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David Bailey
15th-November-2008, 10:06 PM
Moved from the discrimination thread - David


DB commented that in the archane world of Tango, women still sit out all night waiting to be asked.
I did? I can't remember what we were arguing about now - I'm sure it was important at the time though.

To expand on the "planchadora" thing - Tango's not (I think) a particularly snooty dance scene. You get the same attitudes in all dances in my experience.

But Tango does categorise things more often, and codify them - whereas in other scenes, the cultural aspects are more informal (but probably no different).

So, for example, you have the "codigos", or "codes", for asking someone to dance (and for accepting / rejecting the offer) in a non-verbal and non-humiliating way.

Like I said, all partner dance scenes have this problem - why do you think dance cards were invented for ballroom dancing? - but AT's more formalised or documented.


Unbelievable. This is the 21st century is it not?:angry:
Nah - If you want to see some really nasty behaviour, try a Central London salsa club on a Saturday night.

Astro
16th-November-2008, 01:32 PM
So, for example, you have the "codigos", or "codes", for asking someone to dance (and for accepting / rejecting the offer) in a non-verbal and non-humiliating way.
What are they and would they work at MJ, whilst still keeping the female and male askee option? Or is it insider knowledge?

Like I said, all partner dance scenes have this problem - why do you think dance cards were invented for ballroom dancing? - but AT's more formalised or documented.

Do they still use dance cards at ballroom dancing? If so, do they hang from the wrist? The old ones are collectors items now.

Nah - If you want to see some really nasty behaviour, try a Central London salsa club on a Saturday night.

I went to Salsa once in Hackney and it was very friendly. The venue is boarded up now though.
I suppose the West End would be more cut throat.

David Bailey
17th-November-2008, 12:09 PM
What are they and would they work at MJ, whilst still keeping the female and male askee option?
Probably not. In fact, I'm not even convinced they work in AT in the UK...


Or is it insider knowledge?
Hardly - here's some links:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27211
http://sallycat.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/when-tango-cultures-cross/
http://jantango.wordpress.com/category/codigos/

stewart38
17th-November-2008, 12:36 PM
DB commented that in the archane world of Tango, women still sit out all night waiting to be asked.

Unbelievable. This is the 21st century is it not?:angry:

:yeah:

You would think they would at least get you a drink while they 'wait their turn', but hardly ever :sad:

Astro
17th-November-2008, 01:37 PM
Probably not. In fact, I'm not even convinced they work in AT in the UK...


Hardly - here's some links:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27211
http://sallycat.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/when-tango-cultures-cross/
http://jantango.wordpress.com/category/codigos/

I've read a few, but still in the dark about what a cabeceo is.:doh:

Interesting codigo - the "thankyou" or should they say gracias?

If the male or female dancer is not happy they can curtail a dance by saying "thankyou"
That would be a nice get out clause for a female stuck with a groper.

David Bailey
17th-November-2008, 03:21 PM
I've read a few, but still in the dark about what a cabeceo is.:doh:
It's the non-verbal "You dancin'? You askin'? I'm askin'. I'm dancin'" exchange, all done with the eyes across a crowded room. Apparently.

Gav
17th-November-2008, 03:26 PM
If the male or female dancer is not happy they can curtail a dance by saying "thankyou"
That would be a nice get out clause for a female stuck with a groper.

Really? :eek: I would have thought that would just encourage them. As in "she always says thank you when I cop a feel as we dance", she must like it. :wink:

David Bailey
17th-November-2008, 03:29 PM
Really? :eek: I would have thought that would just encourage them. As in "she always says thank you when I cop a feel as we dance", she must like it. :wink:

It's more like "Thank you and goodbye" - the bit in bold is silent.

Good tip for MJ-ers: don't say "Thank you" after the first dance

CJ
17th-November-2008, 04:18 PM
Good tip for MJ-ers: don't say "Thank you" after the first dance

Some advice is better late than never...:doh::blush::banghead:

philsmove
17th-November-2008, 05:02 PM
Women can and do ask men to dance

Jivecat asked me for a dance at a recent Milonga, although we had in fact never met before, she was the third lady to ask me that day

She also, very polity, reminded me tango is danced in Tandas

jivecat
18th-November-2008, 12:15 AM
Women can and do ask men to dance

Jivecat asked me for a dance at a recent Milonga, although we had in fact never met before, she was the third lady to ask me that day

She also, very polity, reminded me tango is danced in Tandas

I did? But they don't have tandas at the Mango, do they?

I asked you because I knew you came from an MJ background, therefore would be able to cope without cringing embarrassment at being importuned by a female to dance - which is a response I have received in some quarters! I know my place now - sitting on the benches chatting to the other tangueras, which luckily, I find very rewarding.

Using the cabeceo is the most technically difficult part of tango I have so far encountered. I can see that it would work well as a means of picking and choosing partners so that you get to look good on the dance floor and only have dances you enjoy whilst saving face all round. Trouble is, I am completely rubbish at it - it only works with people I know really well and would be quite happy to ask anyway because I know they wouldn't turn me down. But in some quarters in UK it seems to be a major way of getting dances.

Lory
18th-November-2008, 12:47 AM
I found this.. http://tangoinhereyes.blogspot.com/2007/11/tips-for-success-with-cabeceo.html :what:

Wow, it appears I've been doing it all wrong :doh:

:D

jivecat
18th-November-2008, 01:14 AM
Wow, it appears I've been doing it all wrong :doh:

:D

Too right! I think I've been missing out the staring intently at the intended prey bit. It's just so not British, is it? The tip about having a reserve or two as back-up was a good one, though. Shame they didn't say exactly how many seconds of intense staring had to be done before falling back on Choice B. Or whether blinking invalidates the process. Latest tango worry - will my eyeballs dry out before Sr. Dios de Bailar gets to ground zero, 53.78cm in front of me?

Yes, indeedy, I'll just take a stopwatch, notebook and tape measure along to my next milonga and I'll be saying goodbye to the plancha forever.


So the wisdom that says everyone sees everything in a milonga is especially applicable here. The milongueros have spent so many years watching each other, that they seem almost telepathic.If this is true, then the main justification for the cabeceo - that we can all hide our humiliating knock-backs, and the fact that we've dished them out - seems to be taken away.

Lory
18th-November-2008, 10:00 AM
Latest tango worry - will my eyeballs dry out before Sr. Dios de Bailar gets to ground zero, 53.78cm in front of me?

:lol::worthy::cheers:

David Bailey
18th-November-2008, 10:48 AM
If this is true, then the main justification for the cabeceo - that we can all hide our humiliating knock-backs, and the fact that we've dished them out - seems to be taken away.
My personal view is that the cabaceo doesn't exist in the UK, at least not at most venues and in the way it's traditionally described.

I reckon if you use a similar etiquette to ask a woman to dance in AT as you do within MJ, you'll be fine.

jivecat
18th-November-2008, 11:23 AM
My personal view is that the cabaceo doesn't exist in the UK, at least not at most venues and in the way it's traditionally described.

I reckon if you use a similar etiquette to ask a woman to dance in AT as you do within MJ, you'll be fine.

I have known some men use it and advocate it as a good thing. But yes, it's probably not used that much. The tango events I have been to are generally small and intimate where people know each other anyway, so dance invitations often spring from general socialising, and people know who will happily dance with them - or not.

However, if women use the same etiquette to ask men to dance as they would at an MJ event, then I do not think they will necessarily be fine - it might be OK, but they might easily get a turndown, a brush off or a very frosty charity dance. Sure, this happens in MJ but there seems to me that there is no question that the MJ scene is more relaxed and open, especially in big events where most people are strangers to one another.

philsmove
18th-November-2008, 01:51 PM
...However, if women use the same etiquette to ask men to dance as they would at an MJ event, then I do not think they will necessarily be fine - it might be OK, but they might easily get a turndown, a brush off or a very frosty charity dance. .:hug:

This does not seem to happen in Bristol may be because so many of us come from MJ

I think men maybe reluctant to ask strangers for a dance because of the three dance etiquette
In MJ even if you ask or get asked by someone you don’t get on with, you are only with them for one 3 minuet dance (I am very carful who I ask, if sweet home Chicago is played)

mshedgehog
18th-November-2008, 10:47 PM
My personal view is that the cabaceo doesn't exist in the UK, at least not at most venues and in the way it's traditionally described.

It is actually used quite a bit, but I only use it with people I know, or people I can confidently predict will use it (e.g. visitors who do not speak English well, or locals in a place where I do not speak the language well).

I have difficulty making it work with anyone I don't feel very confident asking, because I get embarrassed before I can hold the gaze for long enough, and that sabotages it completely.

Astro
20th-November-2008, 03:07 PM
Good tip for MJ-ers: don't say "Thank you" after the first dance
So does the Codigo happen mid dance or at the end of the first or second of the 3 dances in the Tanda?



I have difficulty making it work with anyone I don't feel very confident asking, because I get embarrassed before I can hold the gaze for long enough, and that sabotages it completely.

What about Argentinians with squints?

philsmove
20th-November-2008, 03:33 PM
Tango Dictionary (http://www.portalatango.com/encyclo/dictionary_t.shtml)

Cabeceo (see also Codigos)
From la cabeza (f) -- head: Traditional technique for selecting dance partners from a distance at the milongas in Buenos Aires by using eye contact and head movements.
The cabeceo makes the invitation to dance less stressful as it allows the invited person to decline discretely.
Non-verbal cues are frequently used. So, as you are getting ready to ask someone to dance, try to catch their eye, smile and nod. You might raise your eyebrows in an inquiring expression or directing a nod towards the dance floor. Observe their body language. For instance, if you make eye-contact and the other person quickly turns away, pretends not to see you, or busies themselves in some way, it means they do not want to dance. On the other hand, if your potential partner returns your eye-contact with a smile and/or a nod, you are encouraged to invite them verbally (ie. "would you like to dance?").
When inviting a person who is in the presence of their significant other, it is courteous to ask their significant other for permission. Be friendly but not flirtatious and avoid dance moves that are sexually suggestive. Avoid monopolizing anyone’s partner with multiple tandas (see Tanda in The Tango Dictionary).

Tanda
A set of dance music, usually three to five songs, of the same dance in similar style, if not by the same orquesta. The tandas are separated by a brief interlude of non tango music called a “cortina”, or curtain, during which couples select each other. It is customary to dance the entire tanda with the same partner unless the man is rude or very disappointing as a dance partner, in which case the lady may say gracias (thank you) and leave. See Codigos, Cortina

David Bailey
20th-November-2008, 03:36 PM
So does the Codigo happen mid dance or at the end of the first or second of the 3 dances in the Tanda?

Not sure what you're asking here?

"Codigos" = "Codes"; it's the generic name for the various cultural conventions of the dance.
"Cabaceo" = "the 'You askin' bit"; this is the non-verbal way of asking and accepting / refusing a dance. The "cabaceo" is one of the "Codigos" - and obviously, happens before the dance starts :)

I'm not sure if there's a specific name for the "thank you" convention...?

TA Guy
20th-November-2008, 03:39 PM
Far be it for me to critcise a dance which is basically a version of pole dancing where each dancer takes turns in being the pole (just kidding DB :)) but this seems to me to be a perfect example of what can go wrong when you structure a dance too much. Too many rules, too many conventions. Asking someone to dance is not that difficult. Honest.


Tango Dictionary (http://www.portalatango.com/encyclo/dictionary_t.shtml)

Cabeceo (see also Codigos)
From la cabeza (f) -- head: Traditional technique for selecting dance partners from a distance at the milongas in Buenos Aires by using eye contact and head movements.
The cabeceo makes the invitation to dance less stressful as it allows the invited person to decline discretely.
Non-verbal cues are frequently used. So, as you are getting ready to ask someone to dance, try to catch their eye, smile and nod. You might raise your eyebrows in an inquiring expression or directing a nod towards the dance floor. Observe their body language. For instance, if you make eye-contact and the other person quickly turns away, pretends not to see you, or busies themselves in some way, it means they do not want to dance. On the other hand, if your potential partner returns your eye-contact with a smile and/or a nod, you are encouraged to invite them verbally (ie. "would you like to dance?").
When inviting a person who is in the presence of their significant other, it is courteous to ask their significant other for permission. Be friendly but not flirtatious and avoid dance moves that are sexually suggestive. Avoid monopolizing anyone’s partner with multiple tandas (see Tanda in The Tango Dictionary).

Tanda
A set of dance music, usually three to five songs, of the same dance in similar style, if not by the same orquesta. The tandas are separated by a brief interlude of non tango music called a “cortina”, or curtain, during which couples select each other. It is customary to dance the entire tanda with the same partner unless the man is rude or very disappointing as a dance partner, in which case the lady may say gracias (thank you) and leave. See Codigos, Cortina

Astro
20th-November-2008, 03:43 PM
Not sure what you're asking here?

"Codigos" = "Codes"; it's the generic name for the various cultural conventions of the dance.
"Cabaceo" = "the 'You askin' bit"; this is the non-verbal way of asking and accepting / refusing a dance. The "cabaceo" is one of the "Codigos" - and obviously, happens before the dance starts :)

I'm not sure if there's a specific name for the "thank you" convention...?

Maybe "faux pas"? That was mentioned by a poster on the other forum link. That's a French word though.

Bibi
20th-November-2008, 04:07 PM
Maybe "faux pas"? That was mentioned by a poster on the other forum link. That's a French word though.



Not sure what you're asking here?

"Codigos" = "Codes"; it's the generic name for the various cultural conventions of the dance.
"Cabaceo" = "the 'You askin' bit"; this is the non-verbal way of asking and accepting / refusing a dance. The "cabaceo" is one of the "Codigos" - and obviously, happens before the dance starts :)

I'm not sure if there's a specific name for the "thank you" convention...?

You may be right - I've not come across this in class (we had an Etiquette class once at the Crypt! It was enlightening!)

There are many ways to say "thankyou" - it just so happens that I generally get pecked on the cheeks. However, I've "heard" that it can also be used as a "code" to dance with someone else or stop dancing with current partner i.e. say Thank you instaed of "Its been lovely, however, I'd like dance with someone else now".

The thing is, when it happens, one never knows whether you are being sincere :rolleyes: I prefer the peck on the cheeks ..... but again depends how the dance went and whether a 'connection' was present.

Bibi :flower:

David Bailey
20th-November-2008, 04:45 PM
Far be it for me to critcise a dance which is basically a version of pole dancing where each dancer takes turns in being the pole (just kidding DB :))
Actually, that's not a totally silly description. But the shoes are nicer in Tango.


but this seems to me to be a perfect example of what can go wrong when you structure a dance too much. Too many rules, too many conventions. Asking someone to dance is not that difficult. Honest.
FWIW, I agree - and I think Tango in the UK should develop it's own, more informal, conventions. Cultural conventions that work in Argentina - or that worked in 19th-century Argentina - may not transfer well to 21st-Century London.

And the UK scene is IMO too much in awe of Everything That Comes From Argentina - when frankly some of it is just rubbish.

philsmove
20th-November-2008, 05:10 PM
....Too many rules, too many conventions..

Nobody "owns" Tango so there are no rules, but in order for every one to get on, no matter what part of the world they come from, there is an etiquette

There is no rule to say you cannot dance clockwise round the room, but as every one else is going anti clockwise, its is better to follow convention

If you visit Thailand you can shake hands, but it is polite to wai

Tango etiquette is different from MJ ( although having a shower and putting on a clean shirt is greatly appreciated in both cultures) You are the visitor . when in Rome :flower:

philsmove
20th-November-2008, 05:18 PM
And the UK scene is IMO too much in awe of Everything That Comes From Argentina - when frankly some of it is just rubbish.
Yes and slowly thing are changing. In Bristol we are lucky, one class teaches a rigid Argentinean etiquette, the other is more relaxed and women definitely ask men to dance, but both both go anti claockwise round the room

David Bailey
20th-November-2008, 05:30 PM
Yes and slowly thing are changing. In Bristol we are lucky, one class teaches a rigid Argentinean etiquette, the other is more relaxed and women definitely ask men to dance, but both both go anti claockwise round the room
Well, I wouldn't call the line-of-dance thing a convention, it's more an intrinsic part of the dance*. It's a progressive dance - that's one of the defining characteristics of the dance. Although of course there are conventions about this - but they're mainly floorcraft and suchlike. "Don't step back", that sort of thing.

And given the hold, anti-clockwise progression is the only sensible choice really.

But yes, the "women don't ask" is unfortunately one of the codigos.

Ken did an article about this area a while back, actually:
http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Articles/Rules.html

* Ummm, OK - an intrinsic part of salon style tango dancing then.

Trouble
20th-November-2008, 05:32 PM
, the other is more relaxed and women definitely ask men to dance,

OMG - you mean women arn't supposed to ask men to dance in Tango. :confused: :doh:

rubyred
20th-November-2008, 05:48 PM
OMG - you mean women arn't supposed to ask men to dance in Tango. :confused: :doh:
Hey gorgeous girl looking as good as you do I don't think that would be a problem for you ...:whistle: REALLY glad to hear you and Scarface are getting into the tango, now 20th December can't come quick enough:hug:

ant
20th-November-2008, 05:50 PM
OMG - you mean women arn't supposed to ask men to dance in Tango. :confused: :doh:

Trouble v Tango snoot.

Let me know when you are going, I will arrange a film crew, Carry On Crew move over.

Trouble
20th-November-2008, 05:51 PM
Hey gorgeous girl looking as good as you do I don't think that would be a problem for you ...:whistle: REALLY glad to hear you and Scarface are getting into the tango, now 20th December can't come quick enough:hug:

NO NO NO Ruby, dont get too excited. All we have managed to do is say,, mmmmmm we think we want to look into this more. Ive had five mins walk with David Bailey and a little dance where i did some vague ochoos or whatever you call em. Scarface is still learning some mambo moves etc with the help of lory, ant and DB..... LOL... we are struggling to find some classes before xmas so looks like new year before we can get really stuck in.

Oh and thanks for the gorgeous comment.. you can post more of them comments if ya like xxxx :D :D :D

David Bailey
20th-November-2008, 06:07 PM
Trouble v Tango snoot.
[Harry Hill]FIGHT![/Harry Hill]

To answer your question - women don't typically ask men to dance in Tango, no. But then they don't in salsa either. In fact, the MJ scene is exceptional that way.

jivecat
20th-November-2008, 08:00 PM
.


FWIW, I agree - and I think Tango in the UK should develop it's own, more informal, conventions. Cultural conventions that work in Argentina - or that worked in 19th-century Argentina - may not transfer well to 21st-Century London.

And the UK scene is IMO too much in awe of Everything That Comes From Argentina - when frankly some of it is just rubbish.

I totally agree with all of this.


Tango etiquette is different from MJ ( although having a shower and putting on a clean shirt is greatly appreciated in both cultures) You are the visitor . when in Rome It is indeed greatly appreciated. However, it has struck me that there may be a slightly more relaxed attitude towards personal hygiene in tango, perhaps because it's harder to work up a sweat. Although I don't think I've ever encountered rancid stinkers to compete with the worst MJ has to offer, it's just that tangueros don't seem to get uptight about it.

Garlic-eating seems to be positively encouraged in some tango quarters!

Trouble
21st-November-2008, 02:44 PM
Trouble v Tango snoot.

Let me know when you are going, I will arrange a film crew, Carry On Crew move over.


[Harry Hill]FIGHT![/Harry Hill]

To answer your question - women don't typically ask men to dance in Tango, no. But then they don't in salsa either. In fact, the MJ scene is exceptional that way.

I mean wots that all about. Have we gone back to the victorian days or something. I think i might have to get stuck in and bring the Tango scene into the modern world. For goodness sakes.. :eyebrow::rolleyes:

David Bailey
21st-November-2008, 02:53 PM
I mean wots that all about. Have we gone back to the victorian days or something.

Did you miss this bit:

I think Tango in the UK should develop it's own, more informal, conventions. Cultural conventions that work in Argentina - or that worked in 19th-century Argentina - may not transfer well to 21st-Century London.

In other words, I agree, it's not good.

Trouble
21st-November-2008, 02:56 PM
Did you miss this bit:


In other words, I agree, it's not good.

Blimey David... we have agreed a few times lately... thats a worry ..xx:whistle::D:flower:

ant
21st-November-2008, 02:59 PM
I mean wots that all about. Have we gone back to the victorian days or something. I think i might have to get stuck in and bring the Tango scene into the modern world. For goodness sakes.. :eyebrow::rolleyes:

Trouble, this thread started from the female/male discrimination thread as it is probabally the best example of female discrimination in dancing.

At many venues the tradition thing is a big deal, some good and some bad. Scratchy music, ladies waiting to be asked, men are supposed to behave like gentlemen, three dances at a time etc.

However things are changing with the Neuvo Tango scene and more and more western women taking it up and not prepared to accept some of the cr@p.

The best venue for the new scene is downstairs at Negracha on a Friday (the next LGTN there is on5/12) but even there some of the old traditions persist.

When Ruby and I went to Morzine they relaxed the rule on women asking because the guy that ran the festival got so much grief from the women there. So pressure for change does work.

TA Guy
21st-November-2008, 03:08 PM
Nobody "owns" Tango so there are no rules, but in order for every one to get on, no matter what part of the world they come from, there is an etiquette


You mean 'rules of etiquette' surely ? :)


Actually, that's not a totally silly description. But the shoes are nicer in Tango.


I know. I made it a joke so as to attempt not to insult anyone too much :) AT is next on my list after WCS, but I am fundmentally built not to learn two dances at once, so it has to wait for a decade or two... Nonetheless, doesn't stop me watching and admiring the excellent clips. And sometimes, that is what I see :)

philsmove
21st-November-2008, 03:19 PM
I think i might have to get stuck in and bring the Tango scene into the modern world. For goodness sakes.. :eyebrow::rolleyes:

GO FOR IT
:whip::stirring:

David Bailey
21st-November-2008, 03:31 PM
I know. I made it a joke so as to attempt not to insult anyone too much :) AT is next on my list after WCS, but I am fundmentally built not to learn two dances at once, so it has to wait for a decade or two
That's actually pretty much my attitude towards WCS - it looks nice but I can only learn one thing at a time.


Blimey David... we have agreed a few times lately... thats a worry ..xx:whistle::D:flower:
Nah, it just means you're naturally moving into the Submissive Tanguera Mode. As you should, of course. Now, go get me a coffee woman. :na:

Astro
21st-November-2008, 03:45 PM
I went to Salsa once in Hackney and it was very friendly. The venue is boarded up now though.
I suppose the West End would be more cut throat.




To answer your question - women don't typically ask men to dance in Tango, no. But then they don't in salsa either. In fact, the MJ scene is exceptional that way.

I didn't know! :doh: I asked quite a few guys to dance the one time I went to salsa and they all accepted.
Is WSC the same?

I think i might have to get stuck in and bring the Tango scene into the modern world. For goodness sakes.. :eyebrow::rolleyes:
I agree, I wonder how they get around the female sex descrimination laws? Is it like the competative sport laws?

If MJ is the only sane dance scene, why would women want to belittle themselves by waiting on a man's whim before being allowed on the dancefloor?

Trouble, this thread started from the female/male discrimination thread as it is probabally the best example of female discrimination in dancing.

At many venues the tradition thing is a big deal, some good and some bad. Scratchy music, ladies waiting to be asked, men are supposed to behave like gentlemen, three dances at a time etc.

However things are changing with the Neuvo Tango scene and more and more western women taking it up and not prepared to accept some of the cr@p.

The best venue for the new scene is downstairs at Negracha on a Friday (the next LGTN there is on5/12) but even there some of the old traditions persist.

When Ruby and I went to Morzine they relaxed the rule on women asking because the guy that ran the festival got so much grief from the women there. So pressure for change does work.
:clap::clap::clap:

Lory
21st-November-2008, 04:00 PM
Too many rules, too many conventions. :yeah: Reading all this stuff, is actually what turns me off of going to a Milonga :sick:

I'm just not the type to be told what I can and can't do :blush:

Trouble
21st-November-2008, 04:14 PM
GO FOR IT
:whip::stirring:


Oh i will :devil:


That's actually pretty much my attitude towards WCS - it looks nice but I can only learn one thing at a time.


Nah, it just means you're naturally moving into the Submissive Tanguera Mode. As you should, of course. Now, go get me a coffee woman. :na:


Errrr can you imagine me submissive David. !! :D

rubyred
21st-November-2008, 04:21 PM
When Ruby and I went to Morzine they relaxed the rule on women asking because the guy that ran the festival got so much grief from the women there. So pressure for change does work.

:yeah:
I asked the organisor what the etiquette would be because I didn't want to sit around waiting to be asked for a dance for the duration of the holiday. They were absolutely fine with the suggestion that the women should ask the men.

At the venues I go to in the North, again women ask the men. I have also found that as people become familiar with seeing you there, they will ask you for a dance anyway.

David Bailey
21st-November-2008, 04:24 PM
I didn't know! :doh: I asked quite a few guys to dance the one time I went to salsa and they all accepted.
You're misunderstanding - or I'm not explaining correctly.

Women "can" (and IMO should) ask men to dance at Tango.

But, at the moment, mostly they just don't.

And I think this is a Bad Thing personally. I want more women to ask men (me!) to dance.

Clear?


I agree, I wonder how they get around the female sex descrimination laws? Is it like the competative sport laws?
I'm pretty sure there's no laws about who you should ask to dance, thank Christ.


If MJ is the only sane dance scene, why would women want to belittle themselves by waiting on a man's whim before being allowed on the dancefloor?
Well, blimey, why don't you ask someone who, you know, thinks this arrangement is a Good Thing? Because I don't - I'm just telling you how it mostly works at the moment.

In other words, Don't shoot the messenger, OK? :rolleyes:

That off my chest... the cabaceo, if used, makes sense - it does allow women to "ask for" and "accept / refuse" dances. It's really not discriminatory against women - if anything, it gives them the power to choose.

However, the problem I have with the cabaceo in the UK is that it is simply not used widely or consistently - a lot of women seem to mostly just sit around waiting to be asked. And I personally don't think it works well with 21st-century Western culture anyway, but possibly I'm biased, coming from the relatively rough-and-tumble world of MJ.

David Bailey
21st-November-2008, 04:25 PM
Errrr can you imagine me submissive David. !! :D
No sugars, OK?

Astro
21st-November-2008, 04:55 PM
I've read a few, but still in the dark about what a cabeceo is.:doh:



It's the non-verbal "You dancin'? You askin'? I'm askin'. I'm dancin'" exchange, all done with the eyes across a crowded room. Apparently.


You're misunderstanding - or I'm not explaining correctly.

Women "can" (and IMO should) ask men to dance at Tango. But is it a non verbal ask with the eyes?

That off my chest...(such a nice chest)
the cabaceo, if used, makes sense - it does allow women to "ask for" and "accept / refuse" dances. It's really not discriminatory against women - if anything, it gives them the power to choose.
But verbal asking saves on the eyestrain of a 30 second stare. Is that why there's not a lot of eye contact once on the dancefloor - they need to rest their eyes?

However, the problem I have with the cabaceo in the UK is that it is simply not used widely or consistently - a lot of women seem to mostly just sit around waiting to be asked. And I personally don't think it works well with 21st-century Western culture anyway, but possibly I'm biased, coming from the relatively rough-and-tumble world of MJ.

I wasn't shooting you David.
And I realise that most men love to be asked by women for a dance.
Also a lot of men are shy - as are women.

Sorry if i still don't understand it all. I got involved in this thread because you moved my post from the sex descrmination thread.

I have never actually been to Tango - though I have done one of Amir's beginners workshops - I've never been to a milonga, Ballroom or WCS.

Astro
22nd-November-2008, 03:00 PM
Tango History

"Emerging from the black ghettos of Argentina in the 1890's, the tango originated as a dance enacting the relationship between a prostitute and client or between an unwilling woman and a smelly gaucho.

The man's flexed-knee posture recalls the stiff-legged walk of the gauchos in their leather chaps; the woman's stance, head back, allegedly derives from the fact that the man hadn't washed after a day on the range,

In the prostitute/client story, her right hand, low on his hip, is supposedly to be fishing for his wallet."

- quoted from Strictly Come Dancing - Rupert Smith, BBC Books.

IMO the codeco of the female asking with the eyes originates from the prostitute/client story.
Think of Eva Peron working the dance bars pre and post her arrival in Beaunos Airies.

This may be why that codeco has never transfered happily from Argentina to the UK.

I am just pontificating here, whereas Ruby Red is taking action in the north!

NB.The BBC book may not be right as it got it wrong about the history of The Foxtrot.
Harry Fox did not invent it.
It was a black North American dance, offpring of The Rag and The One Step.

ant
22nd-November-2008, 03:36 PM
Tango History

"Emerging from the black ghettos of Argentina in the 1890's, the tango originated as a dance enacting the relationship between a prostitute and client or between an unwilling woman and a smelly gaucho.


Astro there is a similar debate raging on the Tango-UK website at the moment. I am copying one post from Steve who is a rather maverick Tango teacher and was hoping you or someody else could make some sense out of it for me.


Re: Re. Myths and legends

> It is not my intention to discuss race relations but clarify another
> myth about the tango that proclaims that it has deep African roots and
> it was actually stolen from the slaves.

> 'it was actually stolen from the slaves.'
Whoever said that tango was created by/stolen from slaves?

> 'it has deep African roots'
Whoever would say that it hasn't?

Steve

Astro
22nd-November-2008, 03:42 PM
Astro there is a similar debate raging on the Tango-UK website at the moment. I am copying one post from Steve who is a rather maverick Tango teacher and was hoping you or someody else could make some sense out of it for me.


Re: Re. Myths and legends

> It is not my intention to discuss race relations but clarify another
> myth about the tango that proclaims that it has deep African roots and
> it was actually stolen from the slaves.

> 'it was actually stolen from the slaves.'
Whoever said that tango was created by/stolen from slaves?

> 'it has deep African roots'
Whoever would say that it hasn't?

Steve

This has already been debated on this forum.
I posited that the Tango was stolen from the slaves and passed off by the Argentines as their dance.

Amir couldn't find any evidence of this.
He spends time in Argentina and has not found out the truth of the matter.
Can anyone find the link?

Astro
22nd-November-2008, 04:21 PM
This has already been debated on this forum.
I posited that the Tango was stolen from the slaves and passed off by the Argentines as their dance.

Amir couldn't find any evidence of this.
He spends time in Argentina and has not found out the truth of the matter.
Can anyone find the link?

The thread is called Evolution of Dance and the thread starter was Amir.

Actually the majority of dances evolved from black dancers.

Because of the abdominable slave trade, Africans found themselves in English, French, Dutch, Portugese and Spanish colonies abroad and founded dances and dance music all over the world - Argentina being Spanish or Portugese :confused:

The Rhumba is said to be Nigerian, however.

Whites can claim to have evolved -

Ballet
The Waltz
Tap Dancing - clog dancing in England
The Barn Dance
Line Dancing
Quadrilles

there are more....

David Bailey
23rd-November-2008, 12:20 AM
This has already been debated on this forum.
I posited that the Tango was stolen from the slaves and passed off by the Argentines as their dance.
I think there's some basis for thinking this.

I've done some work on the "Afro-Argentine" Wikipedia article, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine

Some relevant parts of it are:

The generally accepted theory is that in the mid-1800s, African slaves were brought to Argentina and began to influence the local culture. The word "tango" may be straightforwardly African in origin, meaning "closed place" or "reserved ground." Or it may derive from Portuguese (and from the Latin verb tanguere, to touch) and was picked up by Africans on the slave ships.

Whatever its origin, the word "tango" acquired the standard meaning of the place where African slaves and free blacks gathered to dance. Eventually, tango would become very popular with the European immigrants and Euro – Argentines. In fact, it was very common to see the bars and brothels of the “barrios” (districts) frequented by European immigrants so that they could learn this dance. Once they learned this dance, they would take it with them when they left Argentina to introduce tango to the upper echelons of European and American society.

Now, OK, it's Wikipedia not gospel, but it has a certain amount of plausibility.

David Bailey
23rd-November-2008, 12:23 AM
Oh, and there's a good article on the Cabaceo here:
http://www.tangouk.co.uk/cabeceo.html

The comments are also very good.

Personally, I think the UK tango community could ditch the cabaceo and encourage women to ask more men to dance, without the world ending.

Astro
23rd-November-2008, 04:36 PM
I think there's some basis for thinking this.

I've done some work on the "Afro-Argentine" Wikipedia article, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine

Some relevant parts of it are:


Now, OK, it's Wikipedia not gospel, but it has a certain amount of plausibility.

I think Wikipedia is right.
I read in a dance book a couple of years ago (cannot remember title of the book) which stated that the sombre mood of the Tango reflected the misery of slavery as the slaves danced in their slave quarters.

My own thinking is that the slaves in Argentina could have been more miserable due to the fact that the Portugese had a reputation for running the worst slavers (ships), being the worst slavers, and for being the cruellest slave owners.

Astro
23rd-November-2008, 04:42 PM
Oh, and there's a good article on the Cabaceo here:
http://www.tangouk.co.uk/cabeceo.html

The comments are also very good.

Personally, I think the UK tango community could ditch the cabaceo and encourage women to ask more men to dance, without the world ending.

Modern Jive, as the only partner dance scene where asking for a dance is not based on gender, leads in equal opportunities.

Perhaps the MJ'ers at Tango will pioneer similar liberation.

rubyred
24th-November-2008, 12:58 AM
It's the non-verbal "You dancin'? You askin'? I'm askin'. I'm dancin'" exchange, all done with the eyes across a crowded room. Apparently.


Yea in true Scouse fashion 'hey gurl fancy a twirl on the floor' or 'hey gurl you're it for next three minutes' :rolleyes:


a prostitute and client

In the prostitute/client story, her right hand, low on his hip, is supposedly to be fishing for his wallet."


I am just pontificating here, whereas Ruby Red is taking action in the north!



Arrh hey gurl whada implying :lol:

Actually I have put the cabeceo into really good practise today at the afternoon Milonga in Batley, which was really lovely. Caught the eye of the intended victim er I mean leader, raised my eye brows, got eye to eye contact and smiled. It worked:clap: Had the most amazing tango dances as a result. I thought well ok I may not be in their league but what the heck go for it. The even nicer thing was that as a result of dancing with the so called, [and they were in truth ] good leaders, I got asked later on by the other guys. So come on girls flash those eyes, what have we got to lose. :wink:

Rhythm King
24th-November-2008, 07:35 AM
I think Wikipedia is right.
I read in a dance book a couple of years ago (cannot remember title of the book) which stated that the sombre mood of the Tango reflected the misery of slavery as the slaves danced in their slave quarters.

My own thinking is that the slaves in Argentina could have been more miserable due to the fact that the Portugese had a reputation for running the worst slavers (ships), being the worst slavers, and for being the cruellest slave owners.

Except that Argentina was Spanish, not Portuguese...

Astro
24th-November-2008, 04:40 PM
Except that Argentina was Spanish, not Portuguese...

So why do Agentinians speak Spanish with a Portugese intonation/lisp?

David Bailey
27th-November-2008, 12:01 PM
Getting back to the original point, well sort of.

Ken's done a couple of Poems :)


http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Poems/Maggies.html
http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Poems/Pams.html

rubyred
27th-November-2008, 02:13 PM
Ok then notes to self....

1. From now on I will never take a step on my own, I will hold back, be awkward and totally anarchial until I am invited to do so and follow the lead. I will rejoice and celebrate being the biggest Cow in Tango:clap:

2. I will banish the PAM inside me, from now on the eyes will meet, the eyebrows will be raised and I will execute the cabeceo with precision and style. These young 21yr stick insect types.. :rolleyes: The PAM inside me is turning into an IAN, 'I Ask Now':flower:

David Bailey
27th-November-2008, 02:27 PM
Ok then notes to self....

1. From now on I will never take a step on my own, I will hold back, be awkward and totally anarchial until I am invited to do so and follow the lead. I will rejoice and celebrate being the biggest Cow in Tango:clap:

2. I will banish the PAM inside me, from now on the eyes will meet, the eyebrows will be raised and I will execute the cabeceo with precision and style. These young 21yr stick insect types.. :rolleyes: The PAM inside me is turning into an IAN, 'I Ask Now':flower:
Yay! Unleash your Inner Maggie :clap:

The Tango-Women-Ask-Men-To-Dance revolution starts here.

(The acronym may need some work :D )

philsmove
27th-November-2008, 03:26 PM
Yay! Unleash your Inner Maggie :clap:

The Tango-Women-Ask-Men-To-Dance revolution starts here.

(The acronym may need some work :D )

face book group started