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Phil_dB
5th-November-2008, 11:19 PM
Sorry - weird one this.

The club i go to is full of lovely friendly people, - but I guess you're always going to get 'bad apples' wherever you go in life, - unfortunately, 'this' bad apple is a very regular, regular.

Cutting a long story short, a women I danced with last night was very rude to me, - its not what you expect on a ceroc night is it, - I thought everyone was out to have fun, have a dance etc.

This individual obviously takes herself very seriously, and was very put-out to have to dance with a beginner (not sure why given her clumpy movement and heavy handed follow).


I was a little upset actually, and do not wish to dance with her again. I do not wish to engage in a slagging match with her, its not what I go out for, - I'd rather just avoid.

What am I to do next time I have to change partners and i'm faced with her sour face?

Asking the bloke next to me if he would like to swap is going to sound plain weird! I don't want to cause a fuss!

I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her, - but to be honest, - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again :D :D :D


What to do!??! :(

NZ Monkey
5th-November-2008, 11:35 PM
Cut off your hand? :stirring:

Dreadful Scathe
6th-November-2008, 12:23 AM
Cut off your hand? :stirring:
hide away in a cupboard :)

Andy McGregor
6th-November-2008, 08:42 AM
To put it bluntly, you have very few choices if you really don't want to have any contact with this woman in the lesson. Almost all those choices are about not doing the lesson at all. The only other option is to ask a nice lady if she will do the lesson with you as a fixed couple at the back of the room. It's anti-social, but it's better than not doing the lesson at all.

The other option is to actually speak with the woman off the dance floor and tell her how she has made you feel. If you get the right reaction you can go back to normal - if you get the wrong reaction you can find a fixed partner. My other advice is to remember that not all people are sane. There are mentally ill people out there and some of them go dancing. If this woman is being rude to everyone you shouldn't take it personally. If she is being rude to everyone she probably won't remember you in particular.

martingold
6th-November-2008, 08:46 AM
I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her,
What to do!??! :(
sadly in a changing partner class you should do just that although you dont need to smile :wink:
There is a lady at chelmsford that i cant stand when i first noticed her she was pushing (physically) the brand new beginner who was behind her in the queue forward so that it meant she didnt have to dance with another woman in the line next to me while saying at the top of her voice i am not dancing with a woman again
She completely knocked the confidence of the new female taxi who was standing next to me and the person she pushed in front never returned to chelmsford
Unfortunately she seems to think i like her :banghead: and tries to make a bee line for me when we are in the same room i do the shark technique and make sure she cant get close enough to ask for a dance but in the line i have no choice but to put up and shut up so i smile sweetly say hello then i just look straight through her for the minute or so that she is in front of me.

ant
6th-November-2008, 09:17 AM
To put it bluntly, you have very few choices....

The other option is to actually speak with the woman off the dance floor ....

I agtree with every thing that Andy has said. The only thing I would add is before you speak to the woman directly, if that is what you decide, speak to the venue manager. Its more than likely that you are not the only person that has had a problem with this woman and so they may speak to her for you.

Martin
6th-November-2008, 10:05 AM
What am I to do next time I have to change partners and i'm faced with her sour face?

I think you have answered that one below...



I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her.

It is probably not "you", it is probably how "she is" - which you can rise above and switch off, and go through the motions in class.

You do not have to "dance" with her, just follow the motions in class and move on to happier partners in the line.




but to be honest, - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again :D :D


What to do!??! :(

I am not holier than thou, I have once in the past let it get to me, not taken my own advice above :blush:
(another long story! :doh:)

I still think it best to move on, smile and see it as thier problem and not yours.
Pray hard the teacher moves people on quickly, and smile :D.

Lee Bartholomew
6th-November-2008, 10:14 AM
At one class I us to go to, there was a touchy feely old man. Used to 'accidentally' touch every woman he danced with both in class and freestyle.

In the end, during the class rotation, almost all the women would 'go to the loo' when their turn to dance with him came around.

If it was me, I would have some fun with this woman. When it came to getting her in the class I would either deliberately get it all wrong or just stand there and not move during my turn with her and then say something like 'oh are we meant to have started?'.

Though you are prob really best going with Martins advice or maybe Andy's.

What did she say?

philsmove
6th-November-2008, 10:21 AM
, - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again :D :D :D
:(

Holding hands with strangers is an essential part of MJ
As you say classes are full of lovely friendly people, so if you have to holds hands with someone you don’t get on with, just grin and bear it

Or as you have suggest, stand next to mate and swap places

Double Trouble
6th-November-2008, 10:30 AM
Sorry...bit of a story here.

After I'd been dancing for a while, I quickly realised that MJ was pretty much going to be a big part of my life and I desperately wanted my husband to give it a go so that we didn't just drift apart in to completely different social worlds.

Anyway, I managed to persuade him to go along one night and he quite enjoyed it and was willing to keep going until he got the hang of it but the next week he went some woman was so rude to him, he couldn't face going again.

He'd plucked up the courage to ask someone for a dance in freestyle and she just basically ranted at him how she doesn't like dancing with beginners, she doesn't do charity, too many bloody beginners, etc, etc.

So that was that. His confidence was rock bottom and he never went again.

I'm not saying it's related, but we were divorced 6 months later. Him being a non-dancers certainly didn't help things.

From my own personal experience, I don't think venue organisers do enough to ensure that intermediate and advanced dancers make an effort with beginners. I know they have taxi dancers, etc, but I've never heard a teacher ask the non-beginners to be nice to new comers. I think they are too worried about upsetting them.

I imagine the low retention rate of beginners has a lot to do with bad experiences with rude/smelly/dangerous dancers.

Maxine
6th-November-2008, 10:32 AM
I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her, - but to be honest, - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again :D :D :D


What to do!??! :(

I should think everyone on here has had someone make a negative comment to them at some time, it is not nice or helpful but it happens.

My advice to you is take the mature route you don’t have to ask her to dance in freestyle but if you get her in a lesson remember it is for a very short time, so be the better person and enjoy the moving on bit

Beowulf
6th-November-2008, 10:36 AM
Whatever you do don't do what I did.

there was one "follow" in Aberdeen who took her dancing terribly seriously. She asked me in the freestyle and I proceeded to do my limited repertoire of moves. You could tell she was bored within seconds and she started forcably backleading me into moves I'd not done/ not liked before. so i ..ahem.. asserted my lead slightly (I didn't force myself.. i just gave a stronger lead) her face was like thunder.. how dare I a mere beginner (in her eyes) try and LEAD for pity's sakes.

Anyway it got to the point when ever I danced with her she'd frown and try to backlead and I wouldn't let her and in the end I took a several month sabbatical from dancing (of course.. knowing me any excuse not to dance would do really!)

It's people like that that mean I'm still a "beginner" despite dancing since 2003. I go for a while, get my confidence knocked then leave for ages.. of course when i eventually return (as I invariably do) it's back to square one again.

You're better to persevere , and if she asks you to dance politely refuse, and in the meantime keep dancing with others and practice,practice,practice so that the time will soon come when she'll sit there in awe as you dance gracefully around the floor and she'll rue the day she critisised you. :wink:

Now .. if only I could follow my own advice :rofl:

marcusj
6th-November-2008, 10:40 AM
He'd plucked up the courage to ask someone for a dance in freestyle and she just basically ranted at him how she doesn't like dancing with beginners, she doesn't do charity, too many bloody beginners, etc, etc.


A lump of a miserable grumpy woman did that to me in one of my first few times - I say hello if I get her in the class but to this day I won't go near her in freestyle, it nearly did ruin it for me and stop me going.

The odd thing is that when I was a beginner she looked good but is in fact clumpy and out of time and she now has the pleasure of watching me on the stage demonstrate knowing I will never ask her.

Conversely I have a great deal of time and affinity for the women who were kind and patient towards me when I started.

Andy McGregor
6th-November-2008, 11:07 AM
From my own personal experience, I don't think venue organisers do enough to ensure that intermediate and advanced dancers make an effort with beginners. I know they have taxi dancers, etc, but I've never heard a teacher ask the non-beginners to be nice to new comers. I think they are too worried about upsetting them.

I imagine the low retention rate of beginners has a lot to do with bad experiences with rude/smelly/dangerous dancers.I think that we do too much. I think it's the culture of never saying "no" that sometimes causes the problem. Women feel forced to dance with people when they'd rather not do so. Because of this they sometimes dance in a grudging and grumpy fashion.

Just recently I've changed my advice from "never say no". Nowadays I'm unashamedly sexist when it comes to asking people to dance. I tell people that they should behave as ladies and gentlemen and be polite. I explain that we are not at "speed dating" we are at a dance class and an invitation for a dance is that and no more. I ask the ladies to always accept an invitation from a man they have never danced with before - why would they refuse a request for a dance at a dance class? But I say that they should not be expected to accept a second invitation to dance from a guy if they really didn't like dancing with him - but they should refuse graciously! As far as the guys go I tell them that a gentleman would NEVER refuse a lady a dance and that we ONLY have gentlemen at our classes. So far this change hasn't caused any problems and I've only had one guy who persistently broke the rules, refusing all the middle-aged ladies and hitting on the slim and pretty ladies - he was told to leave by one of our middle aged female crew the second time he refused her a dance! I think she quite enjoyed telling him :devil:

ant
6th-November-2008, 11:15 AM
.

ladies...... should not be expected to accept a second invitation to dance from a guy if they really didn't like dancing with him - guys NEVER refuse a lady a dance

Does that mean guys do not have the same rights of refusal as ladies?

David Bailey
6th-November-2008, 11:41 AM
I imagine the low retention rate of beginners has a lot to do with bad experiences with rude/smelly/dangerous dancers.
"Low" compared to what? :confused:

I thought MJ had a high beginner retention rate - that's one of it's strengths, isn't it?

Andy McGregor
6th-November-2008, 11:56 AM
Does that mean guys do not have the same rights of refusal as ladies?It's more about the lead and follow nature of the dance than anything else. My rule is really that nobody can refuse a dance - this is certainly the case for a someone you've not danced with before. The exception is where ladies/follows have previously had a bad experience with a man/lead. My theory is that the guys are leading so they are choosing how the dance goes. If it does not go well I believe it's down to the lead rather than the follow. I believe a follow should be able to refuse to follow someone who leads them badly. Sometimes when I announce these rules I say "guys, if you get refused a lot it's probably your dancing rather than your looks - come and see me and we'll see what we can do to help".

In partner dances it is well established that 99% of the time men lead and ladies follow. Therefore I happy to refer to them as ladies and gentlemen rather than follow and lead. Even when ladies lead or men follow, they do not do so regularly.

I suppose my "exception" would equally apply to ladies asking to lead other ladies or men. However, that is in the small print and people would like to get into freestyle rather than hear me yabber on :innocent:

ant
6th-November-2008, 12:17 PM
The exception is where ladies/follows have previously had a bad experience with a man/lead.

I think that is very unfair.

You must be lucky - because I have had bad experiences with followers, fighting your lead all the time, pulling your arm off, pushing off you for a spin, actually shoving you round to lead you, crashing into drops you have not led.

It does not seem right that if I refuse to dance with a woman that I have had a bad experience with I should have to dance with them again for fear of being told to leave, when they can refuse to dance with me without that threat.

Twirly
6th-November-2008, 12:28 PM
Now .. if only I could follow my own advice :rofl:

:yeah: :rolleyes:

Phil, I'm afraid that in class, you can only grit your teeth, grin and bear it. Taking up the suggestion that you do the class as fixed partners with someone is only a temporary fix, and ultimately will not do your dancing any favours. By being in the rotation, you get to experience doing the moves with lots of people with varying levels of experience and you will gain from that. You will also get a chance to get to know people as often it's the only chance you get to say "hello, how are you?" to familiar faces. And when you become a familiar face, you get asked to dance more. I fear that you will lose more than you will gain by doing permanent fixed partners - assuming that you can find enough women to do fixed partners every week, and that you don't get a very odd reputation by doing so! :what:

So, on a practical level, there are a few things that you can do:

1. Have a word with the staff about this woman, and see if they have any advice on how to deal with her, or are willing to talk to her directly. You don't know how many other people find her unpleasent, and the venue needs to know.

2. Remember that you never have to dance with this person in freestyle. You never have to ask her, and you never have to accept an offer of a dance. Even in class, you will probably only have contact with her for 1-2 minutes a week in rotation.

3. Look forward to the pleasure of becoming a very good and popular dancer, and then continuing to ignore her, just like marcusj!

4. Change venue. A bit drastic this one, but if it's ruining it that much for you, find somewhere else to dance. Just be aware that you might find someone else that you don't like either...

And please, don't let this one woman who clearly has problems of her own ruin your pleasure in the class or dancing. Focus on all the really good and friendly dancers you meet, and hopefully she'll pale into insignificance :hug:

Andy McGregor
6th-November-2008, 12:33 PM
I think that is very unfair.

You must be lucky - because I have had bad experiences with followers, fighting your lead all the time, pulling your arm off, pushing off you for a spin, actually shoving you round to lead you, crashing into drops you have not led.

It does not seem right that if I refuse to dance with a woman that I have had a bad experience with I should have to dance with them again for fear of being told to leave, when they can refuse to dance with me without that threat.Some things just aren't fair. In this case I think it's completely fair as the "follow" is the one doing the refusing. They are refusing to be driven badly.

On the subject of dancing with follows as described above, I'm afraid the lead is still the problem. A fight requires two people. When you say you are having your arm pulled off you are meeting that tug with a tug of your own. You are 50% responsible for the tension. I do get ladies who try to tug at my arm: I don't let them do it too me and simply let them take my hand in the direction they are tugging: if they keep on tugging I step towards them rather than meet their force with an equal and opposite force. It doesn't mean I enjoy the experience, but it does mean I retain control of the dance. I occasionally have ladies hijack the lead: it's part of the dance and you should let them do it to you. On the subject of un-led drops, I really do not have a problem with this on the dance floor - perhaps they think drops are being led. My advice is to speak with them when you save them from falling on the floor. Remember, they are trying as hard as they can to be a good follow - they are not doing it on purpose.

My suggestion is that you find another class where the ladies are taught to follow properly. Does your current class start their routines with the words "semi-circle to the left and both step back"? :innocent: Both are wrong and the "both step back" will encourage tugging. The semi-circle will encourage hand bouncing and other bad habits.

marcusj
6th-November-2008, 12:45 PM
Does your current class start their routines with the words "semi-circle to the left and both step back"? :innocent: Both are wrong and the "both step back" will encourage tugging. The semi-circle will encourage hand bouncing and other bad habits.
You never let me down !! :wink:

Andy McGregor
6th-November-2008, 12:54 PM
You never let me down !! :wink:We aim to please :wink:

The more I see of the dancing that comes from the SCTTL&BSB the more I have to accept that MJ will never be on Strictly :tears:

Of course it's not just the SCTTL&BSB it's the complete lack of feedback from some teachers to students that doesn't help. It really does make my blood boil when I see teachers step off the stage and spend the rest of the night chatting with the DJ or dancing with the good dancers.

And all this poorly taught dancing means that there are many people out there who are making it difficult for their partners to lead or follow. This results in debates about refusing people dances.

marcusj
6th-November-2008, 01:08 PM
We aim to please :wink:

The more I see of the dancing that comes from the SCTTL&BSB the more I have to accept that MJ will never be on Strictly :tears:

Of course it's not just the SCTTL&BSB it's the complete lack of feedback from some teachers to students that doesn't help. It really does make my blood boil when I see teachers step off the stage and spend the rest of the night chatting with the DJ or dancing with the good dancers.

And all this poorly taught dancing means that there are many people out there who are making it difficult for their partners to lead or follow. This results in debates about refusing people dances.
I'm demoing tonight and will in the Ceroc Essentials bit at the start have to perform the SCTTL&BSB - it's okay from stationary (although I never do it in freestyle), but nigh on impossible to do consistently in and out in and out - it's the only bit of the demo I struggle with !

David Bailey
6th-November-2008, 01:27 PM
Of course it's not just the SCTTL&BSB it's the complete lack of feedback from some teachers to students that doesn't help.
Well, but that's built-in to all MJ classes, isn't it? They're all large-scale, instructive, and non-interactive. That's the way they're designed. So it's hardly surprising there's little interaction after the class, that "sheep" attitude is built-in.

When was the last time a regular MJ class was taught to a (deliberately) small audience, in the round, and with feedback?

(The answer you're looking for here is "never", by the way)

Rachel
6th-November-2008, 01:39 PM
... This individual obviously takes herself very seriously, and was very put-out to have to dance with a beginner (not sure why given her clumpy movement and heavy handed follow).

I was a little upset actually, and do not wish to dance with her again. I do not wish to engage in a slagging match with her, its not what I go out for, - I'd rather just avoid.

What am I to do next time I have to change partners and i'm faced with her sour face?

Asking the bloke next to me if he would like to swap is going to sound plain weird! I don't want to cause a fuss!

I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her, - but to be honest, - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again :D :D :D


What to do!??! :(I'm sorry to hear this but at least, as you say, for every one bad apple, there's 300 good ones.

Unsurprisingly, I'm in the grin & bear it camp. But the funny thing is, you may find that you can get an innate satisfaction from this.

I'm thinking about whenever I'm forced into this kind of situation (not at dancing, I'm thinking more of my role as a union rep, for example) - the more someone is nasty/outrageous/losing control, the more polite and sickeningly nice I try to be to them.

This really unnerves them because they want to be horrible to you, but can't actually find a valid reason to be. And you're left feeling smug and blameless. :wink:

Rachel

ant
6th-November-2008, 01:43 PM
I'm afraid the lead is still the problem.
My suggestion is that you find another class where the ladies are taught to follow properly

What statement is correct?
It seems that not only are you discriminatory you also want your cake and eat it.

Moondancer
6th-November-2008, 01:49 PM
I'm thinking about whenever I'm forced into this kind of situation (not at dancing, I'm thinking more of my role as a union rep, for example) - the more someone is nasty/outrageous/losing control, the more polite and sickeningly nice I try to be to them.

This really unnerves them because they want to be horrible to you, but can't actually find a valid reason to be. And you're left feeling smug and blameless. :wink:

Rachel


Also, you may be observed by other follows and be viewed as a nice friendly unshakeable chap who doesn't even get riled by someone being horrible to him!:wink:

Rachel
6th-November-2008, 01:57 PM
....(not at dancing, ...Actually, I have just remembered a 'dancing' situation I was in recently. And believe me, many many people heard about it afterwards - partly cos I was so incensed and disbelieving, and partly cos it was so funny.

It was at a recent weekender and I made one of my very rare visits from the blues room to the main room. I ended up having a dance with someone I barely knew, and with whom I'd never danced before. I thought the dance was ok'ish - though very 'main room' if you like, forceful, and with several drops thrown in for good measure.

Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.

I did think about arguing back along the lines of 'different dance styles ... don't like so much force ... try the blues room ...' etc, but then thought, what's the point? Either we stand here arguing, when I have no chance of changing his opinion, or we leave it at that and both get on with finding someone more compatible.

So I just smiled as nicely as I could, tried out all the points he was trying to demonstrate to me, and thanked him for all the useful feedback.

I still find it funny to think about to this day. But I am also angry because, if he had given that criticism to someone new or on their very first weekend, how likely is it that it could have ruined their whole night?

R. x

martingold
6th-November-2008, 01:58 PM
I think that is very unfair.
You must be lucky - because I have had bad experiences with followers, fighting your lead all the time, pulling your arm off, pushing off you for a spin, actually shoving you round to lead you, crashing into drops you have not led.

It does not seem right that if I refuse to dance with a woman that I have had a bad experience with I should have to dance with them again for fear of being told to leave, when they can refuse to dance with me without that threat.
:yeah:



On the subject of dancing with follows as described above, I'm afraid the lead is still the problem. A fight requires two people. When you say you are having your arm pulled off you are meeting that tug with a tug of your own. You are 50% responsible for the tension. I do get ladies who try to tug at my arm: I don't let them do it too me and simply let them take my hand in the direction they are tugging: if they keep on tugging I step towards them rather than meet their force with an equal and opposite force. It doesn't mean I enjoy the experience, but it does mean I retain control of the dance. I occasionally have ladies hijack the lead: it's part of the dance and you should let them do it to you. On the subject of un-led drops, I really do not have a problem with this on the dance floor - perhaps they think drops are being led. My advice is to speak with them when you save them from falling on the floor. Remember, they are trying as hard as they can to be a good follow - they are not doing it on purpose.


this of course is just pure arrogance on your part andy

I have never met you or had one of your classes yet whenever you mention your classes on here you seem to demonstrate a complete disregard to how the dancers in your class feel

We are not all dance gods like yourself us mere mortals have to dance with a variety of follows who demonstrate that they neither know (or in a lot of cases want to know) how to follow and when you mention to them that maybe it might be better if they did something rather than pull your arm off they say I know and then go and pull your arm again
with no chance of enjoying a dance like that why should a lead (and i dont mean crew who when they take on the job accept they will get some bad dances) have to put up with it and say yes politely to every follow that asks for a dance
The dont say no rule is there to promote confidence in all dancers not just the follows




Of course it's not just the SCTTL&BSB it's the complete lack of feedback from some teachers to students that doesn't help. It really does make my blood boil when I see teachers step off the stage and spend the rest of the night chatting with the DJ or dancing with the good dancers.

And all this poorly taught dancing means that there are many people out there who are making it difficult for their partners to lead or follow. This results in debates about refusing people dances.

now naturally i agree with the above

Any teacher or taxi or demo who either chats all night or only dances with the better dancers should not being doing the job
i know from this and a lot of your posts that you are passionate about the dance unfortunately you come across as saying your the only good teacher there is and that unless its taught your way it cant be right unfortunately
this it what makes you sound arrogant and with a complete disrespect for other people

David Bailey
6th-November-2008, 02:12 PM
Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.
Well, finally!

Boy, I'm glad someone had the guts to tell you that, we've all been debating how to mention it for, oooh, years now... :lol:

Now all we have to do is find someone to tell Lily... :D


I still find it funny to think about to this day. But I am also angry because, if he had given that criticism to someone new or on their very first weekend, how likely is it that it could have ruined their whole night?
OK, seriously, this is why I rarely give un-requested feedback (I would say "never", but that's not true - but certainly no more than a couple of times a year).

In a social dance, you dance with your partner, you thank them, and that's it. If you want to teach, then become a teacher, is my attitude. And if you want to learn, then pay a professional.

Jay Jay
6th-November-2008, 02:17 PM
I tell people that they should behave as ladies and gentlemen and be polite. I explain that we are not at "speed dating" we are at a dance class and an invitation for a dance is that and no more. I ask the ladies to always accept an invitation from a man they have never danced with before - why would they refuse a request for a dance at a dance class? But I say that they should not be expected to accept a second invitation to dance from a guy if they really didn't like dancing with him - but they should refuse graciously! As far as the guys go I tell them that a gentleman would NEVER refuse a lady a dance and that we ONLY have gentlemen at our classes. So far this change hasn't caused any problems and I've only had one guy who persistently broke the rules, refusing all the middle-aged ladies and hitting on the slim and pretty ladies - he was told to leave by one of our middle aged female crew the second time he refused her a dance! I think she quite enjoyed telling him :devil:

:yeah:Spot on....but I do feel the guy should have the same rights not to dance with some one if they have danced before and it just hasn't worked.

David Bailey
6th-November-2008, 02:22 PM
On the subject of dancing with follows as described above, I'm afraid the lead is still the problem. A fight requires two people. When you say you are having your arm pulled off you are meeting that tug with a tug of your own. You are 50% responsible for the tension. I do get ladies who try to tug at my arm: I don't let them do it too me and simply let them take my hand in the direction they are tugging:
How does that work when someone tugs excessively at the anchor of a slot then?

I had a dance like that a while back.

No matter what compensation strategies I tried - and believe me, I tried a lot - she "compensated" back. If I loosened my hold, she gripped harder. If I allowed more elasticity, she took it. And so on. Moving forwards wasn't an appropriate response - it's at the anchor phase, remember. In short, she genuinely and consciously thought that "over-tugging" during the anchor phase was a good thing to do.

So, to compensate, I simply didn't dance slotty, I danced in other ways - but then I had that option. A less experienced dancer wwould have been stuffed. Sometimes, there's no way to work around a problem without changing the context - within the context of the problem you either have to accept it, stop the dance, or wrestle with your follower.


Remember, they are trying as hard as they can to be a good follow - they are not doing it on purpose.
That's fine if the follower is simply inexperienced, or doesn't know what to do. It's much more difficult - as in my example above - if the follower has clear views, which are wrong.

martingold
6th-November-2008, 02:29 PM
Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.

R. x
there ya go i think he was probably right perhaps mark can help you learn to dance properly instead of just as a hobby :lol:
Now to be honest you were one of the few that i was nervous about dancing with at breeze never having danced with you before yet having heard a lot about you
Having said that when we did dance i found you to be an absolute pleasure to be with not scarey at all :flower: and certainly not hard to lead then i am one of those guys who likes to stand still and watch his partner dance (oops thats let me secrets out :doh:) so no need for forceful leads etc

straycat
6th-November-2008, 02:37 PM
this of course is just pure arrogance on your part andy

Mmmm - to be fair, I think he has a point (on the technical aspects, anyway). Take the obvious (arm-pulling) issue - when dancing with an extremely forceful follow, there's a very powerful instinct to match the force she (or he) is using, and to try to lead by being stronger.... or to try to defend oneself by brute strength. We often do this quite unconsciously - I certainly used to.

As Andy says - no follower is going to be doing this deliberately (unless she really hates you :whistle:) - it's often down to a lack of physical awareness - and that can work both ways... it could be a response to the fact that the lead is using more strength than he/she had shought), so if you start using more force to counter it, she'll unconsciously try to 'match' that, and so goes the train to Pain City. In other words - most painful 'arm tugging' incidents that I've experienced have been a result of an unintended escalating tug-of-war arms race, fuelled by both parties.

Nowadays, if I encounter a follow who is using a painful amount of strength on me, I don't try to fight it, or even match it - I do the opposite and gentle my lead down, often by a vast amount. Normally, she (or he) will do the same. If they continue to use a painful amount of strength, I'll still not fight it, but will quite often start following them, which can be quite fun. There's always something positive to take away from this stuff.

Oh - and last time a follower self-led themselves into a drop with me, they got exactly that (because I promptly let go). But then it was a guy, a fair bit bigger than me, and I had a dodgy back, so I figured that if one of us had to get hurt, I'd rather be selfish about it. Maybe I'm a bad person :whistle:

emmylou25
6th-November-2008, 02:49 PM
It's much more difficult - as in my example above - if the follower has clear views, which are wrong.

I don't usually comment on people's dancing without them asking for advice, but if I'm leading a regular venue follower who tugs or try to lead, whether they're intermediate level or not I tend to stop and just say firmly I'm leading. Usually in our venues it helps when they're dancing with me - not sure if they then apply it when dancing with other people. Most of the people at those venues don't see themselves as superior to everyone else's dancing though so maybe that's where it's harder to say something.

Andy McGregor
6th-November-2008, 02:55 PM
:yeah:Spot on....but I do feel the guy should have the same rights not to dance with some one if they have danced before and it just hasn't worked.It's a difficult call. How bad was that follower that you really must say no? Last night I'd love to have turned down a lady - I'd rather not dance with her at all as I have to manage her always seeming to be behind the beat with her footwork. One of my all-time favourite tracks came on and I could see one of my favourite partners was available. However, it's just one track, I survived and I didn't upset a lady.

I really do think it's the difference between lead and follow. If you consider your body is a vehicle for your person, why should you let someone drive/lead when you've seen how they drive and think they might cause an accident - especially if they've taken you for a spin recently :sick: On the other hand, you adjust your driving style if you're driving a vehicle that's a bit slow or doesn't turn as well as most cars on the road.

Although some people will see it as arrogance when I tell them that's what they need to do :innocent:

marcusj
6th-November-2008, 03:09 PM
Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.

Oh dear Rachel, it goes without saying that there is never any excuse for such rudeness, but oh the irony of choosing you to say it to, obviously the first time he was fortunate enough to dance with a classically trained dancer who is not only as a light as a feather to lead but who can be led into anything that is leadable by someone who can lead.

It would have been interesting to see his face with you and Marc doing your stuff in front of him - f**kwit !!

martingold
6th-November-2008, 03:31 PM
It's a difficult call. How bad was that follower that you really must say no?
Although some people will see it as arrogance when I tell them that's what they need to do :innocent:

thing is your the teacher/owner are you not
why should someone be they lead or follow pay you to have to dance with someone they just dont want to dance with for whatever reason.

As i said before the dont say no to a dance rule in ceroc is in order to build confidence in people both the lead and follow hence its for both partys

As for the arrogance its that you obviously think you can do no wrong
I think some of the independents have too many rules sometimes and obviously by the way you tell us you enforce them they are not there to help social dancers just hotshots :whistle:

Jay Jay
6th-November-2008, 03:36 PM
It's a difficult call. How bad was that follower that you really must say no?

Also true.....and like you say it is only one dance :nice:.

...but when it is the last dance of the evening and you want to end on a high or like you say a track that you adore comes on and one of your favourite dancers is available that would definitely go on the 'What Made You Frown Today' thread, but I would have to have an extremely valid reason to say no.

Jay Jay
6th-November-2008, 03:46 PM
Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.



Rachel.......I hadn't heard that story, but I just find it unbelievable that some one is so blinkered in their thinking that no way could it have been down to their leading and on top of that to then proceed to tell you, I'm sorry but that is just downright rude.

I had a dance once that turned in to an unwanted lesson by someone with no musicality whatsoever and he was actually trying to show me totally incorrect moves...some people huh?

Constructive criticism is fine but then again depends who is giving it to you.

Over your head Rach, over your head :grin:

Andy McGregor
6th-November-2008, 03:52 PM
and obviously by the way you tell us you enforce them they are not there to help social dancers just hotshots :whistle:Nothing could be further from reality. The prime objective of our week-night classes is to teach people to dance and to help them to progress as dancers. This means I actively discourage hot-shot behavior. I don't even let them chat loudly when they sit out the lesson if it disturbs people actually doing the lesson.

As far as rules are concerned I think that they are not really needed for most people. It should be common sense. However, there's always someone who needs rules to act like they've got common sense. It's much easier to point to a rule than it is to tell someone that they've not got any common sense :whistle:

martingold
6th-November-2008, 03:54 PM
Nothing could be further from reality. The prime objective of our week-night classes is to teach people to dance and to help them to progress as dancers. This means I actively discourage hot-shot behavior. I don't even let them chat loudly when they sit out the lesson if it disturbs people actually doing the lesson.

As far as rules are concerned I think that they are not really needed for most people. It should be common sense. However, there's always someone who needs rules to act like they've got common sense. It's much easier to point to a rule than it is to tell someone that they've not got any common sense :whistle:
i must try to get to one of your classes sometime they sound pretty good

Phil_dB
6th-November-2008, 03:59 PM
I’ve just come on here to check to see if there are any replies, - quite surprised how much this thread has grown!!!! :nice:

I'm also glad my post was taken the 'right' way, - as I half expected people to think that *I* must have done something wrong to encourage her, 2 sides to every story etc. I haven't stated what exactly happened as #1 I'd rather forget about it (I dont want a record of it on here), #2 nor do I want the person who was involved to come on here and read that she actually 'got' to me. Threads in this beginners forum hang around on the 1st page for months! :wink:


I’ve read most of the replies (busy at work right now!), - sorry not to reply to everyone invidually, I’m very grateful and have read all comments with interest! – thanks everybody for your time :nice:


After reading your thoughts i've decided that i'm not going to let it effect my night at all.

I'm not going to spend my time fixed at the back of the class, nor am I going to keep a look out for her all night, trying to avoid, that's all too much like hard work. Of course I'll never accept a freestyle dance with her, but I doubt she'll be asking me anyway.

I'm going to have a quiet word with the manager there about her.

Lastly, i'm going take Beowulf's advice (actually this was my plan anyway :)) - I'll use this bad experience as motiviation, - I already have 3 workshops booked up, one this Sunday :yum:



You're better to persevere , and if she asks you to dance politely refuse, and in the meantime keep dancing with others and practice,practice,practice so that the time will soon come when she'll sit there in awe as you dance gracefully around the floor and she'll rue the day she critisised you.


Cheers all :cheers:

Andy McGregor
6th-November-2008, 04:05 PM
...but when it is the last dance of the evening and you want to end on a high or like you say a track that you adore comes on and one of your favourite dancers is available that would definitely go on the 'What Made You Frown Today' thread, but I would have to have an extremely valid reason to say no.Ahh, the last track is sacrosanct. I think it would be a reasonable excuse if you said you'd "promised" the last dance to someone else - even if the only promise you'd made was to yourself :innocent:

Gadget
6th-November-2008, 04:07 PM
This individual obviously takes herself very seriously, and was very put-out to have to dance with a beginner (not sure why given her clumpy movement and heavy handed follow).
In my opinion, the problem lies with the follower rather than you: every scenario I can think on it is against the general ethos of MJ, class ethics, and is just plain rude. But some people are.

Should you have to make exceptions for rude people? Dangerous line to tread - If not, then for whom should you make exceptions for? The only commandment in MJ is thou shalt not injure your partner*. Everything else is personal judgement about where the balance between selfish and selfless lies.
It should be fun. If it's not, then you need to re-dress the balance until it is#; if this involves too much sacrifice or effort, then you have to cut your losses and stop dancing: no point in dancing if it's not fun. :tears:

{#some good advice here as to how to redress this balance :cheers:}

(* self-preservation is rule zero - an implicit rule of life that shouldn't need to be underlined)

Moondancer
6th-November-2008, 05:37 PM
Slightly similar issue on my class rotation this week:

As I had a couple of beautiful thumb bruises on my upper arms, I was feeling a tad ‘anti-thumb’ this week and rather disinclined to put up with being mauled, so when a bloke on rotation not only inserted his thumb into the back of my hand during the teaching of the move but even absent-mindedly ground it into my flesh when we were standing still, I asked him not to.

…I was polite, I took the oh, I don’t think you realise that you’re using your thumb approach. But he still didn’t take it out, and as soon as he lifted my hand up for a turn or something the pressure on my hand increased, so I told him he was hurting me and pulled his thumb off with my other hand. When he put it right back in straight away, I told him again that he was hurting me and pulled it off again. Then he looked at me as if I was a complete half-wit and said “But I like leading like that,” and pressed it right back down again. So I just said “Well, it’s painful” and then it was time to move round.

Sometimes the teachers say something about no thumbs in class, so I went up to the stage after the lesson and asked if thumbs could be mentioned in the next class, since this man isn’t a beginner and would certainly be there to hear it, and I explained what had happened. Unfortunately, when it came to the next class the teacher didn’t say anything at all.

I don’t know if having no excess hand fat means I am particularly prone to thumbcrush, but given that the back of my hand had a lovely blue circle the next day, what else can I do? I like going round the class rotation and changing partners, so I don’t want to sit out or try the fixed partner option, but once my hand was sore from this man, the slightest pressure from the odd other thumbdiggers on the rotation seemed to hurt, when I’m sure normally I could have put up with them for so short a time.

emmylou25
6th-November-2008, 05:57 PM
…I was polite, I took the oh, I don’t think you realise that you’re using your thumb approach. But he still didn’t take it out, and as soon as he lifted my hand up for a turn or something the pressure on my hand increased, so I told him he was hurting me and pulled his thumb off with my other hand. When he put it right back in straight away, I told him again that he was hurting me and pulled it off again.



I spend a lot of time lifting thumbs off my hands. I don't say anything until about the 3rd time of doing so, eventually people get the idea although most of those aren't really experienced dancers.

If they get told the same thing several times by different people it'll usually sink in - maybe find some friends/other followers to do the same thing as you in the hope that he'll get the hint?

Moondancer
6th-November-2008, 06:01 PM
I spend a lot of time lifting thumbs off my hands. I don't say anything until about the 3rd time of doing so, eventually people get the idea although most of those aren't really experienced dancers.

I found it quite difficult to get the thumb off, to be honest. How do you do it? I had to get the thumb and finger of the other hand and really pull his thumb because he just didn't want to let go! I found it almost impossible mid-move. Is there an easier way?

..like maybe a quick release button located in the groin? :lol:

Phil_dB
6th-November-2008, 06:11 PM
One thing I have noticed since doing Ceroc, is the dramatic difference in people's co-ordination -- some people just seem to be very INsensitive.

The bloke you're talking about sounds both ignorant, stuck in his ways and unwilling to change.

We all do things we don't mean to at times, - but surely after hearing someone tell you that you're "hurting them" - how can that message not get through?!? Baffling.


As a male I can't speak from experience, - but how about using the broken record technique; everytime the thumb goes on; STOP dancing, - freeze, look him in the eye and repeat... "your thumb is hurting me".

Magic Hans
6th-November-2008, 06:49 PM
I'm sorry to hear this but at least, as you say, for every one bad apple, there's 300 good ones.

Unsurprisingly, I'm in the grin & bear it camp. But the funny thing is, you may find that you can get an innate satisfaction from this.

I'm thinking about whenever I'm forced into this kind of situation (not at dancing, I'm thinking more of my role as a union rep, for example) - the more someone is nasty/outrageous/losing control, the more polite and sickeningly nice I try to be to them.

This really unnerves them because they want to be horrible to you, but can't actually find a valid reason to be. And you're left feeling smug and blameless. :wink:

Rachel


Doh!!!! You just stole my thunder!!!!! Nought like a bit of the ol' reverse psychology!!!

I haven't had the (dubious) pleasure of being criticised or yanked about recently. If I did, and felt very strongly about a particular female, I'd try to pre-empt her by lavishing ever increasingly outrageous compliments on her .... and watch the (confusing) results!! .... as well as accepting every criticism as a compliment!!! lol ..... 'Ah! Thanks for noticing!!'

It does tend to lighten the atmosphere (at least for me) and results in, at least, a few seconds of respite, as the shock hits!!

Lost Leader
7th-November-2008, 03:11 PM
Actually, I have just remembered a 'dancing' situation I was in recently. And believe me, many many people heard about it afterwards - partly cos I was so incensed and disbelieving, and partly cos it was so funny.

It was at a recent weekender and I made one of my very rare visits from the blues room to the main room. I ended up having a dance with someone I barely knew, and with whom I'd never danced before. I thought the dance was ok'ish - though very 'main room' if you like, forceful, and with several drops thrown in for good measure.

Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceeded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.

I did think about arguing back along the lines of 'different dance styles ... don't like so much force ... try the blues room ...' etc, but then thought, what's the point? Either we stand here arguing, when I have no chance of changing his opinion, or we leave it at that and both get on with finding someone more compatible.

So I just smiled as nicely as I could, tried out all the points he was trying to demonstrate to me, and thanked him for all the useful feedback.

I still find it funny to think about to this day. But I am also angry because, if he had given that criticism to someone new or on their very first weekend, how likely is it that it could have ruined their whole night?

R. x

Well this certainly takes the proverbial biscuit, and a chocolate covered one at that.

If anyone doubts that some of the people (OK, it is mostly men) that hand out criticism or "advice" to their partners at the end of a dance are frankly idiots whose opinions should count for nothing then this is surely proof positive. I find it difficult to think of anyone who is better than Rachel at making her partner's dancing look as good as it possibly can by covering up any mistakes, compensating brilliantly for any bits of dodgy leading and adding plenty of elegant styling and it goes without saying that you, Rachel are an absolutely top class dancer of the first order. It is of course more than possible for there to be to a clash of styles between partners but that does not in any way explain or justify this sort of nonsense, especially as I know that Rachel would do her very best to accomodate her partner's style of dancing.

What this shows is that this type of unsavoury event happens because some men just like to have a go at people as some kind of power trip or feel it somehow necessary to hand out unsolicited advice and criticism at almost every opportunity. Laughably it quite often seems to be the case that the propensity to this kind of behaviour is inversely related to the actual skill and ability of the person giving partners the benefit of their opinions.

I do hope that you were really able to laugh this off but as you say if it had been a relative beginner it would have totally ruined their evening and possibly put them off partner dancing altogether. On the bright side though this incident will hopefully bring home the point to those who have been unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of this sort of behaviour that is really is something to be dismissed and that more often than not the judgements and opinions handed out are so far off the mark as to be laughable and worthy only of total derision. However good a dancer you feel you really are though, if someone tells you that your dancing was somehow bad it is very difficult not to take this to heart and feel that you must have been doing something wrong.

Astro
7th-November-2008, 05:07 PM
Sorry...bit of a story here.

After I'd been dancing for a while, I quickly realised that MJ was pretty much going to be a big part of my life and I desperately wanted my husband to give it a go so that we didn't just drift apart in to completely different social worlds.

Anyway, I managed to persuade him to go along one night and he quite enjoyed it and was willing to keep going until he got the hang of it but the next week he went some woman was so rude to him, he couldn't face going again.

He'd plucked up the courage to ask someone for a dance in freestyle and she just basically ranted at him how she doesn't like dancing with beginners, she doesn't do charity, too many bloody beginners, etc, etc.

So that was that. His confidence was rock bottom and he never went again.

I'm not saying it's related, but we were divorced 6 months later. Him being a non-dancers certainly didn't help things.

From my own personal experience, I don't think venue organisers do enough to ensure that intermediate and advanced dancers make an effort with beginners. I know they have taxi dancers, etc, but I've never heard a teacher ask the non-beginners to be nice to new comers. I think they are too worried about upsetting them.

I imagine the low retention rate of beginners has a lot to do with bad experiences with rude/smelly/dangerous dancers.

A similar thing happened to me too. After months of persusion I finally managed to get my male friend (who drives) to go to ceroc.

There was a really rude girl in the line who after an initial tussle stood back and refused to carry on with the lesson.

Even though I told him that the girl is a bit odd (it's true she is) he wouldn't go again.

(I have not seen her for a year or so)