skull joins spine is actually over the spine.

Body upright - not really, just don't stick your bum out. On lunges and leans, (in dancing terms) it looks more aesthetically pleasing if there are straight lines and smooth curves; take the line from the floor, up your leg and match your torso's lean to it. On combs and ducking moves, bend the knees and roll the head if you have to, but try to avoid leaning forward. For all these sorts of moves, make sure you are close to your partner - much easier, looks better and feels better.

Balls of feet - kind of; just be careful you don't turn this into a 'bounce'. There is also the temptation to simply tap the foot out on certain movements (like the step back) rather than actually commit your weight & move yourself. The faster the music, the more the knees bend and the weight comes forward onto the balls of your feet. The slower the music, the more the weight moves back to being committed to the whole foot.
There are also times when you want to take your partner's weight and need a solid stance (and other times when you just want to look like you have a strong stance ;))

Body weight OVER feet - kind of; you want to be balanced through out the dance. Especially on counts where you are leading the follower to change direction. How you achieve this is up to you, but I don't think I would be concentrating on body weigh - just balance.

The people with good posture tend to come from a ballroom background, but that's a bit too 'tight' for my liking. Perhaps try some ballroom and take some of that styling into your MJ?


Accordions: I’m currently aiming to perfect the Accordion Flamenco & Accordion Lady Spin Walkarounds, - but what is the best way of getting into the cross hand hold? So far i’ve been using an anti-clockwise turn, and then sticking out my left hand low after the spin and hoping she’ll take hold (she always does to be fair), - but is there a smoother way? Can I pick up her left hand with my left earlier (as she's spinning by collecting her hand high)? Or do you more commonly use double handed travelling returns? Or Yo-yo hips?
Millions of ways to do this. The most common I've seen taught is the "secret" where you start R-R and the left is offered at your right hip as the follower is taken in for a yo-yo. The other common way is from a sway and offer in-front. You can also keep hold on the catapult exit then collect on the follower completing the turn.

Personally I find the ways to collect the hands and get into a move far more interesting than the move it's self. You have 14(?) beginner moves. Try and work out how to blend/end each of them into an accordion type move: You know the basic bit, you know the accordion bit - just get creative in the bit between :D



Apparently the Side to Side is cringeworthy. I use these on occasion (!), I have seen them being done by people who just "plod" together and "plod" apart again, and I agree that that looks slightly rubbish (but then ANY move looks rubbish performed badly, surely) - I don't think the move is really that bad? Hard to explain on here - but I feel it can really 'flow', I feel a nice connection with it. I used to think that, provided it was done smoothly, maybe with a tiny sprinkling of style (possibly letting your feet slide a fraction and roll your arm along the follows as you block), a 1 x side-to-side was a nice enough momentum-building/connection-establishing move to do before a travelling return & something more interesting , - but now I’m thinking, if they really annoy followers that much I should drop them ASAP!?
Na. If only because it will annoy Andy ;)
There are other moves that use the footwork and motion that the side-to-side introduces. (hence the reason for it being a beginner move) Most obvious is the 'ceroc spin' (american spin, lady spin, block spin... whatever you want to call it).

Most folk don't use their off hand, so the move is bland. Or use it and the move is cheesy.

Do something different with it and it becomes an easy move with a unique twist: I've hooked the follower's arm over mine and went for a sunday stroll; Slide across the back and catch right to left (unusual hold); Looped the hand over for a side-comb; continued the momentum into a barrel roll.... etc. I have never heard of any follower express a dislike for this move. 'In-and-out' and 'hallelujah', yes. Side-to-side, no.


Returns, - bad news. To be honest i don't know if I use many of these or not :confused: its not something I think about, - I’m too busy thinking about everything else. Should I replace all of them with traveling returns, - or just try and cut them out completely? It’s interesting that i've only recently heard that on the spot returns should be scrapped.
It used to be that every move ended with a turn or return. Gave a distinct 'feel' and 'look' to the dance. Also meant that to go from one move to any other move was dead easy - return, step back and you can do any other move. Easy to recover, easy to learn, nice stable format for beginners.
BUT there were/are disadvantages too; it doesn't flow quite as well as it could, it is hard to un-learn, and stifled creativity. Only the more experienced dancers could break the rules and join/blend moves easily.

Now you will find that there are only one or two returns in a routine; it's not really an issue. The important thing is to try and either lead a static turn/return or lead a travelling return. If you just go with it and see what happens, then it can begin to look untidy and un-controlled.

[/quote]Step accross, - another bad one apparently!? I'm not adverse to these either now & again (!), - once in a while it offers a variation from the more commonly used travelling return, and I think the moves feels quite good travelling accross and turning/leading with your body & bringing your elbow down to snap the follow round to face. Should I get rid of these also!?[/QUOTE]??:confused: First I've heard. Any move used again and again and again and again and again... will become a 'bad' one.

The same advice as with the travelling returns: be aware of where you want to move to and where the follower is moving to. Step across, shoulder-slide, man-spin. The first combo I put together and still use on occasion.

BTW the 'hallelujah' - Simple, easy, two counts, can introduce arm-leads (as opposed to hand leads) and is a quick way to disentangle without dropping and catching again. I don't think any moves should be 'removed'... with the exception of those that remove both the follower's feet from the ground.



PS : worthy : respect for thinking while dancing.

Andy McGregor
14th-February-2009, 01:18 PM
BTW the 'hallelujah' - Simple, easy, two counts, can introduce arm-leads (as opposed to hand leads) and is a quick way to disentangle without dropping and catching again.I think the problem with this move comes when guys take either four or eight beats and sort of wiggle their way towards their partners while fountaining their hands up and out. Using two beats means that the problem is 75% better. But still 25% bad if the guy wiggles like a girlie.

I do teach a variation which I call the "Pulp Fiction". It's similar to but unlike the 'allelujah and done over two beats, possibly four. All you do is bring your palm-to-palm hands up between your faces and part them to reveal your handsome and smiling face - or any other facial expression you have chosen to delight your partner.

Why "Pulp Fiction" - John Travolta did a similar move and he is the coolest guy on the planet, just pipping Cliff Richard :wink:

Martin
14th-February-2009, 03:44 PM
Here I am starting yet another advice wanted thread. I have a few little queries, if any of you experienced dancers are a little bored & fancy commenting I’d be very interested in what you have to say (as always). I will ask my most important question first.

Cool, this is a good thread then, as I am a little bored and fancy commenting :D




Posture. I’ve really been trying to improve this of late. Would anyone be able to confirm whether I am on the right or wrong track? Any other words of advice would be very appreciated. This is what I've been thinking about when dancing:

Keep myself upright. Even when lunging etc keep my torso upright.
Dance on the balls of my feet.
Keep body weight OVER my feet as I move.
Don’t look at my feet.



A good way to confirm if you are on the right track is to video yourself, see what you think of your posture, then if there is something to work on, try it out and video yourself again.





Apparently the Side to Side is cringeworthy.


Yes



I use these on occasion


Don't



I should drop them ASAP

Yes




Returns, - bad news. To be honest i don't know if I use many of these or not :confused: its not something I think about, - I’m too busy thinking about everything else. Should I replace all of them with traveling returns, - or just try and cut them out completely? It’s interesting that i've only recently heard that on the spot returns should be scrapped.

Returns are fine, they give the girl time to get on balance and onto the correct foot for the next move.



Step accross, - another bad one apparently!? I'm not adverse to these either now & again (!), - once in a while it offers a variation from the more commonly used travelling return, and I think the moves feels quite good travelling accross and turning/leading with your body & bringing your elbow down to snap the follow round to face. Should I get rid of these also!?

Step across is also fine.


All opinions expressed above are , well, just opinions :D

David Bailey
14th-February-2009, 07:42 PM
Apparently the Side to Side is cringeworthy.
:shrug:

I like it, and use it, on occasion - far more so than weird moves like the pretzel to be honest. What's wrong with it? It fits into the standard accordion motion of Modern Jive.


Returns, - bad news. To be honest i don't know if I use many of these or not :confused: its not something I think about, - I’m too busy thinking about everything else. Should I replace all of them with traveling returns, - or just try and cut them out completely?
I wouldn't worry about it.


It’s interesting that i've only recently heard that on the spot returns should be scrapped.
Huh? :confused:


Step accross, - another bad one apparently!? I'm not adverse to these either now & again (!), - once in a while it offers a variation from the more commonly used travelling return, and I think the moves feels quite good travelling accross and turning/leading with your body & bringing your elbow down to snap the follow round to face. Should I get rid of these also!?
Dunno. I don't use it much myself, but I don't have strong feelings about it.

I do have strong feelings about some moves - see the "Moves from Hell (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5525)" thread.

But mostly, moves are what you make them.

~Jo~
15th-February-2009, 04:23 PM
:nice:Hi

I've always noticed some of the taller guys have very rounded shoulders and necks that are bent forwards and it's like they are always hunched and looking down while they're dancing, probably from always dancing with women much shorter than themselves, but it is my pet hate in male posture...I don't think the nose turned up, shoulders right back chest puffed out look is any better, but just no hunching or staring at the floor...


I think the problem with this move comes when guys take either four or eight beats and sort of wiggle their way towards their partners while fountaining their hands up and out. Using two beats means that the problem is 75% better. But still 25% bad if the guy wiggles like a girlie.


:rofl:ahhhh sorry this sparked memories in my head. Theres this one man who I sometimes freestyle with who ALWAYS does hallelujah's really slowly and cheesily while wiggling with a really queer look on his face and possible I think he winks sometimes too. I feel like an idiot waiting for him to finish his incredibly slooooooow attempt. It can be good though, if you sass it up a bit and do it faster.

Lory
15th-February-2009, 04:54 PM
Posture. I’ve really been trying to improve this of late. Any other words of advice would be very appreciated. I've heard it said by many instructions I respect, that before every dance you should think about your posture and consciously rotate your shoulders 'up - back and down'

I've seen some people, who've tried to correct rounded shoulders and/or a stoop by simply raising their head and eyes to look skywards, which quite frankly, looks bizarre :what:


Apparently the Side to Side is cringeworthy. Well, i can't speak for anyone else but personally, I love the occasional cheesy move :na:

But saying that, I can't remember the last time I followed one, exactly as its taught in the lessons! :wink:


Returns, - bad news.
Not really, I'd say they are good for adding 'thinking time' and padding stuff out when your a beginner and haven't got many moves.
As you start to expand your repertoire, I think that returns 'naturally' become used less and less often.
I'd rather be doing a return or maybe a double return, than a arm jive, any old day!


Step accross, - another bad one apparently!?

- snip-

Should I get rid of these also!?As you said, if any move is done badly, then it becomes naff but if its done stylishly or with humour appropriate to the music, then IMO, anything goes! :yeah:

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2009, 05:32 PM
:nice:Hi

I've always noticed some of the taller guys have very rounded shoulders and necks that are bent forwards and it's like they are always hunched and looking down while they're dancing, probably from always dancing with women much shorter than themselves, but it is my pet hate in male posture...There are certain tall guys who have their shoulders hunched forward who then lift their heads to look at their partner. Those with a long neck and pronounced Adam's apple look very unattractive - not that I'm complaining, tall guys doing their bit to look ugly gives us shorter, but devilishly handsome :innocent:, guys a chance with the ladies :wink:

Phil_dB
15th-February-2009, 06:38 PM
Great to see the 'big guns' have stopped by to pass comment. Some really great advice here, - THANK-YOU everyone. :worthy: :worthy:


Also thank-you Claire S for your rep comment, - but I don't know who you are as there's no link to your profile :nice:







In general, I'd worry less about whether a particular move's "good" or "bad" and more about whether you're enjoying your dancing and whether you're executing the moves you do use well or not.
+


But mostly, moves are what you make them.

I agree.

It's not what you do, it's the way that you do it.





The other common way is from a sway and offer in-front.

:doh: Of course. Now it's this sort of stuff that I should really be piecing together by myself.






A good way to confirm if you are on the right track is to video yourself, see what you think of your posture, then if there is something to work on, try it out and video yourself again.


I can imagine you can really learn a lot from watching yourself on video....

I have been working on the footwork on my left handed travelling returns. This is what I do (either skip this long and probably boring bit, or, feel free to comment on how I can improve!): -

(Start with right foot back.) JUST before pulling the follow towards me my left foot takes a tiny little step to my left. I pull the follow straight forward towards me through the 'slot' as I take a BIG step forward on my right foot well over to my left in order for the follow to move straight forward through the 'slot' (my left hand at now around shoulder height). I now start to turn my body to the right on my right foot, leading hand is now over head height gathering compression which will automatically turn the follow around to face - at the same time, I am now turning 180 degrees around to face the follow. I then step back on my right.

So, including the initial tiny little side step I'm doing FOUR steps. Travelling ALL the way around the follow so she can travel in a straight line, means the Lead travels much further than the follow,- especially the last step when you turn 180 to face and immediately step and put your weight back. It feels great actually, - I do like to move. I wanted to check that I was doing it okay, so I lead the invisible man a travelling return whilst looking in the mirror.... (:what:!) ... - Nice 'whippy' movement, - but, something was wrong!?????.... - Ah! That's what it is; - on the last step back I lifted my right foot up to step back! Okay, - tried again, keeping both feet connected/sliding on the floor at all times, also tried to keep my feet close when stepping pass each other. MUCH better.

So I will try and bear this in mind all all moves now, - keep feet connected with the floor at all times! I was aware of this, but its amazing how you can be oblivious to the little details when you're dancing. So yes, video sounds like a great learning tool.

I actually had some nice (unasked for) feedback this weekend, - a follow said that I have a nice style, - I said "really?" - she said, yes, you have a nice posture when you dance! :grin: Sorry I don't mean that to sound boastful, but its nice to get an encouraging comment now and again, especially as I beat myself up quite a bit to be honest.

If I am comfortable with a move I can work-on/think-about posture, - I think its when you're learning new moves and maybe you're struggling with them you're too busy thinking about the move, and then posture can take a back seat, - the old bum can stick out etc. Just a case of learning one thing at a time


As a side comment, I find it quite annoying that Ceroc do not teach footwork most of the time. Often I have to work it out by myself, - I hate having to 'fudge' footwork.



Hi

Theres this one man who I sometimes freestyle with who ALWAYS does hallelujah's really slowly and cheesily while wiggling with a really queer look on his face and possible I think he winks sometimes too.

I had to straight away had to look to see where you were from, if you hadn't been so far away I would've been sure I knew who you were talking about! The bloke I reguarly see who does this - "acts" as though the Follow is resisting his arms. He really dramatises it, making it look as though he's using his full strength to push the follows arms down, - a bit like an arm wrestle, - the arms stagger down slowly in stages.

ducasi
16th-February-2009, 01:10 AM
Posture... There are few dancers – indeed, few people – who could not do with better posture. Myself very much included. I reckon external activities such as yoga, pilates or, without leaving the dance world, Tango or Ballroom, can help here.

The side-to-side, as taught, is pretty naff. Especially with the added "Mmmmm"s that you get in Dundee. ;) That said, I've found myself doing something that resembles the side-to-side recently – only when my follower and I are already in a "side to side" position, and I try to keep it cheese-free (only one "side-to-side", no over-elaborate decoration.) It's really just the same as an in-and-out followed by a change of places, and as such, has a place in the dance.

Step-across, similar, not to be over-used, but nothing really wrong with it.

Oh, and same with the "hallelujah". Made cheese-free, there's nothing wrong with it.

The return is a great way to help beginners, but it can interrupt the flow of the dance. The travelling return is, however, one of the most important moves in Modern Jive.

David Bailey
16th-February-2009, 10:09 AM
On the side-to-side move:

But saying that, I can't remember the last time I followed one, exactly as its taught in the lessons! :wink:

I quite like doing variations on this - the "half-weight" side-to-sides, the in-and-pause-and-out variation, or one where I stand still and lead the lady side-to-side. Like all basic simple moves, it's got a lot of potential for variation and expansion.

Gadget
16th-February-2009, 03:23 PM
I have been working on the footwork on my left handed travelling returns. ...
Only a couple of points:
- Sticking to this footwork you are tied to only doing these when you're on the "correct" foot ie your weight on the right foot so you can take the first tiny step to the left. (Actually, shouldn't this be a step back rather than to the left? If it's not, then I think you may be starting too far away from your partner... unless you are in Andy's classes ;)) And if you are stepping slightly left, you are not pulling your partner towards you, but slightly to your right. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are aware of it.

- The "big" step in; are you stepping past your partner? If so, then you are probably starting your follower turning before you complete your step - which makes your turning to face snappier. If you step forward shorter on this step, then you can make your partner's turning to face snappier on the next step.

- By stepping round your partner, yes, you are moving further, and it can feel smoother for the follower, and it is giving you an idea of floorcraft and controlling the follower's position on the floor. However you are not sharing the movement. Personally I prefer a () movement rather than a C| movement - but that's my tastes. :)


Okay, - tried again, keeping both feet connected/sliding on the floor at all times, also tried to keep my feet close when stepping pass each other. MUCH better.
Any time your feet pass each other, you should try and keep your feet close; looks (and feels) much more controlled. You should also try this when turning/spinning - feet close, use the trailing foot to break and stop on, then step back on the foot you were just spinning on. (Two stages: stop, then step. Smooth them out once you've got it, but the feet together until it's time to step back is the key bit.)


As a side comment, I find it quite annoying that Ceroc do not teach footwork most of the time. Often I have to work it out by myself, - I hate having to 'fudge' footwork.I don't find it annoying at all: I find it quite liberating. For example in the above advice, it's just advice - not a right or wrong way. If you find something works better for you, then well done! (and let me know ;)). I sometimes do the complete opposite to the above and leg sweep... just got to be careful of neighbouring dancers :whistle:

It's not fudging - it's improvisation :cool:

robd
18th-February-2009, 10:33 AM
Great to see the 'big guns' have stopped by to pass comment.

Big guns? LOL, don't believe the hype.

Advice from a water pistol:

Posture
Probably the thing that lets MJ down the most from an aesthetic POV (and, yes, the feel of a social dance should always take priority over the look but they are not always mutually exclusive) is the preponderance of hunched over leaders. Stand up straight. That doesn't mean Queen's Palace Guard ram-rod straight but take those shoulders up, down and back. Leave some flex in the knee.

Side to side
Personal choice. You like it? Then lead it. You don't then don't. Within the bounds of safety don't let the whims of others dictate how you dance. Stylish execution or not, like most patterns, is dependent on the dancers not the move.

Step across
No problem at all. I like this one. I tend to add an ACW turn for the follower having just passed her - this was taught in a Ceroc intermediate class I attended and I just could not get it at all. Suddenly a few months later it was working no problem in freestyle so I think the timing is crucial. On a standard step across take care that neither partner has taken steps too big if you plan to snap around to face as you may end up painfully hyper-extended.

Phil_dB
18th-February-2009, 10:50 AM
The travelling return is, however, one of the most important moves in Modern Jive.

Can I ask why exactly?




Only a couple of points:
- Sticking to this footwork you are tied to only doing these when you're on the "correct" foot ie your weight on the right foot so you can take the first tiny step to the left.
Good point, - & more homework for me..



(Actually, shouldn't this be a step back rather than to the left? If it's not, then I think you may be starting too far away from your partner... unless you are in Andy's classes )

I've already stepped back on my right, that's where i've described the position from (ie, the point where we've both stepped back) i'm standing straight in front of my partner, so the tiny step to the left just makes a little more room for her to walk through just before I pull her forward to change positions.

Maybe I've misunderstood what you're getting at..?

Having said all this, - in a fast freestyle, the tiny step to the side, may go out the window. It was more of something which came together during class and slow tracks. I will continue to practice/experiment...




And if you are stepping slightly left, you are not pulling your partner towards you, but slightly to your right. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are aware of it.

Yes, very aware of that :nice:




- The "big" step in; are you stepping past your partner? If so, then you are probably starting your follower turning before you complete your step - which makes your turning to face snappier. If you step forward shorter on this step, then you can make your partner's turning to face snappier on the next step.

Ah right, - I will experiment with this, - thanks.




- By stepping round your partner, yes, you are moving further, and it can feel smoother for the follower, and it is giving you an idea of floorcraft and controlling the follower's position on the floor. However you are not sharing the movement. Personally I prefer a () movement rather than a C| movement - but that's my tastes.

Ah, okay. I like learning about these subtle differences.




Any time your feet pass each other, you should try and keep your feet close; looks (and feels) much more controlled.

Something else which is going to take time and practice.




I don't find it annoying at all: I find it quite liberating. For example in the above advice, it's just advice - not a right or wrong way. If you find something works better for you, then well done! (and let me know ). I sometimes do the complete opposite to the above and leg sweep... just got to be careful of neighbouring dancers :whistle:

It's not fudging - it's improvisation :cool:
Yes, - I do agree with you actually, - I like the fact that I can put my own style-stamp on the dance. Also - all the different people & different styles keeps things interesting.

Thanks for taking the time to comment Gadget.

:respect:

Phil_dB
18th-February-2009, 11:20 AM
Posture
Probably the thing that lets MJ down the most from an aesthetic POV (and, yes, the feel of a social dance should always take priority over the look but they are not always mutually exclusive) is the preponderance of hunched over leaders.

Yes! Why is this? I guess this comes down to the fact that there are a greater number of good female followers than male leaders. And, as you touched upon, maybe a lot of people just go for a bit of a dance, and don't think too deeply into it, or try to improve after they've learnt enough to enjoy themselves, - which is fair enough.




Step across
No problem at all. I like this one. I tend to add an ACW turn for the follower having just passed her - this was taught in a Ceroc intermediate class I attended and I just could not get it at all. Suddenly a few months later it was working no problem in freestyle so I think the timing is crucial.

Have I understood you correctly? After turning the follower around CW to face, you straight away lead her into an ACW turn on the spot?




On a standard step across take care that neither partner has taken steps too big if you plan to snap around to face as you may end up painfully hyper-extended.
Yes I know what you mean. I try and lead the follow to turn & face with the movement of my body (as I turn) instead of using the power in my arm to snap down if you know what I mean, and I'm always very cautious/sensitive to how easy I feel the hand is coming down, any resistance and I'll just let go.

robd
18th-February-2009, 11:31 AM
Have I understood you correctly? After turning the follower around CW to face, you straight away lead her into an ACW turn on the spot?

No

It's more a case of at the moment I pass under her arm I will start turning myself ACW to face her and as I do so I will have manouevred my hand-hold within hers to allow myself to turn her CW (I apologise, I realise now that she is turning CW not ACW :blush: ) which means, essentially, she will come to face me in 1.5 turns rather than 0.5 turns (assuming a turn to be a full 360 degree rotation) Much easier, as always in dancing, to show than to describe :nice:

Another nice variant is to initiate this turn having passed underneath the followers arm is to move back towards her and catch her in closed position as she ends the the turns

Both variants require the lead to not travel much further than absolutely necessary to get under the follower's uplifted arm - and in the case of the second to actually start moving pretty rapidly back towards her having turned his own 0.5 turn.

ant
18th-February-2009, 12:02 PM
I've heard it said by many instructions I respect, that before every dance you should think about your posture and consciously rotate your shoulders 'up - back and down'
:yeah:This is done to relax the shoulders and make sure thay are not hunched or raised.

I would also go on to say that you can practise jogging on the spot for 5-10 seconds at a time and this then gets

- your weight balanced onto the balls of your feet
- your core (stomach muscles) pulling in slightly
- no curve in the back
- knees slightly flexed

Then lower the heels. You should be very slightly leaning forward with flexed knees, a feeling of weight on the balls of your feet and toes but some weight distributed along the rest of the foot. Remember that position and try to reproduce the same position when dancing.

As regards the head concentrate on keeping the chin straight. This will have the effect of keeping your head not looking down or up and just about facing directly in front. I find the chin line is the only part of my head that I don't get disorientated with when dancing.

Unless the move requires otherwise try to keep the steps small so your legs remain as far as possible under the hips. This will help you to use your weight to lead rather than your arms, when possible. The longer you step the further the weight is spread.

I continually give myself a mental check as to my posture when dancing. It is the easiest thing to slip and only you can sort it when dancing.


I'd rather be doing a return or maybe a double return, than a arm jive, any old day! As regards returns and travelling returns I don't know a better way of positioning your partner, as applicable, or repositioning your partner when they have not quite quite read your lead properly and you need to reposition her again. As Lory says it also feels like quite a nice move and the follow does not feel like she has misread your lead.

As regards using the other moves you mentioned I think that is all about what you want and how you may want to stylise those moves for yourself.

daveb9000
22nd-March-2009, 09:37 PM
The smoothest way I've found to get into a crossed handhold is to start left to right, offer the right hand then keeping hold with both hands as you raise them over the lady's head turn her 360 degrees counter-clockwise, when she comes back round to face, lower both hands and you should now be in a crossed handhold.

Phil_dB
23rd-March-2009, 04:53 PM
Cheers! As well as the double handed travelling return you describe, i've sinced discovered the secret-swizzle, walkaround-swizzle, sway-variations, or even simply offering a high left hand when in a R to R hand hold, i'm sure there's a billion other ways to get there yet be discovered by me however! :doh: