Bridging the gap from Intermediate to Advanced

[David Bailey]

I thought it'd be useful to have a thread discussing this, complementary to the "Bridging the gap from Beginner to Intermediate (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17575)" thread.

Now, I realise this'll probably hit the permanent roadblock known as "What's An Advanced Dancer" fairly quickly, but I'd like to try to focus on some common errors made by intermediate (2-4 years' experience, say) dancers, and how these can be fixed.

I'll kick off with a couple of obvious ones:

Leaders:
Error name: Move Monster-dom
Symptoms: Knowing 200+ moves, and using most of them in most dances.
Why this is wrong: Dancing isn't about quantity, it's about quality.
How to fix this: Work on musicality and movements.

Followers:
Error name: Grrrl power!
Symptoms: Wanting to show off sabotaging and hijacking skills
Why this is wrong: Unless done very well, it disrupts the flow of the dance
How to fix this: Learn to do it very well, or learn to lead, or don't do it.

Can people suggest some more?

[Gerry]

Leaders
Not giving their follower some play time.

Giving their followers some play time and not being able to play at the same time ( ie standing there like a plank of wood)

[robd]

Why this is wrong: Dancing isn't above quantity, it's about quality.


Above? Assume a typo?

Quantity is irrelevant. If I know 5 moves and execute them poorly that's no better for followers than if I know 500 moves and execute them poorly. So, yes, it is about quality (STBO) but that's not necessarily mutually exclusive with quantity.

It will be interesting to see responses to this thread as I am presuming only those dancers that consider themselves advanced will feel they are suitably qualified to comment on the common errors made by intermediates?

[HelenB]

Lack of floorcraft

Work on adjusting to the available space without hindering movement (through choice of moves)
Be aware of others (especially when moving on/off the dancefloor)
Be courteous (collisions happen but acknowledge them if they do)

EDIT:

It will be interesting to see responses to this thread as I am presuming only those dancers that consider themselves advanced will feel they are suitably qualified to comment on the common errors made by intermediates?

:blush: Erm maybe I'm not...

and here opens the classification of intermediate/advanced debate... :D

[Gav]

Leaders:
Error name: The instructor
Symptoms: Knows lots of hard to lead moves, but doesn't know how to lead them and constantly tells the follower what to do (COLUMBIAN - NOW!).
Why this is wrong: Dancing is a partnership, no-one wants to have orders barked at them.
How to fix this: Ask someone who doesn't need to call the moves how they do it. Practice without calling it and see if you can do it.


I am presuming only those dancers that consider themselves advanced will feel they are suitably qualified to comment

Just shows why you should never assume, doesn't it?

[David Bailey]

Above? Assume a typo?
Oops. :blush:


It will be interesting to see responses to this thread as I am presuming only those dancers that consider themselves advanced will feel they are suitably qualified to comment on the common errors made by intermediates?
Maybe - I don't know if I'm advanced or not, but I can certainly spot common errors that I've personally made. I was a move monster once, for example. I solved it through sheer forgetfulness :grin:

[Gerry]

Above? Assume a typo?

Quantity is irrelevant. If I know 5 moves and execute them poorly that's no better for followers than if I know 500 moves and execute them poorly. So, yes, it is about quality (STBO) but that's not necessarily mutually exclusive with quantity.

It will be interesting to see responses to this thread as I am presuming only those dancers that consider themselves advanced will feel they are suitably qualified to comment on the common errors made by intermediates?

I certainly wouldn't think of myself as an advanced dancer :doh:, I am still on that long road of discovery in dance terms:D

[Andy McGregor]

It will be interesting to see responses to this thread as I am presuming only those dancers that consider themselves advanced will feel they are suitably qualified to comment on the common errors made by intermediates?I think that intermediate dancers who are at the stage of concious incompetence are perfectly well qualified to comment on "common errors made by intermediates". Probably better qualified than advanced dancers.

[DundeeDancer]

I'd like to try to focus on some common errors made by intermediate (2-4 years' experience, say) dancers, and how these can be fixed.

Interesting thread but how about focusing on what the better dancers do to make their dances special?

Things like:-
Because they know the move well they are confident in how to lead it, so can lead it with a light guide rather than forceful jerks.

They know how to quickly position their follower into a dip, lean or pause to hit the dramatic breaks. (How did they learn about getting into these positions so quickly or is it down to thinking 8 to 16 beats ahead?)

Also they know how to play and repeat bit’s inside moves, for example in the First move pushing the girl out from the shoulder then pulling her in again a few times to the beat of the music, when I try this the move falls to pieces :confused: but I see more advance dancers doing this kind of thing all the time and it looks so cool and funky. (how did they jump the gap between trying things out and not working to knowing what works and when to use it?)

[~Jo~]

Do you think having the right person to dance with will make you seem more advanced? for instance...when two people who 'get' each other dance, and they have a similar physique and not too different in height, and even when they're wearing complimentary outfits I always think "wow...they're brilliant". But that same girl/guy with someone not wearing a complimentary outfit, much taller than them and ifferent looks ill think "hmm, he's not as good with them..." ..I know thats stupid but I think the way two dancers appear has an effect on how good people think they are, even if they're skill as just as good as another couple..

[NZ Monkey]

Do you think having the right person to dance with will make you seem more advanced? for instance...when two people who 'get' each other dance, and they have a similar physique and not too different in height, and even when they're wearing complimentary outfits I always think "wow...they're brilliant". But that same girl/guy with someone not wearing a complimentary outfit, much taller than them and ifferent looks ill think "hmm, he's not as good with them..." ..I know thats stupid but I think the way two dancers appear has an effect on how good people think they are, even if they're skill as just as good as another couple..Two scenarios come immediately to mind that might explain this.

1. They're a couple of dancers who practice or even just social dance with each quite a lot. They're very used to each other, they know what their partner is doing and how they're going to react to the music, and they've developed a complimentary style. They probably compensate for each other and cover each others mistakes very well.

2. The person you saw them dance with afterwards wasn't a terribly good leader/follower, and they were struggling trying to cope with the extra randomness.

[Flat_Eric]

Leaders:
Error name:Anything I can do, you must be able to do too
Symptoms: Needing the follower to know the move or the convention of the move from previous experience or knowledge
Why this is wrong: This is dance stooging, not dance leading
How to fix this: Dance with beginners and test your lead on them. If they can do the move with no previous knowledge, you know you are leading it well enough

[Flat_Eric]

Leaders:
Error name: Move Monster-dom
Symptoms: Knowing 200+ moves, and using most of them in most dances.
Why this is wrong: Dancing isn't about quantity, it's about quality.
How to fix this: Work on musicality and movements.


I'd go further than that:
Leaders:
Error name: Move-dom
Symptoms: Thinking about dance in terms of moves
Why this is wrong: If you use the flow, the move comes to you rather than the you choosing the move. The concept fades away towards a new paradigm of proportion and, more generally, anything that sustains or enriches the flow
How to fix this: Dance at different speeds from your usual one (slower or quicker) and observe how the links from one move to the next happen

[Princess Fi]

Leaders:
Error name: The instructor


Can I add to this?


Symptoms: Takes time out in the middle of dancing to tell the follower what they have done wrong, and makes them re-do the same move over and over until they get it right

Why this is wrong: It fails to send the correct message of connection to the follow. As such, the desire to perform one move may result in the follower performing something different (e.g. first move lead resulting in the hand to the face and dance floor exit)

How to fix this: Develop the ability to lead a variety of partners with different following styles, and develop self relfection to discover why the lead to a specific move is not working


I am presuming only those dancers that consider themselves advanced will feel they are suitably qualified to comment

Oops, :blush: feel free to disregard my post :sick:

[Gav]

Can I add to this?

No you can't. :na:

But since you started it, I'll add to...

Why this is wrong: It fails to send the correct message of connection to the follow. As such, the desire to perform one move may result in the follower performing something different (e.g. first move lead resulting in the hand to the face and dance floor exit)
Freestyle is a social dance environment. People go there to have fun dancing, NOT to learn from someone who thinks they know best. Lessons are an acceptable arena for this behaviour, but even there don't expect your "teachings" to be welcome unless you really are "that good" or you've been asked to help.


Oops, :blush: feel free to disregard my post :sick:

You don't get away with it that easily. :respect:

[carollloyd]

as an intermediate lady (2 years) i find it quite helpful when someone takes the time to explain something i missed ( like an obvious signal i've never been taught) and then lets me have another go - or two - to see what it feels like.

i think you can tell when someone's being superior or when they keep having to do it cos they're difficult to follow.
but from someone who's otherwise a good lead/ sensitive dancer , i think it's a nice thing to do

[Dreadful Scathe]

as an intermediate lady (2 years) i find it quite helpful when someone takes the time to explain something i missed ( like an obvious signal i've never been taught) and then lets me have another go - or two - to see what it feels like.

During freestyle? In "the middle of dancing", as Princess Fi suggests? Hopefully you mean you wait till the end or go to the side of the floor. Its annoying for everyone on the floor when a couple simply stop to have an impromptu lesson.




i think you can tell when someone's being superior or when they keep having to do it cos they're difficult to follow.
but from someone who's otherwise a good lead/ sensitive dancer , i think it's a nice thing to do

Perhaps for you, not for others. Your "something I missed", is down to the lead, so for the lead to stop and explain is rather arrogant. During a dance is NEVER the right place to discuss "mistakes" in my opinion. In the past I'd be stopping every 10 seconds - nowadays i realise I'm not perfect (moreover there is no "perfect") and a "mistake" is actually just a "variation" :)

[straycat]

as an intermediate lady (2 years) i find it quite helpful when someone takes the time to explain something i missed ( like an obvious signal i've never been taught) and then lets me have another go - or two - to see what it feels like.

I confess that I have occasionally done this ... but only ever when my partner has directly asked me to. I don't suggest or offer unprompted.

[bigdjiver]

I confess that I have occasionally done this ... but only ever when my partner has directly asked me to. I don't suggest or offer unprompted.I confess that I have often done this :blush: I try to give partner what she wants, and if that is info, that is what I try to give.

[NZ Monkey]

I confess that I have occasionally done this ... but only ever when my partner has directly asked me to. I don't suggest or offer unprompted.I've had quite a few ladies ask me if I can give them pointers while we're freestyling now!:eek:

I try to avoid doing so as much as I can actually, because I'm well aware I'm a pedantic sod and probably have the power to destroy their soft innocent souls....or at least put them off dancing with me (and possibly everyone else) if I gave them the full list. I'd rather not destroy someone's confidence, I'd like to give them the help they want but I don't want to sugar coat anything either.

It's easy enough to say "give them one thing" if they ask for it, but I usually find it very hard to pick one thing above all the others. Besides, I'm not a MJ teacher, I've never even competed let alone won anything, and my own style and tastes are almost unique where I live.

Mostly I just dance a couple more tracks with them and hope they forgot they asked in the first place :whistle:

[geoff332]

There are a couple of things I had to work on to progress my dancing. These things are going to be different for everyone, depending on their background/
Confidence: to realise that I was actually not bad at this. Being a confident dancer is really important to being a good dancer (assuming you're not overconfident).
Musicality: listening and dancing to the music, rather than popping out a series of moves.
Discovering my own style and way of dancing that's how I like to dance, and finding some basic movements that fit with that style.
There are other things that I think are important, but I was already reasonably good at when I started ceroc - things like frame, basic dance technique, good basic rhythm I'd learnt in a previous dancing life. My dancing was always smooth and I was never excessively obsessed with knowing a million moves.

[scotttwin]

The single biggest thing that helped me develop my dancing was having a friend video my dancing with my favourite dance partner. I realised the nicest moves to watch, were actually some of the less interesting to lead.