Standard moves involving steps

[jiveoholic]

I was wondering what ladies think about doing those regularly taught standard jive moves that involve a little concentration on the feet. I'm talking about "learned moves" such as the First move Columbian/Charleston/kicks/triple-step etc.

The questiion is whether ladies like them and like some warning!

[Stuart M]

Good timing of this thread, Richard, Mairi taught a first move variant last night with steps, and I got it to work for a change. I still can't manage penguins or the salsa step one.

Can't remember the name of last night's move, I think it was a triple step.

Despite learning it, I'll be unlikely to use it in freestyle much because:

a) I don't really believe in vocal signals (I'm a quiet speaker, so the signal would be missed too often).
b) It's hard to think of music this particular one would work with - other than a polka :what:

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Stuart M

a) I don't really believe in vocal signals (I'm a quiet speaker, so the signal would be missed too often).
b) It's hard to think of music this particular one would work with - other than a polka :what:

Sorry Stuart, I had to break my silence and reply to this one.. (check the time though... :what: )

a) Vocal signals? Maybe it was too brief (or you were busy blethering :wink: )but Mairi actually went through how to signal this move - arc the hand, down to floor, up a bit, down a bit, down a bit more, up a bit. OK so it doesn't read very well but it works when you dance it.

b) You can dance it to anything except something slow and "romantic" - it's actually the basic jive movement

As for the general theme of the thread I don't mind learning the odd move with footwork - having come to ceroc via Latin & Ballroom I'm used to learning footwork rather than following my arms.

Jayne

[SwingSwingSwing]

If this move is what I think it is (First Move Triple Steps i.e step back, step in, pivot out, triple step, triple step, rock step, and then finish as per First Move), then once you get the hang of it, you won't even need the arm movements to signal this move. All you need to do is lead the follower into putting her weight onto her right foot by keeping a firm right arm round the follower's back and (clearly) change your weight onto your left foot.

You don't need to do triple steps either, you can just do a single step.

If you can do this then you're essentially doing the "basic" move of many forms of swing dancing (East Coast Swing, West Coast Swing, Boogie Woogie, Lindy Hop, Jive etc).

Then if you keep it going and start thinking "triple step, triple step, rock step" all the time, the next thing you know you are swing dancer!

SwingSwingSwing

[LilyB]

I wanted to vote on this topic but I'm afraid I could not agree with any of the available options. How about adding a 5th option:
"I cannot do them. dislike them & do not ever want to learn them"? :(

Sorry to those of you guys who like such choreographed moves!!! :wink: And I know of many women who agree with me on this issue - then again, it might just be a London/South thing. Many of the experienced women dancers here do not go to classes but just turn up for the freestyle. Hence they are unlikely to have learnt choreographed moves and accordingly will not be able to execute (as opposed to follow) such moves when signalled by their partners. Hence the importance of GOOD leading from the men ....... (sorry, here I go again :sad: )

LilyB

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Jayne

a) Vocal signals? Maybe it was too brief (or you were busy blethering :wink: )but Mairi actually went through how to signal this move - arc the hand, down to floor, up a bit, down a bit, down a bit more, up a bit. OK so it doesn't read very well but it works when you dance it.

Must have missed it - was too busy dealing with the woman whose arms were permanently locked at right angles :tears: (A Pet Hate I'd forgot to mention!)

I got that bit later - triple step was probably a bad example. But there seem to be some step moves which simply can't be led in any other way than vocally (kick-steps?), and I don't think they should be taught IMHO.

As to footwork in general I think it's fine - but if it's part of the move, rather than for style, there should be a way to signal it visually, or by movement. There are too many things to go wrong with vocal commands (accent, music level, hearing, language...)

[Amanda]

Originally posted by LilyB
I wanted to vote on this topic but I'm afraid I could not agree with any of the available options. How about adding a 5th option:
"I cannot do them. dislike them & do not ever want to learn them"?
Agree 100% Lily. I hate them with a passion too!

Amanda

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by LilyB
I wanted to vote on this topic but I'm afraid I could not agree with any of the available options. How about adding a 5th option:
"I cannot do them. dislike them & do not ever want to learn them"? :(

LilyB

Hi Lily,

Good point. Unfortunately I do not seem to have the authority to edit the poll!

Personally, I think it is a shame that there is such a reaction against them. After jiving for 5 years, they add a bit of challenge and feel great when they work. I am also representing the views of a number of ladies that I know! Its horses for courses. Jive, when compared with other more defined dances such as Salsa and Lindy Flop, is great because the "enjoyment to effort ratio" is very high. This suites lots if not most people at jive venues. However, I see moves with steps just the same as drops and air-steps, in that they need to be taught properly and practiced. The only difference is that one does not need a higher limit on one's life insurance!

[Gus]

I may be off the mark here but isn't there a lack of clarity about what is a 'learned move'. Try doing a double pretzel with a beginner and you soon leran that maybe it isn't a totaly leadable move. I think there is a difference betweensomething you need to have sort of seen before and a move that is totaly choreographed.

Tripple steps, columbian, open moves and catapult walks are all leadable after a fashion and after gently 'encouraging' your partner in the right steps, then become leadable. Its a bit different to doing the full reverse charleston or a basket tiger feet combo with surprise lean (don't ask!).

Fair comment?

[SpinDoctor]

Originally posted by Gus
"a basket tiger feet combo with surprise lean (don't ask!).";) I'm just imagining trying to give a vocal warning for that one!

Dave.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
I may be off the mark here but isn't there a lack of clarity about what is a 'learned move'. Try doing a double pretzel with a beginner and you soon leran that maybe it isn't a totaly leadable move. I think there is a difference betweensomething you need to have sort of seen before and a move that is totaly choreographed.Good point. If leading and following were so easy, then you should never have to show the ladies anything. You just need to tell the men how to lead a move, and all the ladies should be able to follow.
But we all know it's not that easy.
There are very few moves that are completely leadable. First move is the only one I can think of.
There are moves that we lead, but the lady has to know a bit more to follow. eg an american spin (i think Ceroc call it a push spin??) How does the lady know to spin, and not step back, or just let her arm go back?
There are lots of moves where the man leads into something, and expects the lady to do certain things that he hasn't explicitly led. A comb is a perfect example - where is the lead for the lady to slide her hand down the mans arm?
Then there are the 'obvious' signals, where you put your spare hand out and expect the lady to take it (eg pretzel).
You get some that are less obvious - like the neck break. You put your hand out, but you are not after the lady's spare hand - you are going to change your own hands. How is the lady supposed to know without going to a class?
You get a lot of signals that have absolutely no relation to the move.
You get verbal leads.
And you can have completely choreographed routines.
I don't like verbal leads. And I only like choreographed routines in shows.
I like lead and follow dancing. I don't like signals. But I'm not 100% sure where the dividing line is. Question - is a yoyo leadable? if it a lead or a signal that tells the difference between a yoyo and a hatchback? Is it a lead or assumed knowledge that makes the lady turn in the direction you want?

David

[Heather]

:wink: :wink: If all this is not evidence that us women are the superior, intelligent sex , I don't know what is!!!!!!!!!!!!:D :D
We can even manage to follow some men whose 'lead 'is barely imperceptable!!!!!!:wink:
Of course, you lads obviously do not fall into that category!!
Yes we do have to learn the moves in class, otherwise we'd have to rely on our psychic powers to know what to do, but quite frequently, we have to follow the lead for moves we have never come across before(and still manage) This happens when you dance with guys from places other than your own home class. Different teachers must have their own favourite moves, routines etc that they like to teach. Eg, a lot of the Glasgow guys do a few pretty neat moves that I have never done before in Dundee.
Then there are the guys who bother to go along to workshops and learn even more interesting moves, then come back and try them out on you! :what: :what:
Of course there are some of our ladies who can now dance the male part as well and sometimes even better than some of the men themselves (Sheena and Denise from Edinburgh for example).
On Friday after our Dundee party, some of us ended up at an improptu party back at Sherwin's flat, where some of the men( who shall remain nameless to preserve their dignity ) were challenged to dance as a lady. I have never laughed so much in my life!!!!!:D :D These guys are all really good dancers, but were hard pressed to cope!!!!
This all goes to prove my earlier point:wink: :wink:
' Wha's like us , damn few and they're a' deid'.
Looking forward to meeting you at the Scottish Champs, sorry Competition!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe Sheena will throw down the gauntlet and challenge you to dance as a woman!!:wink: :wink:

[John S]

Originally posted by Heather
On Friday after our Dundee party, some of us ended up at an improptu party back at Sherwin's flat, where some of the men( who shall remain nameless to preserve their dignity ) were challenged to dance as a lady. I have never laughed so much in my life!!!!!:D :D These guys are all really good dancers, but were hard pressed to cope!!!!

Gee thanks, Heather, I'm glad you're not naming names - great policy, I won't either - :sorry :sick: :sorry :sick:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Heather
Looking forward to meeting you at the Scottish Champs, sorry CompetitionYou could always suggest this as a fun competition on the day - "Stranger a with Dance" - ie dance with a stranger, but the wrong way round!

Which is harder - leading or following?

At first they are both impossible!

After a couple of classes, then leading is harder. You have to think in advance of a step to lead, and make sure you have the correct hand, while still trying to lead the current move. All the lady has to worry about is the current move.

But once a man has got his standard moves that he can do in his sleep, he doesn't have to learn anything completely new. (Of course he should still learn how to do them properly!) However his partner has to be able to do these moves, the way he leads them. Then the next dance she has a different partner, with different moves, and different ways of leading them. From here on in, it is the lady that has the harder job.

I'm not very good at following, but I would love to try if Sheena or Denise don't mind dancing with a beginner!

David

[Tiggerbabe]

Thanks very much Heather but I think you over-rate my ability to lead - Denise is much better than me, I am very much still on the learning curve.

I would love to try and lead you David B, as long as you don't mind dancing with a beginner either:cheers:

I totally agree it is much harder to lead than follow - I did find it funny on Friday that the same guys who complain about ladies turning the wrong way when the signals are so clear:confused: were doing it themselves (your secret is safe John S:wink: ). I feel confident now in leading the beginner's moves but I still struggle with my limited repertoire of intermediate ones. It's not that I don't know them - they just escape from my head when I'm doing freestyle, also there seems to be a lack of simultaneous co-ordination between my brain and my hands which usually means I'm holding the wrong hand for the move I wanted to do :tears: :tears:

I think the answer is to practice a bit more - I really don't dance often enough as a man but the problem is I like being a girl too:D

[Tiggerbabe]

Sorry Amanda and Lily but I do like moves with footwork.

I've done a limited amount of WCS and even less Lindy but I think it can make things much more interesting if the dance has one or two of these type of moves thrown in. I know verbal signals are not really the thing but it can help if your partner gives you some warning of what he expects you to do - it's either that or the lady takes an extra beat or two to figure out exactly what she is supposed to do.

Usually it is only the guys who know you who will do these type of moves. The blokes who also go to WCS for example or someone you met at a particular workshop.

I would agree that there are moves that really aren't leadable eg the first move kicks as your partner has to tell you to kick too or you would end up with black and blue shins. I like the odd colombian (every other week or two! not every dance!) and am quite partial to a lunge as well - how do you lead that without talking?
A quiet word is enough though - it isn't nice just to be shouted at:what: :confused:

[Heather]

:wink: :wink: Sheena you are far too modest!!!!!!!
You are a far better male lead than some of the men!! Honest!!!!:wink: (And I'm not just saying that because you're my pal). :D :D Mind you , you're no half bad at being a woman either!!!!!!!

[SwingSwingSwing]

Originally posted by Sheena
I would agree that there are moves that really aren't leadable eg the first move kicks as your partner has to tell you to kick too or you would end up with black and blue shins. I like the odd colombian (every other week or two! not every dance!) and am quite partial to a lunge as well - how do you lead that without talking?
Sheena

I used to think First Move Kicks were only leadable with a verbal signal until I started Lindy Hop.
The secret to it is that leader every so slightly "lifts" the follower to get the first kick going. The "lift" is done by the leader standing straighter than usual when starting the first kick. If he (or she!) has the follower well supported at the back then she will feel this. Raising the left hand higher than usual helps the lead too.

SwingSwingSwing

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Sheena
Sorry Amanda and Lily but I do like moves with footwork.

I've done a limited amount of WCS ... I like trying to mix moves from different dances together, as well as doing different dances within the same song. I'm wondering what sort of WCS 'footwork' moves you try in Ceroc?

David

[Emma]

I love moves with a bit (or a lot) of footwork and actually went to a Swing/Ceroc workshop yesterday designed to teach some swing moves that can be integrated with Ceroc.

Signalling kept coming up: The answer was often that 'the lady might not realise straight away but she'll generally catch up'.

Later on in the day I asked how someone would signal one the move changes, um..I can't remember the names but the first one involved kicking forwards, and the second involved kicking forwards, rotating then kicking backwards. I couldn't see how it could be signalled. Then one of the teachers did it with me, and really, I couldn't miss it. Obviously it helped that I'd been learning the move, but I didn't know when the change was coming and when firmly led it was verrry verrry obvious.

I don't see what's wrong with telling someone what move is coming up on occasion, or even what steps to do..it's supposed to be fun, not a test! :grin: An inexperienced dancer like myself can do with the occasional hint! :nice:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Emma
I don't see what's wrong with telling someone what move is coming up on occasion, or even what steps to do..it's supposed to be fun, not a test! An inexperienced dancer like myself can do with the occasional hint!Signals and verbal leads are fine as long as both you and your partner have been to the same class, and can both remember the move, and can both remember the signal. But

What if the lady doesn't see the signal, or hear the verbal lead?
What if the lady has never been to the class where you were taught the signal?
What if the lady doesn't speak english?
What if the man has such a strong accent that you can't understand?
What if moves are given different names in different parts of the country, or different countries?

I scratched my leg once while dancing - the lady thought it was a signal for a drop. And she did!

Relying on signals and verbal leads can help beginners and intermediate dancers. They are easier to learn, and easier to teach. But ultimately they are like training wheels on a bicycle - you can't advance if you keep them on. If you learn how to lead/follow, you can dance with far more people.

David

[Emma]

What if the lady doesn't see the signal, or hear the verbal lead?
..then she'll miss it. No biggie.
What if the lady has never been to the class where you were taught the signal?
I thought all Ceroc signals were the same...?
What if the lady doesn't speak english?
Then she won't understand, obviously.
What if the man has such a strong accent that you can't understand?
See above.
What if moves are given different names in different parts of the country, or different countries?
I thought Ceroc was supposed to be standardised?

I scratched my leg once while dancing - the lady thought it was a signal for a drop. And she did!
Poor her! I hope she was OK!! :grin:

Relying on signals and verbal leads can help beginners and intermediate dancers. They are easier to learn, and easier to teach. But ultimately they are like training wheels on a bicycle - you can't advance if you keep them on. If you learn how to lead/follow, you can dance with far more people.
Ceroc often relies on signals, doesn't it? How would you lead a tunnel or a neck break without the signal?

Actually, perhaps I need to clarify. When I said I liked an occasional hint I didn't mean someone barking the name of the move in my ear. That's no help to anyone (especially when it's got one of those ridiculous seven-word meaningless Ceroc names!!). Really I was thinking the rare occasion when a very good dancer leads a less experienced lady by telling her what she needs to do with her feet. This has happened to me a couple of times - someone clearly far more experienced than me has taken the trouble to tell me what I should be doing rather than bark names at me that I don't recognise or just lead me into moves that I don't know. Thus I get taught new moves whilst still enjoying the dance. Fantastic. It's what it's all about for me. :waycool:

...crikey, I didn't mean to write an essay!! :sorry

[DavidB]

This is a very personal view of dancing, and I don't expect anyone to agree with everything I say. If some men like signals, and their partners can follow them, I'm not going to stop them. It is purely my own experience that leading is more rewarding than signalling. These are my reasons why...

My main aim in dancing it to have fun. For that to happen only takes 4 things
- a reasonable floor (something between ice and glue)
- liking the music
- feeling safe (ie someone is not going to take my head off doing an aerial)
- letting my partner enjoy herself

I can't do anything about the floor, other than not go back to that venue.
I can't do much about the music unless I start DJing (way too much hassle)
If someone starts doing lifts near me, I'll just move away. (They will grow up eventually...)
The only thing I can really change is how much my partner enjoys herself.

My impression of what ladies like in dancing is based on what they say, how they look, how they 'feel', and whether they dance with me again. And my impression is that ladies like to look good while they dance. More importantly ladies don't like being made to look bad while they dance.

Spinning a lady who doesn't like spinning looks bad. Dragging a beginner through complicated moves looks bad. And too many missed moves make a couple look bad.

Most of the ladies I dance with I've never met before. I don't know how long they have danced, how good they are, where or what they have learnt, or what signals they know. But if I stick to moves that I can lead, it doesn't matter what they know - I can dance with them.

Most normal moves that rely on signals can be led. A neck break is simply a first move with a hand change. Other moves rely on the simplest signal around - asking for the lady's other hand. Anything beyond that I can't remember the signals! If I could guarantee that every lady knew every signal that I could learn, I wouldn't mind learning a few more, but I don't think I can guarantee that. However virtually every lady I've danced with has been able to follow a lead, and I know I should be able to lead every move I can do. (That doesn't mean to say I always lead everything properly!)

Yes Ceroc is standardised, but not everyone learns Ceroc. There are a lot of different organisations that teach Modern Jive, and I would doubt that they all use the same names or signals. There are also many other styles of dancing that follow the basics of leading and following. I would like to be able to dance with anyone, not just Ceroc dancers.

(As a leader I have the option of not using signals. Unfortunately a follower doesn't.)

David

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by DavidB
My main aim in dancing it to have fun. For that to happen only takes 4 things
- a reasonable floor (something between ice and glue)
- liking the music
- feeling safe (ie someone is not going to take my head off doing an aerial)
- letting my partner enjoy herself

David I like this.

I was thinking how I try to let my partner enjoy herself. Amonst other obvious things, I do this by responding to what you can determine are her needs or likes. You are quite right not to triple spin a lady who does not like it (or dip a lady who has expressed a preference).

What I also tend to do is to "feel" how the lady is following my signals. If she is getting every one right (ie our "dialects" or Modern Jive seem similar) then I will increase the complexity including adding in special footwork with or without the "dreaded whisper" until I have got her pitch and then probably slacken off a bit and enjoy the rest of the dance or two. This way I am giving the lady a dance inside her ability and confort zone but exercising her talent too (assuming of course that she is not one of those that is way ahead of me!). After all one can tell immediately if you are dancing with a beginner (hand is shaking!) or someone who does not like sultry moves (she created her distance on the wiggles), and an intermediate (can do a neck break or pretzel or something like that).

So we just need to respond with our lead to her response!", and I think that this is possible even if we have never danced with the lady before.

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

I can't triple spin the lady, whether she wanted it or not! The triple spin is generated by her good self, so you ought not to push with so much force, Mr Jiveaholic!!

If someone triple-spun me, my bush would surely whip their bits thrice!

jolly good

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
I can't triple spin the lady, whether she wanted it or not! The triple spin is generated by her good self, True enough, but you can turn a lady 3 times (although even that might be difficult with paws like yours...)

(I talk about a lady spinning when I let go of her, and turning when I keep hold of her hand. No idea if this is the correct terminology in Ceroc).


If someone triple-spun me, my bush would surely whip their bits thriceThe effect would be similar to dancing with a lady who has very long hair tied into a ponytail. You know who I'm talking about...

David

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
I can't triple spin the lady, whether she wanted it or not! The triple spin is generated by her good self, so you ought not to push with so much force, Mr Jiveaholic!!

If someone triple-spun me, my bush would surely whip their bits thrice!

jolly good

????
I think all I said was "You are quite right not to triple spin a lady who does not like it (or dip a lady who has expressed a preference)"

Who talked about "force"? Spins are initiated by holding the hand up high. The lady uses your hand to rebound into a spin. If the man keeps his hand up high then she ought to continue spinning. Yes she needs to compensate for friction, but the energy can come from either your hand moving round slightly (yes it is allowed for multiple spins) or from her own footwork.

Force is never needed.

There is also some ambiguity in whether a triple spin is just three spins or one three times as fast!

P.S> I've only ever managed a double spin (with a concenting lady)