PDA

View Full Version : Walking in Tango



ant
3rd-December-2008, 01:33 PM
Dilemmas, dilemmas dilemmas.

It appears that all agree Tango is about walking and this should come from your core and you should be centred and well balanced.

However that is where the agreement seems to end.

I spoke with Primative Male Tango Teacher (PMT) who said the style of your walk is dictated by the music and you express your dance through the lady who is an extension of the man. You can walk with as much or as little movement in your upper body, as dictated by your interepretation of the music. He also said that if you wanted to improve your personal skills it was a good idea to learn some African Dance because that is how the dance originated and would give you the most relevant skills.

I spoke to Ballroom Lady Tango Teacher (BLT) who said that you should walk in an upright position and have as little movement as possible in your upper body. You walk according to the rhythm of the music but the quality of your movement should be like a steamroller, consistant and relentless and with no surges in the power introduced into the walk. It would be a good idea if you could learn some ballet as this would help your balance.

I then spoke to a lady Tango dancer. she says she adjusted her walk to the way she felt the man she was dancing with wanted. My initial reaction was this was wrong but I now think this is just about the most sensible thing I have heard. But it does not explain how the man should walk.

Any thoughts?

David Bailey
3rd-December-2008, 01:55 PM
Whooo.... can of worms there....

Ghost has written a fairly long article about walking, here:
http://www.jivetango.co.uk/GhostGuide/Walking.html


It appears that all agree Tango is about walking and this should come from your core and you should be centred and well balanced.
Yup.


I spoke with Primative Male Tango Teacher (PMT) who said the style of your walk is dictated by the music and you express your dance through the lady who is an extension of the man. You can walk with as much or as little movement in your upper body, as dictated by your interepretation of the music. He also said that if you wanted to improve your personal skills it was a good idea to learn some African Dance because that is how the dance originated and would give you the most relevant skills.
Well, it's one interpretation, certainly.

It's not the way I'd do it, but that's just a reflection of the Many Taos Of Tango.


I spoke to Ballroom Lady Tango Teacher (BLT) who said that you should walk in an upright position and have as little movement as possible in your upper body.
Rubbish. Truly rubbish. I mean, what happened to dissociation?


You walk according to the rhythm of the music but the quality of your movement should be like a steamroller, consistant and relentless and with no surges in the power introduced into the walk.
Yes, I think that's sensible - the walk should be smooth and constant, with no inadvertant "power surges".


It would be a good idea if you could learn some ballet as this would help your balance.
Meh, not sure - I think learning to balance using balancing exercises is better personally. For example, Amir recommended standing on one foot for a minute at a time daily.

The thing is, this advice is (usually) not contradictory - it's just that you're getting advice on different ways of getting to the same destination, so it sounds different.

Lory
3rd-December-2008, 02:21 PM
The steamroller sounds good to me! :)

Power surges = bumping AFAIC :sick:

ant
3rd-December-2008, 02:24 PM
Rubbish. Truly rubbish. I mean, what happened to dissociation?


Are you talking about dissociation whilst walking in a straight line or whilst affecting a turn say an ocho?

If it is the former that is not advocated, if the later it is.

David Bailey
3rd-December-2008, 02:31 PM
Are you talking about dissociation whilst walking in a straight line or whilst affecting a turn say an ocho?
Both.

The former is less obvious than the latter, of course, unless you want to be called Mr WobbleWalker :D

ant
3rd-December-2008, 02:54 PM
Both.

The former is less obvious than the latter, of course...

In part that is what Primative Teacher (PMT) was saying. I am wondering if Ballroom Teacher (BLT) has just not put that into the mix in the class as yet as she feels she wants to get other qualties up to speed. I think I will have a word with her.

The thing against that though is when she has shown me videos of Tango Masters dancing she always points out the lack of movement in their upper body.

I will let you know.



Originally Posted by Lory
The steamroller sounds good to me! http://1.2.3.12/bmi/www.cerocscotland.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif




Originally Posted by David Bailey
Yes, I think that's sensible - the walk should be smooth and constant, with no inadvertant "power surges".


I agree with you both. You obviously feel this when dancing and there is a vast difference in satisfaction between a smooth quality in your partner compared to anything else.

The next question therefore is how do you affect this quality of smoothness in reality?

Lory
3rd-December-2008, 03:24 PM
The next question therefore is how do you affect this quality of smoothness in reality?

By rolling through your feet and pushing off your balls (if you pardon the expression :D), not shuffling!

Trouble
3rd-December-2008, 03:33 PM
The way ive been taught and dont laugh but i have only had two little lessons is to ensure that your upper body is slightly leaned forward with a little pressure on the partner and the upper body is to be kept in frame. All movement is from the hip down.

is this right?

ant
3rd-December-2008, 03:53 PM
By rolling through your feet and pushing off your balls (if you pardon the expression :D), not shuffling!


I don't think that rolling through the feet and pushing off your balls does give the required effect.

Rolling though the feet does have a smoothing effect but when you push off the balls of your feet does that not create small surges.

In addition when your legs are travelling and presumably your feet are no longer in contact with the floor, how do you then maintain a consistancy of smoothness.

philsmove
3rd-December-2008, 03:56 PM
Apart from Balloon room Tango lady

All the advice is similar to what I have been taught. Most of the better teachers, acknowledge there are different ways to Tango. Yesterday's advice was : You , the leader, have invited the lady to dance and its up to to you to accommodate her style and embrace

ant
3rd-December-2008, 03:58 PM
The way ive been taught and dont laugh but i have only had two little lessons is to ensure that your upper body is slightly leaned forward with a little pressure on the partner and the upper body is to be kept in frame. All movement is from the hip down.

is this right?


Hi Trouble

I think that when you start, what you have said is correct.

However there is some debate that as you progress this may change.

David Bailey
3rd-December-2008, 03:59 PM
I don't think that rolling through the feet and pushing off your balls does give the required effect.
No, Lory's right, it works. It helps to smooth things out.


Rolling though the feet does have a smoothing effect but when you push off the balls of your feet does that not create small surges.
Yes... but that's something you need to adjust for in other ways. I'm not actually sure if I can describe it in writing though...


In addition when your legs are travelling and presumably your feet are no longer in contact with the floor, how do you then maintain a consistancy of smoothness.
One obvious way to compensate is to not raise your feet (much) off the floor.

tsh
3rd-December-2008, 04:19 PM
It's only walking... How hard can it be?

ant
3rd-December-2008, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by David Bailey
Yes... but that's something you need to adjust for in other ways. I'm not actually sure if I can describe it in writing though...

I have been taught that as far as possible you keep the weight of your body directly over the hips. To move forward you move the leg forward from the hip whilst still maintaining contact with the floor with your foot and at the same time maintaining a consistancy of position between body and hip. Once you have moved as far as you can you then allow the foot to move a bit further and at that time move the body over the hips again. Then repeat the process on the other foot. This method reduces the powers surges that would otherwise come about by pushing off the foot.



Originally Posted by David Bailey
One obvious way to compensate is to not raise your feet (much) off the floor.


I think we agree here. I think as far as possible when the leg is moving to allow the foot to retain connection with the floor is a good thing.

martingold
3rd-December-2008, 04:23 PM
It's only walking... How hard can it be?
just need to put one foot in front of the other dont you?
these tango types make it much too complicated cos they afraid we will all want to try it

ant
3rd-December-2008, 04:24 PM
It's only walking... How hard can it be?

Wouldn't you believe it.

I reckon thats why you went the sensible option and took up WCS.:respect:




Originally Posted by Martingold
just need to put one foot in front of the other dont you?
these tango types make it much too complicated cos they afraid we will all want to try it


Still sure you want to take up Tango, Martin?

David Bailey
3rd-December-2008, 04:50 PM
just need to put one foot in front of the other dont you?
these tango types make it much too complicated cos they afraid we will all want to try it
It's true. It's all just a conspiracy, actually it's easy as pie to do. :wink:

Don't tell anyone...

martingold
3rd-December-2008, 04:58 PM
Still sure you want to take up Tango, Martin?
after seeing you dance it ant???? :worthy::worthy:

rubyred
3rd-December-2008, 05:04 PM
It's only walking... How hard can it be?


If only if only !!..............and us girls have to do it backwards and in high heels....tilting the pelvis as we walk forward and opening the pelvis as we walk backwards......moving off from the standing leg..........relaxing the shoulders........and more and more ........sheesh !!!

ant
3rd-December-2008, 05:18 PM
....tilting the pelvis as we walk forward and opening the pelvis as we walk backwards......

Hi Ruby

I have been checking that out as well.

I have been told not to worry about moving the position of the pelvis but just concentrate on keeping the body above the hips and then retaining that same reletive position of the pelvis to the body.

Its this BerkoTango thing. DB asked me to help out with.

He said he had about 10 ladies all to himself and as much as he would like to have kept it that way it was getting to much for him.

So I did help and then I get asked questions that I don't know the answer to, none of us do really. So now I get grumpy instead of him. Havn't you noticed how much he has cheered up lately.

rubyred
3rd-December-2008, 05:28 PM
I have been told not to worry about moving the position of the pelvis but just concentrate on keeping the body above the hips and then retaining that same reletive position of the pelvis to the body.

Its this BerkoTango thing. DB asked me to help out with.

So I did help and then I get asked questions that I don't know the answer to, none of us do really. So now I get grumpy instead of him. Havn't you noticed how much he has cheered up lately.
This is what I was told the other day at the Women's Technique Workshop, but you know different teachers have different perspectives.:confused:
As for DB he sounds like he knows what he is talking about too, and I am looking forward to being walked by him. :waycool: And yes he is rather cheerful, and that's definitely a good sign in tango where we are often accused of looking miserable all the time, however inside we are feeling mmmm quite deliciously:nice:, and in my opinion sexy, romantic and passionate, well those feelings will always make me feel cheerful, I expect others might feel the same.:clap:

ant
3rd-December-2008, 05:31 PM
This is what I was told the other day at the Women's Technique Workshop, but you know different teachers have different perspectives.:confused:


RR maybe we should make that class on Saturday.

I think the teacher will be there and we can find these things out together.

rubyred
3rd-December-2008, 05:35 PM
Maybe we should make that class on Saturday.

I think the teacher will be there and we can find these things out together.
Look forward to it.:flower:

David Bailey
3rd-December-2008, 05:41 PM
So I did help and then I get asked questions that I don't know the answer to, none of us do really. So now I get grumpy instead of him. Havn't you noticed how much he has cheered up lately.
:D

I think one of the difficult things to internalise when learning AT is that there are dozens of ways to get to a destination. And when you get two different sets of advice from two different people, it's quite possible that neither set is "wrong" - they're just using different routes.

Amir hammered that point home during the recent tango course, and I think I'm now reasonably comfortable with the concept - but I spent a long time whingeing about how I was taught (e.g.) many many different ways to lead a cross.

So in other words: don't worry, be happy.

rubyred
3rd-December-2008, 05:48 PM
:D


So in other words: don't worry, be happy.


Yep! definitley cheerful :eek::D

ant
3rd-December-2008, 05:53 PM
:D

I think one of the difficult things to internalise when learning AT is that there are dozens of ways to get to a destination. So in other words: don't worry, be happy.

Thanks for that.

DB as regards the other part of the OP regarding the lady changing the way she walks to match the man. Any thoughts on that.

David Bailey
3rd-December-2008, 05:56 PM
Thanks for that.

DB as regards the other part of the OP regarding the lady changing the way she walks to match the man. Any thoughts on that.
It sounds reasonable, at least in "potential journey route" terms, but I'd prefer to hear from an experienced follower.

Lory
3rd-December-2008, 06:02 PM
It sounds reasonable, at least in "potential journey route" terms, but I'd prefer to hear from an experienced follower.

It sounds reasonable but not if the man's doing the ministry of funny walks and looks like a chicken! :devil:

Trouble
3rd-December-2008, 06:25 PM
Yep! definitley cheerful :eek::D

Dont trust him Rosie..... he is the devil in cheerful clothing.:wink:

mshedgehog
3rd-December-2008, 11:58 PM
It sounds reasonable, at least in "potential journey route" terms, but I'd prefer to hear from an experienced follower.

I can't find the original reference so I'm not totally sure what this is about, but I adjust the length of my stride to what is led.

And I move in a way that's appropriate to his interpretation of the music. For someone who can really dance milonga as milonga, we will both be moving in a different style - if he just does milonga as fast tango, then I'll do it as fast tango too.

Basically if I don't move in the same style and take strides of the appropriate length, I'll break the connection, so it's not like there's a rule about matching my walk to his, it's just that it's my job to keep the connection and that necessarily means I have to do these things and will naturally do so anyway.

There are also some related 'defensive following' options. If he steers me with his arms or hurls me about violently, I throw a lot of extra energy into my movements and lengthen my stride, and that usually calms him down so we can have a reasonable dance.

Jay Jay
16th-December-2008, 02:36 AM
Its this BerkoTango thing. DB asked me to help out with.

He said he had about 10 ladies all to himself and as much as he would like to have kept it that way it was getting to much for him.

So I did help and then I get asked questions that I don't know the answer to, none of us do really. So now I get grumpy instead of him. Havn't you noticed how much he has cheered up lately.

:rofl:Anyone would get grumpy having ten women to please, but you both handle it so well :respect:

jivecat
16th-December-2008, 01:02 PM
DB as regards the other part of the OP regarding the lady changing the way she walks to match the man. Any thoughts on that.

I can't see that there's any other option, unless you want to be a wayward and uncooperative follower, i.e. not really a follower at all. Under duress I sometimes resort to this.:blush:

It's not rocket science, in any form of dance the woman has to fit in, broadly speaking, with the man's style of dance.

I think I have read that the timing of moves is greatly influenced by the woman and this would certainly apply to the walk, without usurping the lead unduly.

As for the style of walk, mirroring comes into play. If I was dancing with a man who had a very dramatic walking style with lots of attitude it would be hard not to try to match that, for example. Likewise, if I was dancing with a man with an understated kind of style it would look absurd if I was dancing with a metaphorical rose between the teeth.

rubyred
16th-December-2008, 01:21 PM
I can't find the original reference so I'm not totally sure what this is about, but I adjust the length of my stride to what is led.

And I move in a way that's appropriate to his interpretation of the music. For someone who can really dance milonga as milonga, we will both be moving in a different style - if he just does milonga as fast tango, then I'll do it as fast tango too.

Basically if I don't move in the same style and take strides of the appropriate length, I'll break the connection, so it's not like there's a rule about matching my walk to his, it's just that it's my job to keep the connection and that necessarily means I have to do these things and will naturally do so anyway.



:yeah:

This is what my teacher has advised me to do, when walking my step should match that of the leader, to walk using the core muscle strength to lengthen the leg and maintain the A frame,and not bending the free leg first:sick:, and to move off from the standing leg, trying to keep the movement smooth and not bouncy.

Well that's the theory, the practical takes a lot of repetition to get right and remembering until it becomes, hopefully second nature.

Gadget
16th-December-2008, 02:47 PM
I'm sure I was taught that you should be balanced on the weight bearing foot, then reach over the floor with the ball of the leading foot to place it where you need it, then ease the weight onto it until it is the balanced bearing foot, then return the trailing foot and send it out to the next step...

Basically your weight should always be on one foot or the other with the transition only being applied once the placement is determined.

... but I've only done a couple of classes and may be talking nonsense. :)

Bibi
1st-January-2009, 01:12 PM
but I adjust the length of my stride to what is led.

And I move in a way that's appropriate to his interpretation of the music.

it's just that it's my job to keep the connection ....

If he steers me with his arms or hurls me about violently, I throw a lot of extra energy into my movements and lengthen my stride, and that usually calms him down so we can have a reasonable dance.

Music interpretation, connection, energy - and all led.

Last week at BerkoTango, Kate (I think her name was Kate, if not, apologies!) demonstrated walking for a follower. I was challenged. The motion as I understood it, is as follows


stride forward with her non-weight bearing leg bent (no problem there)
begin to straighten as you approach the floor and the foot movement is with heel towards floor. The foot meets with the floor first, followed by the balls of your foot (problem here!) (the weight shift is felt in heel first)
I've always done step 2 with balls of feet first, whether in a forward or backward motion. That said, my frame is slightly titled forward, be it in close or open embrace, so it's natural for me to change weight with the balls of my feet and not my heel.

I may be wrong, but it feels more natural for me, dictated ofcourse by my posture. I may have to adjust my posture, maybe not. It also occured to me that I'm rarely ever just walking forward - by this I mean, I'm either led to do Giro's or Ocho's if driven forward.

Thoughts?

Walking in Tango - mangled in translation!

:flower: Bibi

mshedgehog
1st-January-2009, 07:05 PM
... I may be wrong, but it feels more natural for me, dictated ofcourse by my posture. I may have to adjust my posture, maybe not. It also occured to me that I'm rarely ever just walking forward - by this I mean, I'm either led to do Giro's or Ocho's if driven forward.

Thoughts?...

It makes a big difference whether you're walking forwards or backwards. When walking forwards - rare for the follower - the outside of the foot, and the heel, naturally come down first. Backwards it's the opposite - inside and ball of foot or toes.

We don't get much practice walking forwards. I got to a point where I noticed that I could walk backwards in high heels quite well, but my forward steps were clumsy. I bought a high pair of street shoes and wore them to work a few times. My colleagues were a bit surprised, and they're not as comfy as dancing shoes, but it gave my brain a chance to work it out.

I've had a few quite challenging classes where we just walked around to the music without a partner. It's definitely useful. It feels really wobbly.