One for the veterans: Is WCS going the way of Lindy ?

[TA Guy]

This is actually inspired by a thread in TOP, but not being a member there, I had to register and now apparently have to wait to be approved by 'The Management'. Bit of a hotshotty forum obviously :), which brings me nicely to my point...

Back in the day, Lindy was the 'second dance'. Often there would be large'ish groups of Lindy dancers at MJ freestyles, weekenders often had second rooms for Lindy, good Lindy teachers like Andy and Rena were in demand etc. Tho this synergy still exists in hotspots, basically Lindy is no longer the 'second dance' in the MJ world.
The reasons for that are prolly multiple and quite complex to do with changing music and styles etc. but one major reason that I don't think anyone can doubt, is that there was some friction created by the attitude of the MJ'ers of the time who moved to Lindy. This attitude could best be described as 'looking down the nose at MJ'. This friction eventually manifested itself by a "why don't you sod off to your own freestyles" attitude amongst many MJ'ers.

There are uncomfortable parallels between that friction in the MJ/Lindy scene of ten years+ ago and the friction explained in this WCS hotshot thread;
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/land-1000-dances/12819-west-coast-swing-hotshots.html
and the current MJ/WCS scene.

Is history going to repeat itself ? Is WCS going to follow the Lindy path and more or less vanish from the MJ world ?

[Andy McGregor]

Is history going to repeat itself ? Is WCS going to follow the Lindy path and more or less vanish from the MJ world ?

I have changed my mind on this one. About a year ago I said;

IMHO WCS is the new Lindy for MJers.However, I really don't see WCS at MJ freestyles in the way I used to witness Lindy Hoppers a few years ago.

I think that WCS is developing it's own scene. It is fed by MJ, I'm in no doubt about that. But it isn't trying to share a room with it.

[Martin]

If anything I would say WCS has less chance than Lindy of being around in any numbers in the future.

Lindy had it's own strong feed, built up independant of MJ, with the likes of Simon Selmon doing his stuff, and Lindy weekenders with Frankie Manning and team, doing there bit, before MJ had thier own weekenders.
There was as well a feed from MJ, but not exclusively.

Tango and Salsa, also have thier own independant culture and feed, and although at times, are the "in thing" with some of the MJ dancers and takes a feed from MJ, they will not fall down without an MJ feed.

It seems to be that WCS has an almost exclusive MJ feed, and not too many "top dance teachers" who teach it week in and week out.
That is not to say there are not lovely teachers, but there is not anyone of the likes of Jordon and Tatiana, teaching week in and week out in the UK.
It could be that after a year of doing WCS, if you are a good MJ dancer, you might well have supassed your local WCS teacher and then be looking for more.... or looking at Salsa, Tango or the next popular flavour.

But ... but... WCS is here to stay, you might be saying - Well, yes I do think it is here to stay, but do remember it was here when I started MJ in 1994.. It just had a lower profile, there were still people doing WCS in freestyle events, but not many people recognised it. A WCS class was taught in Crawley 1996 replacing the intermediate MJ class - but the interest was low.

So, WCS has been around for a long time, even in the UK, it seems to be popular at the moment, certainly if you believe what you read on the forum.

How long it will be a popular flavour... hmmm ... I guess until the next flavour comes along.

[mikeyr]

It seems to be that WCS has an almost exclusive MJ feed, and not too many "top dance teachers" who teach it week in and week out.

I disagree, I Run the regular Monday Night Class at Trent Park taught by Lee Easton. Of our regular 45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local community


That is not to say there are not lovely teachers, but there is not anyone of the likes of Jordon and Tatiana, teaching week in and week out in the UK.

There arent many in the US in the class of J&T, Mario, Robert & Deborah and Kyle & Sarah either!

We have Lee & Syd, Cat & Paul at the top closely followed by a host of others up and coming, there is no shortage of talent in certain areas and as the WCS community grows.........



It could be that after a year of doing WCS, if you are a good MJ dancer, you might well have supassed your local WCS teacher and then be looking for more.... or looking at Salsa, Tango or the next popular flavour.


Oh boy you couldnt be more wrong there!

The WCS Brits (inc Caro) have had a storming year on the US competition circuit we have been bringing the silverware home by the bucket load in all the divisions up to and inc Advanced, true some of them came from MJ like myself But the best ones DON'T!!! and most have relegated Mj to the minimum if not completely given it up!

WCS weekenders are being run as part of the C&W dance(its more complimentary IMHO), we'll have had two this year. Plus more & more Brits are going to US conventions because their relative cheapness!

[Gav]

I've been thinking about giving it a try and
I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach) doesn't put me off, the same could be said of Lindy and AT, but I managed it in the end, however this
especially if they continue to MJ.and this

some of them came from MJ like myself But the best ones DON'T!!! and most have relegated Mj to the minimum if not completely given it up!
are the sort of comments that make me not want to bother.

[Gerry]

Gav
Please give it a try. We are truly a friendly bunch.
I for one still dance MJ, I must admit that since I increased the amount of WCS dancing and reduced the amount of MJ I have received alot of compliments saying that my dancing has improved.

I have been told that my WCS lead is bouncy :eek:, I have never been told that at MJ, thank god:clap:. The reason for this are down to my triple steps.

Hopefully with some more privates I will have ironed out this problem.

The unfortunate thing at most MJ events is that there really is not enough tracks that are WCS able for the beginners / early intermediates. I think the real advance bods such as Cat and Paul can dance to anything. I saw them in the boucy room at SP, they were brilliant with so many Mj'ivers all around them

[Martin]

45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.



45+ in London, does not shout out loud "a new revolution in dance"

It actually says to me, a typical Lindy class attendance. Which was kinda my point.

Lindy classes here are between 20 and 50 people normally, some excellent dancers, but hardly earth shattering in numbers.

[David Bailey]

I disagree, I Run the regular Monday Night Class at Trent Park taught by Lee Easton. Of our regular 45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.
That's still a lot of dependency. Also consider that a lot of the teachers in WCS seem to have moved from MJ.


I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local community
But, again, despite those efforts, you've still got nearly half of your customer base from MJ. Seems like a feed to me.

I think Martin's spot on with his points.

WCS in the UK is connected to MJ, much more so than dances such as salsa or AT. I doubt if more than 5% of ATers come from MJ, for example.

[Caro]

OK I am not a veteran per se as I wasn't dancing yet during the Lindy episode you are refering to, so I probably shouldn't post here, yet I can think of a couple of fundamental differences which make it hard for me to imagine that WCS is not on a sustained ascending path.

The first one is the music. Swing music is quite specific and has mostly (Stray don't flame me for this!) been written some time ago. Let's face it you don't hear good swing (in the context of this post I'll use swing music to mean lindy suitable) music in the current charts. So it takes a personal journey and growth to start listening and appreciating swing music. On the other hand, people find that they can WCS to most of the most popular tunes of today. So the entry into the WCS world is somewhat easier or more mundane if you want. (I don't deny that once that has happened there is probably a similar personal journey into blues, soul, R&B and even faster swing music).

The second one is the evolution of the dance (I won't go in the debate of the evolution of the dance and swing content and all that here). Let's be honest here, WCS isn't danced today in the mainstream scenes like it was in the 90's - and few would want to dance like this now. Incredibly inspirational dancers such as Kyle and Sarah and more recently Jordan and Tatiana have reached dancers from various backgrounds (thanks youtube) and made them want to do WCS (poll to follow on this actually). I don't deny that Lindy has got similar talented and inspirational dancers, but WCS performances are usually easier to understand by the masses than lindy one (again, the music thing - 'gross' musicality is much more easily spotted by non-dancers in WCS clips than in lindy clips). (Not saying either one is more musical than the other, just it's often harder to understand swing music and hence the dancing to it).


Others have answered on the scenes aspects of the question (i.e. not just MJ anymore), and a WCS scene is now developping on its own (re number of events that don't run on the back of MJ), so I'll leave it there.

[straycat]

The first one is the music. Swing music is quite specific and has mostly (Stray don't flame me for this!) been written some time ago. Let's face it you don't hear good swing (in the context of this post I'll use swing music to mean lindy suitable) music in the current charts.

Weeel - to be fair, t'is hard to flame the truth. (although flaming Thetruth was a forum pastime for a while :whistle:)


So it takes a personal journey and growth to start listening and appreciating swing music.
Or in many cases, it just takes the opportunity to hear truly amazing swing music. Which is an opportunity I believe a lot of people never get :(

[robd]

I disagree, I Run the regular Monday Night Class at Trent Park taught by Lee Easton. Of our regular 45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local community

First things first, Mikey walks the walk in terms of his commitment to UK WCS given his effort and hard work in re-establishing Trent Park as a regular venue. Nonetheless I am really suprised at what he's written here on a number of counts
1 - Generalising everyone who dances MJ into some homogenous whole
2 - Deciding to take the easier route of not recruiting people because they're 'harder to teach' (I have no teaching experience so cannot say if such is true or not)
3 - Building a base around the local community is a laudable concept but is it sustainable?
4 - UK WCS, rightly or wrongly, suffers accusations of elitism from some MJ dancers and this does nothing but reinforce that perception



The WCS Brits (inc Caro) have had a storming year on the US competition circuit we have been bringing the silverware home by the bucket load in all the divisions up to and inc Advanced, true some of them came from MJ like myself But the best ones DON'T!!! and most have relegated Mj to the minimum if not completely given it up!

Well, perhaps the most consistently successful competitor (in relative terms) this year is Foxy Funkster and he's still a Ceroc teacher (and with no intention of giving it up AFAIK) Paul W has had a storming year but I think that was to be expected.

I know you personally have taken the decision to give up MJ to concentrate on WCS Mike and I know some others have done the same. It's a personal choice and shouldn't be criticised either way. It's not something I plan on doing as I don't believe it would benefit my WCS.

[MartinHarper]

It actually says to me, a typical Lindy class attendance. Which was kinda my point.

I think it's more that Modern Jive is the exception in having such large classes.

[NZ Monkey]

I disagree, I Run the regular Monday Night Class at Trent Park taught by Lee Easton. Of our regular 45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.My classes, although smaller in numbers, see something similar. We actually have more people with a Salsa background than a MJ one, and a good proportion of them are also absolute beginners.



I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local communityI think they often have different needs than others. If you find them so much harder to teach perhaps you should look at expanding your own teaching style rather than writing them off however.

Honestly, is it any wonder so many MJers dislike WCS dancers when some of the WCS teachers have attitudes like this? Especially when they express their opinions so "diplomatically" on a public MJ forum.

[David Bailey]

I think it's more that Modern Jive is the exception in having such large classes.
:yeah: I've never encountered large classes outside MJ.

Every other dance is taught in small classes, in the round, almost without exception.

[David Bailey]

Honestly, is it any wonder so many MJers dislike WCS dancers when some of the WCS teachers have attitudes like this? Especially when they express their opinions so "diplomatically" on a public MJ forum.
Why? He's telling the truth as he sees it, what's wrong with that?

Maybe MJ-ers, who are obviously conditioned to expect certain things from a class, are more difficult to teach in other styles. It's plausible.

[Caro]

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach)

I can't possibly believe that complete beginners who have no dance background whatsoever would be easier to teach than MJ-ers.
Yes MJ-ers have a set of 'bad habits' (in the context of WCS) that they need to change when they dance WCS, but they are already able to move with a partner, on music, and are used to freestyle (i.e. not bugged if there isn't a routine) - which is a massive amount of skills that we take for granted once we're past the beginner stage.

Line or jazz / hip-hop dancers are probably the ones who look the best the quickest, but they have a lot to learn on connection (if they haven't done any partner dance) and moving with someone else at the end of their hand.

All other partner dancers will have some 'bad habits' or gaps in their skills (freestyle for example) due to their background, but I can't imagine they would be that much easier to fight than MJ-er's.

Now as to class / teaching / social scene expectations, I can understand MJ-ers might be the more demanding pupils given the standardisation and ease of approach of the MJ classes (i.e. Ceroc's well proven concepts).

[NZ Monkey]

Why? He's telling the truth as he sees it, what's wrong with that?Why is it any surprise that MJer’s dislike WCSer’s when they come out with stuff like this on a regular basis? I think you can answer that yourself David Bailey.

It may be his view, but given the result of commentary like this is only negative for the WCS scene I question the wisdom of expressing it at all. Unless of course, it isn’t the wellbeing of WCS that motivates such comments in the first place.


Maybe MJ-ers, who are obviously conditioned to expect certain things from a class, are more difficult to teach in other styles. It's plausible.I think MJ’ers have a number of bad habits for WCS, but then so do Salsa dancers. So do Lindy dancers. So does practically everyone else, although I’ll concede that the differences are more extreme in some cases than others.

I also think if you’re finding it so much harder to teach a group of people with an identifiable common background and common issues, the burden is on the teacher to find a way to reach them. Note that this is irrespective of what that background actually is (be in MJ, Salsa….etc).

It’s plausible that it genuinely is harder to teach MJ dancers something for the reasons you’ve specified but I think it’s a stretch for the teacher to blame the Mj’ers themselves before looking long and hard at what they’re doing. If Mikeyr has been teaching WCS for 15 years and still found the same I’d be a lot more lenient in my criticism. To the best of my knowledge this isn’t the case however.

[Minnie M]

This is actually inspired by a thread in TOP..............
Apologies for asking this but "What is TOP"

[DJ Andy]

Apologies for asking this but "What is TOP"

'The Other Place' - (MJDA Forum)?

[Whitebeard]

'The Other Place' - (MJDA Forum)?

They can't (or won't) let me in, allegedly because I have an AOL internet address. Yet this forum, also powered by vBulletin, can. Hmmmm ...

I can't even read - let alone post. How elitist is that ???

[NZ Monkey]

They can't (or won't) let me in, allegedly because I have an AOL internet address. Yet this forum, also powered by vBulletin, can. Hmmmm ...

I can't even read - let alone post. How elitist is that ???Well, I do know it runs on an older version of vBulletin, which might be the reason.

I couldn't sign up with this forum because I had a gmail address - Taz set it up for me. Jsut contact the administrator and I have no doubt it will be fixed for quite quickly if you want to join. I don't think you're being deliberately excluded somehow Whitebeard :wink:

[TA Guy]

I can't possibly believe that complete beginners who have no dance background whatsoever would be easier to teach than MJ-ers.


Find I agree with that. I cannot believe MJ'er as a group are harder to teach WCS to than your punters off the street.

Down here we get 60-70 WCS'ers on a good night (before the summer/holidays etc. kicked in properly), 100% of which are MJ'ers (pretty sure that's right, don't remember a single stranger off the street so to speak) :))

I know for a fact that some skills learn't in my MJ are completely transferable to WCS. Good MJ habits that are bad for WCS ? Of course, but it's a completely different dance so its to be expected, if the teacher knows what they are doing, that is part of there job to sort out surely ?

Certainly most MJ'ers understand lead/follow, connection, compression, resistance etc. at some level (OK, sometimes at a really low level :)) even if they don't know the technical names for those. Many MJ'ers move to Salsa or Lindy with a bit of extra application, I can't believe WCS is so special it's just not worth doing.

[Whitebeard]

Well, I do know it runs on an older version of vBulletin, which might be the reason.

I couldn't sign up with this forum because I had a gmail address - Taz set it up for me. Jsut contact the administrator and I have no doubt it will be fixed for quite quickly if you want to join. I don't think you're being deliberately excluded somehow Whitebeard :wink:

No, I really do not think I'm so significant as to be deliberately excluded. But I did aquire a Hotmail address (also Yahou I believe) with no greater success. Perhaps the older version is free and newer ariterations chargeable ?? In any event, it gves the impression of a certainn exclusivety.

[David Bailey]

I can't possibly believe that complete beginners who have no dance background whatsoever would be easier to teach than MJ-ers.
I can - if the work involved in "unlearning bad habits" is greater than the benefits of teaching someone who knows partner dance, then obviously it's easier to take beginners.

There are a lot of downsides to the Ceroc-standard approach to teaching - for example, the focus on moves not techniques, the big, row-based classes, and so on. It's possible these downsides cancel out the benefits.

I'm not saying this is the case - I don't know, one way or the other - but it's not immediately and obviously incorrect. If MikeyR says that's his experience as a teacher, then that seems like a reasonable position to me.

[David Bailey]

No, I really do not think I'm so significant as to be deliberately excluded. But I did aquire a Hotmail address (also Yahou I believe) with no greater success. Perhaps the older version is free and newer ariterations chargeable ?? In any event, it gves the impression of a certainn exclusivety.

:rofl:

Blimey, just mail ChrisA, OK? Rather than whingeing about it on a forum that he doesn't AFAIK read... :rolleyes:

[David Bailey]

Why is it any surprise that MJer’s dislike WCSer’s when they come out with stuff like this on a regular basis? I think you can answer that yourself David Bailey.
What, you think AT-ers are less exclusive? Rubbish, they're much more snooty than any wussy friendly cuddly WCS scene could ever be, believe me.

MikeyR wasn't saying "I hate MJers", he was just expressing his honest opinion about some difficulties he was having teaching MJers. Now, this may reflect his teaching approach, it may reflect genuine objective problems in "transitioning", or it may be plain wrong.

But I'd rather he expressed an opinion which we can debate, instead of being jumped-on for daring to say something not entirely fluffy and positive.

And this isn't a forum for promoting WCS events - although sometimes that's difficult to remember. So "being diplomatic" is not required.

[robd]

So "being diplomatic" is not required.

No, but it's advisable if you want to further the growth of a scene with which you have a passionate personal and financial interest.

[David Bailey]

No, but it's advisable if you want to further the growth of a scene with which you have a passionate personal and financial interest.
Maybe. Doesn't seem to have hurt Rocky none... :whistle:

[robd]

Post removed due to me talking b****cks

[David Franklin]

No, I really do not think I'm so significant as to be deliberately excluded. But I did aquire a Hotmail address (also Yahou I believe) with no greater success. Perhaps the older version is free and newer ariterations chargeable ?? In any event, it gves the impression of a certainn exclusivety.When you register on the MJDA forum, you are sent an email to verify your details. You need to click on a link on that email in order to confirm your registration and be able to view/post the various forums. I think this is fairly standard for vBulletin forums, but speaking to Chris, there are quite a few people who have registered but haven't responded to the verification email.

Best guess is that for some reason these emails aren't getting through to people. I don't know why that might be happening, but as David Bailey says, if you're having problems, your best bet is to mail ChrisA about it mjda@mjda.org.

I am confident any delays are technical glitches rather than anything more sinister.

[straycat]

Post removed due to me talking b****cks

Well - if you will keep doing what they tell you... break free, say I! Stop letting them run your life!!! :whistle:

*and for Christmas, or your next birthday, you could always request a copy of Eats, Shoots and Leaves... :devil:

[Caro]

I can - if the work involved in "unlearning bad habits" is greater than the benefits of teaching someone who knows partner dance, then obviously it's easier to take beginners.

There are a lot of downsides to the Ceroc-standard approach to teaching - for example, the focus on moves not techniques, the big, row-based classes, and so on. It's possible these downsides cancel out the benefits.

I'm not saying this is the case - I don't know, one way or the other - but it's not immediately and obviously incorrect. If MikeyR says that's his experience as a teacher, then that seems like a reasonable position to me.

And I say this is a stretch that I can't imagine being true - and I should know about it a little, having learnt MJ first and then have to work on those bad habits. And having also spent a lot of time observing (and at times helping) people learning to dance wcs from an MJ background.
I appreciate in theory everything's possible: in practice it is so unlikely that I think you're just disagreeing for the sake of it here. :rolleyes:
You said it yourself you don't have an opinion on the subject, I've given you mine, now unless you're prepared to defend the opposite opinion with specific enough arguments I suggest you leave MikeyR clarify his position :na: - it would in fact be interesting to hear what in his teacher experience makes MJ-ers so hard to teach (Mike?).

I think that for your random punter from the street, who has had no dance background whatsoever and has no particular ability, MJ is the best way to start dancing - any kind of partner dancing. But I have no experience in polka so if anyone wants to tell me they have the experience to disagree with that then that's fair enough.

As a said, learning those initial fundamental skills (moving to music with someone else) is easiest when you don't have to worry about complicated footwork and rules and fine-tuned connection.

[Zuhal]

I would just like to remind you that in the average village hall there are lots of MJers on their one night out of the week jigging about and having a laugh. They are the vast majority.

They found Ceroc or MJ a few years ago and treat it as a bit of fun. You only have to watch for a few seconds to cringe at the difference between the locals enjoying themselves with only 20% of the men on the music and 4 couples hitting the same break at a more popular venue. (I hear the standard is very good at Southport and Utopia. I have never been.)

If Mikey R gets these folks through the door for first thing he has to do is to stop them talking over his teaching. I can whole heartedly understand his comment that someone raw off the street is easier to teach.:respect:

Zuhal

[Paul F]

As someone who has taught MJ for many years as well as teaching WCS in the past couple to MJers and non-MJers I suppose I could venture an opinion :nice:

The seperation of MJ and no dance background is largely irrelevant IMO. From experience I have found it is down to the individual and the way in which they accept, process and execute instruction.
Everyone learns differently. Habitual actions are commonplace whether this is a rock step (MJ) or an unwillingness to sustain momentum (WCS) (i just push them :) )

Whether a teacher needs to look to iron out problems brought from MJ or whether they look to introduce skills that would have been covered had the student practised MJ, it all comes down to the individual and not their background.

[Paul F]

.....MJ is the best way to start dancing - any kind of partner dancing. But I have no experience in polka so if anyone wants to tell me they have the experience to disagree with that then that's fair enough.


Bouzouki dancing all the way!

Ya da da, ya da da....

:nice:

[David Bailey]

And I say this is a stretch that I can't imagine being true
Well maybe you've got no imagination then :na:

Seriously, are you saying that you honestly can't imagine any possible scenario where learning MJ can be a disadvantage in some ways?

You've never encountered - for example - a hotshot know-it-all intermediate who's convinced he / she knows everything, and who is almost impossible to teach anything to?


I appreciate in theory everything's possible: in practice it is so unlikely that I think you're just disagreeing for the sake of it here. :rolleyes:
No, I'm just saying that it's a point of view - in fact, I don't agree with it, I personally think the advantages outweigh the problems - but I defend Mikey's right to say it.

[Caro]

The seperation of MJ and no dance background is largely irrelevant IMO. From experience I have found it is down to the individual and the way in which they accept, process and execute instruction.


thanks Paul that's interesting.

So if you had two students, with a similar willingness to learn and similar abilities at processing and executing instructions, which one do you think may dance the basics wcs moves to an acceptable standard faster: the MJ-er or the complete beginner ?
It's a genuine question :flower:

[robd]

If Mikey R gets these folks through the door for first thing he has to do is to stop them talking over his teaching.

This may have a large bearing on Mikey's view - I know Lee tears his (non-existent) hair out at times when teaching as people in the class talk amongst themselves rather than concentrating on what he is saying and I can see that a typical Ceroc/MJ night does nothing to make people think that this is unusual and/or disrespectful behaviour (I think Andy McG has been a honourable exception to the rule here) which may explain part of Mikey's reasoning but ultimately it's down to individuals not MJers as some homogenous group.

[Paul F]

thanks Paul that's interesting.

So if you had two students, with a similar willingness to learn and similar abilities at processing and executing instructions, which one do you think may dance the basics wcs moves to an acceptable standard faster: the MJ-er or the complete beginner ?
It's a genuine question :flower:

Its a good question.

The only answer I could possibly give is that there is no predictable outcome.

The problem comes with the "2 similar people" part of the question. This is a paradox. I cannot assume there could ever be 2 similar people.

IF, and this is a huge IF, it was scientifically possible to find 2 people that, on a physiological and mental level, were an identical person (learning experiences, physical abilities, fitness etc etc) and the only thing that differs is that one of them has done MJ for 5 years or so then, and only then, would I say that it would maybe be slightly easier for the MJ'er.
My reasoning for this would be that they will have held a partners hand before and will know not to dig their thumb in. Bizarre example but it is the smallest thing i could think of. :nice:

There are just too many variables to suggest who could dance to a reasonable level faster. I know what you mean by your question but, in reality, each person is unique.
It is up to the teacher to work with a person and build on what they know or, more accurately, what they think they know!

[Caro]

Well maybe you've got no imagination then :na:

Seriously, are you saying that you honestly can't imagine any possible scenario where learning MJ can be a disadvantage in some ways?


Oh I can imagine many. But it would involve individual's behaviour rather than anything else. Don't get me wrong: there are disadvantages in learning MJ then WCS - I just don't think they're anywhere as numerous or serious as learning WCS out of the blue.


You've never encountered - for example - a hotshot know-it-all intermediate who's convinced he / she knows everything, and who is almost impossible to teach anything to?


Of course, but then, that's down to an individual. That's hardly representative of MJ-ers as a group, which is what MikeyR has singled out.

So, again to clarify, my opinion is that MJ-ers, with the good and bad apples, are easier to teach WCS than complete beginners, with the (same - except for the intermediate know-it-all who will only materialise in this group after a few lessons) good and bad apples.

[Caro]

IF, and this is a huge IF, it was scientifically possible to find 2 people that, on a physiological and mental level, were an identical person (learning experiences, physical abilities, fitness etc etc) and the only thing that differs is that one of them has done MJ for 5 years or so then, and only then, would I say that it would maybe be slightly easier for the MJ'er.


oh, really ? :innocent:;)

[Paul F]

oh, really ? :innocent:;)

But this would never happen. :nice:

How good was the MJer?

What habits did they have?

Did they pay attention during their MJ classes?


There are just too many variables to classify MJ vs NON MJ. Some freak of science comparison of identical person vs identical person, yes :) , but MJ vs NON MJ? Cannot make that distinction.

[David Bailey]

So, again to clarify, my opinion is that MJ-ers, with the good and bad apples, are easier to teach WCS than complete beginners, with the (same - except for the intermediate know-it-all who will only materialise in this group after a few lessons) good and bad apples.
Yes, that's my opinion too.

But that's not what you said - you said:

I can't possibly believe that complete beginners who have no dance background whatsoever would be easier to teach than MJ-ers.
Can you possibly believe it now?

I'm not asking you to believe it, I'm just asking you not to dismiss someone's opinion as "impossible to believe".

[Caro]

Can you possibly believe it now?

I'm not asking you to believe it, I'm just asking you not to dismiss someone's opinion as "impossible to believe".

oh for Christ sake I'm not making my point that ambiguously ! :rolleyes:

I can believe one particular individual beginner might be easier to teach than one particular MJ-er.
I believe a random group (if there was such a thing) of a sufficient size of MJ-ers would be easier to teach than a random group of a sufficient size of beginners. Therefore I disagree with the oppposite stance (Mike's) until I read convincing enough arguments to change my mind.


clear now ? :rolleyes:

[David Bailey]

oh for Christ sake I'm not making my point that ambiguously ! :rolleyes:
As if :whistle:

Let me try to make my point with equal clarity.

Stating that a person's opinion is "ridiculous", or "inconceivable", just because you happen to disagree with that opinion, is unreasonable.

[Martin]

As if :whistle:

Let me try to make my point with equal clarity.

Stating that a person's opinion is "ridiculous", or "inconceivable", just because you happen to disagree with that opinion, is unreasonable.


Now David, don't be so ridiculous... :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[bigdjiver]

I have found that learning MJ is a handicap to learning MJ. Comes the intermediate lesson and we go into some variation of a beginner move I have to fight "muscle memory" to learn the class. Simple things like changing hands throw me. It is something I never do in freestyle. Human beings are not well designed to unlearn.

[JiveLad]

As if :whistle:

Let me try to make my point with equal clarity.

Stating that a person's opinion is "ridiculous", or "inconceivable", just because you happen to disagree with that opinion, is unreasonable.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

George Bernard Shaw

[Minnie M]

There is a difference between dancing MJ in a slot (even with WCS moves) and true WCS with anchor steps etc etc

Unfortunately many MJ dancers do not know the difference when they first learn, thus making them harder to teach than complete novices. It was certainly the hardest thing for me to get into my head when I first learnt.

However, on the plus side, at least they are half way there !

Back on thread track - In the days when some MJ dancers moved over to Lindy, the popular style in those days was Savoy, knees bent, relax body (even bum sticking out with some guys) etc., thus making it much more difficult for the some MJ to grasp PLUS the fast swing music didn't help :what:

At least with WCS most of the music lends itself to both styles :clap:

[TA Guy]

LOL.

Anyone who has danced with first timers in MJ beginner classes knows exactly what problems that group of people 'off the street' being to learning to dance.

I just find it bizarre someone could argue they are easier to teach WCS to than a group of more experienced MJ'ers.

I mean, I realize bad habits are sometimes harder to undo than learning from scratch, but even so.... given that, it might help to hear what 'bad habits' we're talking about... ?

[NZ Monkey]

No, I'm just saying that it's a point of view - in fact, I don't agree with it, I personally think the advantages outweigh the problems - but I defend Mikey's right to say it.I defend his right to say it too - I just don't think actually doing so is advisable in this situation.

[Caro]

Stating that a person's opinion is "ridiculous", or "inconceivable", just because you happen to disagree with that opinion, is unreasonable.

Now, really, show me where I have actually qualified Mike's opinion as 'ridiculous' or 'inconceivable'. I said 'I can't possibly imagine why' (hence opening the door for Mike to present his arguments), i.e. I am stating my opinion and not making any sweeping statement or trying to qualify Mike's opinion in any way.

So not only you got a PhD in splitting hairs, you're now also either manipulating my posts or making a point being particularly obtuse ? Not sure which one I prefer :what:

[David Bailey]

Now, really, show me where I have actually qualified Mike's opinion as 'ridiculous' or 'inconceivable'. I said 'I can't possibly imagine why' (hence opening the door for Mike to present his arguments), i.e. I am stating my opinion and not making any sweeping statement or trying to qualify Mike's opinion in any way.

So not only you got a PhD in splitting hairs, you're now also either manipulating my posts or making a point being particularly obtuse ? Not sure which one I prefer :what:

To which I can only answer :na:

[Caro]

To which I can only answer :na:

that's what I thought... :rolleyes:

waste of keyboard time, that's what you are ;)

[David Bailey]

Christ, Caro, can't you give it a rest? :mad:

OK, seeing as you seem to want to take this OT, who am I to stop you...


Now, really, show me where I have actually qualified Mike's opinion as 'ridiculous' or 'inconceivable'. I said 'I can't possibly imagine why' (hence opening the door for Mike to present his arguments)
No, hence closing the door, by dismissing the argument as not worth discussing.

, i.e. I am stating my opinion and not making any sweeping statement or trying to qualify Mike's opinion in any way.
No, you were stating it "as fact".

If you'd said "How can it possibly be that...?", that would be opening the door. You didn't state that, so you weren't.


So not only you got a PhD in splitting hairs, you're now also either manipulating my posts or making a point being particularly obtuse ? Not sure which one I prefer :what:
Here's a suggestion - let's avoid the the abuse, huh? :angry:

[Caro]

No, you were stating it "as fact".


:what:
Let me single out the relevant bits in my previous posts, in case you were reading something else altogether...


I can't possibly believe...
...

but I can't imagine they would...

... I can understand MJ-ers might be the more demanding pupils...



And I say this is a stretch that I can't imagine being true
...
I suggest you leave MikeyR clarify his position :na: - it would in fact be interesting to hear what in his teacher experience makes MJ-ers so hard to teach (Mike?).




...there are disadvantages in learning MJ then WCS - I just don't think they're anywhere as numerous or serious as learning WCS out of the blue.
...
So, again to clarify, my opinion is ...



Therefore I disagree with the oppposite stance (Mike's) until I read convincing enough arguments to change my mind.


Where are the facts instead of the opinions and the qualifying of Mike's comment as ridiculous exactly ? :confused:

As for the obtuse comment I would have thought it clear that I was expressing surprise and looking for unexpected explanations, having never thought of you that way through this forum. Hence my total incomprehension as to why you've decided to make me say things I haven't - if I could think of a sensible reason why, I'd say you're trying to wind me up, or trying to get Mike and I to have a popcorn moment, which I am not interested in having.

So who's abusing who exactly ?

I'll leave that utterly sterile conversation with you right now - I'm not interested in proving any further that you are, deliberately or not, misreading and trying to manipulate my posts for what I can only imagine be the sake of entertainment. Hope you had fun :what:



However, Mike, I'm still genuinely interested to read about your experience with teaching MJ-ers. :flower:

[fletch]

(even bum sticking out with some guys) :clap:

'H' cums to mind :drool:


sorry back to the serious stuff, I driffed off, are we up to 6 yet :confused:


1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6

a question ? i'm quitte good a multi tasking but I find it hard to count and ask my lead where and how long they have been dancing, there name, boy's girl's or both :confused:


1&2&3&4&5&6

lalalalalala

[mikeyr]

What, you think AT-ers are less exclusive? Rubbish, they're much more snooty than any wussy friendly cuddly WCS scene could ever be, believe me.

MikeyR wasn't saying "I hate MJers", he was just expressing his honest opinion about some difficulties he was having teaching MJers. Now, this may reflect his teaching approach, it may reflect genuine objective problems in "transitioning", or it may be plain wrong.

But I'd rather he expressed an opinion which we can debate, instead of being jumped-on for daring to say something not entirely fluffy and positive.

And this isn't a forum for promoting WCS events - although sometimes that's difficult to remember. So "being diplomatic" is not required.

Sorry for not being around to take part in this "discussion".

Firstly, I want to say that I came to WCS from Modern Jive which I danced for 5 or 6 years and albeit some time ago now, a couple of years that time was teaching regular classes and workshops.

How Long have I been dancing WCS, as a Leader 10 mths as a follower 2 mths. I have been involved with teaching the basics of WCS for about 5 months (because people have asked me to).

What is the objective of the Trent Park venue - To provide a friendly, nuturing atmosphere in which to Learn to dance WCS(But not in one evening).


My crime? To venture that opinion MJers are harder to teach WSC to than non dancers? Or to write and submit a post that was a little too generalised ? I will let the reader make up there own mind.


Before I try to qualify my opinion, I will do a little Pop Quiz. Is there anyone out there in Forumland that either runs a WCS venue, teaches at a WCS venue or frequents a regular WCS class that has ever seen me sit out or not partake in, a beginners lesson at a class or workshop weekend ?

Why ? Well I will let you make your own mind up on that too!

To qualify my opinion. It is based, purely on my limited experience! But could it be that because my years doing MJ and my transition gives me a little better understanding of the problems?

Also as with MJ learning it and teaching it are not the same thing. it seems to me that a lot of those comments are coming from those who learn. In theory, Yes I agree somebody with dance experience should be easier to teach, not necessarily bourne out in practise.

If I was to venture a reason, I would suggest attitude more than anything else. Why? Again IMHO MJ has sold well because it easy to learn to do(though not all do, do they?) and provides a large social element, the basics are very basic and to progress above the "Intermediate" really one must search out themselves.

WCS, just like many other dances, is not easy to learn and even harder to perfect. Iam sure those other dances just like WCS get their fair share MJers who turn up and get frustrated because it is just not as easy. It is fact that whilst WCS is largely very different, some of the patterns look very similar, the music that is used in the dance is used in MJ, which seems to lead most people to think they can pick it up just as easily. The non dancers
who come back on a regular basis seem to pick it up quicker, that has been my experience!

It is a major part of Trent Parks mission Statement to provide a positive friendly environment in which to learn this dance because not everybody learns at the same pace and we believe the learning process should be a positive one.

I understand that most people on here have never met me and so a post on here is how you will judge me! But to those that have met me, danced either MJ or WCS with me, do you really think I have an elitist attitude about WCS?
:D You notice I qualified that comment:whistle::what:

[Maxine]

I understand that most people on here have never met me and so a post on here is how you will judge me! But to those that have met me, danced either MJ or WCS with me, do you really think I have an elitist attitude about WCS?
:D You notice I qualified that comment:whistle::what:

I have been to about 5 lessons at Trent Park. Mike has been really encouraging, helpful and very welcoming, although I’m not sure if he is smiling when he dances with me or grimacing. I have been very surprised by how hard I have found it and the worst part is being a beginner again and the feeling of complete ineptness

[Amir]

The first time I learnt a foreign language took me a long time. I wasted too much time and mental energy questioning what I thought was ridiculous about the language. Plus I wasted time being frustrated at not being able to talk fluently. At 'being a beginner again'.

The second time I learnt another language I simply accepted that every language has its own idyosyncracies, and got on with learning it. I'll still have chuckle about things that seem weird to me (like that in French to say '95' you have to say 'four twenties and fifteen') but then I just accept it. I'm also confident that eventually I'll be as fluent as I need to be, and am patient with myself.

I know lindy hop teachers who have also said they notice Modern Jivers take longer to learn than non-dancers. I think its a similar case of questioning and frustration that holds them back. The good thing is, it doesn't have to. If you assume that your modern jive won't help you, ironically it might. Otherwise, it seems in some cases to actually get in the way.

But the single biggest reason that stops modern jivers from getting good at wcs has nothing to do with technique or bad habits. And sadly, it often happens with those that show a lot of potential.

They give up.

[TA Guy]

I have been very surprised by how hard I have found it and the worst part is being a beginner again and the feeling of complete ineptness

Your not the only one to find this, but I gotta say, one of the things I love about learning WCS is the fact that I am (relatively) inept at it. The challenge is back!!!
I also like being a beginner again, the learning of new skills and being part of that group feeling 'we are all in this together' type of thing.

I miss all that from the early MJ days, and whilst I wouldn't want to always be in this boat (cos there is a lot of pluses about being, forgive me, a competant MJ dancer as well :)), I making darn sure I am enjoying it now! :)

[David Bailey]

But the single biggest reason that stops modern jivers from getting good at wcs has nothing to do with technique or bad habits. And sadly, it often happens with those that show a lot of potential.

They give up.

Excellent point.:clap:

Because we have a "easy" alternative to fall back on, Modern Jive, it's sometimes harder to force ourselves to learn something than if we had no options available.

For example, I've only really started progressing in AT over the past 6-9 months, when I simply decided to stop going to MJ. Before that, I was simply adding tango stuff to my MJ.

Of course, now I've probably gone backwards with my MJ, but hopefully my overall dance progression compensates for that to a degree.

Similarly, I suspect MJ-ers will generally only really progress with WCS if they divorce it from MJ, and focus on it.

[straycat]

I know lindy hop teachers who have also said they notice Modern Jivers take longer to learn than non-dancers. I think its a similar case of questioning and frustration that holds them back. The good thing is, it doesn't have to. If you assume that your modern jive won't help you, ironically it might. Otherwise, it seems in some cases to actually get in the way.

Without miraculously winding back the clock and doing this differently I cannot be sure, but in recent years I've had cause to believe that this is exactly what happened with me - and I didn't truly progress in Lindy until I made the realisation that my assumption that Lindy was just MJ with a different set of moves was, in fact, a nonsense - and that my MJ 'skills' were hindering more than helping.

In some ways, it seems like I wasted a lot of time this way, but on reflection, I don't regret this one iota... because without MJ, I doubt I'd ever have started Lindy.


But the single biggest reason that stops modern jivers from getting good at wcs has nothing to do with technique or bad habits. And sadly, it often happens with those that show a lot of potential.

They give up.
To which I pose the question: Why?
Do they decided that it's insufficiently rewarding, and that MJ gives them all they need?
Is it that they find it too difficult?
Is it the afore-mentioned I-thought-I-was-a-good-dancer-and-suddenly-I-feel-useless-again syndrome?

And is there anything that WCS / Lindy / whatever teachers could (or should) do to help alleviate this?

[mikeyr]

I have been to about 5 lessons at Trent Park. Mike has been really encouraging, helpful and very welcoming, although I’m not sure if he is smiling when he dances with me or grimacing. I have been very surprised by how hard I have found it and the worst part is being a beginner again and the feeling of complete ineptness

It's smiling Maxine, trust me it just looks like that cos Iam trying to keep my top set in :blush:

It's knowing how you and many other MJers feel (my personal experiences included) trying learn WCS that we take the approach we do and even though complete newbies dont have that "I am feel like I am going back to square one" feeling its still a pretty daunting prospect being the new person at a dance class. We aim to make the learning process a pleasant one, cos not for everyone is it an easy one.

[Gerry]

To which I pose the question: Why?
Do they decided that it's insufficiently rewarding, and that MJ gives them all they need?
Is it that they find it too difficult?
Is it the afore-mentioned I-thought-I-was-a-good-dancer-and-suddenly-I-feel-useless-again syndrome?


I decided to try WCS because I was finding the music at MJ events far to bouncy and it all sounded very similiar, if I want to hear clubby music I would go to a club. My real preference for club music would be Soul, Jazz and Modern crossover from Northern Soul. There are a number of very small clubs that play this type of music.

The WCS music is considerably more interest and varied.

The actual skills within WCS are considerable. The dancers that know me well know that I play down my ability and personally I don't feel that I am a great dancer, I feel that I have two left feet BUT iam getting better. This is due to
a) Going to a lot more WCS events,
b) Not going to so many MJ events, I still need my fix and I would never stop, it has been alarge part of my life and I wouldn't be where I am without it.
c) Some private lessons

In the last two years I have seen many dancers that I consider as advanced MJ'ivers who have come along and left fairly quickly, I believe it is due to them not enjoying the fact that they are beginners again.

The guys and gals that have kept going are finding it easier, its hard work but its rewards are immense

Lastly thankyou to all the great followers who have given me so much praise and help over the last two years, without you guys I would have given up aswell:respect:

[mikeyr]

The first time I learnt a foreign language ~Snip~

And sadly, it often happens with those that show a lot of potential. They give up.



Because we have a "easy" alternative to fall back on, Modern Jive, it's sometimes harder to force ourselves to learn something than if we had no options available. ~Snip~

Similarly, I suspect MJ-ers will generally only really progress with WCS if they divorce it from MJ, and focus on it.



In some ways, it seems like I wasted a lot of time this way, but on reflection, I don't regret this one iota... because without MJ, I doubt I'd ever have started Lindy.

And is there anything that WCS / Lindy / whatever teachers could (or should) do to help alleviate this?

Gentlemen. Thankyou! youve put it so much more eloquently than I ever could.

I try to understand what hurdles there are to the learning process. I beleive Environment is key. Peoples background so that we can better contextualise, Lindy/Salsa/MJ/Ballroom/Linedance all have different terms of reference how can I relate to them, Passionate for what you do, a hope to inspire! And Iam interested growing my local community a bit at a time, World domination, we can do that tomorrow!

[straycat]

I decided to try WCS because I was finding the music at MJ events far to bouncy and it all sounded very similiar, if I want to hear clubby music I would go to a club. My real preference for club music would be Soul, Jazz and Modern crossover from Northern Soul. There are a number of very small clubs that play this type of music.

The WCS music is considerably more interest and varied.

This one intrigues me also... it's just that in my (perhaps limited) understanding, if it works well for WCS, it'll work well for MJ. Although not necessarily the other way around.
So if WCS music is indeed more interesting and varied, is that because my understanding is wrong, or because your local venues are not serving the best music that MJ DJing has to offer?

[Gerry]

My favorite venue is Utopia, the DJ's play a varied selection of tracks but I would say they keep well away from the clubby bouncy Ceroc tracks. I am able to dance as a MJ'iver or WCS at will, I find that I am trying to bring into my MJ some of the WCS moves that I have learn't, usually I need to trty and get the girl / follower top move in a straight line for these to work.

Having danced extensively around the MJ curcuit I have found that most of the Ceroc venues play similiar tracks. There are a few exceptions, big ups to John Baker and Oxo:cheers::yeah:

Lastly at MJ events you will only find a few tracks that are WCSable but invariable you are asked to dance by somebody who wants to practice and these tracks are two quick for them ( and more importantly ME:sad:)

[TA Guy]

I can understand the problem of MJ'ers who get frustrated at WCS being harder than MJ and leaving. It seems to be a common thing at all WCS venues....

But it sounds a bit wishy washy as the reason to prefer to teach non-MJ'ers. *shrug*
If the MJ'ers get frustrated and leave, how does that make teaching harder ? I'd have thought it makes teaching easier because surely your left with those MJ'er and others who really want to learn ?

The only problem would be if MJ'ers got frustrated, stayed and maybe got a bit disruptive in some way. Does that happen ? Sounds a bit far fetched, but I guess not everyone is as well behaved as us Soton lot :whistle:

[Gerry]

Mj'ivers have lots of bad habits, here are some examples of what I have found, please note I am not saying this happens with everyone, I don't want to tar every one with the same brush

Some followers tend to go on the 1 when they have not been been led because this is what they do within MJ. Some followers when they are trying to move their centre back on the 6& will tend to try and pull the tendons out of the leaders arm because they are trying to lean backwards with all their might

Some leaders tend to pull with their arm rather than body lead, obviously this is what they have learnt in MJ abut it does take along time to unlearn, some leaders tend to continue to move down the slot after the follower on 5&6 rather than posting.

As no real foot work is learnt within MJ, most jivers (especially the men)will find it really hard to triple step. After two years I still find it really difficult.:mad:

[Lynn]

This one intrigues me also... it's just that in my (perhaps limited) understanding, if it works well for WCS, it'll work well for MJ. Although not necessarily the other way around.I've been surprised at what you can WCS to. OK it may not have the 'vibe' - some tracks just say 'WCS' to me - but you can WCS to a lot of stuff that people MJ to.

Though this could be because I'm doing WCS for fun (as no classes to go to) and am happy to dance to faster tracks - also am not getting led in any really complicated patterns so its easier to make them work at faster speeds.

This does mean, however, that I get to dance WCS every week at my local MJ venue.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I have not had any proper WCS lessons. Everything I have learnt is from Youtube, The Jordan & Tatiana weekend at the Royal Oak and at Southport. Unfortunatly, with the nearest WCS class an hour and a half away on a day I have commitments on, I find it really hard to get any WCS exposure.

On the other hand, I have a lindy class at the bottom of my road, one 15 minutes away, a handfull of others scattered within a ten mile radius and the brilliant Neil and Rena around the corner.

I expect this is the case with alot of MJ'ers who want to try a different form of dance. How many WCS teachers are there now? Im guessing around 20 (worth their salt anyway). How many Lindy Teachers? Prob up in the 100's

I have had much more exposure to Lindy than WCS for the reasons stated above however I have found that WCS has influanced my MJ more than Lindy has for the simple reason I prefer it and the music played at MJ events is more likely to suit WCS styles than Lindy Styles.

Is it harder to teach someone from a MJ background than WCS background? I guess it would depend on their MJ background and the way they have been taught. If they have been taught big bouncing rock steps, Over rotation and to yank women in, then I would imagine it is a nightmare to get them out of them habits, esp if they have been doing it that way for 5 years and think they are Gods gift to dance.

If you have a MJ'er that has had alot of Utopia/Blues room experiance, has had good tuition and is open to being taught, then it would be easeir to teach them than the average man off the street.

I will take RobD as an example of a MJ I have watched transfer over to WCS. I don't see Rob day in day out. Only at the odd weekender. When I first met him He was a pure Mj'er. An ok one at that.

When I saw him at a southport weekender doing WCS he did look alittle bouncy with it and you could see the MJ habits of over turning and stuff in there.

He stuck with it and now when I watch him do WCS (his prefered dance now I think) he looks great with it and one of the better WCS'ers out there.

He has only been able to do this due to preserverance, a willing to learn and good teaching.

(sorry for using you as an example Rob but you were the best example of an MJ'er turning in to a great WCS'er I could think of :flower:)

[Maxine]

Your not the only one to find this, but I gotta say, one of the things I love about learning WCS is the fact that I am (relatively) inept at it. The challenge is back!!!
I also like being a beginner again, the learning of new skills and being part of that group feeling 'we are all in this together' type of thing.

I miss all that from the early MJ days, and whilst I wouldn't want to always be in this boat (cos there is a lot of pluses about being, forgive me, a competant MJ dancer as well :)), I making darn sure I am enjoying it now! :)
Just read your response to my post and I must say I like that kind of positive thinking and shall rethink my attitude to enjoy the challenge, as I usually thrive on challenges, rather than focus on the more negative feelings of being a beginner.
So thanks:nice:

[robd]

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local community


I know this is a little bit pot stirring Mikey but, given your comment above I had to smile when I saw the promo for April 11th (http://www.danceswinguk.com/aprill11_back.pdf) and the introductory discounts for members of various MJ organisations :rolleyes:

[David Franklin]

I had to smile when I saw the promo for April 11th (http://www.danceswinguk.com/aprill11_back.pdf) and the introductory discounts for members of various MJ organisations :rolleyes:Seeing as this thread has been resurrected...

Around a year ago, I seem to recall(*) you saying about WCS something along the lines of "When does it start becoming fun?".

Seeing as you still seem to be involved in the scene, I assume things got better. So, when did it start becoming fun?

(*) Of course, if my memory is playing tricks on me, this might just be the most pointless thread evar...

[Jivejunkie]

Despite Lindy being around at least 40 years longer than both MJ and WCS, I have to admit that there is nowhere near the following that they have, or the availability.

I can do MJ every day of the week and not have to travel anymore than about 25 miles, and although I have only been aware of WCS for a couple of years, I could easily find that if I wanted to. But as for Lindy, which for me is far more appealing than the other two, the closest I ever can get is one venue on the other side of Birmingham, which starts before I could get there even if I went straight from work, and then for some reason operates in 'Term-time' - so subsequently never been, and my experience has only been on a couple of Ceroc weekenders.

In answer to the original thread, WCS has a much larger profile than Lindy (in my neck of the woods anyway) so unfortunately (:whistle: no disrespect to the WCS'ers) I can't see it fading into obscurity any time soon :waycool:

[robd]

Seeing as this thread has been resurrected...

Around a year ago, I seem to recall(*) you saying about WCS something along the lines of "When does it start becoming fun?".

Seeing as you still seem to be involved in the scene, I assume things got better. So, when did it start becoming fun?

(*) Of course, if my memory is playing tricks on me, this might just be the most pointless thread evar...

Hmm, I don't recall(*) posting anything like that and I certainly don't recall feeling anything like that.

I've always had fun at WCS even when I have struggled with it. Getting past the point of counting aloud is a big milestone and allows you to relax a lot more. This is why I advise new dancers to

a - really, really drum your fundamentals in and not just think of them as 5 moves - they give you that base to always fall back upon when struggling with more advanced material/variations/timing
b - dance it as much as you can socially. I see quite a few men who do a lot of classes and then never stick around for the social. For followers it can be trickier as the gender balance can be skewed against them (and men leaving soon after class doesn't help here either)

as both these will move ppl forward towards not needing to count aloud.

(*) Though I have a pretty good memory, I am now on 3000+ posts so am bound to have forgotten some stuff I have written

[Chef]

Seeing as this thread has been resurrected...

Around a year ago, I seem to recall(*) you saying about WCS something along the lines of "When does it start becoming fun?".

Seeing as you still seem to be involved in the scene, I assume things got better. So, when did it start becoming fun?

(*) Of course, if my memory is playing tricks on me, this might just be the most pointless thread evar...

Dave. About a year ago I was the person that said "when does it start becoming fun" and a whole thread blew up about my feelings (just after the last Weston weekend) that I had tried my best and really should just give up trying.

Well I have kept with it and it has become fun. What allowed it to become fun for me was having a club start up where I could get to it once a week for lessons and social dancing and sunday nights for purely social dancing. Being able to get to weekly classes and the hugely social atmosphere of the Petts Wood club meant that I could relax and enjoy it.

Before this my exposure was limited to monthly workshops and in reality I had only got one months experience 24 times instead of two years experience. There was no opportunity between the workshops to embed and refine what I had been taught.

I have just read RobDs post. I was one of those people who didn't stick around after the workshops for the social dancing. My reason - I had been on the road since 10am to get to the workshop, had my brain fried after three hours of lessons, and then be lucky to get home again by 7:30pm ro get ready for a new days work. One day WCS will move closer to where I live but that day is not here yet.

[robd]

What allowed it to become fun for me was having a club start up where I could get to it once a week for lessons and social dancing and sunday nights for purely social dancing.

I definitely recognise that. For me, the single biggest push forward for my WCS was Paul Harris beginning weekly classes plus 1hr of social within reasonable travelling distance.

[Minnie M]

Despite Lindy being around at least 40 years longer than both MJ and WCS, I have to admit that there is nowhere near the following that they have, or the availability..........
A lot of Lindy freestyles have merged with the 40's swing/jitterbug and therefore you would be surprised how many events there are - just look at my list :clap:


I can do MJ every day of the week and not have to travel anymore than about 25 miles........

I can lindy every day of the week if I want to and most of it locally



.......In answer to the original thread, WCS has a much larger profile than Lindy (in my neck of the woods anyway) so unfortunately (:whistle: no disrespect to the WCS'ers) I can't see it fading into obscurity any time soon :waycool:

Definitely not !

Not sure where you are but I reckon I could find more Swing (as stated above) classes & dances in your area to WCS

[David Franklin]

Hmm, I don't recall(*) posting anything like that and I certainly don't recall feeling anything like that.Damn. Guess I'm no exception to that article about peaking mentally at 27...

Thanks for the reply though. For what it's worth, I completely agree with (a), but even when I was reasonably happy with my basics, I still found (b) fairly painful. (As in, yes, I could get through a dance without major mishap, but it felt like an extended litany of "don't **** up" rather than "fun"). I freely admit I didn't put in enough time, effort or dedication, however.

Chef: Thanks for your reply too. Once RobD had done a Shaggy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ4axo9rmJY), I had a feeling it might have been you, but I couldn't find the thread and didn't want to make the same mistake twice.

[Jivejunkie]

A lot of Lindy freestyles have merged with the 40's swing/jitterbug and therefore you would be surprised how many events there are - just look at my list :clap:



I can lindy every day of the week if I want to and most of it locally




Definitely not !

Not sure where you are but I reckon I could find more Swing (as stated above) classes & dances in your area to WCS


I bet you live in the South! There does appear to be a lot more Lindy around the home counties, from about Cirencester/ Gloustershire downwards but the nearest place to me is Jazz, Jive, Swing in Kings Heath, which is about 25/ 30 miles through Birmingham town Centre, so i would never be able to get there for the classes that start at 7pm on a Thursday. They also do East Coast Swing (an easier form of Lindy) every month at some village hall in Coventry, but invariably always clashes with something else.

I live in Staffordshire, so if you could help me out with something local ( within about 25 miles) I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks :waycool:

[Caro]

I definitely recognise that. For me, the single biggest push forward for my WCS was Paul Harris beginning weekly classes plus 1hr of social within reasonable travelling distance.

:yeah:
Before moving to London, I was dancing WCS every 1 to 3 months - while I was improving a lot the weekend I was dancing, I was on a downward slope as soon as I went back to bumdeennowhere.
My wcs was ok last year, but it the past year I feel it has may be not as much as sky-rocketted, but stayed in a much more engrained way. And I could feel that after just a few weeks of regular social dancing already. Now wcs is my basic way of dancing (the thing I fall back into when I don't know what to do), while trying to do MJ is taxing.

[Minnie M]

I bet you live in the South! ...../snip/......I live in Staffordshire, so if you could help me out with something local ( within about 25 miles) I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks :waycool:

Yup, I live on the south coast, and you are right there is loads in the south - however, I still think there is more lindy than WCS even in your area, will do some investigating and let you know :flower: