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Easily Led
31st-December-2008, 09:51 AM
I would like to be able to do this drop as elegantly as possible and without crashing to the floor. Do I need to be able to hold my own weight all the time and to be able to bring myself back up with minimum effort on my partner's part or is this hold only for the strong partner or the lightweight follower? Are there any exercises you can do to be stronger at holding your weight when near the ground? Are there any visual examples anywhere that take you through the process step by step?

Easily Led
31st-December-2008, 10:39 AM
Thanks to the anonymous person who sent me a web link.:flower:

emmylou25
31st-December-2008, 10:44 AM
I'm not the lightest of people but I do the ballroom drop with one or 2 guys who aren't necessarily massively strong but who have a specific technique they've been taught that works.

I always keep one leg bent the same I would in any other lean/seducer so have my own weight. Some leaders bring me straight up from that one leg bent/one leg straight position (faster through momentum), while others who take more time over it and maybe have less strength, I'll bend my other leg to help myself up if I feel it's needed.

Having said that, there are people I won't do the drop with (or usually any others). I always make sure we've got a good butterfly (interlocked thumb) clasp with both hands, and I find I have to be in the right position for the leader to step to the left to ensure I drop.

The best thing I found is getting someone to talk you through it properly. Firstly one of the leaders talked me through it (ie lady keeping arms straight), but since then I've also been to several classes/workshops that have included it. The really good workshop I did told the leaders to move their right arm down their left as they lowered the women which worked really well, but in other classes at weekenders they've not been specific about this which isn't as consistent.

In terms of exercises - if you've got strong thighs it'll help. Squats or lunges are probably the best to build strength up on these, I think - but am sure someone else will give advice on this who knows more on fitness.

Good luck with it.

martingold
31st-December-2008, 12:13 PM
Having said that, there are people I won't do the drop with (or usually any others). I always make sure we've got a good butterfly (interlocked thumb) clasp with both hands, and I find I have to be in the right position for the leader to step to the left to ensure I drop.


when i was taught this i was shown that the lead has to be in the "A" frame position and lower his hands straight down which how i always lead it . This gives me a firm base to work from and doesn't put me or my follow of balance
I find i can do this with any follow (quite a few on here will testement to that lol)
I will also always test the water so to speak by feeling the follows weight as she goes down if i i feel she doesnt want to go any further i only drop her to the position she is comfortable with
The only time that this didnt work as a test was with drathzel who takes her entire weight all the way to the floor Ive no idea how she manages that as she is the only person i have ever danced with that does

Batgirl
31st-December-2008, 12:19 PM
when i was taught this i was shown that the lead has to be in the "A" frame position and lower his hands straight down which how i always lead it . This gives me a firm base to work from and doesn't put me or my follow of balance
I find i can do this with any follow (quite a few on here will testement to that lol)


:yeah:
Martin does beautiful ballroom drops - really controlled and safe.
I (as you know) am only a size 10 in my imagination and worry about drops that I cannot control myself but Martins method has loads of control on the way down and up!:respect:

Rachel
xxx

TheTramp
31st-December-2008, 12:20 PM
Personally, if you are wanting to do dips, or drops, I'd advise going and finding a workshop in your area, run by someone who knows what they are doing, and learning to do things properly :)

If there's no workshops, maybe you could find a decent teacher, and get a private lesson off them.

There's nothing I hate seeing more on the dancefloor, than dips and drops done badly, where there's a risk of either person getting injured. Well, okie, maybe there are things that I hate more, but that's right up there with them!

martingold
31st-December-2008, 12:21 PM
:yeah:
Martin does beautiful ballroom drops - really controlled and safe.
I (as you know) am only a size 10 in my imagination and worry about drops that I cannot control myself but Martins method has loads of control on the way down and up!:respect:

Rachel
xxx
awwwwwww ta rachel you do a beautiful size 10 ballroom drop for me all the time

martingold
31st-December-2008, 12:24 PM
Personally, if you are wanting to do dips, or drops, I'd advise going and finding a workshop in your area, run by someone who knows what they are doing, and learning to do things properly :)

If there's no workshops, maybe you could find a decent teacher, and get a private lesson off them.

There's nothing I hate seeing more on the dancefloor, than dips and drops done badly, where there's a risk of either person getting injured. Well, okie, maybe there are things that I hate more, but that's right up there with them!
:yeah:
I couldnt agree more i think these drops should never be taught in an open class situation
I did two workshops first one to learn the basics ie how to stand and hold yourself when doing drops. The second taught all sorts of different drops

I will only do them if i feel confident about my ability to lead them and to get out of trouble if something goes wrong

emmylou25
31st-December-2008, 01:04 PM
I did two workshops first one to learn the basics ie how to stand and hold yourself when doing drops. The second taught all sorts of different drops



There should definitely be more of these workshops around. There are still too many weak dancers who think they're really steady doing drops, who don't check with the followers first, then look at me like I'm wrong for refusing to do the drop/lean etc. Even when I explain I only do them with people I've danced a lot with before or people that I'm really sure about following their lead (I try to be polite, but sometimes it doesn't work when I say no drops but then they still lead them!)

martingold
31st-December-2008, 01:24 PM
There should definitely be more of these workshops around. There are still too many weak dancers who think they're really steady doing drops, who don't check with the followers first, then look at me like I'm wrong for refusing to do the drop/lean etc. Even when I explain I only do them with people I've danced a lot with before or people that I'm really sure about following their lead (I try to be polite, but sometimes it doesn't work when I say no drops but then they still lead them!)
why do some people have to do that to follows
When i am going to do a drop i will either ask before leading it (it doesnt take much to say "do you do drops") or start the lead then if the follow either doesnt take it up or trys and obviously doesnt know what i am doing i will convert the lead into something else perhaps telling the follow that i am unwilling to put either one of us at risk
Thing is this whole dance malarky is about two people having fun on the dance floor its not about the people on the outside watching i mean we are not in competition with each other we are just dancing:banghead:

tsh
31st-December-2008, 01:30 PM
Sara and Tor did a great drops workshop earlier in the year, spent all afternoon working on just a few drops, mainly looking at technique. By the end of the afternoon, I could just about do a ballroom drop with all the followers there - not sure it was gracefull, but it worked (and I'm someone who sits behind a desk all day).
This was one instance where having a group to rotate made a big difference, practicing with different people made it easier to find what works best - I don't think there are really any quick tips to make the harder drops easy (a 6 stone follower can probably make a ballroom drop difficult for me).

Sean

Yliander
31st-December-2008, 01:35 PM
I always keep one leg bent the same I would in any other lean/seducer so have my own weight. Some leaders bring me straight up from that one leg bent/one leg straight position (faster through momentum), while others who take more time over it and maybe have less strength, I'll bend my other leg to help myself up if I feel it's needed. :yeah:

a key thing when doing a ballroom drop is to carry your own weight, this means not dropping like a sack of potatoes - you need to engage your core muscles - one way to do this is to imagine that you are an ironing board and keep your body as straight and firm as you can from knee to head.

martingold
31st-December-2008, 01:41 PM
:yeah:

a key thing when doing a ballroom drop is to carry your own weight, this means not dropping like a sack of potatoes - you need to engage your core muscles - one way to do this is to imagine that you are an ironing board and keep your body as straight and firm as you can from knee to head.
not having danced with you do you manage this all the way to the floor?? if so i guess thats how drathzel did it as i said earlier she is the only person who has ever done that with me and i have felt absolutely no weight in my arms

robd
31st-December-2008, 01:45 PM
feeling the follows weight as she goes down

Personally I feel that if they are willing to go down then the weight of a follower becomes less of an issue for me.

I actually led a BD at Twisted with a follower after she had mentioned it (I had completely forgotten it) and it's a nice move when done well. I love to see the iron pumpers (you know the sort, always in a vest the better to show off the guns) finding their dancefloor niche with a BD teasing the follower by starting the exit then dropping her back down again and again ad nauseam as if she were just another piece of kit down at the gym and they must do 50 reps :rolleyes:

Agree with the advice to do a dips and drops workshop if you get the chance. I did one with Emma P & Alex a few years back and, my god, I don't think I have ever ached as much as at the end of that day :sick:

I rarely do dips and drops now and find I have the problem of some followers thinking I am leading a Drip, throwing themselves into it and me having to catch their fall. Clearly, whatever I am trying to lead at that point must be very similar to the entrance to a dip or whatever.

Finally (and getting well away from the OP but who cares) if you are put into a seducer ladies, look into your partner's eyes on the way down. So few follows seem to do this and instead fling their heads back or to the side. For me, as a leader, the most connected and satisfying seducers include good eye contact. Lisa does this superbly (though I daresay she won't be doing any dips for a wee while :grin:)

ElaineB
31st-December-2008, 01:55 PM
:yeah:

a key thing when doing a ballroom drop is to carry your own weight, this means not dropping like a sack of potatoes - you need to engage your core muscles - one way to do this is to imagine that you are an ironing board and keep your body as straight and firm as you can from knee to head.

Excellent advice! I find that palates exercises help core muscles - the 'bridge' in particular is a good one, but if you have any back problems, then check with a physio/palates teacher before you do this. I use the whole of my body, from pushing down into the foot, using my bent leg and my stomach muscles to bring myself back up.

Also, when doing drops, turn your face to the side (as though looking towards the infamous Judges:devil:). Whatever you do, - DO NOT LOOK UP TOWARDS YOUR PARTNER'S FACE OR CEILING - there are limited muscles in the back of the neck and you can give yourself whiplash. You can also hit the back of your head on the floor.

Finally, or maybe firstly! Try to get a lesson from a competent teacher.


Elaine

martingold
31st-December-2008, 02:33 PM
Personally I feel that if they are willing to go down then the weight of a follower becomes less of an issue for me.

i didnt mean the weight was an issue i use it to judge how far the follow wants to be dropped ie if the weight comes right off half way down i will stop the drop there as the follow obviously wants that




I rarely do dips and drops now and find I have the problem of some followers thinking I am leading a Drip, throwing themselves into it and me having to catch their fall. Clearly, whatever I am trying to lead at that point must be very similar to the entrance to a dip or whatever.

No one should throw themselves into a drop its extremely dangerous.
Any drop or dip should be completely controlled by both partners in the dance

robd
31st-December-2008, 02:41 PM
Finally (and getting well away from the OP but who cares) if you are put into a seducer ladies, look into your partner's eyes on the way down. So few follows seem to do this and instead fling their heads back or to the side.



Also, when doing drops, turn your face to the side (as though looking towards the infamous Judges:devil:). Whatever you do, - DO NOT LOOK UP TOWARDS YOUR PARTNER'S FACE OR CEILING - there are limited muscles in the back of the neck and you can give yourself whiplash. You can also hit the back of your head on the floor.


I should say that I was referring specificaly to a seducer dip with my comments and I have been taught for this move to cradle the back of the ladies head with my hand during the dip to give both support and some protection against collision or, in worst case scenario, a fall to the floor.

And Martin, it wasn't a serious comment about weight, just some innuendo :innocent:

Caro
31st-December-2008, 03:07 PM
... drathzel who takes her entire weight all the way to the floor

ok it's been a while since I last did a BD, but if we're talking about the same thing, I cannot see how that would be possible.

Yes the follower supports some of her weight using a bent leg and holding her body as straight (the core muscles) as possible, but there is a point past which she cannot physically be in charge of all her weight - unless she's got some sort of levitation power :confused:

David Franklin
31st-December-2008, 03:30 PM
ok it's been a while since I last did a BD, but if we're talking about the same thing, I cannot see how that would be possible.

Yes the follower supports some of her weight using a bent leg and holding her body as straight (the core muscles) as possible, but there is a point past which she cannot physically be in charge of all her weight - unless she's got some sort of levitation power :confused:It's important to realise that the follower's body doesn't need to be straight. Arching the back will allow a "head to the floor" drop where the center stays over the supporting foot.

For an extreme example of how this makes it possible to do a BD with no support from the lead, consider one of those contortionists who can bend over backwards and pick something off the floor with their teeth.

More generally, if you have a really good back arch (by mortal standards, not contortionist standards) it is possible to get all the way to the floor in a BD position and control your weight. I've not known anyone who could do quite manage that, but I think Andreas said one of his partners could.

I have personally known partners who took so much weight that I could do a BD using one finger with little effort.

Caro
31st-December-2008, 03:48 PM
For an extreme example of how this makes it possible to do a BD with no support from the lead, consider one of those contortionists who can bend over backwards and pick something off the floor with their teeth.

More generally, if you have a really good back arch (by mortal standards, not contortionist standards) it is possible to get all the way to the floor in a BD position and control your weight. I've not known anyone who could do quite manage that, but I think Andreas said one of his partners could.


yeah I did think that contortionists would be able to do that, but haven't seen many doing MJ ;)

Wouldn't the girl need a super strong thigh too ? Anyway I remain unconvinced... (contortionist excepted) until I see someone go into a BD position on her own, and back up, without her back touching the floor!

David Franklin
31st-December-2008, 04:27 PM
Anyway I remain unconvinced... (contortionist excepted) until I see someone go into a BD position on her own, and back up, without her back touching the floor!I'm not really arguing with you (*) - I've never seen anyone actually able to do it, and only 1 girl who I could do the 1-finger thing with. There's also a distinction between "man not taking any weight" and "man not needing to be there at all" - a little assist with the balance can help a lot.

It's hard to do a YouTube search for something like this, but I found something vaguely helpful. Have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7Iq1mZQcc at 0:46, that will give you a good idea of what I'm envisaging as possible, the main difference being that one foot isn't extended forwards. As far as I can work out, extending one foot (as in a ballroom drop) would probably improve the balance equation, but requires more weight to be taken on the other thigh.

Note that when it's that extreme, it doesn't really look much like a ballroom drop - to a lesser extent that was also the case with the girl I could do 1-finger drops with.

Note: I'm not 100% sure that is the same approach that Andreas was talking about.

(*) There's a difference between "possible" and "reasonable in practice".

Caro
31st-December-2008, 04:37 PM
It's hard to do a YouTube search for something like this, but I found something vaguely helpful. Have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7Iq1mZQcc at 0:46, that will give you a good idea of what I'm envisaging as possible, the main difference being that one foot isn't extended forwards. As far as I can work out, extending one foot (as in a ballroom drop) would probably improve the balance equation, but requires more weight to be taken on the other thigh.


Ok I give you it might* be possible, then, but I have doubts that's what Danielle was doing !

*Although I am still not sure anyone would be able to hold the conventional BD position, i.e. one leg extended, one bent, and back flatish a few cm off the floor.

So, back to the 'conventional' MJ BD drop, I don't think it fair to tell ladies that they should be able to hold all their weight. As much as possible, yes, using the techniques explained above, but at some point their partner will have to bear some or most of their weight.

Easily Led
31st-December-2008, 04:40 PM
I'm not really arguing with you (*) - I've never seen anyone actually able to do it, and only 1 girl who I could do the 1-finger thing with. There's also a distinction between "man not taking any weight" and "man not needing to be there at all" - a little assist with the balance can help a lot.

It's hard to do a YouTube search for something like this, but I found something vaguely helpful. Have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7Iq1mZQcc at 0:46, that will give you a good idea of what I'm envisaging as possible, the main difference being that one foot isn't extended forwards. As far as I can work out, extending one foot (as in a ballroom drop) would probably improve the balance equation, but requires more weight to be taken on the other thigh.

Note that when it's that extreme, it doesn't really look much like a ballroom drop - to a lesser extent that was also the case with the girl I could do 1-finger drops with.

Note: I'm not 100% sure that is the same approach that Andreas was talking about.

(*) There's a difference between "possible" and "reasonable in practice".

:eek::eek::eek:!

Georgious dancer
31st-December-2008, 05:37 PM
It's hard to do a YouTube search for something like this, but I found something vaguely helpful. Have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7Iq1mZQcc at 0:46, that will give you a good idea of what I'm envisaging as possible, Note: I'm not 100% sure that is the same approach that Andreas was talking about.


OMG - I had to close my eyes when he stepped on her!

David Franklin
31st-December-2008, 06:13 PM
Ok I give you it might* be possible, then, but I have doubts that's what Danielle was doing !

*Although I am still not sure anyone would be able to hold the conventional BD position, i.e. one leg extended, one bent, and back flatish a few cm off the floor. I agree that I can't see it being possible with a near-flat back(*). If it is possible, I'd love to see a picture so I can work out the physics.


So, back to the 'conventional' MJ BD drop, I don't think it fair to tell ladies that they should be able to hold all their weight.Oh I agree - I don't think I've ever said otherwise.

On the other hand, speaking subjectively, it is certainly possible to do a conventional MJ BD drop without the leader feeling like they are taking much weight. I find holding a 1-armed BD "to the floor" feels fairly effortless when done with the right follower.

(*) Excepting very strange physique. For example, there's a breakdancer who is unusually good at some balance moves (e.g. planche pushups) because he actually has atrophied legs due to illness and it moves his center of mass closer to his torso.

Yliander
31st-December-2008, 07:22 PM
So, back to the 'conventional' MJ BD drop, I don't think it fair to tell ladies that they should be able to hold all their weight. As much as possible, yes, using the techniques explained above, but at some point their partner will have to bear some or most of their weight. when I said for a follower to carry their weight I meant something different to holding their own weight.

by carrying their own weight - I mean not being a dead weight - as this makes you heavier for the lead. In my experience it tends to be very small ladies that are more prone to not carrying their weight - those of us with a little more meat on our bones tend to be very concious of carrying weight - even if not fuly aware of it.

absolutely with Elaine B about Pilates being great for building core strength - Alexander technique and feldinkist (spelling?) are also good.

I have to say I find it difficut to imagine anyone being able to go to full ballroom drop position with back straight and up again on their own

geoff332
31st-December-2008, 08:34 PM
The key in any drop is less about weight and more about the centre of gravity. When a follow does a drop well, they keep the centre of their weight as close to their foot as possible. A huge part of that is done by all the stuff people have mentioned: like keeping a strong core and not throwing your head back.

A couple of things I would add are, firstly, keep close together: this makes the weight easier to manage for both partners. Secondly, the follow's weight is primarily moving down, not across. If you move your weight across, you are shifting the centre of gravity, which makes the drop harder to control. The same applies to the lead: they have to keep their lead steady and moving their weight around is a good way to mess that up.

Leads should never force the follow into a drop. It's very much an invite and assist lead. Similarly, for follows: never throw yourself into a drop. If the lead wasn't meaning a drop, then it's most likely to end in tears. I've had follows back out of drops (and backed out of them myself). I'd rather do that than go into a drop that either of us is not confident about. For lead or follow, it's important to make sure you have it all right before you start.

There are a lot of leads who do drops badly, which is a pretty sure way to strain and stretch the follow's back. I really dislike guys who try and "teach" everyone they know (including beginners) how to do a drop during freestyle (the only thing worse is teaching laybacks: they're even worse for damaging backs). Unfortunately, periodic workshops aren't the most effective way to drum in good technique or safety. This stuff needs to be drummed and hammered into people's heads far more frequently to build the basic technique.

The advantage is, of course, the basic technique is pretty much the same for all drops. Once you know it, then you can transfer it pretty easily from one drop to another.

ant
1st-January-2009, 10:03 AM
I have to say I find it difficut to imagine anyone being able to go to full ballroom drop position with back straight and up again on their own

I have had this pulled on me by two different women, admittedly they were only being held by one arm though (I should say they were holding me with one hand as well).

The first time was by a lady called Miriam at a Utopia event. Like Martingold said earlier I had no idea what she did the first time. However she has done it a couple of times since though. It is some kind of back flip and then she helps herself up by pulling very lightly on the arm she is holding.

The second lady was this weekend just gone. I can't remember who it was but I think it was either LilyB at Twyford or Rachel at Berko.

These ladies seem to have very different backs to the most. You can actually feel every vertebra just flexing backwards independantly. There is no rigidity at all in the spinal column.

I thought for one daft moment that I must have led the move but the lady picks her moment and does it totally from her own lead.

Unless you actually experience it, it is difficult to believe they can do it.

As regards Easily Led's question. I would listen to The Tramp and others who have commented and go get expert help. You are playing with your back and no move is worth risking that.

Minnie M
1st-January-2009, 11:02 AM
Personally, if you are wanting to do dips, or drops, I'd advise going and finding a workshop in your area, run by someone who knows what they are doing, and learning to do things properly......
:yeah: without doubt !!
A seducer was taught last week at a Ceroc venue to mainly beginners in their fun Xmas class :angry: trust me, that was not fun :mad: and I am not just talking about the beginners trying it with me :sick: I am surprised there wasn't a nasty accident that evening.

Why do they do it !!!

NZ Monkey
1st-January-2009, 11:56 AM
So, back to the 'conventional' MJ BD drop, I don't think it fair to tell ladies that they should be able to hold all their weight. As much as possible, yes, using the techniques explained above, but at some point their partner will have to bear some or most of their weight.It's a lot like telling the guys it's their fault if the move doesn't work. i.e. It's not necessarily true if you really think about it, but the sentiment pushes people in the right direction and it makes the point easily.

Others have said much the same thing already, but I'll throw my two p in as well. From the followers perspective the points she really needs to concentrate on in a BD (as I have learned it) are:

Keep the back and neck straight. It isn't strictly necessary to do this if you have much better than average core strength and control, but it makes a big difference to the guy if you don't. A rigid body is much easier to support than a sack of potatoes. It also reduces the chance of your head hitting the floor, which can't be a bad thing.

Drop directly down over the supporting foot rather than topple back over the supporting knee, and let the extended foot slide away from the centre rather than stay more-or-less in the same position it was when standing.. The closer the ladys center of mass (around her belly button) is to that support the lighter she'll feel to the guy. You'd have to be particularly flexible to actually get right underneath it, but even the tiniest distance can make a big difference to your apparent weight. The toppling effect is an illusion.

Sit your weight on the ball of your foot in the down position, so you can rest your body on your heel. If you try to take all of your weight through your muscles rather than your structure, you won't have any explosive* power to help lift yourself (through the pelvis) from the floor. You may even cramp or strain something if you're not well warmed up.

Keep the arms straight. It makes the "pull" much more predictable, and therefore smoother and safer for everyone involved. In fact, avoid pulling yourself up or lowering yourself down with the arms as much as possible. It shouldn't be necessary, as the drop should be controlled largely by your core muscles. A womans arms are extremely unlikely to be longer than her partners legs, and as he should be anchoring the drop at his hip with the arm lines being made from shoulder to opposite foot this should give plenty of margin for error.

Lift from the pelvis when coming up. I know it feels like an impossible task to lift yourself from the floor this way completely by yourself, but you're not doing that in practice. As long as you do this and keep to point 1 as much as possible you take a very significant portion of dead weight off the leader, who in turn can do a better job of lifting you. If you don't believe me here try leading it on someone who knows how this works and let them show you the difference.


For most people this isn't terribly intuitive, and so in places where drops are not addressed in classes you tend to find that most people who use them are self-taught**.

Drops are an area where even a little understanding of basic structure from both partners makes an enormous difference to safety and execution.

NZ Monkey get's off his soapbox and heads to bed......


* Explosive makes this sound more violent than I really intend, but I still think it's the correct use of the word.

**Read: frighteningly bad at them

martingold
1st-January-2009, 11:57 AM
And Martin, it wasn't a serious comment about weight, just some innuendo :innocent:
oops :blush: lol


It's important to realise that the follower's body doesn't need to be straight. Arching the back will allow a "head to the floor" drop where the center stays over the supporting foot.

I have personally known partners who took so much weight that I could do a BD using one finger with little effort.
maybe this is how she does it you could certainly do a bd with her on one finger




Wouldn't the girl need a super strong thigh too ? Anyway I remain unconvinced... (contortionist excepted) until I see someone go into a BD position on her own, and back up, without her back touching the floor!
If you can lead a BD and see Drathzel :worthy: somewhere ask her to do one with you
I am sure you will be convinced i was certainly suprised when i did it

ant
1st-January-2009, 12:30 PM
Although I am still not sure anyone would be able to hold the conventional BD position, i.e. one leg extended, one bent, and back flatish a few cm off the floor.

So, back to the 'conventional' MJ BD drop, I don't think it fair to tell ladies that they should be able to hold all their weight. As much as possible, yes, using the techniques explained above, but at some point their partner will have to bear some or most of their weight.

Caro I think you are right but from a leaders point of view you get the feeling that the lady is doing exactly what you describe. The lady goes flat back then comes back on her own. As the leader you have no control at all in the move and it happens very quickly.

From a gymnastic point of view what is actually happening is probabally not that difficult although it has a very high level of difficulty in an MJ environment.

I think either the lady can go back flat and back up if both legs are bent or with a slight pull on the leaders arm if one leg is straight.

When a lady has done it with me I get the distinct impression that she is totally within her own comfort zone and her only real concern is whether me as a leader will not do anything stupid because of the shock of what she does. I think you will find a very flexible back with no rigidity is the first requirement, although I have no doubt that musculator comes into it as well.

martingold
1st-January-2009, 12:47 PM
*Although I am still not sure anyone would be able to hold the conventional BD position, i.e. one leg extended, one bent, and back flatish a few cm off the floor.

So, back to the 'conventional' MJ BD drop, I don't think it fair to tell ladies that they should be able to hold all their weight. As much as possible, yes, using the techniques explained above, but at some point their partner will have to bear some or most of their weight.
Sorry i missed this bit earlier
I would never tell a lady she has to take all of her own body weight Drathzel is the exception to the rule
i like to do the BD slowly (probably over about 4 beats down and 3 to 4 beats up with a lot of control this would be impossible for most follows to do without me having the correct "A" frame stance and being in the right possition for the dropwhich means i can lower my hands vertically and dont take the follow of ballance (i will abort a drop if i dont get in the right possition before lowering the follow) in that case i have no problem holding the weight of any follow in both directions


As the leader you have no control at all in the move and it happens very quickly.


i disagree i hate this move when done fast as i have no control over it if a follow throws herself into the move i will be in a possition to stop them going to the floor (as you know ant i am a big lad lol )

Lory
1st-January-2009, 01:23 PM
I was completely 'drop phobic' for a long while. And it was down to two incidences that turned me off, and that was that.

The first one was in an advanced class at Ealing a very long time ago... we were being taught a 'drop' but I didn't feel at all safe, so I decided to sit out (thank goodness) and then witnessed Mary, who was extremely experienced in lifts and drops, take a really nasty fall :really: and I thought, well that's that, if it can happen to a strong, featherweight, experienced dancer like her, then there's no hope for me!

Secondly, I was dancing in freestyle with a guy, who suddenly and very authoritatively demanded, "how much do you weight?" :what: I almost choked... WHY? And he told me that he wanted to do a drop but the ladies have to be under a certain weight. :really:
I won't bother to tell you the next few lines of conversation but lets just say, we've never danced since! :whistle:
I know the guy was an idiot but nevertheless, the 'sentiment' stayed with me for a long time

Since then, I've learn a lot and i've also worked on my core strength.


The key in any drop is less about weight and more about the centre of gravity. I agree entirely!


When a follow does a drop well, they keep the centre of their weight as close to their foot as possible. A huge part of that is done by all the stuff people have mentioned: like keeping a strong core and not throwing your head back.

Yes to all the above but I'd also like to add, that the lead has a large part to play in that.
I've found that with some men, I feel almost weightless :worthy:and with others I feel really heavy and I'm sure its to do with how/where they stand.

If they counter balance your weight, by leaning in a slightly opposing direction, instead of lowering you down from directly above your head, it feels much better, for me at least.

Also, some guys manage to use a bit of momentum, I'm not sure exactly how it works but they seem to find the right moment when we can 'work together' and it becomes quite effortless for both of us, whilst others seem make a meal of it!

And lastly, no offence to small guys but I do believe that, this is one instance where, size does make a difference! :devil:

martingold
1st-January-2009, 01:35 PM
Secondly, I was dancing in freestyle with a guy, who suddenly and very authoritatively demanded, "how much do you weight?" :what: I almost choked...

Um this begs a question :na:


Yes to all the above but I'd also like to add, that the lead has a large part to play in that.
I've found that with some men, I feel almost weightless :worthy:and with others I feel really heavy and I'm sure its to do with how/where they stand.

If they counter balance your weight, by leaning in a slightly opposing direction, instead of lowering you down from directly above your head, it feels much better, for me at least.

i was taught you should as a lead never lean in either direction and the drop is done by lowering your hands directly to the floor in the center of an "A" frame this keeps a good C O G i never have any trouble with this drop i will only drop a lady to thier own limit
As for weight it doesnt make the slightest bit of difference so long as both partners do the drop properly


Also, some guys manage to use a bit of momentum, I'm not sure exactly how it works but they seem to find the right moment when we can 'work together' and it becomes quite effortless for both of us, whilst others seem make a meal of it!

I am not sure if its momentum or simply the stance (have i dropped you lorry? I would be interested in feedback )


And lastly, no offence to small guys but I do believe that, this is one instance where, size does make a difference! :devil:
:really: us small guys need love too you know :na:

David Franklin
1st-January-2009, 01:50 PM
Sit your weight on the ball of your foot in the down position, so you can rest your body on your heel. If you try to take all of your weight through your muscles rather than your structure, you won't have any explosive* power to help lift yourself (through the pelvis) from the floor. You may even cramp or strain something if you're not well warmed up.I very rarely (I'm tempted to say never) see this done in practice. I remember a while back looking for pictures/footage of deep ballroom drops and found that most weren't actually "that deep". That is, if you look at the "hip-knee-foot" angle, it was rarely much under 90 degrees, let alone so acute that bum really did contact heel. (Happy to look at pictures/footage proving me wrong if you have them. Funnily, just about the deepest drop I've seen a picture of is the one at the end of our first dance; I'd be interested to see the "knee angle", but as Bryony is in a wedding dress, much is obscured... :wink: )

So I've just been sitting here doing the (somewhat) scientific thing of miming this out as a man, and I am unconvinced. That is an incredibly deep squat position - the normal "you can't go lower" position you hear powerlifters talk about is calf to hamstring, and this is even lower than that. Squatting that deep puts a lot of stress on your knee if you're not used to it. Furthermore, sensible advice would always be not to go beyond your safe limits, and if you're using your heel as a 'stop', chances are you're not stopping at your own safe point.

I would think I have a lot more leg and knee strength than most women (even pound-for-pound), and that position really isn't pleasant for me. (A discussion of pistol squats comments that this position is essentially "a great way to twist and injury your knee"). On the other hand, I probably have a lot less flexibility than most women, so it may even out. On the gripping hand, I do have some experience of deep squatting, and I know how much difference it makes being "used" to it.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, and I wouldn't be surprised if it works well for 'elite' dancers. But I'm certainly cautious about recommending it as general advice.

jive-vee
1st-January-2009, 02:06 PM
Yes to all the above but I'd also like to add, that the lead has a large part to play in that.
I've found that with some men, I feel almost weightless :worthy:and with others I feel really heavy and I'm sure its to do with how/where they stand.

If they counter balance your weight, by leaning in a slightly opposing direction, instead of lowering you down from directly above your head, it feels much better, for me at least.

Also, some guys manage to use a bit of momentum, I'm not sure exactly how it works but they seem to find the right moment when we can 'work together' and it becomes quite effortless for both of us, whilst others seem make a meal of it!

:yeah:

geoff332
1st-January-2009, 03:26 PM
Yes to all the above but I'd also like to add, that the lead has a large part to play in that.
I've found that with some men, I feel almost weightless :worthy:and with others I feel really heavy and I'm sure its to do with how/where they stand.I suspect that the guys that make you feel heavy are pulling you off your centre (most likely, unintentionally); the ones who make you feel light are either letting you find your own centre or actively assisting you. As a lead, I find it's a fine art to lead and assist a drop, without knocking the follow off centre. As a lead with a good follow, you should primarily give vertical force to help with the up and down of the drop, while providing almost no horizontal force, which would mess up the follow's balance.

And lastly, no offence to small guys but I do believe that, this is one instance where, size does make a difference! :devil:I disagree. Good balance and technique are far more important. Some of the best guys I've seen leading drops are very small. Some of the worst are big/strong. The difference isn't too hard to explain. If you're big and strong, you can rely on these attributes to make a drop work. As a result, I see a lot of guys use their strength to lead a technically very poor drop that's likely to injure the poor woman they've thrown into it. If you don't have strength to rely on, the only way you're going to lead a drop is to master the technical aspects.

For example, if I lead a ballroom drop well with a good follow, I find it takes almost no strength. If I don't get the lead quite right or the follow doesn't get their part quite right, it takes more strength. At the extreme, if the follow collapses her frame in the drop, I can end up holding all her weight; if she's thrown into the drop, then the weight is multiplied by momentum. If I'm set and on balance (ie good technique), then it takes significantly less strength to handle even this.

Andy McGregor
1st-January-2009, 04:06 PM
I have a couple of tips I give that help with the ballroom drop. The first is to do with the follows neck and avoiding whiplash. The follow should turn her head to look over their left shoulder. This means that the stronger muscles at the side of the neck are supporting the weight of the head rather than we weaker muscles at the front of the neck.

The other tip I give is about getting back up again. After the follow has been dropped into the horizontal position it is much easier to return them to the upright position if the lead moves to the right as they start the recovery - this means the follows bottom is drawn over the supporting foot and they can use their leg to help push themselves upright.

The above advice doesn't mean I recommend the ballroom drop on a social dance floor. I think it is an unsafe move to do with other dancers nearby. I've seen a lady get her long hair trodden on by another dancer and lose some of it as she was drawn upright :eek:

bigdjiver
1st-January-2009, 04:08 PM
Thanks to all, this has been a very useful thread.


... And lastly, no offence to small guys but I do believe that, this is one instance where, size does make a difference! :devil:


... if I lead a ballroom drop well with a good follow, I find it takes almost no strength. If I don't get the lead quite right or the follow doesn't get their part quite right, it takes more strength. At the extreme, if the follow collapses her frame in the drop, I can end up holding all her weight; if she's thrown into the drop, then the weight is multiplied by momentum. If I'm set and on balance (ie good technique), then it takes significantly less strength to handle even this.Which is why I believe Lory is right. When it all goes horribly wrong (and that can happen to experts) the safety net is the guys experience, reaction time, and strength, being prepared and being able.

geoff332
1st-January-2009, 06:04 PM
Which is why I believe Lory is right. When it all goes horribly wrong (and that can happen to experts) the safety net is the guys experience, reaction time, and strength, being prepared and being able.Not at all. The strength required when all goes horribly wrong is not particularly great, if you know what you're doing. Thinking that strength will get you out of trouble is simply a cop-out for a lead to lead drops that they don't have the technical ability to handle. That was exactly the point I was trying to make.

Any leader who will only do a drop because they have the strength to get out of trouble should not be doing that drop because their technique isn't good enough to handle it. That is extremely dangerous (mostly for the follow) - and a little stupid. While a lead can muscle their way out of trouble, it's almost certain to put stresses and strains on the follow's body. I doubt many follows would like to have their back put out while dancing.

For myself, I have a few follows I know well. Those are the people I try out knew things and stretch myself - because I trust their technical ability and know the nuances of their dancing. With anyone else, I stick to moves that won't injure anyone if things go horribly wrong.

martingold
1st-January-2009, 06:32 PM
Which is why I believe Lory is right. When it all goes horribly wrong (and that can happen to experts) the safety net is the guys experience, reaction time, and strength, being prepared and being able.
not in my experience


Not at all. The strength required when all goes horribly wrong is not particularly great, if you know what you're doing.
yes and no

I am 6ft tall and 17 stone so hardly small
If it goes wrong badly it will go wrong no matter what size or weight you are
when i was less experienced about 7 yrs ago i was in a busk outside woolies in chelmsford high st
I was dancing with someone i had danced with often although never done the BD with her i said do yoiu know the BD she said yes
I got into position she decided to launch herself to my left taking me completely off balance no amount of weight, height or skill would have stopped her taking me over she landed on the floor i landed on top of her
we got up took a bow and carried on dancing
(we did get a big cheer from the crowd lol )

the one and only important thing in this drop is balance

bigdjiver
1st-January-2009, 06:57 PM
... I stick to moves that won't injure anyone if things go horribly wrong.There are very few, if any, MJ moves that cannot result in injury if it goes horribly wrong.

As has been often said being smaller is generally an advantage for a dancer. The ability to accelerate faster is sometimes essential in an emegency. Few if any are born with perfect technique, and strength will sometimes help to compensate for the deficiencies whilst we are learning. Strength is no excuse for not learning to do it right.


... Any leader who will only do a drop because they have the strength to get out of trouble should not be doing that drop because their technique isn't good enough to handle it... That just about includes every leader whilst learning. No leader can be sure what a follower will do. I had a 5'11" lady trip over her own feet whilst trying to do a double spin. She fell away from me. By some miracle, which I could probably ever repeat, I leapt forward, got my arm under her shoulder, palm under her head, and turned it into a spectacular drop. Her hair just touching the floor. It is not something that I believe any guy could have done, not matter how much practise and tuition they had. (OTOH I am adventuresome and have had "learning experiences" most would have avoided.:sad::tears:

There is is a judo saying that teaching a short man judo is like giving him a club, teaching a big man judo is like giving him a bigger club.

Minnie M
1st-January-2009, 07:10 PM
....There are very few, if any, MJ moves that cannot result in injury if it goes horribly wrong...
:yeah:
I have many times gone home with a sore shoulder from 'yankers' AND that move when the lead 'forces' the follower backwards over his thigh (something like that) usually goes horribly wrong and leaves me (and others) with a sore back - to name a few :whistle:

NZ Monkey
2nd-January-2009, 12:28 AM
I very rarely (I'm tempted to say never) see this done in practice. I remember a while back looking for pictures/footage of deep ballroom drops and found that most weren't actually "that deep". That is, if you look at the "hip-knee-foot" angle, it was rarely much under 90 degrees, let alone so acute that bum really did contact heel. (Happy to look at pictures/footage proving me wrong if you have them. Funnily, just about the deepest drop I've seen a picture of is the one at the end of our first dance; I'd be interested to see the "knee angle", but as Bryony is in a wedding dress, much is obscured... :wink: )

So I've just been sitting here doing the (somewhat) scientific thing of miming this out as a man, and I am unconvinced. That is an incredibly deep squat position - the normal "you can't go lower" position you hear powerlifters talk about is calf to hamstring, and this is even lower than that. Squatting that deep puts a lot of stress on your knee if you're not used to it. Furthermore, sensible advice would always be not to go beyond your safe limits, and if you're using your heel as a 'stop', chances are you're not stopping at your own safe point.

I would think I have a lot more leg and knee strength than most women (even pound-for-pound), and that position really isn't pleasant for me. (A discussion of pistol squats comments that this position is essentially "a great way to twist and injury your knee"). On the other hand, I probably have a lot less flexibility than most women, so it may even out. On the gripping hand, I do have some experience of deep squatting, and I know how much difference it makes being "used" to it.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, and I wouldn't be surprised if it works well for 'elite' dancers. But I'm certainly cautious about recommending it as general advice.Squatting is not how I'd describe the position, but after not being able to find any decent pictures myself I decided I'd have to do the shameless thing and take them myself.

These are a very good approximation of the position I was talking about, with the initial foot placement as a reference so you can what I mean about sliding the extended foot. I'm dangling off a door frame here, but even then I was able to (inelegantly) raise myself from the floor through the pelvis, although without anyone helping me up I did need to use my arms to complete the motion.

As you can see, I don't think the power lifting comparison is appropriate considering the differences in structure, but I find it really hard to get this image across in text.

NZ Monkey
2nd-January-2009, 12:40 AM
It would seem my inexperience with managing my attachments prevented me from getting this picture in my last post..... and despite deleting all of my attachments and the file being less than a MB, I still cant upload it. :(

For the record, my right foot started with the heel on the ground next to the door frame, and the only movement of it on the way down was to come up on the ball of that foot.

NZ Monkey
2nd-January-2009, 12:43 AM
I don't know what's going on any more :tears:

David Franklin
2nd-January-2009, 12:43 AM
Squatting is not how I'd describe the position, but after not being able to find any decent pictures myself I decided I'd have to do the shameless thing and take them myself.Did you, um, forget to post them?


I find it really hard to get this image across in text.Irony, ur doin' it right!

Edit: this would have been funnier if I'd got it done before your last two posts.

David Franklin
2nd-January-2009, 01:18 AM
{NZ posted a pic}{after 15 minutes of trying to copy NZ monkey, I have a sore knee :( }

Are you actually sitting on your heel there? If I "sit on my heel" in a similar fashion, I'm much closer to horizontal than that (I can actually put my head to the ground by arching a little). And there's absolutely no way I can explode from there (well, my knee joint might do some exploding, but...)

NZ Monkey
2nd-January-2009, 01:27 AM
{after 15 minutes of trying to copy NZ monkey, I have a sore knee :( }

Are you actually sitting on your heel there? If I "sit on my heel" in a similar fashion, I'm much closer to horizontal than that (I can actually put my head to the ground by arching a little). And there's absolutely no way I can explode from there (well, my knee joint might do some exploding, but...)Sorry, but yes - I actually am sitting on my heel. To be fair, a portion of my weight is also being supported through hamstring-to-calf contact, but I definitely have as much weight as I can get on my heel. You might be finding that your back is arching more than you think if you're down that low or that you're holding onto something lower than you might be if you were actually dancing, but that's just a guess. The girls probably know better than I do about those sorts of thing.

Edit: Of course, I might be holding on too high compared to actual dancing. Cut me some slack please.... I don't do this often after all :na:

15 minutes of holding *any* type of drop would make me feel like exploding for what it's worth. :na:

David Franklin
2nd-January-2009, 02:03 AM
Sorry, but yes - I actually am sitting on my heel.Just shows how it obviously differs between people. I'm not particularly arched as far as I can tell, because it works out I'm parallel to the skirting board which gives me a visual ref. When I arch to get the head on the ground, I'm really just arching my neck. I'm definitely holding on lower, but that's more a lack of suitable places to grab than anything else.

That position is way 'deeper' than I can actually provide much strength. As you say, my weight is resting on bone/muscle, but I can't actually shift it. Not necessarily a problem if the lead is going to be bring me back up, but not a good position to help much, either.

For a slightly different tack on it, I'll try to post a couple of pics from (winning) US Showcase performances. I'm not cherry picking beyond "I have the DVD in front of me, and I remember a clear pic of a BD in this routine", but I don't claim it's necessarily representative.

Bottom line, they don't come even close to what you suggest (and in fact, one of them looks pretty naff). But it shows what top dancers "really do".

Caro
2nd-January-2009, 02:08 AM
taking pics of him ballroom-droping himself in door frame




trying to emulate NZM to see if he can ballroom-drop himself too


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: thanks guys, trying to imagine you, ballroom dropping yourselves to experiment the physics of the whole thing, really made me smile. Scientific brains ;) :flower: :hug:

David Franklin
2nd-January-2009, 02:20 AM
Edit: Hmmm... my turn to be bitten by technology. Can't persuade WMP to let me capture images, and fiddling with some of the tech options is causing it to start playing audio even with mute turned on, which is not going to make me popular at 1am.

So, a text description and a YouTube link.

Pic 1: Barry Jones and Kellese Kay, Grand Nationals 1996 Showcase 1st place. Kellese has both legs bent, actually has a slight 'sag' at pelvis, bum is about a foot higher than her heel.
Pic 2: Matt and Megan, Grand Nationals 1997 Young Adult 1st place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hdDE4ssomk about 34 seconds in.

Again, other "real world" clips or pictures appreciated (not that I don't also appreciate the effort you went to, NZ, but not sure how realistic it is).

Oh, and for the heck of it (and I do like the pic...)

http://www.btinternet.com/~david.w.franklin/Wedding/first_dance_drop.jpg

NZ Monkey
2nd-January-2009, 02:23 AM
Just shows how it obviously differs between people. I'm not particularly arched as far as I can tell, because it works out I'm parallel to the skirting board which gives me a visual ref. Sadly, one size very rarely fits all. At least it makes for interesting discussions.


That position is way 'deeper' than I can actually provide much strength. As you say, my weight is resting on bone/muscle, but I can't actually shift it. Not necessarily a problem if the lead is going to be bring me back up, but not a good position to help much, either.Two things might help here. As I said before, you have help in practice, so you're not taking all your own weight up. It also gets a lot easier once you're a little further up off the floor as long as you keep on lifting from the pelvis.

The second thing is a bit more subtle. Rather than just trying to lift directly up, it helps to think about rolling your body up and even a little bit forward (toward the extended foot). At the very bottom that amounts more to shifting your weight than really lifting it, but it helps develop momentum which combined with the leaders help make a noticeable difference.


For a slightly different tack on it, I'll try to post a couple of pics from (winning) US Showcase performances. I'm not cherry picking beyond "I have the DVD in front of me, and I remember a clear pic of a BD in this routine", but I don't claim it's necessarily representative.

Bottom line, they don't come even close to what you suggest (and in fact, one of them looks pretty naff). But it shows what top dancers "really do".If you can get the shot's I'd like to see it. I've found my method (TM) to be the best personally, but I'm a long way from being a top pro as well :wink:


thanks guys, trying to imagine you, ballroom dropping yourselves to experiment the physics of the whole thing, really made me smile. Scientific brains It's probably a good thing we're not talking about throwing ourselves from buildings I suppose :whistle:

Caro
2nd-January-2009, 02:36 AM
Pic 2: Matt and Megan, Grand Nationals 1997 Young Adult 1st place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hdDE4ssomk about 34 seconds in

what a great clip, thanks for that!

The speed of that 'corkscrew' (1'51) :eek: !!!
Did the move at around 2'11 reminded anyone else of J&T seal's routine (girl spinning under guy's leg) and their last routine (the finish, girl dropped holding by the leg) ?

And just how annoying are that bouncy hand and that commentator??

NZ Monkey
2nd-January-2009, 02:47 AM
Pic 2: Matt and Megan, Grand Nationals 1997 Young Adult 1st place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hdDE4ssomk about 34 seconds in.To be fair, she doesn't get taken all the way to the floor either.

Looking at her knees, they're very close to being together at the lowest point and this is exactly how I've been taught as well. Her weight looks to be almost directly above the heel at this point as well, although obviously she can't sit on it yet at that height. I'm not sure whether she'd let that knee come up relative to the rest of her body if she went down lower, or if she'd keep that relationship the whole way.


Again, other "real world" clips or pictures appreciated (not that I don't also appreciate the effort you went to, NZ, but not sure how realistic it is).I'm afraid that if I had something like that, I'd have posted it to begin with and avoided Caro poking fun at me.

In practice this is an ideal. It's rare to find someone that'll go down exactly like that every time (and the leader needs to be doing his part to set it up like that too, which I haven't mentioned yet), but the ones who do I find very easy to manage. I find that the closer to this the women get's the easier it is for me.


Oh, and for the heck of it (and I do like the pic...)Nice. I particularly like that the brand new ring on your spare hand shows up :grin:

bigdjiver
2nd-January-2009, 03:57 PM
:devil: Wasn't it Andy McG who was asking about the sizzle in MJ?


... although obviously she can't sit on it yet at that height...

...It's rare to find someone that'll go down exactly like that every time...

... I find that the closer to this the women get's the easier it is for me...

David Franklin
2nd-January-2009, 04:27 PM
thanks guys, trying to imagine you, ballroom dropping yourselves to experiment the physics of the whole thing, really made me smile. Scientific brains ;) :flower: :hug:OK, so the somewhat embarrassing scientific observation the morning after.

My knee is, um, "not right" today :( There's something funny happening in the joint when I crouch down. Now I've done things like this before dancing, and I'm pretty sure it will sort itself out over the next few days. But it's certainly something I'd have done better to have avoided.

Now you could (rightly) say I have only myself to blame. But, sitting on the heel ain't looking a good plan as far as I'm concerned right now.

(FWIW, I'm pretty sure this is a "pushed the joint past its comfortable range of motion" issue, not a "put too much weight on it" one).

Lory
2nd-January-2009, 04:44 PM
Pic 2: Matt and Megan, Grand Nationals 1997 Young Adult 1st place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hdDE4ssomk about 34 seconds in.

[/IMG]Wow, I'm exhausted just watching that :really::worthy:

Gadget
3rd-January-2009, 01:07 PM
Just to add in my 2c:

All of this advice to the follower is brilliant :worthy: but it does require a couple of things from the lead...
1) The lead needs to be balanced, prepared and positioned correctly to provide the necessary support to the follower in the correct place.

2) the lead needs to time the lead into it correctly.

To me, these two things take a lot of practice and dedication with a specific partner to get to any level of competency that would allow me to use this with even a nod towards musicality. (oh, or reduce the injury chance enough.) So unless I had a competition partner or other regular dance partner I wouldn't expend the time or energy on a move that is pure showmanship.

I would also learn every 'escape' move I could think on before learning the drop - just so it could be safely abandoned if something starts to feel 'wrong'... but I tend to over worry/think about about these things :)

(These two things also should outline that it is led - follower's throwing themselves into what they presume to be a led move can only lead to pain.:tears: )

jivecat
3rd-January-2009, 03:44 PM
There should definitely be more of these workshops around. Sometimes I think these workshops encourage people to think they've got good technique when they haven't. I can't count the number of times some dodgy bloke has said, when I've been reluctant to do a drop, "Oh, you'll be alright with ME!" After all workshops rarely contain much element of individual coaching or monitoring by the teacher, it's up to the participant to decide whether they have mastered it or not. I'd like to see people having to pass a "road test" before they get a licence to practise drops on the unsuspecting public.



There are still too many weak dancers who think they're really steady doing drops, who don't check with the followers first, then look at me like I'm wrong for refusing to do the drop/lean etc. Even when I explain I only do them with people I've danced a lot with before or people that I'm really sure about following their lead (I try to be polite, but sometimes it doesn't work when I say no drops but then they still lead them!):yeah: If they really frighten me I just say that I have a bad back, which usually gets a more sensitive response. It's certainly true that I have been left in a lot of pain before now due to over-ambitious dropping. Also, I'm careful to commit as little weight to the leader as possible if I'm in doubt. It must look rubbish, but hey-ho, saves months of physio.

Thanks due also, to the many leaders that have taken the trouble to learn how to do difficult drops safely, ask for permission, and seek feedback rather than blaming the follower when things go wrong. There are some fab leaders who just make me feel so safe & secure when doing a drop, it's like floating down on a cloud.

Anyway, drops seem to be going out of fashion a bit. Not that I've been dancing much to know! It has struck me that they're not quite as ubiquitous as they used to be. Or is it that I'm getting to the stage where I look as though I might break if anyone tried one!

bigdjiver
4th-January-2009, 10:19 AM
Do not try this at home, or anywhere else.

If I lie flat on the floor (imaginary photo 1) even I can raise myself to the sitting position just using my trunk muscles.

If part way through doing this I was to throw my head backwards, thrust my pelvis upwards and dig my heels into the floor I think my head would hit the floor very hard and do damage.

A fraction of a second before this occurred I think I might be able to be, for a minute fraction of a second, in a position where my body was straight and only my heels were touching the floor. (imaginary photo 2)

It would appear to be impossible to get from photo 1 to photo 2.

I surmise that doing the same trunk movement from the ballroom drop position could be sufficient to raise the backside off the heel sufficiently high and reduce the weight upon it sufficiently to allow the bent leg enough advantage for someone perfectly toned and carrying no excess weight to rise from the ballroom drop position unassisted.

It would help in this if the spare arm started parallel to the "supporting" arm and was brought down to the side.

All theory, do not try.

bigdjiver
4th-January-2009, 10:24 AM
{after 15 minutes of trying to copy NZ monkey, I have a sore knee :( } ... There is a long history of the scientific brain leading its owner into peril, or even doom. (mea culpa). Can you trace any relationship to Franklin, Benjamin, who, amongst many other things, flew kites during thunderstorms?

ant
4th-January-2009, 10:58 AM
Easily Led, unfortunately I have not been able to find any dips and drops workshops coming up near you (I think you live near Northampton). Maybe someone else will have better luck.

The earliest one I can see is on 8 March at Shrewsbury but this is an 11/2 hour drive for you. Heres the link

http://www.cerocshrewsbury.com/

I have also seen that Howard Temple is teaching at the next Southport Ceroc weekender. If you are going it may be worth getting in touch with him to see if he could include that drop in his class if he is going to be doing a drops class. He normally does but I suspect it depends on his rotation of drops being taught at weekenders generally. This is his link

http://www.howardandnicola.com/

Unfortunately his next Drops Zone workshop is not scheduled until October but he is a good teacher for this sort of thing.

My local Tango class is putting on a series of Dips, Drops and Aerials workshops in March over a three week period, the entries and exits may be more Tango specific but the techiques within the moves will be the same. They have not yet given out a schedule but if you are interested let me know and I can keep you informed.

Finally the best DVD I have seen on Dips and Drops is by Peter Philips, here is is link

http://www.peterphillips.dj/dvd.html

but I would not even think about buying them until you have been on a good workshop

Agente Secreto
4th-January-2009, 03:56 PM
Finally the best DVD I have seen on Dips and Drops is by Peter Philips, here is is link

http://www.peterphillips.dj/dvd.html

but I would not even think about buying them until you have been on a good workshop

Been off-line for a while and missed some good discussions.

These are good DVDs but you're right about even these being a poor substitute for attending a small class taught by someone that knows what they're doing so can focus on correcting errors. Also the Ballroom Drop is not included in the 60+ moves that Peter Philips teaches funnily enough - for that you need to buy the Modern Jive Toolkit by John Sweeney which has a very thorough 'lesson' on the Ballroom Drop (amongst lots of other good stuff as well). http://www.modernjive.com/tmjt.html
I personally don't like dips 'n drops workshops at weekenders - I've seen the results of a couple of these at Southport turning half competent leads and follows onto the main floor with callous disregard for life and limb.

As to the whole thing of the follow (contortionists excluded since I've yet to dance with one at an MJ venue) taking all of their own weight I cannot see how this is possible in a full ballroom drop (final position as shown in the attached still captured from the John Sweeney DVD mentioned above). My knowledge of simple engineering mechanics tells me that if the follow gets down to the horizontal it doesn't matter what they do with their legs because the centre of mass will always be outside the position of the legs and without some other form of support (i.e. a lead taking a portion of their weight) then down they go - 'ye canna change the laws of physics Captain':really:. In the photo, even if the follow (Karen Sweeney in this case) had her right leg bent to the most acute of angles the majority of her body is outside the placement of the feet and without John's support she's on the floor! Hence of course the very strong upright stance that John adopts in the image.

I am someone that does use dips and drops in normal dancing and in any of the deep drops I expect to take a portion of my follows weight - which is why I only do the deep moves with people I trust are comfortable with the rather exposed situation they leave themselves in with regard to trusting me to keep them safe!:cool:

Diana, happy to find a quiet corner next time I see you at a freestyle and show you how I do the Ballroom Drop - the way I was taught in a small workshop when I was a newbie corresponds almost exactly with the way John Sweeney teaches it in his DVD and it is very safe and controlled.


Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

Koshka
29th-January-2009, 01:55 PM
This may sound like an odd question, but does anyone have any tips for how to get over the mental block I have when it comes to leaning backwards.

I can do dips and drops, (though again it depends on the guy) and lots of good dancers have tried to help me but I just panic when it comes to the ballroom drop. I have been on a dips and drops course but it wasn't covered and we were short of time so couldn't really ask to do it as well. I'm near enough 6'0 which I think is a fair part of my issue but I really want to be able to do them. Any tips? Thanks

Barry
29th-January-2009, 02:05 PM
This may sound like an odd question, but does anyone have any tips for how to get over the mental block I have when it comes to leaning backwards.

I can do dips and drops, (though again it depends on the guy) and lots of good dancers have tried to help me but I just panic when it comes to the ballroom drop. I have been on a dips and drops course but it wasn't covered and we were short of time so couldn't really ask to do it as well. I'm near enough 6'0 which I think is a fair part of my issue but I really want to be able to do them. Any tips? Thanks


it is a very difficult one! the 1st thing is that a guy/ leader should always ask if you do drops! He should then do a couple of leans / testing drops at which point you should both know whether this is comfortable for you!
the most important thing is to take your weight when being lowered then that way you have more control & confidence. You should be able to feel if the guy lowering you is capable of holding you. if the answer is no then don't allow him to lower you any lower than you feel comfortable - and by taking your weight you can control this! I think the answer is to find someone who is capable of doing a well executed ballroom drop ( i am one of those!) then they should demonstrate how well it can be done and this will then help build your confidence!

If you are ever going to a weekender that i am on then perhaps i could help you with this issue as i have been doing / teaching drops for 8 yrs and can hopefully show you the correct technique / method.

Koshka
29th-January-2009, 02:14 PM
I'd love you forever if you would, I'll be at Skeggy if you're going :)

But yea the guys who have been trying are all very capable and have shown me with other partners what to do and how to do it. I just have a wonderful rabbit in the headlights kinda look (ask MartinGold he got to see it on Saturday).

Barry
29th-January-2009, 02:19 PM
I'd love you forever if you would, I'll be at Skeggy if you're going :)

But yea the guys who have been trying are all very capable and have shown me with other partners what to do and how to do it. I just have a wonderful rabbit in the headlights kinda look (ask MartinGold he got to see it on Saturday).


i will indeed be @ Eclipse - perhaps rather than being shown you allow me to help you! i'm 6ft 4 & 17 stone which may help you with the confidence that i can hold you!:clap:

we'll sort out details of how to meet nearer the time if you like! :waycool:

martingold
29th-January-2009, 03:25 PM
I'd love you forever if you would, I'll be at Skeggy if you're going :)

But yea the guys who have been trying are all very capable and have shown me with other partners what to do and how to do it. I just have a wonderful rabbit in the headlights kinda look (ask MartinGold he got to see it on Saturday).

:lol:
your a really nice dancer koshka so dont you worry bout any rabbit in the headlights look
i had some really fun dances with you

are you going to blissfully blues?? if so have a word with batgirl she will tell you i am a strong lead in the ballroom drop and can do it to any height safely

whatever happens the decision to do the drop should (as it was with me on saturday) always be the follows and no pressure should ever be applied by the lead

David Franklin
29th-January-2009, 05:26 PM
This may sound like an odd question, but does anyone have any tips for how to get over the mental block I have when it comes to leaning backwards.If it's a real mental block, you might want to try doing the drop with a soft landing surface (anything from carpet through to grass to a full-on crash mat depending on just how nervous you are). Or possibly have a friend ready to spot.

You might also find what I call an "open" ballroom drop a little less intimidating. This is basically the same as a normal ballroom drop, but the hand connections are R-L and L-R so you don't have the arms crossed. Because the man can vary the distance between his hands, there are more options for controlling the tension, which helps avoid that 'It doesn't feel like he's really got me' sensation that can happen at the start of a normal ballroom drop.

Also, although it's perfectly possible for small guys to do ballroom drops well, you might find it feels safer starting off with someone you know is big and strong. I've done the ladies side of a ballroom drop a few times, and having a really big strong guy doing the lift certainly felt more secure in a "well, it doesn't really matter if I mess up my part - I'm not going to fall" kind of sense.

martingold
29th-January-2009, 07:45 PM
Also, although it's perfectly possible for small guys to do ballroom drops well, you might find it feels safer starting off with someone you know is big and strong. I've done the ladies side of a ballroom drop a few times, and having a really big strong guy doing the lift certainly felt more secure in a "well, it doesn't really matter if I mess up my part - I'm not going to fall" kind of sense.
are you calling me small????
i love you david
:lol::lol::lol:

Lory
2nd-February-2009, 09:21 AM
At 2mins48, there is a great example of a good Ballroom drop. This old lady looks almost like an ironing board! :what::worthy:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dkHvRCp3z5A&eurl

jivecat
2nd-February-2009, 10:37 AM
At 2mins48, there is a great example of a good Ballroom drop. This old lady looks almost like an ironing board! :what::worthy:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dkHvRCp3z5A&eurl

Omigod!! That was absolutely amazing. That was essence of pure plank! Her transverse abdominis must be steel reinforced. Not only that but she can bl**dy well dance.

I'm going to stop fretting about getting old (not that I was, much) and consider myself oficially inspired. Now, where are those Frankie Manning clips...?

Whitebeard
2nd-February-2009, 10:53 AM
Omigod!! That was absolutely amazing. That was essence of pure plank! Her transverse abdominis must be steel reinforced. Not only that but she can bl**dy well dance.

I'm going to stop fretting about getting old (not that I was, much) and consider myself oficially inspired. Now, where are those Frankie Manning clips...?

Nowt much wrong with her knees either !!!



(Is there a green-eyed monster frowny ??)

David Franklin
2nd-February-2009, 11:53 AM
At 2mins48, there is a great example of a good Ballroom drop. This old lady looks almost like an ironing board! :what::worthy:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dkHvRCp3z5A&eurlIf you manage to pause at the right frames, you'll see that that isn't a "textbook" ballroom drop. It isn't "bum-to-heel", and the knee comes up higher than the rest of her, breaking the line (only for a moment though). I say this not to criticise the performance, but merely to emphasise what I said before - the way people say this drop "should" be done is not the same as the way even the best performers actually do it. I can pretty much guarantee the guy's taking a fair amount of weight as well; this isn't an issue for a performance, but you might not want to emulate that technique socially.

(Note also that this drop is actually a nosebleeder into what I described a couple of posts ago as an 'open' ballroom drop, rather than the standard 'Ceroc' ballroom drop).

Lory
2nd-February-2009, 12:19 PM
(Note also that this drop is actually a nosebleeder into what I described a couple of posts ago as an 'open' ballroom drop, rather than the standard 'Ceroc' ballroom drop).
Great name! :D

Yes sorry, I knew it wasn't the standard 'Ballroom drop' and should have said, I meant the position she was 'in' was a good example of what I think we were talking about on here! :flower:

David Franklin
23rd-March-2009, 04:51 PM
Sorry to both resurrect an old thread and flog a dead horse, but I saw a link to a WCS clip today, and noticed that there's a really clear example of how a top WCS pro takes her weight during a drop. Again, it's not even close to "bum to heel".

9m614IZNc5o

Phil_dB
23rd-March-2009, 05:06 PM
Been off-line for a while and missed some good discussions.

These are good DVDs but you're right about even these being a poor substitute for attending a small class taught by someone that knows what they're doing so can focus on correcting errors. Also the Ballroom Drop is not included in the 60+ moves that Peter Philips teaches funnily enough - for that you need to buy the Modern Jive Toolkit by John Sweeney which has a very thorough 'lesson' on the Ballroom Drop (amongst lots of other good stuff as well). http://www.modernjive.com/tmjt.html
I personally don't like dips 'n drops workshops at weekenders - I've seen the results of a couple of these at Southport turning half competent leads and follows onto the main floor with callous disregard for life and limb.

As to the whole thing of the follow (contortionists excluded since I've yet to dance with one at an MJ venue) taking all of their own weight I cannot see how this is possible in a full ballroom drop (final position as shown in the attached still captured from the John Sweeney DVD mentioned above). My knowledge of simple engineering mechanics tells me that if the follow gets down to the horizontal it doesn't matter what they do with their legs because the centre of mass will always be outside the position of the legs and without some other form of support (i.e. a lead taking a portion of their weight) then down they go - 'ye canna change the laws of physics Captain':really:. In the photo, even if the follow (Karen Sweeney in this case) had her right leg bent to the most acute of angles the majority of her body is outside the placement of the feet and without John's support she's on the floor! Hence of course the very strong upright stance that John adopts in the image.

I am someone that does use dips and drops in normal dancing and in any of the deep drops I expect to take a portion of my follows weight - which is why I only do the deep moves with people I trust are comfortable with the rather exposed situation they leave themselves in with regard to trusting me to keep them safe!:cool:

Diana, happy to find a quiet corner next time I see you at a freestyle and show you how I do the Ballroom Drop - the way I was taught in a small workshop when I was a newbie corresponds almost exactly with the way John Sweeney teaches it in his DVD and it is very safe and controlled.


Agent 000
Licensed to Dance



Funnily enough, The Modern Jive Toolkit DVD recommended above is for sale in the for sale section :D

http://www.cerocscotland.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=102&cat=6

NZ Monkey
23rd-March-2009, 08:47 PM
Sorry to both resurrect an old thread and flog a dead horse, but I saw a link to a WCS clip today, and noticed that there's a really clear example of how a top WCS pro takes her weight during a drop. Again, it's not even close to "bum to heel".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m614IZNc5o

Edit: OK, I can't get the [youtube] tag to work. Anyone got an example?Or flogging a dead monkey :na:

Seriously, I take your point there. I do. I will point out though that the first of the two drops in that clip was extremely slow, elegant and very choreographed, the second was a slide where being over the bum would be detrimental to the pattern, and Katie Boyle doesn't look like she weighs more than 45kg anyway so it's easier to get away with stuff like that.

Edit: Notice that she keeps her knees together rather than break that nice line with one knee sticking out over the top of everything else? That was one of the primary points I was trying to make earlier as well. :whistle: