WCS: Are you a U.S. Pro, a Mario Robau Jr, or a TA Guy ?

[TA Guy]

Thinking 'bout this recently cos some pretty decent WCS lady who didn't know me told me I was 'bad' at a 'neutral connection'. Some of the time anyway. Turns out I drop the lead for simple passing turns, but not for anything else. Fair enough, I am at the stage where basically I still bumble (more commonly known as 'improvers' I believe) along so any pointers were gratefully received...

But, it did remind me of the semi-recent thread that featured Mario Robau Jr and his contention that West Coast Swingers are divided (very roughly and with huge generalisation) into two camps, the ones that offer, however light, a constant lead (which is what I think she mean't I did most of the time), and those that more or less drop any lead (connection) in the middle of moves (which is what she wanted me to do).

Leads which are you ?
Follows, which do you prefer ?

[robd]

lead (connection)

Lead and connection are not the same thing.

Using the two terms interchangeably really tends to confuse this issue of whether people 'over'-lead.

[TA Guy]

Lead and connection are not the same thing.

Using the two terms interchangeably really tends to confuse this issue of whether people 'over'-lead.

I know.

Unfort the two are interchanged by different groups. So I used both in that one instance to give a hint to the other group :) you (or anyone else) can pick whichever they prefer :)

This is my personal take on it.

We are talking about leading here.

[NZ Monkey]

I haven’t voted on the poll because I don’t like any of the options.

The way I think about leading in WCS is that I am leading changes in direction and/or momentum. That might mean actively leading on every beat (think continuous whips for a simple example), or it might mean leading only on the one for a simple LSP. I suppose you can argue that the anchor step is always lead because you control the amount of “rope” your partner has and slow them down with that but I don’t think this is usually what is meant in these discussions.

This feels much nicer (IMHO) than pulling my partner through everything, no matter how lightly, and doesn’t preclude me from doing anything I’d be able to if I were leading continuously. It also gives my follower more freedom - which is hardly a bad thing.

For what it’s worth, I think it is possible to take the concept of “neutral connection” to far and start to detract from genuine lead and follow. I don’t think those of you in the UK are there yet, but perhaps there are places in the USA where this has happened.

[TA Guy]

I haven’t voted on the poll because I don’t like any of the options.

The way I think about leading in WCS is that I am leading changes in direction and/or momentum. That might mean actively leading on every beat (think continuous whips for a simple example), or it might mean leading only on the one for a simple LSP.


*shrug* That sounds like you drop the lead in the middle of moves to me :) Your just adding detail about when, why and where. Point being, you are not continuously leading.

[robd]

Point being, you are not continuously leading.

Point being, he is leading when he needs to lead. Isn't this what everyone does?

[NZ Monkey]

*shrug* That sounds like you drop the lead in the middle of moves to me :) Your just adding detail about when, why and where. Point being, you are not continuously leading.True, but that detail is pretty significant.

It's the difference between:
1. I have a precise lead that tells my follower where she needs to be but gives her as much freedom as she can possibly have in getting there.
and
2. What do you mean I need to lead her to come back on a whip?! Doesn't she know what she's supposed to do? Sheeesh!

:wink:

[frodo]

I haven’t voted on the poll because I don’t like any of the options.
Same here. The poll options are too specific for me to match one. I like the general idea of option 1 best though. Even assuming I'm competent option 1 isn't really in my gift if the lady will only provide a neutral connection.



This feels much nicer (IMHO) than pulling my partner through everything, no matter how lightly, and doesn’t preclude me from doing anything I’d be able to if I were leading continuously. It also gives my follower more freedom - which is hardly a bad thing.

IIRC I believe Mario has taught dropping the lead specifically to signal to the lady an opportunity to play. For that matter I've a feeling I've seen Robert Cordoba and Deborah Szekely teach something similar, though as a move more than a general principle.

I suppose you could generalise it as signalling the lady the opportunity to play all the time. But if it isn't optional but part of the dance that may be a generalisation too far :confused:


For what it’s worth, I think it is possible to take the concept of “neutral connection” too far and start to detract from genuine lead and follow. But does neutral connection really work for lower level dancers at all (as in a signficant majority).

Generally what Mario teaches makes understandable sense. It is immediately usable information for a large number of dancers.

There are clear benefits to a lower level dancer in learning a Mario type connection instead of no good connection.

Neutral connection has a much higher hurdle to climb, as it isn't immediately obvious what it does for you and indeed may result in an immediately less pleasant dance (at my level I far prefer a follower with a Mario type continuous connection).

[TA Guy]

Point being, he is leading when he needs to lead. Isn't this what everyone does?

Well, yes, but different people have different criteria for "needs to lead", that's what the poll is trying to find out in a general sense.

[Marioswingdaddy]

I vote for Mario Robau Jr. AND US Pro...which option would that be? Or are you implying that I'm not a Professional??????

Wonderful advice given to me years ago by those that taught me:
Don't take my word for it. Try all three possibilities with various levels of dancers. Whichever works best FOR YOU should be the one you use as your foundation.

In my 25 years, that would be constant connection.

Cheers!

p.s. If you really want to be good, learn all the options.

[johnnyman]

It is as much about being as clear and specific in your lead as connection. The effectiveness of this is down to how clear and where a leader is positioned to execute a move.

Consistency of body is another thing that I am reminded of - making sure that the hand and arm position doesn't change through execution of a pass, keeping the footwork specific and stretching where necessary during the pattern.

best
johnnyman

[Lory]

p.s. If you really want to be good, learn all the options.

As a follow, I think we have no choice but to learn all the options :wink:

[tsh]

I feel that sometimes I lead more of the time than I want to, but I'm wondering if thats because i end up having to correct for not being quite right with the initial lead. Leading less of the time certainly feels better to me when it works.

[TA Guy]

I vote for Mario Robau Jr. AND US Pro...which option would that be?

Opps. Bit of a faux pas there. Didn't mean to imply you are not a US Pro, my apologies.

[mikeyr]

I vote for Mario Robau Jr. AND US Pro...which option would that be? Or are you implying that I'm not a Professional??????

35 assorted US male Pro's...... Only One Mario Robau Jr :D, means youve ascended to Cult status mate!:worthy:


Wonderful advice given to me years ago by those that taught me:
Don't take my word for it. Try all three possibilities with various levels of dancers. Whichever works best FOR YOU should be the one you use as your foundation..

:yeah:

Cheers!


p.s. If you really want to be good, learn all the options.

One of the first concepts Mario introduced to me when I started out was, "Build your own WCS Dance Toolbox" the analogy given, how many mechanics have you seen/met with just one type of spanner(wrench)in their toolbox ?

A 5mm bolt is still a 5mm bolt, however if you just have the one 5mm spanner, you will soon be thwarted!

Have you ever read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".................No!....Well me neither :what::whistle::D

[TA Guy]

It's early days, but I am genuinely interested in the results.

I know virtually all of us come from an MJ background, so a constant lead (dropping it when play is invited) would be more the norm I would guess, but I expected at least some to choose the 'dropping the lead' alternative with Parker Dearborn et all having done many lessons over here and presumably covered this. I am surprized no one at all (save one or two pedantic objectors :whistle:) on here uses that method.

[NZ Monkey]

I know virtually all of us come from an MJ background, so a constant lead (dropping it when play is invited) would be more the norm I would guess, but I expected at least some to choose the 'dropping the lead' alternative with Parker Dearborn et all having done many lessons over here and presumably covered this. I am surprized no one at all (save one or two pedantic objectors :whistle:) on here uses that method.Looking at the (admittedly small number) of poll results so far I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that they polarize depending on who taught the voters in the first place. I know for a fact that Robd and I share very similar views on leading and that we were both taught almost exclusively by Cat, Lee and Paul in London. I don’t know about anyone who has voted, but I suspect they’ve probably learned elsewhere. Clearly Mario has been around long enough to see a lot of trends develop and presumably pass by as well, and mentioned something similar here IIRC.

What I can say is that the method I described works for me, and as virtually all the women I dance with have been taught the same way they’re happy with it as well. In fact, they used to complain when I was “leading continuously”. I consider it a wise move to keep my followers happy with my lead, particularly if they’re quite a bit better than me.

If I lived or regularly danced in an area where this wasn’t the case, or the situation was reversed, then I’d adapt. It isn’t really a difficult transition to leading continuously through everything if you can already lead only the changes and if it keeps my followers happy I’d be wise to do so.

So,
Wonderful advice given to me years ago by those that taught me:
Don't take my word for it. Try all three possibilities with various levels of dancers. Whichever works best FOR YOU should be the one you use as your foundation.:yeah:, and perhaps in another 25 years I’ll have a different opinion than I do now. Until then I’ll stick with what I know works for me now, which is probably a good idea since I prefer dancing to thinking about how I’ll have developed in quarter of a century.

[mikeyr]

Looking at the (admittedly small number) of poll results so far I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that they polarize depending on who taught the voters in the first place. I know for a fact that Robd and I share very similar views on leading and that we were both taught almost exclusively by Cat, Lee and Paul in London.

I am of the Mario constant connection skool. Youre Right Mario was my main influence coming into WCS, first from DVD then doing his classes. However it was the way I liked to lead in Jive , so it was a natural progression more than anything else.


25 yrs WCS, almost all of that at the top of the game thats a lot of Know. I've not really done anything with Paul & Cat classwise so cant comment, but I do get to work with Lee & Sydney often and I know that they constantly experiment to improve. But like Mario they are not interested in teaching to produce clones.

[Caro]

I can't vote either for the same reasons as the others.


*shrug* That sounds like you drop the lead in the middle of moves to me :) Your just adding detail about when, why and where. Point being, you are not continuously leading.

May be I'm just as pedantic as Robd but it sounds like you use lead and connection interchangeably - I think this may completely hinder communication and understanding of what each other means, here.

FWIW I have been taught (i.e. mainly by Jordan) that connection is constant - albeit very light in the middle of patterns where nothing happens other than 'follower is going where she needs to go, i.e. end of the slot' while leading is momentary (i.e. changes of direction, usually just before 1 and 4 in basic patterns).
As a follow I maintain connection (very lightly in the middle of patterns, sometimes just through fingers touching) so that I am ready for a lead whenever my leader wants to lead something else than 'go where you're supposed to'.

There's nothing worse as a follower to follow someone who tries to pull or push you to the end of your slot through your pattern. :sick:
Well, there may be things worse, but that's really unpleasant anyway. :na:

[TA Guy]

I can't vote either for the same reasons as the others.



May be I'm just as pedantic as Robd but it sounds like you use lead and connection interchangeably - I think this may completely hinder communication and understanding of what each other means, here.



"I am a lead, I generally have a precise, light, constant lead."

*shrug* I don't understand how you guys can get confused over that menu option. In fact, connection isn't mentioned once in any poll option. It seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Caro]

"I am a lead, I generally have a precise, light, constant lead."

*shrug* I don't understand how you guys can get confused over that menu option. In fact, connection isn't mentioned once in any poll option. It seems pretty straightforward to me.

ok. So as a follow in WCS I don't want a constant lead, however light. The rule is: once direction is given, go until you find the end of the slot. If you lead me to the end of the slot, it is like baby-sitting me. In any case, I wouldn't stylise much as I'd think: 'hey, something's happening here, I need to listen'. If nothing is happening, that would p1ss me off as I'd think: 'hey, you pretended you were leading something so I didn't do anything despite the music telling me to do things, now I have missed it for no reason and it's never coming back'. That would make me very sad. :tears:

A whole dance like that and I'd either be in tears at the end, or register that the constant lead is redundant with one of the basic rule of the dance, ignore it in the middle of patterns, hence do my thing anyway, and more likely than not will miss things that you did intend to lead once or twice. :blush:



The other option is 'I generally like the lead to be dropped so I can stylize' => it might be semantics but the idea of dropping something doesn't attract me (that's when I tend to imply you meant connection rather than lead - the word 'drop' implies that the normal state of thing is a constant lead, and that's not true - it's constant connection).
Plus the consequential so bothers me too: it means I can't stylise unless you are not leading, which is not quite true. I could decide not to do a coaster step on beats 3-4 of a whip, when you are leading the change of direction, and you wouldn't feel a thing (if I do it properly). I'll give you that it is easier to do that sort of things in non-leading bits of a pattern though.


I need an option that says: 'I like a constant but variable connection and a lead only when it is needed'. Then I'd vote :na:

[TA Guy]

ok. So as a follow in WCS I don't want a constant lead, however light.

<snip>

I need an option that says: 'I like a constant but variable connection and a lead only when it is needed'. Then I'd vote :na:

Your first sentence is the answer I was looking for.

I am not asking about the connection. As you say, not the same as the lead, so when trying to gain information about the lead, I do not feel the need to include the connection in the questions.

If some absolutely feel the need to include the connection in their answers about the lead for whatever reason, that's fine. But it's not what I was asking :) As I said, your first sentence answers the poll, I would suggest the last sentence is an answer to an as yet uncreated poll... :)

[Caro]

Your first sentence is the answer I was looking for.


ha, but then you forget that I'm uncomfortable with both 'drop' and 'so I can stylise' in your poll option. :)
I wouldn't want you to think that follows can only stylise when you are not leading you see :na:


Moi, I'll stylise whenever I feel like it :innocent:

[fletch]

I haven't read the whole of this tread but, :blush:


I went to James Mc's Headliners day in Northwich last weekend and met some fab WCS'ers they have been doing it for yearsssssss! :respect:

we had a conversation about MJ and the WCS element within MJ that'll be you lot, and some of the comments were along the lines of the beginners and top 'A' listers....ie Jordan & Tat Paul W are fine but there is an element of snobbery with the middle ranks. :whistle:



mmmmmmm I wonder what gives them that idea? :wink:


ooooooo I also danced WCS with a guy called Matt who did the other show case to James and Sivves showcase, hes a world champ in some dance??? nice guy at least he didnt tell me how I wasnt doing it quite right and my foot work needed improving. :(

[MartinHarper]

There's a missing option for:
* I am a follow. I can stylise regardless.

Mostly I over-lead West Coast, as far as I can tell - particularly the "1".

[Lory]

Wonderful advice given to me years ago by those that taught me:

Whichever works best FOR YOU should be the one you use as your foundation.


p.s. If you really want to be good, learn all the options.

Slightly off topic but in keeping with the above...

Kev and I had a private with John Lindo last night (who's lovely and feels great to dance with BTW) but it never ceases to amaze me, how many different takes there are on the same thing. :really:

For example, he 'prefers' the followers to hang back and 'tap' on 4, during a whip. I must say, it works beautifully, when the leader 'knows' your going to do this and as JL said, it creates many more opportunities for the leader to 'do something', as, as soon you've stepped forward, the moment has past.

I then went on to try it in freestyle, but had extremely varied results.. from great :clap: to terrible, as one leader almost stopped, thinking I was about to do something flash?

Also, I've been taught many times, when doing traveling turns, to step, then gather the feet, step, gather feet...... He suggested I keep my steps even and not gather at all and 'it works' but then again, I felt the other way worked too. (I think i'll have to study more YouTube on this one :D )

But I'm also going to make a conscious effort keep swapping and changing and compare what works best for me

Back to the whip, at this stage, I 'think' I prefer the hanging back (and let the man do more work :D) option but its definitely got more risk for going wrong, whereas, the step on 4, has almost no risk but will never be able to be as exciting as hanging back and getting a sudden and dramatic WHOOSH!:drool: