Ouch: that arm's attatched, you know!!

[Emma]

Prompted by Jive Brummie's thread on the 'The Wrestler' and the fact that recently I had a dance where I thought I might lose an arm (still hurts to raise my arms above my head today) - what do the women do if a man is a harsh lead?

Personally I let my arms and shoulders go very very floppy - and break contact a lot. This often brings bemused looks, but if a guy is going to pull me where I can't go, then my only defence is to stop him from pulling by letting go!

Does anyone have any other tips? :nice:

[Divissima]

I have encountered this problem before too. It isn't nice :mad: I am interested to hear that you let your arms go floppy - I tend to find that the less I resist the more I am at the mercy of the frenzied yankings of my lead. As I have a recurring shoulder-rotator problem, this can be bad news.

I have two tactics for this which I tend to use in combination. How I use them depends on how well I know the lead and whether the lead is nervous or a beginner. I usually start by doing the opposite to you Emma, and I resist even more. This protects my shoulder (and other innocent muscles!) and often seems to help communicate that the lead needs to adjust what they are doing. If I think the lead won't be offended or take it very personally, I will explain that their lead does not need to be so forceful (or I will explain about my gammy shoulder).

If they are hurting me, I will tell them so. Fortunately, I've only had to do that a couple of times.

Not exactly a subtle approach, I'll admit.

[Tazmanian Devil]

I have had this problem to, I tend to ask the man to go easy, If the man is a beginner I will advise them how to treat a lady on the dance floor this doesn't always work but being a taxi alot of men do tend to listen. Other than that if the man carrys on yanking my arm out I just won't ask them to dance.:wink: :kiss:

[Jon L]

The good thing is that you both tell the guy concerned and give him an opportunity to improve. That is very important

[stewart38]

Probably thats why you don't see many Tiger sharks doing ceroc

:blush:

[Jooles]

I was at a class last week when the teacher instructed the girls to put their hands on the man's chest and push him away. This I did very gently, but my partner wasn't listening to the teacher and took offence at me pushing him away and the next thing I knew I was being pushed back......and not very gently. I was gobsmacked

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Julie Griffiths
I was at a class last week when the teacher instructed the girls to put their hands on the man's chest and push him away. This I did very gently, but my partner wasn't listening to the teacher and took offence at me pushing him away and the next thing I knew I was being pushed back......and not very gently. I was gobsmacked :what: I hope that you returned the compliment and smacked him in the gob. :angry: {Actually, probably a bit extreem, but it reads well :sorry:}

I really don't get this attitude: If it had been me (not paying attention) I would perhaps have been surprised, but a quick look at my partner or a glance arround would tell me that it was part of the lesson! Aside from that, didn't he watch the demo?

Actually that should go on the "Grrrrr" thread; people who don't pay attention to either their partner, or the lesson during a class. (well, the practical bit anyway)

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Julie Griffiths
I was gobsmacked
And rightly so.

That kind of thing is way outside the parameters of acceptable behaviour.

Whether he'd been paying attention or not is no excuse whatsoever

Try not to let this put you off - people this unpleasant are very rare.

Chris, death to creeps on the dancefloor.

[Jon L]

you have a right to be hacked off here, You won't be asking him for a dance in freestyle I guess. :(


On this subject I was accused by someone a year or so ago by being indecent after doing a move called wurlitzer spin out and also the neckbreak shoulder spin :what: The woman concerned walked off the dance floor at this point, having not been familiar with the fact that using hips and shoulders for moves is perfectly normal. So it can work the other way round as well,

[Jooles]

There is no chance of the idiot putting me off. Ceroc has very quickly become an addiction.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Julie Griffiths
There is no chance of the idiot putting me off. Ceroc has very quickly become an addiction.
Well in that case, you'll be needing more venues to get to won't you. :waycool: :waycool:

Can you get to Ealing Town Hall on a Wednesday?

Not Ceroc, but the format virtually identical, and one of the most stylish and well-known Ceroc teachers in the country, as well as great dancers and great music.

Check out http://www.hipstersjive.co.uk

Chris

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Julie Griffiths
I was at a class last week when the teacher instructed the girls to put their hands on the man's chest and push him away. This I did very gently, but my partner wasn't listening to the teacher and took offence at me pushing him away and the next thing I knew I was being pushed back......and not very gently. I was gobsmacked

I would have been too. Especially cause the venues that I dance at are so friendly especially charlton on a wednesday and greenwich on tuesdays :wink:





Just feel the music and dance the night away :kiss: :hug:

[Gadget]

Oh dear, what can the matter be;
My toes are brused, my blisters won't heal 'till May,
My arm's all stilff and it dosn't bend that-a-way,
Why on earth, did I dance so much Saturday,
I don't think I will dance any more.

Oh dear, what can the matter be;
I missed last week, I just don't know what to say,
I keep grinning and dancing the night away,
It's been that way since a week gone last Saturday,
I don't think I can dance any more.

Oh dear, what can the matter be;
Now I'll dance untill my knees just give up on me,
The music stops and the dance floor just swallows me,
I can't wait 'til I'm dancing this Saturday,
I even dance in my dreams.

{some bit's don't scan quite right, but it passes a lunch hour quite quickly... :D}

[MartinHarper]

I see "yanking" as leading in a way that my partner can't follow without breaking frame or connection - could be too much speed or acceleration, but could equally be that she wasn't prepared for that lead (eg, leading a return before she's finished a preceding turn). So Emma's suggestion of deliberately going "floppy" would likely be very effective for me.

Sudden and unexpected resistance (per Divi) works as a "stop that" signal. It doesn't always tell me the reason (yanking? too forceful? someone in the way? off beat? want to play? shoe loose?), but hopefully I'll be able to work it out.

Talking is often clearest. That said, do be clear: I'm often told that I'm a "strong" lead, and it isn't always obvious whether the person I'm talking to means this positively or negatively.

[Bangers & Mash]

I've heard friends complain about having their arms yanked in the past and two friends who have been injured by this. What I will never understand is why they don't just say something.

I encourage feedback from my dance partners and if my lead is too strong, too weak or "wishy-washy" then I like to know about it. Often, the more experienced dancers will stop me and tell me what I am doing wrong and then we continue on.

Equally, if I encounter a girl who likes to lead (normally first time dancers). I simply stop, smile and say something like "tell, you what. I'll lead this one." or "wow, that's a really strong lead you have" and then we continue.

The best result is that the guy stops yanking your arm and the worst is that he never asks you to dance again. If you're being injured by the guy then surely the latter is not such a bad option.

At the BFG on Sunday, Franck did a really good exercise in leading and following which the ceroc teachers might want to consider including at the beginning of the classes (both the beginner and intermediate - since some of the worst offenders are those that think they are too good for the beginner classes!)

[Magic Hans]

Prompted by Jive Brummie's thread on the 'The Wrestler' and the fact that recently I had a dance where I thought I might lose an arm (still hurts to raise my arms above my head today) - what do the women do if a man is a harsh lead? ...

Does anyone have any other tips? :nice:


Difficult one this. From a physical/space point of view, it's clearly important to remain balanced. Aikido and Tai Chi type martial arts would suggest a soft approach, moving the body around where the hand(s) is(are) to maintain balance. That works very well whilst the point of contact between you lies within (or close to) the follow .... in this instant ... and definitely closer to the follow than the lead.

Personally I feel that the 'strong' lead expression is particularly misleading. I need no 'strength' in order to lead softly, and definitely (or positively). Maybe 'positive' leading, whilst probably not literally accurate, is more helpful.

Although the 'Andrex' lead is the best IMO ..... Soft and Strong [as opposed to Hard and Weak] .... not to sure about the very very long though!!

I have a little annoyance about follows constantly leaning back against me, when they step back. My two strategies for these are a) to soften my leading hand at the greatest extension (when it is expected to be firmer!) or b) firming my lead (almost pulling back) far earlier to prevent my follow from getting too far away (and sometimes hitting another dancer!)

Quite frankly, I quite like my shoulders the way they are, and don't particularly want them to give up on my after 15-20 years of being pulled away from me!

[baldrick]

My current pet hate is in a YoYo where a woman moves round behind, places her hand on my shoulder, braces and then pulls back on my lead (right) hand. Had this twice recently. Once gently, but once hard enough to pull a muscle in my shoulder.
Any ideas on an escape when I feel this coming on.

[Bangers & Mash]

My current pet hate is in a YoYo where a woman moves round behind, places her hand on my shoulder, braces and then pulls back on my lead (right) hand. Had this twice recently. Once gently, but once hard enough to pull a muscle in my shoulder.
Any ideas on an escape when I feel this coming on.


To get out of this one - turn to face her as she starts pulling and make it a travelling yoyo.

[Rhythm King]

I've accidentally yanked ladies' arms twice in the last two months, both times doing the same lead, in relation to a quick stop, to hit a break in the music - sorry :blush:. It was something I learned in Lindy, and I've used fairly frequently without problems previously. Haven't quite worked out whether it was me yanking per se, or the lady continuing to move after I've stopped. Either way, I am now actively trying to remember not to do it with people I don't know it works with. (On the other hand, I do sometimes put a firm lead in, when I want to stop ladies who insist on dancing in a circle all the time, but I try to step in front of them at the same time.)

R-K

[Gadget]

I still feel guilty about this, but I miss-timed a move on Saturday at the BFG and twisted a lady's arm aquardly/painfully. Like RK, it was a quick, unexpected, lead; but if I got it right, should 'flow' with the lady's momentum :tears:
It's a move I have done a hundred times and thought I had nailed. Obviously I need to work on it a bit more: I think that if I move my body in to the lady more so that my arms are not extended as much during the lead it may help...

It was a bit of a wake-up call to me; I need to pay even more attention to the direction of lead and my partner's arm position - don't lead against the joint.

[MartinHarper]

Yeah, the yoyo is my #1 move for shoulder-wrenching. A shame, because it's a nice move when done well.
I'd say the simplest escape is to break the R-R connection, if possible. The lady will then lead herself(*) into a hatchback.
Good people: turn and catch left to right. Lead some side-to-sides for a while to recover.
Evil people: turn, shaking right hand in pain, clutching right shoulder with left hand, etc, etc.

* Really good ladies won't, but really good ladies rarely attempt to perform martial arts moves midway through a yoyo

[DavidB]

I can't say I blame the ladies for this.

The yoyo is a very good move for turning linear momentum into turning momentum (ie walking in a straight line, and then turning on the spot.) It is not just the lead on count 3 that gives the lady turning momentum, but the steps in on 2.

A gentle lead to turn on 3 doesn't make much difference - she still has this momentum (of course a strong lead is just going to make matters worse.)

All this would be ok if the man then stopped her. But they usually leave it too late. So what else is the lady going to do? Those are not airbags fitted to the front for crash protection! If the man doesn't stop her with his right hand, then she will use his right shoulder. (BTW has anyone ever been taught to stop the lady with the right hand?)

As well as simply taking the shoulder away, a travelling yoyo absorbs all this excess momentum. Personally I can't remember the last time I did a normal yoyo.

David

[MartinHarper]

what else is the lady going to do?

Use her feet on the ground to stop herself. Step back right if needed. Overturn if needed. Give the guy the option of letting go. Let go.

*shrug*

[DavidB]

Use her feet on the ground to stop herself. Step back right if needed. Overturn if needed. Give the guy the option of letting go. Let go.Why should she. She is doing what the man is leading, and what she has been taught.

[Bangers & Mash]

Why should she. She is doing what the man is leading, and what she has been taught.

Or is she anticipating a travelling yoyo when the guy is trying to lead a normal yoyo?

The only time I was ever taught a normal yoyo was at SouthPort so it would seem a pretty fair, but painful, assumption.

[Gadget]

(BTW has anyone ever been taught to stop the lady with the right hand?)
What do you mean? On count 2 where their arm is a barrier accross your chest? On 3 where you're extended? or 4 where you block?
And do you mean using just the hand, or the whole arm to absorb impact?

Is the 'wrenching' involved here and dfferent from what you would expect in a cattapult or half-windmill? Why? The only difference really is that your arm is extended to the side with the lady instead of behind you.

[DavidB]

What do you mean? On count 2 where their arm is a barrier accross your chest? On 3 where you're extended? or 4 where you block?
And do you mean using just the hand, or the whole arm to absorb impact?

Is the 'wrenching' involved here and different from what you would expect in a catapult or half-windmill? Why? The only difference really is that your arm is extended to the side with the lady instead of behind you.
I understood the 'wrenching' to be the lady stopping herself with her left hand on the mans right shoulder, while the man's arm is fully extended. It looks like something a chiropractor might do to you.

I was suggesting keeping the lady's momentum from count 2 into count 3, but then slowing her down during the count 3. She won't then have the speed to require much pressure in her left hand.

Or do a travelling yoyo.

[Yogi_Bear]

Personally I can't remember the last time I did a normal yoyo.

David I can't remember the last time I wanted to dance a yo-yo..

[Gadget]

I was suggesting keeping the lady's momentum from count 2 into count 3, but then slowing her down during the count 3. She won't then have the speed to require much pressure in her left hand.
So decelerate the arm as it's extended. Didn't we discuss that somewhere else? {yoyo vs hatchback leads}

A traveling yo-yo? The lady is already traveling, and you turn to face her on beat 4 - I can't picture how tht would be done.

You could go from the yo-yo start into a cattapult exit, or side-slide, or tun the opposite way into a half-nelson walk, or take a rotating step round the lady and end up in position for count 2 on the other side, or pull and push to rotate her in to a wrap... Each has a subtally different feel on count 3 that may prevent :crunch:

[LindaN]

I have had this problem to, I tend to ask the man to go easy, If the man is a beginner I will advise them how to treat a lady on the dance floor this doesn't always work but being a taxi alot of men do tend to listen. Other than that if the man carrys on yanking my arm out I just won't ask them to dance.:wink: :kiss:

I still have a sore shoulder from dancing with guys who insist on trying to wrench my shoulder out of its socket! :tears: I find it mostly with a "windmill" move where they try to pull the arm up too high before bringing it down again, usually by force. I try to avoid dancing with these guys but find it difficult to refuse! I thought perhaps my facial expression during one dance at the BFG (big wince :eek: ) might have been an indication that my arm felt like it was being hurled around the room like "swinging a cat". I also find it difficult to tell the guy that he is hurting me. (I know I should otherwise how do they know...........).

[ChrisA]

I also find it difficult to tell the guy that he is hurting me. (I know I should otherwise how do they know...........).

I've often wondered why it is that ladies so often find it so hard to tell a guy that he's causing pain.

Could you elaborate a bit on exactly why it is that you find it so difficult? And if other ladies that find it similarly difficult might care to chip in with their thoughts on this one, I think it might give us all some insight.

So many times I've seen ladies being yanked about by guys that are either unaware, or just don't care... and the ladies have this fixed grin of pain on their faces...

... and I just think "why???" :confused: :confused:

I just think that if he's a decent guy, and you tell him, he'll be motivated to change, to the benefit of all... and if he isn't, and just doesn't care, then his feelings should be disregarded anyway. So either way it can't be a bad thing to tell 'em!

Please explain why it's so hard, ladies !! :hug:

Chris

[Bangers & Mash]

I also find it difficult to tell the guy that he is hurting me. (I know I should otherwise how do they know...........).

Since reading the forum I have started to make a point of asking my dance partner for feedback - including, was it painful...

Perhaps this could be encouraged during the classes.

[ChrisA]

Perhaps this could be encouraged during the classes.
Yep... I usually ask if it was Ok if there are leans or drops being taught.

Chris

[MartinHarper]

A traveling yo-yo? The lady is already traveling, and you turn to face her on beat 4 - I can't picture how tht would be done.

I'm pretty sure David means a Ceroc new-style yoyo, as opposed to the non-travelling yoyo taught in other times and places.

After reading David's advice, one thing I've recently started trying is using my left hand on top of the ladies right hand/arm during beat two (and four) of the yoyo. This seems to give me more control of the girl's momentum, and I've not had my arm yanked from that move since then. Perhaps it's just co-incidence, though.

[LindaN]

Please explain why it's so hard, ladies !! :hug:

Chris
Just not good with words and don't want to offend the guy! I suppose lack of confidence. :o On the other hand I would rather a guy told me if I was doing something of annoyance so I could rectify my actions/movements, but I guess they are the ones who no longer ask me to dance. I really think the guys in question are oblivious to the fact that they are being a bit harsh, but some of them give me the impression that they love being in charge. :whistle:

Thanks for the :hug:

[LindaN]

Since reading the forum I have started to make a point of asking my dance partner for feedback - including, was it painful...

Perhaps this could be encouraged during the classes.

The teachers at Aberdeen often draw attention to the guys to be aware that there is a lady (usually) on the end of their lead :what: (not literally, sorry ladies) and that shoulders have sockets that are best kept intact! (Actually they don't exactly put it this way, but you get my drift).

[Bangers & Mash]

The teachers at Aberdeen often draw attention to the guys to be aware that there is a lady (usually) on the end of their lead :what: (not literally, sorry ladies) and that shoulders have sockets that are best kept intact! (Actually they don't exactly put it this way, but you get my drift).


Wow! You have read ladies at Aberdeen :wink: :rofl:

Actually, one of the girls at Edinburgh reckons her arm was pulled out of its socket by one of the guys here. Perhaps that could be used as an example during the classes.

:eek:

[Graham]

Actually, one of the girls at Edinburgh reckons her arm was pulled out of its socket by one of the guys here. Perhaps that could be used as an example during the classes.
Wouldn't it be better just putting it back in its socket? :wink:

[LindaN]

Wow! You have read ladies at Aberdeen :wink: :rofl:

Now, now. There are more REAL ladies in Aberdeen than you realise! :na:

And I'm one of them :whistle: (albeit English)

[LindaN]

Wouldn't it be better just putting it back in its socket? :wink:

Shouldn't have been out of its socket in the first place and I certainly wouldn't want the same guy who took it out of its socket to put it back! :eek:

Seriously guys this is an issue that needs to be addressed and I suppose in the end it's up to us ladies :grin: to tell the person in question what is happening. I guess we should master the art of communication/conversation as well as the art of dancing.

[Bangers & Mash]

Now, now. There are more REAL ladies in Aberdeen than you realise! :na:

And I'm one of them :whistle: (albeit English)

I wiuldn't have dared post that remark if for one minute I meant it. :nice:

I've met a few ladies from Aberdeen - and admired a few more from a distance :drool: :whistle:

[MartinHarper]

Seriously guys, this is an issue that needs to be addressed and I suppose in the end it's up to us ladies to tell the person in question what is happening

I was dancing a while back with a lady who coudn't bend her arm behind her back in a half nelson - such moves were painful for her. She elected not to tell me about this - instead simply breaking the connection where I led that sort of move. It was only the third time I attempted an Arm Jive Swizzle, trying to work out where I was going wrong, that she explained this to me. At the time I wished I'd been told at the start, but in retrospect I can see where she was coming from. I can't deny that my dancing after being told suffered a little, as I tried to work out which moves involved the ladies putting their hand in that position. In a way, I feel complimented that she trusted me to always keep our handhold loose enough that she could lose it if needed.

Perhaps the ladies on this thread could help us by saying what sort of moves can lead (or have lead) to them getting hurt? Someone's already mentioned the windmill...

[Graham]

Other than specific problems such as an existing injury or condition, most problems are due not so much to specific moves, but by an incompatibility between the leader and the follower, which will generally manifest itself on certain moves. This could be all due to a bad habit of either one, but more likely a combination of both. For example many ladies have a tendency to travel when turning - if the leader happens to also have a tendency to lean back or step away, then many moves will be pulling the lady at least off-balance and possibly even causing painful wrenching of the shoulder.

As a general rule, moves such as pretzels, nelsons, backhanders and windmills will only be comfortable if the timing and relative positioning of the leader and follower is correct. When dancing with a lady you don't know, or who you're finding it difficult to maintain position with (eg ending up at full stretch a lot), avoid such moves. If you're building up a connection with a partner, try out your complicated moves to slower tracks before you attempt a pretzel unwind nelson dip to Boogie Woogie Choo Choo Train.

[Graham W]

..a lady told me weds she'd been to her first freestyle & had ended up with sore shoulders, she's a relaxed dancer.. so I knew where this had come from -(see thread)

G

I think u can still look into the dance & be gentle..!!
It's not difficult...