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straycat
2nd-November-2008, 04:08 PM
Last weekender (last weekend) I did one of the 'taster' classes, which turned out to be built around a particular move. The first thing the teachers did was to ask the class whether there was anyone who didn't know the move.

I was the only person who stuck my hand up.

Which turned out to be the right thing to do, and they proceeded to teach the move from scratch, then teach a really good lesson around it. All great and everyone happy.

Except that ... I'd estimate (after a little asking around) that fully a third of the leaders in the class had never done the move before - an experienced follower could have followed it 'blind' with no problems, but it wasn't a move you could lead without learning it properly.

So here's the question... why, in a class with about twenty leaders in it, was I the only person prepared to publicly admit ignorance? Especially when it was very clear that anyone who didn't know the move was really going to struggle with the class? :confused:

Anyone got any ideas?

Lynn
2nd-November-2008, 04:20 PM
So here's the question... why, in a class with about twenty leaders in it, was I the only person prepared to publicly admit ignorance? Maybe because people, and men especially :rolleyes: don't like to admit to not knowing something?

David Franklin
2nd-November-2008, 04:30 PM
Some possible reasons:

1a) No-one wants to be the first (or only!) person to stick their hand up.

1b) Once someone else has stuck their hand up, why show yourself up by putting your hand up as well? Might as well bluff it.

2) Most people don't know the name of moves, so they don't actually know if they know the move or not.

3a) They think they know the move, but when it comes to it, they actually don't.

3b) Or they know some critically different version of the move.

4) Hey, I'm an 'advanced' dancer, I can pick it up in 15 secs from watching someone else.

But yes, it's a pain. More of a pain if you're trying to teach, I suspect...

rubyred
2nd-November-2008, 04:35 PM
So here's the question... why, in a class with about twenty leaders in it, was I the only person prepared to publicly admit ignorance? Especially when it was very clear that anyone who didn't know the move was really going to struggle with the class? :confused:

Anyone got any ideas?


Maybe people felt a bit embaressed and lacked the confidence to own up in such a public setting. If the teacher had reversed the question like 'hand up who have done this move before' then maybe the latter question isn't as awesome, because you are admitting to something which has come across in a more positive way .

When trying to explain things at times it may be more productive to try to make a point of saying, 'please feel free to stop and ask me anything that I have not made clear', rather than 'ask me about something you don't understand'. The emphasis being transferred onto the facilitator, and not hopefully undermining the person that they are working with. I think if things are put more positively then maybe this should get more of a response.

People's egos can be fragile, and at times they don't want to stand out from the crowd, admit defeat or failure or look daft cos they don't know what they think they should know.:flower:

straycat
2nd-November-2008, 04:37 PM
1a) No-one wants to be the first (or only!) person to stick their hand up.

1b) Once someone else has stuck their hand up, why show yourself up by putting your hand up as well? Might as well bluff it.

Well - not to sound too holier-than-they :whistle: - I was suffering a little from syndrome 1a), so I was a bit slow sticking my hand up. Which, at least, semi-rules out 1b) :blush:


2) Most people don't know the name of moves, so they don't actually know if they know the move or not.

They didn't actually name the move - they just demo'd it (just as well)

As for the rest of the possible reasons including Lynn's) - hmmm. Quite possibly. Do we really tend to make our lices that much harder for the sake of our pride? Actually - don't answer that, I already know the answer :blush:

straycat
2nd-November-2008, 04:40 PM
Maybe people felt a bit embaressed and lacked the confidence to own up in such a public setting. If the teacher had reversed the question like 'hand up who have done this move before' then maybe the latter question isn't as awesome, because you are admitting to something which has come across in a more positive way

You caused a slight lightbulb moment there. Yeah - that makes a lot of sense - thank you for that. I'd love to know the answer to that one, as I suspect you're absolutely right. I'll have to remember that if the situation is ever reversed.

Andy McGregor
2nd-November-2008, 05:39 PM
I get a similar situation at least once a month, if not more often. I always divide the class at the start of the intermediate/consolidation lessons. I say the same thing each time, "if you don't know the beginnes moves or struggled with the beginners lesson go with Steve/Barbara/etc, if you know the beginners moves stay in here" then I teach a beginners move variation in the intermediate lesson that starts like a sway/basket/octopus/etc (this move will usually have been one of the moves in the beginners lesson) - there's often one guy in the intermediate lesson who needs to be taught that beginners move - once I let my frustration show and in the teach of the beginners move said "if you're currently looking the opposite way to everyone else you would probably be be better off in the consolidation lesson" - thankfully his problem was mostly not listening to the teacher so I don't think he heard :innocent: This particular guy was visiting from elsewhere, didn't get the beginners lesson and surprised me by appearing in the intermediate lesson. I think he'd been going to lessons "elsewhere" for some time and usually did the intermediate lesson at that class - I've no idea if he got the lessons at those other classes. He's continued to turn up and is slowly getting better :waycool:

At a weekender it's difficult as you get all levels of dancer in your lessons. I think it was useful to ask the class about this move. But I like the suggestion from RubyRed that we ask people to indicate if they know the move. On the negative side, however, I've been to a lesson where the teacher did this and then asked the first person to raise their hand to demonstrate the move. Nobody else would put their hand up after that.

David Bailey
2nd-November-2008, 06:26 PM
So here's the question... why, in a class with about twenty leaders in it, was I the only person prepared to publicly admit ignorance?
Off the top of my head, because:
- We're British (mostly) and not used to speaking up
- No-one likes to admit ignorance
- We're conditioned within MJ to large, non-interactive classes

frodo
2nd-November-2008, 06:55 PM
Last weekender (last weekend) I did one of the 'taster' classes, which turned out to be built around a particular move. The first thing the teachers did was to ask the class whether there was anyone who didn't know the move.
...
So here's the question... why, in a class with about twenty leaders in it, was I the only person prepared to publicly admit ignorance? Especially when it was very clear that anyone who didn't know the move was really going to struggle with the class? :confused:

Anyone got any ideas?
Often visually it is difficult to tell if you know a move or not, when demonstrated visually, especially if not demonstrated multiple times, or in a position not at the front of the class, or you simply weren't paying attention at that moment.

And 'know' could mean a number of different things to different people.

NZ Monkey
2nd-November-2008, 07:18 PM
Maybe people felt a bit embaressed and lacked the confidence to own up in such a public setting. If the teacher had reversed the question like 'hand up who have done this move before' then maybe the latter question isn't as awesome, because you are admitting to something which has come across in a more positive way .
Something I learned from an extremely good martial arts teacher around five years ago:

Never ask a class if they have any questions. Not many people like to admit that they don't understand something. Instead, ask them what their questions are.

That way you're not just giving them permission to ask questions - you're telling them you expect them to, but without being condescending. The difference in response from a class when you deliver the question this way is usually considerable in my experience.

bigdjiver
2nd-November-2008, 08:39 PM
... I was the only person who stuck my hand up...Been there, done that, in other contexts.

In fact I have learned to look around the group at the expressions on the others faces. If I see it in their faces I have stuck my hand even if I think I do know it. Someone has to ask the stupid questions.

P.S. I responded, then read the other replies. Some really good tips there, thanks.

straycat
3rd-November-2008, 11:25 AM
- We're conditioned within MJ to large, non-interactive classes

Could be right about that one... but OTOH, it was a small class (15-20 couples?), people had been asking questions in other classes during the weekend, and it wasn't MJ - it was a Balboa weekender - so we're talking about an extremely technical dance. It's extremely hard to just 'muddle through' the more complex bal moves, unless you're extremely good...

ashenfie
3rd-November-2008, 11:45 AM
I think there is no one answers to this one. Now that I know how much I don’t know I would always put my hand up.

There are so many reasons why I would do that, as follows:-

1) Moves names are not consistently called the same across teachers.
2) No one teacher does a move the same. Some teachers even tell you one way and perform it another.
3) If I really do know the move, people think I am a fast learner.
4) I often forget the name of moves.
5) I have my own style for some moves and I like to use the teacher’s style in a class to avoid confusion by others.

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-November-2008, 12:36 PM
Anyone got any ideas?

You were the only person with no ego over the matter. Simple :)

ant
3rd-November-2008, 12:53 PM
"1-" Never ask a class if they have any questions...............
"2-" Instead, ask them what their questions are.


NZ - can you tell me what the difference is in 1 and 2 above. especially in relation to the senario presented in the OP where the teacher is requesting information.

becasue I feel Ruby Red was spot on.



Originally Posted by Ruby Red
Maybe people felt a bit embaressed and lacked the confidence to own up in such a public setting. If the teacher had reversed the question like 'hand up who have done this move before' then maybe the latter question isn't as awesome, because you are admitting to something which has come across in a more positive way .



The teacher was expecting the leads to know the move. Therefore expecting just the odd person to put up his hand, in a strange envirament.

If I did not know the move and I was in that situation I would certainly feel uncomfortable and think long and hard before I put my hand up, if I was the only one.:respect:to Straycats for having b-lls.

Whatever would go through my mind to make me feel uncomfortable I am not sure, presumably all those subconscious thoughts of insecurity.

The teacher should have asked the question from the positive either who knows the move or who would like to go over the move again, harder for the teacher but nobody in the class feels uncomfortable and a much more accurate analysis of the informaton required.

NZ Monkey
3rd-November-2008, 08:27 PM
NZ - can you tell me what the difference is in 1 and 2 above. especially in relation to the senario presented in the OP where the teacher is requesting information. In the first case, the teacher is asking if anyone has any questions and by implication offering them the opportunity to raise them.

In the second case the teacher is telling the class to ask the questions they know are out there. It’s extremely rare in my experience for everyone in a class of mixed ability to understand everything that’s been said right away. Telling them to ask the question is very close to removing a step in the decision making process for the student, and it’s the step that most people stumble over.

It’s not fool-proof of course. Some people will still be too shy to ask. In my experience it empowers the people who would have been on the cusp of asking a question but for whatever reason were not going to. That’s usually a significant number of people with questions over the course of an evening or workshop.

Personally, I’m with Straycat – I ask questions. Sometimes I ask questions I know the answer to that I think the class needs to hear and the teacher may have missed. Sometimes I’ve done that and found out I was wrong in the first place. Sometimes I’ve made myself look like a fool asking those questions. Sometimes having a lack of shame is an advantage :whistle:

Rachel
4th-November-2008, 02:38 PM
Maybe people felt a bit embaressed and lacked the confidence to own up in such a public setting. If the teacher had reversed the question like 'hand up who have done this move before' then maybe the latter question isn't as awesome, because you are admitting to something which has come across in a more positive way.This is what Marc tries to remember to do when teaching, because of exactly the same situation.


When trying to explain things at times it may be more productive to try to make a point of saying, 'please feel free to stop and ask me anything that I have not made clear', rather than 'ask me about something you don't understand'. The emphasis being transferred onto the facilitator, and not hopefully undermining the person that they are working with. I think if things are put more positively then maybe this should get more of a response.I completely agree with this and again, learned the hard way. I was doing some software training to a large group of Latin Americans in Mexico and, because I was a little unsure of my Spanish, I kept asking 'do you understand?'. Until the facilitator took me aside to explain this was really implying that they were at fault and were too stupid to understand me. Instead I should be asking 'have I made myself clear?'


Never ask a class if they have any questions. Not many people like to admit that they don't understand something. Instead, ask them what their questions are.

That way you're not just giving them permission to ask questions - you're telling them you expect them to, but without being condescending. The difference in response from a class when you deliver the question this way is usually considerable in my experience.I think this is brilliant! I'd never thought of that before. I'm going to try this at work - thanks!
Rachel