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Cornish Pixie
25th-January-2009, 06:58 PM
Hi guys, question for all the west coast buffs. What is the rolling "and". I have heard it mentioned several times and have tried to read a number of articles on it but I still dont understand. In my head it is a way of filling the gaps between counting with the word "and" in order to make your dancing more precise.

One of mates descirbed it to me as constant movement.

What is it and how do you apply it to your dancing?

Cheers Nick

Caro
25th-January-2009, 08:17 PM
In my head it is a way of filling the gaps between counting with the word "and" in order to make your dancing more precise.

One of mates descirbed it to me as constant movement.


It's fairly close to my understanding of it as well. It's a way of counting music, i.e. splitting beats in 3 equal parts, that in theory should help you to better define your body movement, i.e. you are not just moving on '1' and '2', you are moving all the way through '1 and a two'.

Skippy Blair and others (like J&T) also use the rolling count to that a triple step is not done exactly in between '3' and '4', but on the 'a', which gives a slightly different - but critical - rhythm to your triple. They link that to critical timing (like starting to move before the 1, but landing on 1).

NZ Monkey
25th-January-2009, 10:51 PM
It's fairly close to my understanding of it as well. It's a way of counting music, i.e. splitting beats in 3 equal parts, that in theory should help you to better define your body movement, i.e. you are not just moving on '1' and '2', you are moving all the way through '1 and a two'.

Skippy Blair and others (like J&T) also use the rolling count to that a triple step is not done exactly in between '3' and '4', but on the 'a', which gives a slightly different - but critical - rhythm to your triple. They link that to critical timing (like starting to move before the 1, but landing on 1).Once again, a big :yeah: to Caro.

As she's already said, there are basically two elements to it. The first is just smoothing out your dancing so that you actually "dance" through movements rather than just thinking about where you need to be on each beat. You don't need rolling count to do this, but it is a relatively easy way to keep yourself paying attention to what you're doing between beats.

The second part is the swung timing of the triple. It's more obvious when the music has the same swing to it, but it adds something to pretty much any smooth and slowish music. Essentially it helps make the dance look really laid back, but without ever really slipping off-time and looking odd because of that.

That said, I'm convinced that despite the emphasis some of these top names put on it, they don't actually use it all the time. Particularly when it comes to more clubby music. I have to confess that I struggle to see any difference between straight and rolling timing once the speed of the music increases to something I'd consider quite fast for WCS as well. Then again...there's a lot I don't know, so that might not mean anything.

Lory
26th-January-2009, 12:23 AM
Once again, a big :yeah: to Caro.

As she's already said, there are basically two elements to it. The first is just smoothing out your dancing so that you actually "dance" through movements rather than just thinking about where you need to be on each beat.
:yeah: I'd go along with that as well.

It's one of the elements that gives the dance its smoothness. :waycool:

mikeyr
26th-January-2009, 09:44 AM
Skippy Blair and others (like J&T) also use the rolling count to that a triple step is not done exactly in between '3' and '4', but on the 'a', which gives a slightly different - but critical - rhythm to your triple. They link that to critical timing (like starting to move before the 1, but landing on 1).

Critical timing isnt that just stating the obvious.....You obviously have start a movement before can complete it: Wow this Rocket science is easy..........

Rolling count. There aint a rolling count in standard Rhythm contemporary music 1,2,3,4 standard timing. There Just Aint! :doh:

Triple would be 1&2

A lot of Swing/Blues Music on the other hand has a swung/shuffle/syncopated Rhythm where certain beats in the bar are highlighted.

Triple would be 1 a2

So if you want to be pedantic, yes there are two rhythms you can use depending on the music(check the notation over the first bar on the sheet music) being played just to be sure.

In reality most of us dont and wont use rolling count.

Why is there the desire to scare people away from the dance by making it seem overly complicated, I mean, c'mon it really isnt, it just has a bit more structure than MJ.

Case in Point: John Lindo, A highly respected teacher and competitor at the highest level in WCS. Go to youtube, watch any video you like with him in it then come back and tell me what footwork I should be doing?

Wanna smooth your triple? Learn to Moon walk(Michael Jackson):rofl:

robd
26th-January-2009, 10:01 AM
Mike, Mario wants to know why you are commenting on triples when you don't do any yourself? :wink: :devil:

Paul F
26th-January-2009, 11:25 AM
Rolling Count is a really useful tool to give dancers visiblity of the space between beats but I agree with MikeyR and think that it should be taught intelligently otherwise it risks scaring people off.

I have seen teachers try and introduce RC too early to people trying to learn WCS. Although all technique is key it needs sound judgement as to when to introduce it and to what extent. I tend to only focus on RC in workshops that I teach. Otherwise, as soon as you walk out of a lesson, its just another keyword that the teacher used. The meaning of which fades shortly after.

As a concept I find it useful. People have a tendancy to try and mark beats out in any dance they do. This is because the solid beats are the only recognisable element. Filling the rest of this void lets us do a number of other actions. Key actions I suggest in my workshops is what i term 'Pre-emptive leading' i.e. using the rolling count to identify when to initiate the lead in order to give the follower time to respond. Rolling Count really helps in this. Another element I use it for is to describe the actions of the foot and how that can move independantly of the stepping action to elicit a smoother look to the dance.

It is a useful concept and one that transcends dance styles. For example in Waltz it is a concept that is used to 'join the dots' in the beats a piece of music so that, as a dancer, you can envisage it carrying you over from one beat to the next. It all helps draw the mental image we need to use while learning. Turning that image into action is the next part :rofl:

The thing with WCS (and I have said this a lot!) is that you can examine it to the N'th degree and formulate concepts to help but all of this just adds layers of complexity and is the principle reason for turning people off WCS in the UK. Teachers should, by all means use these concepts but it must be done in a structured, thought provoking and actionable way so that the person learning can relate what they are being told into what they are being asked to do!

Caro
26th-January-2009, 02:46 PM
Critical timing isnt that just stating the obvious.....You obviously have start a movement before can complete it: Wow this Rocket science is easy..........

Rolling count. There aint a rolling count in standard Rhythm contemporary music 1,2,3,4 standard timing. There Just Aint! :doh:


You're missing the point. Rolling count is a tool you use to split up the time between beats. It is not necessarily how music is written (it turns out that it fits with swing music, though).

So RC is even more useful when dealing with straight music than it is with swing music. It helps smoothing out movement through the beats. If you were to dance like music is written, you'd be popping instead of swinging to straight music. That would give the whole dance a very staccato effect instead of the recognised smooth and fluid feeling of wcs (note that you can use some harder, popping movement for musical interpretation at times).

Brian Doolan
26th-January-2009, 04:49 PM
Rolling Count is a really useful tool to give dancers visiblity of the space between beats but I agree with MikeyR and think that it should be taught intelligently otherwise it risks scaring people off.
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The thing with WCS (and I have said this a lot!) is that you can examine it to the N'th degree and formulate concepts to help but all of this just adds layers of complexity and is the principle reason for turning people off WCS in the UK. Teachers should, by all means use these concepts but it must be done in a structured, thought provoking and actionable way so that the person learning can relate what they are being told into what they are being asked to do!

Iv'e seen both Cerocers and Lerocers come and go from WCS up here in Glasgow and the majority couldn't even handle the concept of 1&2, with followers who couldn't follow a guide dog and leaders who needed one.
A guaranteed means of chasing them further away would be to introduce &a1&a2&a3..... to further complicate the black magic of WCS timing.
The rolling count is neccessary for Caro and her ilk who wish to compete but is definitely NOT for social dancers who simply wish to enjoy their dancing.
Please don't think I'm having a go at you Caro or being derogatory, I just feel that too much complexity in ANY dance form will chase people away.

I believe all WCS teachers in the Glasgow area are struggling as it is, to attract the numbers required to make their WCS classes financially viable.

Paul F
26th-January-2009, 05:02 PM
A guaranteed means of chasing them further away would be to introduce &a1&a2&a3..... to further complicate the black magic of WCS timing.

It really is a delicate balancing act. On the one hand any teacher worth their salt wants the style to grow and grow and should be keeping their lessons pitched to the many and not the few. On the other hand the concepts that can be taught are really useful and, with practice, can make such a big difference to a persons dancing. Of course these same concepts, as mentioned can bewilder some.

IMO the key is to use these concept ideas as seeds which can be used to plant the idea into someones head. I will mention a particular area in my intermediate class, with a brief example, and let those that are interested follow up one-one-one after the class.
I am also careful to let people know that what I will be talking about in the next X number of minutes is over and above what is needed at that time. I've found that this gives people a definate fixed point after which they can listen to and absorb or simply gloss over. From feedback I have got, people tend to like this way of doing things.
I was told once that by telling people they need to know what you are about to say causes some bio-chemical-fancy-brain thing to happen that commits the information to memory better. Sounds weird but it seems to work.
Of course, it opens up a plethora of follow up questions after the class. :nice:

On the other hand you have teachers that are over-enthusiastic and rabbit on for an hour having gone completely off on a tangent :rofl: Bye bye customers!

Dottie
26th-January-2009, 05:36 PM
The rolling count is neccessary for Caro and her ilk who wish to compete but is definitely NOT for social dancers who simply wish to enjoy their dancing.



:eyebrow:

As a social WCS dancer I want to be the best I personally can be.

So, whatever it takes and whatever I can cope with.......

robd
26th-January-2009, 06:45 PM
Brian, people that compete can also enjoy social dancing. They are not mutually exclusive pursuits.

WCS teachers are in a tricky position in the UK right now, having to cater for an increasingly wide range of experience levels in some classes as well as the people who see X,Y and Z on You Tube or whatever and wanting to emulate it. In some areas this is addressed by splitting classes into levels - beginners, intermediates, etc but in others this may not be viable. Teachers that I admire usually adopt (and make clear that they are adopting) a multi layered approach. They will point out to students that they may not understand material now but that others in the class will and that, in time, so too will they. I really want WCS to be accessible but not at the expense of the things that define the dance.

For rolling count, specifically, there is a DVD by Jordan and Tatiana that covers it in some detail and I understand what they are talking about but I still don't recognise it in practice. As others have said it is useful for thinking about moving through the beat rather than on it (and there is good video illustration of this on that J&T DVD) but that's not necessarily specific to WCS, it's just good dancing.

Caro
26th-January-2009, 08:51 PM
In reality most of us dont and wont use rolling count.

Why is there the desire to scare people away from the dance by making it seem overly complicated, I mean, c'mon it really isnt, it just has a bit more structure than MJ.




Iv'e seen both Cerocers and Lerocers come and go from WCS up here in Glasgow and the majority couldn't even handle the concept of 1&2, with followers who couldn't follow a guide dog and leaders who needed one.
A guaranteed means of chasing them further away would be to introduce &a1&a2&a3..... to further complicate the black magic of WCS timing.
The rolling count is neccessary for Caro and her ilk who wish to compete but is definitely NOT for social dancers who simply wish to enjoy their dancing.


Why is it that everytime someone asks a technical question, the debate always come back to 'why are you trying to make wcs so complicated' and from then whether UK teachers should teach such complicated material to poor ol' cerocers who can't "even handle the concept 1&2" ???

A question was asked and an answer given. If it's not your cup of tea, why don't you just go and post on threads in which you have an interest ? Why spoil the thirst and enjoyment some may have in learning a bit more about technique ?

Not to mention that it is fundamentally derogatory for a lot of people with MJ background: it's not because they have not been exposed to more complex/technical forms of dancing that they cannot understand, or even, do it. How much of this 'wcs is too complicated for me' non sense do you think is due to the punter vs the quality teaching that is given to them ?

As for social dancers wcs competitors, this is just some more non-sense. Do you think that by trying to understand technique behind the dance, you will increase your ability to compete to the detriment of the quality of your social dancing ? Do you not think that by trying to understand connection and movement you will simply develop as a better dancer ? Besides, most of the focus in competition in wcs is on JnJ, i.e. social dancing. Show that you can adapt and dance well with any partner.
And it won't even go into the area of those who manage to look good and do well in comps but have poor technique and feel nowhere as good as they look... :naughty:

I believe RC might help you to feel better, both for followers (stretching on 'and 'a', moving smoothly through the slot, pulsing) and leaders (leading at the right time, quality of movement, pulsing). This doesn't mean that you need to understand RC to do those things. As in every matter of life, there those that 'just do it' and those that need to understand the mechanics of what they are doing.


Brian, people that compete can also enjoy social dancing. They are not mutually exclusive pursuits.

WCS teachers are in a tricky position in the UK right now, having to cater for an increasingly wide range of experience levels in some classes...(snip)...They will point out to students that they may not understand material now but that others in the class will and that, in time, so too will they. I really want WCS to be accessible but not at the expense of the things that define the dance.


:yeah:

Brian Doolan
26th-January-2009, 09:00 PM
For rolling count, specifically, there is a DVD by Jordan and Tatiana that covers it in some detail and I understand what they are talking about but I still don't recognise it in practice. As others have said it is useful for thinking about moving through the beat rather than on it (and there is good video illustration of this on that J&T DVD) but that's not necessarily specific to WCS, it's just good dancing.

I have all J&T's DVDs including Rolling Count and "A" More but not their 2 new ones, Musicology 2 and Patterns & Styling Vol.6. You seem to agree with me when you say you don't recognise the rolling count in practise. I understand exactly what J&T are saying about the count but I feel one needs to be well into the series before using it in their social dancing, rather like Jordan's duck walks (FBI), which I have to say have brought tears of laughter when looking at dancers trying to emulate him, many from Jacqui (my lovely wife) laughing at me.

Brian Doolan
26th-January-2009, 09:22 PM
A question was asked and an answer given. If it's not your cup of tea, why don't you just go and post on threads in which you have an interest ? Why spoil the thirst and enjoyment some may have in learning a bit more about technique ?



Hm, sounds like someone has her knickers in a twist or takes her WCS way too seriously for a simple socialiser such as me.

Oh and by the way Caro, in case you haven't noticed, this is a Ceroc forum and as I dance Ceroc and WCS, I'll go anywhere I like on the forum, whether YOU like it or not.

mikeyr
26th-January-2009, 10:16 PM
You're missing the point. Rolling count is a tool you use to split up the time between beats. It is not necessarily how music is written (it turns out that it fits with swing music, though).

So RC is even more useful when dealing with straight music than it is with swing music. It helps smoothing out movement through the beats. If you were to dance like music is written, you'd be popping instead of swinging to straight music. That would give the whole dance a very staccato effect instead of the recognised smooth and fluid feeling of wcs (note that you can use some harder, popping movement for musical interpretation at times).


This all sounds like dogma to me! It really is just walk walk triple triple the rest is fluff!

Like you I aint doing too bad on the comp scene over there. I aint never used RC in my footwork, I did learn to moonwalk though, much better for rolling through the foot and a pretty cool trick.

Btw Straight music is exactly that, it doesnt swing, no seriosly it just dont! So some music really calls for Staccato footwork and some for legato or are you advocating RC as a panacea...... I'm just saying?

Caro
27th-January-2009, 01:17 AM
This all sounds like dogma to me! It really is just walk walk triple triple the rest is fluff!


if that's what works for you, then great ! Why can't you accept that some people work differently and need to analyse the stuff they do ?


Btw Straight music is exactly that, it doesnt swing, no seriosly it just dont! So some music really calls for Staccato footwork and some for legato or are you advocating RC as a panacea...... I'm just saying?

If you dance a whole song very staccato, well, it will look just that... IMO it looks better if you are able to emphasis the staccato nature of the track at times, while still being able to move smoothly most of the time. I think it gives contrast, shows musical interpretation, looks and feels better. Matter of taste !


Hm, sounds like someone takes her WCS way too seriously for a simple socialiser such as me.


You bet I take it seriously ! I spend a material amount of money travelling to the US to dance and get the best tuition I can. Makes me happy. What's wrong with that ?

Hold on, may be it makes me an asocial dancer ? :rofl:


Oh and by the way Caro, in case you haven't noticed, I dance

can't say I had noticed, no. :devil: ;)


this is a Ceroc forum and I'll go anywhere I like on the forum, whether YOU like it or not.

Please do ! But why can't you let the wcs geeks of this forum have a nice geeky discussion about how many times we want to split a beat ? Do you go on geeky threads to tell people that "really all that binary html sql processor ram stuff is rubbish, this is just 'a simple computer', which ought to be enough for simple social forumites" ?
:doh:

Geordieed
27th-January-2009, 11:04 AM
Searching through my memory banks I remembered this clip shows the movement of the body.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gvhRj4F501k

straycat
27th-January-2009, 11:44 AM
Btw Straight music is exactly that, it doesnt swing, no seriosly it just dont! So some music really calls for Staccato footwork and some for legato or are you advocating RC as a panacea...... I'm just saying?

I think it's advocated as a panacea - if you look at the Rolling Count video snippet near the bottom of Skippy's blog (http://www.skippyblair.blogspot.com/), she says the following:


It sets up a musical background, and you have to carry it with you. And for those of you who get in Jack & Jills ... sometime you're going to get that piece of music where you're gonna need that rolling count in your head, because it sure isn't coming from the music. You get what I call handicap music. You have to drown it out with a rolling count.

Got to say - I'm with you on this one. Dance to what's there, not what isn't - I mean - from the way she talks, you can almost imagine them ditching the music altogether and just playing Skippy's voice going '&a1&a2&a3&a4' continuously for three minutes... :whistle:

robd
27th-January-2009, 12:56 PM
Searching through my memory banks I remembered this clip shows the movement of the body.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gvhRj4F501k

Jennifer DeLuca is AWESOME :respect: and I really hope someone brings her and Michael over to the UK again this year.

David Franklin
27th-January-2009, 01:20 PM
you can almost imagine them ditching the music altogether and just playing Skippy's voice going '&a1&a2&a3&a4' continuously for three minutes... :whistle:Isn't that called rap?

straycat
27th-January-2009, 01:58 PM
Isn't that called rap?

I think you're right. Maybe some enterprising musician should officially record 'The Rolling Count Rap' - for all your WCS requirements. :D

Caro
27th-January-2009, 05:53 PM
Jennifer DeLuca is AWESOME :respect: and I really hope someone brings her and Michael over to the UK again this year.

turns out they will be in France this year, in fact you will see them at Sea Sun and Swing :clap:

I think Michael also mentioned a couple of other events in France, don't have much more info as yet I'm afraid...

NZ Monkey
27th-January-2009, 06:29 PM
Got to say - I'm with you on this one. Dance to what's there, not what isn't - I mean - from the way she talks, you can almost imagine them ditching the music altogether and just playing Skippy's voice going '&a1&a2&a3&a4' continuously for three minutes... :whistle:More likely they'll hear the start of her ramble, but the song will be over before she's managed to get around to saying &a1&a2.

On the plus side, their life will be more fulfilling, they will be happier AND have found religion!

I know she know's her stuff, but am I the only person who wishes she'd just get to a point and leave all the waffle at the door?

Brian Doolan
27th-January-2009, 07:28 PM
...snip...

My original text read:

Hm, sounds like someone has her knickers in a twist or takes her WCS way too seriously for a simple socialiser such as me.

Oh and by the way Caro, in case you haven't noticed, this is a Ceroc forum and as I dance Ceroc and WCS, I'll go anywhere I like on the forum, whether YOU like it or not.

The way you've edited it to suit your own ends makes me think you're in the wrong job.
You should be a politician and not an imagined authority in WCS.

Asocial, did you really mean that?

adj.
1. Not social: "Bears are asocial, secretive animals"
2. Avoiding or averse to the society of others; not sociable:
3. Unable or unwilling to conform to normal standards of social behavior; antisocial:
4. Inconsiderate of others; self-centered.


You don't appear to have a sense of humour Caro, so trying to be funny just makes you look very silly.

robd
27th-January-2009, 07:33 PM
Hmm, no matter how annoyed you are by Caro's post, basing your response around the misuse of a single word by a non-native speaker is a bit desperate Brian. Her English is a lot better than my French that's for sure.

Caro
27th-January-2009, 07:48 PM
...takes her WCS way too seriously for a simple socialiser such as me.





Hold on, may be it makes me an asocial dancer ? :rofl:




Asocial, did you really mean that?

adj.
1. Not social


Need I really explain more ? I was making a (very unsuccessful it seems given your apparent difficulties to grasp the meaning of asocial) pun on the fact that you were calling yourself a 'socialiser', while, in opposition, being all in the wrong splitting beats and all that, I would be an 'asocial dancer'. :rolleyes:
I've allowed myself to highlight the relevant bits in the quotes above with bold font, for the sake of clarity - hope that helps :flower:


The way you've edited it to suit your own ends makes me think you're in the wrong job.


It was a cheeky joke. As emphasised by the use of ";)", I'm sorry that didn't get through to you either.


You don't appear to have a sense of humour Caro, so trying to be funny just makes you look very silly.

:WetHaddock:

NZ Monkey
27th-January-2009, 08:22 PM
Hmm, no matter how annoyed you are by Caro's post, basing your response around the misuse of a single word by a non-native speaker is a bit desperate Brian. Her English is a lot better than my French that's for sure.Especially considering her English is a lot better than, dare I say, most native English speakers as well.

I mean - she actually understands puns, which seems to be beyond some of us. :wink:

Brian Doolan
27th-January-2009, 08:42 PM
Need I really explain more ? I was making a (very unsuccessful it seems given your apparent difficulties to grasp the meaning of asocial) pun on the fact that you were calling yourself a 'socialiser', while, in opposition, being all in the wrong splitting beats and all that, I would be an 'asocial dancer'. :rolleyes:
I've allowed myself to highlight the relevant bits in the quotes above with bold font, for the sake of clarity - hope that helps :flower:



It was a cheeky joke. As emphasised by the use of ";)", I'm sorry that didn't get through to you either.



:WetHaddock:

From silly to laughable.



Hmm, no matter how annoyed you are by Caro's post, basing your response around the misuse of a single word by a non-native speaker is a bit desperate Brian. Her English is a lot better than my French that's for sure.

Sorry, I don't know the lassie and as my French only goes as far as "Fermez votre la bouche" I'll add to your language assessment and say her English is probably better than MY English never mind my French.

Caro
28th-January-2009, 12:39 AM
From silly to laughable.


[attempted pun warning]

I'm glad you're starting to see the... laugh.

[/attempted pun warning]

Geordieed
28th-January-2009, 10:59 AM
Jennifer DeLuca is AWESOME :respect: and I really hope someone brings her and Michael over to the UK again this year.



Yeah they will be back over here in August...