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SwingSwingSwing
2nd-August-2002, 01:24 PM
Found an interesting article on Planet Jive this week. A dancer who sustained a serious injury while being "dropped".

See http://www.planetjive.co.uk

SwingSwingSwing

Gus
2nd-August-2002, 02:51 PM
Took the liberty of copying the pertinent points from the PlanetJive website


The partner of modern jive promoter Colin Shaul has been left with a serious back injury after a rogue dancer threw her into a "drop" move.

Now Colin is appealing for an end to dancefloor "madness", and drops expert Peter Phillips is offering free lessons in a bid to improve safety.

Colin Shaul's partner Colleen was injured by a visitor to one of the LeRoc dance nights the couple run in Surrey. "It wasn't a member of ours," said Colin. "It was a visitor to one of our dances, and he did it after he was told Colleen didn't do drops. I cannot and never will understand men even doing these moves on crowded floors. I am already aware of many girls who have long term back problems. A few years back a male idiot did a drop on a girl placing his knee as a brake in her back. The result was a broken vertebrae. And it's likely to happen again."

Colin is urging male dancers to take more care with drops. "The message needs to go out before something serious happens. Please do something to help control the madness that's going on out there," he appealed. "Let's keep modern jive fun."

Moron
Drops expert Peter Phillips condemned the dancer who injured Colleen as a "moron who threw her into drop without a thought for her welfare". Peter is preparing a dos and don'ts guide for drops and seducers, which will be free to all organisers.
He added: "I am also prepared to give a free drops and seducers class with emphasis on safety, at any venue, for any organiser throughout the South and beyond

Nottingham jive teacher John Sweeney said: "Many men try to perform drops without understanding the basic safety aspects, and many ladies who haven't been taught how to protect themselves during a drop finding themselves being forced and twisted into drops by men who are relying on strength instead of technique. But it is not just the men. A lady who is lacking in technique and who throws too much weight in the wrong direction at the wrong time can badly damage a man's back. Like Pete, I perform and teach an extensive range of drops and seducers and would, likewise, be prepared to teach a free lesson at your weekly evening class if it will help everyone to do drops more safely."


Couple of points;

1) This is not the first such incident. IÕm aware of something very similar when an independent dance teacher was allegedly dropped badly by a senior instructor of a well know large dance organisation. Legal proceedings ensued (IÕve no idea of the outcome).

2) The offers from drop ÔexpertsÕ to teach safe drops is encouraging but there are a few questions ... like who classifies ÔexpertsÕ? IÕve seen many drops workshops by ÔexpertsÕ and have seem some horrendous drops taught with little real understanding of what will happen on the dancefloor.

Put it this way, Ceroc teacher training is regarded as the best Modern Jive training bar none ... and even we are not allowed to just go and start teaching drops striaght off! I have seem complex double neck drops taught in mass classes to dancers who I wouldnÕt have trusted to catch a pudding never mind a badly trained woman.

In short, if you want to learn drops, PLEASE consult your Ceroc teacher first. They may not be the best person to teach drops but they will always know someone who can (I only teach beginner and intermediate drops myself, I leave the advanced stuff to experts like Jump'n'Jive). Remember, Ceroc teachers are professionally trained by the CTA, many so called teachers are self-taught. There is an infinity of difference between being able to do a drop and being able to teach one well ... who would you trust.

Please understand that IÕm not dissing instructors like Peter and John. They are both accomplished dancers in their own right. What I am saying is that get advice from your local CTA teacher first!

Amanda
2nd-August-2002, 03:37 PM
Thanks to both of you for the above. This is a very important subject that deserves to be highlighted. Sadly for me this is an all too familiar story... I have serious back problems and suffer significant pain 24 hours a day.

Sometimes a really good dance can turn into a nightmare in a split second. Despite clear safety instructions being given out at every class where drops/seducers etc are taught, I have occasionally found that basic safety advice is ignored and I have found myself being thrown towards the ground, without warning, in quite a terrifying manner.

Naturally injuries have arisen from these situations and these have cost me dear in Osteopathy fees and heartache. I appreciate that for many it can be hard to imagine that one second's carelessness and lack of consideration could possibly result in their partner being unable to walk shortly after a dance move, but it can happen.

For obvious reasons I NEVER do any drops, seducers - even leans are too painful. I want to feel safe and secure every time I walk onto the dancefloor with a new partner. I always let dance partners know about my problems (to the point of boredom but this stems from a very real terror of something going wrong...) but sadly the message does not always seem to penetrate.

There have been occasions when I have been on the receiving end of a 'macho' response to my request along the lines of "You'll be OK with me..." From a medical point of view I will never be OK with anyone - even a slight jar can dislodge a vertebra.

Amanda

John S
2nd-August-2002, 05:22 PM
This is a really serious subject, and needs to be addressed.

There's also been a good discussion of it in the DJ Booth under "Finishing Flourish" - that thread should be read along with this, to get the overall picture and the degree of concern that exists about thoughtless (and potentially dangerous) behaviour.

Gus
2nd-August-2002, 05:54 PM
The question was raised on one thread (I forget which) about the liability of the franchisee in the case of a drop through 'dangerous play'. If I remember what I've been told, if a Franchisee makes a constant attempt to stop dangerous play, then misses someone doing it, then they would be liable ... the logic was along the lines that if you clear your path of snow and someone slips then you are liable wheras if you do nothing then you are in the clear!

Again, this is mostly hearsay and there is probably no clear legal prescedent at the moment (and of course Scottish law can be significantly different to law in England and Wales)

Logic says that there should be an ongoing process of educating dancers as to ettiquete and reminding people what is and isn't acceptable. At my own venue I had no problem in going up to dancers on th floor and asking them to stop dancing that I thought was dangerous. Some people took exception but I left them with the choice of stopping or I'd stop them by escorting them from the premises .. their call.:what:

I've found myslef in an uncomfortable positon at other ceroc venues where, though I'm a CTA teaher, I wasn't the resident teacher. I'd expect the venue manager to deal with the situation .. but that rarely happens (in fact once it was the Ceroc teacher and the venue manger doing the aerials!!)

So .. where does that leave the dancers? Dunno. Scott, Obi, Frank ... got any comments.


Please note, the above comments are my personal views, not as a CTA teacher.

DavidB
6th-August-2002, 01:50 PM
Sorry Franck and Gus - I think Ceroc must shoulder a lot of the blame for people doing drops, and doing them badly.

At the last 5 Ceroc intermediate classes I've been to, the teacher has taught a drop.

In all of these classes, the majority of the people in the class had real problems learning any of the dance moves. Many had done less than 5 beginners classes - indeed for one lady I spoke to, it was her first night!

In two of these classes, the teacher did say that you tell your partner if you didn't want to do the drop. But neither gave you chance to do this when rotating the class. The other classes just assumed that everyone would do the drop.

Only one teacher explicitly mentioned safety. He said "Please be careful doing this drop - you can get hurt". He didn't say how to be careful, or where the danger would arise. But at least it was more than the other classes.

All the teachers did show the men where to hold the lady. Unfortunately all of the classes were big, and you had no chance of seeing the teacher if you are at the back of the class. None of the teachers told the lady how to hold herself.

None of the teachers said anything about warming up. None of the teachers said anything about looking around to make sure you had room. None of the teachers gave any indication about when to do drops in the music.

And then people wonder why some intermediates think its normal to do a drop every 4 moves. It's what they are taught to do!!!

I know Ceroc are not the only people who teach drops. And they may very well be better trained than other teachers. But this standard of teaching drops falls well below what I would expect. More importantly it probably falls well below the standard a court would expect.

I understand that drops are very popular, and people still want to learn them. So please keep them out of classes, and teach them only in special workshops. And please keep them off a crowded dance floor. And please please please check with your partner first before doing any! I don't want to have to fork out a few pounds extra every time I go dancing to pay for the organiser's liability insurance. And I don't want to have any more ladies stop dancing for 6 months while they recover from injuries.

David

Gus
6th-August-2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Sorry Franck and Gus - I think Ceroc must shoulder a lot of the blame for people doing drops, and doing them badly.

At the last 5 Ceroc intermediate classes I've been to, the teacher has taught a drop.

Dave ... I guess that this is at London clubs. All CTA teachers are rained to teach drops ... BUT, these are regarded as restricted moves and most are NOT to be taught in class ("red moves"). The remainder may be taught in class but ALWAYS with an alternative ("orange moves") . It is drilled into us during training that drops should be taught with extreme caution.

I too must admit that I've been taught drops badly in a Ceroc class ... but even the worst 'Ceroc' drop I've been taught is an order of magnitude better than what is being taught by the cowboys on the open circuit. There are two indivduals especially in the North West (though one has had the good grace to retire before someone 'retired' him) who were the bane of my life. You could spot the poor unfortunate souls who had been to their lesons ... and more unfortunate was the awfull drops they were subjecting my poor ladies to.

In short .. if you see a Ceroc teacher teaching a drop badly, report him/her to Ceroc Dance HQ. It is in everyones best interests that Ceroc teachers maintain the high level of teaching that the CTA strives towards. Though I am no longer a member of the CTA I will alwys be gratefull for the gruelling training course I had to go through so that I could proudly regard myself as a CTA teacher.

Franck
7th-August-2002, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I understand that drops are very popular, and people still want to learn them. So please keep them out of classes, and teach them only in special workshops. Hi David,

You raise a lot of very good points re. safety while teaching drops.
This is one of my bug bears (sp?).
Drops are indeed very popular and often requested, and I reckon that not teaching them at all in a class context would be a shame. Especially since if you do not teach them, some people will attempt to do them without any training, which would result in more injuries.
However, safety and comfort must be the prime considerations. As Gus mentions, all CTA teachers will have received safety training, and all "dangerous" moves are described as such in a teacher's notes, with the proviso that if taught, there should be a suitable alternative move offered in the routine (ie a slow comb when teaching a Lambada comb).
The point about making sure that every time you change partner, the teacher should make sure everyone checks whether their new partner is happy to do the move (without stigma, ie the teacher should stress that there are many reasons why you might not want to do that move, and if you are getting tired you can change your mind, ie do the move a couple of times and then stop for a while).
Of course, I also agree that warming up should be mentionned (and practised during the class, ie teach the move towards the end of the class rather than at the start of the routine), and dance floor space will always be an issue, so remind all participants to only do the move when there is plenty of space (a quiet night or a very large venue), and only with partners whom you know have learnt that move and are happy to dance it with you.

If the above are not mentionned or heeded during a class, I would recommend you talk to the teacher expressing your concerns in the first instance, you can also talk to the Franchise owner about it (myself for Glasgow / Aberdeen) or Jean Harris (for Edinburgh Dundee) for example.
As Gus says, we strive to reach very high standards of teaching and need your feedback to maintain them.

Franck.

Gus
17th-August-2002, 11:21 AM
Guys,

previously mentioned an incident a few yaers ago that led to the involvement of legal parties against a Modern Jive instructor.

Managed to find out last weekend the outcome. The version of events I got (and I alwys realise that there are two sides) is that the injured party was told that she would un doubtedly win the prosecution, however, as the teacher wa being fully backed by hois dance organistion, the costs may not cover the legal expenses ..... so the case did not go to court. Pity, I hate to see the big guys win because they've got more muscle rather than they are right.

HOWEVER, the moral of the story guys is that you injure someone though throwing them into a dumb drop .... you could end up on the wrong side of a courtroom ... think about that the next time you feel the need to show off!

Oh ... by the way .... its not alwys the guys fault .... last Thursday I was dancing with (a very good) female dancer and just rested my hand on her nearest shoulder as I'd totaly blanked ... the next thing she's trying to drop on me!!!:tears:

She'd mistaken my 'lead' for the signal for a Robbie Dip (must admit I didn't know that move was widely known) ... but the signal for that is very different. Goes back to the key point of a drop ... ladies , if you ain't supported, you DON'T go down ... please

Gus
9th-November-2004, 10:24 AM
Time has come to resurrect this thread again.

Just come back from the Ribby weekender. One of my female mates has got a damaged right shoulder so has to be careful about who she dances with. She was in the Blues room where a well known individual asked her to dance. Knowing his rep she explicitly told him NO DROPS because of her shoulder .... to which his response was to tell her "its all in the lead" and proceed to do a major drop on her :tears: :tears:

The gnetlemen concerned knows who he is and I would like to take this opportunity to explain to the common masses why he thought he knew best. The lass concerned spent the following hours in agony :(

Chicklet
9th-November-2004, 10:35 AM
I would like to
just so you don't get unfairly blamed here bud, did you type "him" with your invisible keys??????

Gus
9th-November-2004, 10:51 AM
just so you don't get unfairly blamed here bud, did you type "him" with your invisible keys??????DOH!! :tears: Not enough sleep...

OK ... I would like HIM to explain his logic ...

Is that better?

MartinHarper
9th-November-2004, 11:20 AM
The remainder may be taught in class but ALWAYS with an alternative ("orange moves").

How about teaching the safe version as standard, with the "orange move" as an alternative for people who like pain?

Lounge Lizard
9th-November-2004, 12:26 PM
following the incident at the top of this thread I offered FREE midweek drops class to any organisation south of the thames - no one was interested

Colin banned drops at one venue cos it had a small busy dance floor - so the dancers stopped going

I have been teaching drops since 1998 and found a new way to get injured over the weekend, a lady (who was ok with drops - and knew me) put her hand omto the floor in the middle of a low seducer....she stopped I did not, well not until I felt that sudden jarring in my lower back - I have fairly strong back muscles but it still hurt - I hate to think of the effect on a guy with a weak back
LL

David Franklin
9th-November-2004, 12:43 PM
I have been teaching drops since 1998 and found a new way to get injured over the weekend, a lady (who was ok with drops - and knew me) put her hand omto the floor in the middle of a low seducer....she stopped I did not, well not until I felt that sudden jarring in my lower back - I have fairly strong back muscles but it still hurt - I hate to think of the effect on a guy with a weak back.Been there, done that. I don't think ladies realise how often the "hand down" isn't actually visible from the man's position. So we think there's lots of margin before reaching the ground - but we haven't taken into account the hand hidden by her body which is nearly 2 feet lower. :tears: Putting a hand down may give protection for some, but I find it's just a liability...

Was wondering, what do you advise women to do with their 'load bearing' arms on drops (e.g. ballroom drop)? For nearly every drop, I find it is much much easier if the woman lets her arms go straight and just trusts the man to keep her off the floor, rather than if she tries to hold herself up. And yet I'm really hesitant to give "trust the man" as general advice...

Dave

jivecat
9th-November-2004, 01:28 PM
In all of these classes, the majority of the people in the class had real problems learning any of the dance moves. Many had done less than 5 beginners classes - indeed for one lady I spoke to, it was her first night!


David

Beginners often move on far too early for all sorts of challenging moves as well as drops. I've read on the forum that in New Zealand/Aussie cerocers have to receive a seal of approval from their instructor as to when they are ready to move up to harder levels ( I hope I've got this right). I know the system is not likely to be popular here but might help to avoid some of the problems mentioned on this thread.

I have also seen extremely complicated drops being taught to classes where the majority of people were having significant difficulty coping with the mechanics of basic moves. In fact, that's totally commonplace. But it's rare to find a teacher suggesting that people should sit out until they're ready for it, or entry to a class being restricted to a certain level and above (although I've noticed more recently). Again, such measures are likely to cause an outcry and are completely unworkable once people have parted with good money to attend a workshop.

The general rule at Ceroc classes is that people shouldn't try the intermediate class until they have been attending at least 6 weeks though that would still be too early for some people. I don't think it would cause too many problems for this to be more strictly enforced - people usually respect a system which they can perceive to have clear benefits and which is supported by more experienced dancers. Especially when the beginners are given something purposeful to do during the intermediate classes like a top-up class in a nearby room.

With regard to the lady adopting the correct body position to protect herself, and the man, and in order for the move to look good I think it requires a reasonable level of fitness. The advice I've heard is to keep the stomach muscles taut, which helps to avoid that "sack of potatoes" look and, I think, prevents the lady from being a dead weight on the man. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. My feeling is that I'd rather stick to moves that I can do well & with some elegance, within the limits of my fitness and physical ability- but this is not encouraged by Ceroc classes in general. But then Ceroc's profits might take a dip if three-quarters of the class were told to come back after they'd spent 3 months down the gym! There is a reason, after all, why professional dancers have bodies like hungry whippets. :tears:

Whenever I've been put into dodgy drop by someone I often say that they're not supposed to do them without permission - and they're amazed and clearly this has never occurred to them. So they're learning drops from somewhere without being given basic safety rules.

John S
9th-November-2004, 02:18 PM
I've read on the forum that in New Zealand/Aussie cerocers have to receive a seal of approval from their instructor as to when they are ready to move up to harder levels ( I hope I've got this right). I know the system is not likely to be popular here ................

Dunno whether the information about NZ/Oz is correct or not, but it does seem to me to be an excellent idea. At the venues I attend, I often see guys doing drops (a) in dangerous situations, ie crowded dancefloors and (b) with relatively inexperienced ladies - I think there's a "power/dominance" thing going on there somewhere! :mad:

Personally I'm not a great fan of drops apart from the simpler ones - I reckon the more complex ones, as well as lifts, are more about gymnastics than dancing, and are better suited to showcase-type situations, but if we must have them then I would welcome some formal arrangement for those who want to do them (ladies as well as men), eg satisfactory performance at a formal workshop where emphasis was put on safety and etiquette as well as technique.

Lounge Lizard
9th-November-2004, 03:56 PM
Was wondering, what do you advise women to do with their 'load bearing' arms on drops (e.g. ballroom drop)? For nearly every drop, I find it is much much easier if the woman lets her arms go straight and just trusts the man to keep her off the floor, rather than if she tries to hold herself up. And yet I'm really hesitant to give "trust the man" as general advice...

DaveNooooooo
dont agree with this
if the lady straightens her arms and the guy does the same she hits the floor (even with tall men) if she has her head back then she is possibly in a coma!
I teach the ladies keep their arms in at the start of the move and extend them during the move.
Peter

David Franklin
9th-November-2004, 05:21 PM
Nooooooo
dont agree with this
if the lady straightens her arms and the guy does the same she hits the floor (even with tall men) if she has her head back then she is possibly in a coma!
I teach the ladies keep their arms in at the start of the move and extend them during the move.
PeterThanks for the comment - I would have trusted the guy to not do that! I have even trusted the woman not to do that on occasion! But I would never put my head back...

Dave

jockey
9th-November-2004, 07:43 PM
Not many dancers have commented on this thorny topic. I"m a dancer who uses drops fairly frequently. A few thoughts:
1.Peter Phillips taught me drops originally and there is NOBODY more safety conscious than he;
2.I always ask first;
3. I always have a good look round first not only at the space situation but at the kinds of dancers I have around me;
4. I'm always ready to abort;
5 As for drops being a form of showing off I think that the menaces do think this (especially younger dancers...);
and 6. Roger Chinn won the DWAS competition at Britrock without doing a single drop nor lean.

Minnie M
9th-November-2004, 08:17 PM
............a well known individual asked her to dance. Knowing his rep she explicitly told him NO DROPS because of her shoulder .... to which his response was to tell her "its all in the lead" and proceed to do a major drop on her............

:angry:
I once did a 'seducer' by a well known and experienced dancer, who pulled me up too quickly - I had whiplash pains for about 2 weeks after that.

Being a big girl :tears: , I would normally always say no when a lead puts me into a 'drop' position (not that it happens very often for the same reason :rolleyes: )

BTW - I luuuuuuuuv leans :drool:

Jive Brummie
9th-November-2004, 09:39 PM
Name and shame......NAME AND SHAME!!!

JB x x

Gus
9th-November-2004, 10:00 PM
Name and shame......NAME AND SHAME!!!Would love to but thats not quite cricket dear chap :wink:

The point I was trying to make is over and above the usual rules about drops (see Pete Phillips excellent Does and Dont that should be available at ALL venues).

The perpetrator is an instructor and so has no defence re ignorance of technique or ettiquette ... the point is that a male lead TOTALY ignored and explicit instruction from his partner. The fact that there are still dancers like this on the circuit (and they STILL get invited to teach) drives me nuts. To my knowldeg only one such offender has been banned in the North West (and he's now been let back in) :mad: .

Where does the buck stop? Are franchisees/venue managers just ignoring the problem or are people too afraid to complain? Question, out all the 1000's of dancers in Scotland, know anyone who has been cautioned for dangerous dancing ... or doesnt the problem exist up North?

Magic Hans
10th-November-2004, 02:06 AM
Found an interesting article on Planet Jive this week. A dancer who sustained a serious injury while being "dropped".

See http://www.planetjive.co.uk

SwingSwingSwing

A similar note for aerials:

Girls dies in Jive accident (http://golgi.ana.ed.ac.uk/Swing/warning.html)

I did Martin Eaden's ('scuse any misspelling!) non-strength aerials workshop at Southport in May. It was (imho) excellent.

As well as pairing couples off, in order that they can look out for each other, he also had 2 or 3 aerial "police", whose job seemed to be to dive into any situation at all that had any suspicion of even approaching any danger, minor or major!


At the time, it seemed a little molly-coddling and patronising. In retrospect, it was very sensible and wise!

I don't think that I'd do another aerials workshop without at least one or two aerial police present!!

Ian

LilyB
10th-November-2004, 02:55 AM
.... The perpetrator is an instructor and so has no defence re ignorance of technique or ettiquette ...
You are, no doubt, suggesting that all instructors are fully knowledgeable in technique and etiquette? :whistle: :devil:

I think you are sadly mistaken there! :sick: :tears:

Yliander
10th-November-2004, 05:03 AM
Beginners often move on far too early for all sorts of challenging moves as well as drops. I've read on the forum that in New Zealand/Aussie cerocers have to receive a seal of approval from their instructor as to when they are ready to move up to harder levels ( I hope I've got this right). I know the system is not likely to be popular here but might help to avoid some of the problems mentioned on this thread. Nicky Haslam's company Ceroc & Modern Jive in Sydney have a system of blue & gold cards which grant you entrance into special higher level class, which seems to work very well - although I think it would take me a while to be brave enough to ask for assement - although I have been assured it is painless.



Was wondering, what do you advise women to do with their 'load bearing' arms on drops (e.g. ballroom drop)? For nearly every drop, I find it is much much easier if the woman lets her arms go straight and just trusts the man to keep her off the floor, rather than if she tries to hold herself up. And yet I'm really hesitant to give "trust the man" as general advice...

Dave


Nooooooo
dont agree with this
if the lady straightens her arms and the guy does the same she hits the floor (even with tall men) if she has her head back then she is possibly in a coma!
I teach the ladies keep their arms in at the start of the move and extend them during the move.
Peter

I have always been taught that the girl should have her arms straight and that the guy should keep his arms bent - and not allow his hands to go below his waist - no matter what his height - to ensure that the lady doesn't hit the floor. (if you have a dancer partner this can be changed - as i know my dance partner straightens his arms sometimes - but he knows that i won't hit the floor)

i find that if my arms are bent in a ballroom drop it is harder to maintain the correct body tension and line and in some cases feel pressure on my lower back.

Gary
10th-November-2004, 06:35 AM
Beginners often move on far too early for all sorts of challenging moves as well as drops. I've read on the forum that in New Zealand/Aussie cerocers have to receive a seal of approval from their instructor as to when they are ready to move up to harder levels ( I hope I've got this right).
For Ceroc and Modern Jive, anyone can join the normal intermediate class, there are occasional Intermediate/Advanced classes which anyone can join but have a separate rotation for people with an Intermediate/Advanced card, and even less frequent Advanced classes where you must have an Intermediate/Advanced card to join, or an Advanced card to join the Advanced rotation.

For Ceroc Australia there's something similar, with the addition of a "Freestyler" card which is (loosely, I think) required before you can join the normal intermediate class.

None of these things are very strictly policed, but they do hopefully make people stop and think before launching into classes which they probably won't cope with.

Claire S
10th-November-2004, 02:13 PM
I was put into a drop last night by two separate men & I was TOTALLY unprepared for it! :sick:
They were different drops so I didn't even see it coming the 2nd time.
I've only been dancing for 5 weeks & I hadn't danced with either man before.
In both cases they were done before I realised what was happening (I was just following & suddenly I was nearly horizontal! :what: )

It WAS quite exhilarating, but I was very aware that I had no idea what I was doing.
I would have much preferred to have been taught the move & be dancing with someone I know & trust, before attempting something like that.
I actually felt pretty safe with the first man, just a bit vulnerable, but I was already feeling quite uncomfortable with the second & pulling me over backwards & catching me didn't help.
I'll not dance with him again.

A friend was with me for her first class last night & it happened to her too.
I hope it doesn't put her off... if it had happened to me in my first week I would definitely have thought twice about coming back.
It's not put me off because I'm already hooked, but I will be a little more careful with my dance partners from now on.

Lynn
10th-November-2004, 03:04 PM
A friend was with me for her first class last night & it happened to her too.
I hope it doesn't put her off... if it had happened to me in my first week I would definitely have thought twice about coming back.
It's not put me off because I'm already hooked, but I will be a little more careful with my dance partners from now on. How is this happening? Men should not be doing drops with beginner women, especially not in the first week! :mad: I know there probably isn't much point in giving off on this forum as the guys on here have more sense, but we must all make the effort to spread the word that a man should check with the woman first if she is happy with drops if he has never danced with her before. (If he has and she has been OK with them in the past but doesn't want to do any due to an injury etc, then I think she should say to him, otherwise its up to the man to check first.

Gus
10th-November-2004, 08:47 PM
How is this happening? Men should not be doing drops with beginner women, especially not in the first week! :mad: Old question again ... what are the franchisees/venue manager/teachers doing about it?? Shouldnt be too hard to work out where Claire S was. Were the incidents reported? Was one of them our serial dropper?

ChrisA
10th-November-2004, 09:16 PM
Old question again ... what are the franchisees/venue manager/teachers doing about it??
Clearly nothing that is any use whatsoever. :tears:

And before franchisees and venue managers start flaming me because they have their teachers mention during the classes how important it is not to do this kind of thing - it clearly is not working.

I would be surprised if I have been to a single even remotely busy freestyle in the last two years, where I haven't had to avoid kicking some poor lady in the head, because of some muppet that is so caught up with how much he's enjoying what he's doing that consideration for anyone except himself is thrown to the winds. And there's a good chance that if he's so inconsiderate as to put his partner's head in the way of people's feet, he's also doing the drops unsafely :mad: :mad:

The message simply is not getting through. And it won't, as long as the organisers tacitly take the view that the problem isn't serious enough to adopt any really strong-arm tactics.

For that is what would be needed to get through to the offenders - they are already so inconsiderate that the danger and selfishness of their actions just doesn't occur to them, so a gentle, often humorous warning from the stage, during a class they may not have taken part in, will be like water off a duck's back.

Unfortunately, the culture of selfishness will take some shifting.

One idea is to have the organiser/franchisee or his representative actively watch for the offenders, and go up to them during the dance and warn them. Then ban then if they reoffend. There are all sorts of variants of this - if there are lots of people doing it the music can be stopped and a strong warning given out for instance. This happened once at Hipsters when someone was knocked unconscious. But even that will only fix things for a short while.

Draconian? Well yes. It will probably cost some good will, and maybe some numbers.

It all depends on whether the culture change is seen as important enough, and whether the price is payable.

Chris

jivecat
10th-November-2004, 10:12 PM
For Ceroc and Modern Jive, anyone can join the normal intermediate class, there are occasional Intermediate/Advanced classes which anyone can join but have a separate rotation for people with an Intermediate/Advanced card, and even less frequent Advanced classes where you must have an Intermediate/Advanced card to join, or an Advanced card to join the Advanced rotation.

For Ceroc Australia there's something similar, with the addition of a "Freestyler" card which is (loosely, I think) required before you can join the normal intermediate class.



Thanks, Gary and Yliander for your replies. It sounds a bit complicated but should have a lot of appeal for those, such as myself, with Girl Guide mentalities. The other 99.9% would take some convincing. There's quite enough bitching about who's better than who as it is, not to mention hotshotism, without the added complication of teachers awarding grades. I can imagine lots of people storming off in a huff if they didn't get the result they felt they deserved (probably me). Does this ever happen, as far as you know? Or do people totally trust the judgement and integrity of the teachers who administer the system?

P.S. I've just looked "hotshotism" up in the Jivecat Modern Dictionary of Dance Terminology and it is definitely there.

Lounge Lizard
10th-November-2004, 11:13 PM
I have always been taught that the girl should have her arms straight and that the guy should keep his arms bent - and not allow his hands to go below his waist - no matter what his height - to ensure that the lady doesn't hit the floor. (if you have a dancer partner this can be changed - as i know my dance partner straightens his arms sometimes - but he knows that i won't hit the floor)

i find that if my arms are bent in a ballroom drop it is harder to maintain the correct body tension and line and in some cases feel pressure on my lower back.
I agree in an ideal world the lady could/should rely on the guy to keep his arms bent and correctly support the her, unfortunatly we are not in an ideal world and all to often the guy learns from watching other dancers or is not taught properly, IMHO the lady should do whatever she can to support herself and add to her safety, if she extends her arms fully and the guy does the same she will hit the floor and if her head is tipped back.............ouch! So thats why I advice the ladies to keep her arms in unless she knows her partner is a safe dancer with this move
LL

Gary
11th-November-2004, 06:20 AM
... I can imagine lots of people storming off in a huff if they didn't get the result [going for a Intermediate/Advanced "certification"] they felt they deserved (probably me). Does this ever happen, as far as you know? Or do people totally trust the judgement and integrity of the teachers who administer the system? ...
Some folks get upset when they think they deserve an I/A card and don't get one. The standard applied has been a little uneven because all the I/A teachers can hand out cards, and they have different standards, and/or different levels of resistance to "aww, please?!". As a guy having a card or not makes not a great deal of difference to me, but there's a significant difference for the girls between the I/A line and the "not I/A" line (as well as your standard ego issues).

I'm very glad that I am not involved in handing out the cards.

MartinHarper
23rd-November-2004, 12:13 PM
We're told by the teacher to not to drops when the floor is crowded.
The floor is never more crowded than during an intermediate class.
We're taught to do drops during the intermediate class.

Anyone recognise that picture?

Gus
23rd-November-2004, 12:36 PM
We're told by the teacher to not to drops when the floor is crowded.
The floor is never more crowded than during an intermediate class.
We're taught to do drops during the intermediate class.
Oh yes ... and then we have teachers who dont think a dance is complete without the woman spending most of her time horizontal. :mad: Isnt it time for teachers to take responsibility and lead by example (YES .. I KNOW that most do)

jivecat
23rd-November-2004, 03:16 PM
Oh yes ... and then we have teachers who dont think a dance is complete without the woman spending most of her time horizontal. :mad: Isnt it time for teachers to take responsibility and lead by example (YES .. I KNOW that most do)


I do find it quite amusing when the dance ends and 90% of the women in the room are draped across their partners knee! Perhaps it could be pointed out by teachers that there are different, and more original, ways of ending a dance satisfactorily?

jivecat
23rd-November-2004, 03:44 PM
[QUOTE=Claire S]It WAS quite exhilarating, but I was very aware that I had no idea what I was doing.
I would have much preferred to have been taught the move & be dancing with someone I know & trust, before attempting something like that.
[QUOTE]

I don't usually get this feeling with drops any more - if I'm really worried about the leader I can always resist, or keep most of my weight on my leg so he can't carry out the move. I know this is very naughty but I don't see what else there is to do if I don't trust the guy. And the distance to fall is quite small, as long as I don't get my head kicked in on the way down. I have been dropped once, by an inexperienced chap whose puny legs failed completely under my moderate bulk. Luckily the damage was purely to my dignity - though it would have been different if I'd had a long-standing back problem.

I was at a class on Friday where the intermediates were being taught a nose-dive (with the ladies lunging into it , to protect themselves, as the teacher explained) which converted into a ball room hold and drop - I hope I've got the names right. A really exhilarating combination when led well, but not achievable by 75% of people doing the class. I dropped out after a while as it seemed so pointless to be standing there explaining to people that I didn't want to drop into the drop we'd just been told to do- because I didn't trust the guy. Well, I left that last bit out.

I get more frightened, more insecure and feel more at risk of injury by partners who try to get me to do aerials, jumps and other complex moves by barking a sudden instruction and then when I don't get it stopping in the middle of a crowded dance floor to "teach" it to me. I'd love to learn these moves - but only in a systematic and disciplined way with a partner that I trust. My concern about jumps or aerials is that if the landing is poor, or off-balance (highly likely in a move I have no preparation for) then the high impact is likely to damage my knees or ankles. Not to mention the ever-present risk of it looking absolutely dire. Just don't do this to me, fellas. (Not that I think forumites would!)

Rachel
23rd-November-2004, 04:01 PM
I do find it quite amusing when the dance ends and 90% of the women in the room are draped across their partners knee! Perhaps it could be pointed out by teachers that there are different, and more original, ways of ending a dance satisfactorily? ... :yeah: I'm usually so surprised and delighted when my dance partner doesn't end with a lean or drop, that I often spontaneously congratulate them! Good point to get the teachers to pass on other ideas - maybe a whole class dedicated to learning one move with a whole series of different endings/poses to finish a dance - none of them a drop!


I was at a class on Friday where the intermediates were being taught a nose-dive (with the ladies lunging into it , to protect themselves, as the teacher explained) which converted into a ball room hold and drop - I hope I've got the names right. A really exhilarating combination when led well, but not achievable by 75% of people doing the class. ... I wouldn't do the nose-dive with anyone, not even Marc. And I don't want to do it, thank you, no matter how many times a guy tells me 'it's easy' and they can teach it to me no problem.
Rachel

Chickadee
23rd-November-2004, 06:18 PM
I've had 2 injuries now from being dropped (literally!). At Southport I hurt my lower back and I have just come back from the doctors having badly damaged the ligament in my left foot (won't be dancing for a while :tears: ) because of another incident at Camber. I found that at Camber there were some beginners who had obviously just been to a 'drops' class and thought they were all of a sudden 'professional droppers'. I had one guy ask me how my back was which I thought was a little strange and a split second later he threw me upside down over his knee and smacked my head on the floor! I think it's so important that the woman is asked CLEARLY AND IN ADVANCE if they don't mind drops and if possible, tell them what kind of drop it will be (I know this is not always possible). They mustn't ask the woman whilst dropping her if she likes doing drops!

Divissima
23rd-November-2004, 08:39 PM
Ouch! Chickadee, you sound as though you've had some nasty experiences. I hope your foot gets better quickly. Like Jivecat, I have to say I've developed a tendency to refuse or thwart a drop or seducer with men I don't trust to protect my safety (either because I've had a bad experience with them in the past or because the dancefloor is very crowded). Some men I trust implicitly even on a crowded dancefloor, but it does take time to build up that kind of trust.

I have an extremely good memory for faces so I usually know if I've met or danced with someone before - and I have an excellent memory for people I've either had a fantastic dance experience with or those who have caused me pain. The last time (about a year ago) I asked someone not to drop me at all because I wanted to protect my back, he told me he could drop me safely and put me into a drop but left his knee in the way :mad: :( Needless to say I won't be dancing with him ever again. These days I would almost certainly try to resist drops with someone I've specifically asked not to drop me.

Daisy Chain
23rd-November-2004, 08:41 PM
I quite agree with Jivecat and Chickadee about drop injuries. I've also been injured by that ghastly move called The Windmill.

We had a right to right hand hold and my partner yelled "Windmill" at me. I hadn't been dancing very long but since I knew this move, I confidently moved to wards his right armpit. At the last minute, he swapped to his left hand and did a mirror image of the move that I was expecting. The violent yank as he hauled me across to his left armpit pulled something in my chest that night. It must have been the muscles attaching the ribs to the sternum (?) and it was very painful. Couldn't lean forward without squealing for weeks.

Daisy

(A Fragile Little Flower)

Gojive
23rd-November-2004, 08:45 PM
Together with the problem of "Inappropriate touching/moves", I strongly believe we need to start taking a much firmer and more positive approach to stamp this stuff out of the MJ world, before it's too late!

Perhaps a "constructive suggestions" thread on the issues?

ChrisA
23rd-November-2004, 09:02 PM
Together with the problem of "Inappropriate touching/moves", I strongly believe we need to start taking a much firmer and more positive approach to stamp this stuff out of the MJ world, before it's too late!

Perhaps a "constructive suggestions" thread on the issues?
I couldn't agree more. It's a subject we've returned to again and again, though, even during the short year I've hung out here.

There are really only three things I can think of, and it boils down to the fact that it's invariably the girls that are the victims of both drop injuries and unwanted groping.


So to the girls, I'd say this:

1. Don't dance with them once you know what they do. Sounds obvious, but lots of ladies somehow seem to think that they're being bad by refusing to dance with these guys. :confused: :confused:

2. Complain to the offender. Loudly. Emphatically. Stomp off the dance floor. Whatever it takes, make it completely clear how much you object to what's just happened. Whatever else you do, do not tolerate it with that pained smile I see so often on nearby ladies' faces. The message does not come across to the insensitive git that's just hurt or molested you as the disapproval you intend.

3. Complain to the organiser. They need evidence to act, and so the more complaints they get about the (usually serial) offenders, the more easily they'll be able to act.


Chris

ChrisA
23rd-November-2004, 09:14 PM
and my partner yelled "Windmill" at me

Incidentally, I wonder if I might hazard a little suggestion.

The correct response to such a verbal lead/signal from a guy you do not know, and with whom you haven't discussed the meaning of such signals is:

"No"

There is no move in freestyle between partners that don't know one another's dancing very well indeed that should be led at all if it can't be led simply by leading properly.

Chris

Magic Hans
23rd-November-2004, 09:23 PM
Incidentally, I wonder if I might hazard a little suggestion.

The correct response to such a verbal lead/signal from a guy you do not know, and with whom you haven't discussed the meaning of such signals is:

"No"

There is no move in freestyle between partners that don't know one another's dancing very well indeed that should be led at all if it can't be led simply by leading properly.

Chris
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

It is, after all, a free world ... last time I looked!

Gus
24th-November-2004, 12:38 AM
Together with the problem of "Inappropriate touching/moves", I strongly believe we need to start taking a much firmer and more positive approach to stamp this stuff out of the MJ world, before it's too late!Funnily enough a certain gentleman will be reciveing a little email from me pointing out just such a "firmer approach". What is less funny is that a certain dance organistaion wont do anything about it! :mad:

Magic Hans
24th-November-2004, 06:34 PM
Funnily enough a certain gentleman will be reciveing a little email from me pointing out just such a "firmer approach". What is less funny is that a certain dance organistaion wont do anything about it! :mad:

Where at??? What venue?? Name it!! Name it!!

[composure regained!]

.... errrrr ..... ok .... carry on then!

:flower:

jivecat
24th-November-2004, 09:57 PM
.....it's invariably the girls that are the victims of both drop injuries and unwanted groping.


Not so, as regards the injuries, anyway. I'm sure there have been a number of mentions on the forum of guys wishing to protect themselves from jive-caused or aggravated injuries, especially to the shoulder, though not, admittedly, caused by drops. The blame is usually placed on yanking ladies.



So to the girls, I'd say this:

1. Don't dance with them once you know what they do. Sounds obvious, but lots of ladies somehow seem to think that they're being bad by refusing to dance with these guys. :confused: :confused:

You make things sound so black and white. But they're not. It might be reasonable to do as you say when the culprit is a dyed-in-the-wool, arrogant person who will not see what he is doing wrong and is not receptive to teaching. But things are not usually as simple as that. The guy who dropped me was an inexperienced dancer led to attempt drops with the implicit approval of teachers even though he had not mastered the basic technique of doing them safely. No harm done, on that occasion. He's a nice lad, enjoys his dancing and is steadily improving. I'm happy to take the risk of him dropping me again, though I'm much more vigilant when I dance with him now. I could argue that I was in some sense culpable because I didn't take the chance of correcting him and helping him at the time, because I find it difficult to know how and when to intervene tactfully. (Thanks, Trish, for practical advice given somewhere or other!) But to refuse to dance with him again? I think that would be insufferable behaviour on my part.
And what do I do if the guy who has put me at risk is someone who I usually enjoy dancing with? Congenial dance partners (for women) are not generally so plentiful that we can pick and choose the cream of the bunch.



2. Complain to the offender. Loudly. Emphatically. Stomp off the dance floor. Whatever it takes, make it completely clear how much you object to what's just happened. Whatever else you do, do not tolerate it with that pained smile I see so often on nearby ladies' faces. The message does not come across to the insensitive git that's just hurt or molested you as the disapproval you intend.

I agree that part of the problem is that women do not speak up clearly enough about what is acceptable for them on the dance floor. We all need to do this, though not necessarily in a hostile way, and we need to be backed up by clear and unequivocal support from the teacher during classes. Many men just don't realise that they may be causing a problem and would be mortified to learn that and should be given the chance to change. Also what one follower hates may have been perfectly acceptable to lots of others, as I've discovered when comparing notes with friends.



3. Complain to the organiser. They need evidence to act, and so the more complaints they get about the (usually serial) offenders, the more easily they'll be able to act.


Chris

Only when other avenues have been tried, surely.

ChrisA
25th-November-2004, 12:00 AM
I agree that part of the problem is that women do not speak up clearly enough about what is acceptable for them on the dance floor. We all need to do this, though not necessarily in a hostile way, and we need to be backed up by clear and unequivocal support from the teacher during classes. Many men just don't realise that they may be causing a problem and would be mortified to learn that and should be given the chance to change.
I agree with this, and all the rest of your post that I've snipped.

I'm just getting increasingly exasperated with the never-ending series of threads we get here about about how the ladies are constantly being tormented with drop-injuries, groping, stinking blokes and dripping bodies.

But we never, ever hear about how someone has tactfully had a word with the guy in question**, discovered his benign intent, and brought about his wonderful reform and conversion from ignorance to awareness.

Nor do we hear about the ones where their nastiness is exposed and they are rightly shunned as a consequence.

I might say that I have total sympathy with the ladies' plight - they have far less control over the content of a dance than guys do - and when I dance I pay a great deal of attention to making it as right as I can for them.

But I know that not all people are nice, and I've witnessed on many occasions the suffering of ladies that for whatever reason don't seem able to say "enough is enough".


Of course I'm not suggesting nasty, savage reactions at the first offence, especially when said offence is out of character. A gentle hint, for the nice guys, is all that will be needed.

And of course you're right - reacting to unnacceptable behaviour should be a sliding scale, appropriate to the scale of the offence.

When I talk in the black and white terms that I sometimes do, I'm talking about the cases that really are black and white. Where guys blatantly grope, force ladies painfully into drops despite requests not to do any drops, etc, etc.

In the greyer cases, obviously a more measured response is appropriate, and I've never denied that. :flower:

Chris

** except when I did it, funnily enough, as did our own Sheepie in different circumstances. I don't know of any other instances reported here.

Gadget
25th-November-2004, 12:12 AM
I'm just getting increasingly exasperated with the never-ending series of threads we get here about about how the ladies are constantly being tormented with drop-injuries, groping, stinking blokes and dripping bodies.
:rofl:
Have you not noticed yet - there are three types of thread: complaining, lovie and nitt-picking obssesion.
Occasionally you get a genuine "nice" one without the lovie-ism, but people like to moan; and this forum is more likley to have understanding ears than anywhere else. The issues raised are more to do with human nature and society than dancing - they involve too much effort, too draconian measures or too uncivilised actions for most people to resolve. If your ears are tired of listening to the tales of woe, perhaps you could offer a shoulder instead?

ChrisA
25th-November-2004, 12:18 AM
The issues raised are more to do with human nature and society than dancing - they involve too much effort, too draconian measures or too uncivilised actions for most people to resolve.

Yep, agree with that.

Except that often, the resolutions aren't as difficult as they seem. It just makes me sad that people seem to prefer to put up with all sorts of horrible situations (and moan about them :devil: ), rather than put even a little bit of effort into some actual solutions.

The actual solutions are there for the taking, and dancing would be a lot more fun for the vast majority of us if even a small proportion of them were put into practice.


If your ears are tired of listening to the tales of woe, perhaps you could offer a shoulder instead?

I do this too... but most effectively in person :innocent:

Chris

Sparkles
25th-November-2004, 12:18 AM
I think it's hard to say something to the guy you're dancing with, but I'm not sure why that should be so really.
I've had a word on a couple of occasions with guys dancing with other people near me that were likely to cause damage, and have refused my partner drops and aerials on safety grounds before, but to actually comment to my partner seems difficult for some reason. Maybe I feel some responsibility to be polite if they have asked me to dance (or some other such nonesense excuse). I don't quite know how to explain it.
It takes a lot of guts to say to someone 'I think what you're doing is wrong', and for some of us shy, sensitive little flowers :blush: (where's Daisy Chain when you need her?) it can be quite a daunting prospect to say something to a guy, and even more so if you believe them to be a 'better' dancer than yourself...
I agree that women should be more clear about what is and isn't acceptable, but it's one of those 'easier said than done' scenarios I'm afraid. :sad:
S. x

Gus
25th-November-2004, 12:23 AM
Curious ... who is teaching all these drops?

The main sources would seem to be;
Focused workshops (a la Peter Phillips)
Part of wider based workshop
Instructors teaching from stage
Something seen on a video
One of the punters showing another punter
I've always been against drops been taught in lessons if for no other reaons, no matter how well explained, Joe Public will find a way to do it wrong. Workshops are the best solution ... but given the amount of workshops (very few) and the amount of drop-monsters (very many) someone, somewhere must be teaching these people. So ... do you stop people been taught or do you try to educate them better?

Tiggerbabe
25th-November-2004, 12:42 AM
Not so, as regards the injuries, anyway....................................Also what one follower hates may have been perfectly acceptable to lots of others, as I've discovered when comparing notes with friends.
Totally agree here.......a very good male friend of mine injured his back on Saturday at the Beach Ballroom, trying to rescue his partner at the time, who decided to throw herself into a drop and yes, he does know that he should just have let her fall, but human nature meant he couldn't do that :tears:

It constantly amazes me that a lot of ladies are perfectly happy to go along with dips, drops etc when the floor is plainly far too busy for them. It also amazes me the reaction you get from some partners when you take evasive action and don't comply.

Lou
25th-November-2004, 02:43 PM
It just makes me sad that people seem to prefer to put up with all sorts of horrible situations (and moan about them :devil: ), rather than put even a little bit of effort into some actual solutions.

Ahhh... but, Chris - there are some people who post their experiences to share them, talk about the feelings involved, and build relationships with others who have experienced similar things. Sometimes, it's just good to find out that it's not just you who has the problem.

And, of course, there are also people who hear a problem & immediately jump in to fix it. :wink: I think it also has something to do with being able to read a map..... :whistle:

ChrisA
25th-November-2004, 02:56 PM
Ahhh... but, Chris - there are some people who post their experiences to share them, talk about the feelings involved, and build relationships with others who have experienced similar things. Sometimes, it's just good to find out that it's not just you who has the problem.

Yeah, I take your point. Gadget's comment stung hard enough for me not to be able to miss that :tears:



And, of course, there are also people who hear a problem & immediately jump in to fix it. :wink: I think it also has something to do with being able to read a map..... :whistle:
You'll be quoting "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" at me next :blush:

Please nooooooo :D

I accept that it's a bit bloky to want to fix it. And maybe that it's a bit girly to do nothing and just feeeeeeeeeeeel baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad :devil:

But isn't there a middle ground? Wouldn't you rather not have the problem in the first place? It's not like some things where there just isn't a solution. In this case, there is, and as well as sympathy surely it would be nice if the whole dance experience could be improved across the board.

Chris

ChrisA
25th-November-2004, 03:03 PM
surely it would be nice if the whole dance experience could be improved across the board.

On reflection, maybe I'm just completely barking to bang on about all this at all. I don't stink, yank, drip or perv (well, except when required to, in the latter case :devil: ), so maybe in campaigning like this I'm just shooting myself in the foot.

Yeah, guys... stink away.... then all the girls will wanna dance with meeeeeeeeee :waycool:

Chris :blush:

Lou
25th-November-2004, 03:05 PM
You'll be quoting "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" at me next :blush:
What do you mean, "next"?! :rofl: That was almost verbatim, I'll have you know! And ignore Gadget - he's only trying to fix things.... :wink:

ChrisA
25th-November-2004, 03:28 PM
What do you mean, "next"?! :rofl: That was almost verbatim, I'll have you know!

I knew that :tears: :rofl:



And ignore Gadget - he's only trying to fix things.... :wink:
Ooh... do tell me how - if you have a solution to that problem, that is :devil:

Chris

PS No probs Gadg. :flower:

Daisy Chain
25th-November-2004, 04:02 PM
I'I think what you're doing is wrong', and for some of us shy, sensitive little flowers :blush: (where's Daisy Chain when you need her?) it can be quite a daunting prospect to say something to a guy


:clap: Over here!

Actually, I don't have a problem letting men know that they've hurt me. The involuntary squeal usually gives them a clue. Fraid to say that I'm a bit of a squealer :eek:

Daisy

(A Vocal Little Flower)

jivecat
25th-November-2004, 08:33 PM
- reacting to unnacceptable behaviour should be a sliding scale, appropriate to the scale of the offence.



This is exactly what I wanted to say! Thanks for summing it up in one economical sentence rather than my pages of ramblings.

Gus
30th-November-2004, 12:11 PM
Some time ago we surmised that the only way to deal with drop-monsters was to slap them across the face with a wet haddock (forgotten the thread but it WAS funny at the time ... maybe you had to be there). Anyway .... I now realise I need such a weapon and I know who I need to use it on. Was teaching the beginners lesson last night when I a numpty sat out watching decide to 'teach' one the girls a new move he'd seen ... a ballroom drop. The fact that he would have been better off in the beginner's class learning to do his basics right was bad enough, what was worse was that he was doing this move between two sets of chairs and table where there was barely room to walk :tears: To say it was distracting is an understatement, I was waiting for her head to hit something and I nearly called him to stop from the stage but decided against it.

Later on words were had with him by the Venue Manager...but it still amazes me that supposedly intelligent people can this just because they've seen a drop a few times they can go and start teaching it to their mates ... especially the ballroom drop which I see as one of the potentially most dangerous common moves. Do people think that teachers just step off the floor and onto the stage with no training (OK ... some cowboys do). Teaching of drops is a serious business. I've been teaching for 5 years and there are still drops I don’t see myself as qualified to teach ... I leave them to the experts like Pete Phillips. Anyone had trouble with 'lay experts' like this?

MartinHarper
30th-November-2004, 12:39 PM
Actually, I don't have a problem letting men know that they've hurt me. The involuntary squeal usually gives them a clue.

Just as well that nobody ever squeals with delight then, because otherwise that could get confusing... :)

Zebra Woman
30th-November-2004, 01:00 PM
:clap: Over here!

Actually, I don't have a problem letting men know that they've hurt me. The involuntary squeal usually gives them a clue. Fraid to say that I'm a bit of a squealer :eek:

Daisy

(A Vocal Little Flower)

Over the years I have been working very hard on not squealing during star jumps ( the thumbs into my kidneys can really hurt, I don't like to be squeezed hard round the waist).

Anyway one time some macho guy put me into a star jump. I didn't squeal. He then picked me up and whizzed me round infront of him 360 degrees (a catherine wheel?) I still didn't squeal and was feeling quite proud. He then did ...I don't know what ...I thought I was going to die :eek: ...I really squealed. He was happy with that.

Since then I've gone back to squealing :sick:

ZW :(

Jayne
30th-November-2004, 01:39 PM
the thumbs into my kidneys can really hurt, I don't like to be squeezed hard round the waist
Ah, yes. The old kidney gougers. I rarely hesistate in telling them that they're hurting me these days. I might need my right kidney one day!! :what:

The other favourite is the inguinal lymph node gouger. I squirm out of their grip but rarely say anything. Do other people find that some dancers try to remove them for you?

J :tears:

(inguinal = relating to or affecting the region of the groin)

DianaS
30th-November-2004, 02:26 PM
Ah, yes. The old kidney gougers. I rarely hesistate in telling them that they're hurting me these days. I might need my right kidney one day!! :what:

The other favourite is the inguinal lymph node gouger. I squirm out of their grip but rarely say anything. Do other people find that some dancers try to remove them for you?

J :tears:

(inguinal = relating to or affecting the region of the groin)
Can't say I have but I have had people hold my hand so tightly it hurts...

Graham
30th-November-2004, 02:36 PM
The other favourite is the inguinal lymph node gouger. I squirm out of their grip but rarely say anything. Do other people find that some dancers try to remove them for you?
I'm having a little difficulty working out why their hands are in this region at all - are we talking lifts? :confused:

Jayne
30th-November-2004, 02:49 PM
I'm having a little difficulty working out why their hands are in this region at all - are we talking lifts? :confused:
Nope. I'm thinking of spins that are led from the lady's hips. I believe they should be led by using straight fingers - but some guys cup their fingers and gouge your nodes out. :sick:

J :nice:

Graham
30th-November-2004, 02:58 PM
Nope. I'm thinking of spins that are led from the lady's hips. I believe they should be led by using straight fingers - but some guys cup their fingers and gouge your nodes out. :sick:

J :nice:
Oh, right, gotcha. Perhaps teachers should include something on this in the class - "When I say take hold of the lady's pelvis, I mean the outside of the bone, not the inward-facing part" :sick:

jivecat
30th-November-2004, 03:07 PM
Just as well that nobody ever squeals with delight then, because otherwise that could get confusing... :)


Well, I think I sometimes gasp with delight. I'm almost sure it was on the dance floor. :whistle: Squeals usually mean pain or terror.

Divissima
30th-November-2004, 03:32 PM
Teaching of drops is a serious business. I've been teaching for 5 years and there are still drops I don’t see myself as qualified to teach ... I leave them to the experts like Pete Phillips. Anyone had trouble with 'lay experts' like this?Oh yeah, all the time. I have encountered many men who think they can teach you a drop, lift or (usually painful) complex move, normally during freestyle. I have to admit these days I normally say I don't do drops or lifts with people I don't know. I guess I have become more 'difficult' over the years out of self-preservation. As a general rule, I don't greatly appreciate being 'taught' moves by freestyle partners. If it's leadable, then they should lead it, if it isn't or they can't, then I'd rather they leave it alone and lead something else.

Feelingpink
2nd-December-2004, 12:19 PM
Well, I think I sometimes gasp with delight. I'm almost sure it was on the dance floor. :whistle: Squeals usually mean pain or terror.

RANT: After a whole weekend of Rock Bottoms with no problems whatsoever (and my attempt to dance with EVERY man there) I found my first freestyle at Hipsters involved one dancer trying to bruise or break both my wrists and a knee and lots of drops. I screeched loudly and he didn't take any notice. When someone else later tried holding my wrist overly firmly throughout a whole dance and I said at the end he was hurting me, he explained it was a swing hold. I was glad I was in a position to say that I'd done a number of swing classes and NONE of them had leads in it like that! (If I hadn't, it would have put me off swing for life). So I've tried the subtle approach (screech) and the calm, assertive approach ... and neither seemed to have any effect. Sigh. :sad: Where's that wet haddock? RANT OVER

Gus
2nd-December-2004, 12:57 PM
Sigh. :sad: Where's that wet haddock? You dont need a wet haddock .. you've got Nigel .... urrrr... that didnt come out right :sick: I'm NOT implying that Nigel is a moist piscine, rather that if you informed him of these miscreants I'm sure he would find a way (subtle or otherwise) to rectify their bad habits. If the organisers dont know, they cant do anything about it.

Feelingpink
2nd-December-2004, 01:17 PM
You dont need a wet haddock .. you've got Nigel... If the organisers dont know, they cant do anything about it.

Ta. Next time I have the "joy" of dancing with this chap, I'll find someone. What do you do in your venue/s if you get a complaint like this?

Debster
2nd-December-2004, 01:29 PM
As a general rule, I don't greatly appreciate being 'taught' moves by freestyle partners. If it's leadable, then they should lead it, if it isn't or they can't, then I'd rather they leave it alone and lead something else.

:yeah: :clap:
Go Div!

Gus
2nd-December-2004, 01:35 PM
Ta. Next time I have the "joy" of dancing with this chap, I'll find someone. What do you do in your venue/s if you get a complaint like this?Me?? I'm a total coward ... I send my Venue Manager in ... NO ONE argues with our Sheena :waycool: Actualy, only had a couple of such incidents in tha last year ... I have a quiet friendly word wityh those concerned and so far people have listened to what I've said (and in one case not come back again :what: )

MartinHarper
2nd-December-2004, 02:39 PM
When someone else later tried holding my wrist overly firmly throughout a whole dance and I said at the end he was hurting me, he explained it was a swing hold. [etc]

Personally, I confess I do tend to have a quite defensive knee-jerk reaction to this sort of feedback, especially when it appears to conflict with something I've been (mis)taught elsewhere, or something someone else has recommended. It's only when I reflect later, after the heat of the moment, that I can really take on board what was said, and try to make sense of it in the context of other things I've learnt.

Please don't give up on your calm assertive approach, just because the immediate reaction isn't very encouraging. I'd bet that you had more effect than you realise.

bigdjiver
2nd-December-2004, 04:42 PM
One thing I would like to add to this thread - If you do get injured please do let the injury heal properly before returning to MJ. I have seen two ladies suffer because they returned too early. :tears:

(I probably would not follow my own advice.)