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ChrisA
4th-October-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
We need to make sure that Hipsters does not become so 'cool' that it becomes a 'hotshots only' venue. In my opinion this would be the kiss of death. These 'hotshots' are so far up their backsides already it would only take the draught from a carelessly opened window to make them disappear up it altogether

Great post, Andy. I don't reckon it's in danger of becoming a "hotshots only" venue. (Well it can't while I go there, let's face it...)

In any case, the coolest of the people there are the likes of Nigel and Nina, Andy, Rena, Tor... and they are all so grounded (and dance with everyone) that the atmosphere should stay good while they're still connected with it.

Talking of cool, did anyone else there last night think it was too cold in there? The gale coming in through the windows by the bar was freezing... so I shut them. No one opened them again, so maybe it wasn't just me sickening for something.

It was a great night, though I was expecting far more people. This meant that there was room to move, despite a couple of the hotshots :)..

A dance with Nina was the high spot for me... what a goddess. I must be improving just a little bit, cos I'm not quite so terrified of asking her for a dance any more.

ttfn,
Chris

Andy McGregor
4th-October-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Great post, Andy. I don't reckon it's in danger of becoming a "hotshots only" venue. (Well it can't while I go there, let's face it...)

In any case, the coolest of the people there are the likes of Nigel and Nina, Andy, Rena, Tor... and they are all so grounded (and dance with everyone) that the atmosphere should stay good while they're still connected with it.
Chris

The people that you listed aren't 'hotshot dancers', they're great dancers. I produced stages of dance list somewhere on this Forum. I've updated it a bit, it goes something like this;

1. Beginning dancers. Can walk, but not when chewing gum. Knows nothing. Dances with anyone.
2. Intermediate dancers. Can walk and chew gum. Knows everything. Too good to dance with beginners.
3. Hotshot dancers. Will only do advanced moves and then only to favourite tracks. Too good to dance with anyone.
4. Great dancers. Makes beginners moves look great. Dances to everything. Especially with beginners.


Originally posted by ChrisA
A dance with Nina was the high spot for me... what a goddess. I must be improving just a little bit, cos I'm not quite so terrified of asking her for a dance any more.Chris

If you aren't scared of Nina you must be very brave. I did the Ceroc champs with her and as I got to know her better I just found new reasons to be very afraid - and some of them had nothing to do with dancing:wink: :devil:

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Boomer
As for my evening, I just had a runin with a bloody 'Hotshot', and during the class:angry:
More detail required !!!!

Andy McGregor
5th-November-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Boomer
As for my evening, I just had a runin with a bloody 'Hotshot', and during the class:angry: Ho-hum, one day I'll be a god :nice:

There's two ways those 'Hotshot' dancers can go. They can become 'Great Dancers' or they can stay as they are - and it's up to us to put them on the path to enlightenment. Pain and reward are recognised training methods - hurt them 'til they're nice:devil:

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There's two ways those 'Hotshot' dancers can go. They can become 'Great Dancers' or they can stay as they are
I can think of a few current hotshots... do you know any that did go on to become great?

Chris

Pammy
5th-November-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I can think of a few current hotshots... do you know any that did go on to become great?

Yes :tears:

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
Yes :tears:
Huh? Why :tears: ???

I would have thought that a hotshot graduating to great would be a good thing, warranting maybe a :cheers:

:confused: :confused:

Pammy
5th-November-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Huh? Why :tears: ???

I would have thought that a hotshot graduating to great would be a good thing, warranting maybe a :cheers:

:confused: :confused:

Sorry, I'm confused. Isn't a hot-shot the dancer who won't lower himself to dance with us minions?

:confused:

Boomer
5th-November-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
Sorry, I'm confused. Isn't a hot-shot the dancer who won't lower himself to dance with us minions?

:confused:

Mr McGregster, you do explain things like this so well, would you do the honours when you get a chance? I thank you.

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
Sorry, I'm confused. Isn't a hot-shot the dancer who won't lower himself to dance with us minions?

:confused:
Exactly. So a "hotshot" that graduated to "great" would be a good thing, n'est-ce pas?

Andy wrote


There's two ways those 'Hotshot' dancers can go. They can become 'Great Dancers' or they can stay as they are
I was just wondering about this, hence my question...


I can think of a few current hotshots... do you know any that did go on to become great?

Clear as mud??

Pammy
5th-November-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Clear as mud??

Ah, clearer

I know some hotshots who are great dancers, but still hot shots. The people I consider as hot shots normally are great dancers, but unfortunately try the old *I don't recognise you* or *I don't think I'll speak to you THIS week* look etc. That's not to say I don't think they're great dancers; they're fab and I enjoy every second I get on the floor with them, but as people, they're not very kind...

I much prefer making friends in there and making time for those friends...

I understand why they don't want to dance with me as they get nothing out of it, but being that they know me as a person I find it upsetting and personally offensive that they don't want to dance with me just because they know it would really please me.

*rant over*

PS Do you think we should have *out with the hot-shots* on our t-shirts? :wink:

Boomer
5th-November-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Pammy


PS Do you think we should have *out with the hot-shots* on our t-shirts? :wink:

Nah, payback needs to be nurtured. One day I'll be a decent dancer (I've set my mind to it for some reason) and that little list of 'Hotshots' (who shall reamin nameless) will come in handy for 'sorry, can't dance right now, my bunions are laying up'. A simple revenge, but enough for me....yep, I'm still miffed, but now its focused...soryy guys, just ignore me.

P.S On a lighter note, Divissima, thanks for the help during the class with that 'un-natural turn', couldn't have done it with out ya :cheers: :hug: You sure you want 2 dances next time :what: ?

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
I understand why they don't want to dance with me as they get nothing out of it

No.

It is because they're hotshots that they get nothing out of it, not because they are fab dancers and therefore have nothing to learn.

My guess is that they have a lot more to learn than it appears when you watch them dancing with one of their own small circle of favourites - you only see them dancing in their preferred style, with their preferred partners.

Well BFD, I say. So bloody what if someone can win a comp, look flash doing a showcase, look superior just with the partners they like.

The real greats can do all that AND make a beginner feel great - and everything in between.

Personally, I'd rather make a beginner feel great than win a comp. I'll work my way up from there :)

Chris

Pammy
5th-November-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Well BFD, I say. So bloody what if someone can win a comp, look flash doing a showcase, look superior just with the partners they like.

and I thought we weren't naming names! :wink:

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
and I thought we weren't naming names! :wink:
I have to confess I did have certain specifics in mind :wink: :wink: :waycool:

But no names.

Chris

Lory
5th-November-2003, 12:57 PM
I have a perfect example of what I call a HOTSHOT, (one was there last night, so i'm whispering)
He's someone know KNOWS he a good dancer, only dances with people he conciders are WORTHY of dancing with him and will make HIM look good

They usually dance by the stage, or door, (for maximum audience, adoration)

They say Hello when it suits them and ONLY when it suits them.

They take up a lot of space and anyone who happens to get in their way, shouldn't be at the venue in the first place!

If you do actually get a dance with them, they make u feel under extreme pressure, to perform and get the moves right, so as not to **** them off

After, u must bow to them and tell them how wonderful they are and thank them most grasciously for lowering them selves!:devil:

Chris
5th-November-2003, 12:58 PM
Surely the point is to make *every* dance really special, whether it is with a beginner, intermediate or advanced dancer . . .

Experiencing a magical moment in partner dancing is only magical when it's shared at least between those two dancers I think, so I'm not too concerned when I'm dancing with someone if they looked 'hot' with someone else - I want to connect with the person I'm dancing with - to an extent it's like a private conversation and a stunning way of getting to know someone - it develops with mutual interest, respect, and I try to put what I've heard/seen before totally to one side and go on a new journey with that person for the space of a couple of songs!
:cheers:

Andy McGregor
5th-November-2003, 01:02 PM
Hotshot Dancers

Firstly, let's clearly define what a 'hotshot' dancer is. Flippantly, I have said that they're 'too good to dance with anyone'. This of course is poetic licence. The do dance with people, but there's only a few people that they consider worthy, let's call this their 'A list'. When us mere mortals ask them for a dance they might even say 'yes'. But they will give you the impression that they're bored or would rather be somewhere else, they might even glance over your shoulder to a watching 'A-list' person and raise their eyebrows. And they never, ever, EVER voluntarily ask a non 'A-list' dancer for a dance and wouldn't be seen dead dancing with a beginner (maybe if they were very sexy but that isn't about dancing, it's about mating!). And the 'dancing with beginners' point is what, more than anything else, separates 'Hotshots' from 'Great Dancers'.

Most 'Hotshot' dancers are usually very good dancers, and they know it. Although there are some people who exhibit 'Hotshot' behaviour traits who aren't really that good. Which brings me to the question 'How do people get the idea that they're good and decide they're 'Hotshots' and that they'll only dance with good dancers'. And the answer is that we tell them. Let's stop telling those 'Hotshots' that they're fantastic and placing them on a pedestal then maybe they'll start behaving like mortals. We, the Proletariat, have created a monster race of 'Hotshots' and it's up to us to start the cull - we should commence a campaign of faint praise by telling them they're quite good and giving them tips on their stance, spinning, hand-hold or something to dent their ego. Look at The Tramp, he was a 'Hotshot' when we first met, now, after a few conversations with me, he thinks of himself as 'just a beginner':waycool:


Originally posted by Pammy
PS Do you think we should have *out with the hot-shots* on our t-shirts? :wink:

Maybe we should start a charity with the slogan 'Adopt a Hotshot'.

p.s. I like the idea of white shirts. If ChrisA wanted to have a go with the dark shirt transfers on black shirts he could always be the 'negative' version of our positive print. Chris mate, my advice is use cheap shirts because the transfers won't last long.

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
'How do people get the idea that they're good and decide they're 'Hotshots' and that they'll only dance with good dancers'. And the answer is that we tell them. Let's stop telling those 'Hotshots' that they're fantastic and placing them on a pedestal then maybe they'll start behaving like mortals.

Well said, sir.

Chris

Boomer
5th-November-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Hotshot Dancers

...We, the Proletariat, have created a monster race of 'Hotshots' and it's up to us to start the cull - we should commence a campaign of faint praise by telling them they're quite good and giving them tips on their stance, spinning, hand-hold or something to dent their ego...

Mr McGregor, you are awful..but I like you :devil: This may well be put into action :rofl: A newby going 'hey :grin: that wasn't bad! You been doing this long then?'

Pammy, like the logo :cheers:

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Boomer
Mr McGregor, you are awful..but I like you :devil: This may well be put into action :rofl: A newby going 'hey :grin: that wasn't bad! You been doing this long then?'

It wouldn't work. They would just look all superior at you.

Maybe instead, we could persuade one of the really good followers to dance with them, but just slightly off the beat. :devil: :devil:

Helen comes to mind for this great mission, as does the Divster.

Chris

Boomer
5th-November-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
It wouldn't work. They would just look all superior at you.

Maybe instead, we could persuade one of the really good followers to dance with them, but just slightly off the beat. :devil: :devil:

Helen comes to mind for this great mission, as does the Divster.

Chris

Ah, but the ego is a fragile thing my friend, and 4 or 5 different people going 'hey...', would soon have an effect....like the other idea as well...a two-pronged attack has merits, flank 'em I say..flank 'em all :grin:

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Boomer
Ah, but the ego is a fragile thing my friend, and 4 or 5 different people going 'hey...', would soon have an effect....like the other idea as well...a two-pronged attack has merits, flank 'em I say..flank 'em all :grin:
Mine might be, yours might be...

But the hotshots have been doing ego workouts for a long time. If you said they looked good, however ironically, it would just make them worse, cos they wouldn't spot the irony.

Not worth the effort, in truth.

Chris

Pammy
5th-November-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Maybe instead, we could persuade one of the really good followers to dance with them, but just slightly off the beat. :devil: :devil:

Helen comes to mind for this great mission, as does the Divster.


Ah, so Lory, Lily and I are left out in the rain :tears:

Thanks!!

Least we know we're not in your a list... Hold on, that's a hot-shot statement isn't it :wink:

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
The ChristerA wrote: Uh-oh - you're in trouble now, ChrisA!! :really: I think we'd need all the good 'sters in on the plan so our target doesn't just assume we're having an off night!

Hope the record is straight now (see other post). No way was I intending to imply any A list or B list.

But you're right... it would need to be a concerted attack to make any dent in the hotshot ego.

Chris

Lory
5th-November-2003, 04:03 PM
Did anyone notice the man at Hipsters last night, picking people out to be in a scene from 'Will and Grace' ?

Minnie M
5th-November-2003, 06:17 PM
I am very confused :confused: who are these so called Hipster Hotshots - if you can't name them what do they look like and who do they dance with ????

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
I am very confused :confused: who are these so called Hipster Hotshots - if you can't name them what do they look like and who do they dance with ????
They look great on the dancefloor.

They dance mostly with other hotshots.

Does that help any? :waycool:

[oh, and check with the Pamster, but at a guess they would never be seen to grince]

Minnie M
5th-November-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
They look great on the dancefloor.............

:confused: so do you Chris, I am sure lady forumites would agree to this :confused: does that make you a hotshot ?

And what about DavidB ? I have now renamed him King Cool, whereas Nigel is known as SuperGod, and what about Viktor, he definitely looks good on the dance floor :drool: but I wouldn't call them Hotshots.

Has this 'Hotshot' label come from Andy Mc's paranoiner (can't spell :blush: )

ChrisA
5th-November-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
:confused: so do you Chris, I am sure lady forumites would agree to this :confused: does that make you a hotshot ?

And what about DavidB ? I have now renamed him King Cool, whereas Nigel is known as SuperGod, and what about Viktor, he definitely looks good on the dance floor :drool: but I wouldn't call them Hotshots.

Has this 'Hotshot' label come from Andy Mc's paranoiner (can't spell :blush: )

None of these people is even remotely a hotshot, despite being great dancers and looking great on the dancefloor.

And if I ever start to display any hotshot tendencies (I hope there is no danger of that) I am relying on folk to give me a good slapping.

Andy's given the best recent definition of the term, I wouldn't want to go further than that. It may even be that some people could get perceived unfairly as a hotshot on some occasions but not others. My experience of the lady hotshots is that I am not in the very small group of people worth dancing with, and that if I have the cheek to ask them, they are doing me a favour in looking bored enough during the dance to ensure I don't do it again. I can't speak for the girls, but the impression I get is that their experience of the hotshot guys is similar.

Anyway, I'd better get cracking... there's somewhere I have be in a very little while. ;) ;)

Chris

Minnie M
5th-November-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
My experience of the lady hotshots is that I am not in the very small group of people worth dancing with, and that if I have the cheek to ask them, they are doing me a favour in looking bored enough during the dance to ensure I don't do it again. I can't speak for the girls, but the impression I get is that their experience of the hotshot guys is similar.


Hotshots ............... yes I agree with the Hotshot Hipster Ladies, I heard this before and a dear friend experienced dancing with one on his first visit to Hipsters and hasn't been back since.

It may be that the hotshot men haven't asked me to dance that I haven't noticed them, I certainly have been lucky enough to have danced with all the GOOD dancers at Hipsters tho :D - thinking about it they are all forumites, incl. silent members dancing teeth (Viktor) and Nigel (possibly not registered)


:tears: Quite jealous ..... haven't made it to Hipsters this week, I hate driving to London by myself :sad: and Helen (who I travel with) is busy this week (Helen is a great dancer, grab a dance with her fellas) - did you miss me ??

Gus
5th-November-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
My experience of the lady hotshots is that I am not in the very small group of people worth dancing with, and that if I have the cheek to ask them, they are doing me a favour in looking bored enough during the dance to ensure I don't do it again. Chris

Have I mis-interpreted or are we seeing the most unwelcome return of the Ceroc Snob:tears: :tears: I thought these odious creatures had been hunted down and exterminated.

Minnie M
5th-November-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Have I mis-interpreted or are we seeing the most unwelcome return of the Ceroc Snob:tears: :tears: I thought these odious creatures had been hunted down and exterminated.

There you see - you guys are far too modest - these ceroc snobs have abandoned The Casbah as they now know the best dancers are at Hipsters :cheers:

I have plans to spike their water - or - even better, follow them to the 'Ladies' and put 'itchy powder' on the toilet seats - that should liven up their dancing :devil:

Andy McGregor
6th-November-2003, 02:02 PM
HIPSTERS WEDNESDAYS

At present, the Hipsters Wednesday is our secret grotto, or Shangri-la, where the 'sters go just like our own 'elephant's graveyard'. Once word gets out it will change. Developers will put in hi-rise blocks, private beaches and performing seals. And crowds of tourists will follow them. I've already seen people 'surveying' Tuesdays for something - and quite a few flapping flippers in the fast stuff:wink:

We should consider this time on a Wednesday as a fine vintage wine that we have just a few cases of. We know that there's a limited supply but all we can do is enjoy it while it lasts. But because it's so fine we, rightly, share it. And that means it won't last quite so long. One day we'll be at another night and we'll say 'this has something of a Hipsters Wednesday 2003 about it, don't you think?'

There's now quite a few people on here that are agreeing with me about Wednesday being a better night for modern jive. Long may it last:D Word is out, let's not succumb to the temptation to keep our grotto secret, that way lies stagnation and boredom. Let's tell everyone to join us:waycool:


HOTSHOTS

So, Gus recalls the 'Ceroc Snob'. It's not just my paranoia, although I do have an allergy due to sensitization early in my dancing career - more of that later. What Gus is telling us is that 'Hotshots' are nothing new. Gus thought they'd been exterminated but it seems they just went to ground, probably deep caves in the desert. Rather than eradication, which is tempting, we need to convert them to being nice to beginners but it'll take time and persistence:devil:

I'm sure that Minnie M can remember what it was like up to 6 years ago on a Tuesday in Brighton. It was packed with a huge clique of Hotshots. I can remember I visited twice for my Hotshot vaccinations, was turned down quite a bit, sneered at for being a beginner, looked bored at etc - and that was in spite of there being a beginners class on that night. If I hadn't been thick skinned (or just plain thick...) I would have given up dancing and tried something else. Instead, I just changed my night. The Tuesdays in Brighton are nothing like that now. They're far, far worse because they're run by Jeff Jasper who told me to 'Go F**k Yourself' when I asked if he was going to ban smoking from his dances at the Hove Centre. Anyone who goes to his Tuesdays now must be especially thick skinned... ..I think I even spotted a dancing rhinoceros:devil:


NEW SPECIES EMERGES

Reading through this thread, I think I've seen the emergence of the 'Hotshot Groupie'. These people follow the great and the good (not just 'Hotshots') from venue to venue and also wouldn't ever be seen dancing with beginners. They are what the 'Hotshots' feed their egos on. And because to name something is to know it better I've recognised a bit of the 'Hotshot Groupie' in my own dancing personalilty. I already dance with beginners and other intermediates quite a lot, but I'm going to do it more to resist the glamour of joining the queue to dance with the stars.

And if you want to measure yourself to see if you're something of a 'Hotshot Groupie' ask youself the following questions.

1. How many beginners were there the last time I went dancing and what percentage of them did I dance with?

2. How many intermediate dancers were there and what percentage of them did I dance with?

3. How many tracks did I dance with each great dancer present on average?

If you're a 'Hotshot Groupie' your answers would be something like

1. 0-10%
2. 0-20%
3. 2+ times each, but couldn't get to Nigel for the crowds of panting women.

And why am I saying this stuff (apart for my bid to become ODA?)? We depend on a stream of beginners coming through to have those special dancing moments when everything goes right. If we don't dance with beginners the dance scene as we know it will fade away. We all need to do our bit, don't just leave it to me, Pammy and ChrisA (if you're not on this list don't take it personally, I just picked a sort of Adam and Eve couple:devil:(I needed a serpent smilie here))

p.s. Gus, is there room for 2 in your office? :devil: :hug: :D

Geordieed
6th-November-2003, 02:37 PM
:kiss: Good words Andy about dancing with all levels. I was wasted last night so did not dance that much but did do the class at Hipsters as usual and really enjoyed the variation of women in the rows.

ChrisA
6th-November-2003, 03:42 PM
Phew. Thanks to Franck for sorting out the confusion... here's what I posted earlier....

Last night there was an incident, hopefully unnoticed by most, following which I am quite sure I will have been labelled as a hotshot by a few ladies whom I hadn't seen at H before.

I regret it greatly, and feel the need for a catharsis of the soul, hence this post...

At the table in the far corner, were some ladies I hadn't seen before, so in my usual, hopefully welcoming manner, I went up and asked one of them to dance.

It started well, but it rapidly became apparent that she was not only a serious hand-bouncer but a bit of a yanker as well, relying totally on me to stop her disappearing into the wild blue yonder at every step back.

I should add that she was not a beginner - I always take the view that they deserve special consideration, so please read what follows with that in mind.

Now after my night of being yanked (sic) on Tuesday, I just couldn't face it again, so a few times I found myself simply unprepared to risk injury and exhaustion by accommodating totally to all of this - and I confess I broke my own golden rule about striving at all times to ensure the lady feels good.

And I let go. Several times, in fact. And on the third time, she stomped off the dance floor.

I followed, apologised, and persuaded her to at least finish off the dance... she rejoined me saying "well put some effort into it this time then" :really:

The rest of the dance went better, or so it seemed to me, but then at the end it was a case of the old "turn one's back suddenly and walk away without a glance" move, to communicate how much of a complete git I was in her eyes.

Anyway, it didn't ruin my night - far from it - since although I would normally go the second mile, I did feel I had at least one or two mitigating circumstances, and I was able to see the "well put some effort in" comment as quite amusing, given the amount of effort I always put in....

But it feels bad nonetheless, and I'm sorry. It also occurs to me that maybe sometimes, folk get wrongly labelled as hotshots when not all the circumstances are known. If I'm guilty of that, then sorry again.

Chris

Lory
6th-November-2003, 04:03 PM
Never mind Chris, we still luv ya! :hug:

Divissima
6th-November-2003, 04:22 PM
Bottom line - you are not obliged to let someone hurt you (whether or not you are carrying an existing injury!:really: ). Did you explain to her that you had a sore shoulder and ask her to tone down the hand-bounce? If you did and she still gave you the stroppy treatment then that's unacceptable. Even if you didn't tell her, you shouldn't beat yourself up about it (you have her for that!). I sometimes have to face this situation in reverse (because I have a recurring problem with my right shoulder) - and sometimes I have to stop the guy on the dance floor and explain. They are normally very understanding and make an effort to accommodate the problem. It is hard, though, because sometimes if they aren't very experienced or confident dancers they seem to take it quite personally.

CJ
6th-November-2003, 04:32 PM
The least you could do is name her:D

ChrisA
6th-November-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
The least you could do is name her:D
I wouldn't, of course :blush:

But I'd never seen her before.

Chris

Lory
6th-November-2003, 05:07 PM
After reading Andy Mcgregors and Chris A's thoughts on Hotshots, it made me think. ..................
Last night, I was at another Venue, one where I'm fairly well known, (not for my brilliant dancing skills, I might add, just cos I've been going there for a while now)
It wasn't a very busy night and as I was walking off the dance floor, I noticed a guy I hadn't seen before, made eye contact and gestured would he like to dance. To my embarrassment, he looked very shocked but pleased, anyway, it became evident that he'd been coming for about 10 weeks but only stayed to the freestyle for the past 6 weeks and apparently he'd noticed me 'every week'!
I asked him why he hadn't asked me to dance b4, he said, 'you always seem so busy and I didn't think you'd like to dance with a beginner!
I've always hoped that I would be seen as nothing else but friendly and very approachable, seems as though we all have a lesson to learn!
It made me think back to my school days, we all knew the people in our class and the ones who were in the years above us, we looked up to them in awe, we thought they knew everything BUT did they notice us? not a chance! Its not that they were being horrible, its just that they didn't notice us!
Its the same with Ceroc, the freestyle is only 1 or 2hours long, and if you've been a regular a venue for a time, you get to know people, make friendships, most of us DON'T make a conscience decision to exclude people, we just haven't taken the time to 'notice them.'
I for one will try harder!:blush:

ChrisA
6th-November-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
I told her she would be better off on a Wednesday :cheers:

Yeah, but not at Hipsters, hopefully :what: :what:

[smacks wrist, D,G & R]

The yank ( ;) ) was exceptionally well disguised... unbelievably floppy arms until the last microsecond, then, powwww (ouchhhh)

At least normally you get a warning from the vice like grip :(

Chris

Andy McGregor
7th-November-2003, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by Sheepman
Andy your "hotshot Groupie" test doesn't work for Hippies on a Tuesday, when was the last time you saw a beginner there, and are we all "Hotshots" just for going on a Tuesday? :tears:
(Actually there was one beginner there last Tuesday, I had one dance with her, and I think both Chris and I suffered the same yanking.) I told her she would be better off on a Wednesday :cheers:

It seems that you and ChrisA have danced with 100% of the beginners on that particular Tuesday. That means you are not 'Hotshot Groupies'. And if there are no beginners you can not be criticised for not dancing with them:waycool:

You and ChrisA are not the people who sping to mind when it comes to not dancing with beginners. There are many other dancers who don't want to be seen looking bad with a beginner - think 'Hotshot' and 'Hotshot Groupie'. Who springs to mind. Don't answer that question on this thread, they know who they are and will hopefully correct this short-sighted behaviour. Meanwhile we'll be out there dancing with absoluetely everyone irrespective of talent:waycool:

Lounge Lizard
7th-November-2003, 09:50 AM
[i]There are many other dancers who don't want to be seen looking bad with a beginner - think 'Hotshot' and 'Hotshot Groupie'. Who springs to mind. Don't answer that question on this thread, they know who they are and will hopefully correct this short-sighted behaviour. Meanwhile we'll be out there dancing with absolutely everyone irrespective of talent:waycool: Who are these guys/girls (and are they aware of their hot shot status - I think not) I dance at lots of venues and think I am quite observant of the dancers around me (you may recall I wrote the 'dance for him - her' storyline).
Are we criticising dancers for enjoying a dance with their friends?
I don't expect anyone to name and shame but your impression of Hipsters seems different to mine
Last time I was there I took a friend, we practiced/danced together most of the night, and when I was not dancing with her I selected my friends to dance with (Lynda, Lily, Pammy etc.)
So have I now been elevated to the level of Hotshot?:sad:

DavidB
7th-November-2003, 10:19 AM
oops

ChrisA
7th-November-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
So have I now been elevated to the level of Hotshot?:sad:
I don't think a non-hotshot can become one in one night :D

Chris

Andy McGregor
7th-November-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
[B] Are we criticising dancers for enjoying a dance with their friends?


No, we are criticising dancers for not dancing with beginners:wink: If we don't do our bit and dance with them the classes we love will eventually fail because there's nobody new coming through. Where will those Lyndas, Pammys, Lilys come from if we don't encourage them?


Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
[B]Last time I was there I took a friend, we practiced/danced together most of the night, and when I was not dancing with her I selected my friends to dance with (Lynda, Lily, Pammy etc.)


I remember that young, slim, attractive blonde partner. I'm criticising you because I never got a look in with her:tears: But I did dance with the partners you listed AND still got around the beginners and other dancers I didn't know as well. Some of them were great dancers, one in particular was a real star - and some of them weren't. But I had a great deal of fun with all of them:D :D


Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
[B] So have I now been elevated to the level of Hotshot?:sad:

You need to work much harder to earn this title. One night of selfishness isn't enough. I've seen you dancing with loads of beginners - if you want to be a 'Hotshot' that's got to stop straight away:devil:



Originally posted by DavidB
oops

:rofl:

TheTramp
7th-November-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
oops Not quite up to your usual level of postings, O Oracle :na:

Steve

Andy McGregor
7th-November-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Not quite up to your usual level of postings, O Oracle :na:

Steve

DavidB's 'Oops' is, for me the best posting of the week. Far better than any missive I've come up with so far. It shows a real willingness to 'know thyself' and a keeness to change.

I must admit that I didn't think of DavidB as one of the people who needed an 'Oops' as he's one of the nicest people on the dance scene.

Anyone else got an 'Oops' they'd like to share with the group?:wink:



p.s. Oops

Chris
7th-November-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Are we criticising dancers for enjoying a dance with their friends? I don't expect anyone to name and shame but your impression of Hipsters seems different to mine. Last time I was there I took a friend, we practiced/danced together most of the night, and when I was not dancing with her I selected my friends to dance with (Lynda, Lily, Pammy etc.)
So have I now been elevated to the level of Hotshot?:sad:
I think Lizard's got a point, and sometimes however hard anyone tries, someone, somewhere, may be disappointed. There are people who always used to ask me for a dance who I miss dancing with, but I suspect it is because they feel comfy dancing with their regular friends - and trying to get round all your friends some nights can be hard! (If I was cynical I would say they had promoted themselves to 'hotshot' status but I hope that's not the case and know it probably isn't even if it seems like it.)

It can be a bit frustrating if you go to a venue where the person you've got you're eye on doesn't give you a dance. I think there's times for being selfish (dancing with who you want) and times for being courteous (asking at least a couple of folk you don't know for a dance) but, even then, you'll never please all the people all the time. It can be hard not to offend inadvertantly. When I was teaching recently I made a point of saying I hoped I got asked for lots of dances, and I did, but I still saved the last few records for friends I hardly ever see and who I wanted to spend time with dancing before they had to leave (including my amazing demo Helen, who I think is a much better dancer than me, and who had travelled quite a way).

The other thing I notice is that many top dancers - who are in the celestial spheres way above me - are just as shy as I am, or as beginners are. I will ask them, but try to avoid 'using them as a mannequin' - it's a social experience, and as people we are all equal - if I can't dance at her level then I at least try to give her a nice three minutes (or hopefully six!)

People who have regular partners (one special one or even several that they dance with often and so know all their special spectacular flourishes) can feel a bit on the spot when they dance with someone new. And for many people the image of dancing well (to the level they are able to dance with their regular partners for instance) acts as a reassuring buffer for their shyness.

Others may have different experiences. I don't care anymore whether I 'look good' on the dance floor - I just want to make each dance a special and lovely experience for each person I dance with. If we can make the dancing fab that's great, but if we can't, I don't like them any the less, and hope they feel the same towards me! In the long run, the shared good will is sometimes the creative basis on which a dancefloor communication can take place, make both partners feel relaxed, and free of pressure, and let the dancing flow.
:nice: :nice: :cheers:

DavidB
7th-November-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Not quite up to your usual level of postings The original was posted by accident - I aimed for 'Preview' and hit 'Submit'. It wasn't that funny, so I edited it.

But two comments and a :rofl: for a single word must make it my most efficient post ever.

David

Chris
7th-November-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
But two comments and a :rofl: for a single word must make it my most efficient post ever.


ROFL :rofl: :rofl:
very efficient indeed!!

btw what were you going to amend the 'Oops' to then . . . ?

Boomer
7th-November-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Chris
... I don't care anymore whether I 'look good' on the dance floor - I just want to make each dance a special and lovely experience for each person I dance with. If we can make the dancing fab that's great, but if we can't, I don't like them any the less, and hope they feel the same towards me! ...

And that my friend is the key. Sometimes sticking with the people you know, or simply going to any venue on a certain night is not tantamount to bring a ‘Hotshot’. I think one of the tests the McGregster missed is ‘If a newby walks up to you and asks for a dance will you a) Give a lovely smile and say ‘you betcha baby’, then try to ensure you both have a good /3/4 minutes, or b) would you say ‘Bleh!’ turn to a fellow snob and discuss the merits of the ‘Bongo Pongo’?

At the end of the day, if at any point one is worried about being a ‘Hotshot’, then I think its safe to say that in all likelihood you’re one of the good guys. :nice:

TheTramp
7th-November-2003, 11:48 AM
[ ODA ON]
I'm a 'hotshot'.

I pay my money to go to dances for my own enjoyment. I'm not there as a paid teacher - where I may have obligations as part of that role to dance with the beginners, and encourage them to come back, because that's what I'm being paid to do. If you want to pay me to go to a dance, then I may consider dancing with a few other people.

There aren't enough dances in one night to have as many dances as I want, with my own friends anyway. Why should I spoil my own night by dancing with people that I don't know/don't want to dance with. I have no interest in widening my own circle of friends. I have enough already thank you very much. I also have no interest in bringing new people into dancing. I probably wouldn't dance with them anyway, so why bother. That's what the teachers are there for.

I pay (by buying drinks) to go to a pub, to talk to my friends. Nobody makes me talk to other people there, in an attempt to get them to come back to the same pub next week. I also sometimes pay to go bowling with friends - the management at the bowling alley are quite happy that I only bowl in my own lane, with my own friends. Why should my dancing hobby be any different to my other hobbies?

What right do you have to attach a stigma to me, while I'm doing something in my own time, out of my own wallet, that I want to do, in the way I want to do it?

I'm a 'hotshot' and proud of it.
[ODA OFF]

Well, just thought that someone should maybe give a response :rolleyes:

[Edit] Please note that these are NOT my own views. I was merely proposing a possible defence for 'hotshots'.

Steve

Forte
7th-November-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
[ ODA ON]
I'm a 'hotshot'.

IWhat right do you have to attach a stigma to me, while I'm doing something in my own time, out of my own wallet, that I want to do, in the way I want to do it?

I'm a 'hotshot' and proud of it.
[ODA OFF]

Well, just thought that someone should maybe give a response :rolleyes:

Steve


Wee bit grumpy today, Steve? :rofl: You are not a hotshot in that sense because I have seen you make many a beginners' night by asking her to dance...you are a nice guy and just trying to hide it! :hug:

TheTramp
7th-November-2003, 12:08 PM
I didn't say that I subscribe to what I've written.

It was my ODA - official devil's advocate role, where I thought that someone should defend the 'hotshots'. After all, everyone is innocent until proven guilty :D

Steve

Pammy
7th-November-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I have no interest in widening my own circle of friends. I have enough already thank you very much.

:confused: Fair enough....

Not the angle I'd come from though...

TheTramp
7th-November-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
:confused: Fair enough....

Not the angle I'd come from though... Like I said. It wasn't my own views. Just a possible defence for 'hotshots'. Please note the [ODA ON] tag....

Steve

foxylady
7th-November-2003, 12:23 PM
It not about whether you only dance with your own group of friends or not, its about what your attitude is like when you stray outside your comfort zone.

Two examples that happened to me this week ;

At the jive bar on Wed I danced with a 'hotshot'. When I asked him he agreed to dance but extremely reluctantly. He deliberately led me to a part of the floor he would be less easily seen, looked bored for three quarters of the dance, & wouldn't smile. It was a great dance, and we probably looked very good, but I was simply the stooge to enable him to show off (once he realised I could follow what he led).

Last night at said jive bar (why do I go there its so dire !! - oh I know - its where my friends go !) I danced with a guy who in the class had a fabulous sense of rhythm - I hadn't seen him before. It turned out he was just learning, and he apologised all the way through the dance for not knowing enough moves, and confessed to being worried about dancing with me . But we had a laugh, smiled alot and had a very enjoyable dance.

I know which guy I would like to dance with again !!


And as for Steve's ODA comments - whilst I take some of his points, jive (in its many incarnations) is a 'social' dance. The whole ethos of most venues is that people should mix, and alot of the teaches actively encourage this... So why the Hotshots think they are exempt from accepted social behaviour is anyones guess....:what:

Pammy
7th-November-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
It not about whether you only dance with your own group of friends or not, its about what your attitude is like when you stray outside your comfort zone.

I also feel it's a case of "you're not allowed in" at times. I've been to venues where I've seen a group of hotshots that I know of pretty well, and see most weeks, but I wouldn't dare put my stuff at their table; instead I'd sit on my own in the other corner, as their reactions when dancing with me are such that it's obvious they wouldn't want me intruding on their little group, and thus becoming a friend of theirs.

Odd as I'd love to sit and mix, not because they are hotshots, but because they are people that you see on a regular basis so it just makes sense. Why keep people out on the edge. Why not shout across Hey Pammy, over here, pull up a seat etc. (not just to me, but to anyone they know) It's weird...

It's almost like royalty; do you think they expect red carpet around their table? :wink:

Andy McGregor
7th-November-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
[ ODA ON]I'm a 'hotshot'.

..snip...

I'm a 'hotshot' and proud of it.
[ODA OFF]
Steve

Brilliant defence. That legal training must be working. And the best part is that you didn't believe a word of it - you'll make a brilliant lawyer:waycool:

Andy McGregor
7th-November-2003, 12:54 PM
"Hey Pammy, we're over here, why don't you join us".

Unspoken message - you're a great dancer now so we like you, don't sit/dance with those plebs... ..but you will have to give up the glitter and wear black and white shoes, oh, and you must give up that ridiculous smiling, it's not really cool...

TheTramp
7th-November-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TheTramp
[ ODA ON]I'm a 'hotshot'.

..snip...

I'm a 'hotshot' and proud of it.
[ODA OFF]
Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Brilliant defence. That legal training must be working. And the best part is that you didn't believe a word of it - you'll make a brilliant lawyer Thanks Andy :D

Steve

Pammy
7th-November-2003, 01:13 PM
I'm currently wearing my glittery surf babe top so I guess I'm already out of the running.

Also, if I don't smile, I look miserable; ask Boomer; oh and if he's not smiling, he looks even more miserable than me :wink: If that's possible! :confused:

We are not sad, honest, we're just giving our facial muscles a chance to relax...

Boomer
7th-November-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
...ask Boomer; oh and if he's not smiling, he looks even more miserable than me :wink: If that's possible! :confused:


Try 'he looks like a moody psychopath' :sad: Just a big softy really.

But I'll dance with anyone!

ChrisA
7th-November-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
When I asked him he agreed to dance but extremely reluctantly. He deliberately led me to a part of the floor he would be less easily seen, looked bored for three quarters of the dance, & wouldn't smile. It was a great dance, and we probably looked very good, but I was simply the stooge to enable him to show off (once he realised I could follow what he led).

This is the cardinal sin IMHO.

They should just say "no" if they fit the mould Steve describes.

He's right of course - no one has any _right_ to insist anyone dances with anyone else, but dancing with someone and making them suffer by making it perfectly apparent they are bored stiff during the dance is terrible behaviour.

Let them stick in their little clique if that's what they've paid their money to do, but if they come out, no matter how reluctantly, they should abide by standards of acceptable behaviour.

I think what I might do is ask a particular hotshot to dance next time I get the opportunity - I have one in mind that gave me the "god I'm so bored" treatment last time I danced with her - and if she does it again, I'll ask her if she really is bored.

Chris

Pammy
7th-November-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Boomer
But I'll dance with anyone!

even YOUR hotshot?

TheTramp
7th-November-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
They should just say "no" if they fit the mould Steve describes.

He's right of course Damn.

That's the nicest thing that anyone has ever said to me.

Although, with 2700+ posts, you'd think that it'd have to happen sometime :wink:

Steve

Boomer
7th-November-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
... When I asked him he agreed to dance but extremely reluctantly. He deliberately led me to a part of the floor he would be less easily seen, looked bored for three quarters of the dance, & wouldn't smile. It was a great dance, and we probably looked very good, but I was simply the stooge to enable him to show off (once he realised I could follow what he led).

Didn't see the 'you asking him' bit, but for what its worth he was noticed (not just by me), and the consensus was 'for gods sake, if you're gonna dance have fun and smile!. A few adjectives swiftly followed, but being the gentleman I am, I will not swear in front of ladies. innocent:


Last night at said jive bar (why do I go there its so dire !! - oh I know - its where my friends go !)

It is a shame, the place has everything (for me) except location location location. The 'hall' does no justice to the teachers or the us :sad: I guess its hard to find decent, affordable venues in London.

Dreadful Scathe
7th-November-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA

Let them stick in their little clique if that's what they've paid their money to do, but if they come out, no matter how reluctantly, they should abide by standards of acceptable behaviour.


I disagree. Some people have no idea of standards of acceptable behaviour. Every social situation always includes the odd few who arent any good in social situations - thats society for ya - full of freaks and aberations :) So who are we to tell them what to do? If you don't like dancing with someone just don't, and, if they look really bored - you may be too polite to walk off the floor but you don't have to dance with them again. Just rejoice in the fact that not everyone is the same, and wander away shaking your head slowly at their social ineptness.

Personally I only go jive dancing because I like drinking bottled water. Or do I. Who knows. Each to his own though :).

Pammy
7th-November-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Personally I only go jive dancing because I like drinking bottled water.

You would be wasted if this was true; I can speak for all the *southerners* when I say that DS is a mighty fine dancer :hug:

I agree though, it's not ones place to tell other people who they should act in there. It they can't see it, leave em to it.

ChrisA
7th-November-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I disagree. Some people have no idea of standards of acceptable behaviour. Every social situation always includes the odd few who arent any good in social situations - thats society for ya - full of freaks and aberations :) So who are we to tell them what to do? If you don't like dancing with someone just don't, and, if they look really bored - you may be too polite to walk off the floor but you don't have to dance with them again. Just rejoice in the fact that not everyone is the same, and wander away shaking your head slowly at their social ineptness.

I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about.

I'm just saying that it is unkind for a brilliant dancer, when asked to dance by a lesser mortal, to spend the dance making the lesser mortal feel like a piece of stepped-on chewing gum.

A bit of kindness costs very little, and if the brilliant dancer can't afford even that, well, he or she must be poor indeed.

Chris

Dance Demon
7th-November-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
"Hey Pammy, we're over here, why don't you join us".

Unspoken message - you're a great dancer now so we like you, don't sit/dance with those plebs... ..but you will have to give up the glitter and wear black and white shoes, oh, and you must give up that ridiculous smiling, it's not really cool...

Errrr.............what's the problem with black & white shoes?.....
I don't consider myself a hotshot...but I do wear black & whites sometimes, mainly because I like them, they are comfy, and really nice to dance in. On the other hand I don't own a pair of brightly coloured strappy trousers, mainly because i'm maybe a bit long in the tooth for that particular fashion statement. I also tend not to wear womens clothing:wink:.....I think the point I'm trying to make is that wearing black & whites doesn't make you a hotshot, any more than wearing the most up to date trendy gear.....so your comment was maybe a wee tad flippant Andy:wink:

LilyB
7th-November-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
....... and if she does it again, I'll ask her if she really is bored.

Chris
Go on - I dare you!!!!! :devil: :D

I'll be watching from the sidelines. Mop & bucket ready to clean up the blood & gore. :rofl:

LilyB

TheTramp
7th-November-2003, 06:28 PM
Ooh....

Go on then. I'm dying to know. Who is she?? :D

Steve

Andy McGregor
7th-November-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Dance Demon
Errrr.............what's the problem with black & white shoes?.....
I don't consider myself a hotshot...but I do wear black & whites sometimes, mainly because I like them, they are comfy, and really nice to dance in. On the other hand I don't own a pair of brightly coloured strappy trousers, mainly because i'm maybe a bit long in the tooth for that particular fashion statement. I also tend not to wear womens clothing:wink:.....I think the point I'm trying to make is that wearing black & whites doesn't make you a hotshot, any more than wearing the most up to date trendy gear.....so your comment was maybe a wee tad flippant Andy:wink:

Sorry, I was going for COMPLETELY flippant:wink:

I, too, own a pair of black and white shoes. Although I don't find them more or less comfy than shoes of any other colour.

I was really commenting on Pammy's fascination with glittery shoes, the mention of B&Ws was merely a side-swipe:devil:

I agree about those strappy trouser things. Girls can probably get away with them up to middle age but guys shouldn't wear them if they're over 21 (IMHO).

You're also right that B&Ws don't make you a hotshot. But a lot of hotshots do wear them. The key indicator for Hotshots is prima-donna behaviour, especially not dancing with beginners.

Dance Demon
7th-November-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Sorry, I was going for COMPLETELY flippant:wink:


yep....that figures....:wink: :cheers:

Dreadful Scathe
7th-November-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about.


you said...


Originally posted by ChrisA

they should abide by standards of acceptable behaviour


I disagreed. Why should we assume they even know what these standards are ? why should we have to tell them how to behave ? more to the point, why do we care? :)

ChrisA
7th-November-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

I disagreed. Why should we assume they even know what these standards are ? why should we have to tell them how to behave ? more to the point, why do we care? :)
I see.

I meant no more than _if_ they come out of their clique _and_ deign to dance with a lesser mortal, they shouldn't do the "oh god I'm so bored dancing with such a peasant as you" thing.

I wouldn't dream of _telling_ them how to behave - it's not my business. I'm just expressing a view of the demoralising effect it can have when they do behave like that, and if dancers get demoralised because of it, that's why I care.

Chris

ChrisA
7th-November-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
Go on - I dare you!!!!! :devil: :D

I might well... cos I might have completely misinterpreted.

I've been accused of looking too serious once or twice... and all that was going on was I was concentrating too much...

So who am I to make assumptions about what's going on in someone's head?

Chris

ChrisA
8th-November-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
Go on - I dare you!!!!! :devil: :D

Well I danced with her last night.

Once or twice she showed hints that she might have been enjoying it, so I said nowt :waycool:

Chris

Lory
8th-November-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Daisy

I've also had my ego dented on a lot of occasions when I've made a B-line for a guy, he's seen me coming and turns his back on me.........mental note.....don't bother again!

Me too!



and a guy who made the excuse that he had a bad knee and the next time I looked he was smoozing with someone else....Hum!
:what:

AND I had exactly the same thing happen to me at HIPSTERS, thIS man said he'd hurt his shoulder, then 2mins later I saw him dancing with someone else. I couldn't help my self but I just had to say something....after the dance finished, I said, I see IT GOT BETTER!
I think he was duly embarrassed!



What I won't do is force myself on anyone who obviously doesn't want to dance with me anymore. Why let someone else spoil my evening by making ME feel like s..t.

:sick:
Quite agree! THEIR LOSS! :rofl:

LilyB
8th-November-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Well I danced with her last night. And I wasn't even there to sweep up the mess afterwards! :tears:


Once or twice she showed hints that she might have been enjoying it, so I said nowt :waycool:

Chris Aahh! It looks as if my cleaning-up services wasn't required after all. :wink: Maybe you've misjudged her, eh? Misinterpreting a look of concentration for a look of boredom? Or perhaps you've won her over with a scintillating display of sharp moves, graceful manoeuvres and brilliant musicality? :really: :devil:

LilyB

ChrisA
8th-November-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
Maybe you've misjudged her, eh? Misinterpreting a look of concentration for a look of boredom?

This is entirely possible, and a possibility I've alluded to a couple of times now. I've been wondering recently whether this 'hotshots' problem is really as bad as I've supposed, or whether indeed some of it is a projection of one's own insecurities on the dance floor.

If it seems as if I'm backpedalling, well, maybe I am.


Or perhaps you've won her over with a scintillating display of sharp moves, graceful manoeuvres and brilliant musicality? :really: :devil:
Now this option is the one I prefer, no matter how unlikely it may be. I'll go with that :D :D

Chris

Chris
8th-November-2003, 07:08 PM
Both in this thread and in the 'Intimidation' thread there's obviously some concern - but I don't think it's enough to simply argue that hotshots don't exist (or aren't on the forum, or can argue their way out of a bucket) or that if such people spoil a dance night in some way for you that the answer is to say, well, 'they are such b***tards, why would I want to dance with them anyway??'
:mad:
Pretending the phenomenon doesn't exist won't help IMHO. Sometimes, it's only a perceived one - they're not really 'hotshots' they are just out with their friends or too shy / too busy to mingle much beyond certain borders. Sometimes there may be certain misconceptions they have about people outside their 'circle'.
:(
But what to do about it? It's easier for me, going as a visitor, say to Casbah or Hipsters or wherever as I'm not aware of who's meant to be who and I see everyone as the same. But if I'm dancing in Scotland I will often acutely feel that the Scottish 'hotshots' wouldn't notice if I had a coronary at the next table, and they are most skilled at bodyswerving or superficial politeness if I nail them down (especially when they are in a group).

This is a common social phenomena, not limited to ceroc. Add to the problem that people have to rebuild their egos as they learn to dance and it easily gets complicated!

I could say to myself, they are horrible, stuck up, full of politics or whatever - as soon as you get on that line of thought it suddenly becomes very easy to justify it further and further. But we end up feeling very disgruntled and haven't made any headway towards solving the problem.

So I remind myself, my first duty to someone who I might want to dance with (which includes everyone there) is to make them feel safe, unstressed, comfortable and at ease, and try to apply that to the difficult group in the same way I apply it to everyone at the dance night. This has two effects. Firstly, it might, with time, convince them I'm really a nice person and worthy of their genuine consideration. But secondly (and more importantly perhaps) it increases harmonious feeelings within myself, I'm being true to myself (as that's how I genuinely feel towards everyone there, including my friends, people I don't know, beginners, experienced dancers, other guys, staff), and it's a feeling that people can relate to. If it doesn't affect the people who are a bit hostile, I still haven't lost, I've applied a more scientific method than deciding they are horrible (they're people too), I'm better placed to get on with them if it turns out there was a misunderstanding, and I'm not being 'reactive' - in other words I can plan to have a good evening and enjoy dancing, try to make dancing enjoyable for others, and leave the door open whether or not people feel able to bond with me.
:nice:
(This has gone on a bit, but I hope it helps, and just for the record, anyone, literally, anyone, is always welcome to ask me for a dance.)
:cheers:

LilyB
9th-November-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Bottom line: if you really don't want to dance with someone, soften the blow somehow if they ask - because it costs nothing to be nice. If you do dance with them, engage with them for that three minute relationship, because that's nice too.

Chris
How do you "soften the blow" without being rude or hurtful? I have never turned a man down for a dance - it is simply something I do not do. That is not to say I am happy dancing with anyone. In particular, I detest dancing with pervs and guys who toss me around without warning or permission. When I see these guys coming, I do my best to avoid them, and if I cannot avoid them, I dance in defensive mode - learnt over the years but definitely not fun. However I always manage to smile & engage them for the duration of the dance (as suggested by ChrisA) and thank them at the end. The problem then is (and it is a BIG problem for me) that these guys take my friendly behaviour toward them as as a sign that I enjoy dancing with them & it encourages them to ask me again & again! They know that unlike some other women, I will not turn them down.

The same applies, but to a lesser degree, to guys who give me a hard time on the dance floor ie. by yanking & pulling me (so that I go flying) or by throwing me into dangerous drops without a thought for my safety (I have had sooo many narrow escapes...). What is a girl supposed to do, eh? :sad:

Lily

ChrisA
9th-November-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
How do you "soften the blow" without being rude or hurtful? I have never turned a man down for a dance - it is simply something I do not do.

Well, for instance, sometimes I've danced so many consecutive tracks I'm getting quite dehydrated. If I dance another one, I know I'm going to start feeling bad, so I might say "no, I must have a drink/towel down", because if I carry on, I know I'll be crap.

Then later, I'll do my best to find the person, and ask them to dance.


In particular, I detest dancing with pervs and guys who toss me around without warning or permission. When I see these guys coming, I do my best to avoid them ..... However I always manage to smile & engage them for the duration of the dance (as suggested by ChrisA) and thank them at the end.

This isn't what I meant. I was talking about an inexperienced dancer that asks a really good one to dance, not someone who is unpleasant or dangerous....

For the record:

... Pervs (the unpleasant kind, the ones that are definitely creepy, even after giving them the benefit of the doubt) should definitely be turned down, every time. Period. No exceptions. :devil: :devil: They are not like normal people, and do not respond to hints.

Ladies should also not tolerate being yanked around. For several reasons:

(a) Because they are not as strong as the guys and so can't protect themselves against injury as easily

(b) Because the guys may never learn not to be yankers unless they are told that's what they're doing. If you just smile and say thank you, they will be no closer to understanding.

(c) Because you shouldn't feel obliged to endure suffering on the dancefloor.

Yankers can develop into really careful non-yankers (guess how I know :blush: ), so deserve a little help if they respond to the feedback. Whereas pervs/creepies should be shunned :really:

Chris

bigdjiver
9th-November-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
How do you "soften the blow" without being rude or hurtful? I have never turned a man down for a dance - it is simply something I do not do. That is not to say I am happy dancing with anyone. In particular, I detest dancing with pervs and guys who toss me around without warning or permission. When I see these guys coming, I do my best to avoid them, and if I cannot avoid them, I dance in defensive mode - learnt over the years but definitely not fun. However I always manage to smile & engage them for the duration of the dance (as suggested by ChrisA) and thank them at the end. The problem then is (and it is a BIG problem for me) that these guys take my friendly behaviour toward them as as a sign that I enjoy dancing with them & it encourages them to ask me again & again! They know that unlike some other women, I will not turn them down.

The same applies, but to a lesser degree, to guys who give me a hard time on the dance floor ie. by yanking & pulling me (so that I go flying) or by throwing me into dangerous drops without a thought for my safety (I have had sooo many narrow escapes...). What is a girl supposed to do, eh? :sad:

Lily

It seems to me that you are just building up problems for yourself and other ladies. Guys have got to learn to take "No thank you." without any reason given.

I hate the "alms to a leper" dances, where the lady obviously did not want to dance with me and dances as far away from me mentally as she can. I try to dance for my partners enjoyment. I hate even more the idea that I might be being deluded by skillful actresses.

Is it not possible that you are depriving another lady who might enjoy his company, however dangerous, obnoxious or pervy he appears to you?

Andy McGregor
10th-November-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
What is a girl supposed to do, eh? :sad:

Lily

Having observed you (while dancing with you) I've noticed 'a girl is supposed to do' a hand signal. It's a sort of vertical left hand with the wrist turned out - in a hand version of the good toes (vs naughty toes) from ballet:devil: :devil: :devil:

p.s. Be warned, I can be you now, Lily. Now all I need to do is lose 4 stone in weight and David and I can win an airsteps competition together:waycool:

p.p.s. Being the new improved Lily doesnt' mean I've become a 'Hotshot', I'm still going to dance with beginners - I'm just going to show them the 'Lily Hand':wink:

p.p.p.s. Oh all right, 5 stone...

LilyB
10th-November-2003, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
It seems to me that you are just building up problems for yourself and other ladies. Guys have got to learn to take "No thank you." without any reason given.

I hate the "alms to a leper" dances, where the lady obviously did not want to dance with me and dances as far away from me mentally as she can. I try to dance for my partners enjoyment. I hate even more the idea that I might be being deluded by skillful actresses.

Is it not possible that you are depriving another lady who might enjoy his company, however dangerous, obnoxious or pervy he appears to you?
Well, that's his loss then. If he feels so strongly about being deprived of a dance from another woman who might otherwise have enjoyed his company more, then he should have made the effort to ascertain from the woman he asks whether or not she genuinely wants to dance with him or is merely being polite. He can then clarify to her that his offer of a dance is only conditional upon her answer being the former. :what: :really: :rolleyes:

It is my experience (in more than 10 years of dancing modern jive) that most men - and women - would prefer their partners to smile & look at them rather than to look bored & disinterested, even at the cost of "being deluded by skillful actresses/actors".

LilyB

Will
10th-November-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Ladies should also not tolerate being yanked around. For several reasons:

(a) Because they are not as strong as the guys and so can't protect themselves against injury as easily

(b) Because the guys may never learn not to be yankers unless they are told that's what they're doing. If you just smile and say thank you, they will be no closer to understanding.

(c) Because you shouldn't feel obliged to endure suffering on the dancefloor.


Chris

I'm sorry to have to correct you Chris, but you cannot possibly apply point (a) to Lily. :wink:

Andy McGregor
10th-November-2003, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by Will
I'm sorry to have to correct you Chris, but you cannot possibly apply point (a) to Lily. :wink:

You're scaring me now...

Exactly how strong is Lily?

DavidB
10th-November-2003, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by Will
I'm sorry to have to correct you Chris, but you cannot possibly apply point (a) {can't protect themselves } to Lily. Will - can you tell me where you buy your earplugs from?

LilyB
10th-November-2003, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by Will
I'm sorry to have to correct you Chris, but you cannot possibly apply point (a) to Lily. :wink: Wot, lil' ol' me - 5'2" and seven & a half stone? :innocent:

Wait..... it's full moon tonight..... ooooh, I feel a change coming on..... Oh no!....Aaargh!!! I turning, I'm turning....into........???!!! :what: :what: :what: (Answers on a postcard please) :devil:

Will
10th-November-2003, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
Will - can you tell me where you buy your earplugs from?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

DavidB
10th-November-2003, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
Wait..... it's full moon tonight..... ooooh, I feel a change coming on..... Oh no!....Aaargh!!! I turning, I'm turning....into........???!!! :what: :what: :what: A lawyer

Will
10th-November-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
Wot, lil' ol' me - 5'2" and seven & a half stone? :innocent:

Wait..... it's full moon tonight..... ooooh, I feel a change coming on..... Oh no!....Aaargh!!! I turning, I'm turning....into........???!!! :what: :what: :what: (Answers on a postcard please)

.......The Tramp? Now his comment about being a male version of you is starting to scare me!

Will
10th-November-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
A lawyer

Ok, I'll admit, yours was funnier. :cheers:

TheTramp
10th-November-2003, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Will
.......The Tramp? Now his comment about being a male version of you is starting to scare me! Please leave me out of this one!!!

Steve

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Will
I'm sorry to have to correct you Chris, but you cannot possibly apply point (a) to Lily. :wink:
I know that. I left that hook in, just out of interest to see who would pick me up on it.

I was betting on Andy McG or the Trampster...

Wrong again :tears: :tears:

Chris

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
...most men - and women - would prefer their partners to smile & look at them rather than to look bored & disinterested, even at the cost of "being deluded by skillful actresses/actors".

Not me. If a dance with someone that wants to dance with me is not available, my order of preference is as follows:

1. Turn me down, please
2. Look bored.
3. Pretend to enjoy it.

I mean it. Being deluded by a skillful actress really is my least favoured option. Give me the truth, no matter how painful. I can improve far more if I get the truth.

But then, maybe it's also important for the lady to judge when someone can take the truth.

There's a subtlety in this, though... when I talked about "engaging" for that 3 minute relationship, I was thinking of the way a "great" can engage with a beginner in such as way as to inspire, and additionally actually enjoy coming down a few dozen levels, albeit briefly, in a way that connects with the struggles experienced by a beginner.

I had some lovely dances last night with a very good dancer, who seems to like dancing with me. She seemed to enjoy one or two ideas I had about what to do with the music, but additionally felt free enough to lead me quite firmly into some breaks she could obviously sense I was about to miss - to the great benefit of the dance.

It felt lovely to be _engaged with_ like that... it was one of those magical moments, and a very equal partnership.

Chris

Jon L
10th-November-2003, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA

(b) Because the guys may never learn not to be yankers unless they are told that's what they're doing. If you just smile and say thank you, they will be no closer to understanding.

(c) Because you shouldn't feel obliged to endure suffering on the dancefloor.

Yankers can develop into really careful non-yankers (guess how I know :blush: ), so deserve a little help if they respond to the feedback. Whereas pervs/creepies should be shunned :really:

Chris

This of course does not apply if you come from the USA :rofl:
(another awful Jon L joke - although this one I heard from Robert Cordoba)

Seriously as I have mentioned before - because even though I am a shorter guy I am 75 Kg approximately and quite strong. In my beginner days I had a strong lead and I am simply not aware that I am quite strong - so because ceroc teaches me to lead firmly, it was too much. It does help if the lady tells the man though

bigdjiver
10th-November-2003, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
Well, that's his loss then. If he feels so strongly about being deprived of a dance from another woman who might otherwise have enjoyed his company more, then he should have made the effort to ascertain from the woman he asks whether or not she genuinely wants to dance with him or is merely being polite. He can then clarify to her that his offer of a dance is only conditional upon her answer being the former. :what: :really: :rolleyes:

It is my experience (in more than 10 years of dancing modern jive) that most men - and women - would prefer their partners to smile & look at them rather than to look bored & disinterested, even at the cost of "being deluded by skillful actresses/actors".

LilyB

I would prefer the ladies not to dance with me if they do not want to.

My most common mode of asking is "Would you like to try this dance?" I suspect that the wording makes absolutely no difference to the answer, but I try.

How does the guy ensure that the lady genuinely want to try a dance with him? I genuinely want to know.

Should I accept that the number of dances a night that I would get if I just stood there and waited to be asked was the correct measure?

I did wonder if I was just getting dances out of politeness, and put this to the ego crunching test a long time ago. It was 9.45 before I was asked. It could have been never, and it really would have destroyed my wafer thin confidence (at that time).

She said "do you remember me?" I did not. She said "You gave me my first freestyle dance. I really enjoyed it. I am a teacher now". A bad night turned good instantly.

Now I look for the 9.45 ladies, (long before 9.45) and try to make their evening, and if I do, I make mine.

here are ladies that would like to dance with me, there are many more that would rather not. I would like to be able to tell the difference.

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 02:56 AM
it was one of those magical moments
Talking about magical moments, my best ever "All that Jazz" with the delectable Pamster. Thanks hon :kiss:

Chris

Jon L
10th-November-2003, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
Will - can you tell me where you buy your earplugs from?


Why are you we being rude to poor Lily she is so nice.... :confused:

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by Jon L
Why are you we being rude to poor Lily she is so nice.... :confused:
David is the only one being rude to Lily. And she is in a position to beat him to a pulp, so at least it's a fair fight :waycool: :devil: :D :D

She's not just nice... She's totally fab :)

And much less scary, now that I have failed to totally disgrace myself dancing with her over the last few.

Or so I believe :wink: :wink: :devil: :devil:

Chris

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
How does the guy ensure that the lady genuinely want to try a dance with him? I genuinely want to know.

Just as in the rest of life... you have to read her mind.

If you can't, that's not her fault :waycool: :wink: :nice: :really: :what:

bigdjiver
10th-November-2003, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Just as in the rest of life... you have to read her mind.

If you can't, that's not her fault :waycool: :wink: :nice: :really: :what:

I did think of asking some why they preferred dancing with the younger, handsomer, richer, better dancers, but they would probably just evade the question.

Minnie M
10th-November-2003, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by Lory
I have a perfect example of what I call a HOTSHOT, (one was there last night, so i'm whispering)
He's someone know KNOWS he a good dancer, only dances with people he conciders are WORTHY of dancing with him and will make HIM look good

They usually dance by the stage, or door, (for maximum audience, adoration)

They say Hello when it suits them and ONLY when it suits them.

They take up a lot of space and anyone who happens to get in their way, shouldn't be at the venue in the first place!

If you do actually get a dance with them, they make u feel under extreme pressure, to perform and get the moves right, so as not to **** them off

After, u must bow to them and tell them how wonderful they are and thank them most grasciously for lowering them selves!:devil:

Thank you Lori - I must be thick. but I was confused by the 'Hotshot' label, I KNOW there are a few female hotshots that go to Hipsters, but I am not sure of who the men are ? Gus called them Ceroc Snobs, which I do understand and know of many who frequent the Casbah. Ladies PLEASE help me here, do we have many Hotshot men at Hipsters ? I only know of one, he used to dance with me when he ONLY did modern jive, now is can dance lindy, he barely talks to me and NEVER dances with me BUT does still modern jive with ceroc snobs aka Hotshots

Minnie M
10th-November-2003, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by Lory
......... thIS man said he'd hurt his shoulder, then 2mins later I saw him dancing with someone else. I couldn't help my self but I just had to say something....after the dance finished, I said, I see IT GOT BETTER!
I think he was duly embarrassed! Last March at the Blackpool competition, I was sitting with a group of friends who are VERY well known, and VERY good dancers, and was watching ?????? dancing with them all - thought WOW I would love to dance with him - I asked him, he looked down his nose and said "NO too tired", 30 secs later a pretty young thing asked him and off he went. He did NOT feel remorse at all and still continued to ask all my friends - BUT I felt so awfull I had to go for a walk outside as I felt I wanted to cry :tears: I know what I look like and how old I am and that all comes home to you when you are so cruely rejected or ignored :tears:

PS: I do know of a reformed Hotshot (and currently a forumite member/teacher/showcase winner/great dancer) he was once very very particular of who he danced with, but a few of his friends pointed this out to him and now he dances with all and even ASKS many ladies to dance :cheers: SO THERE IS LIFE AFTER HOTSHOTS ! he even smiles now when he dances and look like he is enjoying it !!!!!:cheers:

Andy McGregor
10th-November-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
He did NOT feel remorse at all and still continued to ask all my friends - BUT I felt so awfull I had to go for a walk outside as I felt I wanted to cry :tears: I know what I look like and how old I am and that all comes home to you when you are so cruely rejected or ignored :tears::

I was sitting with you and he didn't ask me either:tears:

And I was much prettier than ALL of the women sat at our table - well I was until I changed out of my pink wig, fishnets and leotard.:devil:

Pammy
10th-November-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Talking about magical moments, my best ever "All that Jazz" with the delectable Pamster. Thanks hon :kiss:

Yes Yes, that was fun. I just love that song and we really seemed to grab the musicality of it with both hands; thanks mate, it was great! What a fab night it was too. I had a real laugh.

Andy in another shirt, with a *galaxy* effect to it; come to think of it Chris, wasn't that when you asked Helen to go outside with you and see the stars? Upon reflection, perhaps that was actually "Come outside with ME and I'll show YOU the 'Sters?!? :what: :really: :wink:"

No, seriously, apart from the rather painful chest burn I sustained during the squash the teflon balloons game I had a fab time; actually I enjoyed the balloon game too :wink: - anything to win chocolates :yum: David was seen taking about a dozen balloons home at the end of the night :what: ; he told me they were for the cats to play with, but hmmmm :wink:

Lily looked really lovely (as usual), Greg looked fab; those silver shoes were amazing and the shirt even gave Andy a run for his money. Wendy's dress was lovely and she even wore some sparkly shoes too :grin:

So glad that Lily and David are coming to Beach Ballroom, it's going to be a real laugh :grin: Can't wait, it's getting ever closer!!!

Px

Minnie M
10th-November-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I was sitting with you and he didn't ask me either:tears:

And I was much prettier than ALL of the women sat at our table - well I was until I changed out of my pink wig, fishnets and leotard.:devil:

I WAS being serious Andy:sad:

TheTramp
10th-November-2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
I WAS being serious Andy:sad: So was Andy!! :wink:

Steve

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
come to think of it Chris, wasn't that when you asked Helen to go outside with you and see the stars? Upon reflection, perhaps that was actually "Come outside with ME and I'll show YOU the 'Sters?!? :what: :really: :wink:"

Bad girl, Pamster, bad girl... :devil: :devil:


...apart from the rather painful chest burn I sustained during the squash the teflon balloons game

Hope it's ok, now...

I promise never to squeeze your chest so hard ever again :wink: :waycool:

Chris

Minnie M
10th-November-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
So was Andy!! :wink:

Steve

Andy was NOT there at the time but YOU were !

Pammy
10th-November-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Bad girl, Pamster, bad girl... :devil: :devil:
Hope it's ok, now... I promise never to squeeze your chest so hard ever again :wink: :waycool: [/B]

Balloons and chest in the same sentence... Makes me sound a bit like Pamela Anderson doesn't it!!! Saturdays balloons weren't attached though :tears:

My middle name is Anne though; does that count ? :wink:

TheTramp
10th-November-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Andy was NOT there at the time but YOU were ! Yeah. And he wouldn't dance with me either!! :tears:

Steve

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
Saturdays balloons weren't attached though :tears:

... the same game with Pamela Anderson would probably have the same effect though.

Yuk, yuk, yuk. :sick: :sick: :sick:

Keep it real, babe... :waycool:

Pammy
10th-November-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Keep it real, babe... :waycool:

:hug:

Just had a flash back to a conversation on Saturday; you and Andy, by the dance mats (after his defeat when he didn't realise the game had started; that was very unsporting of Rob not telling him!), but his comments. You two together are incredibly funny; I really wanted to get back and dance but dragging myself away from your hilarious banter was impossible :rofl:

Wish I'd taken my camera; I think we need to get an offical 'Sters photograph :grin:

Px

Andy McGregor
10th-November-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Yeah. And he wouldn't dance with me either!! :tears:

Steve

Keep it up Trampy, I can hear the sharpening of little mouse claws. I'm keeping my head down and offering cheese:hug:

LilyB
10th-November-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
... I asked him, he looked down his nose and said "NO too tired", 30 secs later a pretty young thing asked him and off he went. He did NOT feel remorse at all and still continued to ask all my friends - BUT I felt so awfull I had to go for a walk outside as I felt I wanted to cry :tears: I know what I look like and how old I am and that all comes home to you when you are so cruely rejected or ignored :tears: That scenario is one of the reasons why I would never turn anyone down for a dance. I am afraid (not being a psychologist/psychoanalyst) that I find it hard to go beyond the obvious ie. if a man asks me to dance, I cannot go behind his apparent wish to dance with me and consider the possibility that he might actually prefer it if I said "No", if in my eyes he wasn't in my 'Top Ten' hit list of most desirable dancers ever.

I'm afraid I am a mere mortal, and I go by how I would feel myself if I asked a man to dance. If he turned me down for no apparent reason, I would be shattered. :tears: :tears: :tears:

LilyB

TheTramp
10th-November-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
I'm afraid I am a mere mortal, and I go by how I would feel myself if I asked a man to dance. If he turned me down for no apparent reason, I would be shattered. :tears: :tears: :tears: Yeah. And he'd be insane :D

On the occasions I do get turned down for no apparent reason, I just shrug, go to the next girl, and don't bother asking that first one again.

Steve

Lounge Lizard
10th-November-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Last March at the Blackpool competition, I was sitting with a group of friends who are VERY well known, and VERY good dancers, and was watching ?????? dancing with them all - thought WOW I would love to dance with him - I asked him, he looked down his nose and said "NO too tired", 30 secs later a pretty young thing asked him and off he went. He did NOT feel remorse at all and still continued to ask all my friends - BUT I felt so awfull I had to go for a walk outside as I felt I wanted to cry :tears: I know what I look like and how old I am and that all comes home to you when you are so cruely rejected or ignored :tears:
Are you going to name this dancer Minnie?

I remember once at Brighton about 2 years ago asking an attractive young lady who I had never seen before to dance, she looked me up and down (that never takes long with me :wink: ) and said no, while I was still there a young tall guy asks her - without hesitation she said yes :what:
Feeling just a tad pi##ed off
I asked her friend (who looked embarrassed by the incident but not keen on dancing with me) she said yes ok.
I then carried out my best ever impression of a hotshot dancing next to the first lady - I took up the space of about four dancers and used nearly every move, break, drop etc. I knew
We attracted a crowd and got the applause at the end of the record - something I really am not keen on - but this time it felt great.
pp

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
That scenario is one of the reasons why I would never turn anyone down for a dance. I am afraid (not being a psychologist/psychoanalyst) that I find it hard to go beyond the obvious ie. if a man asks me to dance, I cannot go behind his apparent wish to dance with me and consider the possibility that he might actually prefer it if I said "No", if in my eyes he wasn't in my 'Top Ten' hit list of most desirable dancers ever.


... but if a lady has been dancing a lot and needs a break, it would be ungallant of me to insist on her dancing, and I would hate to think she was suffering if she really needed a break.

It's different if she says she needs a break, turns me down and then gets straight up to dance with someone she prefers to me - that's more hurtful than a straight refusal since the obvious dishonesty makes it worse. One of the most well-known goddesses did that to me recently, and it still stings a bit to recall it.

If I ask someone to dance it's because I initially want to, but if it becomes apparent she's not interested, that desire evaporates damn quick.

Chris

Pammy
10th-November-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
... but if a lady has been dancing a lot and needs a break, it would be ungallant of me to insist on her dancing, and I would hate to think she was suffering if she really needed a break.

Another thing that is key here is how well you know the person. E.g. If Chris said no, I wouldn't be offended and would accept the reason as being the truth and nothing more, we would no doubt find each other later etc. etc. The problem comes when it's someone you don't know well enough that one gets upset by a legitmate reason for not wanting a dance, which seems like a fob-off...

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
Another thing that is key here is how well you know the person. E.g. If Chris said no, I wouldn't be offended and would accept the reason as being the truth and nothing more, we would no doubt find each other later etc. etc. The problem comes when it's someone you don't know well enough that one gets upset by a legitmate reason for not wanting a dance, which seems like a fob-off...
I'd have to be at death's door to turn you down, Pamster :hug:

But you're right... I was turned down flat - I had no idea why... -by someone I'd never seen before on Friday and it was a jolt.

But the jolt was over very quickly, much more so than the obvious fob-off.

Chris

TheTramp
10th-November-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Are you going to name this dancer Minnie? I thought that she already did.

Steve

Forte
10th-November-2003, 01:33 PM
When I really don't want to dance ..I tend to pop outside for a breather ...that way it is obvious...sometimes though I like to watch others dancing ...especially if it is a fun dance..e.g. Trampy was dancing with Jivebrummie on Saturday at the post Amir workshop party and I wanted to watch but I got asked to dance by someone I don't know very well and so felt I had to be polite and say yes. I could hear everyone laughing and shouting encouragement at that pair and I couldn't join in the fun watching Steve and James. I didn't know how to turn the guy down without hurting his feelings but surely I should be allowed to do so... I had a lovely dance with him but I would have preferred the next one. I think it can be too pressured to keep dancing at ceroc sometimes because we are all so polite!!! (well I am anyway!)
:grin:

LilyB
10th-November-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
... but if a lady has been dancing a lot and needs a break, it would be ungallant of me to insist on her dancing, and I would hate to think she was suffering if she really needed a break.

Chris
I never suffer when dancing with you - on the contrary! :yum: - even if I do really need a break (put that down to old age :sad: ) :kiss:

Lily

Graham
10th-November-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Forte
I didn't know how to turn the guy down without hurting his feelings but surely I should be allowed to do so... I had a lovely dance with him but I would have preferred the next one. But explaining that you wanted to watch Steve and James, and could you have the next track instead, wouldn't have hurt anyone's feelings. It's entirely possible to be both honest AND polite! It's called assertiveness!

Forte
10th-November-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Graham
But explaining that you wanted to watch Steve and James, and could you have the next track instead, wouldn't have hurt anyone's feelings. It's entirely possible to be both honest AND polite! It's called assertiveness!

OK...:blush: :blush: :grin: but it just seems to me (reading this thread) that people really do take it to heart if someone says no and they read all sorts of rejection into it that just simply isn't there...

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Forte
people really do take it to heart if someone says no and they read all sorts of rejection into it that just simply isn't there...
It's the fake reasons that are hurtful. Genuine reasons are not in the least.

"I want to watch this, please dance the next one with me" is one I've been on the receiving end of, as it happens...

... and I promise you it's fine. I just sat out and watched too, and the next dance was all the better for it.

Chris

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
I never suffer when dancing with you - on the contrary! :yum:
:blush: :blush:

:kiss: :kiss:

Boomer
10th-November-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Forte
OK...:blush: :blush: :grin: but it just seems to me (reading this thread) that people really do take it to heart if someone says no and they read all sorts of rejection into it that just simply isn't there...

Ok forte, for a few precious moments I'll try to be serious - which is difficult after 20 hours no sleep and counting, so if I wander, forgive me.For you or anyone that thinks 'No' is forbidden, there is a fairly good thread here http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1378&perpage=10&pagenumber=3

Saying 'no' is not, and should never be a problem, I will argue to the death with anyone who says 'no' is forbidden. It is not the refusal that is the problem (IMNHO) but how it is done. I have been refused, and have refused dances before, and no doubt will do so again. The problem is how 'no' is offered - is it qualified or not, not because 'thou must!!!', but because a reason is nice, courteous. In refusing, and being refused, a simple reason (often with a smil) takes all the 'sting' out of being turned down, was turned down twice on Wednesday, I didn't cry once :grin: All this is of course IMNHO, but I think thre is a general level of agreement on this.

See ya at BB :cheers:

Lory
10th-November-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
Another thing that is key here is how well you know the person. E.g. If Chris said no, I wouldn't be offended and would accept the reason as being the truth and nothing more, we would no doubt find each other later etc. etc. The problem comes when it's someone you don't know well enough that one gets upset by a legitmate reason for not wanting a dance, which seems like a fob-off...

That's a really good point Pammie!

I'd be more likely to turn down someone I'm friends with because I know they'd know my reasons would be genuine and that I will come and find them later!

Also like Lily, I have dances that I don't enjoy. I dance with the same man every week, he's not the best dancer in the world, not the lovliest thing to look at either, I can't even say his personality makes up for it but at the end of the day, its only 3 mins of the night and I am saint after all!
:innocent: :innocent: :innocent: :rofl:

Forte
10th-November-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
It's the fake reasons that are hurtful. Genuine reasons are not in the least.

"I want to watch this, please dance the next one with me" is one I've been on the receiving end of, as it happens...

... and I promise you it's fine. I just sat out and watched too, and the next dance was all the better for it.

Chris

Ta! :hug:

Forte
10th-November-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Boomer
Ok forte, for a few precious moments I'll try to be serious - which is difficult after 20 hours no sleep and counting, so if I wander, forgive me.

See ya at BB :cheers: I know! Can't wait! You look so..cute!:yum: (I like hairy men...:rofl: )

LilyB
10th-November-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Yeah. And he'd be insane :D
Steve
:hug: :kiss: Does that mean I get at least one dance with you at Aberdeen? :yum:

Lily

Daisy
10th-November-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
Wot, lil' ol' me - 5'2" and seven & a half stone? :innocent:

Wait..... it's full moon tonight..... ooooh, I feel a change coming on..... Oh no!....Aaargh!!! I turning, I'm turning....into........???!!! :what: :what: :what: (Answers on a postcard please) :devil:

Please don't let it be another Andy Mac! One of him is quite enough!:rofl: :rofl:

Daisy
10th-November-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Just as in the rest of life... you have to read her mind.

If you can't, that's not her fault :waycool: :wink: :nice: :really: :what:

Forget it ...... you are on a total loser there!:D
_______________________________________

What goes around comes around..

Daisy
10th-November-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Last March at the Blackpool competition, I was sitting with a group of friends who are VERY well known, and VERY good dancers, and was watching ?????? dancing with them all - thought WOW I would love to dance with him - I asked him, he looked down his nose and said "NO too tired", 30 secs later a pretty young thing asked him and off he went. He did NOT feel remorse at all and still continued to ask all my friends - BUT I felt so awfull I had to go for a walk outside as I felt I wanted to cry :tears:
________________________________________________

He agreed to danced with me ONCE! at Camber, abait reluctantly, and he nearly pulled my arms off.....you had a lucky escape!:sick:
_________________________________________________

What Goes around comes around..

ChrisA
10th-November-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Daisy
Forget it ...... you are on a total loser there!:D
I knew you were going to say that :waycool: :na: :na:

Daisy
10th-November-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I knew you were going to say that :waycool: :na: :na:

That comment marks the beginning of a wonderful friendship .......
watch it you!

Ta for the dance on Sat...... thoroughly enjoyed it.:kiss:

Minnie M
10th-November-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Keep it up Trampy, I can hear the sharpening of little mouse claws. I'm keeping my head down and offering cheese:hug:

I WAS genuinly very upset at that time - and both of you should have more sense than to ridicule me !

Chris
10th-November-2003, 09:12 PM
I must admit that the guys seem to have it a bit easier. But maybe we have to learn to be creative in the ways we ask for feedback? Even if I know someone quite well, unless I've been dancing/practicing with them that day, I generally always ask before doing drops or laybacks, and test the water (by doing little bits) before doing double speed moves, seducers, or putting the lady on the spot for 'solo' improvs. I like to get feedback afterwards too, and often try to ask how comfy it was.

If she felt fine and wants more like that, she'll usually be enthusiastic; if not she will maybe say something like, 'it was ok, but a little bit on the strong/fast side, not too much' etc. If I hear a sudden intake of breath I sometimes ask if it was 'good' or not - she may be thinking 'wow' or she may be thinking 'crikey' and the body language can be confusingly similar!

I often keep to very simple moves for the first dance or two (unless there's an immediate strong connection) - advanced dancers never complain as they're more interested in how rather than what, and if they are less advanced then hopefully they become relaxed and I can try and work out the sort of things they like. I find this different for every partner too - what one partner likes doing with another dancer, however wonderfully and even if it seems like it's the same 'move' that I do with my partners, there is no guarantee it will work between us, so I concentrate on connection first and listen for feedback.

One chap I know (forget his name - teaches Lindy occasionally in Newcastle area) came up with the Commandment 'The follower shall follow the leader' but quickly added 'The leader shall follow the follower'.

Does this mean anything to anyone else apart from me?

His explanation was: 'the routine of moves which the leader selects, the pace and energy with which he leads them, the rhythm he uses, and all such things, should be selected in the light of the responses from the follower. He must monitor what is being well received, and what isn’t. No two partners are alike, and a partner will feel more special if the dance they get seems tailored to them. A creative follower will be offering opportunities for certain leads to her partner. The leader should always be watching for this. For the length of one song, the follower is the leader’s queen, and he her faithful servant attending to her wishes.'

There's also a maxim, oft repeated in style classes, that the degree of tension is led by the man. True, but it's the amount of tension needed to indicate and maintain frame, not the amount to 'put the lady through the move'. It's amazing how little lead / indication the experienced ladies need . . . "May I open this door for you?" is more often a case of a social, gentlemanly gesture that triggers the automatic sensors than crashing against the door in question lol.

Minnie M
11th-November-2003, 12:00 AM
You never know who your are dancing with these days ???

Divissima
11th-November-2003, 12:12 AM
Minnie M wrote:
You never know who you are dancing with these days :really: Steady, Minnie, the young and impressionable (aka Boomer) may be watching :really: :really:

Andy McGregor
11th-November-2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Daisy
Please don't let it be another Andy Mac! One of him is quite enough!:rofl: :rofl:

Too late, there's already two of me. And if we stand on each others shoulders we're nearly six feet tall:cheers:

Andy McGregor
11th-November-2003, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
I WAS genuinly very upset at that time - and both of you should have more sense than to ridicule me !

I was making fun of the Trampster, not you, Minnie - I don't know what the Trampster was doing, but neither does he!

I would never, ever make fun of you Minne. Tell me who that nasty man was and I'll sort him out! In fact, tell us all and we'll never dance with him until he apologises:kiss:

ChrisA
11th-November-2003, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Chris
One chap I know (forget his name - teaches Lindy occasionally in Newcastle area) came up with the Commandment 'The follower shall follow the leader' but quickly added 'The leader shall follow the follower'.

Does this mean anything to anyone else apart from me?

Very much so. Nikolas Lloyd (known as Lloyd, not Nikolas, don't ask me why) - he's written some interesting stuff about dance.

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/dance/tencomm.html is the article you're quoting there. Well worth a read, as is his other dance-related stuff.

Chris

ChrisA
11th-November-2003, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
You never know who your are dancing with these days ??? Off the Rock Bottoms web site, I assume. That Jules has a great deal to answer for... :mad: :mad:

Do you think I look good as a blond? :waycool: :waycool:

Chris

ChrisA
11th-November-2003, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Daisy
That comment marks the beginning of a wonderful friendship .......
watch it you!

:devil: :devil: :devil:


Ta for the dance on Sat...... thoroughly enjoyed it.:kiss:
I sure know why you won that comp. :hug: :hug:

More please.

Chris

Jon L
11th-November-2003, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Are you going to name this dancer Minnie?

I remember once at Brighton about 2 years ago asking an attractive young lady who I had never seen before to dance, she looked me up and down (that never takes long with me :wink: ) and said no, while I was still there a young tall guy asks her - without hesitation she said yes :what:
Feeling just a tad pi##ed off
I asked her friend (who looked embarrassed by the incident but not keen on dancing with me) she said yes ok.
I then carried out my best ever impression of a hotshot dancing next to the first lady - I took up the space of about four dancers and used nearly every move, break, drop etc. I knew
We attracted a crowd and got the applause at the end of the record - something I really am not keen on - but this time it felt great.
pp Mr Lizard and also Minnie M I am mighty relieved that both you and I have experienced a phenomenon - I have mentioned before on the Ceroc London forum earlier this year called "A Hangers On"

A "Hangers on" person is a female who only wants to dance with a tall, elegant male. which myself and Mr. Lizard are not! or a recognised hotshot !!

It can be men as well who only want to dance with young slim attractive women or a female hotshot!!

Now don't get me wrong we all have dancers who we love dancing with but I will not turn down anyone who wants to dance unless I need a drink or the loo in which case I'll say come and find me in a minute and try and look for the person who asked.

I get upset a rejected still cos I am quite sensitive :blush: as where now I am learning if the woman says no and dances with someone else immediately beause of the reason you described to think "It's your loss" :what:

TheTramp
11th-November-2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
:hug: :kiss: Does that mean I get at least one dance with you at Aberdeen? :yum:

Lily I think the only thing I have to say to that is....

Only one??? :tears:

Steve

Chris
11th-November-2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
come to think of it Chris, wasn't that when you asked Helen to go outside with you and see the stars?

Eeek! When I first saw that I thought I was the Chris in question and you had been in Auckland when there was a dance party with temp flooring outside for literally dancing under the stars
:drool: :grin: :grin:
(especially as one of my favourite dance partners is called Helen, but she wasn't in Auckland at the same time).

I invited several ladies to come and see the stars with me that night - for a dance! I must confess they looked exceptionally ravishing by starlight. One lady came over for a year and we dated for a few months (and is now one of my best friends). The other is getting married soon. But dancing under the stars is something none of the people who went outside that night will ever forget I guess. Like being in a movie! It's amazing!

It would be a lovely idea - and a fabulous experience - maybe Mr L.Lizard could oblige one year at Cambers? (I know he's good at that sort of thing)
:wink:
ps can we also arrange nice weather for when you sort out an outside dancefloor please Mr Fixit?!
:wink:

Jon L
11th-November-2003, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Chris
Eeek! When I first saw that I thought I was the Chris in question and you had been in Auckland when there was a dance party with temp flooring outside for literally dancing under the stars
:drool: :grin: :grin:
(especially as one of my favourite dance partners is called Helen, but she wasn't in Auckland at the same time).

I invited several ladies to come and see the stars with me that night - for a dance! I must confess they looked exceptionally ravishing by starlight. One lady came over for a year and we dated for a few months (and is now one of my best friends). The other is getting married soon. But dancing under the stars is something none of the people who went outside that night will ever forget I guess. Like being in a movie! It's amazing!

It would be a lovely idea - and a fabulous experience - maybe Mr L.Lizard could oblige one year at Cambers? (I know he's good at that sort of thing)
:wink:
ps can we also arrange nice weather for when you sort out an outside dancefloor please Mr Fixit?!
:wink:



Great idea by the sounds of it, trouble is the British weather, you would have to do it between June and August and also find some way of getting the required amount of 240 V AC if it was outside!
and really remote.

Chris
11th-November-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Jon L
Great idea by the sounds of it, trouble is the British weather, you would have to do it between June and August and also find some way of getting the required amount of 240 V AC if it was outside!
and really remote.

We had a school with a big dancefloor (gym?) with doors that went outside to a tarmac playground area to which temp flooring had been added . . .

Beach Boogie possibility? Edinburgh?
:confused:
Methinks there must be the expertise on the Forum to maybe make it happen . There's maybe schools in Edinburgh similar with nice flat playing grounds adjacent - imagine it with end of Festival fireworks in the skies overhead!
:drool: :waycool:

(posts from teachers / Peter LL would be good)

Minnie M
11th-November-2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Do you think I look good as a blond? :waycool: :waycool: Chris

I thought you looked cute :wink: :drool:

PS: NOT found on th web site :wink:

Lounge Lizard
11th-November-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Chris
Eeek! When I first saw that I thought I was the Chris in question and you had been in Auckland when there was a dance party with temp flooring outside for literally dancing under the stars
:drool: :grin: :grin:
(especially as one of my favourite dance partners is called Helen, but she wasn't in Auckland at the same time).

I invited several ladies to come and see the stars with me that night - for a dance! I must confess they looked exceptionally ravishing by starlight. One lady came over for a year and we dated for a few months (and is now one of my best friends). The other is getting married soon. But dancing under the stars is something none of the people who went outside that night will ever forget I guess. Like being in a movie! It's amazing!

It would be a lovely idea - and a fabulous experience - maybe Mr L.Lizard could oblige one year at Cambers? (I know he's good at that sort of thing)
:wink:
ps can we also arrange nice weather for when you sort out an outside dancefloor please Mr Fixit?!
:wink:
could not do it at Camber as there are severe sound restrictions on this site for night time dancing - this is why the doors are never open.
For the last four years I have held a garden party in Eastbourne with room for over 400, kids welcome, food games and family fun, inside dance area suitable for over a 100 dancers plus outside dance area suitable for over 100 dancers, bar bouncy castles etc. etc. 12 hours dancing and fun for£10 I thought that was a good price.
At my last one weather was perfect we had expected over 250 we got 150 - 9 people turned up from Hastings Eastbourne and Brighton (a few more did turn up after 7pm when price dropped to £5) I turned the lights off on two dance aras as they were not being used - so I would not advise it to Promoters.
I lost a lot of money and will not be having any more garden parties :tears:
Shame but thats dancing - I had planned to hire a large sports venue with another organiser for a major outdoor event, but we also scrapped this idea.
sorry it is off thread but was relevant to the previous posting.
peter

Gadget
11th-November-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I think the only thing I have to say to that is....

Only one??? :tears:

Steve
You better not monopolise all these good dancers tramp...

Minnie M
11th-November-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Are you going to name this dancer Minnie?

The Tramp definitely knows who he is (obviously likes him) - the clue was in the question marks - AND I have had THREE private emails from fellow forumites who know who I am talking about and totally agree what a :devil: "?????? ::mad: devil: he is - at least that made me feel a lot better - thank you ladies :hug:

ChrisA
11th-November-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
I thought you looked cute :wink: :drool:

PS: NOT found on th web site :wink:
Where ja gettit then, Minnster?? Did you take it???? :really:

All these dance events blur totally into one another... so I never remember who I saw where. I just know that I only wear blond wigs on the IOW :D

Chris

Minnie M
11th-November-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Where ja gettit then, Minnster?? Did you take it???? :really:
Chris

ha ha and there are lots and lots more :wink:

I bought their CD of the event , only a fiver and it has got vids of the cabarets too :cheers: (all the shots Jules took during the weekend including all the jim-jam ones:blush: )

TheTramp
11th-November-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
The Tramp definitely knows who he is (obviously likes him)I'm interested in how you came to the conclusion that I 'obviously like him' then Minnie.

(I'm not saying whether I do, or don't you understand. Just interested in why you said that!).

Steve

ChrisA
11th-November-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
ha ha and there are lots and lots more :wink:

I bought their CD of the event , only a fiver and it has got vids of the cabarets too :cheers: (all the shots Jules took during the weekend including all the jim-jam ones:blush: )
Of course!!!!!!!!! Doh!!!!!

I get more scared when Jules points that camera at me than I even do dancing with her... but she does a fab job at it.

I must get a copy... I meant to ask Tor (a lovely dancer, incidentally) on Saturday but I forgot.

Chris

ChrisA
11th-November-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Divissima
Minnie M wrote: :really: Steady, Minnie, the young and impressionable (aka Boomer) may be watching :really: :really:
You mean I'm not impressionable???

The Youngster :waycool: :waycool:

Pammy
11th-November-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
You mean I'm not impressionable???

Those winning tactics of yours definitely left an impression on my chest; a third degree rubber burn :wink:

Minnie M
11th-November-2003, 01:34 PM
Up to last week I had only received 2 private emails, but from this post alone I have had about 10 !

Let the matter be closed now please, we have all guessed who it is and most are in agreement that this person is DEFINITELY a Hotshot on the dance floor, although he might be very nice off it.

Divissima
11th-November-2003, 02:22 PM
ChrisA asked:
You mean I'm not impressionable???I refer you to said photograph - is that the face of an impressionable cross-dresser?? I think not:really: :wink:

Minnie M wrote:
Let the matter be closed now please, we have all guessed who it is and most are in agreement that this person is DEFINITELY a Hotshot on the dance floor, although he might be very nice off it.

I have thought quite long and hard about posting this, and I expect I will get flamed, but I have felt quite uncomfortable about the identification of the above individual. I found it easy to identify him and just feel that IMHO the Forum shouldn't really be about 'naming and shaming'. Quite apart from how they might feel to read or hear third hand what has been said about them, there are, potentially, legal issues involved. I'm not saying that the comments are necessarily potentially libellous in this case, and Franck usually polices the Forum effectively in such circumstances. I'm just saying, I don't think criticising identifiable individuals (rather than a general kind of behaviour) is what the Forum should be about.

*phew* - sits back to await flaming

Sheepman
11th-November-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I lost a lot of money and will not be having any more garden parties :tears:
Peter this is a real shame, no reason you should continue with all that effort and taking a big loss. I wondered if having it on the August bank holiday w/e just before the start of Beach Boogie affected the numbers?

Anyway I feel privileged to have attended the last 2 of these fab events, and have lots of great memories and some hilarious video footage to go with it.

Greg
:tears: :tears: :tears:

Minnie M
11th-November-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
[b]I have thought quite long and hard about posting this, and I expect I will get flamed, but I have felt quite uncomfortable about the identification of the above individual. I found it easy to identify him and just feel that IMHO the Forum shouldn't really be about 'naming and shaming'. Quite apart from how they might feel to read or hear third hand what has been said about them, there are, potentially, legal issues involved. I'm not saying that the comments are necessarily potentially libellous in this case, and Franck usually polices the Forum effectively in such circumstances. I'm just saying, I don't think criticising identifiable individuals (rather than a general kind of behaviour) is what the Forum should be about.

*phew* - sits back to await flaming

I really wish I hadn't said anything now, but it went with the theme of the thread - I didn't mean to expose the person and for this I apologise, I think the follow-on postings caused the problem, but isn't that what a forum is about ? I personally was very hurt by this incident, but we are talking about HOTSHOTS here - legal issues ?? As I said in my last posting I was hoping this issue would be closed, it has gone on far too long.

ChrisA
11th-November-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
I have thought quite long and hard about posting this, and I expect I will get flamed, but I have felt quite uncomfortable about the identification of the above individual.
Couldn't agree more.

I've referred to one of two hotshots, but not in public by name.

In at least one of the hotshot incidents I've encountered for myself, I've subsequently acquired a snippet of info that puts it into the "insensitive but understandable" category.

I know I can sometimes be insensitive without knowing it, and it doesn't make me a bad person, so I'm reluctant to bad-mouth anyone.

Chris

Pammy
11th-November-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
and I expect I will get flamed, but I have felt quite uncomfortable about the identification of the above individual. I found it easy to identify him and just feel that IMHO the Forum shouldn't really be about 'naming and shaming'.

You won't get flamed by me Diva. I completely agree. Now I know who this person is (alright, it always takes me longer to catch on than anyone else), I can vouch that they have a very sweet and kind side as well and have always treated me with nothing other than respect; by saying this I'm not saying he doesn't have a bad side, I'm just saying his good side is possibly something better to focus on.

Let's leave names out of it in future, otherwise it just becomes victimisation against an individual which could be classed as being worse that the initial deed. We are all sinners afterall... I hold me hands up to that :blush:

Px

PS You can shoot me down in flames as well, but make it quick pleeeeeaaase!

Divissima
11th-November-2003, 03:02 PM
Minnie M wrote:
I think the follow-on postings caused the problem, but isn't that what a forum is about ?Sorry, Minnie, but it is possible to identify him from your post. And while I would agree that the Forum is for airing issues which affect us as dancers (and for wasting time at work, of course), I think there is a problem when it goes from the general to the specific/personal.


I personally was very hurt by this incident, but we are talking about HOTSHOTS here - legal issues ??I wouldn't for one moment deny your right to feel how you feel - who am I to say how you or anyone should react? But just because we are bandying around the term 'Hotshots', I think we need to be careful about condemning people out of hand. As Chris pointed out above, there are always (at least) two points of view to any such incident. We also need to be careful about posting anything potentially libellous (we don't want Franck shut down, after all!).

Sorry Minnie, this isn't meant to be a criticism of you - more a reminder for everyone. Want to write more but have to fly to a meeting....

Boomer
11th-November-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
I really wish I hadn't said anything now, but it went with the theme of the thread - I didn't mean to expose the person and for this I apologise, I think the follow-on postings caused the problem, but isn't that what a forum is about ? I personally was very hurt by this incident, but we are talking about HOTSHOTS here - legal issues ?? As I said in my last posting I was hoping this issue would be closed, it has gone on far too long.

Pandora’s box I’m afraid hun :sad:, but yes it does take two to tango and any responsibility you may feel for the way the thread has progressed recently has to be shared by anyone who has publicly enquired as to the identity of this person. Publicly, this is no-one’s business but those directly involved, any investigation as to who this person may have been should have been pursued face-face with yourself or, at the most, via PM. You may have made a mistake in alluding as to whom this person was, but it was an allusion that I, and others missed, until it was highlighted by someone else.

You have every right to post how you feel/felt in that situation, hell I did. These emotions may have lead you to say more than you would do normally, we all make mistakes in the heat of the moment – that is why it is good to have people less worked-up in a situation around us, they help us deal with the causes of that distress. I feel you have been let down.

The point of the ‘Hotshots’ thread is, in my opinion, an examination of the phenomenon, not a crusade against individuals. One recurring theme regarding ‘Hotshots’ is the insensitivity they display to others. There has been, for a short time, a display of insensitivity to an individual that is no different or less hurtful than people receive from the actions of hotshots. Vilifying an individual is not the answer, because it has no bearing to the question initially raised by this thread - ‘What is a Hotshot?’ not ‘Who is a hotshot’.

There is a time and a place for everything, full-disclosure vendettas have no place on this forum, if you want to find out who someone is, do it face-to-face. ‘Naming and shaming’ will only discourage individuals from enjoying the Forum, in the same way some people diminish our enjoyment on the dance floor.

Flame away.

P.S. Minny, there’s always an ape looking for a dance :hug: You at Hippies tomorrow?

stewart38
11th-November-2003, 05:03 PM
who is this person ?

I haven't caught on yet

Agree however its best not to name and shame

:cool:

Chris
19th-November-2003, 11:08 AM
I wouldn't imagine many people think of themselves as hotshots, or the people they dance a lot with, so that doesn't leave much but . . .

Is there an idea that can be applied across the board on this phenomena?

(cross ref - Gadget's post in the 'fess up guys' thread perhaps, and maybe some of the comments in the 'awestruck' thread . . .)

Isn't it that we like dancing with people who make us feel comfortable? I imagined for a while that anyone who cold-shouldered / avoided / blank-danced me was snobby, had something against me, or whatever, but then I wondered why I also (on very rare occasions) instinctively avoid (as do most of us if we're honest) the occasional person (though not directly refuse)?

What I'm getting at is that in asking someone for a dance and when dancing with them we try to put them at ease. This may be dance related or it may just be the 'vibe' we give off (even unintentionally) and is often different for different combinations of two people at any one time. So I think I'm saying the responsibility for putting someone at ease so they want to dance is the with the person making the move (and sometimes best attempts fail - at least at the time). Where it's a battle of wills (neither wants to make the first move but there's still an interest) then probably both people have some work to do to put each other at ease.

Does this make any sense at all? I'm not saying unpleasant (or unpleasant to some) people don't exist, just that it seems to me we need a more creative solution than labelling . . .

:confused:

:hug: :kiss: :cheers:

Andy McGregor
19th-November-2003, 12:35 PM
There has been much talk about Hotshots and their behaviour on this thread. There's even been the revival of the term I'd not heard of before, the 'Ceroc Snob'. There can be no doubt that they exist and that this is a phenomenon that can be seen just about anywhere. But what relevance does it have to us?

There are 2 questions to ask yourself. These are;

1. Am I a Hotshot?
2. Do I want Hotshots in my dancing life?


1. Am I a Hotshot?

The first question you need to ask is if you care. Do you match most of the following criteria;

a.You don't dance with beginners. You might think they make you look bad or you might think someone else can train them up to be worthy of you.
b.You sit out the intermediate lessons - this is far more active than turning up after the lesson, you must be present but not do the lesson. You know all the moves and don't feel the need to help the lesser dancers who do the lesson - you might even chat and laugh during the lesson making those taking it feel self-conscious.
c You have a regular group of people who you exclusively like dance with. You dance well together and never make each other look bad. Your group probably station themselves somewhere near the stage.
d. You don't think you need to do anything personally to encourage beginners/lesser dancers. You're not an unpaid taxi dancer, you'll dance with them when they're good enough to join your elite.
e. You make people feel feel uncomfortable when they dance with you. You look bored, sad, grumpy, or superior so that they don't ask again.

If you're most of the above then you are a hotshot, and if you're happy with that you really don't have a problem.

On the other hand, you might have slipped into this behaviour accidentally or through peer group pressure. You might want to encourage beginners, you might want to dance with new people, you might not smile because you have no teeth :devil:

This is a journey of self-awareness. Ask yourself searching questions, 'do I still dance with beginners', 'do I take part in lessons', 'do I ask strangers to dance', 'do I want to put something back', etc. If the answer to these questions is yes then you aren't a Hotshot.


2. Do I want Hotshots in my dancing life?

So, we've decided we aren't a Hotshot:waycool: But they are a fact of life in the dance scene. What do we do about them? Do we dance with them? The answer is that we dance with the people we like dancing with. It would be a kind of inverse snobbery to avoid Hotshots. So we should ask Hotshots to dance, and if we get no pleasure from a dance with someone we don't repeat the experience. So the answer for me is that I don't agree with their behaviour because I think it's selfish but I will dance with them if it's fun. But that won't stop me dancing with beginners - and I believe that failure to do this is the main indicator that someone is a Hotshot.


3. Should we name Hotshots?

What would be the point?:devil:

DavidB
19th-November-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
1. Am I a Hotshot?
b.You sit out the intermediate lessonsYes

c You have a regular group of people who you exclusively like dance with. You dance well together and never make each other look bad. Your group probably station themselves somewhere near the stage.Yes - at least the people I ask (they are called my friends)

e. You make people feel feel uncomfortable when they dance with you.I've been told this a lot.

If you're most of the above then you are a hotshot3 out of 5 counts as 'most', so guilty as charged

and if you're happy with that you really don't have a problem.Pretty happy - apart from the 'uncomfortable' bit.

Pammy
19th-November-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
3 out of 5 counts as 'most', so guilty as charged

David; you are definitely NOT a hotshot (well not in my eyes). You are one of the nicest people in the room :hug:

I must admit that I am guilty of dancing with people I like. This is not about their ability as dancers, but I enjoy going out and being amongst my friends and dancing with them. I found myself only dancing with my friends towards the end of Camber, whereas at the beginning I danced mainly with people I didn't know. I guess the more tired I got, the more groping sessions one has experienced on the floor and the more danced-out (if I'm allowed to say that) I get, the more I just want to be around people I know and trust as they won't be disappointed, offended or take anything I say/do the wrong way.

Hell, I even put the balloon at the front :blush:

Does that make me one?

ChrisA
19th-November-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Yes
Yes - at least the people I ask (they are called my friends)
I've been told this a lot.
3 out of 5 counts as 'most', so guilty as charged
Pretty happy - apart from the 'uncomfortable' bit.
No, David, you've misread the criteria. You may dance near the stage, but you don't "station" yourself there. Therefore you probably fail to meet the criteria of 1(c), and can score only half a mark.

Further, you are disqualified from 1(e) since you don't reinforce any discomfort caused by looking "bored, sad, grumpy, or superior".

By my calculations you therefore score a maximum of 1.5 out of 5, so I'm afraid you fail to measure up.

You need to try a lot harder, I'm afraid, if you have hotshot aspirations.

Chris.

Gary
19th-November-2003, 01:42 PM
I think I'm the anti-Hotshot. Not only do I miss out on all the snobby things like avoiding beginners, I even have to say no to this one:


Originally posted by Andy McGregor


c You have a regular group of people who you exclusively like dance with. You dance well together and never make each other look bad.


Even with my regular partners I'll often make us both look like doofuses because I keep trying stuff that only rarely works. It'd be nice if there's something good about that (don't see how, though).

Heather
19th-November-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Let the matter be closed now please, we have all guessed who it is

AMEN to that!!!!!!! Personally I haven't a clue who you are talking about and couldn't care less!!
All I can say is THANK GOD I live in SCOTLAND where we don't have so-called HOTSHOTS. Everyone up here is friendly, everybody dances with everyone else. None of us, however skilled we are in dance , would ever dream of offending another dancer by refusing a dance. And we don't go around with our heads up our a***s as it would appear some of our Southern cousins do!!!!

:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
XX (MAd woman from Dundee)

Andy McGregor
19th-November-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
e. You make people feel feel uncomfortable when they dance with you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been told this a lot.

quote:

Pretty happy - apart from the 'uncomfortable' bit. The only reason I feel uncomfortable when I dance with you is the full and certain knowledge that I'll never be that smooth...

..or that tall:tears: :tears:

Tiggerbabe
19th-November-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Heather
And we don't go around with our heads up our a***s as it would appear some of our Southern cousins do!!!! Probably to avoid passive smoking :wink::devil:

Boomer
19th-November-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Heather

All I can say is THANK GOD I live in SCOTLAND where we don't have so-called HOTSHOTS. Everyone up here is friendly, everybody dances with everyone else. None of us, however skilled we are in dance , would ever dream of offending another dancer by refusing a dance. And we don't go around with our heads up our a***s as it would appear some of our Southern cousins do!!!!

I'm thinking the only problem with going to The 'Deen this weekend is going to be leaving :tears:

TheTramp
19th-November-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Heather
All I can say is THANK GOD I live in SCOTLAND where we don't have so-called HOTSHOTS. Everyone up here is friendly, everybody dances with everyone else. None of us, however skilled we are in dance , would ever dream of offending another dancer by refusing a dance. Actually, that's not quite true. I've been refused lots of times. Sherwin has never danced with me. And Steven only danced with me the one time that he had to, since I'd bought a ticket. And I'm not afraid to name and shame these people :wink: :na:

Steve

Minnie M
19th-November-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Heather
AMEN to that!!!!!!! Personally I haven't a clue who you are talking about and couldn't care less!!
All I can say is THANK GOD I live in SCOTLAND where we don't have so-called HOTSHOTS. Everyone up here is friendly, everybody dances with everyone else. None of us, however skilled we are in dance , would ever dream of offending another dancer by refusing a dance. And we don't go around with our heads up our a***s as it would appear some of our Southern cousins do!!!!

:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
XX (MAd woman from Dundee)

I could not agree more Heather - from my time dancing in Scotland with my friend James Hashmi (who is in the UK at the moment) I found EVERYONE really friendly and had lots of dances with men I have never met before let alone seen dancing !

Both Scott and Franck and their crew made me most welcome when visiting their classes too !

Andy McGregor
19th-November-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Heather
(MAd woman from Dundee)

I've met some of the women who dance in Dundee - this descriptor is of absolutely no help whatsoever in differentiating between them:devil:

When I'm reincarnated I'm coming back as a "Mad woman from Dundee". The all seem to have so much fun all of the time:kiss:

Dance Demon
19th-November-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
- from my time dancing in Scotland with my friend James Hashmi (who is in the UK at the moment) I

Yay...good ol' Jivin' James.....was nice to see him at Marco's last Thursday en route to Camber.....a fellow lover of 50s R'n'B & doo wop ...:waycool:

RoyBoy
19th-November-2003, 05:12 PM
I was at Camber last weekend, but I did'nt see James - and he's not the kind of guy / dancer yer likely to miss. Where were you James??

Jon L
19th-November-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There has been much talk about Hotshots and their behaviour on this thread. There's even been the revival of the term I'd not heard of before, the 'Ceroc Snob'. There can be no doubt that they exist and that this is a phenomenon that can be seen just about anywhere. But what relevance does it have to us?

There are 2 questions to ask yourself. These are;

1. Am I a Hotshot?

2. Do I want Hotshots in my dancing life?

3. Should we name Hotshots?

What would be the point?:devil:


For me personally

1) No I don't think I am a hotshot

2) Depends whether they make me feel welcome and be encouraged if I ask them. If they don't I'll avoid them.

3) No not here - remember that they don't have an opportunity to defend themselves. Having said that pointing out unacceptable types of behaviour is acceptable.

Jon L
19th-November-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Yes
Yes - at least the people I ask (they are called my friends)
I've been told this a lot.
3 out of 5 counts as 'most', so guilty as charged
Pretty happy - apart from the 'uncomfortable' bit. I don't think Lily or you are hotshots as you'll always say Hi and have a chat, and Lily is always happy to dance

Bill
19th-November-2003, 06:03 PM
Only just come across this thread and glanced through a few of the contributions.

I think we must be quite lucky up ehre as I can't think of any real Hot Shots. We have a few folk who think they are much better than they really are but most of the really good dancers are genuinely nice people ( Brian, Gilbert, William in Edinburgh, Alex, James, Steve, Sherwan in Dundee and others at Aberdeen and Glasgow................and dozens of lovely women).

I can't imagine any of them refusing a dance or looking down their noses at anyone - regardless of age, size, ability.

There has been some discussion about attitudes of dancers elsewhere on the forum and the only Hot Shots I've ever encountered have been in London and a few at Beach Boogie. A few 'good' dancers who keep very much to themselves and give the impression that they would rather not dance with the rest of us.

The good thing is there are hundreds of other great dancers around so the minority can dance togeher and leave the rest of us to have fun.:D

Minnie M
19th-November-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by RoyBoy
I was at Camber last weekend, but I did'nt see James - and he's not the kind of guy / dancer yer likely to miss. Where were you James??

Wrong weekend - James is going to Camber THIS weekend, Rhythm Riot - lots of International R & B, Rock & Country bands still plenty of dancing but NO CLASSES - very different to Franco's Camber - I don't think there will be a Hotshot in sight too :cheers:

Daisy Chain
19th-November-2003, 08:17 PM
Take more time to smell roses
and pick a few daisies


:grin: I'm a Daisy, dance with me!

RoyBoy
19th-November-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Wrong weekend - James is going to Camber THIS weekend, Rhythm Riot - lots of International R & B, Rock & Country bands still plenty of dancing but NO CLASSES - very different to Franco's Camber - I don't think there will be a Hotshot in sight too :cheers:
Ah, that sounds about right. More in keeping with the James I knew in Glasgow - had a habit of doing a pretty nifty 'kick-ball-change'

RoyBoy
19th-November-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Daisy Chain
:grin: I'm a Daisy, dance with me!
I would be delighted to pick my way through a field of dancers with a lovely Daisy:innocent:

Daisy Chain
19th-November-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by RoyBoy
I would be delighted to pick my way through a field of dancers with a lovely Daisy:innocent:


Full many a flower is born to blush unseen and waste its fragrance on the desert air.


:tears:

Twinkle Toes
20th-November-2003, 12:01 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill
most of the really good dancers are genuinely nice people ( Brian, Gilbert, William in Edinburgh, Alex, James, Steve, Sherwan in Dundee and others at Aberdeen and Glasgow................and dozens of lovely women).

..... and Brady, Dave H, our leader Franck, the boy Sir Roy and of course yourself ..... :drool:

I can't imagine any of them refusing a dance or looking down their noses at anyone - regardless of age, size, ability.

Couldn't agree more.

The good thing is there are hundreds of other great dancers around so the minority can dance togeher and leave the rest of us to have fun.:D

I'll second that one too. :D

TT x

Chris
20th-November-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Heather
THANK GOD I live in SCOTLAND where we don't have so-called HOTSHOTS. Everyone up here is friendly, everybody dances with everyone else.

I can't say I quite agree - If there were a lot of people on the Forum from London who fulfilled the criteria they would probably say exactly the same. I don't know the London 'groups' and so don't notice it when I go down. I've danced in Scotland for years and have seen exactly the same phenomena in Edinburgh and Dundee. I'm not contradicting you or saying the people up here aren't very friendly, but I don't think it's as black and white as that. The positive culture of ceroc does not encourage disenfranchised people to speak out. (I'm not speaking about personal experience although there are several people who would never ask me for a dance - I've just come off the phone to a Dundonian ceroccer who is very disenchanted - especially by one or two top dancers there who she says look down their noses at her and I had to try and encourage her.)

You don't notice these things when you're on a high, surrounded by folk telling you you are right. All I'm saying is don't get overconfident about this 'we're so friendly to everyone' line - it's what every jive club in the country advertises - the Scots are just a wee bit better at the self publicity.

Just my opinion, and it's meant well to everyone.

Bill
20th-November-2003, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Chris
All I'm saying is don't get overconfident about this 'we're so friendly to everyone' line - it's what every jive club in the country advertises - the Scots are just a wee bit better at the self publicity.

Just my opinion, and it's meant well to everyone.


And although like every club or organisations there may appear to be some cliques I can't think of any Hot Shots up here and the feedback from dancers in the south is always positive after they have been here.

Comments on the forum and from other dancers who have visited Scottish classes always re-inforce the fun aspect here - epitomised at the Scottish Champs.

Maybe the dancers who looked down their noses at this woman were not Hot Shots at all ???

Chris
20th-November-2003, 03:55 AM
I don’t know if they are a ‘hotshot’ or not! Depends who I ask! I do know that they fit some of the criteria, both objective and subjective ones, but I also know many good things about that person. I guess their social skills / interpersonal skills are not as developed as many beginners would wish to see in such an experienced dancer (and the same things could easily be said about a number of people, and without any acrimony). They'd probably be shocked (or even annoyed) that anyone thought they were a hotshot, and then carry on giving out that impression.

The Hotshots thread, and similar discussions we might have, can have a positive effect inasmuch it’s good to be able to offload to someone about people who p*ss you off. But on a less short-term basis my feeling is that the jive community (or any community) would do well to develop a more inclusive approach – hence my tentative suggestion.

Learning the social skills that go with being part of a national movement do not always go hand in hand with learning the dance skills. They’re much harder for some people than others. I’m sorry if this sounds too goody-goody for some people’s tastes, but remember people don’t just ‘go away’ once they’ve developed a taste for dancing. The aim is to include them in what you or I think is an acceptable way of behaving.

We’re all the same in the sense we all are human beings with thoughts and emotions. Developing empathy for others and so increasing the harmony enjoyed by everyone is connected with a feeling of responsibility towards them rather than ‘picking and choosing.’ As a comparison, if you are a taxi-dancer, you are there for all (beginners), not just the ones that you judge to be ‘nice.’ If we look beyond dancing skills alone and include ‘people skills’ we can apply the idea to everyone, beginners, intermediates, advanced. As a result of such an attitude, people develop a respect for us. That includes, ultimately, people regarded by some or by many (in Scotland, London or anywhere else) as ‘hotshots’.

We won’t change the ‘hotshot’ phenomena by thinking of them as outcasts. Neither will we change it by believing that any one group (eg Scotland) is immune – doing so is like saying we are superior to ‘those people’ whilst at the same time blinding ourselves to it when it happens in our closer circle – neither of those attitudes will bring the desired change. So I suppose I’m saying that it’s human to sound off once in a while but, although it’s a quick way to bond ("let’s all agree we don’t like them") it’s ineffective at improving things and is probably even counterproductive!

Even without naming and shaming, thinking of someone as a hotshot is a form of demonising - it doesn't say much nice about us, however understandable. Believing we could never be guilty of it ourselves is a weakness. (Look in any book on social anthropology if you want the psychological evidence.) Learning to be conscious of the vibes we give off is an ongoing process. So is being genuinely caring or ‘loving’ towards everyone, and as an equal.

I hope no-one feels offended at me putting these ideas forward - they are meant in a supportive way and I'm no more of a saint than anyone else - probably less!

Hey, maybe I should include smokers in this thread . . .*:wink:




(* this is a joke, especially for Andy – with smoking you have clearer objective criteria and the power of 'social acceptability' has a better chance of working – or at least driving it underground!)

JamesGeary
20th-November-2003, 01:06 PM
<Official Devil's Advocate>
I used to know this Auckland girl that was a genuine 16 out of 10, and dressed like she knew it. Great fun to talk with to, but unfortunately not a dancer. She was the most stunning girl I've ever met. I would go clubbing with her occasionally at Cal-Neva by the waterfront. She told me that when she was younger she would do anything with anyone, but the buzz from that had gone.

Guys would come up to her and ask her for a dance or if they could buy her a drink and she would say 'No' and then turn to me and talk to as if the person didn't exist. How utterly cruel. This woman defined the word bitch! I would turn to the spurned guy and say a few words so he wouldn't feel totally rejected.

By the 9th complete stranger that asked her out in about 40 minutes, I just started ignoring them too. The second time I went clubbing with her the same thing happened, continuously. The continuous stream became annoying and where she was being polite and just saying 'No' I wanted to say 'Bugger Off'. By the third time the stream became a genuine frustration!! We came to talk with each other. All these guys must have their own friends they came with.

Now this wouldn't happen in a small town or pub, because there is a limited supply of suitors, but at a big club in the big smoke it quickly became a joke.

The only reason I was shocked was because I had no understanding of her situation. Her negative was a positive for me.

My ODA question is, should she

1) Say 'bugger off'
2) Say 'no' and ignore them
3) Say 'no' then make small talk for 3 minutes (let's remember that on average 9 guys would ask her every 40 minutes)
4) Position her friends to physically prevent anyone asking her
5) Say 'yes', spend 6 minutes with them, also thus creating expectations in the person regarding future possibilities
6) Say 'yes' and let any of these guys do what ever they want with her, after all it costs her so little and it would mean so much to them (this was a genuine 16 out of 10 girl).

</ Official Devil's Advocate>

Will
20th-November-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
My ODA question is, should she

1) Say 'bugger off'
2) Say 'no' and ignore them
3) Say 'no' then make small talk for 3 minutes (let's remember that on average 9 guys would ask her every 40 minutes)
4) Position her friends to physically prevent anyone asking her
5) Say 'yes', spend 6 minutes with them, also thus creating expectations in the person regarding future possibilities
6) Say 'yes' and let any of these guys do what ever they want with her, after all it costs her so little and it would mean so much to them (this was a genuine 16 out of 10 girl).



7) Say "Sorry, but can't you see that I'm having a drink with my Dad!"

Sheepman
20th-November-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
<Official Devil's Advocate>
I used to know this Auckland girl . . . All interesting stuff, but I really don't see the parallels with the dance world. Presumably when you go to a jive club, you are there mostly to dance, and you expect people to come up and ask for 3 minutes of your time, and after those 3 minutes (usually) it's all over.

Greg

ChrisA
20th-November-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
My ODA question is, should she


Thanks for posting this James.

Chris, re-evaluating big time.

:cheers: :cheers:

Will
20th-November-2003, 01:33 PM
Whilst I love baiting Mr Geary, I agree that he does have a point here in terms of constantly being hassled. However, as Sheepman points out, the analogy isn't exact, and I think there is an onus (sp?) at dance venues to be a little more politte about it.

Andy McGregor
20th-November-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Chris
They'd probably be shocked (or even annoyed) that anyone thought they were a hotshot, and then carry on giving out that impression.

..snip..

Even without naming and shaming, thinking of someone as a hotshot is a form of demonising - it doesn't say much nice about us, however understandable. Believing we could never be guilty of it ourselves is a weakness. (Look in any book on social anthropology if you want the psychological evidence.) Learning to be conscious of the vibes we give off is an ongoing process. So is being genuinely caring or ‘loving’ towards everyone, and as an equal.

I hope no-one feels offended at me putting these ideas forward - they are meant in a supportive way and I'm no more of a saint than anyone else - probably less!
size]

I think you're right Chris. This 'Hotshot' thread came from a quote I found about the stages of dancing. In postulating the Hotshot behaviour traits I've probably produced a personal check-list. The message is know thyself. I don't think this thread is about demonising Hotshots or naming and shaming them, it's about looking at our own behaviour and weeding out behaviour which might, unintentionally, upset other people.

Hotshot behaviour does upset people. But usually the person that's been upset has imagined most of the upset. All the Hotshot has done is say 'no' or looked bored during a dance. The rest happens in our own head. We create a soap-opera scenario from a single 'no'. For example I might think they've said 'no' because I'm a short, ageing, balding, ugly bloke who can't dance - but all they actually said was 'no'. The rest came from me. If felt personal because I made up all that other stuff which wasn't actually said at all - but in my case is completely true:tears:

And that's why we must all be on our guard against becoming Hotshots or exhibiting that kind of behaviour. I can't imagine very many of the people on the dance scene deliberately behave that way towards their fellow dancers. And if they knew the upset it caused they might even behave differently. And that is, hopefully, where something like this thread might help. In helping people realise how upsetting being turned down is there might be less Hotshot behaviour and more love in the world:waycool: :wink:

And, leaving seriousness aside for a moment, making fun of something that's upset us is a way of dealing with it and healing the upset it caused.:devil:

Boomer
20th-November-2003, 02:02 PM
Sorry James, you are comparing two different environments imho. Like it or not, in a night-club one has to accept that there is an overt sense of the ‘meat-market’ (sorry for the vulgar expression) prevalent in that environment. A ’16 out of 10’ person, male or female has to accept that they are going to be approached, in all likelihood quite often. Irritating yes, but also inevitable. I’m afraid its part of the ‘night-club’ culture.

At a jive venue, the majority of people are there to dance. This ‘meat-market’ aspect is of course there to some degree, but it is not (unless I’m mistaken) and integral and defining aspect of the culture and, more importantly:


Originally posted by Sheepman
All interesting stuff, but I really don't see the parallels with the dance world. Presumably when you go to a jive club, you are there mostly to dance, and you expect people to come up and ask for 3 minutes of your time, and after those 3 minutes (usually) it's all over.
Greg
Seeing as one goes (primarily) in order to dance, the dynamic present when one is approached by a stranger is slightly different. Seeing as we are there to dance, provided we feel like a dance at that moment I assume we say yes, their looks and personality do not figure into the answer – this of course excludes pervs, animals and other such undesirables :grin:.

I will agree with you on your other point. There are reasons why a person will choose to decline a dance and this has to be respected, refusal does not equate to being a hotshot. How your friend chooses to respond to people in her situation is a matter for her, I would only hope that responds with a level of dignity in direct response to that which she receives.

Minnie M
20th-November-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Will
7) Say "Sorry, but can't you see that I'm having a drink with my Dad!"

Nearly right Will

- if we are comparing this with dancing and being on the 'other end' of this situation a few times I would prefer :-

"Sorry, I am in conversation at the moment"

However, if you really don't want to dance with that person, for whatever reason - have the decency NOT to dance with anyone else whilst that current track is playing

Boomer
20th-November-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
However, if you really don't want to dance with that person, for whatever reason - have the decency NOT to dance with anyone else whilst that current track is playing
Yes. It can be a small courtesy, but it goes a long way.

ChrisA
20th-November-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Boomer
Sorry James, you are comparing two different environments imho. Like it or not, in a night-club one has to accept that there is an overt sense of the ‘meat-market’ (sorry for the vulgar expression) prevalent in that environment. A ’16 out of 10’ person, male or female has to accept that they are going to be approached, in all likelihood quite often. Irritating yes, but also inevitable. I’m afraid its part of the ‘night-club’ culture.

At a jive venue, the majority of people are there to dance.
You're missing the point, Boomster

What do you think happens to the 16/10 dancers? Nothing excuses rudeness, but read James' post again. The girl wasn't being rude.

Chris

Boomer
20th-November-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
You're missing the point, Boomster
What do you think happens to the 16/10 dancers?
They get asked to dance, the same way we do (and I'm no 16/10...0.16/10 maybe :sad: ) and as often as we do, admittedly by more people. But is being asked to dance, when one has gone somewhere to dance necessarily a bad thing?

Nothing excuses rudeness, but read James' post again. The girl wasn't being rude.
Sorry Darkster :grin:, I thought I was a bit clumsy in that post. I wasn't accusing her of being rude, believe it or not I've been in the same situation :really: and it is frustrating. I didn't read James' post as indicating she was, just muddling through a fuggey-head trying to make a point :grin: Bedtime for Boo-boo I think :nice:

ChrisA
20th-November-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Boomer
They get asked to dance, the same way we do (and I'm no 16/10...0.16/10 maybe :sad: ) and as often as we do, admittedly by more people. But is being asked to dance, when one has gone somewhere to dance necessarily a bad thing?

But what happens when even the 10% of the time they'd like to dance with their A-list is crushed to nothing by the people asking them? There are only 7 nights in a week, after all.

Still... what a problem to have, eh ?? :wink:


Sorry Darkster :grin:,

Sorry myself. A bit abrupt, my last :sorry :hug:

Chris

Boomer
20th-November-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
But what happens when even the 10% of the time they'd like to dance with their A-list is crushed to nothing by the people asking them? There are only 7 nights in a week, after all.
Aha! But that's when one politely refuses to dance, and people learn to accept that 'no' is permissable. I think Andy said somewhere that it's one's own sensitivity that joins up dots that don't really exist. Example? I recently danced with what I thought was my Hotshot, she was absolutely lovely, and probably just had a bad night. She wasn't the problem I was, because I took it to heart.


Sorry myself. A bit abrupt, my last :sorry :hug:
Chris
Don't be silly :nice:

ChrisA
20th-November-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Boomer
Aha! But that's when one politely refuses to dance, and people learn to accept that 'no' is permissable.

Yes, exactly, and then ten seconds later someone comes up that they've been waiting for for ages (because they too are in tremendous demand), and then one of two things happen:

- they dance. Result: previous refusee feels rejected
- they don't dance. Result: 16er has to sit out the track

It's a tough call to have to make, I would guess... in my next life I plan to get good enough to have to make it all the time :D :D
But you're still young enough to do it in this life, you lucky bugger :cheers:

Chris

Franck
20th-November-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Result: 16er has to sit out the track Andy, you'll have to scrap all the 'sters t-shirts... they are soooo last week!!!

Everyone will want a 16er t-shirt instead :D

Franck.

Boomer
20th-November-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Andy, you'll have to scrap all the 'sters t-shirts... they are soooo last week!!!

Everyone will want a 16er t-shirt instead :D

Franck.

Untucked of course. Tucked in is soooooooo 50's, the era of course:innocent:

ChrisA
20th-November-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Andy, you'll have to scrap all the 'sters t-shirts... they are soooo last week!!!

Everyone will want a 16er t-shirt instead :D

Franck.
No, you can be a 'ster without necessarily being a 16er.

Come on Franck, you have to pay attention if you want to keep up :D :D

Chris

Pammy
20th-November-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Boomer
Untucked of course. Tucked in is soooooooo 50's, the era of course:innocent:

Yes but you couldn't do TUCKED, not after I'd ensured you got a small one :wink: There wasn't enough material to tuck :wink: :wink: :rofl:

40" oh yes, 40", that's do nicely.... NICELY :grin:

Franck
20th-November-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
No, you can be a 'ster without necessarily being a 16er. You mean like you can wear Black&White shoes without being a great dancer?

Franck.

ChrisA
20th-November-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Franck
You mean like you can wear Black&White shoes without being a great dancer?

Franck.
Don't be silly, of course not. You wouldn't tuck your trousers into your shoes, would you? :what: :really:

Andy McGregor
20th-November-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
No, you can be a 'ster without necessarily being a 16er.

Come on Franck, you have to pay attention if you want to keep up :D :D

Chris

If you're a 16er wouldn't it sort of speak for itself.

How about one that says 'My other friend's a 16er'?

And, what is Franck's 'ster name? I've just gone through many slightly anti-French names in my head - anyone think of anything nice? If you do please post it no the 'sters thread as I'm getting all confused:confused:

Pammy
20th-November-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
If you're a 16er wouldn't it sort of speak for itself.

How about one that says 'My other friend's a 16er'?


That reminds me of some of my old riding shirts; we used to have ones like

Riders like a bit on the side, and Dressage Riders do it to music etc. Perhaps we should have the dance equivalent?? :wink:

Andy McGregor
20th-November-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
That reminds me of some of my old riding shirts; we used to have ones like

Riders like a bit on the side, and Dressage Riders do it to music etc. Perhaps we should have the dance equivalent?? :wink:

Cerocers do it with 40 partners a night:waycool:

Boomer
20th-November-2003, 03:58 PM
16ers have to concentrate to keep it up.

Minnie M
20th-November-2003, 04:35 PM
Am I going mad :confused: where did the worm come from on Boomer's avatar :confused:

Will
20th-November-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And, what is Franck's 'ster name? I've just gone through many slightly anti-French names in my head - anyone think of anything nice? If you do please post it no the 'sters thread as I'm getting all confused:confused:

Napoleon'ster?

plankton
21st-November-2003, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
snip
However, if you really don't want to dance with that person, for whatever reason - have the decency NOT to dance with anyone else whilst that current track is playing

ahh but what about the situation say on a Tuesday at Hipsters when a great fast Lindy number comes on and I want to Lindy it I will refuse the known jive only ones in a desperate search for another Lindy type. :)
I do try and find the refused ones and dance with them later :innocent: but as I am there to have fun and practice I don't want to sit out these tracks.
At Camber I had time to say Lindy ? get the no! response ...sigh and jive away.

There are always the handcrushers, steel taloned types that I now happily turn down regardless with no sympathy (I have given them all plenty of opportunity to change their habits) I work to improve my lead and incorporate the feedback I get, another few years I 'll have this stuff sorted :D

Keith

Daisy
21st-November-2003, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Will
7) Say "Sorry, but can't you see that I'm having a drink with my Dad!"

What a superb reply.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Minnie M
21st-November-2003, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by plankton
ahh but what about the situation say on a Tuesday at Hipsters when a great fast Lindy number comes on and I want to Lindy it I will refuse the known jive only ones in a desperate search for another Lindy type. :)
IKeith

I once refused (not naming here) a very very good modern jiver and forumite because it was a Lindy dance and I wanted to practice - it made him cross and he refused to dance with me for about 3 months after that and even now rarely dances with me:tears:

ChrisA
21st-November-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
I once refused (not naming here) a very very good modern jiver and forumite because it was a Lindy dance and I wanted to practice - it made him cross and he refused to dance with me for about 3 months after that and even now rarely dances with me:tears:
There's 'cross', though... and...

One of the Twickenham ladies (I think it was) was telling me about a complete git who'd asked a friend she'd brought along, a very new beginner, to dance.

She said no, mostly out of lack of confidence...

... to which his response was:

"You've paid your £6, have you? Well, then, you're obliged to dance with me"

:really: :really: :really: :really:

plankton
21st-November-2003, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
I once refused (not naming here) a very very good modern jiver and forumite because it was a Lindy dance and I wanted to practice - it made him cross and he refused to dance with me for about 3 months after that and even now rarely dances with me:tears:

Wow if I did that I wouldn't have anyone to dance with at all !:)
I used to have competitions with Andy and Steve over who could get turned down most often.
Rules forbade repeats and dead certs. I used to win most times (usually by a large margin :sad: )
It doesn't happen so much now. Either I have got better at speculative invites or I stopped asking .......
still manage lots of dances though with all you nice people :cheers:

Keith

Chris
21st-November-2003, 02:11 AM
Please ignore this post if it interrupts the more amusing ones, but as it's in the Dance rather than chit chat forum, and I think it's relevant, I shall risk the wrath of those who hate multiple conversations! :devil:


Originally posted by JamesGeary
I used to know this Auckland girl that was a genuine 16 out of 10, and dressed like she knew it. . . . She was the most stunning girl I've ever met. . . . Guys would come up to her and ask her for a dance or if they could buy her a drink and she would say 'No' and then turn to me and talk to as if the person didn't exist. How utterly cruel. This woman defined the word bitch! I would turn to the spurned guy and say a few words so he wouldn't feel totally rejected.

By the 9th complete stranger that asked her out in about 40 minutes, I just started ignoring them too. The second time I went clubbing with her the same thing happened, continuously. The continuous stream became annoying and where she was being polite and just saying 'No' I wanted to say 'Bugger Off'. By the third time the stream became a genuine frustration!! We came to talk with each other. All these guys must have their own friends they came with.

The only reason I was shocked was because I had no understanding of her situation. Her negative was a positive for me.

My ODA question is, should she
1) Say 'bugger off' . . .
{snip}

ODA or not I think it’s a serious post so hope it’s not too boring to look at the issues it raises . . .

The 'leper' treatment she gave guys can sting like hell . . . But the interesting thing is that her situation seemed different when understood. My guess it can be hard for very pretty girls (or much-in-demand dancers?) and, although it’s not an excuse for rudeness, just cos she has 16/10 looks doesn’t mean she’s thought of ways to be polite in a situation that most people won’t find themselves in. She probably felt under pressure every time she went out and was pretty grateful to have you there as an excuse not to get hit on. She maybe even felt embarrassed at her own behavious but couldn't think what else to do.

I’ve known Scottish girls who can say “No, f*ck off, please” in just those words and not cause offence, but it’s an art (and I’m not recommending that phrase!) When I worked in a nightclub, the female staff got practiced – partly they saw lots of it but also they weren’t under the same pressure when they were working so could think round the problem a bit (rather than having to struggle for words on a night out enjoying themselves and a few drinks). With practice, I think girls can distinguish between different qualities of advances (very pretty girls often seem to get the nerdiest of lines – cos many guys are intimidated by them, or fail to see them as ‘people’, or are just too shy or embarrassed.) If she had been plain and only asked occasionally, no-one would have noticed, or she’d be under less pressure and probably politer, and the guys wouldn’t have felt like lepers.

I think there’s a similarity with dancers. Nobody gets p*ssed off at a beginner refusing or looking bored, but heaven help them once they become a recognisable or sought-after face if they don’t upgrade their manners, tact & diplomacy! :really:

That ‘leper’ thing (reverse hotshot factor) can be a problem in dance circles and, as Andy said, it may be nine tenths what’s in someone’s head rather than what’s actually said. More than once, I’ve been at a venue with ‘known’ visitors to the area (once they were staying with me and once they were staying next door) and chatting away when someone comes over, makes intense conversation with them, and acting like I’m not there (on one occasion I tried to break the ice by interjecting with a conversational compliment, and at which point she strode off apparently in a huff). I felt like crawling under the table! But she may have just been a bit excited to see them, as well as nervous, and not intentionally rude to me. I got over it but after the second time I did feel like a puppy that had been kicked once too often for a bit. Constructively, it also makes me wonder when I go to a venue down south, and I’m with the hosts, and - I hope I’m never the instrument for people who know each other to cause hurt like that.

Bill – although you never ask me for a dance :devil: :wink: I must say I have noticed you be very friendly and make people welcome, including people I’ve been with, even when many others (including the teachers) have ignored them – but I think that’s because it’s in your nature – but when you're friendly and surrounded by friendly people I doubt if even you would notice when other people are being less socially skilful (I think this is a natural social phenomena, not aimed at you personally - partly it's from my experience when I organised a lot of jive socials - I only found out later how some people had felt left out of the general 'largesse'.)

I hope I’m getting more sensitive the more I dance, but if you feel that the Scottish friendliness is invincible I disagree, that's all - and even if you don't get disaffected people come and speak to you, I'd say carry on doing a good job, but don't assume everyone is. Friendliness to one/some can easily be seen as coldness to another/others (It also makes me wonder how many hotshots are just very shy when they go outside their immediate circle or comfort zone). I don’t hold it against someone if I can believe they may have made a mistake, or were at least well-intentioned. One of the things I genuinely admire about experienced dancers who have been on the circuit a long time – sometimes ten or twenty years – is the finesse many of them have developed in interpersonal things of this sort – dancing ability is almost the icing on the cake. As ceroc/jive is primarily a fun social club, expectations tend to be high. In the 'dance as sport' cultures that take dancing more seriously it seems to be less of a problem.

I don't want to ruffle any feathers on this, or suggest Scottish ceroccers are less friendly(!); I just think that together the people on this forum have the ability to come up with creative solutions to things like the hotshots phenomena - and ignoring it or pretending it isn't there won't solve it IMHO. :what:

Gadget
21st-November-2003, 10:34 AM
Jeez Chris, I thought I was bad for long posts! :wink:
Interesting point about hotshots perhaps just being good dancers out-with their comfort zone, but you are defining the hotshot only in their refusal to dance, not in their attitude when actually dancing: Once a good dancer is on the floor, they treat their partner with their fullest attention and courtesy - something a "Hotshot" would not.

And as to the social skills of experienced dancers, I think that it's more a confidence thing: The experienced dancer has the confidence to dance and know that if (when :rolleyes: ) they screw up, they can recover and shrug it off. They have been to many venues and seen/danced with almost every level of dancer. It gives a level of security that is absent in those with less experience.

Chris
21st-November-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
Jeez Chris, I thought I was bad for long posts! :wink:

ROFL! Mea Culpa! :rofl:

Interesting point about hotshots perhaps just being good dancers out-with their comfort zone, but you are defining the hotshot only in their refusal to dance, not in their attitude when actually dancing: Once a good dancer is on the floor, they treat their partner with their fullest attention and courtesy - something a "Hotshot" would not.
You maybe have a point there - but I thought 'hotshots' tended to dance with each other - and presumably they find each other's attention and courtesy ok - they're less attentive and courteous when they are out of their comfort zone - blank smiles etc - so I think the comparison stands up to an extent. Whether it does or not though, I think their behaviour can most likely be modified by kindness and understanding of their perceived shortcomings.

And as to the social skills of experienced dancers, I think that it's more a confidence thing: The experienced dancer has the confidence to dance and know that if (when :rolleyes: ) they screw up, they can recover and shrug it off. They have been to many venues and seen/danced with almost every level of dancer. It gives a level of security that is absent in those with less experience. not so sure about that one:confused: - I think a sense of security helps people to be kind to each other, but I was thinking more about the minefield of asking/not asking accepting/avoiding dances, for whatever reason / maintaining genuine friendships whilst being nice / getting on with everyone. I thought the analogy about the 16/10 girl was stimulating, but probably a theory's only as good as a result it can achieve so I accept it won't work for everyone.
:cheers:

Andy McGregor
21st-November-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Chris
I think their behaviour can most likely be modified by kindness and understanding of their perceived shortcomings.


..or you could just apply electrodes to their nipples during the drops:devil:

Chris
21st-November-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
..or you could just apply electrodes to their nipples during the drops:devil:
They might drop their ladies mid-air if you did that - but at least it would be fun to watch for a while :devil: :yum:

JamesGeary
24th-November-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA

One of the Twickenham ladies (I think it was) was telling me about a complete git who'd asked a friend she'd brought along, a very new beginner, to dance.

She said no, mostly out of lack of confidence...

... to which his response was:

"You've paid your £6, have you? Well, then, you're obliged to dance with me"



Heaven forbid trick questions to get nervous beginners up and dancing!!! How dastardly. Sounds like Viktor, or Nigel. In defence of them, once most beginners get up and dance they enjoy themselves, lose their nevousness, and then come back next time. GOOD THING.

But where's all the anger coming from? Hell hath no fury like the wrath of the woman not asked to dance. Especially if the complete beginner gets asked instead. Just a hunch.

Chris
24th-November-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
Sounds like Viktor, or Nigel.
Miaow!!

and I wonder if either of them are lurking with cat-scratch anywhere LOL . . .

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
Heaven forbid trick questions to get nervous beginners up and dancing!!! How dastardly. Sounds like Viktor, or Nigel. In defence of them, once most beginners get up and dance they enjoy themselves, lose their nevousness, and then come back next time. GOOD THING.

I think I must have given the wrong impression.

It wasn't like this at all... I know the girl who related the story, and whatever the guy might have intended, his comment came over as overbearing and unpleasant...

... some people have got what it takes to persuade nervous beginners to dance, and some, er, seem not to. Particularly when the beginners initially say no, some guys don't quite know how to handle it.

Chris

Andy McGregor
24th-November-2003, 11:28 AM
I must, to my embarrassment, admit to , in the past, using the 'you've paid to get in and dance' approach before. But never with beginners as I usually manage to persuade them to get up and have a go.

Sometimes in the past when I'd received the the 'nightclub brushoff' from an experienced dancer I don't know I've looked crestfallen and said words to the effect of 'you've paid £5 to come in and dance, so the message I'm getting is that you want to dance, just not with me:tears: - but feel free to ask me anytime:tears: ". This only had about a 50% success rate so I don't say it any more, I've now adoped different tactics which work much better:wink:

Nightclub Brushoff - To look a person up-and-down with distain and a slight turning away of the head and as if you caught a whiff of something unpleasant followed by saying 'no' as if saying it in the third person for somebody else.

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
This only had about a 50% success rate so I don't say it any more, I've now adoped different tactics which work much better:wink:

I kind of take the view that no dance at all is better than an unrequited one, so I never try to persuade anyone except new beginners who are clearly too shy to go for it.

There's usually someone that's happy to dance, failing that I probably need to get some fluid into me anyway :D

Chris

Andy McGregor
24th-November-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I kind of take the view that no dance at all is better than an unrequited one, so I never try to persuade anyone except new beginners who are clearly too shy to go for it.

There's usually someone that's happy to dance, failing that I probably need to get some fluid into me anyway :D

Chris

Franck, there's someone on the Forum using words like 'unrequited'. Please make it stop:tears:

My new tactic is to ask people who look like their keen to dance - seems to work just about all the time. If they hide away in a corner I sort of get the message.

My new rule for selecting my partner for the next dance is now 'the nearest woman, that looks like she'd like to dance, that I haven't danced with yet' - the 'that looks like she'd like to dance' is the new bit and has improved my success rate. I still get the odd 'no' but now I put it down to my bad judgement rather than my height/looks/bad press on the Forum/dancing skill/baldness/etc.

ChrisA
24th-November-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Franck, there's someone on the Forum using words like 'unrequited'. Please make it stop:tears:

Watch it, McGregster, or I'll bring "hitherto" out again. :devil: :devil:

Chris
24th-November-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor

My new tactic is to ask people who look like their keen to dance - seems to work just about all the time. If they hide away in a corner I sort of get the message.

My new rule for selecting my partner for the next dance is now 'the nearest woman, that looks like she'd like to dance, that I haven't danced with yet' - the 'that looks like she'd like to dance' is the new bit and has improved my success rate. I still get the odd 'no' but now I put it down to my bad judgement rather than my height/looks/bad press on the Forum/dancing skill/baldness/etc.

Franck, there's someone on the Forum . . .

He should've put that in the 'fess up guys how do you choose a dance partner thread. mwaaaaa! Please make it stop:tears:

Dan
5th-December-2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
My new rule for selecting my partner for the next dance is now 'the nearest woman, that looks like she'd like to dance, that I haven't danced with yet' - the 'that looks like she'd like to dance' is the new bit and has improved my success rate. I still get the odd 'no' but now I put it down to my bad judgement rather than my height/looks/bad press on the Forum/dancing skill/baldness/etc.

I do the same thing., and get the odd 'no'.

Some of these 'no'es are very odd.

Can someone please explain to me the following common response "I am alright, thank you"? :o

I am tempted to respond "So am I! and I am going to have a lovely dance with someone else!" :waycool:


Andre

ChrisA
5th-December-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Andr
Can someone please explain to me the following common response "I am alright, thank you"? :o
You could try, "I didn't say 'how are you', I said 'would you like to dance'"

:D

My guess is, Andre, you aren't losing much by not dancing with people that reply like that.

Chris

Lory
4th-February-2004, 10:43 AM
KN;Fwoejf;LSMC:;LISHDV'?dOJG :angry:

Sorry:whistle: , Just wanted to get that off my chest!:blush:

I feel much better now!:D

ChrisA
4th-February-2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Lory
KN;Fwoejf;LSMC:;LISHDV'?dOJG :angry:

Sorry:whistle: , Just wanted to get that off my chest!:blush:

I feel much better now!:D

Care to elaborate????

:flower: :flower:

bigdjiver
4th-February-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Lory
KN;Fwoejf;LSMC:;LISHDV'?dOJG :angry:

Sorry:whistle: , Just wanted to get that off my chest!:blush:

I feel much better now!:D The moral: Always make sure the tatooist is not dyslexic and / or drunk.

DavidB
4th-February-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Lory
Sorry, Just wanted to get that off my chest! Wasn't that what Janet Jackson said to Justin Timberlake?

Chris
4th-February-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Wasn't that what Janet Jackson said to Justin Timberlake?

Or "I didn't want them to get off on my chest"?

JamesGeary
4th-February-2004, 02:32 PM
If someone doesn't want to dance with you, you can walk away with whatever you want.

I was just reading an interview of Johnny Vasquez on the web.

When he started dancing salsa he went along to a salsa club for the first time ever and this woman asked him to dance, and then half way through the song said "I'm sorry, but you really just aren't any good" and walked off. I lot of people would have just quit.

He went home mad. It annoyed him so much he went to classes every day for the next month to prove how wrong she was.

If you want to see how well he did out of it just look his name up on the internet. Maybe we could all be so lucky to have such an experience!

DavidB
4th-February-2004, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
"I'm sorry, but you really just aren't any good" and walked off. I lot of people would have just quit. It has never stopped Will either. It still has little effect on him.

Andy McGregor
4th-February-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
When he started dancing salsa he went along to a salsa club for the first time ever and this woman asked him to dance, and then half way through the song said "I'm sorry, but you really just aren't any good" and walked off. I lot of people would have just quit.

He went home mad. It annoyed him so much he went to classes every day for the next month to prove how wrong she was.

I remember when I first started MJ in Brighton. All the 'experts' went on Tuesdays. After 2 lessons on a Monday I went to the beginners lesson on a Tuesday. When I asked these 'experts' to dance 2 of them looked me up and down and, with a sneer, said "I don't dance with beginners" or words to that effect. I didn't go back there for years but I did remember those women and didn't ask them to dance until a few years later. I'm pleased to say that when I danced with one of them, who really dresses the part, I found she dances on the off-beat...

Bardsey
4th-February-2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I'm pleased to say that when I danced with one of them, who really dresses the part, I found she dances on the off-beat...

:yeah: Don't it make you feel SOOOO good! I was just telling a friend the other day that when I first started MJ there were one or two guys I always use to try and get a dance with as I thought they were good dancers. Now I'm a bit more experienced I realise that they aren't good dancers, just flambouyant or confident. The nice thing is that both of them have told me recently how they always try and get a dance with me now, but can never get one cos I'm always on the dancefloor! YEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!!:blush:

Sheepman
5th-February-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Bardsey
YEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!!:blush:
Yes, but have you ever had people saying to you they don't dance with you because of what you wear?
No?
That'll just be me then :what:

Greg

Bardsey
5th-February-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
Yes, but have you ever had people saying to you they don't dance with you because of what you wear?
No?
That'll just be me then :what:

Greg

Well, stands to reason Sheepy, we ladies don't like getting all that fluffy wool all over our clothes, shows up alarmingly on black!:kiss:

Sheepman
5th-February-2004, 04:47 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
But didn't you realise I'm the black sheep? :wink:

Greg

Bardsey
5th-February-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
But didn't you realise I'm the black sheep? :wink:

Greg

Answer for everything, that man, answer for everything!!! :rofl:

Yogi_Bear
5th-February-2004, 06:34 PM
Bardsey,
Do you go to the Engine Shed freestyles? Have been a couple of times, not bad....

Andy McGregor
5th-February-2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
Yes, but have you ever had people saying to you they don't dance with you because of what you wear?
No?
That'll just be me then :what:

Greg

I get this all the time. Do you mean it's not a normal response:confused:

Bardsey
6th-February-2004, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Yogi_Bear
Bardsey,
Do you go to the Engine Shed freestyles? Have been a couple of times, not bad....

Yes, every time, they are great! In fact, I'm going tonight. Let me know when you're next up this way and I'll grab you for a dance :D

Sheepman
6th-February-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I get this all the time. Well there was one other person in my mind when I made that comment, :wink: but Andy, in your case, isn't it the men who are refusing because of what you're wearing?

Greg

Sheepman
6th-April-2004, 03:54 PM
I was surprised, and amused to get an email publicising a tea dance in Sussex, as the name the organisers have chosen is "Hotshots."

Do you think everybody stands around for the whole afternoon, looking important, waiting to be asked to dance? :devil:

Greg

Pammy
6th-April-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
Do you think everybody stands around for the whole afternoon, looking important, waiting to be asked to dance? :devil:

Put Helen and I down for two :wink:

If Only!!! :tears: :tears:

Lounge Lizard
6th-April-2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
I was surprised, and amused to get an email publicising a tea dance in Sussex, as the name the organisers have chosen is "Hotshots."

Do you think everybody stands around for the whole afternoon, looking important, waiting to be asked to dance? :devil:

Greg yup all six of them
the DJ is Mike 'the man' mariner, why Mike the Man...cos he liked the sound of Steve 'hitman' Strong.........................I think there is milage here pick a 'handle' [Remember the CB radio days!] for a forum Member

Mike is the guy that I lent 5 hours of MJ music to for a BBQ he put it on his comprter then set up as a DJ, bless him - still a mate but never gets near my cd collection now.
LL

Fran
6th-April-2004, 04:29 PM
I think there has been a influence of the latin comming into jive, i personally have liked what I've seen. This yera at blackpool I saw female dancers who had changed their dance style from previous years to incorporate small touches.

I do think its also notiable that that in competitions the "dress style" has also been influenced. There are a more sparkley latin style dresses worn by ladies in competitions now than in previous year and high shoes - just wish I could wear the shoes and still dance!!!:tears:

looking forward to hearing you music at Beach Boogie Peter:wink: - lots of blues - :yum: :devil:

fran

Fran
6th-April-2004, 04:31 PM
sory for teh above psot in the wrong thread - it was suposed to go on gus latin jive:what:

MartinHarper
23rd-September-2004, 01:08 PM
Can someone please explain to me the following common response "I am alright, thank you"?

What it means?
"You seem like a gentleman, and it sounds like you're asking me for a dance because you want to make me happy, or because I look left out, which is very generous of you. However, I am alright where I am just at the moment, having a bit of a sit down, and watching the fantastic couple over by the stage. But thank you for asking, and perhaps we could have a dance later on?"

It's more commonly heard in pubs. "Would you like another?" "I'm alright, thanks".

Lee Bartholomew
18th-May-2007, 05:18 PM
Old thread I was reading through Had to laugh




I was surprised, and amused to get an email publicising a tea dance in Sussex, as the name the organisers have chosen is "Hotshots."

Do you think everybody stands around for the whole afternoon, looking important, waiting to be asked to dance? :devil:

Greg



Thats where I danced (till I moved out of Hastings).

Trust me. There are no Hotshots there. Still all at Andy's Beginner stage :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

website as proof www.hotshots.org.uk (http://www.hotshotsdanceleroc.co.uk) Don't think Mike realised what he was doing when he chose that domain name. lol

MartinHarper
22nd-May-2007, 09:12 PM
Something I read as "advice to teachers": if you only hang out and dance with your students, they will see you as a peer, and assume they can't learn anything from you.

True or false?

Twirlie Bird
24th-May-2007, 01:31 AM
Something I read as "advice to teachers": if you only hang out and dance with your students, they will see you as a peer, and assume they can't learn anything from you.

True or false?

I think I would always see them as a teacher. However it's always good to see what your teacher can do. If they only dance with their students then they wouldn't be dancing to their ful potential. Teachers need to do both. Also surely a teacher would get bored if they only danced with students.

This Saturday I am attending a freestyle and my weekly teacher is doing a cabaret with their partner. I am quite excited about this as I have heard so much about his dancing but haven't seen him 'really' dance yet. :respect:

StokeBloke
24th-May-2007, 01:57 AM
Something I read as "advice to teachers": if you only hang out and dance with your students, they will see you as a peer, and assume they can't learn anything from you.

True or false?
I tend to find that dancing talks. Teacher or not, if you talk the talk but can't dance the dance (ok that doesn't scan properly but you know what I mean) you'll be busted.

I would be far more suspicious of a teacher that DOESN'T dance with their students.

straycat
24th-May-2007, 08:43 AM
Something I read as "advice to teachers": if you only hang out and dance with your students, they will see you as a peer, and assume they can't learn anything from you.

True or false?

I'm a little confused about what you mean by 'only' here - do you mean 'if you hang out and dance with no-one but your students?' :confused:

Leaving that bit aside - because of the nature of social dances such as MJ, Lindy, Tango, Salsa at al... my belief is that a teacher isn't just imparting dance knowledge / skills. A teacher is building and shaping a community, and the way they behave outside of the lessons is a hugely important part of that.
Whether it be on the dancefloor, or in terms of social interactions - a teacher is leading by example, and demonstrating (wittingly or unwittingly) the values that they're bringing to the dance community, and - whether deliberately or not - they are encouraging others to do the same.

It is my belief that if teachers are open, warm, friendly and positive, and joyfully dance with everyone at their venues, people at the venue will start taking that example, and following suit.

I believe the reverse is true also, and have seen both sides of this in action.