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jim
25th-January-2009, 04:36 PM
What is the correct response to Sabotage?

A) Give more space.

B) Carry on leading as before.

C) Give less space

D) Depends on the situation.



A) Assume that the follower is sending you a ‘message’ of dissatisfaction with your lead. Either that your moves are boring and repetitive or your style is too controlling, or your use of breaks and musicality is lacking.

The solution is to try to change your lead to accommodate them and essentially give them more space to express themselves.

The problem is that some women then accuse me of not leading properly.



B) Assume that the follower is happy with your lead, and assumes that you’ll enjoy being sabotaged.

The solution is not to change anything and carry on leading as before.

The problem is that I feel like an action on her part requires a reaction on mine.

I tried ignoring a Sabotage recently and got Sabotaged a second time straight away just to make sure I got the message. I got the message; she wanted a response. I’m just not sure what that response should have been.



C) Assume that the follower knows that’s she’s being cheeky and therefore expects a reaction.

The solution is to grab her and put her back in her hold, from where she might try and escape again and so-on and so-forth.

The problem is that men use close moves to control troublesome women and women use Sabotage to escape from controlling men. So this could be a fun game of Cat and Mouse or this could be two people about to get in a fist fight. Or one who thinks it’s a fun game and one who thinks their partner is a moron.



D) You could say that different followers use Sabotage for different leads, at different times, for different reasons.

The solution is to become a mind-reading dance God.

The problem; is that this is not going to happen. Only the best leads are going to be able to deal with all the different permutations of Sabotage. This is therefore a totally impractical answer for the vast majority of leads.


So to sum it up, as you can tell; I’m pretty confused.

What is the correct / generic response to Sabotage?

I don't just want to hear from the leads either. I want to know what the followers expect a lead to do after they've been Sabotaged.

I also thought the above might make a nice poll, if any Mod’s are interested.

Feelingpink
25th-January-2009, 05:14 PM
I have sabotaged in the past. Generally, it's when I want to play and usually not with a beginner lead because it can freak them out. Very, occasionally, it's when I think the leader is behaving like Hitler, I'm bored with three gazillion pretzel turny things, I may as well be a lampost for all the human interraction ... then my sabotaging is the dance version of throwing my toys out of the pram. How you tell that as a leader is to perhaps think back over how much of a connection there seems to be between you and your partner - if it's good - and your lead is more like an invitation, then sabotage is just me asking for playtime.

The solution, IMV, is that early on with a new partner you find out if they like playing, so allow them a little room to play in a move or two and see if you get playfulness or a glare. If you adapt your lead accordingly, this eliminates you having to guess whether sabotage is come from a good, musical place or is just revenge.

ant
25th-January-2009, 05:39 PM
B) Assume that the follower is happy with your lead, and assumes that you’ll enjoy being sabotaged.


I take it as a compliment when I get sabotaged. I feel that the follower is comfortable with me as a leader and there is something in the music or the way she has been led that gives her some inspiration.

I try to stay aware for when these times happen and let the follower do her thing. I adjust my thinking to try and get into her rhythym and understand what she is trying to do and then lead as and when to compliment that.

I find it another challenge to deal with this type of situation, so we both feel comfortable and enjoy the experience.

My only real issue with sabotage and the few times I have have not liked it is when I have actively been leading a move. I don't think that enough is said about the right time to do this type of thing and about the concept of when the lead "is actively leading a move" and not sabotaging then as this can occassionally be dangereous.

Maxine
25th-January-2009, 06:03 PM
I don’t think there is a correct response to sabotage because by sabotaging as I have been guilty of doing in occasions (ok a lot of occasions:blush:) you’re moving away from the dance rules. So my advice is go with it, respond in a way that feels comfortable, hopefully enjoy it.

If when I’m trying to do a little bit of sabotage and I can feel the leader fighting against it then I would just revert to the correct response.

I hope you do get enjoyment out of the experience though because that’s the whole point of playing:grin:

Lory
25th-January-2009, 06:23 PM
The solution is to become a mind-reading dance God.

:yeah::wink:

No seriously, I think there has to be an element of mind reading involved, as there are 'so' many reasons why girls sabotage.

Like FeelingPink and Maxine, I myself have been known to do it on occasion.

The first reason I'd implement it, is if I was about to be injured ( a badly lead move/drop or I could see that it was too crowded etc)

Secondly.. yes, sometimes I do get bored :blush: and I hear things in the music that I want to emphasis, like a break or certain words in the lyrics

Thirdly, its because I know the guy is a great dancer, who treats the dance as a conversation and I'm just having 'my' say :waycool:

So no, I don't think there's any correct / generic response to Sabotage, just take it as it comes ;)

martingold
25th-January-2009, 06:30 PM
I take it as a compliment when I get sabotaged. I feel that the follower is

,,,,,,,,snip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

f when the lead "is actively leading a move" and not sabotaging then as this can occassionally be dangereous.


I don’t think there is a correct response to sabotage because by

,,,,,,,snip,,,,,,,,,,,,

I hope you do get enjoyment out of the experience though because that’s the whole point of playing:grin:

:yeah:

i completely agree with both these two posts

when i am dancing i always feel to see what the follow wants to do whats
i also make sure i give my partner some space to interpret the dance as well most will love it one or two give you the :what: what do i do now look
when i will just drop straight back into leading moves because thats their comfort zone

the point in partner dancing if only one partner is choosing all the moves and the other partner is just following
thats not dancing its going through a series of pre learned moves

no matter what they tell you about it when you are learning how many women do you know who will really do as their told :whistle:

Brighton Belle
25th-January-2009, 06:33 PM
I have sabotaged in the past. Generally, it's when I want to play and usually not with a beginner lead because it can freak them out. Very, occasionally, it's when I think the leader is behaving like Hitler, I'm bored with three gazillion pretzel turny things, I may as well be a lampost for all the human interraction ... then my sabotaging is the dance version of throwing my toys out of the pram. How you tell that as a leader is to perhaps think back over how much of a connection there seems to be between you and your partner - if it's good - and your lead is more like an invitation, then sabotage is just me asking for playtime.

The solution, IMV, is that early on with a new partner you find out if they like playing, so allow them a little room to play in a move or two and see if you get playfulness or a glare. If you adapt your lead accordingly, this eliminates you having to guess whether sabotage is come from a good, musical place or is just revenge.


:yeah:

I know the guy is leading, but its still a partner dance and a lot of followers (myself included) like to think of it as a 'partnership' and have a bit of imput occasionally. In AT it is usual for the follower to add embellishments and its quite acceptable.

If they guy's OK with it, I would hope he would give me a little scope to play but if he's obviously really uncomfortable then I wouldn't do it again. In fact on several occasions, I have been 'told off' in no uncertain terms.

On the other hand, I have spoken to followers who are non-plussed when the lead efffectively stops and gives the them carte blanche to do anything they like. For an inexperienced follower, this can be equally daunting! 'Help - what do I do now?'

I would agree with Feelingpink - if your follower is an experienced dancer there's a good chance she would like to have a play so give her a bit of leeway and see what happens. If a follower does sabotage, generally I think they're asking for more interaction IMO.

Brighton Belle
25th-January-2009, 06:37 PM
no matter what they tell you about it when you are learning how many women do you know who will really do as their told :whistle:


:yeah:

Exactly!! Couldn't have put it better myself :rofl:

philsmove
25th-January-2009, 06:41 PM
A sabotage move can be both compliment and a criticism. The message I got from last night from Happy B was "I am getting bored, you can do better than this”

Agente Secreto
25th-January-2009, 06:44 PM
Jim

I'm in the 'A' camp myself - I love it when the follow does something to show her own interpretation and I always give more space, while of course looking for the opportunity to be more playful myself in return:devil:.

I think that that you've got the explanations wrong though. I rarely interpret sabotage as dissatisfaction, in fact quite the reverse. Since any dance is a form of conversation as Lory says it is entirely right that the follow will have their own 'point of view' and will wish to stamp their own interpretation on the dance. Personally, I take it as a vote of satisfaction and confidence in my lead if follows feel like playing when we're on the floor together so in taking 'A' I'm not beating myself up that I'm inadequate or boring.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

martingold
25th-January-2009, 06:48 PM
:yeah:

Exactly!! Couldn't have put it better myself :rofl:
glad you agree brightone belle you women lead us guys a dogs life :tears:
oh and i forgot to say its also nice to stand stil and watch your partner do some work :waycool:

ant
25th-January-2009, 07:08 PM
no matter what they tell you about it when you are learning how many women do you know who will really do as their told :whistle:

Us guys just think we are leading, its a right con job. We just get all the responsability and do what we have to do as set by the woman we are dancing with. :wink:

Minnie M
25th-January-2009, 08:32 PM
What is the correct response to Sabotage? ........

What is Sabotage ?



Backleading (i.e not following the lead's move)
Using the breaks for self expression
Playing with the moves (slowing the move down with wiggles etc)


IMO number one is a defo NO NO, but I have been known to do 1) & 2) but only with the lead's approval - however ALL has to done within the structure of the music

martingold
25th-January-2009, 09:46 PM
Us guys just think we are leading, its a right con job. We just get all the responsability and do what we have to do as set by the woman we are dancing with. :wink:

yeah that i vote for a revolution :grin:


What is Sabotage ?



Backleading (i.e not following the lead's move)
Using the breaks for self expression
Playing with the moves (slowing the move down with wiggles etc)

IMO number one is a defo NO NO, but I have been known to do 1) & 2) but only with the lead's approval - however ALL has to done within the structure of the music
as if we have the choice lol

straycat
26th-January-2009, 12:13 AM
Option D. You don't need to be a mind-reading dance god. Just learn the right tricks of the trade, and practice :D

Lory
26th-January-2009, 12:25 AM
Option D. You don't need to be a mind-reading dance god.
You have to agree, it helps though! :wink:

jivecat
26th-January-2009, 12:36 AM
I don't just want to hear from the leads either. I want to know what the followers expect a lead to do after they've been Sabotaged.



Agree with what the other followers have said above about the reasons for sabotaging. I don't see it as a particularly strong skill on my part, took me ages to work out how and when to do it. However I mainly do it because the music is irresistible and my partner is not responding to it. I don't think I'd ever do it because I thought the leader wasn't paying attention to me!

I've never thought about what I expect the lead to do :blush:- I guess I expect them to pause, while I do whatever it is I'm planning to do, then resume leading without missing a beat at the right moment. If they can't do that, then I think it's my fault for having inappropriately chosen to sabotage, or messed it up, therefore inconveniencing the leader.

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 01:10 AM
What is the correct / generic response to Sabotage?
Finish the dance with your partner, and simply don't dance with her again.

Although I suspect you mean "hijack" rather than "sabotage" from the description.

I've been hijacked. Once last year - first time for several years, come to think of it...

StokeBloke
26th-January-2009, 01:30 AM
The correct response... not sure. My response is to encourage more. Big grin, lead some more space, listen to what the follow is doing, try to play with the lead they are creating and bounce your ideas and movements to the music off of each other.

Like I said, I'm not sure if that's the correct response, but it's my response :wink: When I lead something, it's an invitation for my partner to follow. It's a free country, they don't have to accept the invitation if they feel that there's something different or better that we could be doing.

As for not dancing with them again.... quite the reverse. I seek out these playful follows. But then again I have always loved people with a creative flare and the guts to show it off :worthy:

Steven666
26th-January-2009, 02:05 AM
Sabotage the sabotage with a sabotage.

Minnie M
26th-January-2009, 08:09 AM
......as if we have the choice lol
(I was talking personally)
Still haven't had a dance yet Martin :wink:

robd
26th-January-2009, 10:07 AM
What is the correct response to Sabotage?

E) Kick them up the arse and tell them to behave









I also thought the above might make a nice poll, if any Mod’s are interested.

You can create a poll yourself when posting, Jim.

Gav
26th-January-2009, 10:13 AM
E) Kick them up the arse and tell them to behave

F) Let go and stomp your way off the dance floor, muttering all the way. :D

martingold
26th-January-2009, 11:15 AM
E) Kick them up the arse and tell them to behave

do a ballroom drop to the floor let go and leave em lying on the floor
normally gets a giggle if nothing else

martingold
26th-January-2009, 11:17 AM
Still haven't had a dance yet Martin :wink:
well you will live so damn far away :flower:

ant
26th-January-2009, 11:20 AM
well you will live so damn far away :flower:

Hove ACTUALLY

straycat
26th-January-2009, 11:30 AM
You have to agree, it helps though! :wink:

I'm sure I wouldn't know... :D

To expand on my slightly unhelpful post though -
For me, it comes back to the whole 'leading by following' philosophy. I try to keep a constant feeling of connection with my partner, so whatever I lead, I can feel how she's responding every step of the way. If at any stage she's not doing what I had intended, I can just adapt what I'm doing to fit - as usually, these differences are telegraphed quite a way in advance, especially with well-executed sabotages or hijacks.

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 11:36 AM
If a dance partner sabotage's you.......


Hit them on the head with a blunt excrement until they stop.......Outrageous behaviour. Behave yourselves, Girly trouts.


DTS XXX XXX

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 12:05 PM
The correct response... not sure. My response is to encourage more. Big grin, lead some more space, listen to what the follow is doing, try to play with the lead they are creating and bounce your ideas and movements to the music off of each other.
That's not sabotaging, that's interpretation / "playing".


As for not dancing with them again.... quite the reverse. I seek out these playful follows. But then again I have always loved people with a creative flare and the guts to show it off :worthy:
Blimey, are we going to get into another round of the "hijacking is Girl Power" debate?

OK, let's get our definitions clear - there are several different terms being used interchangeably, which is wrong.

"Sabotage", "hijacking", "playing" and "interpretation" are all different behaviour - please don't lump them all together, and be clear about which specific behaviour you're talking about.

And if you're not clear about the difference, then I suggest you learn the difference before joining in the discussion.

(If you want some pointers, then do some research - for example, the thread "What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15856)")

Personally, I'd go along with this:


- Sabotage is when the follower deliberately stops following.
- Hijacking is when the follower starts leading for a short period of time

I'd also separately define:
- Lead swapping as switching the roles throughout the dance.
- Self Preservation is when the follower stops following for safety reasons. This is always allowed.

In the context of dancing with someone you don't know
Sabotage and hijacking both mean the same thing to me - the follower has decided to do something different to what I led. As a leader, I don't usually like that. As I've said before, do it too often and my reaction goes from :wink: to :what: to :sad: to :angry:

If however a follower embellishes what I have led, then I'm all for it. If I don't give a complete lead (direction, rotation, connection, momentum & timing), then the follower is welcome to do what she likes with the bits I've left out. Or at the extreme if I haven't led anything, then the follower can do anything she wants. All this is still 'lead and follow'.

Sabotage is not lead and follow. Hijacking is 'follow and lead', and may not be what your partner wants.

If you still want to sabotage or hijack with someone you don't know, then my advice would be:
- Don't sabotage coming up to an interesting bit in the music. The Leader is (hopefully) thinking ahead, and may be setting up for something. Any sort of sabotage would throw him off. (Similarly leaders shouldn't expect ladies to do some stunning improvisation in the boring bits of a track. Respect the fact that it is a partnership.)
- If you are going to hijack, then make sure the man knows how to follow, or you know how to lead.
- Watch and remember the reaction when you do it.

marcusj
26th-January-2009, 01:38 PM
What is the correct response to Sabotage?

A) Give more space.

B) Carry on leading as before.

C) Give less space

D) Depends on the situation.
F - feel your way
U - usurp when you fancy
C - cherish the moments
K - keep the surprises coming
O - offer the time and space
F - fine with me
F - felicity
I - invite playfulness
M - makes a change from "women - know your limits"
L - laugh together
E - enjoy the experience
A - acknowledge their efforts
D - delve deep into the music
I - improvise
N - never say never
G - great for development

Only teasing, I love a well timed bit of sabotage, one woman sabotages a manspin walkaround thing, just as I am about to release out into the next bit she pushes on my shoulder and pulls at my hips and has me spinning off lick a spinning top, great fun,


I don’t think there is a correct response to sabotage because by sabotaging as I have been guilty of doing in occasions (ok a lot of occasions:blush:) you’re moving away from the dance rules. So my advice is go with it, respond in a way that feels comfortable, hopefully enjoy it.
Loving the drops Maxine !!



No seriously, I think there has to be an element of mind reading involved, as there are 'so' many reasons why girls sabotage.

Secondly.. yes, sometimes I do get bored :blush: ...

Thirdly, its because I know the guy is a great dancer, who treats the dance as a conversation and I'm just having 'my' say :waycool:



Lory please let it not be reason 2 !

StokeBloke
26th-January-2009, 02:19 PM
OK, let's get our definitions clear - there are several different terms being used interchangeably, which is wrong.

"Sabotage", "hijacking", "playing" and "interpretation" are all different behaviour - please don't lump them all together, and be clear about which specific behaviour you're talking about.

Thank you for the advice David. However, I have no need to re-educate myself concerning definitions. You see, I do lump them all together. From my perspective there really is no need for all the linguistic gymnastics or semantic fantastics. It is not about N-Power, shower power, flower power or girl power. It all comes under one heading. Joining in. Simple.

I would much prefer to dance with someone than at them. If they wish to join in then why should I try to stop them? I do not hold with the misogynistic chest beating caveman ethos of 'man lead, woman be grateful'. The way I see it, if a lead is freaking out because a follow is joining in, that says more about the lead than it does about the follow.

However, we are all of us different. One man's meat is another man's poison and all that. So if we're ever at an event together and someone tries to join in your dance. At the end, please point them in my direction mate :flower:

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 02:39 PM
Thank you for the advice David. However, I have no need to re-educate myself concerning definitions. You see, I do lump them all together
Then you're wrong.

Or, at least, you're going against the consensus definitions reached by the more experienced dancers on the forum, who agree that there is a difference.

Like it or not, discussion of dance at some level does require some clarity in definition.


From my perspective there really is no need for all the linguistic gymnastics or semantic fantastics. It is not about N-Power, shower power, flower power or girl power. It all comes under one heading. Joining in. Simple.
No, because there are differences in degree.



I would much prefer to dance with someone than at them.
If that's what you think, I suggest your understanding of the lead/follow interaction is over-simplistic.



If they wish to join in then why should I try to stop them? I do not hold with the misogynistic chest beating caveman ethos of 'man lead, woman be grateful'.
Over-simplistic.


The way I see it, if a lead is freaking out because a follow is joining in, that says more about the lead than it does about the follow.

Over-simplistic.


However, we are all of us different. One man's meat is another man's poison and all that. So if we're ever at an event together and someone tries to join in your dance. At the end, please point them in my direction mate :flower:
Oooh, over-simplistic and patronising.

Have you even read those threads?

StokeBloke
26th-January-2009, 02:49 PM
Over-simplistic.
Perhaps to some :wink:

TA Guy
26th-January-2009, 02:52 PM
As I understand it, sabotage is where the follower ignores or in some way changes the lead, hijacking is where the follower takes over the lead.

I am not sure whether, for example, a follow holding her position at extension in order to do some 'hows yer father' dancing (sometimes called 'play') is sabotage or not.

That sort of play, it's not really about 'ignoring the lead' or 'changing the lead'. That ignores the subtleties. Any half-decent lead doesn't yank the follow forward in one sudden movement. There is a build-up of resistance eventually leading to a step forward. The follow doesn't 'sabotage' the step forward, that would ruin the dance, it occurs much earlier than that, she denies the very first build-up of resistance.

I prefer to think of it as part of the lead/follow conversation rather than sabotage, which I see as a much more blunt instrument.

But I could be wrong :)

In any event, it's A). More space, and time.
And if you wait for the follow to request it rather than force it, you'll never get the 'not leading me' complaint.

jivecat
26th-January-2009, 02:53 PM
I like this thread, it's almost like the old days on the forum when people used to have conversations about dancing.
The way I see it, if a lead is freaking out because a follow is joining in, that says more about the lead than it does about the follow.


Well, an inexperienced or unsure lead might be forgiven for freaking out if their carefully planned sequence of moves gets disrupted, as they may then feel at a loss as to how to pick it up and continue. That's not being a control freak, that's part of the difficulties in learning to be a good leader, and followers should be careful to respect that and support the leader.

My experience is that if I try a bit of mild playing with an inexperienced lead it is likely to be met with appreciation and alarm in equal measure. I always feel that I should be very careful how I contribute to the dance under those circumstances to avoid the lead feeling put off by my antics.

Conversely, with a highly capable lead, who you might expect to have each move planned, consciously or otherwise, to take advantage of the music, I'd be a fool to disrupt the flow of genius!

I do think there's a big difference between actively sabotaging the move planned by the leader thereby turning it into something completely different and making a contribution, which, to me, means fitting things into the frame work of what the leader has planned.

Lory
26th-January-2009, 03:07 PM
Lory please let it not be reason 2 !

Hun, its always no 3 with you! :friend:

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 03:12 PM
As I understand it, sabotage is where the follower ignores or in some way changes the lead, hijacking is where the follower takes over the lead.
Yes, that's the way I see it also.


I am not sure whether, for example, a follow holding her position at extension in order to do some 'hows yer father' dancing (sometimes called 'play') is sabotage or not.
To me it depends on the context:

If the leader has provided the possibility or space for play, then of course not.
If the leader is willing to allow such a possibility, or doesn't mind such an interpretation, then probably not (but it's more of a grey area).
If the leader is trying to do something else and the follower decides not to follow, then yes.



I prefer to think of it as part of the lead/follow conversation rather than sabotage, which I see as a much more blunt instrument.
I would class that as interpretation. Over-interpretation can result in sabotage, of course.

Frankly, if a follower expresses a consistent desire to sabotage, I have no interest in turning a dance into a wrestling match, so I won't dance with her. And I might also suggest she learns to lead, as a more constructive way of channelling her energies.

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 03:17 PM
Thing is with sabotage is...In my experience for a partner to sabotage you is a compliment.

The partner in question must have confidence in your ability to dance to even think about sabotage. If your partner sabotages you, just go with it and try to compliment her sabotage.

As an example I shall use Helen B whilst dancing with Helen B I take my life in my hands, I lead a move and she is off, with me hanging on to a Tiger's tail, never knowing what is going to happen next. This lends an air of mystery and spontanaety to the dance. These are the great dances that you as a leader will remember a long time.

my advice go with it and see where it takes you.
DTS XXX XXX

ant
26th-January-2009, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by David Bailey http://1.2.3.10/bmi/www.cerocscotland.com/forum/images/orange/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=529298#post529298)
Over-simplistic



Perhaps to some :wink:

DB I thought your post introducing the definitions was to bring some order back to the thread.

In regard to your debate with Stokebloke, I don't agree with you. Even by the definitions that you have put forward the terms hijack and sabotage are totally interchangeable.



Originally Posted by DavidB and quoted by David Bailey
Sabotage and hijacking both mean the same thing to me - the follower has decided to do something different to what I led. As a leader, I don't usually like that.


The only difference between what Skokie has been saying and your definition is that Stokie enjoys it and your definition says a leader shouldn't enjoy it.

Talking about your definition that itself is incomplete. You have definitions for part interventions in a dance but what name is given when the whole dance is hijacked, sabotaged or whatever. This happens to me regularly and even one very beautiful young lady well known on this forum has done it to me.

I agree that where safety issues are concerned or the followers intervention is because she is not happy how a leader is leading then this is different but where it is an expression of mutual respect and play then whether it is hijacking or sabotage is really irrelevant.

Maybe it is time to have a look at the definitions and bring in the element of intent by the follower, which in part was what the OP was trying to get at anyway.

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 03:50 PM
DB I thought your post introducing the definitions was to bring some order back to the thread.

In regard to your debate with Stokebloke, I don't agree with you. Even by the definitions that you have put forward the terms hijack and sabotage are totally interchangeable.
Not really.

Hijacking is taking over the lead for a move or a sequence of moves. Sabotage is deliberately messing up the lead. Of course, there's often a lot of overlap - you could argue that hijacking is a subset of sabotage - but they're not exactly the same thing.

Similarly, sometimes interpretation is hijacking or sabotaging or all three. Sometimes it's not.

It often depends on context.

But either way, there's a spectrum of behaviour, not just one homogenous group.


The only difference between what Skokie has been saying and your definition is that Stokie enjoys it and your definition says a leader shouldn't enjoy it.
No, Stokie's saying that they're all the same thing - I'm not.

I'm saying there are differences, and that it's not that simple.

Lory
26th-January-2009, 03:54 PM
Finish the dance with your partner, and simply don't dance with her again.


How about if we rename it, as 'adding embellishments' :wink:

robd
26th-January-2009, 03:57 PM
David B's quote post specifically mentions that it is written in the context of dancing with someone you don't know, David Bailey, I think - based on posts in this and other threads - has the same attitude towards sabotage regardless of whether or not he has 'previous' with that person.

I think both Stokie and DB are at extreme ends of a spectrum. Personally, I don't mind an occasional sabotage - it can lighten up a dance when often I am bored by my own repertoire and gives an opportunity to 'sabotage the sabotage'. However, like it or not, social MJ dancing convention is that there is a leader and there is a follower so sabotage done too often or (as is the case more frequently) done badly is just an irritant that makes me less likely to want to dance with that follower in future.

ant
26th-January-2009, 03:57 PM
Not really.

Hijacking is taking over the lead for a move or a sequence of moves. Sabotage is deliberately messing up the lead. Of course, there's often a lot of overlap .

Are they not the same thing.

I have never stopped a dance and had a conversation like

"would you like to take over the lead now darling"

"thank you very much, yes I will"

and I doubt whether you have either.

If the follower wants to take over the lead and you allow it to happen, thats it job done. If you try to stop her then it gets messed up.

To me that is the only difference when such an action occurs.

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 04:06 PM
David B's quote post specifically mentions that it is written in the context of dancing with someone you don't know, David Bailey, I think - based on posts in this and other threads - has the same attitude towards sabotage regardless of whether or not he has 'previous' with that person.
Not quite - but I don't have many regular dance partners in MJ as I don't do it often enough. If I did have more regular MJ partners, I'd probably develop more of a feel to their style, so I'd maybe get better at interpreting "want to play" signals.


I think both Stokie and DB are at extreme ends of a spectrum.
Yeah, probably.


However, like it or not, social MJ dancing convention is that there is a leader and there is a follower so sabotage done too often or (as is the case more frequently) done badly is just an irritant that makes me less likely to want to dance with that follower in future.
Same applies to all lead and follow dances. Arguably some dances are more "play-friendly" than others, of course.

Lory
26th-January-2009, 04:09 PM
Hijacking is taking over the lead for a move or a sequence of moves. Sabotage is deliberately messing up the lead.


Question, what is this....

The lead leads a spin or return etc, I follow but I slow it down to fill a particular phrase in the music.. i.e. instead of taking 1 or 2 beats to turn, I take 4

Sabotage or Hijack?

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 04:09 PM
Are they not the same thing.
They can be - it depends on context, on intent, and so on (and yes, some leaders will have different interpretations of the terms).

To me, there's a difference, however.


If the follower wants to take over the lead and you allow it to happen, thats it job done. If you try to stop her then it gets messed up.
Actually, sabotage is not always taking over the lead (which I'd class as "hijacking"), it can be simply messing up or ignoring the lead for some reason.

ant
26th-January-2009, 04:10 PM
David B's quote post specifically mentions that it is written in the context of dancing with someone you don't know, David Bailey, I think - based on posts in this and other threads - has the same attitude towards sabotage regardless of whether or not he has 'previous' with that person..

Hi rob

I considered the point about knowing each other. That then begs the question to what degree. Are you intimate, are you regular dance partners down to having just introduced yourselves to each other before dancing or not




I think both Stokie and DB are at extreme ends of a spectrum. Personally, I don't mind an occasional sabotage - it can lighten up a dance when often I am bored by my own repertoire and gives an opportunity to 'sabotage the sabotage'. However, like it or not, social MJ dancing convention is that there is a leader and there is a follower so sabotage done too often or (as is the case more frequently) done badly is just an irritant that makes me less likely to want to dance with that follower in future


I think they both show differnt tolerences to hijacking and/or sabotage and to that extent I agree with you. However I do not think that the leads tolerance to hijacking/sabotage has been highlighted suffiently in DB's definition, unless the reference to knowing each other as in the first part of your post is it, in which case the diffence between hijack and sabotage should be based upon the view that

- a follower wants to play and is the lead happy with this not not. One definition being the lead is happy the other not.

I think there should be another term entirely when the follower is intervening for reasons other than mutual play and enjoyment and yet another term for safety.

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 04:12 PM
Question, what is this....

The lead leads a spin or return etc, I follow but I slow it down to fill a particular phrase in the music.. i.e. instead of taking 1 or 2 beats to turn, I take 4

Sabotage or Hijack?
It's neither - it's simply interpretation. "Playing", if you will. Nothing wrong with that.

Any half-decent leader should be fine with that.

And any decent leader should both allow and invite that.

ant
26th-January-2009, 04:42 PM
It's neither - it's simply interpretation. "Playing", if you will. Nothing wrong with that.

Any half-decent leader should be fine with that.

And any decent leader should both allow and invite that.

I relation to your the post quoted above a far more intelligent person than me just PMed me the following.

1. You are (meaning me) trying to bring out the difference between 'hijacking a move or dance, where the follower intends to make it into something completely different to what you (the lead) had intended. No issues of timing, safety etc.

to

2. hijacking the 'timing' ... where the lead leads the moves and the follow follows the move as he intended, but just plays with the times..

In realtion to 2. this may or may not be acceptable. an example when this is not acceptable to me is:

I dance with this lady occasionally. When we let go hands and then have to reattach she holds up reconnecting for what seems like ages (but is probabally only a split second) but during that time I am getting worried about our timing and how the dance progresses and thinking come on give me the hand, this is not a time to mess about . If this is an aspect of sabotage/hijacking you want to bring out, I'm with you, on that.

Astro
26th-January-2009, 04:50 PM
Still haven't had a dance yet Martin :wink:

Didn't you Minnie Mouse? Suppose you were too busy working NYE.

I managed to get mine, and meet Barbs. He's a great dancer. :clap:

HelenB
26th-January-2009, 05:21 PM
...As an example I shall use Helen B whilst dancing with Helen B I take my life in my hands, I lead a move and she is off, with me hanging on to a Tiger's tail, never knowing what is going to happen next. This lends an air of mystery and spontanaety to the dance. These are the great dances that you as a leader will remember a long time...

err, thanks, I think :what: :flower:

I think generally we all call things differently - I wouldn't say that I sabotage or hijack but do play a fair bit*. And then only when I'm confident the lead is willing/able. I suppose I trust my inner judgement for this so it need not be a rule that it doesn't happen on the first dance with them.

But I can see that some leaders don't like this. Fair enough. I like Marmite and some don't. So if I think they're willing, I'll play. If they don't like the taste of it, no worries (and that doesn't mean I wouldn't dance with them again either).

*this thread ain't half making me paranoid....

Lory
26th-January-2009, 05:29 PM
But I can see that some leaders don't like this.

*this thread ain't half making me paranoid....

Helen, its easy to tell if they don't like it.. they don't ask again! :D

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 05:37 PM
*this thread ain't half making me paranoid....

I actually don't have a problem with willing transfer-of-lead. What I mean is, I think it's a bit silly, like tag dancing or Double Trouble (the move not the forumite), it's a party trick, but it's not "wrong" in any way. It's like WCS - not my cup of tea, but I don't have a problem with it.

But I do have a problem with this whole mindset of "playing is what Good Followers Do" attitude I see from some intermediate-level dancers. That's rubbish.


There are plenty of superb, top-notch followers don't play, and don't want to (example: Lily B)

Then there are top-notch followers who will play if given space, but are just happy not to, if no space is given (example: CeeCee).

Then there are top-notch followers who will interpret and play as much as possible, but will still never disrupt the lead (example: Plum).


So playing is not mandatory to be a good follower. Following the lead well is mandatory to be a good follower. Playing is simply a stylistic component.

StokeBloke
26th-January-2009, 05:41 PM
err, thanks, I think :what: :flower:

For what it's worth Helen, you're WAY up on my "Oh oh oh look who's here I have to try and grab them for a couple of dances" list. I have danced with you quite often (although never often enough for my liking), and I can assure you I have never once left the dance floor after dancing with you without the huge tell-tale 'excellent' grin on my face.

Bring it on Oh-Playful-One :hug:

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 05:45 PM
I am mit Stokie on this one, every dance is a pleasure with HelenB.

I think the most memorable dances are with people who don't know the rule book on dancing, and just let themselves go and have FUN.

DTS XXX XXX

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 05:50 PM
Cor, you couple of crawlers. :na:

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 05:54 PM
Cor, you couple of crawlers. :na:

Divna worry pet YOU are still the love of my life, oh gorgeous and Masterfull one.

Ha thought that was over didn't you, oh illustrious one.:flower:

DTS XXX XXX

martingold
26th-January-2009, 05:58 PM
I think it's a bit silly, like tag dancing

I love tag and playing after all we are not in competition here we are only having fun
Its not that serious


I managed to get mine, and meet Barbs. He's a great dancer. :clap:
:blush:

I relation to your the post quoted above a far more intelligent person than me just PMed me the following.
. :lol:




As an example I shall use Helen B :worthy:


This lends an air of mystery and spontanaety to the dance. These are the great dances that you as a leader will remember a long time.
my advice go with it and see where it takes you.
DTS XXX XXX
:yeah:
i think that sums it all up nicely

martingold
26th-January-2009, 06:00 PM
For what it's worth Helen, you're WAY up on my "Oh oh oh look who's here I have to try and grab them for a couple of dances" list. I have danced with you quite often (although never often enough for my liking), and I can assure you I have never once left the dance floor after dancing with you without the huge tell-tale 'excellent' grin on my face.

Bring it on Oh-Playful-One :hug:

:yeah:

I am mit Stokie on this one, every dance is a pleasure with HelenB.

I think the most memorable dances are with people who don't know the rule book on dancing, and just let themselves go and have FUN.

DTS XXX XXX
:yeah:

nothing more to add here either

ant
26th-January-2009, 06:01 PM
I am mit Stokie on this one, every dance is a pleasure with HelenB.

I think the most memorable dances are with people who don't know the rule book on dancing, and just let themselves go and have FUN.

DTS XXX XXX

Darling I get this awful feeling I am missing out.

I have just got to have a dance with you. :flower:

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 06:04 PM
Darling I get this awful feeling I am missing out.

I have just got to have a dance with you. :flower:

Ant who are you propositioning here?

HelenB or me?

Either way you will get a dance.:wink:

DTS XXX XXX

jim
26th-January-2009, 06:05 PM
Sabotage the sabotage with a sabotage.

Got any specific ideas Steven?

I don't belive I ever been show a sabotage on a sabotage.

ant
26th-January-2009, 06:11 PM
Ant who are you propositioning here?

HelenB or me?

Either way you will get a dance.:wink:

DTS XXX XXX


I was thinking more along the lines of HelenB.

But I would have dance with you any time DTS but who will lead?

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 06:13 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of HelenB.

But I would have dance with you any time DTS but who will lead?

We will make it up as we go along mate.

The rules are......There are no rules.

DTS XXX XXX

Gerry
26th-January-2009, 06:18 PM
Question, what is this....

The lead leads a spin or return etc, I follow but I slow it down to fill a particular phrase in the music.. i.e. instead of taking 1 or 2 beats to turn, I take 4

Sabotage or Hijack?

I think that's called musicality:yeah::clap::rofl:

StokeBloke
26th-January-2009, 06:25 PM
We will make it up as we go along mate.

The rules are......There are no rules.

DTS XXX XXX
Can you define what you mean by 'no' and 'There', and post these definitions up in triplicate for us please Dave. It sounds like an off-the-wall fun way to dance, and we can't be having that - we need to sink the twin fangs of scrutiny and definition into it so we can suck out all the soul and joy :lol:

jim
26th-January-2009, 06:30 PM
no matter what they tell you about it when you are learning how many women do you know who will really do as their told :whistle:

How many men would take up dancing if them thought they would'nt be in charge? And unfortunatly how many will continue if they find out they're not in charge?

Sabotage is a isolated event though, so that may not be totally relevent to the thread.

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 06:31 PM
Can you define what you mean by 'no' and 'There', and post these definitions up in triplicate for us please Dave. It sounds like an off-the-wall fun way to dance, and we can't be having that - we need to sink the twin fangs of scrutiny and definition into it so we can suck out all the soul and joy :lol:

Damn it Stokie I thought it was all about fun, spontenaity and having a good time.

I will have to contemplate my whole dance ethos. Nobody told me we couldn't make sh1t up as we went along. As I say to my Taxi classes....If it goes wrong who cares it is only dancing, not dental surgery. Dance like you are naked in your bathroom.

Note to self...Stop having fun and dance properly man.

DTSXXX XXX

Gerry
26th-January-2009, 06:35 PM
So playing is not mandatory to be a good follower. Following the lead well is mandatory to be a good follower. Playing is simply a stylistic component.

I think David has brought up a really important point.

From a leads point of view I really enjoy leading a follower across my body into a really fast single of double spin, when the follower add a dip at her knees into a body roll while creating resistance I get this feeling that IMHO the dance is really working between us.

Apart from the really fasy MJ dances I think there will always be a time and a place for the follower to have a bit of fun, the hard part is for the leader not to feel like a spare part but to actually get involved in that moment.

Lastly I think the good leaders should actively go out of there way to give some followers some Me time to have some fun, the great Robert Cordoba made that comment at Hipsters:yeah:

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 06:35 PM
Damn it Stokie I thought it was all about fun, spontenaity and having a good time.
Well, I wouldn't know, I'm just a mere beginner.

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 06:35 PM
How many men would take up dancing if them thought they would'nt be in charge? And unfortunatly how many will continue if they find out they're not in charge?

Sabotage is a isolated event though, so that may not be totally relevent to the thread.

US US US MEN in charge, hold on me ribs just snapped again.

We as men are never in charge, of anything, if a woman is involved.

If in doubt, just ask your mother, older sister, wife, girlfriend or your primary carer. Any of the above will put you back on the straight and narrow mate.

Goodness me I need a fag and a cup of tea.

DTS XXX XXX

jim
26th-January-2009, 06:38 PM
Us guys just think we are leading, its a right con job. We just get all the responsability and do what we have to do as set by the woman we are dancing with. :wink:

I think like this somtimes: Only I don't think it's funny.

I think a dance like any game should be fair to all it's player.

I think we get all the reponsaibility and therefore get to do it how we want in order to make it easy for us, since we are overburden with thinking.

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 06:40 PM
Well, I wouldn't know, I'm just a mere beginner.

You are not a MERE anything, you lovely gorgeous man you. You are a light in a storm, a fried egg sandwich on a cold and frosty morning you are, ie very welcome, and hugely appreciated.:kiss:

DTS XXX XXX

jim
26th-January-2009, 06:40 PM
US US US MEN in charge, hold on me ribs just snapped again.

We as men are never in charge, of anything, if a woman is involved.



True Dave, but it is their job to maintain the 'illusion' that we are in charge.

kps
26th-January-2009, 06:42 PM
Personally I love it when the woman takes charge for a few moments and does her thing; it really spices things up and makes my night. It’s only recently that I started going to venues where they like doing this and I feel that it’s really improved my dancing.

ant
26th-January-2009, 06:44 PM
We will make it up as we go along mate.

The rules are......There are no rules.

DTS XXX XXX

Sounds like a deal to me.

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 06:46 PM
True Dave, but it is their job to maintain the 'illusion' that we are in charge.


There you go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The answer to the big question in life, answered for you on a humble dance Forum.

A Sainthood is the only reward for jim, never a truer word written pips.

God bless the girly's.

DTS XXX XXX

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 06:49 PM
Personally I love it when the woman takes charge for a few moments and does her thing; it really spices things up and makes my night. It’s only recently that I started going to venues where they like doing this and I feel that it’s really improved my dancing.

Those few moments last from BIRTH to DEATH.

Is no other blokes seeing a pattern here. Women rule the world, bosh bang end of.

DTS XXX XXX:doh:

kps
26th-January-2009, 06:55 PM
Those few moments last from BIRTH to DEATH.

Is no other blokes seeing a pattern here. Women rule the world, bosh bang end of.

DTS XXX XXX:doh:

Sounds Like I'm in the minority... But no woman rules my world.

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 06:59 PM
Sounds Like I'm in the minority... But no woman rules my world.

They do mate.....You just have not realised it yet.

Ok lets have a show of hands for the men only.

Who thinks women do not rule the world?

Looks around the densly packed room to see no men hands raised, thinks to myself, is this an Iranian shoplifting convention.

Lets see how many of you get that?

DTS XXX XXX

kps
26th-January-2009, 07:04 PM
But back on topic... I do enjoy it when they want to play, I just wished that is was taught more often.

ant
26th-January-2009, 07:13 PM
But back on topic... I do enjoy it when they want to play, I just wished that is was taught more often.


I don't think it can be taught.

You have some great followers that wouldn't dream of taking over the lead.

You have others that can't help themselves, its in them, as long as they feel the leader can deal with it and they won't get hurt, they are away.

Then there are all shades in between.

Wouldn't life (and dancing) be boring if we were all the same?

HelenB
26th-January-2009, 07:19 PM
For what it's worth Helen, you're WAY up on my "Oh oh oh look who's here I have to try and grab them for a couple of dances" list. I have danced with you quite often (although never often enough for my liking), and I can assure you I have never once left the dance floor after dancing with you without the huge tell-tale 'excellent' grin on my face.

Bring it on Oh-Playful-One


I am mit Stokie on this one, every dance is a pleasure with HelenB.


:yeah:nothing more to add here either

Cheques are in the post boys ... :worthy:


Cor, you couple of crawlers. :na:

Absolutely :rofl:


Darling I get this awful feeling I am missing out.

I have just got to have a dance with you. :flower:

You may regret asking that... :D

ant
26th-January-2009, 07:26 PM
You may regret asking that... :D

I doubt it.

I've never known a DTS :respect: or Stokie :respect: recommendation to be anything other than spot on.

Blimey I just noticed Martingold :respect: as well. Darling we have just got to have a dance.

kps
26th-January-2009, 07:29 PM
I don't think it can be taught.



Course it can be taught, Ive been in a few classes when they have done it... and the great follower are always the one that understand what the class is about and embrace it, as they understand that dancing is a conversation between two people.

kps
26th-January-2009, 07:32 PM
I doubt it.

I've never known a DTS :respect: or Stokie :respect: recommendation to be anything other than spot on.

Blimey I just noticed Martingold :respect: as well. Darling we have just got to have a dance.

I think i want to join this queue... for Helenb not ant

ant
26th-January-2009, 07:35 PM
Course it can be taught, Ive been in a few classes when they have done it... and the great follower are always the one that understand what the class is about and embrace it, as they understand that dancing is a conversation between two people.

Are they taught when they can do it. I agree with this.

Maybe they are taught how to play with the timing and breaks. I understand this.

What I had in mind is where the follower is off. You just pray you can hang on for dear life. They basically take over the whole dance. These dances are some of the most exhausting and exhilerating ones I have had. I have never seen that taught in a class.



I think i want to join this queue... for Helenb not ant


Don't you want to be in the queue for me to?

martingold
26th-January-2009, 07:50 PM
How many men would take up dancing if them thought they would'nt be in charge? And unfortunatly how many will continue if they find out they're not in charge?

Sabotage is a isolated event though, so that may not be totally relevent to the thread.
what has thread relevence got to do with anything this is the ceroc scotland forum after all


Can you define what you mean by 'no' and 'There', and post these definitions up in triplicate for us please Dave. It sounds like an off-the-wall fun way to dance, and we can't be having that - we need to sink the twin fangs of scrutiny and definition into it so we can suck out all the soul and joy :lol:
:lol::lol::lol: well that was one of those tea squirted through the nose moments stokie me old mate sadly aparently i have repped you too much lately


I

Lastly I think the good leaders should actively go out of there way to give some followers some Me time to have some fun,
:yeah:


True Dave, but it is their job to maintain the 'illusion' that we are in charge.
see there ya go agreeing with the relevence of the irelevant


I don't think it can be taught.

course it can
went to sara whites on sat night and just about every follow up there sabotages, hijacks and plays
they were taught that they were allowed to do this and not just told its a mans job to lead

Lost Leader
26th-January-2009, 07:53 PM
Personally I love it when the woman takes charge for a few moments and does her thing; it really spices things up and makes my night. It’s only recently that I started going to venues where they like doing this and I feel that it’s really improved my ........

This read like a REALLY interesting post, if somewhat off topic, right up until the word "dancing" :lol:

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 08:12 PM
Stokie you interloper you, you thing you, you are a thing, a thing I say.

Just noticed that HelenB has had her head turned by your quote..." bring it on, oh playfull one". She has deleted my quote and replaced me with you.

Infamy Infamy, you all have it in for me.

TURNCOAT!!!!!!!!

Women! Cant live with them, and cant beat them over the head with a blunt excrement. Oh I feel a lie down coming on. Where's me primary carer?

DTS XXX XXX

kps
26th-January-2009, 08:13 PM
This read like a REALLY interesting post, if somewhat off topic, right up until the word "dancing" :lol::wink:

HelenB
26th-January-2009, 08:21 PM
Just noticed that HelenB has had her head turned by your quote..." bring it on, oh playfull one". She has deleted my quote and replaced me with you.

I couldn't fit you in as well DTS... *ahem*

StokeBloke
26th-January-2009, 08:33 PM
I couldn't fit you in as well DTS... *ahem*
Best Papa Lazarou voice "Pay no heed to the Welsh one's outburst oh Playful One... you are my wife now!!!" :devil::devil::devil:

Caz
26th-January-2009, 08:38 PM
Best Papa Lazarou voice "Pay no heed to the Welsh one's outburst oh Playful One... you are my wife now!!!" :devil::devil::devil:

:lol: I was watching that last night.. teehee!

Dancing is all about fun.. I am in the helen B camp... love to sabotage / hi jack (whatever u wanna call it).... i personally don't fit in a box.:devil:

martingold
26th-January-2009, 08:42 PM
i personally don't fit in a box.:devil:
and i had already bought a box for when i next see you

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 08:42 PM
:lol: I was watching that last night.. teehee!

Dancing is all about fun.. I am in the helen B camp... love to sabotage / hi jack (whatever u wanna call it).... i personally don't fit in a box.:devil:
Oooh, you must be an assertive confident woman then. And probably a really fantastic dancer.

Girrrl Power.

Yay.

kps
26th-January-2009, 08:53 PM
Are they taught when they can do it. I agree with this.


Is there a wrong time to do it... I'm up for it whenever.:lol:



Don't you want to be in the queue for me to?

I dont think you would enjoy it.... I like to sabotage when I follow.:waycool:

Caz
26th-January-2009, 08:57 PM
and i had already bought a box for when i next see you

Well I won't get in it :na:


Oooh, you must be an assertive confident woman then. And probably a really fantastic dancer.

Girrrl Power.

Yay.

:blush: Just like to play.. I don't play by the rules.. never have done.. never will :wink:esp when it comes to dancing ...


Is there a wrong time to do it... I'm up for it whenever.:lol:



I dont think you would enjoy it.... I like to sabotage when I follow.:waycool:

Right.. next time I lead u.. I expect a sabotage :devil:

ant
26th-January-2009, 08:58 PM
Is there a wrong time to do it... I'm up for it whenever.:lol:

The only time is when the leader is actively leading a move. It can sometimes be dangerous if a follower tries to sabotage then. Other than that I agree with you.




I dont think you would enjoy it.... I like to sabotage when I follow.:waycool:


Darling I'd love it.

martingold
26th-January-2009, 08:59 PM
.

Right.. next time I lead u.. I expect a sabotage :devil:

he will caz believe me and he is a good follow as well

kps
26th-January-2009, 08:59 PM
Right.. next time I lead u.. I expect a sabotage :devil:

It will be my pleasure.

kps
26th-January-2009, 09:05 PM
Darling I'd love it.

:lol: I'll be your huckleberry


he will caz believe me and he is a good follow as well

Sssh Martin... Im only as good as the leader

ant
26th-January-2009, 09:14 PM
[quote=kps;529436]:lol: I'll be your huckleberry

I don't knowwhat it means. Is it good or bad?

Maxine
26th-January-2009, 09:16 PM
Loving the drops Maxine !!




:rofl::rofl:

I seem to remember you sabotaging me when I was leading and giving me a taste of my own medicine :respect:

kps
26th-January-2009, 09:17 PM
[quote=kps;529436]:lol: I'll be your huckleberry

I don't knowwhat it means. Is it good or bad?

If you look here (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-huc1.htm) it might explain.

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 09:21 PM
:blush: Just like to play.. I don't play by the rules.. never have done.. never will :wink:esp when it comes to dancing ...
So what, rules like "follow the leader" are just outmoded boring conventions, yes?

And I guess technique is for wimps? Musicality is irrelevant? Footwork is not important? Balance doesn't matter? Who needs rhythm? It doesn't matter if leads are not invitational? Dance isn't a conversation, it's a couple of shouting matches?

That sort of rule?

Forgive me, I've honestly no idea what you're talking about when you say this sort of thing (and, to be fair, when I've heard it from others). It literally makes no sense to me.

Exactly which rules are you talking about? Are you seriously saying you think that there a set of rules to dancing which are designed to make us all into robotic slaves or something?

Or is this just some kind of hippy / Spice Girls "Woo, look at me I'm a free spirit independent woman woooo" statement?

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 09:33 PM
To quote the ever wise and wonderfull Master of all everyone see's. Ie The Master himself..........Mr David, arse like a bag of peaches. Bailey.


PLAY NICE.

Lets compare dancing to The Matrix.

I quote, or even misquote....".Rules can be bent, some can be broken."

Same with dance, break a few rules and see what happens. What's the worst thing that can happen to you? It doesn't work try something else. Just as long as no one is hurt, does it really matter. Be sensible and use a bit of flair, flamboyance and camp it up. Gwon surprise yourself, wear your girlfriends underwear to work one day etc etc etc.

Have a play and experiment and see what happens, may surprise yourself pips.

DTS XXX XXX

Caz
26th-January-2009, 09:44 PM
So what, rules like "follow the leader" are just outmoded boring conventions, yes?

And I guess technique is for wimps? Musicality is irrelevant? Footwork is not important? Balance doesn't matter? Who needs rhythm? It doesn't matter if leads are not invitational? Dance isn't a conversation, it's a couple of shouting matches?

That sort of rule?

Forgive me, I've honestly no idea what you're talking about when you say this sort of thing (and, to be fair, when I've heard it from others). It literally makes no sense to me.

Exactly which rules are you talking about? Are you seriously saying you think that there a set of rules to dancing which are designed to make us all into robotic slaves or something?

Or is this just some kind of hippy / Spice Girls "Woo, look at me I'm a free spirit independent woman woooo" statement?


To quote the ever wise and wonderfull Master of all everyone see's. Ie The Master himself..........Mr David, arse like a bag of peaches. Bailey.


PLAY NICE.

Lets compare dancing to The Matrix.

I quote, or even misquote....".Rules can be bent, some can be broken."

Same with dance, break a few rules and see what happens. What's the worst thing that can happen to you? It doesn't work try something else. Just as long as no one is hurt, does it really matter. Be sensible and use a bit of flair, flamboyance and camp it up. Gwon surprise yourself, wear your girlfriends underwear to work one day etc etc etc.

Have a play and experiment and see what happens, may surprise yourself pips.

DTS XXX XXX


Think DTS said it all.... I just meant that when I dance (similar to in how I feel I live my life) I just go with the flow.. see what happens etc.. sometimes it means I hijack / sabotage, sometimes I do summat and my leader will be like "i like that do it again" and i cannot even remember / know what i have done.. that prob makes less sense but when i dance i just dance... no idea what done when etc... guess that is why i feel like i dont "follow the rules".:flower:

David Bailey
26th-January-2009, 10:16 PM
Think DTS said it all.... I just meant that when I dance (similar to in how I feel I live my life) I just go with the flow.. see what happens etc.. sometimes it means I hijack / sabotage, sometimes I do summat and my leader will be like "i like that do it again" and i cannot even remember / know what i have done.. that prob makes less sense but when i dance i just dance... no idea what done when etc... guess that is why i feel like i dont "follow the rules".:flower:
Ya bleedin' hippy. :na:

Gadget
26th-January-2009, 10:28 PM
When I was a know-it-all, just breaking out of my 'beginnerdom' and instantly becoming an advanced dancer(*); all sabotage, hi-jacking, and back-leading were the same thing - a disruption to my my lead. It is after all a lead and follow dance: I lead, my partner follows. I used (and still use) the same skills to recover from an awry follower as I did (do) use to re-gain control and fit everything back into the dance.

And at the time I was right: all of the follower's attempts to "play", to "hi-jack" or otherwise insert their input into the dance were disrupting my lead. Only the most skilful of followers can add styling without disrupting the lead. :worthy:

Then I was in a general workshop with no particular theme - getting honest feedback from various partners - and I found one experienced follower very hard work to lead. A discussion ensued that was one of these tardis openings: a little thing that lead to so much more inside...
She was slowing down in bits, deliberately ignoring my lead and styling things that seemed opposite to what I was trying to do. Why? Because she was listening to different things in the music than I was. She was playing to the music ~ just not the same music that I was dancing to. The flaw was on both sides: I wasn't giving her any 'space' to play and she was riding rough-shot over my lead. We were both dancing. Together. But not with each other.

Out of this I matured a bit in my lead:

I 'eased up' and became less dominating. I didn't need to push and pull my partner all over the floor: they are an animate being that can move under their own steam. I just need to be beside them and nudge them in the right direction. The better the follower, the less 'nudging' is needed because they fall into step beside you.

I started to pay attention to what my partner was doing. I'm concentrating on leading, moving over the floor, what I've done, what I'm about to do, what I can do next, how I can get into the right position for that big move I know, where everyone else is on the floor, not breathing on my partner's face because I had garlic bread for tea, giving some eye contact, smiling, staying on beat, .... and three million other things. My partner is just following and making the dance look good. :worthy: They have the spare mental multi-tasking capacity to actually listen to the music. If they are accenting something, then there is a good chance that it's in the music.

I started to listen to the music more. With these not-so-subtle 'clues' from followers, breaks I would emphasise the exit on, they were emphasising the entrance. Choruses they were doing roughly the same thing on. Blank twiddly bits I would ignore, they were doing wiggles through... I opened my ears to more of the music than I would have normally danced to and tried to find the same things that my partner was dancing to.

I left 'gaps' in my dancing during interesting bits. This is not just stopping and seeing what happens or doing some fancy footwork with a 'your turn now' ending or shining a spotlight focus on your partner. It is subtly relaxing the lead to provide the follower with an opportunity to hi-jack or an opportunity to add some style where your lead is minimal and/or providing them with a solid frame to use. This is quite tricky and hard to describe, but it relies on consistency within the rest of your lead so that the follower can pick up on the change when it's relaxed.


As a result of this, I think my dancing has improved. I do now see a distinction between
back-leading {where the follower takes the start of a move you've lead and finishes it for you}
Hi-jacking {where the follower stops your lead and does some styling or can try and lead you}
Sabotage {where the follower follows your lead up to a point, then blocks it and does another move or variation}
Playing {where the follower does the move you lead, but with lots of embellishments and distractions}

Now to the question of what to do to stop it? Answer: nothing. The follower will (99% of the time) look better than you - let them have the lime-light and use the few moments to enjoy the show and learn.
I don't let followers back-lead me. I tend to hi-jack any hi-jackers right back. Sabotage moves I can recover from and are a show of confidence in my ability to recover from the unexpected. Playing I try and play right back, giving as good as I get. It's all part of the dance. :D yae :clap:

{* I seem to be regressing: I know less and less about more and more :tears:}

dave the scaffolder
26th-January-2009, 10:44 PM
I can actually see where, the gorgeous, David Bailey is coming from.

One must follow the rules until they are 2nd nature, because, as I see it, 99% of your dancing, especially in the first couple of years, are danced to the rules of whatever dance you enjoy.

Then one fine day you have the rules and you want to experiment and step outside of the rules. However you are unable to do this at the start of dancing. When you reach this, rule breaking stage, then you develop your style and flair and individuality in your dance style. This stage is different for everybody, for instance if you are a person who does their own thing and have a cutting edge approach to life, with a stunning name like Neville, you may be ahead of the game. Some people will never shed the shackles of conformity and always blend in and never rock the boat.

Then there are us, the people who adapt, improvise and add flair, camp it up, we just immerse ourselves in the pursuit of non conformity in the dance world. Are we better than anybody else? I think not, we just see things a little different and find new and exciting variations to established moves, we change partners and generally have fun with the subtle changes in our style and dancing.

This will not apply to everyone as, we all function basically the same but with little differences. Nothing is better or worst, things are just different.

I basically feel you get out of dancing what you put in. If you put in a little mix and flair I think that you are abetter dancer for it. Just my opinion pips please feel free to disagree, in a fluffy bunny way if you please.

Sounds like a load of boll*x, but you get my drift. There is no right and wrong in dancing, just different interpretations.
DTS XXX XXX

ant
27th-January-2009, 01:03 AM
[quote=ant;529437]

If you look here (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-huc1.htm) it might explain.

Thats cool.

ant
27th-January-2009, 08:24 AM
I actually don't have a problem with willing transfer-of-lead..

DB this is not what I have been trying to describe. In the instances I have in mind it is the balance within the lead, in relation to the dominant rhythm, that changes. I agree with you as follows:

Following the lead well is mandatory to be a good follower.

When dancing with more experienced followers in freestyles I feel something more is happening within them than just robotically following a series of steps.

Firstly let me explain what I think happens when I dance with Icey, who I find is the best follower for me in her musical environment.

When I dance with Icey, I know 100% she will follow the lead. There is very little push/pull action it all comes from her read of my body movement. This leaves my hands freer than they otherwise would be and more space in my brain as I am not worried about adjusting for any different movements she may make because of the way she reads my lead.

I then feel in her a latent rhythm that is on a different level to mine. As I have time and free hands I can then tap into that rhythm and accentuate it. Hence this results in small body movements in a different timing to mine based upon a different layer of music that she is also following internally, her latent rhythm. However the direction and timing of the dance is still dictated by my rhythm.

Now lets take, in DTS terminology, the tiger by the tail follower. What is happening here is they still follow you in terms or your direction and rhythm but invite you in some subliminal way to follow their latent rhythm. If you take up this invitation, this latent rhythm becomes the only rhythm because they seem to suddenly explode. Body rolls. shoulder shimmys, leg kicks, multiple spins and various hip movements take over and the whole emphesis of the dance in relation to the dominant rhythm changes and once established lasts for the rest of the dance. They are still following you on one level as such because technically you are still leading but it is their rhythm that dominates. As Ruby Red explained to me its a bit like dancing in a competition the follower dances to her intepretation of the music and her patner is there to hold things together.

This differs from the Sara White type of hijack, which is more a play on timing within and breaks in the music and for a much shorter period of time, which I agree can be taught and done fantastically well by Sara White but your rhythm still remains the dominant rhythm.

Both these types of hijack are distinct from the type whether done consciously or subconsciously by some followers, who are not following at all or not thinking about the needs of the leader to maintain the dance and either mess up or make the lead anxious about having the timing of the lead messed up. I think this is the other side of the coin so to speak that DavidB had in mind when formulating his definitions.

Does any of that make sense?

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 01:56 PM
Just to get back to the "rules" thing, there's a quote which expresses very well what I'm trying to say:

"Freedom to a dancer means discipline. That is what technique is for--liberation."
- Martha Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Graham)

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 02:05 PM
When dancing with more experienced followers in freestyles I feel something more is happening within them than just robotically following a series of steps.
Well, sure. Where have I ever said anything different? :confused:

The lead-follow interaction is complex, it's subtle, it's varied, and it's difficult to describe. But it's definitely not supposed to be a wrestling match.

If a follower wants to lead, then that follower should learn to lead. You can't have two leaders in a dance at the same time, it just doesn't work.


{ snip grovelly Icey stuff :na: }This differs from the Sara White type of hijack, which is more a play on timing within and breaks in the music and for a much shorter period of time, which I agree can be taught and done fantastically well by Sara White but your rhythm still remains the dominant rhythm.
It is possible for a superb follower to hijack smoothly and to add to the dance. Plum is very good at this sort of thing, for example.

But frankly, most of the followers who try this are rubbish at it - they do their thing, when and where they want, then they leave the leader to pick up the pieces. Which is disruptive and annoying to any leader, at any level. More experienced leaders can recover from it better, of course, as they'll usually have any number of get-out-of-jail movements they can use at any given time.

Both sabotage and hijack are wresting the lead away from the leader. So at the very least, if you sabotage / hijack, you need to clearly transfer the lead back.

martingold
27th-January-2009, 02:16 PM
But it's definitely not supposed to be a wrestling match.
so no mud involved then?? :whistle:



But frankly, most of the followers who try this are rubbish at it


i have to disagree there almost all followers who sabotage/hijack and play are relatively experienced otherwise they dont have the confidence to do it hence they are more often than not good at doing it



Both sabotage and hijack are wresting the lead away from the leader. So at the very least, if you sabotage / hijack, you need to clearly transfer the lead back.
again in my experience most follows will let you know when they want you take the lead back up even if its only feeling the subtle change in tension why should it be anything other than subtle its up to the lead to notice the difference

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 02:21 PM
i have to disagree there almost all followers who sabotage/hijack and play are relatively experienced otherwise they dont have the confidence to do it hence they are more often than not good at doing it
Relatively experienced is a relative term...


again in my experience most follows will let you know when they want you take the lead back up even if its only feeling the subtle change in tension why should it be anything other than subtle its up to the lead to notice the difference
Sorry, that's rubbish.

I wouldn't accept "Oh, my lead was too subtle, it's the follower's fault for not noticing it" as an excuse from a leader, why on Earth should it be OK for a hijacker (who's acting as a leader, remember) to get away with it?

Leads should be clear. Always. No exceptions.

martingold
27th-January-2009, 02:40 PM
Sorry, that's rubbish.

I wouldn't accept "Oh, my lead was too subtle, it's the follower's fault for not noticing it" as an excuse from a leader, why on Earth should it be OK for a hijacker (who's acting as a leader, remember) to get away with it?

Leads should be clear. Always. No exceptions.

I think we will have to disagree on this one its when you are able to read the subtle look of an eye or movement of a hand that the dancers become as one both dancing together not one making all the rules and the other being bound by them

When i feel a dance is doing beyond the norm its because its either extremely passionate or extremely funny. When you get that serious connection of two people both putting their absolute all into it then all the leads and takeovers are almost telepathic they are so subtle

Double Trouble
27th-January-2009, 02:42 PM
Sorry, that's rubbish.


I think we will have to disagree on this one

I can easily settle this one for you boys, by telling you which one is (by far) the better dancer.:whistle:

StokeBloke
27th-January-2009, 03:03 PM
The lead-follow interaction is complex, it's subtle, it's varied, and it's difficult to describe. But it's definitely not supposed to be a wrestling match.

Agreed!


If a follower wants to lead, then that follower should learn to lead. You can't have two leaders in a dance at the same time, it just doesn't work.

Now we're getting somewhere. How about "it just doesn't work for you David"?


It is possible for a superb follower to hijack smoothly and to add to the dance. Plum is very good at this sort of thing, for example.

Then in the next breath....


But frankly, most of the followers who try this are rubbish at it - they do their thing, when and where they want, then they leave the leader to pick up the pieces. Which is disruptive and annoying to any leader, at any level. More experienced leaders can recover from it better, of course, as they'll usually have any number of get-out-of-jail movements they can use at any given time.
Any leader? Or most leaders? Or you as a leader? Or you unless you're dancing with Plum? Or something else? Because you've just said it can't be done; straight after declaring that it is possible.


Both sabotage and hijack are wresting the lead away from the leader. So at the very least, if you sabotage / hijack, you need to clearly transfer the lead back.
You like the word wrestling don't you. It's such an emotive phrase to use in regard to partner dancing. It sounds so clumsy, so un-dancelike. Maybe it only feels like wrestling if you are not prepared to let follows experiment, play and develop towards the giddy heights of Plum. See, it's not just leads who need to grow and develop as dancers. We all need room to experiment and grow. Your message seems to be "it's OK to join in if you're good at it. But don't try to learn anything with me as I am only tolerant of great follows doing this. Go away, dance and learn with other people then come back and join in with me when you are ready to join in a dance with the Great Bailey." Frankly that sucks quite a lot fella.

Since reading your endless denigrating comments about the skills of follows on this thread, you're complete lack of understanding of how other dancers also need to learn and grow in real time. After reading you constantly and bluntly putting down less experienced or skilled follows, I can honestly say that my respect for you as the accomplished dancer that you clearly are has plummeted. Now, that is a real shame :sick:

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 03:26 PM
I think we will have to disagree on this one its when you are able to read the subtle look of an eye or movement of a hand that the dancers become as one both dancing together not one making all the rules and the other being bound by them
Argh! Rules again... I still have no idea what that means. I mean, literally no idea. Do you mean technique? Convention? Musicality? What "rules" are you on about? :confused:

And, yes, sure, part of good following is recognising subtleties of leading. But a leader should never depend on the follower being able to interpret subtlety of lead. It's unfair to the follower; it's the leader's responsibility to lead clearly.

That's a rule, if you want. Do you disagree with that?


When i feel a dance is doing beyond the norm its because its either extremely passionate or extremely funny. When you get that serious connection of two people both putting their absolute all into it then all the leads and takeovers are almost telepathic they are so subtle
Yep, indeed. And that has, well, nothing to do with the topic we're discussing. Just because I don't waft off into lyrical tracts, doesn't mean I don't understand or use connection and intimacy, you know?

So I'm not sure what your point is here?

martingold
27th-January-2009, 03:28 PM
I can easily settle this one for you boys, by telling you which one is (by far) the better dancer.:whistle:
surely you have to be able to dance to judge :lol:

Double Trouble
27th-January-2009, 03:32 PM
surely you have to be able to dance to judge :lol:

Absolutely! I'm not going by my own opinion, God forbid! I'm useless...I'm just going by what every other follow I know who's danced with you and DB has told me. Funnily enough, the answer is always the same.:wink:

martingold
27th-January-2009, 03:37 PM
Yep, indeed. And that has, well, nothing to do with the topic we're discussing. Just because I don't waft off into lyrical tracts, doesn't mean I don't understand or use connection and intimacy, you know?

So I'm not sure what your point is here?

my point is simple if you as a lead cant feel the subtle changes in the desires of the follow you need to learn me old mate

suddenly your dancing will take on a whole new meaning. I know mine did when i was first shown this by Kel-warminster back at storm, since then i am continually feeling and looking for that response

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 03:46 PM
Agreed!

Now we're getting somewhere. How about "it just doesn't work for you David"?
I'm not sure how it can work for anyone to be honest. If you have two leaders trying to lead simultaneously, isn't that a continuous competition? How can you have a partner dance if you're both trying to do different things at the same time? :confused:


Any leader? Or most leaders? Or you as a leader? Or you unless you're dancing with Plum? Or something else? Because you've just said it can't be done; straight after declaring that it is possible.
Nope, you're over-simplifying my position. Again. :na:

But to clarify, I'm saying that this "Oooh, I like hijacking, it's a natural part of my dance development as a follower" attitude I hear from bloody-intermediates is rubbish.

Hijacking can be done well. But most followers are nowhere near good enough to do it well, and simply shouldn't try. I doubt there are more than 10 MJ followers in Greater London who have the ability, the experience and the attitude to do it well. And 10 is optimistic - personally I only know 3-4. Plum is a good example, that's why I mentioned her.

It's like aerials, basically - in some very rare circumstances they're spectacular, but people tend to rush into doing them far too soon and are far too over-confident.

To hijack well, you need to (at minimum):
- Identify an opportunity (ideally a led one)
- Use the opportunity, instantly switching from follow to lead role
- Clearly signal this transfer to your partner
- Clearly lead your (unprepared) partner
- Clearly and smoothly transfer the lead back when finished.

Most bloody-intermediates don't even understand this process, let alone have the ability to actually do it.

So, is that making my position clear?



You like the word wrestling don't you. It's such an emotive phrase to use in regard to partner dancing. It sounds so clumsy, so un-dancelike.
Funny that. But OK, how about "competition"?

I don't feel dancing is a competition, I think it's a conversation. Maybe that's another one of my silly little rules.


Maybe it only feels like wrestling if you are not prepared to let follows experiment, play and develop towards the giddy heights of Plum.
Huh. I'm guessing you've not danced with her? Your loss.


See, it's not just leads who need to grow and develop as dancers. We all need room to experiment and grow. Your message seems to be "it's OK to join in if you're good at it. But don't try to learn anything with me as I am only tolerant of great follows doing this. Go away, dance and learn with other people then come back and join in with me when you are ready to join in a dance with the Great Bailey." Frankly that sucks quite a lot fella.
The Great Bailey - I like it :)

But no, that's not my message. If I had a message, it'd be: "dancing is hard, and some stuff takes work to do well". Or, possibly, "Wibble wibble wibble". It's a tough call.


Since reading your endless denigrating comments about the skills of follows on this thread
Where? I'm usually quite clear never to talk about any individual's dance ability, especially in denigratory terms.


, you're complete lack of understanding of how other dancers also need to learn and grow in real time.
Where did I say that?


After reading you constantly and bluntly putting down less experienced or skilled follows, I can honestly say that my respect for you as the accomplished dancer that you clearly are has plummeted. Now, that is a real shame :sick:
Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way. If you'll recall, my only initial comment was that there are differences between "playing", "interpretation" and "hijacking", and I was trying to explain how I saw those differences.

This is a dance discussion forum. We discuss dance. Well, in theory.

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 03:47 PM
my point is simple if you as a lead cant feel the subtle changes in the desires of the follow you need to learn me old mate
Errr.... I think you missed my point.

If you transfer lead, then the new leader has the same obligations as the old leader. That's all.

dave the scaffolder
27th-January-2009, 03:48 PM
Head's up David Bailey, Stokie and Martin Gold. Boys boys boys wind your necks in. A healthy difference of opinion is good for the Forum, but lets get a bit of perspective here....It is only dancing.

We all dance different and all at differing levels, lets not all fall out over who is right or wrong, it don't really matter.

As long as you as an individual are getting satisfaction from your individual style of dancing, does it really matter who is right or wrong. We all have different things we want from dancing.

We have 3 well respected dancers chewing the same bone here. Agree to disagree, you are all right as it applies to you each individually. Personally I think all 3 of you are cracking dancers, with different styles, all these styles work.

There is no definitive answer in the world of dance, just different interpretations. If we all danced the same, every dance would be boring as hell. Contrasting styles only add to the pleasure of the dance. GROUP HUG.

Did I mention that there are children in Africa starving?

DTS XXX XXX

straycat
27th-January-2009, 03:49 PM
Absolutely! I'm not going by my own opinion, God forbid! I'm useless...I'm just going by what every other follow I know who's danced with you and DB has told me. Funnily enough, the answer is always the same.:wink:

Now now... play nice... (or someone might confiscate your ruler :whistle: )

martingold
27th-January-2009, 04:07 PM
Head's up David Bailey, Stokie and Martin Gold. Boys boys boys wind your necks in. A healthy difference of opinion is good for the Forum, but lets get a bit of perspective here....It is only dancing.

We all dance different and all at differing levels, lets not all fall out over who is right or wrong, it don't really matter.

DTS XXX XXX

Tis ok dts me old mate i am not taking offense or hopefully giving it
I agree we all dance differently which is exactly my point

Mr Bailey you say dancing is a conversation well that means it comes from both sides not one talking and the other listening which is what you seem to be saying is the only decent way as very few follows can take over the lead
in the last few months i have met loads of really great follows who will constantly play with the lead changing hands on numerous occasions throughout the dance
if you want me to name i a few i can easily do so
batgirl, jayjay, sunnybunny, maxine ,essie-jo, sara white, liz mcaig, helen-b
This is just a very small list sorry to any i have missed i could go on naming all morning but would run out of room
give any of these girls their space and they will all fly when they do watch out your dance will take on a whole new meaning

Astro
27th-January-2009, 04:41 PM
Best Papa Lazarou voice "Pay no heed to the Welsh one's outburst oh Playful One... you are my wife now!!!" :devil::devil::devil:

Dave?:wink:

Take her to the cage, put her in with the other wives and give 'em a hose down.

Terpsichorea
27th-January-2009, 04:50 PM
Think DTS said it all.... I just meant that when I dance (similar to in how I feel I live my life) I just go with the flow.. see what happens etc.. sometimes it means I hijack / sabotage, sometimes I do summat and my leader will be like "i like that do it again" and i cannot even remember / know what i have done.. that prob makes less sense but when i dance i just dance... no idea what done when etc... guess that is why i feel like i dont "follow the rules".:flower:

Which is why I enjoy dancing with you so much Caz:hug:

dave the scaffolder
27th-January-2009, 04:50 PM
Dave?:wink:

Take her to the cage, put her in with the other wives and give 'em a hose down.

I missed this programme.....Damn it Janet.

Girls do not be turned from the path of truth by the Stokie, ie Nemises of mine is he.

DTS XXX XXX

bigdjiver
27th-January-2009, 05:08 PM
... Hijacking can be done well. But most followers are nowhere near good enough to do it well, and simply shouldn't try...

:devil: Leading can be done well, but most beginners are nowhere near good enough to do it well, and ... ?

We all have to start somewhere, even hijackers.

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 05:19 PM
:devil: Leading can be done well, but most beginners are nowhere near good enough to do it well, and ... ?
Absolutely.

But leading is mandatory in a partner dance - it's one of those silly rule things. You just have to learn it.

Whereas hijacking is not. Again, hijacking is like aerials, or triple-spinning - you don't have to do it, and a lot of people do it really badly. It's a speciality, if you want.

martingold
27th-January-2009, 05:35 PM
It's a speciality, if you want.
which is what makes it so interesting when someone tries to do it

straycat
27th-January-2009, 05:41 PM
But leading is mandatory in a partner dance - it's one of those silly rule things. You just have to learn it.

Whereas hijacking is not. Again, hijacking is like aerials, or triple-spinning - you don't have to do it, and a lot of people do it really badly. It's a speciality, if you want.

At the risk of nit-picking - contact improvisation (http://www.contactimprov.com/whatiscontactimprov.html) is a an example of a partner dance without the defined leader/follower roles that you yourself prefer.

The lead / follow 'rules' in partner dance are, IMO, dance-specific conventions. Yes - those conventions apply to MJ, but many forms of partner dance are constantly evolving, and I'd like the think that MJ is one of those. If people want to explore beyond the current conventions, that's exciting, surely? There's no problem if that doesn't suit you ... but there's no need, I feel, for anyone to condemn the idea either.

Jay Jay
27th-January-2009, 05:43 PM
I am a tad confused on this thread regarding hijacking, back leading and sabotaging.....I just take the dance as the dance comes, sometimes I misread a lead....and do something not intended but it still works, is that so awful? Sometimes there is a moment where I am left to my own devices so I play a little and that is okay I presume....but to me the sound of 'sabotaging' sounds like you are out to take full control of the moves and that is something I never do.........I do agree with David on the point that the leader at the end of the day is the leader, but it is nice to have fun along the way too :wink:

dave the scaffolder
27th-January-2009, 05:50 PM
I am a tad confused on this thread regarding hijacking, back leading and sabotaging.....I just take the dance as the dance comes, sometimes I misread a lead....and do something not intended but it still works, is that so awful? Sometimes there is a moment where I am left to my own devices so I play a little and that is okay I presume....but to me the sound of 'sabotaging' sounds like you are out to take full control of the moves and that is something I never do.........I do agree with David on the point that the leader at the end of the day is the leader, but it is nice to have fun along the way too :wink:

And who will NOW say that women do not rule the world.

Whilst all of us blokes have been applying a £50 solution to a 10 bob problem, Jay Jay has solved the dilema for the cost of nought.

Never seen a better explanation than this.

Outstanding baby, just outstanding. Now give the boys a slap and send to bed without any supper.:worthy::worthy::worthy:

DTS XXX XXX

Lory
27th-January-2009, 05:50 PM
:devil: Leading can be done well, but most beginners are nowhere near good enough to do it well, and ... ?

We all have to start somewhere, even hijackers.

This is a good point..

I don't suppose anyone sets out to disrupt the lead but often, when your first trying to do something, you inevitably end up cocking it up.
It's only when you've practiced it enough to become skilled at it, that its ever guaranteed to go smoothly.
I told someone only last week... practice all your fiddly stuff when your dancing with a beginner,

a) Its a way of making the dance more interesting (for you) and
b) They haven't clue if your messing it up or not :whistle::wink:

Failing that, find a nice patient partner and say, can I have two dances please, I'd really like to try some stuff out on the first one and I'll make it up to you on the second one :flower:

Trouble
27th-January-2009, 05:52 PM
I am a tad confused on this thread regarding hijacking, back leading and sabotaging.....I just take the dance as the dance comes, sometimes I misread a lead....and do something not intended but it still works, is that so awful? :

Im sure we have covered this so many times before but this is how i understand it.

Hijacking is taking over the lead, ie: becoming the man if you like.

Sabotaging is interupting a lead move and making it something different. IE: if a lead tries to put you into a sway, duck backwards and go under his arms.

Backleading is actually pushing a lead into moves, done a lot with beginners i think which actually does not help at all for their learning but makes for a more interesting dance when they really only know basics.

At the end of the day though... its what you want to do that matters. If a lead does not like you doing any of the above, then they wont ask you again.... i find though as somebody who does like to do both hijacking and sobotaging that most men love it. :yum::D

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 06:01 PM
At the risk of nit-picking - contact improvisation (http://www.contactimprov.com/whatiscontactimprov.html) is a an example of a partner dance without the defined leader/follower roles that you yourself prefer.

Hmmm...


If you could do Aikido, surf, wrestle and dance at the same time, you would have an idea of what Contact Improvisation feels like

:whistle: :D


The lead / follow 'rules' in partner dance are, IMO, dance-specific conventions. Yes - those conventions apply to MJ, but many forms of partner dance are constantly evolving, and I'd like the think that MJ is one of those. If people want to explore beyond the current conventions, that's exciting, surely?
It would be, if that were the case.

If people were dedicated to creating a new dance form, and were spending time and effort to work on, practice, study and understand how such a form could be used, great.

But come on, we're not exactly talking about Gustavo Naveira and Fabian Salas setting up the Tango Investigation Group here. So it's a bit of a stretch to say that people are "learning" to hijack. How many hours a week do these hijackers spend practicing this? In round numbers?


There's no problem if that doesn't suit you ... but there's no need, I feel, for anyone to condemn the idea either.
Yes there is - I'm in a mood. :na:

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 06:07 PM
Hijacking is taking over the lead, ie: becoming the man if you like.
Yes. Or the "leader", being PC about it :wink:

If I were picky, and I am, I'd divide it further into voluntary hijacking (transfer of lead) and involuntary (which is more like sabotage).


Sabotaging is interupting a lead move and making it something different. IE: if a lead tries to put you into a sway, duck backwards and go under his arms.
Yes.


Backleading is actually pushing a lead into moves, done a lot with beginners i think which actually does not help at all for their learning but makes for a more interesting dance when they really only know basics.
Yes.


i find though as somebody who does like to do both hijacking and sobotaging that most men love it. :yum::D
I can't recall you sabotaging or hijacking me.... Maybe I'm just too insecure and you wanted to avoid hurting my feelings :flower:

Trouble
27th-January-2009, 06:12 PM
Yes. Or the "leader", being PC about it :wink:

If I were picky, and I am, I'd divide it further into voluntary hijacking (transfer of lead) and involuntary (which is more like sabotage).


Yes.


Yes.


I can't recall you sabotaging or hijacking me.... Maybe I'm just too insecure and you wanted to avoid hurting my feelings :flower:

Mr Bailey.... you are one of those leads that does not accept any attempt at sabotaging or hijacking. When you have a hold... there is no way i could change it..... your a strong little thing considering your just that (little i mean) your also very dominant on the dance floor and your leads are clear and precise. Its an adventure all on its own. :blush::D:yum:

Lory
27th-January-2009, 06:19 PM
I can't recall you sabotaging or hijacking me.... Maybe I'm just too insecure and you wanted to avoid hurting my feelings :flower:


Mr Bailey.... you are one of those leads that does not accept any attempt at sabotaging or hijacking.

:yeah: AND we're scared of you! :devil:

:wink:

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 06:29 PM
:yeah: AND we're scared of you! :devil:
Well if you weren't before, you probably are now :na:


It is better to be feared than loved
:grin:

Jay Jay
27th-January-2009, 06:38 PM
And who will NOW say that women do not rule the world.

Whilst all of us blokes have been applying a £50 solution to a 10 bob problem, Jay Jay has solved the dilema for the cost of nought.

Never seen a better explanation than this.

Outstanding baby, just outstanding. Now give the boys a slap and send to bed without any supper.:worthy::worthy::worthy:

DTS XXX XXX

Thank you kind sir, oh and by the way my mother always taught me never to let my man go hungry....

straycat
27th-January-2009, 06:39 PM
your a strong little thing considering your just that (little i mean)

Do you carry that ruler everywhere???

...

I'll get me coat.... :whistle:

bigdjiver
27th-January-2009, 06:44 PM
If someone sabotages an aircraft at best they render it inoperable, at worst they destroy it.

If they hijack it they just take it somewhere other than it was intended to go.

I am content to carry those concepts over to MJ. The ultimate sabotage is not to resume contact and wander off. A hijack has to start with a bit of sabotage, rendering the intended move impossible, but then has to put a different plan in its place.

In MJ. when the music is too loud for conversation :mad: I sometimes lead a move with a little known partner extremely slowly, allowing the lady plenty of opportunity to resist, i.e. sabotage it. If that happens I have an alternative ready.

Sabotage is a pretty clear indication that the leader is trying to do something that the follower does not understand, or does not like.

Sara White teaches some hijacks, and their responses. Alas her classes were not local for long enough for me to absorb the techniques. This seems to me to be moving MJ in a different direction. It undoubtably suits many, but I have not enough experience of it to have formed a view.

If I am hijacked, which is extremely rare, I am a bit to large for most ladies to take on. I do my best, but it is usually not pretty, which is probably another reason why it is so rare.

robd
27th-January-2009, 07:20 PM
Too lazy to quote but I did feel a bit harsh re-reading my earlier post in which I pretty much said what DB is saying about Sabotage generally being done pretty badly on the whole as I did think to myself 'How else are followers going to improve their capability in this regard other than practicing and attending workshops that cover this topic'? I don't know the answer to that, I just know there's a world of difference between my most memorable sabotage (ending up in the follow's sway position) which was from Lisa and the other times I experience it (usually that bloody duck under from my attempted sway *again* :rolleyes: )

Funnily enough, though Plum is a very talented and playful follower there have been occasions where I have resented acts of sabotage on her behalf as they have interrupted the flow of my lead. So clearly no-one (but me) is perfect :waycool:

jim
27th-January-2009, 07:44 PM
At the risk of nit-picking - contact improvisation (http://www.contactimprov.com/whatiscontactimprov.html) is a an example of a partner dance without the defined leader/follower roles that you yourself prefer.

Sounds a lot like caepoira. The dance between two men which is also a fight.

It only has one rule to stop it getting out of hand; play nicely or people won't play with you anymore.

martingold
27th-January-2009, 07:57 PM
i find though as somebody who does like to do both hijacking and sobotaging that most men love it. :yum::D

and i just love doing it with you :yum:

jim
27th-January-2009, 07:57 PM
We all dance different and all at differing levels, lets not all fall out over who is right or wrong, it don't really matter.

We have 3 well respected dancers chewing the same bone here. Agree to disagree, you are all right as it applies to you each individually. Personally I think all 3 of you are cracking dancers, with different styles, all these styles work.

There is no definitive answer in the world of dance, just different interpretations. If we all danced the same, every dance would be boring as hell. Contrasting styles only add to the pleasure of the dance.

DTS XXX XXX

Unfortunatly I think this really does matter. If you consistently have reasonable people, who can't agree about fundamental issuses then you have a problem.

I have this problem. I need to feel like I'm doing it properly, I need to feel like I know what my follower wants (in broad terms). I need to know where I stand. I need a conceret position for where I can say this is leading.

How can you lead or follow in a world where 50% of resonable people disagree with you? I mean where do you get the confidence to go out and do what you think is right?

martingold
27th-January-2009, 08:06 PM
Unfortunatly I think this really does matter. If you consistently have reasonable people, who can't agree about fundamental issuses then you have a problem.

I have this problem. I need to feel like I'm doing it properly, I need to feel like I know what my follower wants (in broad terms). I need to know where I stand. I need a conceret position for where I can say this is leading.

How can you lead or follow in a world where 50% of resonable people disagree with you? I mean where do you get the confidence to go out and do what you think is right?
end of the day when you first start learning you are taught a move based rotational dance
however as you progress you may find that you prefer moves which are slotted
this doesnt mean either one is wrong its personal choice
the same goes with sabotage hijack and play where some people like it and some dont
personaly i love the uncertainty of the dance it suits my style to allow freedom which works for me (and most of my partners)
To quote the magnificent DTS its not dental surgery it dont realy matter so long as you and your partner in the dance are enjoying the experience
and if you or your partner doesnt enjoy just dont dance with them again

there really isnt a right or wrong its about your own personal 3 minutes or so

jim
27th-January-2009, 08:18 PM
Rules Keep coming up.

Every society has rules & laws. So somewhere along the line humans must have worked out that playing without rules is a bad idea.

I think that some of us get very upset, when we're essentially playing by the rules and we feel that others are not. [The soultion maybe to join them]

It seems to me we all need arbitration in our lives and a well understood set of rules allows that in the absence on more experience non biased judges.

jim
27th-January-2009, 08:27 PM
To quote the magnificent DTS its not dental surgery it dont realy matter so long as you and your partner in the dance are enjoying the experience
and if you or your partner doesnt enjoy just dont dance with them again



In a world where people say 'if you can't dance with everyone you can't dance': Do you really think this is a reasonable attitude?

I'm trying to get on with as many people as possible.

I want to be able to walk into a dance and just grab a girl and go. I don't want to think ...ohh ...erm ... what if ...we don't get on?

If she's a reasonable person then we should be able to come to a reasonable soultion

ant
27th-January-2009, 08:47 PM
How can you lead or follow in a world where 50% of resonable people disagree with you? I mean where do you get the confidence to go out and do what you think is right?

Don't worry about it.

Although there is a difference of opinion there are only a handful of social dancers that will hijack/sabotage and the like and they will work you out, you don't have to work them out. It will take them 15-20 seconds to know whether you are up for it or not and will then act accordingly.

Its no coincidence that it is all the nutters on this forum that are for Sabotage/hijacking (with the possible exception of Straycat who is generally more sensible) and all the purists the real connisseurs of dance that are against it.

You fall into one camp or the other depending on why you want to dance. Talking for myself it would drive me nuts to follow the purist route, for DB it would probabally drive him nuts if he became randomnly experimental.

At the end of the day you pays your money and you take your chances and if in your heart you are getting hijacked/sabotaged or whatever and you believe it is because your partner is bored with with your lead then go and improve your lead, don't worry about the words. If you think you are being hijacked/etc because they want to play with you enjoy while it lasts.

martingold
27th-January-2009, 08:49 PM
In a world where people say 'if you can't dance with everyone you can't dance': Do you really think this is a reasonable attitude?

I'm trying to get on with as many people as possible.

I want to be able to walk into a dance and just grab a girl and go. I don't want to think ...ohh ...erm ... what if ...we don't get on?

If she's a reasonable person then we should be able to come to a reasonable soultion

its always a suprise (more often than not a nice one) when you dance with someone new no matter how long you have been dancing you never know what your going to get
i Andy Mcgreggors in hove town hall a few months ago was taught by lazy Dave Plummer who said "whenever you dance no matter who its with put your whole sole into it"
As it happens thats how i dance always everybody should be a bit scared of the unusual if your not then you wont put your all into it

Twirlie Bird
27th-January-2009, 08:51 PM
Thought it was about time I came back out of the shadows. :D

I like to play. When I first started dancing it was a concept that I just didn't understand. As a follower I was never taught how to play properly. I learnt from friends who do it and I learnt from playing around during dances with people I felt comfortable with. I am sure there were many times when I did it all wrong and messed up the lead though. :blush:

Now I tend to play a lot on the dance floor. I don't consider it as sabotage though. Maybe that's because I don't like the word as it sounds like a negative thing. When I play I try to add to the dance and it's usually done when I hear something in the music and I just can't help it.

Normally my playing isn't a problem. The guys I dance with tend to enjoy it and they then add something extra and the dance becomes something more than just a dance. However there are a couple of leads who I know just don't like it. They like to be in charge throughout the whole dance. I love dancing with these leads and I respect the way they dance. Therefore when I dance with them I do not play at all. I simply follow. :nice:
There has been the one occasion when a guy I was dancing with just stopped dancing and crossed his arms. Of course I then went into minx overload. Strangely enough I have never danced with him since. :rofl:

martingold
27th-January-2009, 08:55 PM
Now I tend to play a lot on the dance floor. I don't consider it as sabotage though. Maybe that's because I don't like the word as it sounds like a negative thing. When I play I try to add to the dance and it's usually done when I hear something in the music and I just can't help it.

Normally my playing isn't a problem. The guys I dance with tend to enjoy it

remembers my first dance with twirley bird :worthy: :flower:

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 09:08 PM
I did think to myself 'How else are followers going to improve their capability in this regard other than practicing and attending workshops that cover this topic'?

I view it as being like drops for leaders - yes, if you want to do them you need to practice. But you can't just do them on random partners, you need to practice them properly in a non-freestyle occasion, and you then need to knbow when you should and shouldn't use them. If done badly, they're awful. And I see a lot of really awful leaders doing "show drops" really badly - yes, even at Berko.

David Bailey
27th-January-2009, 09:15 PM
Don't worry about it.

Although there is a difference of opinion there are only a handful of social dancers that will hijack/sabotage and the like and they will work you out, you don't have to work them out. It will take them 15-20 seconds to know whether you are up for it or not and will then act accordingly.
Very good point - I mean, it's not like it happens all the time or something.

All I wanted to do at the start of this thread was to clear up some differences in behaviour... it's kind of snowballed since then :really:

And the reason I wanted to differentiate was because I have different attitudes to different types of behaviour:
- I'm happy with play and interpretation, and happy to encourage it.
- I'm not keen on hijacking unless done superbly well - but that's personal preference.
- I'm really against sabotage, because I think it's selfish and disruptive.

ant
27th-January-2009, 09:34 PM
There are plenty of superb, top-notch followers don't play, and don't want to (example: Lily B)

Then there are top-notch followers who will play if given space, but are just happy not to, if no space is given (example: CeeCee).

Then there are top-notch followers who will interpret and play as much as possible, but will still never disrupt the lead (example: Plum).




{snip grovelly Icey Stuff}


Mr Bailey on a point of order.

Why is it that I mention one follower and I get accused of grovelling and you mention three followers and thats all right.

AND

not only that you have the cheek to attribute the quote to me.

martingold
27th-January-2009, 10:35 PM
Mr Bailey on a point of order.

Why is it that I mention one follower and I get accused of grovelling and you mention three followers and thats all right.

AND

not only that you have the cheek to attribute the quote to me.
probably cos your an easy target ant lol :lol:

Jay Jay
28th-January-2009, 12:02 AM
How can you lead or follow in a world where 50% of resonable people disagree with you? I mean where do you get the confidence to go out and do what you think is right?

If you are the jim I think you are....I have danced with you a few times and I don't think you need to worry at all, we have had some brilliant dances together. You will always find people however good they are that you just don't gel with, I wouldn't look too deeply in to it, if you enjoy dancing with a certain person just keep them on your hit list and avoid the others you don't feel comfortable with, I know I do. :nice:

dave the scaffolder
28th-January-2009, 12:42 AM
Unfortunatly I think this really does matter. If you consistently have reasonable people, who can't agree about fundamental issuses then you have a problem.

I have this problem. I need to feel like I'm doing it properly, I need to feel like I know what my follower wants (in broad terms). I need to know where I stand. I need a conceret position for where I can say this is leading.

How can you lead or follow in a world where 50% of resonable people disagree with you? I mean where do you get the confidence to go out and do what you think is right?

jim you are over analysing this mate, different things work for different people.

These are not fundamental issues, these issues are fairly high up on the dance skills scale, by discussing these issues we get an idea of how people feel about it. This is the beauty of dance.

Little experiment here for you my lovely sit out a couple of dances at your next venue and observe the dances. Every couple will be interpreting the music differently and dancing differently. You may think the dancers can all hear different tunes. It is all in the interpretation of the moves and the music. Look at how people perform a first move, there will be subtle, or even massive, differences in their own interpretation. None of the interpretations are wrong, just different.

Key words here mate are.....Different interpretations.
Dont beat yourself up over who is right or wrong, everyone is right. Just dance and enjoy it, smile, sweat and flirt and the dance Oyster shall be yours mate. Dont think, react and enjoy, dance like you are naked in your bathroom, dance like you and your partner are the only people in the room.

DTS XXX XXX

martingold
28th-January-2009, 09:07 AM
jim you are over analysing this mate, different things work for different people.

These are not fundamental issues, these issues are fairly high up on the dance skills scale, by discussing these issues we get an idea of how people feel about it. This is the beauty of dance.


Key words here mate are.....Different interpretations.
Dont beat yourself up over who is right or wrong, everyone is right. Just dance and enjoy it, smile, sweat and flirt and the dance Oyster shall be yours mate. Dont think, react and enjoy, dance like you are naked in your bathroom, dance like you and your partner are the only people in the room.

DTS XXX XXX
once again mr scafolder you have hit the nail right on the head me old mate :worthy:
Jim take notice of this man you might think he is talking a load of old B%$£it :whistle: then when you read it properly you will see he is totally correct and has actually unlike the rest of us answered your question

StokeBloke
28th-January-2009, 01:03 PM
once again mr scafolder you have hit the nail right on the head me old mate :worthy:
Jim take notice of this man you might think he is talking a load of old B%$£it :whistle: then when you read it properly you will see he is totally correct and has actually unlike the rest of us answered your question
:yeah:If you're finding DTS's advice hard to pick out from the Welsh loveliness, you just need to install WelshFilter 2.1.2 onto your browser. That will parse the text through a complicated linguistic algorithm and remove all the Valley Chatter. Presto! Understandable advice from the Welsh dancefloor terrorist :rofl:

dave the scaffolder
28th-January-2009, 01:11 PM
Err thanks Stokie, I think.

DTS XXX XXX

marcusj
28th-January-2009, 01:20 PM
I hope to go to Stevenage tonight Mr DTS - and your ar*se will get a swift spanking if you so much as try any acts of hijacking or sabotage - be warned - that is unless you fancy a good spanking !

dave the scaffolder
28th-January-2009, 01:24 PM
I hope to go to Stevenage tonight Mr DTS - and your ar*se will get a swift spanking if you so much as try any acts of hijacking or sabotage - be warned - that is unless you fancy a good spanking !

Busy night for me then tonight. Going to help frolicolis and get a good ar*e spanking as well.

Stone me I am getting moist here.

Off down to the local Archery shop in a minute to spend some money afore the bast*rd tax man gets hold of it.

DTS XXX XXX

Lory
28th-January-2009, 01:40 PM
You will always find people however good they are that you just don't gel with, I wouldn't look too deeply in to it,

:yeah:

whitetiger1518
28th-January-2009, 02:46 PM
To get back to topic (ish):

I will usually only play with leaders that I know like playing.

Last night was an exception - a dancer I didn't know let me play as much as I wanted - I was just doing the occasional wiggle etc to emphasis breaks, but he twigged that I was listening to something in the music and gave me room and time to play so I started embellishing a few moves. I don't think he was a beginner but I haven't been to that venue for a while, so he might have been. Whoever he was it was superb, maybe the track was right and inspiration hit, because every time he left room for me to play a move presented itself. When the track stopped I got a Wow, that was great - and the feeling was totally reciprocated! :worthy:


The only move that I conciously stop is a catapult - I'm not particularly fond of them, and if I get too many in a row, then I get very dizzy. However, if you let me stop you half way through, then I have a move or two as alternate versions that you might like as an adventure.

Oh and I just don't do drops at all as I am not physically strong enough!


Cheers Whitetiger

StokeBloke
28th-January-2009, 03:33 PM
Oh and I just don't do drops at all as I am not physically strong enough!

Great to hear you're having fun. It's great when it comes out of the blue like that isn't it.

Drops. Completely up to you of course, but you do not need to be physically strong to do many drops. If it's something that you would like to explore then I'd suggest getting yourself onto a dips/drops workshop. The vast majority of it is in the technique, of course it's so much easier if both dancers know what they're doing. That way the follow will take the vast majority of her own weight, and the lead (by being in the correct stance) will be able to easily bring her back to her feet. The other thing is, you don't have to drop/be dropped right to the floor for a drop to feel beautiful for both dancers.

Up to you, thought I'd mention it though :flower:

~Jo~
28th-January-2009, 04:54 PM
Hey guys, I'm only just joined up so apologies if my input doesn't resonate!:blush:

I don't know what skill level of leads your aiming this at, but I'm assuming you mean when a follow sabotages an experienced lead? I mean, really....some of the guys I dance with, they don't signal, they don't do the move correctly (stepping back, the right hand hold etc). Or..they do part of a move and then completley forget the rest of it and will literally stop in the middle of the dance unless I take over the lead to finish the move and give them enough time to re-think the next one. I dance with men who grip my hand like they want to detach it form my body...I dance with men who 'cop a feel' when they like, or men who just dance so strangely with their own way of doing the moves that I just don't get it. In these situations, sometimes I feel the need to sabotage, especially if it's because the mans lead is actually causing me physical pain lol. Also, I get a lot of guys who are beginners trying to drop me, when they know that drops havent been covered in our classes yet. So...I put my foot down and I stop the move. I don't know if you guys think thats not a good thing for me to do. But the way I see it is....yeah we're follows but, we still have the right to enjoy the dance with the man and put our foot down or change a move if we're uncomfrotable with it. Obviously thats just one side of it....just adding my experience of it to the pot :popcorn:





Drops. Completely up to you of course, but you do not need to be physically strong to do many drops.

But you do have to have a strong core and good leg muscles. For a lot of the drops the lady is taking the weight over her leg, and she needs to use her core to life herself up, otherwise she pulls too much on the man and can cuase them both an injury. When I first tried a drop, I got down there...bu my stomach was too weak to support me back up, resulting in the guy needing to use all of his strength to pull me back up. So I would say to a degree your body needs to be strong, even if you're the lady.

martingold
28th-January-2009, 05:44 PM
Hey guys, I'm only just joined up so apologies if my input doesn't resonate!:blush:

nah jump right in none of us really know what we are talking about half the time so you have as much right to put your bit in as well :wink:



I don't know what skill level of leads your aiming this at, but I'm assuming you mean when a follow sabotages an experienced lead? I mean, really....some of the guys I dance with, they don't signal, they don't do the move correctly (stepping back, the right hand hold etc). Or..they do part of a move and then completley forget the rest of it and will literally stop in the middle of the dance unless I take over the lead to finish the move and give them enough time to re-think the next one. I dance with men who grip my hand like they want to detach it form my body...I dance with men who 'cop a feel' when they like, or men who just dance so strangely with their own way of doing the moves that I just don't get it. In these situations, sometimes I feel the need to sabotage, especially if it's because the mans lead is actually causing me physical pain lol. Also, I get a lot of guys who are beginners trying to drop me, when they know that drops havent been covered in our classes yet. So...I put my foot down and I stop the move. I don't know if you guys think thats not a good thing for me to do. But the way I see it is....yeah we're follows but, we still have the right to enjoy the dance with the man and put our foot down or change a move if we're uncomfrotable with it. Obviously thats just one side of it....just adding my experience of it to the pot :popcorn:

I dont know where you dance but if thats you true findings i would find somewhere that the men (or leads) respect the follows and or learn to dance
the leads where you are obviously have never been taught properly and need to learn some simple respect
most venues wouldn't put up with men "copping a feel" regularly they would soon be sorted out by the regular ladies



But you do have to have a strong core and good leg muscles. For a lot of the drops the lady is taking the weight over her leg, and she needs to use her core to life herself up, otherwise she pulls too much on the man and can cuase them both an injury. When I first tried a drop, I got down there...bu my stomach was too weak to support me back up, resulting in the guy needing to use all of his strength to pull me back up. So I would say to a degree your body needs to be strong, even if you're the lady.
to some extent what you are saying is true but
a lot of the drops can be done if executed correctly by the lead (and as stokie says you dont need to go to the floor) without the lead or the follow having to exert much strength at all in either direction its a matter of the lead getting into a good "A" frame and makig sure the follows center of gravity is in the correct place

David Bailey
28th-January-2009, 06:06 PM
Hey guys, I'm only just joined up so apologies if my input doesn't resonate!:blush:
Brave woman! :clap:


I don't know what skill level of leads your aiming this at, but I'm assuming you mean when a follow sabotages an experienced lead?
No, skill level isn't really an issue, to me. Although if it were an issue it'd be the other way round - in that it's worse to disrupt a beginner than an experienced dancer, as a beginner leader's overall confidence is likely to be lower anyway, so if he's thrown off he may find it more difficult to recover.


I mean, really....some of the guys I dance with, they don't signal, they don't do the move correctly (stepping back, the right hand hold etc). Or..they do part of a move and then completley forget the rest of it and will literally stop in the middle of the dance unless I take over the lead to finish the move and give them enough time to re-think the next one.
Actually, I'd say that's yet another class of behaviour - "backleading".

Yes, most beginner leads are rubbish. I certainly was. Don't say it.

And, during a class, there's an argument to say that backleading is occasionally necessary, as a memory-jogger if nothing else. But being a purist, I'd say that in social dancing, if the leader doesn't lead, then the follower shouldn't try to help - as it only reinforces bad habits.



In these situations, sometimes I feel the need to sabotage, especially if it's because the mans lead is actually causing me physical pain lol.
Self-defense is not sabotage.

I'd fully support any action taken to avoid pain, up to and including walking away in the middle of a dance. But I'd recommend telling the leader - I know, it's difficult, but a lot of leaders simply don't realise what they're doing. Certainly, if they're stupid enough persist in inflicting pain after being told, you should not ever dance with them again.

I'd also support anti-perve and anti-smellie actions. But again, those aren't sabotage, they're etiquette.


Also, I get a lot of guys who are beginners trying to drop me, when they know that drops havent been covered in our classes yet. So...I put my foot down and I stop the move. I don't know if you guys think thats not a good thing for me to do.
Refusing a drop should always be an option, that comes under the "self-defence" heading.

Complicated, isn't it? :wink:

~Jo~
28th-January-2009, 07:02 PM
Phew,

Well, I'm relieved thats not (bad)sabotage then, because I did think I was acting within my rights at the time lol.

The teaching where I'm at is good, but limited in variety. The problem with the men where I am is they go up to their more experienced friends and say "Show me a drop" and then waltz onto the dance floor 10 minutes later to try it out on the first lady they ask :naughty:

Also, I don't think the women are very experienced where I am either, so I've not seen any of this 'showy' sabotaging....just the whole 'neccessary for personal safety/self respect as a woman' reasons lol.

Putting myself in the position of a lead, I could see how it is disconcerting if a woman suddenly decides to break away and add her own things in, purely just to show off when you were planning something (or ignoring as other people have said). I certainly wouldn't do it with a lead who was a beginner...and I never CAN do it with a more experienced man cos they're just too dang manly with their lead to let me lol. :D

HelenB
28th-January-2009, 07:11 PM
Putting myself in the position of a lead, I could see how it is disconcerting if a woman suddenly decides to break away and add her own things in, purely just to show off when you were planning something (or ignoring as other people have said). I certainly wouldn't do it with a lead who was a beginner...and I never CAN do it with a more experienced man cos they're just too dang manly with their lead to let me lol. :D

Thinking back to when I started MJ, I remember adding in stuff without even considering the lead :what: :blush:. It took me some time to realise the lead is the "frame", the resulting dance "the picture" and any embellishments are "elements of shading" and not always necessary for a pretty piece of art

And as others have mentioned, for reasons of self preservation, it is always OK to say no and halt the move

dave the scaffolder
28th-January-2009, 07:15 PM
One small point that seem's to have been missed here pips.

We are only SOCIAL DANCERS, we are not professional dancers. We do this for fun and enjoyment, start over thinking things and the enjoyment will fade.

If you enjoy a hobby, you will get better at it just because you enjoy it and not see it as a chore.

This is only my humble opinion but I have allways split dancing into 2 camps.

1 The technically expert dancers who learn the moves superbly and dance correctly, every dance is perfect technique and marvellous.

2 The natural or instinctive dancers, these know the moves but interprate them with their own style, flair and campness, these dancers make sh1t up as they go along, they love the connection and feel of the dance. They feel the music in the very marrow of their soul, unconventional and a little bit scary.

IMHO canp 2 are the wet knickers type of dances that leave you breathless and panting for more.

Just my opinion folks, not gospel, just my take on things. Relax and go with it you may surprise yourself.

This is a male, mostly, lead dance, however the leader invites the follower to lead, up to her if she accepts or not, some of my best dances have been with followers who do not accept my lead. This is the heads up moment when sparkle appears and the room narrows down to you and your partner. Does not happen very often, but when it does, embrace it and step out of your skin and soar like an Eagle on the dance floor. Do not over think things.

Give it large and be happy then your dancing can not help but improve enormousley.

My view only pips, feel free to slap the sh1t out of me.

DTS XXX XXX

~Jo~
28th-January-2009, 07:19 PM
Thinking back to when I started MJ, I remember adding in stuff without even considering the lead :what: :blush:. It took me some time to realise the lead is the "frame", the resulting dance "the picture" and any embellishments are "elements of shading" and not always necessary for a pretty piece of art



Yeah I get the urge to do that sometimes. Sometimes you're dancing with someone (and this applies to guys and gals) who just isn't 'feeling' the music. I think instinctly, with some types of music and some beats 'workin it' just comes naturally. Sometimes you're with a partner who misses soo many oppurtunities to really rev the dancing up. I guess then, its just more about finding a lead/follow you're more in sync with than trying to do something about it (if you're a gal)?

If I were a man and my lady decided to start breaking off, I'd just have to make sure she didn't do it again :devil:. If she didn't like my style of dancing and my leading....(taking away am i pervy/jerky/bouncy/totallydull lol) then she could always say no to dancing with me...whaddya think?

zimbabwean
28th-January-2009, 07:26 PM
[quote

Key words here mate are.....Different interpretations.
Dont beat yourself up over who is right or wrong, everyone is right. Just dance and enjoy it, smile, sweat and flirt and the dance Oyster shall be yours mate. Dont think, react and enjoy, dance like you are naked in your bathroom, dance like you and your partner are the only people in the room.

DTS XXX XXX[/quote]
:yeah: Except for in my case i would skip the bathroom bit not a pretty site :naughty: i tried it and DTS please be careful when making suggestions like that you need to put a warning with them:lol:

dave the scaffolder
28th-January-2009, 07:29 PM
You are a very attractive man Daryl. Dont think I haven't noticed, because I have mate.

DTS XXX XXX

zimbabwean
28th-January-2009, 07:33 PM
You are a very attractive man Daryl. Dont think I haven't noticed, because I have mate.

DTS XXX XXX


Thank you for the kind Compliment am now :blush:

kps
28th-January-2009, 08:45 PM
One small point that seem's to have been missed here pips.

We are only SOCIAL DANCERS, we are not professional dancers. We do this for fun and enjoyment, start over thinking things and the enjoyment will fade.


:yeah:I couldn't agree more mate.



The natural or instinctive dancers, these know the moves but interprate them with their own style, flair and campness, these dancers make sh1t up as they go along, they love the connection and feel of the dance. They feel the music in the very marrow of their soul, unconventional and a little bit scary.

IMHO canp 2 are the wet knickers type of dances that leave you breathless and panting for more.


I love it when I'm dancing and the follow takes me out of my comfort zone, you have to just go with the flow and maybe do something a little spontaneous back. I think it takes us back to what you meant with your first point DTS, as those dances I spend most of the time laughing to myself and having the best time on the dance floor.

David Bailey
28th-January-2009, 09:28 PM
This is only my humble opinion but I have allways split dancing into 2 camps.

1 The technically expert dancers who learn the moves superbly and dance correctly, every dance is perfect technique and marvellous.

2 The natural or instinctive dancers, these know the moves but interprate them with their own style, flair and campness, these dancers make sh1t up as they go along, they love the connection and feel of the dance. They feel the music in the very marrow of their soul, unconventional and a little bit scary.
They're not mutually-exclusive groups; Viktor has technique, Amir has flair.

To me, technique allows you more freedom, not less - it expands your toolkit and makes whatever you do, better. It's not a coincidence that the superb dancers are usually the ones who work at it the most.

dave the scaffolder
29th-January-2009, 01:06 AM
They're not mutually-exclusive groups; Viktor has technique, Amir has flair.

To me, technique allows you more freedom, not less - it expands your toolkit and makes whatever you do, better. It's not a coincidence that the superb dancers are usually the ones who work at it the most.

I agree with you Dave, there are dancers who cross into both groups, however Viktor and Amir are both professional dancers, I thought we were talking about social dancers, ie me and thee my lover, Stokie and Martin etc.

Again I say there is no right and wrong only differences. There is no diffinitave truth to this question, IMHO.

It is only a hobby!

DTS XXX XXX

Whitebeard
29th-January-2009, 01:19 AM
........


It is only a hobby!

DTS XXX XXX

A local guy says no more than that.

And has an impressive dance studio just to prove it.

Gadget
29th-January-2009, 03:11 PM
Sorry - another spiel...

One must follow the rules until they are 2nd nature,
~
Then one fine day you have the rules and you want to experiment and step outside of the rules. However you are unable to do this at the start of dancing. When you reach this, rule breaking stage, then you develop your style and flair and individuality in your dance style. This stage is different for everybody~

Then there are us, the people who adapt, improvise and add flair, camp it up, we just immerse ourselves in the pursuit of non conformity in the dance world. Are we better than anybody else? I think not, we just see things a little different and find new and exciting variations to established moves, we change partners and generally have fun with the subtle changes in our style and dancing.
I understand where you are coming from: I used to dance this way my self (and have loads of fun in the process).
... BUT ...
What is happening is that you've learned enough to dance and to convey your intent to your partner. You're the matador; swirling the follower like a cape with flair and drama while the music pounds around you, trampling dust into the air at your feet. Impressive and fun. But ultimatly centred about you. When the follower plays, it's an extension of you and you adapt to it - but the focus switches to them. It's a solo dance with your partner as a flashy animated prop.
When the follower takes control, then they become the centre of the dance; most often because they are fed-up being a prop. (from my understanding anyway)

There is nothing wrong with dancing like this. It is fun and flamboyant. I still dance like this on occasion.

However, it is not the pinnacle of styling and dancing. If your partner is not of the same ilk, then it can be very intimidating and domineering. You end up a clown to the bull; waving to attract it's attention, then hiding behind some stock moves. I think that the dance can look and feel better if the focus is on you both as a couple rather than one. Especially for the less flamboyant and playful dancers.



But frankly, most of the followers who try this are rubbish at it - they do their thing, when and where they want, then they leave the leader to pick up the pieces. Which is disruptive and annoying to any leader, at any level. More experienced leaders can recover from it better, of course, as they'll usually have any number of get-out-of-jail movements they can use at any given time.

Both sabotage and hijack are wresting the lead away from the leader. So at the very least, if you sabotage / hijack, you need to clearly transfer the lead back.
The skill of a proper sabotage (where the follower 'breaks' a move and does their own variation) lies with the timeing: the follower has to [1st] recognise the movement and the move coming up, then [2nd] time the interuption to let the lead know and safely slip into their own pattern.
From a personal point of view, I find very (very) few followers can do this to be because I'm not very predictable in my dancing :whistle: Newly advancing dancers are prime targets for followers because they do the same thing again and again, the followers can get frustrated with the leads ignoring breaks and accents in the music and it's relativly easy to take things into their own hands.

Unfortunaly, these are the leads that are likley to panic and get all confused with the follower not doing as they are leading.

If followers manage a sabotage and then want to hi-jack, there are a couple of problems:

- they now assume the dominant role within the dance. If there was a good connection between dancers with light, responsive leads & follows, then the follower should now be able to assume the lead with a fairly subtle dominance: they need to initialy apply the same level of dominance over the lead as the lead is showing to them. This becomes a problem when the lead is very dominant - the follow has to not only neutralise the lead with the sabotage, they now have to over-power it with the hi-jack. Very few followers can do this to a 'strong' lead. Those that can are normally not that good at leading and will be overbearing, "rough" and not to subtle about the lead.

- the second problem is that they are trying to lead a lead. ie not a follower. ie someone who has an idea of how to follow from the wrong end. The lead may be able to spin, turn & lead well, but following is a completley different mind-set. You've just de-railed their lead and now you expect them to follow.

As a result, good strong leads (like david) wil seldom experiance a follower who can sabotage them and turn it into a hijack with any sucess. Those that could would have to be good leads in their own right. (as well as good followers)



Learning? I have seen a few workshops and classes in it. I think that every dip and drop should be taught with a sabotage option so that followers can take it uppon themselves to abort.

I can think on half a dozen followers who are experianced and good enough to do this with confidence: the ones who have "sucessfully" managed this with me are Caro, Freya, Lisa and Lorna. (Lorna is one of the teachers who I've seen teaching hi-jack classes) Drathzel and Emma are also rather good at it (since we seem to be name dropping ;))



One small point that seem's to have been missed here pips.

We are only SOCIAL DANCERS, we are not professional dancers. We do this for fun and enjoyment, start over thinking things and the enjoyment will fade.

~
This is only my humble opinion but I have allways split dancing into 2 camps.

1 The technically expert dancers who learn the moves superbly and dance correctly, every dance is perfect technique and marvellous.

2 The natural or instinctive dancers, these know the moves but interprate them with their own style, flair and campness, these dancers make sh1t up as they go along, they love the connection and feel of the dance. They feel the music in the very marrow of their soul, unconventional and a little bit scary.

:slap: ;)
I have always split dancing into 2 camps: Those that dance, and those that don't.
To draw a line between technically good and instinctively good / flamboyant is naive I think. I used to flail and throw my self & partner about the floor with no regard for technique, 'proper' style, or any of that other "technical stuff that just gets in the way of dancing."

Here's a little glimpse into my progress: Improving my dancing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3116)

I don't think you can have elements of technical without styling and I don't think that you can have elements of styling without technique.

dave the scaffolder
29th-January-2009, 03:32 PM
That is all very well put there my lovely, however we are not talking about every dance here, being sabotaged is an occasional thing that I a priveleged with now and again. Last time I was sabotaged was at Daventry by Witty Bird and Caz, months ago that was.

I trynot to throw and flail my dance partners about with no regard for other dancers, I am a Taxi dancer who actually discusses floorcraft and dance etiquette with my refresher classes. I have seen people fall out in the dance world because a foot was trodden on and no apology given, I teach our new dancers that a mere "sorry mate/love", goes a long long way. I am constantly instilling manners and good behaviour in these classes and we all have a good time. I try to go above and beyond the set format for Taxiing to help people become better and well mannered dancers. Sorry I am in a right fluffy bunny mood today, not like me at all really.:doh:

I am a large dancer, no doubt about that, but remember one thing my lover... I am quite tallish with long lovely blonde hair, and I am thinking of growing a moustache.:wink:

DTS XXX XXX

Gadget
29th-January-2009, 06:49 PM
I trynot to throw and flail my dance partners about with no regard for other dancers, I am a Taxi dancer who actually discusses floorcraft and dance etiquette with my refresher classes.Sorry if it was taken that way: at that time I was even more concious of floor-craft and regard for others because i was a bit more flamboyant than most.
(...Of course the venue was packed as well - had to develop some "combat dancing" skills and use some of the techniques learned from moshing :what: )

Now I have a bit more control to my flailings and I look a little less like a Jim Henson puppet than I did. (*)

What I was trying to say is that it's fun, but don't think that dancing any other way or with any more technique is any less fun or those who are not as dramatic in their dancing contain any less musicality. :D

(* - edit: erm... not suggesting you look like one; just that I did :sick: )

David Bailey
29th-January-2009, 08:37 PM
I like passion in dancing - anmd to counteract my previous quote, here's another one from Martha Graham:
"Great dancers are not great because of their technique; they're great because of their passion."

But "passion" doesn't have to equate to exhibitionism. A lot of the time, it's internal, or at least it's directed only towards your partner.

There was a point to this post somewhere, I seem to have lost it.... :blush:

dave the scaffolder
29th-January-2009, 08:49 PM
I like passion in dancing - anmd to counteract my previous quote, here's another one from Martha Graham:
"Great dancers are not great because of their technique; they're great because of their passion."

But "passion" doesn't have to equate to exhibitionism. A lot of the time, it's internal, or at least it's directed only towards your partner.

There was a point to this post somewhere, I seem to have lost it.... :blush:

Me and you, you gorgous man you, can have a dance next time we meet. I will show you passion my little love bunny:love:. Come to the dark side oh Masterfull one:yum:.

Everybody is right because every dance is different. I do not leap around like a banshie on speed all of the time, but I do every now and then. I do try to dance technicaly perfect sometimes. Everything is adapted to your partner, the music and how you both feel at that time.

Personally I think we have kicked the sh1t right out of this one.

We are all different.

DTS XXX XX

straycat
29th-January-2009, 09:02 PM
We are all different.

I'm not. :wink:

dave the scaffolder
29th-January-2009, 10:08 PM
Stone me this is getting surreal.

DTS XXX XXX

kps
29th-January-2009, 10:27 PM
Stone me this is getting surreal.

DTS XXX XXX


Why did you say Jehovah?

Ouch... who threw that???

StokeBloke
29th-January-2009, 11:29 PM
Why did you say Jehovah?

Ouch... who threw that???
A word to the wise - don't mess with a bowman :wink:

kps
29th-January-2009, 11:41 PM
A word to the wise - don't mess with a bowman :wink:


Why do they Sabotage???:wink:

straycat
30th-January-2009, 12:28 AM
Why do they Sabotage???:wink:

To get to the other side? :waycool:

kps
30th-January-2009, 12:37 AM
this is getting surreal.

DTS XXX XXX

:yeah:

martingold
30th-January-2009, 09:22 AM
A word to the wise - don't mess with a bowman :wink:
or bow woman you might not have a wardrobe left

straycat
30th-January-2009, 09:44 AM
Here's a question: is it really going off-topic if you sabotage (or hijack) a thread that's about sabotage (or hijack)?

martingold
30th-January-2009, 10:03 AM
Here's a question: is it really going off-topic if you sabotage (or hijack) a thread that's about sabotage (or hijack)?
no i think thats just playing

Astro
31st-January-2009, 03:09 PM
Dances come into being organically from the grass roots.

The Professional Dancing World then tames them and modifies them.

With technical rules in place, dance competitions take place and dancers compete.

The 1940's saw the Jitterbug and the Boogie Woogie sweep the dancefloors. These were organic dances. The proffesionals modified them to become Jive. Jive has become a Ballroom Dance with competitions.

How did Modern Jive grow out of Jive?
Also MJ today has evolved from MJ in the 1990's going by old videos.


The world of Ballroom is a small village according to Len Goodman. It is consticted with rules and was "dying".

Luckily SCD has brought a revival to the Ballroom world.


Social dance is different from Professional Dance.

For instance the Cha Cha Cha is derived from The Mambo.
It is an easier version of The Mambo and was adapted from The Mambo because The Mambo was too difficult to master for social dancers.


My point is that having a "tunnel vision" about what "can and can't" happen on the dancefloor will stop MJ evolving.

Once something stops growing, it dies.

robd
1st-February-2009, 04:33 PM
My point is that having a "tunnel vision" about what "can and can't" happen on the dancefloor will stop MJ evolving.

Point of order.

I don't think DB or I (who are two of the people who've said they prefer not to be sabotaged (badly)) are saying it "can or can't" happen. We are saying what our preferences are, simply that, no more nor less. If I don't like the way you (followers generally not you specifically Astro) dance with me I am unlikely to want to dance with you again but that's going to have no bearing at all on if, how or when MJ evolves.

Gadget
1st-February-2009, 05:24 PM
I want to know why we can't agree about very basic stuff. - saying it's all about individuality is sweeping it under the carpet.What basic stuff?

...and anyway, we can't even agree how to step back, when to step back or even on which foot to step back on. How more simple can you get? :confused:
{do a search for "footwork" :whistle:}

And we don't dance on carpet - it burns the balls of your feet when you try and spin. :innocent::na:


Dancing is about two individuals trying to get along. Not two individuals doing exactly what they want. This requires consensus.
Not quite. Partner dancing is about lead & follow. They don't have to get along, just understand each other.
Two individuals doing what they want? No it's a lead doing what they want and a follower trying to understand what this is. It's kind of like the man/woman relationship... but in reverse. :wink:

Sabotage happens normally because the follower wants to do their own thing and have the lead try and understand what this is.

The follower is placing their trust into the lead's hands that they won't be damaged. The lead is taking responsibility for the follower's movements and welfare. If the follower does their own thing out with the lead's instructions, then they are then taking the trust out of the the partnership and the follower is responsible for their own welfare. They are no longer following. In order to make the partnership work, the lead has to adapt and no longer be the 'lead'. This can cause confusion, pain, fear, earthquakes and natural disasters.
But this can also cause fun, expressiveness, inspirational dancing and rainbows.

If someone does not know how to follow a lead, then the lead can compensate and adapt to it. If someone chooses not to follow a lead, then the lead can compensate and adapt to it. The only difference is the second one knows what they are doing. For the lead, why should either one make any difference?

jive-vee
1st-February-2009, 07:15 PM
Dancing is about two individuals trying to get along. Not two individuals doing exactly what they want.

I think this (kind of) sums up my attitude to this thread. I don't think I sabotage people when I dance with them, I try the best that I can to follow them - if I can add something to the dance or express something I hear in the music then all the better.

I think of it as a "lead" dance not a "controlled" dance. I don't assume when someone asks me to dance that all the ideas will come from them - but it will definitely start with the leader and grow from there. How far it grows depends on how well you connect, the music etc. If I dance with a beginner then I pretty much just follow or try to add any little bits of styling in that won't throw them off their lead. If I'm dancing with someone more experienced or someone I'm used to dancing with then anything goes as far as I'm concerned. I follow their lead and add what I can without disrupting the lead, but I'll also add any little playful bits to express what I hear or want to highlight in the music but hopefully making it clear when I'm starting to play and when I've finished.

If I was expected to just follow everything that was lead and not add anything of me into the dance then I think I would get very bored. I don't want to just dance moves to music; I want to dance to the music that is playing.

If any of this makes sense then great, if not feel free to ignore :D:flower:

David Bailey
1st-February-2009, 08:26 PM
Point of order.
I can just see you standing up in a committee meeting, with a notebook in hand ... :na:


I don't think DB or I (who are two of the people who've said they prefer not to be sabotaged (badly)) are saying it "can or can't" happen. We are saying what our preferences are, simply that, no more nor less.
I have personal preferences against it, but then, I'm not a big fan of lots of things - multiple spinning, drops, aerials, men in weird sleeveless T-shirts...

Howwever, I also have objective, err, objections - simply put, it's hard, and most people do indeed do it badly.

So yes, if a follower were to try to consistently sabotage me, I probably wouldn't go out of my way to ask them to dance. But it's a hypothetical - followers don't sabotage me. And I've been hijacked about once since I re-started dancing MJ (call it 4-5 years), so it's not like a major aggravation for me.

Twirlie Bird
1st-February-2009, 11:52 PM
I like passion in dancing - anmd to counteract my previous quote, here's another one from Martha Graham:
"Great dancers are not great because of their technique; they're great because of their passion."



This is so true. The best dances that I have ever had have been with people who have real passion for their dance. :awe:

It's also a reason that weekenders tend to be so amazing. People have had to make a real effort to attend them (especially in winter) and they have done so because of their love for dance.

Yep passion. I am with you all the way on that one DB :D

jim
22nd-February-2009, 10:20 PM
Sabotage is like marmite some love it, some hate it.

So do you think that lessons involving sabotage should carry a warning? In the same way that lessons involving drops do.

I.e. Ladies; some men hate sabotage so be careful who you do it to.

Or maybe a slogan like 'always ask before you sabotage'. (This is just about as practical as asking before you do a drop, but at least it gets you thinking).

Or maybe “ladies ‘no means no!’” :really: :lol:

This is for the good of the leads who don't like sabotage and the good of the followers who are about to meet the leads who don't like sabotage.


Just a thought ....

Gadget
23rd-February-2009, 01:10 AM
So do you think that lessons involving sabotage should carry a warning? In the same way that lessons involving drops do.
Why? Is it dangerous?


I.e. Ladies; some men hate sabotage so be careful who you do it to. Hate? That's a bit strong. Everyone (no exceptions) dislikes to be led badly. Just think on all those followers being led by beginner leads.

I would encourage classes so that followers can learn how to do it better and leads can learn how to react.

Agente Secreto
23rd-February-2009, 09:54 AM
Sabotage is like marmite some love it, some hate it.

So do you think that lessons involving sabotage should carry a warning? In the same way that lessons involving drops do.

I.e. Ladies; some men hate sabotage so be careful who you do it to.

Or maybe a slogan like 'always ask before you sabotage'. (This is just about as practical as asking before you do a drop, but at least it gets you thinking).

Or maybe “ladies ‘no means no!’” :really: :lol:

This is for the good of the leads who don't like sabotage and the good of the followers who are about to meet the leads who don't like sabotage.


Just a thought ....


Jim, I think that its important to retain some perspective on this issue. Sabotage (sounds far more destructive than it is) is actually quite rare in my experience. I typically get sabotaged by follows who either: 1) know me well and are sure that I'll respond positively to a little bit of playful behaviour on their part, or 2) don't know me but have seen in our dance together that they are 'enabled' to put their own interpretation into the dance and might choose to do this by the occasional act of sabotage. I think that there is an option 3) which is taken by those follows who can dance well but feel constrained by 'authoritarian' leads - where the view might be 'let's shake this dictator up', however since I don't practice the Josef Stalin approach to leading I've never experienced this.

I'm also a bit worried that you think it impractical to ask before you dip or drop. Surely it is very easy to ask a lady as you walk onto the floor together if she is content to do dips and drops before you start dancing. You should know if these are part of your repertoire and if so you need to get clearance to use them up front. Like Gadget I don't see the need for the lady to ask for permission to sabotage since none of the sabotage moves that have been done on me have ever placed me at any risk, unlike dip and drops for the follows of course.


Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

jim
23rd-February-2009, 06:36 PM
I'm also a bit worried that you think it impractical to ask before you dip or drop. Surely it is very easy to ask a lady as you walk onto the floor together if she is content to do dips and drops before you start dancing.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

I don't do many dips so it seems a bit impratical to ask eveyone regardless of wether I'm going to do one or not.

When I do do them, I'm hopfully reacting to the music. -So if I stop and 'ask are drops ok', the part of music I wanted to do a drop to has already gone. So to me It seems a bit impractical.

Also I don't know many drops. I personally don't know any really 'risky' drops if you know what I mean.

I would ask if I actually new any advanced or difficult drops or dips.:flower:

jim
23rd-February-2009, 06:42 PM
Why? Is it dangerous?

Hate? That's a bit strong. Everyone (no exceptions) dislikes to be led badly. Just think on all those followers being led by beginner leads.

I would encourage classes so that followers can learn how to do it better and leads can learn how to react.

Actually I think you'll find that some leads 'Hate' being led wether it's done well or not.

Although I do agree with your second statement:flower:.


Remeber I'm saying this for normal dancers, not just highly advanced forum types who can lead and follow and all kinds of other things.

People generally agree that you shouldn't sabatoge beginners. So there's another possible warning. - 'don't sabotage beginners'

StokeBloke
23rd-February-2009, 06:47 PM
Actually I think you'll find that some leads 'Hate' being led wether it's done well or not.

Although I do agree with your second statement:flower:.
Perhaps these leads might look into Tango, I understand it is completely male led. The only input that the follow gets is the choice of her shoes :wink:

martingold
23rd-February-2009, 06:57 PM
Perhaps these leads might look into Tango, I understand it is completely male led. The only input that the follow gets is the choice of her shoes :wink:
i think most of them do :rofl:

jivecat
23rd-February-2009, 11:05 PM
Perhaps these leads might look into Tango, I understand it is completely male led. The only input that the follow gets is the choice of her shoes :wink:

http://http://www.neotangoshoes-net.com/mag/en/product-168171.htm


Clearly, frustration among the tanguera community is reaching flashpoint.:grin:


Funnily enough, exactly the same arguments about strict following v interactive following rage in tango as well. The same complaints that leaders get their lead disrupted and ruined by naff, unled improvisation by followers with poor technique. The leaders that aren't moaning about this are complaining about women that are like pale, submissive ghosts in their arms.

I had a really weird experience once with a tango teacher (one of the best leads I have ever danced tango with) who made his lead react to whatever I did. So far from being dictated to it was like I was leading except, I definitely wasn't.

The middle ground in tango seems to be that the lady can, and should, play, around with decorations or whatever as long as it fits into the timing of the leader's moves without hindering him in any way. Blocking moves done by the lady with her feet might also be alright in extreme moderation, among consenting partners. The lady can also stretch or accelerate the timing of a move by deciding the moment when she consents to place her foot and commit her weight to it.

ant
24th-February-2009, 03:29 AM
I had a really weird experience once with a tango teacher (one of the best leads I have ever danced tango with) who made his lead react to whatever I did. So far from being dictated to it was like I was leading except, I definitely wasn't.


Ruth the organiser at the Mango was expalining the various levels of lead now being developed and explored so that the follower no longer feels she is being made to to do a move but has far more choice within the dance.

The lead levels she gave going from highest to lowest level of lead, were:

1 Subliminal
2 Chest directed
3 Shoulder to arm movement (with various levels of pressure)
4 Arm movement

In 1 and 2 and to a certain extent 3 (greater use of this level would preclude this type of lead) the leader would use the arms as receptors of information in order that he could find out what type of moves the follower prefered and steer the dance accordingly.

Hence the dance becomes a far more negotiated arrangement and the lead and follow labels less obvious. Greater emphesis is then put on awareness and support for the person on the less stable axis and this could be the theoretical lead or follow.

In addition many of the lead signals become an invitation or suggestion to go into a move and the follower could react in a number of different ways with the leader then re-reacting? accordingly.

The above certainly has many of the characteristics of sabotage and when done in the way descibed above IMO becomes the most enjoyable experience when dancing MJ.

firefly
24th-February-2009, 12:23 PM
I'm also a bit worried that you think it impractical to ask before you dip or drop.



I don't do many dips so it seems a bit impratical to ask eveyone regardless of wether I'm going to do one or not.

When I do do them, I'm hopfully reacting to the music. -So if I stop and 'ask are drops ok', the part of music I wanted to do a drop to has already gone. So to me It seems a bit impractical.

Also I don't know many drops. I personally don't know any really 'risky' drops if you know what I mean.

I would ask if I actually new any advanced or difficult drops or dips.:flower:


Just to pick up on this point jim, as a follower I would much prefer my partner to ask me whether I'm happy to do dips and drops; if not at the start then at some point during the dance.

I know of more than one follower who has had an old injury aggravated by a dip or drop led unexpectedly, and not necessarily one of the 'risky' drops; such actions can have unintended consequences. I don't want to overstate the case, but continuing pain or discomfort, time away from dancing and even time off work are not unknown.

Please consider, it doesn't take very much to extend a little consideration to your partner :flower:

Astro
24th-February-2009, 12:46 PM
Just to pick up on this point jim, as a follower I would much prefer my partner to ask me whether I'm happy to do dips and drops; if not at the start then at some point during the dance.

I know of more than one follower who has had an old injury aggravated by a dip or drop led unexpectedly, and not necessarily one of the 'risky' drops; such actions can have unintended consequences. I don't want to overstate the case, but continuing pain or discomfort, time away from dancing and even time off work are not unknown.

Please consider, it doesn't take very much to extend a little consideration to your partner :flower:
:yeah: The leads can also use the hesitation, which is non verbal.

The lead gets the follower into position for a drop/dip, but then hesitates (pauses). This is a non verbal question.

The follower can then decide whether to sabotage or continue happily.

Agente Secreto
24th-February-2009, 01:39 PM
Just to pick up on this point jim, as a follower I would much prefer my partner to ask me whether I'm happy to do dips and drops; if not at the start then at some point during the dance.


:yeah:
I try to make sure that this is one of the very first things I do when I dance with someone (new or familiar). Probably covered to death in other threads but it takes 20 seconds at the start of the dance to establish if the lady wants to dip/drop or not. If you don't ask and get a positive response you should not assume that you can just throw your partner into something regardless of how the music or rhythm takes you.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

Gadget
24th-February-2009, 03:51 PM
...If you don't ask and get a positive response you should not assume that you can just throw your partner into something regardless of how the music or rhythm takes you.
Regardless of the music, you should never be throwing your partner into any move - beginner moves or any others.

The more domineering, controlling and 'firm' the lead, then the more vital it is for them to ask the follower about dips and drops: It is unlikely that these stronger leads will be listening to the follower close enough to detect any hesitation or signals that could be construed as "sabotage" ~ and even if the signals of "oh ****, I don't want to be doing this..." are picked up on by the lead, then {assuming they are of the 'hate' attitude to sabotage} it is quite conceivable that the lead ignores them and throws the follower into the move.

Note that the follower may not want to do moves where the arms are raised too much or they have to spin too much - it's not only dips & drops that can be uncomfortable for the follower and their ability to sabotage can be self-preservation. Blocking this opportunity for them does not make you a good lead, no matter how well you do it or how successfully put them into/through a move.

jim
24th-February-2009, 06:27 PM
Perhaps these leads might look into Tango, I understand it is completely male led. The only input that the follow gets is the choice of her shoes :wink:


It has been suggested before:wink:.

Agente Secreto
24th-February-2009, 07:18 PM
Regardless of the music, you should never be throwing your partner into any move - beginner moves or any others.

The more domineering, controlling and 'firm' the lead, then the more vital it is for them to ask the follower about dips and drops: It is unlikely that these stronger leads will be listening to the follower close enough to detect any hesitation or signals that could be construed as "sabotage" ~ and even if the signals of "oh ****, I don't want to be doing this..." are picked up on by the lead, then {assuming they are of the 'hate' attitude to sabotage} it is quite conceivable that the lead ignores them and throws the follower into the move.

Note that the follower may not want to do moves where the arms are raised too much or they have to spin too much - it's not only dips & drops that can be uncomfortable for the follower and their ability to sabotage can be self-preservation. Blocking this opportunity for them does not make you a good lead, no matter how well you do it or how successfully put them into/through a move.

Gadget, don't disagree with your post but lets get things in perspective. Seeking explicit permission for dips and drops is a specific case - where it's not simply that the lead might do something the follow does not prefer, they could actually end up doing something that puts them in danger of life or limb. I always seek this permission, however, I have yet to ask a follow as I go onto the floor if she's OK if I spin her:waycool:. I definitely don't believe it is possible for a lead to tease out of the follow if she's unable to do 'normal moves' - I'd expect to be told as has happaned on a couple of occasions with ladies who have weak ankles, or injured arms.

I do accept that self-preservation might be one reason for sabotage, however, in the case of the 'stronger' (or is it deaf, dumb and blind) leads you talk about above it is highly unlikely that even the most blatant message will persuade them they are doing any wrong. You just have to look at the floor on some normal class nights - men wrestling women into moves regardless.:eek:

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

HelenB
24th-February-2009, 07:37 PM
Seeking explicit permission for dips and drops is a specific case - where it's not simply that the lead might do something the follow does not prefer, they could actually end up doing something that puts them in danger of life or limb. I always seek this permission, however, I have yet to ask a follow as I go onto the floor if she's OK if I spin her:waycool:. I definitely don't believe it is possible for a lead to tease out of the follow if she's unable to do 'normal moves' - I'd expect to be told as has happaned on a couple of occasions with ladies who have weak ankles, or injured arms.

I prefer to be asked about dips and drops but have had them performed (oo-er) on me without asking. I suppose what I'm saying is that I feel that I'm able to sabotage for safety should be.

Up to recently, I've been happy should this happen though I do tend to make a cheeky comment if they haven't asked. That's just me :innocent: (my way of making them aware that some people aren't OK with not being asked)

With regards to your other point AS, at Eclipse I wasn't able to dance much and those dances I did have, had to be gentle. I didn't expect people to sense this so danced only with those leads I knew and, explained the situation as we made our way onto the dancefloor. It was a bit weird reading the rule book and I felt that I kinda took something away from the dance :what:

I think from a leader's perspective, this can also be quite limiting. Sometimes when someone says you can't do something, it's the only thing you can think of doing :wink: (Don't think about pink elephants...)


I do accept that self-preservation might be one reason for sabotage, however, in the case of the 'stronger' (or is it deaf, dumb and blind) leads you talk about above it is highly unlikely that even the most blatant message will persuade them they are doing any wrong. You just have to look at the floor on some normal class nights - men wrestling women into moves regardless.:eek:

:yeah: I can think of a few though to be honest I don't tend to see them at weekenders and tend to avoid at other times ...

I bet you're all thinking pink elephants...

ant
24th-February-2009, 08:02 PM
:flower:
With regards to your other point AS, at Eclipse I wasn't able to dance much and those dances I did have, had to be gentle. I didn't expect people to sense this so danced only with those leads I knew and, explained the situation as we made our way onto the dancefloor. It was a bit weird reading the rule book and I felt that I kinda took something away from the dance :what:


Don't think that way when you are recovering from an operation.

Personally I find it a big challenge to give a person a good dance when the are recovering from an injury or operation but at the same time be ultra gentle and 100% careful about their condition.

And yes you should tell people and as far as I am concerned it does not take anything away from the dance, it does not feel like you are having the rule book read and if anything the reverse is true as it creates an immediate connection that would otherwise take longer to be there.

We never got that dance at Eclipse but next time we are together recovered or not I would still love to have a dance with you. :flower:

jim
24th-February-2009, 08:03 PM
I know of more than one follower who has had an old injury aggravated by a dip or drop led unexpectedly, and not necessarily one of the 'risky' drops; such actions can have unintended consequences. I don't want to overstate the case, but continuing pain or discomfort, time away from dancing and even time off work are not unknown.

Please consider, it doesn't take very much to extend a little consideration to your partner



I try to make sure that this is one of the very first things I do when I dance with someone (new or familiar). Probably covered to death in other threads but it takes 20 seconds at the start of the dance to establish if the lady wants to dip/drop or not.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance


I understand your point, but what is the difference between followers telling every lead they met that they don't like drops or every lead asking evey follower they if they're are happy with drops? – none it’s just a question of who does it.

If you’re not careful you end up with this wired conversation when you first meet a follower that goes something like this;

Hi, How long have you been dancing?
Do you do west coast?
Do you get dizzy when you spin?
Are you comfortable with dancing close?
Do you like drops?
Have you done Latin before
Have you done blues?
The list could go on……

And once the lady has finished answering all those questions there’ll be one thing she didn’t tell you.

I happy with drops; if I trust the lead.
I happy dancing close; if I like the lead.
I can dance to anything if; it’s led properly.

None of which she can answer until she’s actually danced with you.

And then you have to remember her preferances! From all the other women you’ve asked. – so basically I think it’s impratical.

I tend to weight up the follower and make and educated guess. The same way I do when I’m thinking about a close move, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out if she likes space, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out how long she’s been dancing. :flower:

HelenB
24th-February-2009, 09:15 PM
I tend to weigh up the follower and make an educated guess. The same way I do when I’m thinking about a close move, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out if she likes space, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out how long she’s been dancing. :flower:

I think we all do that to some extent. I know I certainly do (normally on the close moves :innocent:)

It's even nicer then when you make a surprising discovery and you have a great dance :D

Agente Secreto
24th-February-2009, 09:40 PM
I understand your point, but what is the difference between followers telling every lead they met that they don't like drops or every lead asking evey follower they if they're are happy with drops? – none it’s just a question of who does it.

If you’re not careful you end up with this wired conversation when you first meet a follower that goes something like this;

Hi, How long have you been dancing?
Do you do west coast?
Do you get dizzy when you spin?
Are you comfortable with dancing close?
Do you like drops?
Have you done Latin before
Have you done blues?
The list could go on……

And once the lady has finished answering all those questions there’ll be one thing she didn’t tell you.

I happy with drops; if I trust the lead.
I happy dancing close; if I like the lead.
I can dance to anything if; it’s led properly.

None of which she can answer until she’s actually danced with you.

And then you have to remember her preferances! From all the other women you’ve asked. – so basically I think it’s impratical.

I tend to weight up the follower and make and educated guess. The same way I do when I’m thinking about a close move, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out if she likes space, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out how long she’s been dancing. :flower:

Jim, now you're being silly. We all size our partners up as we dance, and it is about educated guesses without a doubt in normal dancing but dips and drops are different. As I dance I too will get a feeling about whether the lady likes eye contact, or being in close or any number of things but the only way you'll know if her back for instance can take a drop is when she screams in agony as you try one - a bit cavalier in my book.

Every single class I've been to for dips and drops has stressed that the first rule of action for the man is to ask - every woman and every dance. See Item 1 on the guys list on the following.

http://www.peterphillips.dj/dosdont.html

Now, I have often had ladies who have seen me dipping others when sitting down at the side and then when we dance open up by saying that they do not like/cannot do such moves. But unless this happens it is the lead's job to ask. And as to trusting the lead and not being able to know this until you've danced together, I rarely do dips and drops on the first dance with a new partner anyway.

I can feel a new thread coming. Been a long time I think since we explored dips 'n drops etiquette.


Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

MartinHarper
24th-February-2009, 10:29 PM
See Item 1 on the guys list on the following.

http://www.peterphillips.dj/dosdont.html

The item you mention says: "Always Ask your partner if they're ok with drops, seducers, lifts etc". You will notice that simple low-risk dips are not on that list. I suspect that the dips that Jim knows fall into that category.

Agente Secreto
24th-February-2009, 10:57 PM
The item you mention says: "Always Ask your partner if they're ok with drops, seducers, lifts etc". You will notice that simple low-risk dips are not on that list. I suspect that the dips that Jim knows fall into that category.

Possibly, but anything that get the follow leaning to the side or back could cause damage, so that could include dips. Its just safer to ask, and in the Peter Philips dvds he makes this point very clearly...........

I've posted another thread to get some idea for how common it is that leads ask, or follows expect to be asked.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

jivecat
24th-February-2009, 11:06 PM
Possibly, but anything that get the follow leaning to the side or back could cause damage, so that could include dips. Its just safer to ask, and in the Peter Philips dvds he makes this point very clearly...........

I've posted another thread to get some idea for how common it is that leads ask, or follows expect to be asked.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

I haven't looked at the thread yet but my feeling is that it has become a lot more common to get asked over the last few years, presumably after safety concerns started to get aired in workshops.