Ceroc or not [Archive] - Ceroc Scotland Forum

Lounge Lizard

8th-November-2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Franck
Of course it's fine LL :nice:

From my perspective (admittedly biased) I think that Ceroc is best! :D

The strength and standards provided by a larger organization that cares about quality of teaching and bringing in new members and focusing on all dancers, ie not just the 'elite hotshots', but beginners, intermediate and in the last couple of years, on the more advanced needs too, makes a huge difference.
Of course, there are great independents out there, and there are some poor Ceroc teachers / franchisees, but as a large organization, Ceroc can root out, or re-train those who fall below par, what can you do with the really bad independents out there who either put off many potential dancers, or turn out dancers that at best can't dance, and at worse are dangerous (aerials anyone?).

One of the defining factors is that most of the successful independents (and budding organizations) were once trained by Ceroc.
The training is the key, not just on how to dance and how to teach, but crucially, on how to encourage everyone to improve.

Ceroc training is the best and is constantly improving, and judging by the last few meetings of Ceroc franchisees since Mike Ellard took over the reins, the future is very promising! :waycool:

Franck. I agree Ceroc is the best for teaching and getting 'bums on seats'.
but
I teach at Camber approx 900 in the class, I DJ at Camber, Hipsters, MJC, RB, BB, Blacpool champs etc. etc. yet I cannot (officialy) DJ or Teach for ceroc as a freelance.
The only freelance teachers used by Ceroc seem to be the elite few
I have contated central office a number of times with regard to working for Ceroc and may get a reply one day.

Is Ceroc to blinkered, do events/venues like Camber or Hipsters prosper because Ceroc is failing the top end of the dance market.

I am a member of the Leroc federation and boy do they need a wake up call, but because it does not have the ceroc control their meandering continues.
So I see both sides, I dont like the bully tactics Ceroc (and others) seem to adopt, I am sure others experience this approach.
peter

Franck

8th-November-2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Is Ceroc to blinkered, do events/venues like Camber or Hipsters prosper because Ceroc is failing the top end of the dance market.Ceroc is not failing the top end of the market, Ceroc more or less created a market at the top end, and while this accusation might have been true 2/3 years ago, it certainly isn't today. A lot has been done already, with top events, workshops, the Jivemasters etc... and more is planned. The blinkers are off and soon, everyone will benefit.

Watch this space :D

Franck.

Gus

8th-November-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Hipsters could not exist without Ceroc.

One might argue that Ceroc could not exist with Hipsters:wink: To explain myself (if I can) Ceroc has always been focused as a business proposition around dancer with 0 to 2 years experience. The formula of teaching is also based round that. What I've seen time and time again is that dancers hit the ceiling of what Ceroc can offer then go off to do Lindy or Salsa or simply give up. The advent of the new breed of 'advanced' teachers and more sophisticated venues is a symbiotic relationship.

I don’t think that Ceroc should try to cater for this top end of the market ... its what its built up for and, being brutally frank (no pun), its teachers aren’t trained to be able to cope. I hope I'm not insulting the CTA graduates (I'm one myself) when I say that the majority would possibly struggle to teach at the advanced level in the way that Nigel, Viktor and Amir do. And YES ... I know there are Ceroc teachers who are near the A list standard. .. but I would submit that they are exception rather than the rule.

As a counter pint ... if you look at any other provider of dance tuition ... I would say with the exception of Hipsters, overall Ceroc tends to win hands down .... but that is speaking with total ignorance of the very strong LeRoc and MoJive presence down South so I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Personal view entirely.

ChrisA

8th-November-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
What is best Ceroc or independents

I've heard it suggested that Ceroc caters for the majority who just want to dance a bit, chat with friends, learn a couple of moves and nothing more.

But I think that assumption needs challenging...

... for example, I've spoken to many Cerocers over the years who express frustration at the way they learn all these moves but can't remember any of them. Many lady Cerocers express frustration that they do all these moves in the class, but then no one ever dances them.

... it is the Ceroc venues that have the more challenging classes that seem to be the busiest. It might be argued that it's because it attracts the better dancers - but (a) many of the very good dancers don't go to the classes, and (b) how did the better dancers get that way? Not by only learning easy moves, I bet.

I used to taxi at Chiswick, a short-lived Ceroc venue. The teaching was Ok, great location, nice floor, but it never took off. And the one thing that I noticed about it was that the intermediate class was always only a tiny bit harder than the beginners class.

This was always justified by the desire to keep people, that if it was too hard they'd leave. On the contrary, I say: not hard enough, no challenge, no attracting good dancers, and in particular, nothing there for the beginners / early intermediates to aspire to. Freestyle was always dreadful, nothing eye-catching, nothing inspiring.

So people went elsewhere, and the venue closed.

It would cost very little in Ceroc classes to teach a little more about lead and follow, musicality, to structure the intermediate routine to contain at least one reasonably difficult move that illustrates something of these. A little exercise, for example, to establish resistance in the arms every couple of beginners classes, or an encouragement to listen for the breaks in the intermediates - maybe incorporated into the routine.

These things wouldn't have an immediate effect, but much could be transformed over time.

Chris

Gus

8th-November-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

So I see both sides, I dont like the bully tactics Ceroc (and others) seem to adopt, I am sure others experience this approach.
peter

Sorry LL but I have to take exception to the 'bully boy' tactics comment. I agree that Ceroc are very selective about their teacher profile (25-28, good looking, slim build, ladies preferably shapely) but its a commondity production line that works. I can also understand why Ceroc is keen to keep to its own teachers .. and restrict their teachers teaching elsewhere ... thats just good business sense.

've come across more dubious practies by non-Cefoc organisations than by Ceroc ... so I think you may be being unfair. At the end of the day ... I've not come across Ceroc deliberately trying to close another down ... OK .. they occaisonaly ban instructors from competing clubs but I think that isdecreasing ... I only know of one other Blitz instructor who has been banned ... and my banning was only based on a personal rift rather than a 'Ceroc' directive.

Franck

8th-November-2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Gus
To explain myself (if I can) Ceroc has always been focused as a business proposition around dancer with 0 to 2 years experience. The formula of teaching is also based round that. As I mentioned already, this is true, but only up to a point. Most people take around 2 years to become very good dancers (some take a lot less, and many give up before that for other reasons as we don't force people to keep learning :nice: )
With the overall success of Ceroc and other organizations, the market has grown to the point where there are now enough very good dancers to start a class catering for them mostly (at least in London, and soon the rest of the UK).
Only now is it realistic for Ceroc to consider providing more challenging classes / workshops / events... 2/3 years ago, only half a dozen people would have turned up.

I don’t think that Ceroc should try to cater for this top end of the market ... its what its built up for and, being brutally frank (no pun), its teachers aren’t trained to be able to cope. I hope I'm not insulting the CTA graduates (I'm one myself) when I say that the majority would possibly struggle to teach at the advanced level in the way that Nigel, Viktor and Amir do. And YES ... I know there are Ceroc teachers who are near the A list standard. .. but I would submit that they are exception rather than the rule.I disagree, there are many incredible dancers and brilliant teachers in the C.T.A. all they need is the framework and extra training to develop in what I believe will put the current 'stars' to shame... This might be controversial, but most of the 'hotshot' teachers out there are still making it up as they go along, providing brilliant classes / concepts but also poor ones as they experiment. I believe that with training, support and the right infrastructure / framework, Ceroc could become the top all round provider from Beginners to Advanced and beyond!

Franck.

Franck

8th-November-2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by ChrisA
I used to taxi at Chiswick, a short-lived Ceroc venue. The teaching was Ok, great location, nice floor, but it never took off. And the one thing that I noticed about it was that the intermediate class was always only a tiny bit harder than the beginners class.

This was always justified by the desire to keep people, that if it was too hard they'd leave. On the contrary, I say: not hard enough, no challenge, no attracting good dancers, and in particular, nothing there for the beginners / early intermediates to aspire to. Freestyle was always dreadful, nothing eye-catching, nothing inspiring.

So people went elsewhere, and the venue closed. One thing I have learnt over the last 11 years of running Ceroc nights and teaching at them, is that the success or failure of a night is never down to one factor only.
It might be that the Intermediate classes weren't challenging enough for you or some of the people you spoke to, but there were no doubt many reasons why in the end the night closed...
Conversely, there are many 'Beginners' nights that cater to Beginners and have a very basic Intermediate class, who thrive and do better than most...

I make no apologies for serving Beginners first, the way I see it, and this was discussed in the Hotshots thread, without a clear focus on Beginners most of us wouldn't be dancing today!
Typically, anyone who becomes more proficient, then forgets how and why they got hooked in the first place, and suddenly want to change the very classes that got them where they are, without realising that those changes might put off the Beginners.

It would cost very little in Ceroc classes to teach a little more about lead and follow, musicality, to structure the intermediate routine to contain at least one reasonably difficult move that illustrates something of these. This I totally agree with, and the current Teacher training already reflects that, more is being done in the background on that subject and while the Ceroc formula is (in my opinion) the best, a lot can be changed, and will be.

Franck.

Gus

8th-November-2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Franck
I disagree, there are many incredible dancers and brilliant teachers in the C.T.A. all they need is the framework and extra training to develop in what I believe will put the current 'stars' to shame...
Franck.

Ahhhh ... well I remain to be convinced. I'm not alone in thinking that the teaching and dancing ability of CTA graduates has declined over the last few years as Ceroc has pushed for 'Image' over form. If what you say is true ... then over the next year or so there should be real battle between the upcoming Ceroc 'Advanced' teachers and the existing A list. This may make some teachers uncomfortable but it can only be a GOOD THING for Modern Jive dancing as a whole ..... let the competition commence:grin:

Neil

8th-November-2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
What do you think about organisers who do not teach or bring in new dancers but put dances on to cash in (my personal hate)I don't really see what the problem is with this, LL. Here in Nottingham, for instance, the market for teaching modern jive is dominated 100% by Ceroc. They put on a freestyle dance around once a month, which is all well and good. However, that leaves three weekends a month when there's no jive event on here (no problem for devotees like me and DavidY who will happily drive to Leicester, Birmingham, Scotland etc. for a dance - but the average punter at Ceroc isn't interested in doing that, and in fact will think you're a bit barmy if you tell them about it :eek: ). This gap in the market is partly filled by a guy who organises his own freestyle dances, again about once a month. One interpretation might be that he's "cashing in", another that he's merely providing a service to his fellow dancers. Either way, I'm glad he does it, coz it saves on petrol :)

:cheers:

Neil

Lounge Lizard

8th-November-2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Neil
I don't really see what the problem is with this, LL. Here in Nottingham, for instance, the market for teaching modern jive is dominated 100% by Ceroc. They put on a freestyle dance around once a month, which is all well and good. However, that leaves three weekends a month when there's no jive event on here (no problem for devotees like me and DavidY who will happily drive to Leicester, Birmingham, Scotland etc. for a dance - but the average punter at Ceroc isn't interested in doing that, and in fact will think you're a bit barmy if you tell them about it :eek: ). This gap in the market is partly filled by a guy who organises his own freestyle dances, again about once a month. One interpretation might be that he's "cashing in", another that he's merely providing a service to his fellow dancers. Either way, I'm glad he does it, coz it saves on petrol :)

:cheers:

Neil point taken
we have at least one dance every week - often two or three, and still get non teachers putting on dances to IMHO cash in on others hard work
p

Neil

8th-November-2003, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
we have at least one dance every week - often two or three, and still get non teachers putting on dances to IMHO cash in on others hard work Yeah, from what I've read on this forum the situation in your neck of the woods is pretty crazy as regards competition. I agree that if you had a non-teaching organiser putting on dances that clashed with those of a teaching organisation, that would be a different matter altogether.

Neil

Jon L

8th-November-2003, 04:51 PM

I learnt my jive in a ceroc venue for 2 years, going through beginners and intermediate. I did wonder why when looking at the map of venues they never had any venues south of Horsham. It wasn't until I went to the Rebel Yell and Bognor that I understood why. This where I started meeting people like Nigel, Nina, Mr. Lizard and rediscovered Viktor and Lydia who were ceroc teachers.

Now ceroc is undoubtably good for beginners, why?? because the training for a teacher is quite rigid. Someone I know who has just passed her teaching exam, showed me her manual. They have to recite word for word what is on the page. So when you go to a ceroc venue anywhere as a newcomer you will get the routine as standard.

The good independents, are better when you have been going a while and want to do stuff that is more taxing. The independents perhaps could do with some agreement where they all acknowledge each other, as there are some pants teachers around as well.

I do think that not allowing ceroc teachers to do Bognor and Camber is a mistake in my opinion,

I have heard it said that ceroc is targeting the 20-30 market, if this is true then this needs a rethink, as the music will deter the seasoned jiver!

The independant jive teachers have better music in my opinion, that is why I like the older stuff played by Mr. Lizard, John Miller (Jag Jive), John Brett etc. etc. They player a much wider range. :nice:

Where I live I am spoilt for choice I have ceroc surrey, leroc Dorking, Rebel Roc and Jive Bug all within easy travelling distance, and within an hour I have the South Coast (jules Jive Hove, love to dancei in Portsmouth ) and Hipsters. All of them are pretty good. Then on some Saturdays I have Jag Jive which is a lovely atmosphere (no cliques and good music ) and is so close to my home I could walk there.

:nice: :nice:

ChrisA

8th-November-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Franck
without a clear focus on Beginners most of us wouldn't be dancing today!

I think it's a big mistake to have any single "clear focus".

To use a working life analogy, no one would dispute the importance of recruitment - but a career path rapidly takes over as a priority for people once recruited.

I can only speak for myself, but it is likely, for example, that having been reintroduced to dancing via Ceroc after many years off the floor, I would have given up again about 18 months ago, if I hadn't found Hipsters (god, that sounds like a religious conversion, doesn't it - sorry :what: )

As you say, a successful or unsuccessful venue isn't made so by a single factor - it's the overall shape of the night - the music, the teaching, the people, the presence or absence of sources of inspiration...

... but do I think you might underestimate how big a difference a single factor can sometimes make - and sometimes the management isn't in the best place to get the unadulterated feedback. Another Ceroc venue I know very well was going nowhere, and then the teacher changed. Almost overnight, it started getting much better, more good dancers started coming, irregulars got more regular. This was so down to that single factor, I promise you. People said things to me as 'one of them' that they would never have said to either the teacher or the venue manager.

Typically, anyone who becomes more proficient, then forgets how and why they got hooked in the first place, and suddenly want to change the very classes that got them where they are, without realising that those changes might put off the Beginners.

Agreed. I am certainly not suggesting a radical change to the format of the classes. But a little salt with chips, maybe a drop of vinegar too, makes a colossal difference :)

Chris

bigdjiver

8th-November-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Jon L
I learnt my jive in a ceroc venue for 2 years, going through beginners and intermediate. I did wonder why when looking at the map of venues they never had any venues south of Horsham. It wasn't until I went to the Rebel Yell and Bognor that I understood why. This where I started meeting people like Nigel, Nina, Mr. Lizard and rediscovered Viktor and Lydia who were ceroc teachers.

With all due respect, you do not understand why. There was a at least one Ceroc franchise "South of Horsham" and the franchisee decided to go it alone.

I started meeting people like Nigel and Nina and John Brett in Bedford. They get around. Their enormous fan base, built over years, is one reason why Hipsters could succeed so quickly.

bigdjiver

8th-November-2003, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by ChrisA
I think it's a big mistake to have any single "clear focus".

In business it is essential. It is also essential to learn and adapt.

Ceroc was conceived as "the MacDonalds of dance". The same product across the country. However disdainfully that concept is regarded it works as a business. The consequences of changing that concept could have killed the business long ago.

Cater for the advanced dancer? Open a Ceroc Hipsters a few years back?

People go to Ceroc to learn, to meet people, to dance, and to watch the best. If the best are creamed off then other venues suffer the loss of the elite to learn from, and to watch and admire. If Ceroc had done it with a Ceroc Hipsters then the other franchisees would have suffered, as they are suffering now, but they would have blamed Ceroc management, and been more likely to go their own way.

Ceroc is adapting. Changes are in the pipeline to stay focused, but focused on the situation as it is now. There are smart people running it, and always have been. It has not got here by chance.

Interesting times.

Franck

8th-November-2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by ChrisA
I think it's a big mistake to have any single "clear focus".
I never said 'single' I said without a clear focus on Beginners :nice:
Of course Ceroc focus on many other things. One of them is quality and consistency of teachers and of the night itself.

Many venues have tried to attract the more 'advanced' dancers, but usually, the clear focus is on some sort of elitist approach, ie, "I want my dance venue to have the dancers I want to dance with, not the new dancers, not the bad dancers, not ..."

The problem with venues like Hipsters, is that while they do attract some of the best dancers (and those that think they are, they do not cater for the needs of Beginners, and for every successful new person introduced by a member of the in-crowd, there will be dozens of new people visiting who get turned down, and crucially, will not learn anything (at least nothing they're prepared to hear).
While all this is happening, some of the better dancers and inspirational examples that used to go to the other nights, are not there anymore and, as you say, another venue closes... :sad:
So in the end, who will cater for the Beginners?

... but do I think you might underestimate how big a difference a single factor can sometimes make - and sometimes the management isn't in the best place to get the unadulterated feedback. I wouldn't do that, but the example you quote, where the teacher was changed, is more than one factor... Often, if a teacher is changed, it means that a problem had been identified, and that venue wasn't successful, so as well as bringing a new teacher, maybe more training was given to taxi-dancers, more busking took place, more promotion, etc... :nice:

As for feedback, anyone not willing to listen won't hear, but I'd like to think that over the last couple years since the Forum started, it has provided a way to receive feedback for myself, but all promoters and organizers... Some useful, some not... ultimately, each of us has to live with the commercial decisions we take :D

Franck.

Jon

8th-November-2003, 06:08 PM

In my opinion what makes people come back to a venue is the teacher. Unfortunatley alot of ceroc teachers do it by the book which while good for the beginners who travel around is bad for the rest of us.

Now when I say by the book I mean just teach the moves. What makes people come back to a venue is if the teacher makes a friendly fun atmosphere. Now the moves taught could be fairly simple but if taught in a fun way prehaps even in a way not usually taught then people will come back because its different than theyre used to.

If you look around alot of London and Kent venues then quite alot of the teachers dont even smile on the stage. Yet you look at teachers like Nigel, Victor, Kelly, Cliff etc who just seem to get the classes undivided attention and fill the room wih fun and get the class to relax, enjoy themselves and most importantly smiling & laughing.

As for Advanced classes, yes these are useful and I believe ceroc are looking into adding advanced moves into classes. But whats the old saying something like "a beginner wants to learn advanced moves but an advanced dancer whats to learn beginner moves".

ChrisA

8th-November-2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Franck
I never said 'single' I said without a clear focus on Beginners :nice:

Beg pardon :)

Many venues have tried to attract the more 'advanced' dancers, but usually, the clear focus is on some sort of elitist approach, ie, "I want my dance venue to have the dancers I want to dance with, not the new dancers, not the bad dancers, not ..."

I trust you know me well enough now to be confident I would never support such a focus :)

The problem with venues like Hipsters, is that while they do attract some of the best dancers ... they do not cater for the needs of Beginners,

This is not a problem !! There are lots of Ceroc venues around that do this. And Hipsters on Wednesdays does have a beginners class, and a very good one too.

And guess who are the 'taxi dancers' (no shirt...) on a Wednesday??? No less than Nigel and Jules.

If that's not the very opposite of elitist, heaven knows what is.

and for every successful new person introduced by a member of the in-crowd, there will be dozens of new people visiting who get turned down, and crucially, will not learn anything (at least nothing they're prepared to hear).

The Tuesday/Wednesday split gets over this problem very successfully, I'd say. Occasionally we get a new beginner (invariably girls, strangely) turning up on a Tuesday that is out of their depth, but it's rare. And some nice folk do tend to put in an effort to make sure they don't have a terrible time.

While all this is happening, some of the better dancers and inspirational examples that used to go to the other nights, are not there anymore and, as you say, another venue closes... :sad:
So in the end, who will cater for the Beginners?

Not in my experience. Many of them go to the other places too.

I wouldn't do that, but the example you quote, where the teacher was changed, is more than one factor... Often, if a teacher is changed, it means that a problem had been identified, and that venue wasn't successful, so as well as bringing a new teacher, maybe more training was given to taxi-dancers, more busking took place, more promotion, etc... :nice:

Not in this case. Honest !!!! It had all been tried, but the effects of the busks, the 'bring one, get in free', the 'fun' classes, the promotion was exceptionally mediocre. Then the teacher changed, and the classes were fab, fun, focused, with a great teacher/demonstrator dynamic that turned it all around. It breathed a new lease of life in, and everyone's enthusiasm went up by leaps and bounds.

As for feedback, anyone not willing to listen won't hear, but I'd like to think that over the last couple years since the Forum started, it has provided a way to receive feedback for myself,
Absolutely. I'm not suggesting anyone is failing to listen to feedback - just that they sometimes fail to be in a position to hear it - and for no other reason than that they are "the management". Let's face it - all managers like to believe that they have the finger on the pulse. But it ain't possible all the time :D :waycool: :really:

ultimately, each of us has to live with the commercial decisions we take
And respect to you for putting in all the effort you do.

Chris :cheers: :cheers:

Chris

8th-November-2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by ChrisA
It would cost very little in Ceroc classes to teach a little more about lead and follow, musicality, to structure the intermediate routine to contain at least one reasonably difficult move that illustrates something of these. A little exercise, for example, to establish resistance in the arms every couple of beginners classes, or an encouragement to listen for the breaks in the intermediates - maybe incorporated into the routine.

I agree (and go even further - I think there's little point in teaching a move unless the corresponding dance principles are taught simultaneously), but IMO this is going towards the New Zealand model, which is very hard to bring in here where the existing system is very established.

I think Franck has made big strides for Ceroc by example in Scotland, working within the existing system and also expanding it, bringing in the occasional top dance teachers (like David and Lily) and increasing tolerance and openness with other groups.

I think all the jive organisations, by existing, help each other - they cater for different aspects of the market at different times and so keep people interested. Mike Ellard, from what he has said, has as much salsa background as he does (very extensive) Ceroc background, and has probably learnt a lot of dance on the way (as opposed to moves for one type of dance), so I think the future should be bright all round!

These things wouldn't have an immediate effect, but much could be transformed over time.

Hear hear!
:cheers:

Jon L

8th-November-2003, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
With all due respect, you do not understand why. There was a at least one Ceroc franchise "South of Horsham" and the franchisee decided to go it alone.

Thanks for the info and the history which you are right I was not aware of

What I meant by the previous quote. was that I honestly didn't know until I went to Bognor and Camber that the other 'dance' organisations were in existence, because ceroc certainly in the South tends not to promote them - Sorry for the confusion :sorry

Lounge Lizard

8th-November-2003, 11:04 PM

Ceroc has a number of venues in our area with a variety of organisers.
we seem to be taking this debate to the advanced level - why
Where in the rule book (of life not Ceroc) does it say that people can only learn to dance to 'safe' pop or dance music with a token of swing
nip down to your local Salsa club and you will see beginners dancing to music that many ceroc or MJ intermediate dancers are lost on.

Beginners - intermediates and advanced dancers can all dance to 'Soft-Swing music.
Why doesn't a ceroc venue try dedicating one night a week to (predominantly) this music style - aka Hipsters mix (but not lindy speed)
I know beginners can dance to and enjoy this music cos at Hastings they get lots of it
sorry Franck but I think the blinkers are on (down here at least) and ceroc will not stray this far from the standard package.

However I know ceroc Metro has JB (he was sooo good on Friday) and therefore, I guess, will have his mix of music for their classes

JamesGeary

9th-November-2003, 02:33 AM

The advantage of all uk ceroc is that people from anywhere all dance the same way, the same moves. It makes it easy for anyone from anywhere to dance with anyone from anywhere. Handy.

It's factory teaching, where all teachers are trained the same, and end up all dancing the same style and teaching the same way. It's a little dull after a while because you've seen one, you've seen them all. (except Marc, who did ceroc teacher training but managed to keep an interesting style)

Salsa is of course is totally independent operators. You could have been dancing one style for a year and then go to another club in the same city, and be unable to dance with almost anyone. There are even totally different timings that get used.

Ceroc NZ (where I did my teacher training) or Salsa there is no standardised footwork or way of doing everything, which means you get far more interesting variety. It's lots of amusement, just discovering new styles and techniques that others use.

In salsa, where its all independents you don't get a lower standard of class, actually you seem to get a higher standard because it's more competitive, because students often have a choice of between stacks of quite different classes on any given night. Standard being based on where people go, rather than someone's arbitrary definition of what is best (which is what most of these posts are about).

Where there are independents you seem to get more classes and smaller classes. Safety doesn't seem to become an issue in these situations because of the personal level of supervision (I'm getting that in before Gus).

bigdjiver

9th-November-2003, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Ceroc has a number of venues in our area with a variety of organisers.
we seem to be taking this debate to the advanced level - why
Where in the rule book (of life not Ceroc) does it say that people can only learn to dance to 'safe' pop or dance music with a token of swing
nip down to your local Salsa club and you will see beginners dancing to music that many ceroc or MJ intermediate dancers are lost on.

Beginners - intermediates and advanced dancers can all dance to 'Soft-Swing music.
Why doesn't a ceroc venue try dedicating one night a week to (predominantly) this music style - aka Hipsters mix (but not lindy speed)
I know beginners can dance to and enjoy this music cos at Hastings they get lots of it

Ceroc is a dance class organisation. It is focused on teaching as many people as possible to enjoy dancing. Teaching is done by teachers and taxi dancers. While the taxi dancers are on duty the idea in many venues is to keep the music simple so that as many people as possible have the maximum chance to learn. Simple, slower music gives all dancers the opportunity to practice new moves. When the taxi dancers go off duty the DJ is free to set the level of the tracks to suit the venue.
I think Salsa caters for a more naturally talented and dedicated, therefore smaller, set of dancers. You do not see the beginners that have given up dancing at all. Ceroc has retained those dancers where Salsa has not.

Andy McGregor

9th-November-2003, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by Franck
and judging by the last few meetings of Ceroc franchisees since Mike Ellard took over the reins, the future is very promising! :waycool:

Franck.

Originally posted by Franck
Watch this space :D

Franck.

Very enigmatic.

So, something is going to change and you can't tell us what it is.

Can you tell us when you will be able to tell us?:confused: :devil:

CEROC vs THE REST - A COMPARISON

On the subject of Ceroc vs the rest I can comment as someone who goes to many different venues, doesn't teach and always does the lesson, even the beginners if I'm there on time. I don't particularly like Ceroc classes because the girls often have that bouncy hand, skippy feet and a perpetual body bounce thing which makes leading them into anything other than basic moves quite difficult, especially if they don't look you in the eye, which they often don't - also, they can have the demeanour of someone who is certain they're good - is this the Ceroc Snob I've heard about. The other thing about Ceroc venues is that they have a higher proportion of beginners and early intermediates, which is good, but also means that they don't retain good people or a higher proportion don't go on to become good dancers. And more than half of the Ceroc venues in my area STILL ALLOW SMOKING - in fact, all of the smoking classes I know are Ceroc venues - only one of the independents, Jeff Jasper of Dance Party, allows smoking at his dance venues and I recommend you stay away from him as he told me to 'go f**k yourself' when I brought up the smoking subeject. Having said all of that, I probably go to a Ceroc venue 3 to 5 times a month out of the 15 nights I'll go dancing. When considering the independents I've been to some are far, far better (IMHO) than any Ceroc class, but many/most are much worse with inept teaching of, possibly dangerous, moves, poor music, poorly played and no good dancers whatsoever. However, the view I'm expressing below is an attempt at being objective in my comparison.

Ceroc Teaching

Every Ceroc teacher I've ever known is working from the same script, I've heard it so much now I know the lines, 'IT'S (shouted) five and six' etc. There's even a Ceroc exaggerated intake of breath between naming moves when going through the whole routine:wink: . I think this is great, there's a load of research being done to find out what works and then everyone goes the same proven, tested way. You get tested methods and you get a consistent product. This is a fast-food approach and all the better for it. It would be a foolish teacher that introduced something new into Ceroc without getting it tested and approved. To introduce something new without approval would be like a McDonalds chef deciding that people would like Branston Pickle in their Big Mac and going ahead and putting it in! Maybe it's better but it needs to be tested and it needs to be everyone doing it.

One great thing about being big is that Ceroc can capitalise on any new idea. If someone, be it an independent or a Ceroc franchisee, comes up with something that works better than the Ceroc formula there's nothing to stop Ceroc working out what's so good about it, polishing it up and refining it then rolling it out across the country. How many one-off independents have the skills or resources to do that? But they can copy it once Ceroc have gone public, like they did with consolidation lessons a few years ago.

The great advantage Ceroc has is that they can remove or retrain any poor teachers, unlike the independents.

Independents

For a start, these guys wouldn't be there if it wasn't for James Cronin starting Ceroc way back in the mists of time. That's the history lesson over. Now to the current products on offer. Independents can offer different variations of product - but they're all based on the orginal Ceroc framework, couples in lines, teacher at the front, spares moving on, same moves, etc. What the independents can do that Ceroc can't is offer a product to different market segments. They can have a class that's just for advanced dancers, dancers that like bands, that prefer swing/soul/R&B/rubbish pop music, that are older, that want to learn at a slower/faster pace, etc. In fact, anything that you can think of. As I said earlier, the problem with one-off independents is that often the teacher is self-selected and, as such, will be of variable quality. Some of the teachers I've seen have got no idea about something as simple as the bar structure of music - sometimes they, seemingly unknowing, change the routine or it's timing half-way through the lesson!

Dining on Dancing

To take the restaurant analogy further, Ceroc is the McDonalds product, it's the market leader, it's consistent, popular and just about everywhere. You know what to expect when you go in the door. There's other people offering similar products. These are Blitz, Mojive, etc who are the equivalent of Burger King, Wendy, Wimpy, etc. Not that different and maybe just nearer to home - although some people might prefer a flame-grilled Octopus! Then there are the other independents like Hipsters who offer a more extensive menu with more talented chefs - the haute cuisine end of the market. And, of course you have classes at the other end of the market that could be compared to a greasy Joe's cafe - those that have teachers who aren't very good dancers or teach sleazy moves for example:devil:

Please note, in making the restaurant analogy I've not said that one type is any better or worse than any other, just different. I've eaten in all types of establishment on occasion and had an enjoyable meal in every one.

And, now I think about it, isn't the way people move on is rather like one of those conveyor belts in a Sushi bar?

The Future

Until the enigmatic Franck tell us about the 'Great Plans' for Ceroc we don't know what they are. What we can be sure of is that they will be forward looking and progressive.

What we desperately need in the independent sector is a national organisation like there is for ballroom, ballet, tap, jazz, etc. This could accredit teachers so we know what to expect when we attend a class. I know we have the LeRoc Federation but as LL says, they need shaking up a bit. For a start, if people were more aware of teacher qualifications it would give us punters a better chance of making an informed choice when choosing which class to attend. Getting people to agree to accredit their teachers will not be easy when members of the organisation that does the accreditation runs classes in competition with the people they are being asked to examine.

p.s. I've just got back from Mr Sheepman's silver wedding anniversary dance in Bisley and it's 3.41am, I've got to get up at 830 am to be Deputy Mayor at the remembrance day services - my eyes will be so red and sore. Anyway, what a fine affair Wendy and Sheepys party was. Every single woman I danced with was fantastic - and so was a dance I had with David B! And I've learnt how to be Lily - if I'd known it was that easy I'd have become her ages ago. Thank you Sheepy and Wendy for a great night.:hug: :cheers:

Andy McGregor

9th-November-2003, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
With all due respect, you do not understand why. There was a at least one Ceroc franchise "South of Horsham" and the franchisee decided to go it alone.

That must have been many years ago. I've been dancing 'South of Horsham' for almost 7 years and until 4 weeks ago hadn't seen Ceroc anywhere nearby.

Andy McGregor

9th-November-2003, 05:12 AM

Lounge Lizard

9th-November-2003, 11:39 AM

nice one andy
but

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

CEROC vs THE REST - A COMPARISON
The other thing about Ceroc venues is that they have a higher proportion of beginners and early intermediates, which is good, but also means that they don't retain good people or a higher proportion don't go on to become good dancers.

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
and more than half of the Ceroc venues in my area STILL ALLOW SMOKING - in fact, all of the smoking classes I know are Ceroc venues
we have a thread for this I know it is relevant but lets keep it to Ceroc/Leroc dance:cheers:

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

- only one of the independents, Jeff Jasper of Dance Party, allows smoking at his dance venues and I recommend you stay away from him as he told me to 'go f**k yourself' when I brought up the smoking subeject.
I know he p###d you off but you do mention it an awful lot :wink:

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

Ceroc Teaching

Every Ceroc teacher I've ever known is working from the same script,
One great thing about being big is that Ceroc can capitalise on any new idea. If someone, be it an independent or a Ceroc franchisee, comes up with something that works better than the Ceroc formula there's nothing to stop Ceroc working out what's so good about it, polishing it up and refining it then rolling it out across the country. How many one-off independents have the skills or resources to do that? But they can copy it once Ceroc have gone public, like they did with consolidation lessons a few years ago.

I have been teaching 5 years now, when I started I had never been to a Ceroc class but Graham used to tell anyone with less than six weeks dancing exp. to sit and wathc the intermediate class:what:
IMO these guys had paid their money and this was wrong.
So I started my first nights teaching includig a repeat beginners class (consolidation).
The lady I was teaching with (a good friend) was not comfortable with being on stage and went back to taxi with Graham - taking my ideas which I am pleased to say he adopted and so did others in the area.
I am not taking credit for the consolidation class idea - it is common sense thing that I am sure loads of teachers practice now and then.
Our format is currently
1 Introduction to Leroc beginners
1 Spinning for all
2 Beginners class for all
3 Freestyle dancing
4 Intermediate class
4 repeat eginners class
5 Freestyle dancing
6 advanced class (numbers permiting) expaning on intermediate class with style pointers, move variations and a seducer.

I get between 50 - 70 dancers a night in a venue with bar, three dance areas, parkng etc. etc. If ceroc ran this venue they would double that number within months - that is their strength and my weakness.

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

The great advantage Ceroc has is that they can remove or retrain any poor teachers, unlike the independents.
now this is a goody
A local dancer (and friend) recently took the Leroc teaching exam - and failed (this exam is so easy)
so in order to raise the standard of dance in the area the decision was...........B##ger them I will start my own class anyway :what: so we now have another class, another teacher, another dance organiser - as he is popular his numbers are ok but.....

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

Independents

For a start, these guys wouldn't be there if it wasn't for James Cronin starting Ceroc way back in the mists of time.
Ok so James would not be here if Frankie Manning and th Lindy Hop dancers from the Savoy Ballroom had not been around in the 30's, but they would not have been there if......................we could keep going back.
The dance has evolved as a result of a few to the pleasure of many.
pp

ps Sorry Greg/wendy had to work all weekend

Lounge Lizard

9th-November-2003, 11:46 AM

Oh Bu##er made a complete mess of the quote bit and meant to Preview message not post it
must remember use / not \ in Quote box :sad:

Gus

9th-November-2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by JamesGeary
It's factory teaching, where all teachers are trained the same, and end up all dancing the same style and teaching the same way. It's a little dull after a while because you've seen one, you've seen them all. (except Marc, who did ceroc teacher training but managed to keep an interesting style)

James, excellent points ... didn't know you were NZ trained ... would really like to catch up with you at some point and swap notes as I believe that Ceroc UK could benefit immensely from some of the NZ idea (not saying that either is better .. just that both have their strong points).
Anyway ... ramble over ..... need to take exception (mildly) to your point about uniform style. I would say that standard Ceroc presentation last about 12 months after qualifying, then as the instructor gradually remembers how to dance again, their natural style should start returning. I would say that about half the Ceroc instructors I've seen have got a personal style ... you may not always like it but at least its there.

Where there are independents you seem to get more classes and smaller classes. Safety doesn't seem to become an issue in these situations because of the personal level of supervision (I'm getting that in before Gus).

Arrrrrr ... TOTALLY have to disagree. I would say that the independents, INCLUDING some of the top instructors, pay little regard to safety. I've been in numerous advanced classes where there were dancers who were way outside their comfort and ability zone and endangering others, and themselves. Some instructors do take the time to labour the safety points ... but I would venture they are in the minority.

PS ... when will us Northeners get the pleasure of your company?:waycool: Fancy coming up as a guest for our Amir weekend (29/11)?

DavidB

9th-November-2003, 12:43 PM

Lots of points Andy, and I might end up replying instead of watching the second half of the rugby! Just one quick point...

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
but they're all based on the orginal Ceroc framework, couples in lines, teacher at the front, spares moving on, same moves, etc. How do you think people taught dance classes before Ceroc? The very first class I ever went to ( a ballroom class in '84) had everyone doing the moves at the same time, with partners being rotated, etc. We were in a circle, not lines, but lines don't work too well for a waltz! You would do one move, then try it to music. Then you would do another move, try that to music, and then try to do both moves together. Sound familiar? The teacher said she had been teaching this way for 30 years.

Gus

9th-November-2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
How do you think people taught dance classes before Ceroc? The very first class I ever went to ( a ballroom class in '84) had everyone doing the moves at the same time, with partners being rotated, etc. ......Sound familiar? The teacher said she had been teaching this way for 30 years.

The Oracle one more speaks words of wisdom. I've been told on more than one occaision (and had it proven) that Ceroc has brought nothing new to the scene in that every item of its proposition has been done before, even Taxi dancers. What IS new, however, was how it brought it all together in a complete package.

DavidB

9th-November-2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Gus
I would say that standard Ceroc presentation last about 12 months after qualifying, then as the instructor gradually remembers how to dance again, their natural style should start returning. I would say that about half the Ceroc instructors I've seen have got a personal style ... you may not always like it but at least its there.I'm not sure about this. If you go to Hammersmith after one of the CTA weekends (when a lot of the teachers go afterwards) you can usually tell the Ceroc teachers from the way they dance. Not all - you would never guess that Mike Ellard, Marc (Mr Rachel) or Lena from Brighton have anything to do with Ceroc at all.

NB: Most of the teachers at Hammersmith congregate near the stage, and dance a lot between themselves. Does that make them Hot Shots? :devil: :devil:

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Safety doesn't seem to become an issue in these situations because of the personal level of supervision

Originally posted by Gus
Arrrrrr ... TOTALLY have to disagree. I would say that the independents, INCLUDING some of the top instructors, pay little regard to safety.I wouldn't agree with either of you. The most dangerous class I've seen was taught by an independent doing aerials. The worst drops I've seen in a class were taught by a Ceroc teacher. I'd rate Ceroc pretty much as average when it comes to safety. They would gain a few bonus points for always having liability insurance. But would lose them for doing nothing about the arm-wrestling that passes for leading and following, and the long term injuries that this can cause. (If this were the US, then someone would have taken them to court by now.)

Gus

9th-November-2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
(If this were the US, then someone would have taken them to court by now.)

Well ... there is the well known case, but seldom mentioned, of someone trying to take a Ceroc teacher to court for an alleged back injury but it never came to pass. As to why not ... well the true story will never be known.

Re your point re Ceroc teachers tending to dance in a similar way ... reasonable point at Hammersmith, but is that a reflection o how advanced they are as dancers rather than anything else? I don’t think even the CTA would say that all the Ceroc instructors are the best dancers ... and so their ability to incorporate more style and more interpretation may not be as high as some of the independent dancers.

At the end of the day, if you have to stand on stage twice a week to teach beginners the 'correct' way to dance, its bound to reflect in limiting your own dance style?

And I'm not just picking on Ceroc .. the same equally applies to Blitz, MoJive, LeRoc etc.

ChrisA

9th-November-2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
NB: Most of the teachers at Hammersmith congregate near the stage, and dance a lot between themselves. Does that make them Hot Shots? :devil: :devil:

If I go to Hammersmith which is rare these days, I must confess to spending most of the time in the stageward third of the hall....

... because the other end smells. :sick: :sick:

There seems to be a distinct inverse correlation between dancer standard and distance from the stage in many venues (Fulham, Hammersmith, Casbah, even Hipsters to a lesser extent), and of course there are plenty of individuals who are very notable exceptions to this, but only at Hammersmith IME is it whiffy down at the plebs' end :devil: :devil:

As a pleb myself, I spend plenty of time at the plebs' end elsewhere, but my commitment to not being a hotshot ends suddenly if I have to inhale the combined exudate of a load of stinky people :mad: :really: :tears: :sick:

Chris

Tiggerbabe

9th-November-2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
NB: Most of the teachers at Hammersmith congregate near the stage, and dance a lot between themselves. Does that make them Hot Shots? :devil: :devil:

Do you mean at the "Update weekend" David?
Don't think it makes them hot shots - maybe they are just spending their time dancing with friends they haven't seen for some time, as it's probably one of the few times they get to catch up.

p.s. Looking forward to getting a dance or 3 in Aberdeen very soon :drool:

DavidB

9th-November-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Gus
What IS new, however, was how it brought it all together in a complete package. I still wouldn't agree.

As far as the actual class structure goes - Ceroc haven't done anything. I've been to WCS, Salsa, Hustle and even Lindy class in the US, and you would think they were teaching using the 'Ceroc' method. I've been to Ballroom classes in Australia in '85, and they were using the 'Ceroc' method. Do you think they had ever even heard of Ceroc? They were doing this before Janie Cronin had ever said "5 6 7 8" for the first time. Everything is identical. Beginners & Intermediate - everyone does it (most have them have had advanced for years as well :devil: ) . Classes followed by freestyle - everyone does it (they just call it social dancing, not freestyle). Standardisation of what and how to teach - why do you think it takes so long to become a Ballroom teacher? Workshops, dance holidays, cruises, weekend events, competitions...

What Ceroc did do was to present (not invent) a dance that anyone could learn. They taught it in an enjoyable way. They marketed it by word of mouth and made it very fashionable. And when they realised they had found a real market, they ran it far batter as a business than any other dance organisation I've seen. That is more than enough to earn my respect.

David

Gus

9th-November-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
I still wouldn't agree.
....... What Ceroc did do was to present (not invent) a dance that anyone could learn.
David

I thought thats what I said :what:

The standardisation of the dancing, presentation and teacher training is a great strength. HOWEVER .. if they try to branch out from this commodity they could well lose the plot. Business history is replete with succesfull businesses who branched out and foundered ... Levis disasterous US venture into casual clothing in the late 80s etc. The ability to mass market a basic concept is a very different concept to trying to corner the advanced market ... though it would be nice to see what happens when this comes to pass.

DavidB

9th-November-2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Sheena
Don't think it makes them hot shots - maybe they are just spending their time dancing with friends they haven't seen for some time, as it's probably one of the few times they get to catch up. I don't think it makes them hot shots at all - even though I will get more refusals when Hammersmith coincides with an Update weekend than at any other time. But many of the people who are perceived as being hot shots also just want to catch up and dance with their friends. You get the same at Camber, or Rock Bottoms. You get it at the Casbah, and even at Hipsters.

I know there are some true hot shots out there. But I think a lot of people get wrongly accused of it.

David

DavidB

9th-November-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Gus
I thought thats what I said No - what you said was that Ceroc were the first people to do this. They are just one of the most recent.

Gus

9th-November-2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
No - what you said was that Ceroc were the first people to do this. They are just one of the most recent.

I concede.

Oracle 326 - ODA 0

DavidB

9th-November-2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Gus
Oracle 326 - ODA 0 Don't be so hard on yourself - I'm sure one of them was a draw

Gus

9th-November-2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
Don't be so hard on yourself - I'm sure one of them was a draw

More than can be said of Wales:devil: :devil:

Tiggerbabe

9th-November-2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
even though I will get more refusals when Hammersmith coincides with an Update weekend than at any other time
David

I'm shocked!
David, any chance of yourself and Lily moving to Scotland?
I find it hard to believe you ever get refused without you being refused more than usual :hug:

Daisy

9th-November-2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
I don't think it makes them hot shots at all - even though I will get more refusals when Hammersmith coincides with an Update weekend than at any other time. But many of the people who are perceived as being hot shots also just want to catch up and dance with their friends. You get the same at Camber, or Rock Bottoms. You get it at the Casbah, and even at Hipsters.

I know there are some true hot shots out there. But I think a lot of people get wrongly accused of it.

David

How could any woman, in her right mind, want to refuse a dance with you David! I'm shocked....they don't know what they are missing.:really:

Tiggerbabe

9th-November-2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Daisy
I'm shocked....

Daisy - you took the words right out of my mouth :wink:

Paul F

9th-November-2003, 09:32 PM

Im noot going to comment on the comparison of classes as i think all has been said.

Just to say a big :cheers: for having the ability to discuss such an important topic. All the better for MJ.

Just one point i must disagree on

Originally posted by DavidB
I'm not sure about this. If you go to Hammersmith after one of the CTA weekends (when a lot of the teachers go afterwards) you can usually tell the Ceroc teachers from the way they dance. Not all - you would never guess that Mike Ellard, Marc (Mr Rachel) or Lena from Brighton have anything to do with Ceroc at all.

I believe its all down to the teacher. If they are confident enough to hold on to their own style (in freestyle) yet adapt to teach a class then they can maintain that ability tol add their own perspective to a dance. Of all the ceroc teachers I have come across i would say the VAST majority have their own style.

I have my own style (whether thats good or bad is irrelevant) but i will hold on to that for free dancing yet i will dance + teach to fit the class im teaching.

It can be argued that I am relatively new to teaching and its fine for now, but I think its down to the person and their drive to use this 'double' dance style.

A couple of months ago I danced with a few ceroc teachers at an event. Two of them i couldnt dance with. Why.......difference in style!!

I believe this was brught about through geographical location rather than class operator.

TheTramp

9th-November-2003, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by Gus
At the end of the day, if you have to stand on stage twice a week to teach beginners the 'correct' way to dance, its bound to reflect in limiting your own dance style?Don't know if I agree with this.

Some of the better dancers in the country (the following list is mainly taken from competition results only, and not from personal likes/dislikes) teach beginners classes, and I don't see it limiting their style - Mark Wilson, Sheriff, Graham LeClerc, Viktor, Mick Wenger, Adam Nathenson, Marc Forster, Rob Winter (ok, and out of the country too), Emma Pettit, Deb Woodyard (as a demo), Nicky Haslem, Deb Cantoni, the list could grow by a lot more, but I'm fed up of typing now.....

Steve

Andy McGregor

10th-November-2003, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by DavidB
How do you think people taught dance classes before Ceroc? The very first class I ever went to ( a ballroom class in '84) had everyone doing the moves at the same time, with partners being rotated, etc. We were in a circle, not lines, but lines don't work too well for a waltz! You would do one move, then try it to music. Then you would do another move, try that to music, and then try to do both moves together. Sound familiar? The teacher said she had been teaching this way for 30 years.

Of course you are right. I did ballroom back in 1984 too. The Doris Myers School of Dance in Hull, East Yorks. We had couples in lines rather than in a circle. But there were only 6-8 couples! I suppose that if there'd been more of us we might have made a cirlcle...

The difference is that Ceroc do it on a much, much bigger scale. I couldn't imagine learning the tango in a Ceroc type class.

Dance Demon

10th-November-2003, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And more than half of the Ceroc venues in my area STILL ALLOW SMOKING - in fact, all of the smoking classes I know are Ceroc venues - only one of the independents, Jeff Jasper of Dance Party, allows smoking at his dance venues and I recommend you stay away from him as he told me to 'go f**k yourself' when I brought up the smoking subeject. So.......don't you like smoking then Andy???:devil: :devil: :devil:
...would never have guessed..why haven't you mentioned this before?.........Oh you have......:wink::D

Andy McGregor

10th-November-2003, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by Dance Demon
So.......don't you like smoking then Andy???:devil: :devil: :devil:
...would never have guessed..why haven't you mentioned this before?.........Oh you have......:wink::D I'm like a cracked record, until I achieve my objective. Also, did I mention that Jeff Jasper of Dance Party had told me to 'go f**k yourself'?:devil: :devil: :devil:

Dance Demon

10th-November-2003, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I'm like a cracked record, until I achieve my objective. Also, did I mention that Jeff Jasper of Dance Party had told me to 'go f**k yourself'?:devil: :devil: :devil: you don't say.......:rofl: :rofl:

bigdjiver

10th-November-2003, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Also, did I mention that Jeff Jasper of Dance Party had told me to 'go f**k yourself'?:devil: :devil: :devil:

He's obviously seen the picture.

Andy McGregor

10th-November-2003, 01:18 AM

Tonight, for research purposes only, :devil: I went out dancing:really: I went to Adam's new class in Shoreham. I missed the lesson as I'd spent the day at various remembrance day services and British Legions talking to Spitfire pilots and Coastguards, etc:waycool:

JB was the DJ so the music was massively 'non-Ceroc'. We had a great night, people were there as a result of a busk, they were there as a result of press advertising. And that is what makes Ceroc different. They are developing the business and recruiting new dancers - as opposed to some independents who spend their time smoking and telling their customers to 'go f**k yourself' (have I mentioned this:confused: ).

Will

10th-November-2003, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by Paul F
A couple of months ago I danced with a few ceroc teachers at an event. Two of them i couldnt dance with. Why.......

I believe this was brught about through geographical location rather than class operator.

i.e. What? You mean their arms weren't long enough???

Andy McGregor

10th-November-2003, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by Paul F
A couple of months ago I danced with a few ceroc teachers at an event. Two of them i couldnt dance with. Why.......difference in style!!

I believe this was brught about through geographical location rather than class operator.

Was the geographical location problem due to your partners being in a different country?:devil: :devil:

Seriously though, I have noticed geographical differences in dance style. But I think this is due to teachers rather than distance.

But Ceroc is, in my experience, the same everywhere....

Jon L

10th-November-2003, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Tonight, for research purposes only, :devil: I went out dancing:really: I went to Adam's new class in Shoreham. I missed the lesson as I'd spent the day at various remembrance day services and British Legions talking to Spitfire pilots and Coastguards, etc:waycool:

JB was the DJ so the music was massively 'non-Ceroc'. We had a great night, people were there as a result of a busk, they were there as a result of press advertising.

For me to have gone dancing tonight after a nights insomnia after being out dancing late last night and having to go to work today, would have been overload in big way..... - meaning to try this new venue out probably will in a couple of weeks.:D

Interesting the quotes about the CTA weekend at H-smith and the refusal row! I wonder if the people there actually are aware about the effect it has some people. I have heard it said from a friends that he felt that the 'Plebs' were tollerated rather than welcomed

Paul F

10th-November-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Was the geographical location problem due to your partners being in a different country?:devil: :devil:

Seriously though, I have noticed geographical differences in dance style. But I think this is due to teachers rather than distance.

But Ceroc is, in my experience, the same everywhere....

Yeah, from what i have seen i think it must be variations in style due to the local teacher population.
As an example, i went up to Birmingham a while back. I started dancing normally :what: and the response from nearly everyone was 'Oooo ive never seen that up here'. Coupled this with the certain exaggerated running position that quite a number of ladies adopted up there i can only guess this is because that particular set of clubs had chosen to teach this.

I guess it could have just been a fluke.

I wonder if there is a definitive difference in 'style' from different areas across the country. As someone pointed out, teachers will mature into their own style and maybe influence local teachers to them!! hmmm....

Sheepman

11th-November-2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Franck
The problem with venues like Hipsters, is that while they do attract some of the best dancers (and those that think they are, they do not cater for the needs of Beginners, and for every successful new person introduced by a member of the in-crowd, there will be dozens of new people visiting who get turned down, and crucially, will not learn anything (at least nothing they're prepared to hear).
I've only just got into this thread, and maybe this has already been commented on, so apologies if this is repetition.

I'm afraid Franck you have got this completely wrong. OK as it started out, Hipster's was on once a week, and didn't cater for beginner's, but once this became a success, then the Wednesday nights were "restarted" (Franco had been running Wednesday nights there for at least the previous 11 years). I believe that the Wednesday's are now becoming more successful, and it is great to see the beginner's that I've first met on a Wednesday, coming through to the Tuesday's and starting to enjoy them.

And as for dozens of new people visiting and getting turned down, I know I make an effort (and I'm sure others like ChrisA do too) to dance with unfamiliar faces there. It's impossible to do more than 5 or 6 in a night though. I think in any venue where you are a new face, you can expect more time in your chair than once you are known. I've not heard of dozens of people being turned down there, and I'm sure Nigel et al would be shocked if they thought this was happening.

Greg

Franck

13th-November-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Sheepman
I'm afraid Franck you have got this completely wrong. OK as it started out, Hipster's was on once a week, and didn't cater for beginner's, but once this became a success, then the Wednesday nights were "restarted" (Franco had been running Wednesday nights there for at least the previous 11 years). I believe that the Wednesday's are now becoming more successful, and it is great to see the beginner's that I've first met on a Wednesday, coming through to the Tuesday's and starting to enjoy them. I may well, be, but I wasn't talking about Hipsters only...
Having said that, having a Beginners class is not enough to say that you cater for Beginners.
Taxi-dancers make a huge difference, and by this I mean Taxi-dancers who wear an easily recognizable uniform. I seem to recall someone saying that Nigel taxi-danced on Wednesdays, but most Beginners (indeed most experienced) dancers would be scared to ask Nigel or other great dancers, unless there was no doubt they were on duty (ie wearing a shirt and properly introduced as such).

Secondly, and again, I speak from Scotland, with only feedback on this Forum and from a few people I know who have been to Hipsters, Beginners need an accessible Intermediate class, judging by last night's class, this does not happen.
I agree with Will that Hipsters has decided to tag their night as 'Advanced' and while there might be a gap in the market for it, it is disingenuous to say that it will cater for Beginners.

Franck.

Sheepman

13th-November-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Franck
but I wasn't talking about Hipsters only...
Having said that, having a Beginners class is not enough to say that you cater for Beginners.
Secondly, and again, I speak from Scotland, with only feedback on this Forum and from a few people I know who have been to Hipsters, Beginners need an accessible Intermediate class, judging by last night's class, this does not happen.
I agree with Will that Hipsters has decided to tag their night as 'Advanced' and while there might be a gap in the market for it, it is disingenuous to say that it will cater for Beginners.

OK, I can't really comment on other places, as I don't have regular enough recent experience.

It is not enough for taxi dancers to wear uniforms, they need to actively seek out the timid beginners, (which Nigel does, I can't say how the guys get on). I've been to at least one Ceroc venue where this doesn't happen, and I'm not really sure why they bother with taxi dancers at all.

I think last night was not a good example to pick as far as the intermediate lesson was concerned. Viktor's intermediate lessons are always challenging, but I think he went more towards the advanced mode last night, in view of the audience (ie mostly Tuesday's dancers) that he had. Having intermediate lessons that are too easy is surely one of the reasons that Hipster's on a Tuesday is such a success, dancers who are bored with the Ceroc lessons? I am not saying that Hipsters copes with beginners as well as many Ceroc venues, I don't think it does, but it does cater for them.

Greg

Gus

13th-November-2003, 07:31 PM

I think the original comments were raising the question of Ceroc v the Rest. I'm not sure if that question has been fully addressed. The thread now seems to be Hipsters v The Rest. Hipsters is fairly unique and as a concept probably could only exist in London. Where else is there the density of advanced dancers to keep such an entity viable?

Friends of mine were, lamenting the demise of the Middlewich club, were discussing the prospect of setting up an 'elite' (OK ... poor phrase) club, deliberately targeting the better dancers through more sophisticated music and more advanced lessons. Nice idea, we need something like that to push and develop dancers, but I don’t believe that we have enough dancers of that quality in the North.

Paul F

13th-November-2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Gus

Friends of mine were, lamenting the demise of the Middlewich club, were discussing the prospect of setting up an 'elite' (OK ... poor phrase) club, deliberately targeting the better dancers through more sophisticated music and more advanced lessons. Nice idea, we need something like that to push and develop dancers, but I don’t believe that we have enough dancers of that quality in the North.

I must confess I would love to see something like that up here. A 'Hipsters' of the North (obviously using a different name :grin: )

Hopsters?? :confused: :D only kidding.

It would be great to see as it does give an extension to the usual nights. Like you say though Gus, probably isnt enough demand.
Be nice though.

Neil

13th-November-2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Gus
Nice idea, we need something like that to push and develop dancers, but I don’t believe that we have enough dancers of that quality in the North. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem, isn't it? I can't speak about the North, but in the Midlands I'm sure there would be quite a few dancers who would be interested in a Hipsters-style night. If your "Hipsters of the North" was conveniently close to the M6, you could tap into that market too.

Incidentally, Blitz must be doing something right in Stockport, as I see their Xmas party is sold out already, as was their last party. What's the standard of dancing like there?

:cheers:

Neil

Andy McGregor

13th-November-2003, 09:56 PM

You are right about this becoming a 'What do you think of Hipsters' thread. There's already one of those. It's called 'Hipsters':wink:

But to continue in the same vein of discussion, I wonder if there's room in the whole country for more than two Hipsters? And probably room for one in Scotland. If people are travelling up to 100 miles to go to Ealing then each dance club using the Hipsters formula would need to be at least 200 miles from Hipsters and each other to ensure that their orbits didn't overlap. So the next nearest place would have to be somewhere on the M62 to ensure that there was easy access. That means somewhere near Manchester or Leeds. I've met a lot of Manchester dancers and think it would work for them but I'm not sure it would make enough money for the organiser.

I don't think Hipsters is especially about advanced dancers, but, because of it's formula, it does attract them. Quite a few of the top guys don't even do the lesson (although I ALWAYS do because I think turning up and positively not doing the lesson says something I don't want to say about myself), I think it's about people who want to get better at modern jive. People who want to do more than collect new moves, for whom dancing is more about "how you do it" rather than "what you do". And THAT is what's wrong with Ceroc at present, it doesn't cater for people who've reached the 'how you do it' stage in their dancing. Maybe there's not enough of us to make the market financially attractive. Or maybe there are too many different "how you do it's" to apply the mass market approach of Ceroc. Which leaves room for an independent to offer this service to a small but motivated bunch of dancers.

Which is what the difference is between Ceroc and indpendents. Ceroc has to be mass market wereas independents can be niche.

Gus

13th-November-2003, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Neil

Incidentally, Blitz must be doing something right in Stockport, as I see their Xmas party is sold out already, as was their last party. What's the standard of dancing like there?

:cheers:

Neil

Standard of dancing is about as good as you'd get at a reasonable freestyle event ... however, as there will be about 400 dancers there are correspondingly more good dancers. Theres probably about 40 or so 'advanced' dancers across the North and at least half of them will be there that night. at least the music should be better than usual .... Punkfish is one of the two DJs:grin:

DavidB

14th-November-2003, 01:39 AM

There has been a lot said lately about Advanced classes - both positive and negative. My view is that there is a demand for them from a minority of dancers, but a desire not to alienate the majority who are happy with the current structure.

So I was trying to think when would be a convenient time to 'test the water', whilst minimising the cost, and having no impact on everyone else.

- Daytime workshops are inconvenient for a lot of people, and have the extra cost of hiring a hall.
- Normal class nights have no time or space for any more lessons
- An 'Advanced only' night would be seen as elitist.
- If you are teaching ideas, technique or style, weekly classes can be confusing. Monthly classes might be easier on the brain.

How about having something at a freestyle night, when the usual 'introductory' class is running? There is usually the space for a small class. You would get some of the good dancers in early, instead of 10:00pm when they usually turn up! You don't need to call it 'Advanced'. Just make it sound different to normal classes. You could let the people in the class decide what to learn the next time. You could charge £1 or 2 extra, so that everyone else isn't subsidising it. The biggest problem (other than no-one turning up) could be stopping it becoming a clique.

I'm just coming down with the flu, so I haven't thought it through properly. Anyone got any comments?

Jon L

14th-November-2003, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Neil
It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem, isn't it? I can't speak about the North, but in the Midlands I'm sure there would be quite a few dancers who would be interested in a Hipsters-style night. If your "Hipsters of the North" was conveniently close to the M6, you could tap into that market too.

Incidentally, Blitz must be doing something right in Stockport, as I see their Xmas party is sold out already, as was their last party. What's the standard of dancing like there?

:cheers:

Neil

If there's enough of you then perhaps you should talk to Franco about how he does it and ask for his advice. You would then need to talk to the established jive teachers about coming up and getting you going - Sounds like Birmingham might be a good place.

ChrisA

14th-November-2003, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think it's about people who want to get better at modern jive. People who want to do more than collect new moves, for whom dancing is more about "how you do it" rather than "what you do". And THAT is what's wrong with Ceroc at present, it doesn't cater for people who've reached the 'how you do it' stage in their dancing.
Absolutely (what's that, you say, Chris agreeing with Andy ???).

But tis true.

If there had been no Hipsters, there would have been no ChrisA.

And you know what? I didn't even know it was what I needed.

I hope you're right, Franck, and that the changes in Ceroc you've been alluding to are the sort of thing that will keep future ChrisAs dancing, and then starting to improve. Preferably without the long period of stagnation in the middle.

Because I'm sure having a great time now. :cheers:

Chris

ChrisA

14th-November-2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by DavidB
I'm just coming down with the flu
Oh dear :sad: :tears: :sad: :tears:

I hope it isn't proper flu. If it is, see you in three weeks time :tears: :tears: :tears:

Maybe tomorrow night was the right time to book that date with muggles after all.

Get well soon,
Chris :hug:

Jon L

14th-November-2003, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by DavidB

I'm just coming down with the flu, so I haven't thought it through properly. Anyone got any comments?

Get well soon old chum lots of rest and get Lily to look after you. :wink:

On the subject of flu - I have the jab each year because I am asthmatic so getting it could make me quite unwell.

bigdjiver

14th-November-2003, 02:24 AM

A half-baked idea of mine is for those venues that have a separate room available to have a "teachers class", sy for half an hour, say 15 mins after the intermediate.. Which is run by the teacher for whoever and however they fancy. There could be an extra charge. The money could go to the teacher. There would have to be a limit on numbers.

Here showcase moves and routines could be practised, and perhaps formation displays.

This might be a way to entice more advanced dancers to limpid venues.

Will

14th-November-2003, 02:47 AM

I would challenge the mindset of "Ceroc vs The Rest, or Hipsters vs the Rest".

It should be Ceroc + Hipsters + Independants have given us all so much pleasure in life, that we should all be very grateful. Ok, so in business they are all pitted against one another but .....

In the last 20+ years Ceroc / Modern Jive has left Ballroom, Salsa, any other form of dance you'd care to mention for dead in terms of getting the average member of the public to find out what joy dancing beholds and what people as individuals, are capable of in dance. (Not that we should be putting down other forms of dance either). But so many of us have experience of how dancing has improved the quality of our lives due to this dynamic.

I personally believe that Ceroc / Hipsters / Other independants have all at the end of the day helped each other with the proliferation of dance throughout the UK (and the world I guess). They've all satisfied areas of the dance market (and indeed created a dance market) It is because of this that it saddens me when people use one to belittle another sometimes. Fair enough that they are competed against one another in business, such is the world, but they all contribute a fantastic product that I think we should support.

Love the Dance Baby! :wink:

Gadget

14th-November-2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by DavidB
... - If you are teaching ideas, technique or style, weekly classes can be confusing. Monthly classes might be easier on the brain.
There are normally monthly partys held on a specific saturday night of the month in each of the Scottish areas (Glasgow, Dundee, Perth, Edinburugh, Aberdeen)
The format of these is to have a basic, basic class at the start (8-8:30ish), then into freestyle untill midnight.

I would propose that an "advanced" party night be had once a month, moved from area to area each month and instead of having a really basic class, have an advanced one.

The only down side I can see to this would be the confusion of any beginners that strayed into the advanced party, but in each area it would only happen about twice a year (due to rotation).

Andy McGregor

14th-November-2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Will
I would challenge the mindset of "Ceroc vs The Rest, or Hipsters vs the Rest".

...snip..

Love the Dance Baby! :wink:

I agree with Will. That's how I see it too. But then it's not my living...

Chris

14th-November-2003, 11:07 AM

Will's comments make sense to me as well - but London will no doubt evolve with the market. Apart from the level of experience offered, the other big difference that strikes me about Hipsters vs Ceroc is that Hipsters appeals to people who are that bit more 'serious' about dancing (like the old 'dance school' idea) whereas as Ceroc is fun fun fun whether you learn the (initially boring) techniques or not.

Most of the venues are woefully underused, and marketing possibilities wasted, but hey, it's a competitive market. Marcos (Edinburgh) has ceroc, salsa, swing, and goodness knows what else, but you only find out about all the classes when you go looking. Compare the ceroc timetable for Auckland Central (http://www.ceroc.co.nz/ and click classes, Auckland Central) and you've got Ceroc (all levels), salsa, lambada, swing, lindy hop and tango all on the same sheet.

They haven't had the competition that Ceroc here has had, but you see the point. It also means a mentality that encourages dance and developing one's awareness of all sorts of dance (which usually means trying more than one sort of dance), and their teachers are actively encouraged to do this. Some of the Ceroc teachers here need to 'get out of the house' a bit more to find out what the grass is like, find new ways they can develop people without going against the rule book. A monthly 'advanced' class in Edinburgh would be a nice idea but last time it was tried it seemed to stop for lack of interest. But there's other ways to encourage people to develop . . . (sorry if this sounds a bit opinionated - been up all night . . . ok, I'll get off back to my aromatic crispy duck recipe . . .)
:na:

Lynn

14th-November-2003, 01:23 PM

Hi – new to this forum, and I can’t comment on ‘comparisons’ between ceroc and independents as there is no ceroc in my country – that faraway land of… Northern Ireland! But we do have salsa (which I have just started learning) and because of that have been able to get a modern jive class going immediately after an existing salsa class (thanks to someone being willing to teach!) - everyone (including myself!) are beginners. I for one am very glad that there is this overlap between salsa and jive, here at least. And some new dancers to both have commented that they find the modern jive easier than the salsa and this has encouraged them to continue dancing, which is great!

I will be in London at a ceroc venue next week and it will be interesting to see what differences there are to our wee class here...

Lynn

Boomer

14th-November-2003, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Lynn
... And some new dancers to both have commented that they find the modern jive easier than the salsa and this has encouraged them to continue dancing, which is great!

I will be in London at a ceroc venue next week and it will be interesting to see what differences there are to our wee class here...

Lynn

And this is where Ceroc scores all the points for me. I've been to a few venues, indie and Ceroc, and as a beginner who convinced himself that he couldn't dance the continuity at Ceroc venues is not only reassuring, but also encouraging. Familiarity is comforting. This in turn has led me to want to try different styles of dance at the first opportunity.
Where the independents score is in what they offer beyond the Ceroc package, the chance to learn a bit of musicality, a routine etc.

I don’t see one as being better than the other, but done well as the perfect compliment. Much more important is the level and quality of teaching that either supplies. Victor’s tuition is sublime, adds two steps to the ‘First-Step’ and gives it a new lease of life (I am a beginner after all), whereas Cliff’s ability to make an intermediate class challenging but not scary (refer to my beginner bit :nice: ) is priceless. One of those is an ‘indie’, the other is not. Which one of those is better? – impossible to answer, they’re both excellent.

Done well, indie and Ceroc are an excellent compliment, done badly they are both nightmarish, and I’ve had bad nights at both that were they my first night, could have put me off for good.

P.S Lynn, where abouts in London will you be? Come and say hello if you spot me, I’ll be holding a beer and doing the Arm-jive all night long :grin:

Emma

14th-November-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Boomer
Where the independents score is in what they offer beyond the Ceroc package, the chance to learn a bit of musicality, a routine etc. I think it's arguable that Ceroc *does* provide this, though it is usually in 'one off' workshop form. If you happen to be lucky enough to live in Scotland, or to be good at actively seeking out workshops in your area then there are plenty of these. However in my opinion there is scope for improvement from Ceroc in providing more 'regular' style/musicality etc workshops, perhaps in the way that they run beginners and intermediate workshops, thus catering more pro-actively for those within their customer base who wish to take their obsession (!) beyond social dancing.

I don’t see one as being better than the other, but done well as the perfect compliment. Agreed. I think the success of this forum is a fine testament to the advantages of allowing 'corporate' and 'independant' to co-exist and compliment one another. (Nice one, Franck :hug: )

Boomer

14th-November-2003, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Emma
I think it's arguable that Ceroc *does* provide this, though it is usually in 'one off' workshop form. ..

Sorry Emma, I may have been a bit lax in expressing what I meant :blush: I actually meant that Ceroc doesn't provide this, except in workshops, and that that is where the indies step in.

Ignore this Emma, I'm not concentrating today, sorry hun :blush:

Emma

14th-November-2003, 03:13 PM

Who said that? :wink:

RobC

22nd-November-2003, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by ChrisA
I hope you're right, Franck, and that the changes in Ceroc you've been alluding to are the sort of thing that will keep future ChrisAs dancing, and then starting to improve. Preferably without the long period of stagnation in the middle.

I dont know what news Franck is keeping to himself, but I have been privvy to some news (which I'm afraid I can't pass on just yet - watch for announcements in the next few weeks ;) ) which should prove interesting for the future.

Watch this space.....

Rob

RobC

22nd-November-2003, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by DavidB
There has been a lot said lately about Advanced classes - both positive and negative. My view is that there is a demand for them from a minority of dancers, but a desire not to alienate the majority who are happy with the current structure.

How about having something at a freestyle night, when the usual 'introductory' class is running? There is usually the space for a small class. You would get some of the good dancers in early, instead of 10:00pm when they usually turn up! You don't need to call it 'Advanced'. Just make it sound different to normal classes.

Well in my (admittedly biased) opinion, I think that Jive Bug in Fleet have got a good formula going. We have the advantage of two good sized rooms to use as well as the bar area for repeating the beginners class, and manage to cram in 5 classes every night: Introduction to Lindy Hop, Beginner Jive, Repeat Beginners Jive, Improvers Jive and Intermediate Jive. Also, once a month, we have Nigel & Nina guest teaching an advanced jive class which for that week replaces the intermediate class in the main room.

The improvers class, acting as a stepping stone between the beginners and intermediate classes, has proved extremely popular with the punters since we started it back in april, and the once a month advanced classes are usually packed out, drawing people in from far afield, from london down to the south coast and further.

Rob

Andy McGregor

27th-November-2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by RobC
I dont know what news Franck is keeping to himself, but I have been privvy to some news (which I'm afraid I can't pass on just yet - watch for announcements in the next few weeks ;) ) which should prove interesting for the future.

Watch this space.....

Rob

I must be slowing down but I've just done the algebra. Jive Bug have developments coming up and Ceroc have developments coming up. Here is the solution to this simple equation.

Jive Bug = x, Ceroc = y, Developments = z

x+y=2z and 2x+2y=4z

Therefore z=x/2+y/2

Therefore 2x+2y=4(x/2+y2)=4x/2+4y/2=2x+2y

Therefore 4x=4y giving the final soluton x=y

QED Jive Bug=Ceroc

Am I right?:devil:

Chris

27th-November-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I must be slowing down but I've just done the algebra.
QED Jive Bug=Ceroc

I'm no great shakes at algebra but I can imagine Simon staying up all night with his laptop to prove definitely otherwise :rofl:

Andy McGregor

27th-November-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
QED Jive Bug=Ceroc

It all comes down to mathematics in the end.

But you heard it here first:wink:

DavidB

27th-November-2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Jive Bug = x, Ceroc = y, Developments = z
x+y=2z and 2x+2y=4z
{snip}
QED Jive Bug=Ceroc
Am I right? Afraid not. To solve two simultaneous equations, the equations themselves have to be different, and not just multiplied by a factor of 2.

Personally I would say that Jive Bug > Ceroc in their particular area anyway (but I might be biased!!)

David

Chris

27th-November-2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
Personally I would say that Jive Bug > Ceroc in their particular area anyway (but I might be biased!!)

TheTramp

27th-November-2003, 07:20 PM

Do you mean the area of the country???

That's easy then. Since there is no ceroc in that area!! Closest is probably Windsor? Which admittedly is only just over 20 miles, but it feels a lot further. (On the other hand, Windsor ceroc is one of the largest (in terms of attendance) ceroc venues in the country).

Or did you mean in the area of dance?

Steve

Andy McGregor

27th-November-2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
Afraid not. To solve two simultaneous equations, the equations themselves have to be different, and not just multiplied by a factor of 2.

This is still a simultaneous equation. You couldn't have solved either equation on its own. It's just a very, very easy simultaneous equation:wink:

And so is the train of logic I used to deduce the Jive Bug=Ceroc idea. But I think it's only Simon's Jive bug. I have no data about the Marilene Jive Bug. Anyway, if I factored that in I'd probably have to start using calculus and I haven't done that since 1975:confused:

Originally posted by DavidB
Personally I would say that Jive Bug > Ceroc in their particular area anyway (but I might be biased!!)David

I agree with you about this one but you must remember that Mike Ellard would like the following to be true Ceroc2004>Ceroc2003. And one way of doing that is to add in something that is already 'greater than' Ceroc.

I'm currently enjoying the unacustomed feeling of smugness at my own cleverness:wink:

I'm expecting it to all come tumbling down any time now:tears:

p.s. David, were you and Lily doing airsteps in the Hollow Tree earlier? I'm sure I felt Lily's hair brush my bald spot:really:

Lory

27th-November-2003, 11:37 PM

I started dancing at my local Ceroc class about 18months ago. The Basic Ceroc Structure was brilliant, beginners was just what I needed, the standard high enough to satisfy and inspire me, as I gained confidence moving to intermediate, enjoying more of a challenge, improving and loving it!
:grin:
Then just at the perfect time for me, they decided to change the usual Monday night formula to an Advanced night!!

Excitement was felt all around! :cheers:

The teacher warned everyone, repeatedly, if your finding the intermediate classes at all challenging, then this night will NOT be for you!!! The class drew a lot of attention for the first few weeks, lot's of experienced dancers travelled long distances to attend but alas, :tears: it was doomed to failure as they had changed an already established evening.

The old regulars had felt put out, they weren't about to accept they were not up to this new challenge, some of them had been coming to that venue on a Monday, for years, and were not about to sit out or stay at home, so they struggled on (complaining all the way) :sad: and the new advanced dancers got frustrated with people who just didn't meet the grade.

The numbers gradually dwindled and it was evenually reverted back to the old style!

It was a real shame as there was always going to be someone getting upset, some of these people have been going to that venue on a Monday for years, purely to socialise, (nothing wrong with that) but they weren't interested in improving, they probably go swimming on Tuesdays, bridge on Wednesdays and down the Kings Head on Thursdays, nothings going to change their routine.

I feel if someone's going to start another advanced night, it has to be at a completely new venue or introduce a new night for it to work, not simply change an established evening!
:)

Gus

28th-November-2003, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by Lory
..... but alas, :tears: it was doomed to failure as they had changed an already established evening. :)

Maybe the way to do it, as has been done reasonably succesfull up here, is to make , say the 1st Week of the month the advanced week. Thisway, advanced dancers will come in for that one week and the 'locals non-improvers' can stay in the pub that night?

RobC

28th-November-2003, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I must be slowing down but I've just done the algebra. Jive Bug have developments coming up and Ceroc have developments coming up. Here is the solution to this simple equation.

Jive Bug = x, Ceroc = y, Developments = z

x+y=2z and 2x+2y=4z

Apart from your flawed use of the equations as already pointed out be David, you are also making another big assumption which could be wrong - that is that the Jive Bug and Ceroc devlopments are the same....

Really what you should be doing is:
Jive bug = a, Jive Bug Developments = b, Ceroc = c, Ceroc Developments = d

So, a+c = b+d and unless you can prove that b=d, all you end up with is an unholy mess ! :confused:

Rob

Andy McGregor

28th-November-2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by RobC
unless you can prove that b=d, all you end up with is an unholy mess ! :confused:
Rob

Relativity is only a theory. And so is mine, but mine is based on the most flimsy evidence so it must be right.

Rob, are you saying that if b=d there will be an 'unholy mess'. I can see good and bad in it. Although for me the reason I travel all the way to Fleet is because it's different. If Fleet Jive Bug became another Ceroc venue I'd be mad to drive all that way. It would be like passing 6 McDonalds to buy your Big Mac at one miles away.

I still feel quite smug:confused: :wink:

TheTramp

28th-November-2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I still feel quite smug:confused: :wink: What? You??

Never!!! :rolleyes:

Steve

RobC

28th-November-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Rob, are you saying that if b=d there will be an 'unholy mess'.

Not at all Andy. Only that if b<>d, then your logic is even more flawed. :na:

Although for me the reason I travel all the way to Fleet is because it's different.

Yes, Jive Bug in Fleet is different. It has a first-class venue, teaching line-up second-to-none (biased opinion of course ;) ), and we attract a good standard of dancer from quite a wide catchment area. We are also going to be opening 2 new nights in the new year, so I don't see any of this changing any time soon.

Let's be honest here Andy, the reason you really come to Fleet is to dance with me :wink:

Rob

Andy McGregor

28th-November-2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by RobC
Let's be honest here Andy, the reason you really come to Fleet is to dance with me :wink:
Rob

I'm worried that you might be too good to dance with me:tears: now that you're going to be a star of the small screen dancing in a scene William and Mary :waycool:

RobC

28th-November-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I'm worried that you might be too good to dance with me:tears: now that you're going to be a star of the small screen dancing in a scene William and Mary :waycool:

Who told you about that ? I only got the call from the producer yesterday afternoon ! Apparently Hev-mate and I have been earmarked for a special role. :nice:

Andy McGregor

28th-November-2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by RobC
Who told you about that ? I only got the call from the producer yesterday afternoon ! Apparently Hev-mate and I have been earmarked for a special role. :nice:

Just another bit of algebra. I understand it's something to do with a dance held by a slimming club, and I don't qualify as I only have 3 1/2 chins:devil:

Lounge Lizard

28th-November-2003, 08:49 PM

Andy McGregor

29th-November-2003, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Nice bit of tabloid posting Andy - are you a sun reader by any chance?

Quod erat demonstrandum - hardly Sun reader fodder, nice try at a snipe Mr Reptile but not quite on the money:wink:

Lounge Lizard

29th-November-2003, 09:29 AM

so
why the smug tabloid approach
if Ceroc = Jive Bug or Jive Bug = Ceroc
they would make the announcement when they are ready and would not appreciate your posting
if on the other hand it is a load of twadle (as we suspect) then they would still not appreciate your posting.
I hear Mojive and Rebel roc have plans for the future so on the basis of your equation are they joining ceroc?

Andy McGregor

29th-November-2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
so
why the smug tabloid approach

The same reason as the tabloids. To make a single item of gossip I picked up interesting by taking an off the wall angle. What's the problem with that? Would you prefer boring facts when we can make a game of it? People on the Forum depend on me to come up with this off-the-wall stuff and I take my duty seriously.

And the quirky approach is useful when you don't have all of the facts, at least not the detail. But I am aware of some of the headline stuff as it's pretty much an open secret. Must be if I know it!!!

and...

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I hear Mojive and Rebel roc have plans for the future so on the basis of your equation are they joining ceroc?

To paraphrase your own words with a change of names...

..if Mojive = Rebelroc or Rebelroc = Mojive they would make the announcement when they are ready and would not appreciate your posting...

TOUCHE - one point each, I think:devil:

Jon L

29th-November-2003, 12:30 PM

was thinking about a reply in computer programming language but decided against it!

TheTramp

29th-November-2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Jon L
was thinking about a reply in computer programming language but decided against it! Yes. Probably just as well Jon....

Steve

ChrisA

29th-November-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
To make a single item of gossip I picked up interesting by taking an off the wall angle.
A bit too off the wall for me, I'm afraid - I didn't realise what it was about until LL's post. :rolleyes:

I just thought it was a comparison of Ceroc's style with Jivebug, which I'm not really in a position to comment on - although my small amount of experience with Jivebug so far is very positive.

Personally I like the variety.

Talking of variety:

Stop press: David Rokov and Val Forsey are doing a Blues class on Monday at Twickenham Ceroc. No idea what it'll consist of yet, but I have high hopes. Blues? At a Ceroc venue? Great things do seem to be afoot.

Chris

Lory

29th-November-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by ChrisA
Stop press: David Rokov and Val Forsey are doing a Blues class on Monday at Twickenham Ceroc. No idea what it'll consist of yet, but I have high hopes. Blues? At a Ceroc venue? Great things do seem to be afoot.

Chris
They stood in for Linda at Ashtons a few weeks ago and made the class 'Blues' style, it was quite good! Slow teaching style but maybe that was taylored to suit the average person there?
:)

Andy McGregor

29th-November-2003, 03:11 PM

The world of CEROC changes for EVER?

Reports of sweeping changes across the dance scene are flooding in from far and wide. Non-CTA teachers are teaching for Ceroc, non-Ceroc classes are being approached by Ceroc and joining forces. Where will it all end???

So far we have more quesions than answers. What is the full plan? How will it affect the remaining independents? When will it all happen? Does this mean the end of the 'Bouncy' style of modern jive you see in Ceroc classes or will it take over everywhere?

And the most important question of all, how will it affect us, the lowly customers? Will we all be 'put at the forefront of the business'. Or will the relentless focus on youth place some of us outside their area on concern?

These are 'exciting times' and in the words of Terry Pratchet 'God save us from exciting times'.

And, of much more concern to this reporter, how will these changes affect our wiggles?:wink:

Chicky

29th-November-2003, 03:28 PM

Andy McGregor

29th-November-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Chicky
Andy, where did you hear about this?? is it posted anywhere??

Nicky

Please note the interrogative ? at the end of the headline:devil:

I have had 5 different people tell me this stuff now. So the fact I've been told these things is completely correct. As to the truth of the statements, I've no idea as none of them were Ceroc employees.

Still, Mr Lizard has suggested the tabloid approach and they never 'let the truth get in the way of a good story'.

There is currently no evidence whatsoever that Ceroc could wipe out all other modern jive classes within 24 hours using well hidden weapons of mass seduction.

What we need now is a 'secret insider' leak. Anyone want to be a secret insider...

Graham W

29th-November-2003, 05:58 PM

..havent read all 12 pages of this thread yet but responding to comment about Hipsters not being able to exist without CeRoc..

I think the qualityof teachers there is strong enough to create a separate group of dancers - eg the jump n jive/Hipsters image is very distinct from CeRoc.. imagine CeRoc without healthy competition like Hipsters.. ey?

G

Andy McGregor

29th-November-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Graham W
..havent read all 12 pages of this thread yet but responding to comment about Hipsters not being able to exist without CeRoc..

I think the qualityof teachers there is strong enough to create a separate group of dancers - eg the jump n jive/Hipsters image is very distinct from CeRoc.. imagine CeRoc without healthy competition like Hipsters.. ey? Personally, I think Hipsters and all of the other MJ organisations wouldn't have started if James Cronin hadn't started it all. But that's all history.

I think that Hipsters and other independents nowadays don't need Ceroc to survive. They might even get on better if it wasn't there at all:devil: But Ceroc is there so that's not worth debating.

Ceroc is obviously going through a period of rapid change. Let's hope they did their Qualitative and Quantitative market research with their target market. And let's hope they also did some targetting research too. I get the impression that in the past both growth and developments within Ceroc have often been due to serendipity rather than a clear businesslike strategy which has been tested on the anvil of consumer opinion. Ceroc have many staff who are also consumers so they at least have that base of opinion to consult. But everyone else in the market is even more in the dark as they don't really have a sizeable base of consumers to ask. So they test new ideas live or stick to old ideas when they should have moved with the market. Both courses of action are potential killers to a business.

And if we're talking about research amongst non-dancers Ceroc would need to be spending in the region of £50,000 to get anything approximating to a clear picture of what they might think. Especially if they're after a particular market segment.

My greatest fear is that Ceroc get this change wrong. If they dominate the market get the majority of new trials coming to them but blow it with a product that isn't properly tested the new triallist will not come back. That means we'll have less people to dance with:tears:

Let's hope they get it right.

Anyone out there from Ceroc....

bigdjiver

29th-November-2003, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Ceroc is obviously going through a period of rapid change. Let's hope they did their Qualitative and Quantitative market research with their target market. And let's hope they also did some targetting research too.

Research will not help them. Ceroc, and its clones, are the bulls-eye at which the competition is aiming. There is likely to be over-competition, because people will be seeking to turn their passion into a business, and willing to suffer short term pain for long term gain. Many venues exist that are not profitable, many more will follow. On the Grand thread there is the statement that it will not be profitable, for example.

Whatever Ceroc & clones do they will be considered to be aiming market centre. The competition will seek to differentiate slightly and aim slightly high or low, left or right, short and long, and in other dimensions.

We are entering the domain of the chaotic, it is unpredictable.

Please no politics, for illustration only:

If Ceroc and clones are centre, two competitors might divide slightly to the left, and slightly to the right. They will pick up all those nearest their position, perhaps 40% each, while Johnny in the middle gets 20%.

Hipsters has gone for higher expertise, and more swing. There is a market gap for lower - no teaching, just MJ, no swing. That is very simplistic, just two dimensions of the conflict.

We are heading into shark vs pirahna territory. Interesting times.

ChrisA

29th-November-2003, 11:07 PM

I think there's very little you can do to improve on the Ceroc formula at beginner level.

Maybe a tiny bit of teaching of resistance in the arms, a tiny bit more on lead/follow.

But mostly, having seen a few other varieties - at beginner level - I think Ceroc have got the formula down to such a fine art that it's the formula that's seen, not the fine art.

Total respect to Ceroc for that.

For the keen ones, it's more complex. Forgive me for saying this yet again, but I would have given up dancing completely had I not tripped over the Jump-n-Jive crowd. For that alone, may their profit/loss account ever be positive.

There's nothing to touch Ceroc at entry level. For this, IMHO, they deserve to do better further up.. but they're not there yet.

Chris

Andy McGregor

30th-November-2003, 02:45 AM

Chris. What are you doing in at 10.07pm on a Saturday night:confused:

ChrisA

30th-November-2003, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Chris. What are you doing in at 10.07pm on a Saturday night:confused: Mostly drinking wine... oh and getting my strength up for a Sunday afternoon Amir/Kate workshop and tea-dance, to be attended by several of our 'sters and other gliterati, :na: :na: :na: :na: :na: :na: :waycool:

Gus

30th-November-2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Research will not help them. Ceroc, and its clones, are the bulls-eye at which the competition is aiming.

Sir ... I think not. If Ceroc was so 'on target' there would not be all the angst that takes place at Franchisee meetings and the whole nation would have been conquered.

Research is precisly what is needed. Its the bedrock of busines and exploiting market opportunities. Unless Ceroc exists as a form of business outside uusal business practice an A level Business Studies student could identify gaping holes in what has happened to date. That is where Ceroc HAS failed. With the likes of Mike A taking the lead (a very astute business man) I would expect things to progress. If you want to see a succesfull 'exploitation' of Ceroc, look at Ceroc Central. Messr Phil Roberts is more likely to join Millionaires row than Skid row.

Mikey

30th-November-2003, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Gus
Sir ... I think not. If Ceroc was so 'on target' there would not be all the angst that takes place at Franchisee meetings and the whole nation would have been conquered.

If you want to see a succesfull 'exploitation' of Ceroc, look at Ceroc Central. Messr Phil Roberts is more likely to join Millionaires row than Skid row.

Phil Roberts deserves all the money he has made.. he has worked bloody hard for a long time to create ceroc central.. and was nearly broke for the first two years of building it up..

Mikey

30th-November-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The world of CEROC changes for EVER?

Reports of sweeping changes across the dance scene are flooding in from far and wide. Non-CTA teachers are teaching for Ceroc, non-Ceroc classes are being approached by Ceroc and joining forces. Where will it all end???

So far we have more quesions than answers. What is the full plan? How will it affect the remaining independents? When will it all happen? Does this mean the end of the 'Bouncy' style of modern jive you see in Ceroc classes or will it take over everywhere?

Lets be clear here,.. Ceroc have the CTA ok.. so, if they agreed to have non ceroc teachers at the venues, does this not cheapen the CTA to some degree.. after all, why bother to pay a couple of grand to train a teacher when they can hire talent elsewhere.. CTA would be kinda redundant in effect.... DOH !!!

Gus

30th-November-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Mikey
Lets be clear here,.. Ceroc have the CTA ok.. so, if they agreed to have non ceroc teachers at the venues, does this not cheapen the CTA to some degree.. after all, why bother to pay a couple of grand to train a teacher when they can hire talent elsewhere.. CTA would be kinda redundant in effect.... DOH !!!

Mikey ... sorry to point this out but I know of more than afew occaisions where Ceroc clubs have had non-CTA teachers teach either classes or workshops! Although the CTA qualification is one to be proud of ... not all CTA teachers are the same level ...

No offence to ANY CTA teacher .... but there are many independant teachers of a similar standard and I would say that many of the A list are NOT Ceroc teachers ...

I think that the future of Ceroc is one of those inponderables ... it can go many differente ways. For a start, Ceroc is not a consistent factor across the UK. In some areas its more open, in oether it simply is non existent (e.g. Wales). For some people Ceroc is simply a night out and simple lessons, for others its a way to learn to dance well. I think one of the most important things to come out of the planning and deliberations currently taking place will be a) How will the current Franchisee structure/obligations change b) How will the relationships with non-Ceroc organisations change.

Oh ... a final point ... you may have a dissimilar view to Andy ... but please remember decorum. By all means promote your own view, but there is rarely need to ridicule the opposing view:innocent:

Mikey

30th-November-2003, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Gus
Mikey ... sorry to point this out but I know of more than afew occaisions where Ceroc clubs have had non-CTA teachers teach either classes or workshops! Although the CTA qualification is one to be proud of ... not all CTA teachers are the same level ...

No offence to ANY CTA teacher .... but there are many independant teachers of a similar standard and I would say that many of the A list are NOT Ceroc teachers ...

I think that the future of Ceroc is one of those inponderables ... it can go many differente ways. For a start, Ceroc is not a consistent factor across the UK. In some areas its more open, in oether it simply is non existent (e.g. Wales). For some people Ceroc is simply a night out and simple lessons, for others its a way to learn to dance well. I think one of the most important things to come out of the planning and deliberations currently taking place will be a) How will the current Franchisee structure/obligations change b) How will the relationships with non-Ceroc organisations change.

Oh ... a final point ... you may have a dissimilar view to Andy ... but please remember decorum. By all means promote your own view, but there is rarely need to ridicule the opposing view:innocent:

I am aware of course of non teachers on occasions, but it's rare.. and not something Ceroc have ever been keen to have happen to often....

Lounge Lizard

30th-November-2003, 08:13 PM

I have my own building company - to make a comparison
The CTA works both way a dancer is trained by Ceroc and in return they commit for three years - I do the same with my apprentices.
I also employ non 'time served' tradesmen or specialist contractors who are good at their job, they do not have the same security and often work for other builders but I employ them when I need them. (Freelance teachers or DJ' are the same IMHO)
My regular team have commitment and security the freelance guys like working for many different builders - the system works.
My workforce is employed on the basis of their skill, manner with the clients, reliability and loyalty.

This is common throughout industry.
What is preventing ceroc from taking this road, perhaps they are.

bigdjiver

30th-November-2003, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Gus
Sir ... I think not. If Ceroc was so 'on target' there would not be all the angst that takes place at Franchisee meetings and the whole nation would have been conquered.

Ceroc and clones have already done a fairly good job of conquering as much of the nation as is possible using the buddy whisper method of promulgation. My attempt at a poll to get some insight into introductions :tears: was an attempt to get a handle on how to get people to bring in more friends. The secret dancing thread was more useful in highlighting why not. This forum is an excellent resource. (Thanks, again, Franck)

Research is precisly what is needed. Its the bedrock of business and exploiting market opportunities. Unless Ceroc exists as a form of business outside uusal business practice an A level Business Studies student could identify gaping holes in what has happened to date.

The Ceroc franchisees are very closely in touch with their market. They may have developed angst not believing what their eyes and ears and pocket books are telling them.

I too think MJ franchising is outside of most business models. I believe that most "A" level students would have sent it into decline, and some marketing organisations would too.

If you want to see a succesfull 'exploitation' of Ceroc, look at Ceroc Central. Messr Phil Roberts is more likely to join Millionaires row than Skid row.

So what is Phil doing that other franchises are not? The research should start there. I think that Ceroc is just about right on target, and perhaps Phil just a little more so.

Will

1st-December-2003, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by AndyMcGregor
Personally, I think Hipsters and all of the other MJ organisations wouldn't have started if James Cronin hadn't started it all. But that's all history.
Totally agree with this, but...

Originally posted by ChrisA
I think there's very little you can do to improve on the Ceroc formula at beginner level.

Maybe a tiny bit of teaching of resistance in the arms, a tiny bit more on lead/follow.

But mostly, having seen a few other varieties - at beginner level - I think Ceroc have got the formula down to such a fine art that it's the formula that's seen, not the fine art.

Total respect to Ceroc for that.

For the keen ones, it's more complex. Forgive me for saying this yet again, but I would have given up dancing completely had I not tripped over the Jump-n-Jive crowd. For that alone, may their profit/loss account ever be positive.

There's nothing to touch Ceroc at entry level. For this, IMHO, they deserve to do better further up.. but they're not there yet.

Chris
I think Chris has pretty much hit the nail on the head with this post.

Whilst Ceroc remains the most effective vehicle for getting new people into dance (which isn't to say that they bring everyone in - far from it), places like Hipsters and others I think can be better at keeping people interested and retaining dancers as they take it to the next level and allow other forms of dance to be fused in with ceroc to keep it interesting.

So whilst Ceroc have played a major part in creating a market for its rivals, I think its also fair to say that many of its rivals play a major part in keeping people in the market. (In my opinion of course - which is based on experience in the London area. People may tell me the dynamic is different elsewhere)

Gus

1st-December-2003, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Will

So whilst Ceroc have played a major part in creating a market for its rivals, I think its also fair to say that many of its rivals play a major part in keeping people in the market. (In my opinion of course - which is based on experience in the London area. People may tell me the dynamic is different elsewhere)

a very astute comment on both parts. Ceroc clubs have not alwys flourished, and sometimes the balance between Ceroc and non-Ceroc ebbs and flows (see the success of the new ceroc Manchester venue as an example of a 'challenge' to the dominance of Blitz in the North).

Also, as you point out, I think the dynamics in London are not replicated elsewhere. To date I believe that LeRoc has been the dominant party in Wales and Bristol area. Will that continue?

bigdjiver

1st-December-2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Will
So whilst Ceroc have played a major part in creating a market for its rivals, I think its also fair to say that many of its rivals play a major part in keeping people in the market. (In my opinion of course - which is based on experience in the London area. People may tell me the dynamic is different elsewhere)

I think we must be careful about thinking in terms of rivalry and competition. It is a good form of thinking to keep an organisation on its toes, but often there is a symbiotic relationship between competitors. You have only to walk around the Portobello Rd in London or Islington to find "competing" atinque shops clustered together. They gain more than they lose from the "competition".

Whereas the local Ceroc venues may lose out to Hipsters (they may not) ones further away will probably benefit from what the visitors there bring back.

bigdjiver

1st-December-2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Gus
a very astute comment on both parts. Ceroc clubs have not alwys flourished, and sometimes the balance between Ceroc and non-Ceroc ebbs and flows (see the success of the new ceroc Manchester venue as an example of a 'challenge' to the dominance of Blitz in the North).

Also, as you point out, I think the dynamics in London are not replicated elsewhere. To date I believe that LeRoc has been the dominant party in Wales and Bristol area. Will that continue?

When it comes to market models I believe that Blitz is a Ceroc clone. I would be interested to know what they do differently. All of the Leroc classes that I have attended have been identical to the Ceroc model, without taxi dancers.

Will

1st-December-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I think we must be careful about thinking in terms of rivalry and competition. It is a good form of thinking to keep an organisation on its toes, but often there is a symbiotic relationship between competitors. You have only to walk around the Portobello Rd in London or Islington to find "competing" atinque shops clustered together. They gain more than they lose from the "competition".

Whereas the local Ceroc venues may lose out to Hipsters (they may not) ones further away will probably benefit from what the visitors there bring back.
Totally agree with you bigdjiver. Bad wording on my part. It is because of this symbiotic relationship that I think it is important not only for Ceroc, but for its RIVALS, that it goes from strength to strength and continues to bring new people into dancing.
:cheers:

Will

1st-December-2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
When it comes to market models I believe that Blitz is a Ceroc clone. I would be interested to know what they do differently. All of the Leroc classes that I have attended have been identical to the Ceroc model, without taxi dancers.
More than that, Blitz actually WAS Ceroc. However Gus does have a point when you look at places like Bristol & Brighton where other companies have done a fantastic job of introducing dancing to so many people.

Lounge Lizard

1st-December-2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
All of the Leroc classes that I have attended have been identical to the Ceroc model, without taxi dancers.
if only they were a good as the ceroc model, frequently the level of teaching at Leroc venues can be very low.
Go to Ceroc and it is like buying a big Mac predictable but reliably the same, Leroc classes can be a 100% lottery, some are very good some should not be teaching.
Leroc federation IMHO has lost it's way and needs to take a leaf out of the ceroc book.
Change it's image and its membership entry criteria
I think a good number of members join as membership includes insurance cover.

I started this thread off as I am a member of the Leroc federation and feel I gain little from it.
This is not the fault of the members running it - like many organisers theirs is a part time involvement with little or no financial gain.
I tried running a Music & Moves workshop providing a playlist of nearly 500 dance tracks in swing, blues, Latin, dance jazz and pop, loads of new moves and advice on legal downloading.
The only real interest was from Ceroc organisers and Blitz, nothing from Leroc

If Ceroc were to offer an affiliate membership or link with ceroc - i.e. independent classes that met the ceroc criteria, but were not official ceroc venues and were not in direct competition with ceroc I would pay my money and join.
I see little gain for my dance club becoming a ceroc venue - with all existing teachers taking CTA plus hand over a large chunk of an established regular income to do pretty much the same teaching etc.
But I would willingly pay a fee to be associated with the ceroc brand name and would put my future teachers through the CTA scheme.
I feel as an independant I have as much to offer ceroc as they have to offer me and both sides would gain.
but
I doubt this would ever be considered by Ceroc and I am probably in a minority with this viewpoint.

Overall Ceroc has got it right, Hipsters has succeeded because they saw the gap in the market picked the best of the best and opened up their Tuesday. I suspect Ceroc will do the same to compete with hipsters but beating the market leader is always hard.
Peter

bigdjiver

1st-December-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
if only they were a good as the ceroc model, frequently the level of teaching at Leroc venues can be very low.

My experience is limited to only five Leroc teachers, and those away from the Bristol heartland. Four of them were not as good as the worst Ceroc teacher I have come across.

But I would willingly pay a fee to be associated with the ceroc brand name and would put my future teachers through the CTA scheme.
I feel as an independant I have as much to offer ceroc as they have to offer me and both sides would gain. but
I doubt this would ever be considered by Ceroc and I am probably in a minority with this viewpoint.
[/B]

It is very tricky, but I would like to see something of this nature, as a step towards making Ceroc an organisation that the independnts wanted to join as full members.

There are many successful parallels in trade organisations, where independent retailers unite under a brand name.

Gus

1st-December-2003, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
When it comes to market models I believe that Blitz is a Ceroc clone. I would be interested to know what they do differently.

As Will says, Blitz was originally Ceroc North but was part of the (in)famous breakaway in the Summer of 99(?).

As to what has changed .. maybe not that much. The Teachers have a lot more scope to bring in new moves, there are advanced lessons on the first (or second) week of the month but, most importantly, they have started to work with most of the organisations in the North ... even Ceroc where politics have allowed. Its probably that last factor that sets Blitz apart from most Ceroc clubs.

As to whether Blitz is better or worse than Ceroc .... can't honestly say that from a punter perspective there is much in it.

Sheepman

5th-December-2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I must be slowing down but I've just done the algebra. Jive Bug have developments coming up and Ceroc have developments coming up. Here is the solution to this simple equation.

. . .

Therefore 4x=4y giving the final soluton x=y

QED Jive Bug=Ceroc

Am I right?:devil:
And we all thought Andy was having a larf!
(Andy, hope you don't mind me removing your mathematical "proof"!)

Jivebug=Ceroc? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=39914&highlight=Jivebug#post39914)

Greg

Chris

5th-December-2003, 04:39 PM

I must admit I didn't know about Jive Bug developments when I made an answer to the question about ceroc take overs. I knew about some previous take overs and a future threatened one (both by one in all other respects outstanding but expanding franchisee in particular), and got the feeling that Mike Ellard was hacked off about it but I haven't spoken to him.
ps I didn't name the franchisee as I don't think it would actually be ethical or even helpful to do so, and still don't think so.

RobC

5th-December-2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Chris
I must admit I didn't know about Jive Bug developments when I made an answer to the question about ceroc take overs. I knew about some previous take overs and a future threatened one (both by one in all other respects outstanding but expanding franchisee in particular), and got the feeling that Mike Ellard was hacked off about it but I haven't spoken to him.
ps I didn't name the franchisee as I don't think it would actually be ethical or even helpful to do so, and still don't think so.

Rather than duplicating the posting, see this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=40077) for the facts about Jive Bug / Ceroc.

Rob

smartie

10th-December-2003, 08:37 PM

In terms of exposure Ceroc has the advantage that it's name is now almost synonymous with "Modern Jive" - in the same way as "Hoover" is arguably synonymous with "vacuum cleaner" (or was until Dyson came along!). If "independents" want to change this that is their responsibility but just copying what Ceroc does best is unlikely to achieve that. In fact, to compete and survive they probably have to be better in one way or another.

I think that the popularity of dance styles is cyclical, always changing, with older forms being "reinvented" and "rediscovered", much like the music they are based on (there are many many reasons for this!), but it is probably fair to say that elitism of any kind is a dead end, especially as it tends to feed on ego as much as ability - unless selection is involved and who wants to go down that route?

Is Ceroc aimed at people in their first 0-2 years of dancing?
Probably, and perhaps that is the reason for it's success - has anyone brought up the possibility that the dance style itself is self-limiting? As far as I remember, James Cronin used to advise people to do lindy hop or salsa if they wanted advanced classes.

But as a lindy hop teacher I would not succeed by simply trying to attract bored modern jivers! Having gone the modern jive-lindy hop route myself I also know how difficult it is to move from modern jive to lindy hop. Lindy hop is a different dance altogether with different interpretation of the music and everyone is a beginner in their first class. Likewise Salsa, although that is probably much closer.

People keep going to modern jive years after they stopped doing the classes and there must be a reason for this. I started Ceroc some 16 years ago and rarely go now having devoted myself to swing and lindy hop, but when I do go I still enjoy it because it is essentially a social activity, as, in my opinion, should be social dancing at ANY level. Elitism can quickly destroy the fragile social structure of an evening, and perhaps here's another reason for Ceroc's success.

If Ceroc gets this right (and I think it does), there's no reason it can't keep attracting dancers of all levels indefinitely. Likewise the independents, and the venues and organisations offering other dance styles.

Nick M

11th-December-2003, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
My experience is limited to only five Leroc teachers, and those away from the Bristol heartland. Four of them were not as good as the worst Ceroc teacher I have come across.

Here in Bristol I dont think we notice the difference. I certainly dont notice any significant difference in teaching standard when I dance away at Ceroc venues.

What we DO lack is the equivalent of Hipsters, or anything regular for the more advanced dancer. And although we can trek into Ealing, its a very long way for a nights dancing.

Nick

Andy McGregor

11th-December-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Nick M
Here in Bristol I dont think we notice the difference. I certainly dont notice any significant difference in teaching standard when I dance away at Ceroc venues.
Nick I think you need to see a teacher on more than one night to judge their ability - we all have off days.

But overall I would say that, in my experience, Ceroc teachers mostly fall mid-way in my league table. They are all competent teachers. And I've only come across 2 independents who were basically hopeless - and you can't imagine they'll last long in the competitive market we're now enjoying as comsumers.
Originally posted by Nick M
What we DO lack is the equivalent of Hipsters, or anything regular for the more advanced dancer. And although we can trek into Ealing, its a very long way for a nights dancing.

Nick We all need a Hipsters around the next corner. The problem as I see it is that there just aren't enough of us keen dancers outside London. And for me that's what Hipsters is about. It's for keen dancers, not expert dancers but people who aspire to becoming experts one day in the distant future and take their dancing quite seriously.

Purely by chance I found myself sat out for half a track (old age) on Tuesday so had an unaccustomed opportunity to watch the dancers. Most of them weren't experts at all, not even close. There are some complete stars dancing at Hipsters. Probably more than you get at other venues. But the majority, probably 80-90% of us are just keen, keen, keen:D :D :D

Sheepman

11th-December-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by smartie
Is Ceroc aimed at people in their first 0-2 years of dancing?
Probably, and perhaps that is the reason for it's success - has anyone brought up the possibility that the dance style itself is self-limiting? I can't agree at all that the dance style is self limiting, in fact I would say it maybe less so than other dance styles, (I am talking MJ here if you feel there is a distinction between that and Ceroc). I danced Lindy for several years before taking up Ceroc, and my MJ (hopefully) incorporates elements of Lindy, Salsa, West Coast Swing, even Tango. Maybe the limits you refer to are more to do with the way Ceroc is taught and run.

Originally posted by smartie
People keep going to modern jive years after they stopped doing the classes and there must be a reason for this. Why do people stop going to the classes? Do they think they can gain nothing from them, or maybe they're just not that keen at dancing, and as Andy says, we know where plenty of the keen dancers go.

I rarely go to Ceroc nowadays, despite dancing 2 or 3 times a week. When I do go to a Ceroc venue, rather than the local ones that I can get to in less than 10 minutes, I will travel up to an hour to ensure a venue where I can empathise with the teachers, franchisee, and music. For me the implication here is that Ceroc is not uniform across the board, and if it was, I would be even less likely to go.

I am not clear what you mean when you are referring to elitism, are you thinking of specific examples? Can you explain?

Greg

bigdjiver

11th-December-2003, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Sheepman
I can't agree at all that the dance style is self limiting, in fact I would say it maybe less so than other dance styles, (I am talking MJ here if you feel there is a distinction between that and Ceroc). I danced Lindy for several years before taking up Ceroc, and my MJ (hopefully) incorporates elements of Lindy, Salsa, West Coast Swing, even Tango. Maybe the limits you refer to are more to do with the way Ceroc is taught and run.

My MJ also has moves pinched from ice dance and things I have never seen anywhere. The limits are a fog shrouded horizon.

Paul F

11th-December-2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And for me that's what Hipsters is about. It's for keen dancers, not expert dancers but people who aspire to becoming experts one day in the distant future and take their dancing quite seriously.

Thats a really good way of putting it. 'Keen' dancers. Most people, who dont go, assume everyone is excellent but keen seems to sum it up much better.

Who said "we are ALL improvers", was it Plato?? :D

smartie

11th-December-2003, 01:09 PM

my MJ (hopefully) incorporates elements of Lindy, Salsa, West Coast Swing, even Tango

...so, it's not MJ. QED!

Besides, these are all totally different styles of dance - and, more importantly, they are expressions of totally different styles of music - if you are a master of all and seek venues where all styles of music are played, fine, otherwise I fail to see your point.

You don't mention the style that I see most influencing MJ at the moment (certainly at competition level) - ballet - perhaps because it is adaptable to all kinds of music.

The lindy hoppers of the 1930s took ideas from all kinds of dance - both European and African. But like most dance forms, lindy hop was inextricably linked to the music. I do not see this link with modern jive and I think it's there that the limitations arise - perhaps modern jive needs to develop links with a particular style of music...

I am not clear what you mean when you are referring to elitism, are you thinking of specific examples? Can you explain?

...anything that creates an impression of "them and us" - be it dance experience, perceived ability, clique-iness - even "keen-ness" when used as a relative measure. I raised the subject of elitism because I think that the lack of it in any form has contributed to Ceroc's success, and the question was "Ceroc or not?".

Sheepman

11th-December-2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by smartie
...so, it's not MJ. QED!
Does this mean you have a definition of MJ, I'm sure it's a topic which has been discussed before, but I'd love to hear it.
(Oh and I forgot to mention the odd bit of Hip Hop, and in my case, I mean odd!) What I dance is certainly NOT salsa, tango, Lindy, sometimes I will mix West Coast and MJ in the same dance, but more likely I will use a West Coast style in MJ. So I can't think what to call it rather than MJ?

Originally posted by smartie
I raised the subject of elitism because I think that the lack of it in any form has contributed to Ceroc's success, and the question was "Ceroc or not?". OK, but I thought you were implying that other dances/organisations were elitist, and I was wondering which these were?

Greg

smartie

11th-December-2003, 03:16 PM

Does this mean you have a definition of MJ, I'm sure it's a topic which has been discussed before, but I'd love to hear it.

No, absolutely the opposite, do you? - I think it's a style in need of a definition. And as I said, usually the music is the basis of that definition.

OK, but I thought you were implying that other dances/organisations were elitist, and I was wondering which these were?

Nope, your interpretation I'm afraid - I was talking more about the fact that sometime around the 2-year mark a lot of people do seem to become a bit cliquey, choosy with whom they dance, and less likely to dance with beginners. You can call it keen-ness to become a better dancer or whatever, but it's generally not good for the growth of the scene. The counter-argument of course is that beginners need to be inspired by experienced dancers. And of course more experienced dancers still need to be inspired...

Minnie M

11th-December-2003, 03:20 PM

PLEASE HELP :confused: :confused:

Why are there TWO threads with the same topic - one in and one out :confused: why is this one active still when the other one is outside :confused:

Sheepman

11th-December-2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by smartie
No, absolutely the opposite, do you? - I think it's a style in need of a definition. And as I said, usually the music is the basis of that definition. No chance of a definition from me, I could ramble on for several pages and not get close. With MJ surely part of the point is that you can do it to all sorts of different music? Although it was the music that got me into Lindy initially, I'm much happier with the mix in MJ, even if I still tend towards the swing music.

Originally posted by smartie
Nope, your interpretation I'm afraid - I was talking more about the fact that sometime around the 2-year mark a lot of people do seem to become a bit cliquey, choosy with whom they dance, and less likely to dance with beginners. You can call it keen-ness to become a better dancer or whatever, but it's generally not good for the growth of the scene. The counter-argument of course is that beginners need to be inspired by experienced dancers. And of course more experienced dancers still need to be inspired... That's why I asked for more detail - I wasn't sure, but maybe you're confusing "Keen-ness" with "Hotshots" (which there is a whole thread on. After all, who doesn't want to dance with all the best dancers? It doesn't necessarily mean that we don't enjoy dancing with beginners immensely, especially when you can see their progression.

Greg

PS Minnie, I think we're still inside, 'cos we are being sensible :really: rational :really: and adult :really: though I think the thread is sufficiently different to that other one outside.

Greg

Franck

11th-December-2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Minnie M
PLEASE HELP :confused: :confused:

Why are there TWO threads with the same topic - one in and one out :confused: why is this one active still when the other one is outside :confused: If you mean this thread "Ceroc or not", which started as a debate over the benefits of Ceroc vs Independents. As opposed to "Ceroc new policy?" which discussed the recent move to Ceroc from an independent :nice:

Both threads have different content, but seem to have merged recently into the same debate: Ceroc vs Hipsters :sad:

This thread however managed to remain (reasonably) civil while the other thread became a 'tad' too agressive so was moved outside.

Sorry about the confusion.

Franck.

michael

11th-December-2003, 05:07 PM

I rather like Andys concept of being keen. I just wonder if it explains things any better though:confused:

Keen to dance, Keen to learn, Keen to become good, Keen to try anything. Keen to experiment. Keen to be social.

In the process of learning and going to dancing at least three times a week (lets call that level keen for now) surely it is likely you will become more selective with who you dance with anyway. It does not mean you refuse to dance with anyone who asks, perhaps you quickly realise that you may not improve or can improve faser if you dance with a more experienced dancer. You learn more when dancing with some experienced dancers while others leave you confused? Do the really mad keen dancers head off to Hipsters cause they know it will stimulate them no end. I know if i lived within 50 miles of the place i would be heading off there and i would not expect to get dancing with the good dancers until i had progressed (hopefully) up the ladder. I see nothing wrong with certain dancers tending to select similiar dancers so long as they also devote a portion of their time to lesser mortals (including beginners). Getting that balance right and still not being viewed by others as too selective must be difficult for those really good dancers.

Are keen dancers more likely to become bored (Thats a good thread starter) than those who go say once or twice a week. Do keen dancers require to be stimulated or they simply drift away or go elsewhere? I think the majority do need this progression or stimulation or they get bored. :cheers:

Sheepman

6th-July-2004, 01:41 PM

Mrs Sheepy picked up a leaflet at a local Ceroc busk yesterday, the first thing that struck her was the headline
Learn Ceroc Jive 'the original...' Salsa that doesn't seem exactly realistic to me, but what caught my attention was the bit on the back that said
Do you feel too old for discos, but love dancing even though you think you've got 2 left feet! Then Ceroc is the dance for you . . .
I've mentioned it before, and I think this confirms that the marketing is definitely not aimed at the under 25s, (I have often heard that is the target market). Surely even the use of the word "discos" implies over 40s? (Except perhaps for the pre teens?)

I presume different franchisees have control over their own marketing and publicity, but is this the confirmation that Ceroc is no longer going after the youngsters?

Greg

TheTramp

6th-July-2004, 01:53 PM

Is it just me who thinks that advertising doesn't really show Ceroc in a good light to any age?? I think the wording on that flyer would have put me off!

And why does it have to 'piggyback' on two other dances - Salsa and Disco???

Trampy

Gus

6th-July-2004, 02:17 PM

I presume different franchisees have control over their own marketing and publicity, but is this the confirmation that Ceroc is no longer going after the youngsters?

Greg

OK ... simple way of settling this. Franck, can you ask the CTA what the average age is of the last 10 teachers to qualify. Who wants to bet its below 30. :devil: Mind you JB must bring the average down even more! :wink:

RobC

6th-July-2004, 02:21 PM

Gordon J Pownall

6th-July-2004, 02:25 PM

Well I haven't qualified yet, but I'm 30 - may be that's my problem :tears:

I qualified X years ago aged eeerrmmmmm...

Put it this way....I was 33 when I qualified......

From being at auditions / teacher training etc, I would that there is an age range from 18 to possibly 30/35...mind you, I think there are cases for both extremes and if we are realistic the average age of a punter is....who knows anywhere from 20 - 80...??? :really:

Time for a poll......

Franck

6th-July-2004, 02:26 PM

OK ... simple way of settling this. Franck, can you ask the CTA what the average age is of the last 10 teachers to qualify. Who wants to bet its below 30. :devil: Mind you JB must bring the average down even more! :wink:Not sure that's relevant as younger teachers appeal as much to the under 30s as they do to the over 30s
I personally make no apologies for recruiting the youngest, best looking, most talented and nicest people possible... :whistle:

This might explain why Ceroc is so popular in Scotland :wink:

TheTramp

6th-July-2004, 02:31 PM

I personally make no apologies for recruiting the youngest, best looking, most talented and nicest people possible... :whistle:
I'm sure that this applies to anyone who you get added to the Ceroc affiliates list Franck!! :clap:

Trampy

Sheepman

6th-July-2004, 02:34 PM

I think the wording on that flyer would have put me off!

The bit that would have REALLY put me off, was a harmless quote, but it was from Jonathan Ross, oh yes, I really want to emulate him! :sick:
But hopefully people will have been attracted by watching the dancers busking, rather than what they read on the leaflet.

Greg

Franck

6th-July-2004, 02:40 PM

I qualified X years ago aged eeerrmmmmm...

Put it this way....I was 33 when I qualified....Well I was 21 :eek:

and I'm glad I qualified so young, I have now been teaching for 12 years and I'm (only) 34... There is a huge advantage to having years of experience combined with (relative) youth... Especially as I don't intend to stop teaching for many years to come :D

Gordon J Pownall

6th-July-2004, 02:48 PM

Well I was 21 :eek:

and I'm glad I qualified so young, I have now been teaching for 12 years and I'm (only) 34... There is a huge advantage to having years of experience combined with (relative) youth... Especially as I don't intend to stop teaching for many years to come :D

Couldn't agree with you more mate, teachers that are easy on the eye counts for a great deal which is obviously why you, myself and Adam all teach modern jive...... :sick: :eek: :what:

- just look after your knees...apart from so much dancing starting so young in life, and your knees constantly being exposed a la kilt wearing....it could result it arthritis later in life.....now come and sit down and wrap up warm...there's a good boy... :wink:...did I tell you about the war..... :sad: :whistle:

Jive Brummie

6th-July-2004, 04:37 PM

Not sure that's relevant as younger teachers appeal as much to the under 30s as they do to the over 30s
I personally make no apologies for recruiting the youngest, best looking, most talented and nicest people possible... :whistle:

This might explain why Ceroc is so popular in Scotland :wink:

...who am I to argue with that!! :wink:

James. x x

p.s. just a quick mention about the advertising of Ceroc. It seems to me, that whoever 'Ceroc flyers' are aimed at, everyone takes notice of them, be it in a good way or a bad one.......no such thing as bad publicity and all that :cool:

TheTramp

6th-July-2004, 04:43 PM

You mean "look at what it says on this flyer, I'd never go to that, and I'll not tell all my friends about it" is not bad publicity???

Trampy

Jive Brummie

6th-July-2004, 04:57 PM

You mean "look at what it says on this flyer, I'd never go to that, and I'll not tell all my friends about it" is not bad publicity???

Trampy

No. What I actually meant, and obviously didn't explain well enough is....

However you feel about the type of advertising issued by Ceroc, be it good or bad, you will at some stage share your thoughts (probably) with others. In turn a wider market is being introduced to this 'thing' called Ceroc.....

Have i made that any clearer, or are you just trying to get me started Mr T...?? :confused:

James.

TheTramp

6th-July-2004, 05:11 PM

spindr

6th-July-2004, 05:38 PM

Mrs Sheepy picked up a leaflet at a local Ceroc busk yesterday...

I'd like to pitch an idea for a new style of club, pitched for the less young generation. Introducing OldRoc(tm):

Yo Daddio, are the little cats and kitties draggin' you down with their total squareness, then truck on down to OldRoc(tm). Our resident gramaphonist will be laying down the coolest high fidelity cuts at a leisurely 33 rpm for the finest in comfy jazz to get your toes tapping. Groovy!

So forget tripping the light fantastic and burning up the dance floor, get your hush puppies down to OldRoc(tm) and put your feet up with the rest of the in crowd.

Complimentary Horlix will be served in the foyer at the end of the evening at 8:30pm.

Jive Brummie

6th-July-2004, 10:37 PM

Sure.....

But if the way you are introduced is negative. And hence, your thoughts are immediately turned negatively about Ceroc, and hence you are probably likely to never go to a Ceroc night, in what way is this not BAD publicity??

Not trying to get you started (would I?? :innocent: ). I just don't agree that there is no such thing as bad publicity. Any publicity that causes negative feelings towards Ceroc, has got to be bad, even if it does actually raise awareness?!?

Trampy

I have to say, I do agree with you............to a certain extent.

However, I would give most people the benefit of the doubt, and (maybe rather foolishly) assume they had a mind of their own and, dare I say, not believe the scandalous tittle tattle peddled by the 'anti-Ceroc' brigade.

Case in point would be H**sters. I'd heard many different things about it, from many different people. But, having a mind of my own, decided to take a look for myself........... Have to be honest, the wife and I didn't exactly have a ball, and if it wasn't for the fab Marc & Rachel and ChrisA & Jayne etc, we'd have gone home early. But, that is our opinion, be it shared by others or not. I'm sure there are a 'few' others out there in cyberspace that may think the same, but who knows. Personally, and I'm obviously biased, but I think Ceroc is fantastic for a multitude of reasons and it does depress me somewhat to read so much slagging on a Ceroc website...surely there must be somebody else out there on the Ceroc Scotland website that thinks Ceroc is great......anyone......anyone :whistle:

James ...(lamb to the slaughter :wink: )

Gus

6th-July-2004, 11:13 PM

...surely there must be somebody else out there on the Ceroc Scotland website that thinks Ceroc is great......anyone......anyone :whistle:

Ceroc is great ... statement of fact. However in some areas it is greater than others. I have found, to date, that Ceroc Scotland is run how Ceroc UK should have alwys been run. Ceroc in NZ is a delight and Ceroc has been a positive influence on the vast majority of the people who contribute and read this forum. HOWEVER ... its always as well to remember that many people have't seen what really happens below the surface and most people here are either too new to the dance scene or unaware of what goes on (with all respect JB, maybe you come into both those categories).

While all is well in Ceroc Scotland, elsewhere in the country dancers are being banned, competiteve pressure is brought to bear, crew are leant on very heavily and franchisees try to put their competitors out of business .... and thats just what I've found out about in the last 6 months :( These 'negative' actions aren't just perpetrated by Ceroc but Ceroc does have a chequered past ... so you have to understand where the animosity comes from. At the same time I can understand any 'reservation' that Ceroc has against some of the breakaway factions, e.g. Le Jive, Mo'Jive, Blitz et al.

I must I get a bit fed up of being labelled along with the 'anti-Ceroc' element. Just because some people know more about what is going on than others and consider some of it worth sharing ... that doesn't neccesarily mean they are anto-Ceroc. I work with (NOT for) Blitz and I'm equally happy to point out their failings. Can we just accept that some people have a view to present rather than they being automatically being labelled as someone who wishes to see the great Ceroc edifice brought crashing down?

Jive Brummie

7th-July-2004, 09:40 AM

Ceroc is great ... statement of fact. However in some areas it is greater than others. I have found, to date, that Ceroc Scotland is run how Ceroc UK should have alwys been run. Ceroc in NZ is a delight and Ceroc has been a positive influence on the vast majority of the people who contribute and read this forum. HOWEVER ... its always as well to remember that many people have't seen what really happens below the surface and most people here are either too new to the dance scene or unaware of what goes on (with all respect JB, maybe you come into both those categories).

While all is well in Ceroc Scotland, elsewhere in the country dancers are being banned, competiteve pressure is brought to bear, crew are leant on very heavily and franchisees try to put their competitors out of business .... and thats just what I've found out about in the last 6 months :( These 'negative' actions aren't just perpetrated by Ceroc but Ceroc does have a chequered past ... so you have to understand where the animosity comes from. At the same time I can understand any 'reservation' that Ceroc has against some of the breakaway factions, e.g. Le Jive, Mo'Jive, Blitz et al.

I must I get a bit fed up of being labelled along with the 'anti-Ceroc' element. Just because some people know more about what is going on than others and consider some of it worth sharing ... that doesn't neccesarily mean they are anto-Ceroc. I work with (NOT for) Blitz and I'm equally happy to point out their failings. Can we just accept that some people have a view to present rather than they being automatically being labelled as someone who wishes to see the great Ceroc edifice brought crashing down?

...err, yeah, why not :hug:

James.

p.s. Waldo studios (Ceroc) still have a picture of you on their wall Gus!! It's in the toilet however, but at least it's still there, oh and you're in good company aswell, It's next to one of Franck and Jean :D