Cha-cha on the 1

[robd]

Moved from the who's going where thread - David

Wondering what to do this weekend and looked at the iJig promo materials - there is an afternoon workshop with Keith and Bev (very nice follow :grin: ) from Revolution Dance and one of the sessions will be


• Cha Cha on the 1 – Only Jivers can do this! Fun & sexy.

:really:

Only Jivers can do this? Maybe only Jivers would want to do this? :devil:

[Lory]

• Cha Cha on the 1 – Only Jivers can do this!

:really:

Only Jivers can do this? Maybe only Jivers would want to do this? :devil:
I would read that as 'tongue in cheek', it made me chuckle anyway! :D

[David Bailey]

• Cha Cha on the 1 – Only Jivers can do this! Fun & sexy.

:really:

Only Jivers can do this? Maybe only Jivers would want to do this? :devil:

Well, to be fair, whilst it's not "proper" chacha, dancing on 1 is much easier for MJ-ers.

It also says:

Salsa LA Style on the 1
Errr, yes? LA style is always on the 1.

And:

don’t forget they will be teaching you the beautiful Argentine Tango in the fun class at our “Black and White” Ball later on
Oh good. Sounds like fun.

[Brighton Belle]

<B>

• Cha Cha on the 1 – Only Jivers can do this! Fun & sexy.
</B>


I'm sure I should know this already but what does 'on the 1' mean? And why does this make Cha Cha more sexy than usual??:confused:

[David Bailey]

I'm sure I should know this already but what does 'on the 1' mean?
It's the first beat of the chacha bar thingy. Clave or whatever it's called. Basically, it's whether you step on the first beat (1), or the second (2, not surprisingly).

Classic chacha is on the 2 - as is Rumba and some salsa styles.

But "on 2" is more difficult to learn for MJ-ers, so mostly we dance on the 1.


And why does this make Cha Cha more sexy than usual??:confused:
It doesn't.

[DavidY]

But "on 2" is more difficult to learn for MJ-ers, so mostly we dance on the 1.
I did a fair amount of Cha Cha before I started MJ, but if I try to swap mid-dance I also somehow end up Cha-Cha-ing on 1 too, (and getting annoyed with myself because I know I'm on the wrong beat).:blush::tears:

[David Bailey]

I did a fair amount of Cha Cha before I started MJ, but if I try to swap mid-dance I also somehow end up Cha-Cha-ing on 1 too, (and getting annoyed with myself because I know I'm on the wrong beat).:blush::tears:

Me too - I think it's because we naturally step on the down beat in MJ, and that's the "On 1" beat in a chacha. Although my terms could be woefully wrong, as I know damn all about music.

[Martin]

I did a fair amount of Cha Cha before I started MJ, but if I try to swap mid-dance I also somehow end up Cha-Cha-ing on 1 too, (and getting annoyed with myself because I know I'm on the wrong beat).:blush::tears:


Well, having taught cha cha meets Ceroc before (first time was at the first ever Southport weekender) , where we go from a manhatten into a cha cha step, which would mean on the 1. I have been berated by Latin cha cha dancers in the past.

However, the top Latin cha cha dancer locally (who won under 18's several years running, has done clasical training and is now a well respected instructor) went through this with me and explained that there are 2 camps on cha cha, on 1 and on 2... in the same way that you can do Salsa on 1 or on 2.

Some forms of cha cha do indeed do it on 1.

She explained it is more of a snobery, or lack of knowledge thing, if you need to stick to one view on it.

In the same way, locally, Salsa was always done on 1... now they have "on 2" classes. (from the 5 times world champs)

So, yes, on 1 can be done, and yes, if you have learnt only one way, it can be difficult to change it around.

[David Bailey]

Some forms of cha cha do indeed do it on 1.
Mmm.... to be fair, I think it's in a very small minority. Whereas in salsa, the "on 1" camp is definitely in the majority - in the UK at least.

Sure, there's no musical reasons for either choice, it's largely convention - but if you only know chacha on the 1, you're likely to encounter problems trying to dance with most other chacha dancers.

[rubyred]

I was taught cha cha on the 2, the 1 I always thought was the first step to the side then 2,3 cha cha cha after that..same for rumba as I recall. Salsa teachers in UK that I have known start the New York style on the 1 - 1,2,3 then 5,6,7 or 1 quick 2 quick 3/4slow, 5 quick 6 quick 7/8slow. Not sure about cuban, I just follow wherever on that one.

[David Bailey]

I was taught cha cha on the 2, the 1 I always thought was the first step to the side then 2,3 cha cha cha after that..same for rumba as I recall.
Yup - shift weight on 1 and step on 2. For both rumba and salsa.

[Martin]

Mmm.... to be fair, I think it's in a very small minority.

:yeah: However it is out there, which means it is not "wrong", just different.



Whereas in salsa, the "on 1" camp is definitely in the majority - in the UK at least.

True, the reason they started teaching "on 2" locally was that "on 2" is part of some world-wide comps, so to ensure the 'locals' could compete at the higest levels in all catogories, they also teach "on 2".
I learnt Rueda "on 1", they now also teach Rueda "on 2".



Sure, there's no musical reasons for either choice, it's largely convention - but if you only know chacha on the 1, you're likely to encounter problems trying to dance with most other chacha dancers.

True, as most cha cha schools teach on 2. A lot of very experienced MJ and cha cha dancers seem to be able to adapt well to change though.

If I were to dance cha cha for the whole song, then I would naturally dance cha cha on 2, as that is how I was taught.
If you are doing MJ and just dipping into and out of cha cha, as you are dancing on the 1 beat in MJ, I find it more natural to break seamlessly into and out of cha cha on the 1.

After all it is supposed to be just a bit of fun. :D

[robd]

:yeah: However it is out there, which means it is not "wrong", just different.


Well, that's one interpretation but by the same token I could choose to dance it on the '3'. I think that would be wrong but by your definition it would just be different. At some point there is a concensus of opinion which forms an accepted way of doing something.

It seems that Cha Cha on the '1' is the predominant style for MJ dancers dancing or teaching Cha Cha to other MJ dancers - perhaps the issue is with them calling it cha cha rather than just Latin jive or something similarly generic?

[David Bailey]

Well, that's one interpretation but by the same token I could choose to dance it on the '3'. I think that would be wrong but by your definition it would just be different. At some point there is a concensus of opinion which forms an accepted way of doing something.
Yeah, I think the "chacha on 1" community is pretty small.


It seems that Cha Cha on the '1' is the predominant style for MJ dancers dancing or teaching Cha Cha to other MJ dancers - perhaps the issue is with them calling it cha cha rather than just Latin jive or something similarly generic?
Blimey, Latin Jive, haven't heard that for a while - used to hear that all the time, it used to be The Big Thing :D

Actually, I'd still call it chacha, like the Revolution Dance guys, but emphasize that it's on 1.

[Andy McGregor]

Having learnt ballroom and Latin before I attended MJ I've been surprised to see Cha Cha taught on the 1 so often at MJ classes.

Years ago I was told, possibly incorrectly, that the Cha Cha was based on Mambo music. Mambo music tells you it's on the 1 more than the 2. And, in much of the music with "Cha Cha" in the lyrics it sounds like there's an emphasis on the 1.

So, the music is telling you to take your first step on the 1. But the convention is that is the last of the 3 Chas. So we are taught at ballroom to mark that beat with a step, usually to the side.

I'm guessing, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility, that some snooty ballroom dancing in-crowd decided to start on the 2 to make themselves seem special and different. Possibly different from Salsa dancers with their genuine smiles, vests and sweaty, muscular bodies :eek:

I think that calling your class "Cha-cha on the 1" is a great idea. The purists can't complain because it's what you said it was and the rest of us can dance on the obvious beat.

[Daisy Chain]

[QUOTE=Andy McGregor;530383]
I'm guessing, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility, that some snooty ballroom dancing in-crowd decided to start on the 2 to make themselves seem special and different. QUOTE]

Alternatively, some muppet teacher got it wrong and perpetuated his mistake amongst his students.

Daisy

(Definite A One Little FLower)

[robd]

I don't think it's the starting step that's the issue it's which counts you do the 'cha,cha,cha'.

In many (but not all) the Cha Cha for Jivers classes I have seen the chachacha steps have been on the 3&4. In ballroom I have been taught the chachacha steps only on the 4&1 but have had one teacher starting the basic straight on the 2 and one starting with a sidestep on 1 as an entry into the first basic. Either way the chachacha steps are still on 4&1.

[Martin]

Well, that's one interpretation but by the same token I could choose to dance it on the '3'. I think that would be wrong but by your definition it would just be different. At some point there is a concensus of opinion which forms an accepted way of doing something.

ho hum, I thought I covered this in "She explained it is more of a snobery, or lack of knowledge thing, if you need to stick to one view on it."

So is it snobery, or a lack of knowlege?

Here is a clip from wiki, in case it is indeed a lack of knowledge...

"There are three flavors of cha-cha-cha dance, differing by the place of the cha-cha-cha chasse with respect to the musical bar. The original Cuban Cha-cha-cha and the Ballroom Cha-cha-cha count "two-three-chachacha".

Country/western cha-cha-cha and Latin street cha-cha-cha in some places other than Cuba count "one-two-chachacha" or "chachacha-three-four"."





It seems that Cha Cha on the '1' is the predominant style for MJ dancers dancing or teaching Cha Cha to other MJ dancers - perhaps the issue is with them calling it cha cha rather than just Latin jive or something similarly generic?

Not really, it is still cha cha cha.

In the same way you can do a circle to start your MJ, and I can do a push back, we are still dancing MJ.

You could argue that bringing American Country/Western cha cha cha and Street Latin cha cha cha into MJ is not the way to go, but then you would also need to look at WCS, another American product.

:banghead:

[David Bailey]

Having learnt ballroom and Latin before I attended MJ I've been surprised to see Cha Cha taught on the 1 so often at MJ classes.

Years ago I was told, possibly incorrectly, that the Cha Cha was based on Mambo music. Mambo music tells you it's on the 1 more than the 2. And, in much of the music with "Cha Cha" in the lyrics it sounds like there's an emphasis on the 1.
You realise you're opening a massive can of worms here, yes?

<Lethal Weapon IV>In dance-forums, you would already be dead</LW IV>


I'm guessing, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility, that some snooty ballroom dancing in-crowd decided to start on the 2 to make themselves seem special and different.
You're guessing wrongly.


I think that calling your class "Cha-cha on the 1" is a great idea. The purists can't complain because it's what you said it was and the rest of us can dance on the obvious beat.
Yes, I agree.

[Andy McGregor]

You're guessing wrongly.Are you sure? Or are you just guessing?

[David Bailey]

Are you sure? Or are you just guessing?
I'm pretty sure - but I'm not going down this route, that way lies madness.

[Andy McGregor]

I'm pretty sure - but I'm not going down this route, that way lies madness.I'm afraid it's too late for you :whistle:

[Lory]

I don't think it's the starting step that's the issue it's which counts you do the 'cha,cha,cha'.

~snip~ have had one teacher starting the basic straight on the 2 and one starting with a sidestep on 1 as an entry into the first basic. Either way the chachacha steps are still on 4&1.

:yeah: I think a lot of people find it easier, to simply take a step on 1, than to 'hold' on 1 when they're first learning to dance on the 2... Which is why I believe some teachers teach it like that.

Also, another reason, if one starts with their foot pointed to the side, it creates a 'nice line' to start.

My preference re the 1 or 2:, if I was going to dance a whole dance of Cha Cha, then i'd definitely prefer to dance it on the 2

But when just adding a few Cha cha moves into MJ, then 'on the 1' is best. :)

[ant]

Years ago I was told, possibly incorrectly, that the Cha Cha was based on Mambo music. Mambo music tells you it's on the 1 more than the 2. And, in much of the music with "Cha Cha" in the lyrics it sounds like there's an emphasis on the 1.
So, the music is telling you to take your first step on the 1. But the convention is that is the last of the 3 Chas. So we are taught at ballroom to mark that beat with a step, usually to the side.


That makes sense then.

The last step of the 3 cha, cha cha's is the longest step and has a whole beat given to it. If that is the beat with the emphesis it makes sense that the the longest and most prominent step will be danced on it.

[clevedonboy]

Whilst Cha Cha Cha is a "made up" dance based on music that may have been Mambo orientated it is quite clearly a dance which is "on 2". If you don't believe me go and talk to Latin balloom teachers - they conform to the rules of the "made up" dance.

Dancing Cha Cha Cha on 1 is possible but it's not comfortable with "true" Cha Cha Cha music - there's lot's that has a feel 1&2 3&4 ... rather than 1 2 3 4& ...

IMHO if you want to dance Cha Cha Cha, go to Latin Ballroom lessons.

(BTW if you want to count 2 as 1 and get into the inevitable tangle that follows well good luck)

[Martin]

IMHO if you want to dance Cha Cha Cha, go to Latin Ballroom lessons.


So following on from that: If you want to learn Jive, go to Latin Ballroom lessons?

"Ballroom cha cha cha" is only one form of cha cha cha, in the same way that "Ballroom Jive" is only one form of Jive.

Unfortunately snobery in the Ballroom circles is rife, and people start believing Ballroom is the only "correct" way to do things... :doh:

[Andy McGregor]

So following on from that: If you want to learn Jive, go to Latin Ballroom lessons?

"Ballroom cha cha cha" is only one form of cha cha cha, in the same way that "Ballroom Jive" is only one form of Jive.

Unfortunately snobery in the Ballroom circles is rife, and people start believing Ballroom is the only "correct" way to do things... :doh:This brings up a mind-set that bugs me. You get people coming to Modern Jive classes who say they do Modern Jive differently because they are a Lindy Hopper or dance WCS. Putting it simply, they don't do Modern Jive. But they expect their partner, who is doing Modern Jive, to be able to dance with them and somehow fit what you're doing around what they're doing.

When you're at a Modern Jive class and freestyle you should expect your partner to dance Modern Jive as the common denominator. Unless you've agreed otherwise you should both be doing Modern Jive. But you get a certain kind of snobbery that says "I'm doing my own bastard version of Lindy Hop/WCS and Modern Jive, if you were as good a dancer as me you would have guessed and done the dance that I'm doing". This is a certain kind of snobbery too and it bugs me :angry:

Even in the, so-called snobby*, world of ballroom and Latin you both do the same dance. You never get someone saying "I'm a Cha, Cha, Cha dancer, I know this is a quickstep, but I'm doing the Cha, Cha while you do your quickstep". So why, oh why, do people think they can get away with it at a Modern Jive freestyle? (Rant? Moi? :innocent: )

Back on topic, if someone wants to learn a new dance, let's call it "Cha, Cha on the 1" there is no reason why they shouldn't do so. But they shouldn't mix it up with the dance that is taught at their local Ballroom and Latin class. They are two different dances and you would fail your medals if you danced the Cha Cha Cha on the 1.

* I do not believe that all people who ballroom dance are snobs. I believe this is limited to the competition circuit - even then, I'm sure it's not all of them :flower:

[DavidY]

I'm guessing that "on the 2" was for reasons of musicality. As clevedonboy says, it fits the music better.

To break that down a bit, the dance is the "Cha-Cha-Cha", and the 3rd "Cha" is double the length of the other two, so it does make some sense to emphasise it:
Cha-Cha-CHA

So if you dance "on 2", the Cha-Cha-Cha bit is "4&1", with the 3rd "Cha" ending up on beat 1 of the next bar, which is exactly where the majority of musical breaks or emphases tend to be found.

[robd]

I'm guessing that "on the 2" was for reasons of musicality.


I'd thought this too but decided I'd let someone more certain of the reason why to explain it so thanks David.



"Ballroom cha cha cha" is only one form of cha cha cha, in the same way that "Ballroom Jive" is only one form of Jive.

Unfortunately snobery in the Ballroom circles is rife, and people start believing Ballroom is the only "correct" way to do things... :doh:

Ballroom Cha may be only one form (and kudos to you for looking up the others Martin) but it's by far the most common in England and the most well-known to the general public (via exposure on SCD, etc) and thus tends to be the point of reference.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it being done on the 1 esp. in an MJ bastardisation of it. I only started the thread initially because of the promo materials for the class stating that 'only jivers can do this' :rolleyes:

[robd]

This brings up a mind-set that bugs me. You get people coming to Modern Jive classes who say they do Modern Jive differently because they are a Lindy Hopper or dance WCS. Putting it simply, they don't do Modern Jive. But they expect their partner, who is doing Modern Jive, to be able to dance with them and somehow fit what you're doing around what they're doing.

When you're at a Modern Jive class and freestyle you should expect your partner to dance Modern Jive as the common denominator. Unless you've agreed otherwise you should both be doing Modern Jive. But you get a certain kind of snobbery that says "I'm doing my own bastard version of Lindy Hop/WCS and Modern Jive, if you were as good a dancer as me you would have guessed and done the dance that I'm doing". This is a certain kind of snobbery too and it bugs me :angry:


Has this happened to you personally Andy?

My preferred dance now is WCS but I still attend MJ events because they are where my friends may be and/or local and convenient. I always dance MJ as a default if I do not know that my partner dances WCS (assuming the music is more suited IMO to one or other of the styles)

More generally, I wonder how you can state 'you should both be doing Modern Jive' without having a narrow and clear definition of what MJ is and how it differs from other dances :confused: Surely the magpie nature of MJ, pulling in elements (some would say dumbing them down) from other dances, makes such a definition difficult?

Personally I've been to a couple of MJ nights recently and had a pretty unsatisfactory nights. At first I thought it was that I no longer enjoyed MJ as a style but now, having had some great nights at predominantly MJ events, I realise it's much more simple. I enjoy dancing with followers who meet my expectations in terms of following skills (which is a long winded way of saying I like dancing with good dancers) Yes, it's undoubtedly 'my' problem in terms of not being able to adapt to less experienced followers (though many of my least enjoyable dances at the MJ nights I mention were with people who have been doing this at least as long as I have). Good dancers are good dancers, whether they are dancing MJ, WCS, Lindy or whatever.

[Lory]

I only started the thread initially because of the promo materials for the class stating that 'only jivers can do this' :rolleyes:

I thought the wording was brilliant...

...it's cheeky and funny! :D

I don't have a problem with it being taught on the one... because its clearly aimed at Jivers, who want to add a little cha cha 'flavour' into their styling :)

What I wouldn't like is, if someone advertised a serious Cha Cha workshop and then still taught it one the 1. :doh:

[Astro]

The Cha Cha Cha looks complicated to me, but in fact it is a dumbed down version of The Mambo.

Invented for people who found The Mambo too difficult.:eek:

[David Bailey]

I'd thought this too but decided I'd let someone more certain of the reason why to explain it so thanks David.
To be honest, I'm not sure. Dancing on 1 or 2 is just as musical, to my mind. I spent many years dancing salsa on the 1, that seemed to work, and that's the same musical structure... I think it's more convention than any inherent musical requirements.

However, it is a convention, as it is with Rumba, so:

Ballroom Cha may be only one form (and kudos to you for looking up the others Martin) but it's by far the most common in England and the most well-known to the general public (via exposure on SCD, etc) and thus tends to be the point of reference.
Yes, I think it's a stretch to describe chacha on 1 as a valid alternative. Musically, it is, but in terms of the dance scene, it's not, really.

[DavidY]

I'd thought this too but decided I'd let someone more certain of the reason why to explain it so thanks David.I'm not certain at all :blush:- it's just my view of how the music seems to fit together with the dance.

[Martin]

Ballroom Cha may be only one form (and kudos to you for looking up the others Martin) but it's by far the most common in England and the most well-known to the general public (via exposure on SCD, etc) and thus tends to be the point of reference.



What I wouldn't like is, if someone advertised a serious Cha Cha workshop and then still taught it one the 1. :doh:

:yeah: It is the main point of reference, and I think all are agreed, that if you wanted to learn just cha cha cha and dance a whole track to cha cha cha, Ballroom cha cha cha done on the 2 would be the best starting point.



Personally, I don't have a problem with it being done on the 1 esp. in an MJ bastardisation of it.



I don't have a problem with it being taught on the one... because its clearly aimed at Jivers, who want to add a little cha cha 'flavour' into their styling :)


:yeah: Coming from a background of Ballroom/Latin before I learnt MJ and having taught cha cha meets MJ for over 6 years, in 2006 I was going over to NZ to teach a 2 hour workshop on cha cha meets MJ, my demo was to be an experience ballroom dancer from NZ, so I got together with a very experienced local Ballroom and MJ instructor beforehand and went through timings and how to break in and out of cha cha within MJ.
We discussed at length on 2 and on 1.
To keep the flow from MJ and back to MJ, she agreed that on 1 was the practical way (as I had been doing), she then explained to me the other forms of cha cha that use on 1.

Thus at the beginning of the workshop, I explained that I was not trying to teach people "strict ballroom cha cha", the aim was to have some fun with some cha cha steps within MJ (which after all, in it's basic form is a step, step, triple step).

A variety of music with a background cha cha beat was used to demostrate cha cha can be danced to most of the music we MJ to.
Key points being how to break into and out of cha cha and dancing it to the attitude of various music genres.

The fun part being, with a good body lead, you can lead a good MJ follower into cha cha without them ever having done cha cha before.:D

[Moondancer]

...dancing to a cha cha track on anything other than 8&1 2 3 4&5 6 7 8&1 feels :sick: