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View Full Version : Does your nearest MJ class teach the Semi-Circle?



Andy McGregor
24th-June-2008, 06:03 AM
Gus has called me out as someone who doesn't know if the semi-circle is taught throughout the UK. I'm sorry to confess that I do not know. But I can find out but asking this question.

"Does the class nearest to where you live teach the semi-circle?"

To add an element of authenticity please make sure it's your nearest class, not the one you most frequently attend - this could be more distant.

The semi-circle I'm talking about is the one the teacher asks you to do when starting the routine. He/she usually says "semi-circle to the left and both step back": sometimes the semi-circle goes the other way.

Please feel free to post on the thread say where your nearest class is and what they do. Then we'll all be able to answer the question Gus posed about knowing the geographic distribution of the semi-circle - it seems like it's important to Gus that we know this information.

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2008, 06:07 AM
The nearest MJ class to where I live is Brighton LeRoc. YES, they DO teach the semi-circle.

geoff332
24th-June-2008, 08:25 AM
All the Ceroc Oxford venues I've been to use the evil semi-circle.

It's might be worth mentioning that this particularly survey will give you more information about the geographical distribution of posters on the forum than it will about the geographic distribution of the teaching of the semi-circle; the sample is inherently biased and biased samples produce biased results reflecting variations in the sample rather than the variations in the population. That and the numbers will most likely be small enough to consider each case. Generalising from these results to whatever we think "reality" may be wouldn't be particularly valid.

onkar
24th-June-2008, 08:31 AM
At Cambridge they do.

Onkar

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2008, 09:09 AM
It's might be worth mentioning that this particularly survey will give you more information about the geographical distribution of posters on the forum than it will about the geographic distribution of the teaching of the semi-circle; the sample is inherently biased and biased samples produce biased results reflecting variations in the sample rather than the variations in the population. That and the numbers will most likely be small enough to consider each case. Generalising from these results to whatever we think "reality" may be wouldn't be particularly valid.Of course you are right about the sample. If I was being paid to conduct this survey I would find a way of producing a stratified sample that reflects the population. If it really mattered, I would simply call the people who run the classes and ask them - If I called them all and got an answer it would no longer be a "sample" at all.

However, it's very easy to knock a survey sample. It's also easy to be accused of asking a biased question. But this is the only survey we've got so let's get on with it and take what we can from the result, bearing in mind the limitations of the sample.

Lou
24th-June-2008, 09:14 AM
It's might be worth mentioning that this particularly survey will give you more information about the geographical distribution of posters on the forum than it will about the geographic distribution of the teaching of the semi-circle; the sample is inherently biased and biased samples produce biased results reflecting variations in the sample rather than the variations in the population. That and the numbers will most likely be small enough to consider each case. Generalising from these results to whatever we think "reality" may be wouldn't be particularly valid.

That's a very good point.

It would be a bit more helpful if people would post a bit more info after they voted, just to say where their local class is. Then, you could stick the details into Google maps or something & see the spread of classes including, say, red dots for semi-circles & blue dots for not.

BTW... I think my closest class is Love LeRoc at Stanmore (I did try to find a closer Ceroc class, but the Ceroc HQ website wasn't working properly when I put my postcode in). They do NOT teach the semi-circle. :D

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2008, 09:28 AM
BTW... I think my closest class is Love LeRoc at Stanmore (I did try to find a closer Ceroc class, but the Ceroc HQ website wasn't working properly when I put my postcode in). They do NOT teach the semi-circle. :DI am so proud of Brian from Love LeRoc - guess whose teacher's training he did :innocent:

gebandemuishond
24th-June-2008, 09:43 AM
Now my closest MJ class is Nantwich, and last time I was there the semi-circle was taught. Will confirm tonight.

Dan

marcusj
24th-June-2008, 09:48 AM
In Ceroc Central they teach the semi circle in the beginner class only, anyone who has a clue leads properly in the intermediate class and freestyle, and those that can't lead, dance, or hit a beat just f*ck it up like they usually do !

geoff332
24th-June-2008, 11:17 AM
However, it's very easy to knock a survey sample. It's also easy to be accused of asking a biased question.Equally, it's very easy to make generalisations - and policy decisions - on the basis of a bad survey. I'm not sure which behaviour is more common, but I do know which has less desirable outcomes.

But this is the only survey we've got so let's get on with it and take what we can from the result, bearing in mind the limitations of the sample.If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Being the only survey we have doesn't change whether or not it's valid. That's the sort of logic a governments use to start illegal wars: "We have seriously flawed evidence telling us that Iraq has WMD. We know the evidence is flawed, but it's the only evidence we have - let's invade."

Martin
24th-June-2008, 11:36 AM
Looking at the poll results so far, looks like most places teach the semi-circle.

I so miss that "move" - standing in class, ready to begin and the lady makes this nice "rainbow" shape with your hand that you were just about to use to lead her. :love:

It has been a long time since I have heard anyone ask the class to "do a semi-circle" before they start dancing. But then, that is my own silly fault for no longer dancing in the UK.

In fact, I cannot actually remember the last class that taught this, must have been some years ago.

I guess I will have to wait until my next trip back to the UK to enjoy the traditional delights of Modern Jive. :D

bigdjiver
24th-June-2008, 11:54 AM
...Being the only survey we have doesn't change whether or not it's valid. That's the sort of logic a governments use to start illegal wars: "We have seriously flawed evidence telling us that Iraq has WMD. We know the evidence is flawed, but it's the only evidence we have - let's invade."Human beings tend to be rationalising creatures, rather than rational ones. Any evidence that supports what we want to believe is far more valuable than any evidence that points to us being wrong.

I had the privelege of enjoying a Michaela beginners lesson at Bedford the other week and it was a joy to experience. We had humour, break the ice activities and style tips. There was also the three moves, and the semi-circle.

I have no opinions on the usefulness of the semi-circle to beginners. I only ever conciously use one in beginners lessons. I did have the privelege of running queries on the huge CC database and Michaela has an extraordinary record for getting beginners to come back. Without any equally strong evidence to the contrary, that is sufficient for me to accept her lead in this.

Gadget
24th-June-2008, 01:01 PM
:confused: The "semi-circle" is part of the Borg Manual isn't it? I would be surprised and wary of any Ceroc venues not teaching it.

("Surprised" because it's part of the whole 'one ring to rule them all' ethos so that every venue in the land is taught the same way. And "wary" because I think it's a good thing: if the teacher has decided to eliminate one of the core identifying features of the teaching, then what are they going to replace it with and why do they think they are 'better' than all the combined might of the collective?)

Steven666
24th-June-2008, 01:05 PM
ALL my local classes teach the semi circle.

In fact I'm not sure of any place that don't off the top of my head. Guess I'm so used to it now.

Steven666
24th-June-2008, 01:07 PM
sometimes the semi-circle goes the other way.

Aye, to the followers left or right when I've not even started to move! :whistle:

StokeBloke
24th-June-2008, 01:21 PM
:confused: if the teacher has decided to eliminate one of the core identifying features of the teaching, then what are they going to replace it with and why do they think they are 'better' than all the combined might of the collective?)Perhaps they feel the need to teach lead/follow that actually means something; not just spurious arm movements that disrupt the connection between the dancers because it's part of "the one true way" :whistle:


Is this why CTA qualifications don't seem to mean much outside of Ceroc (semi)circles?

Lynn
24th-June-2008, 01:36 PM
Perhaps they feel the need to teach lead/follow that actually means something; not just spurious arm movements that disrupt the connection between the dancers because it's part of "the one true way"Do any followers ever get tempted to actually 'follow' the semi circle? :devil:

TBH its one of the reasons why I don't do the beginners class (that and it seems to set off my shoulder pain, leading heavier and taller beginner ladies cos I am so small and light) as I would be doing it as a lead and I don't want to have to do the semi circle - or as is more usually the case, have my arm wrenched round by the follower if I dare to try to leave it out.

The semi circle = first thing beginner ladies learn to backlead.

Lou
24th-June-2008, 01:42 PM
:confused: The "semi-circle" is part of the Borg Manual isn't it? I would be surprised and wary of any Ceroc venues not teaching it.

Now that the Ceroc network is working again, I've confirmed that my local Borg venue is Watford* - and I can assure you that Carole does NOT teach the semi-circle either.

I doubt Andy McG can claim influence this time... :D

Perhaps I'm inside the fabled non-semi circle? :wink:



*(But Stanmore is my closest class - so it's a moot point).

DavidB
24th-June-2008, 02:26 PM
It is nothing to do with dancing. It is to reduce the carbon footprint of Ceroc.

Orange launches dance-powered phone charger | Register Hardware (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/06/24/orange_kinetic_phone_charger/)

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2008, 03:53 PM
Now that the Ceroc network is working again, I've confirmed that my local Borg venue is Watford* - and I can assure you that Carole does NOT teach the semi-circle either. Are you sure her chip has been fitted properly? :confused:

Agente Secreto
24th-June-2008, 05:23 PM
My nearest venue is Ceroc St Neots - only been there once and it was taught. I dance at Jive Nites Buckden where the semi-circle has never been taught. Oh no, how do I vote? I'm going with a no

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2008, 05:44 PM
My nearest venue is Ceroc St Neots - only been there once and it was taught. I dance at Jive Nites Buckden where the semi-circle has never been taught. Oh no, how do I vote? I'm going with a noWrong!

This is why I was very specific about it being your "nearest" venue. To do otherwise would introduce an element of preference. Isn't the data skewed enough by our current sample method?

StokeBloke
24th-June-2008, 08:51 PM
Is the infamous 'semi-circle start' copyright to Ceroc?

I'm not badly placed to comment on this as I have been all over the UK dancing, during that time the semi-circle thing seems to fall into two distinct camps. Pretty much without exception it seems to be:

1. Independent Dance Teachers - DON'T teach the semi-circle.
2. Ceroc Dance Teachers - DO teach the semi-circle.

Andy, maybe it would be more useful to ask if anyone has seen exceptions to these two general rules. I know of one Ceroc teacher who doesn't teach the semi-circle, but I will not name them as Ceroc seem a little tetchy about the whole 'one true way' thing they seem to have going. I even saw a Ceroc (UTOPIA) blues class being taught when the teacher said "a slow semi-circle to the left and ste...". HONESTLY! I kid you not! On the reverse of that same coin, I have NEVER seen an independent instructor teach a semi-circle start.

I am a little surprised that a company like Ceroc who have their business based in teaching dance are still teaching something so plainly wrong and destructive to learning good dance technique. As has already been said by Lynn... the first move ladies learn to back lead. Pretty much by the end of their first lesson too!!

Imagine someone being taught to navigate for their pilot's license, and they are told by the instructor "Yes we appreciate that the Earth is not flat. However, we have always taught that it is and therefore we will continue to do so regardless of the fact that it screws up all the other stuff you are trying to learn. We feel that being painfully wrong is preferable to admitting you were wrong in the past but intelligent enough to make a change when it's pointed out."

Now I would not be so improper as to suggest that Ceroc take that dreadful myopic view of their teaching, but you have to admit there is a slight similarity to that silly example and the 'Ceroc one true way' :whistle:

Agente Secreto
24th-June-2008, 09:14 PM
Wrong!

This is why I was very specific about it being your "nearest" venue. To do otherwise would introduce an element of preference. Isn't the data skewed enough by our current sample method?
OK, then I'll forget my single attendance at the local Ceroc venue and go with what I know. Like Stokie says the venue is independent and almost by definition shuns the circle.

TheTramp
24th-June-2008, 09:24 PM
Hmmm. Seems like the semi-circle has become the fount of all evil.

Okie. Personal standpoint on this. I hate the semi-circle. I hate teaching it when I teach for Ceroc. I do it because I must. I have asked Franck to remove it.

However, as far as it going, doing the semi-circle does not make you a bad dancer. It does not mean that, if you don't do it, you're automatically a good dancer. So, if you don't do the semi-circle, don't kid yourself that you're the best thing since sliced bread - either as a teacher, or as a dancer (although, of course, you might be :na: )! It's really almost a style point, rather than anything else. When I teach it, I teach the men to do it, and on the down part of the motion to establish connection, and then lead their partner back.

There are plenty of people, in plenty of classes (and yes, including Andy's) who don't do the semi-circle, and still have plenty of bad habits. As far as it goes, there are far more things that I would prefer to see being taught and emphasised from the stage than worrying about the semi-circle (of course, I do understand that Andy does all of these too).

So, my personal summary about whether or not to teach the semi-circle is that it's down to personal preference, and I don't really care, provided things like connection, weight transference, weight awareness, anticipation (or the lack thereof), etc. are taught. All are much more important. Andy seems to have chosed to fight his aversion for all things Ceroc on this point. I think that maybe he should concentrate on something that actually matters :D

Gus
24th-June-2008, 09:34 PM
1. Independent Dance Teachers - DON'T teach the semi-circle.
2. Ceroc Dance Teachers - DO teach the semi-circle.

Urrrr ... Thinking about the N West, George Moss, Kevin, Paula C, Northern Jive etc etc ... all independent, all use the semi-c don't they?



Imagine someone being taught to navigate for their pilot's license, and they are told by the instructor "Yes we appreciate that the Earth is not flat. However, we have always taught that it is and therefore we will continue to do so regardless of the fact that it screws up all the other stuff you are trying to learn. We feel that being painfully wrong is preferable to admitting you were wrong in the past but intelligent enough to make a change when it's pointed out."
Sorry .... I've not seen evidence that the semi-c is the direct source of evil. IF you are so certain that it is so ... are you going to assert that ALL who teach the semi-c can't teach, and the converse is true? :rolleyes:

StokeBloke
24th-June-2008, 09:47 PM
so ... are you going to assert that ALL who teach the semi-c can't teach, and the converse is true? :rolleyes:Nope :rolleyes:

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 01:34 AM
1. Independent Dance Teachers - DON'T teach the semi-circle.
2. Ceroc Dance Teachers - DO teach the semi-circle.I hate to prove you wrong. But I can do so in three letters;

G
U
S

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 01:41 AM
Andy seems to have chosed to fight his aversion for all things Ceroc on this point. I think that maybe he should concentrate on something that actually matters :DChosed? :confused:

I have no aversion for Ceroc - although I'm not a great fan of orange :whistle:

I do concentrate on things that really matter. Why would I post them on here? Having said that, I can see no use for this silly wave and can see many reasons why it is counter-productive.

I am delighted that Ceroc do this and I'm delighted that my local competition also do the semi-circle. It makes me look like I'm a dance God by comparison - when all I'm actually doing is not doing something - it's a Zen thing and I love it :wink:

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 01:44 AM
G
U
SOr was that

G
A
S
?

He's full of it, obviously :sick:

marcusj
25th-June-2008, 09:29 AM
On one hand millions starving in the world and in mortal fear of political and ethnic persecution ... and on the other people getting huffy about a semi circle or not ... I'm pleased a sense of proportion prevails on the forum !

Lou
25th-June-2008, 09:56 AM
Is the infamous 'semi-circle start' copyright to Ceroc?

I'm not badly placed to comment on this as I have been all over the UK dancing, during that time the semi-circle thing seems to fall into two distinct camps. Pretty much without exception it seems to be:

1. Independent Dance Teachers - DON'T teach the semi-circle.
2. Ceroc Dance Teachers - DO teach the semi-circle.

I have to disagree, Stokie. There's a lot of independent teachers in Bristol & South Wales who teach it. Andy McG started the thread with an indie who teaches it. And I've already listed one of the Collectiveâ„¢ who doesn't teach it, and she's not the only one.... :D

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 10:51 AM
On one hand millions starving in the world and in mortal fear of political and ethnic persecution ... and on the other people getting huffy about a semi circle or not ... I'm pleased a sense of proportion prevails on the forum !It's this sense of proportion that allows us to go out dancing at night too.

When I become a super-hero there will be no starving, I'll stamp out all fear, all politics and all ethnic persecution. I will wage a war that unites all countries under the same flag, there will be only one world and I will be the supreme leader, there will be no politics because my word will be the law and I will choose the master race, obliterating all others to bring an end to ethnic differences for ever*. But today I have to earn a living, maybe tomorrow, but not if it's raining, or I forget to set my alarm :innocent:

This argument that we shouldn't be frivious because there is suffering in the world, if serious, is a time-worn load of rubbish. I'm not even going to put up the counter-argument. Barry's not busy at the moment, perhaps he can expose this weak minded argument for what it is.


*And I'll grow one of those natty little moustaches under my nose and develop a grand salute - oh, and real men will get to wear long leather coats and shiny boots.

ChrisB
25th-June-2008, 11:04 AM
It feels largely like a teacher preference although they might feel pressured to do things the way their organisation calls for. Whenever I've seen Marc Forster teach Ceroc, he'll normally point out that he isn't doing it. I also like the way Trampy approaches it. He'll have you establish connection and lead normally before commenting along the lines of "just to help the beginners we're going to give a slight signal with a semi circle as we lead her back"; I guess thats the best you can do if we must have the abomination at all. But everything varies from teacher to teacher, some older school Ceroc teachers will teach the yoyo with a normal grip, newer teachers use the flat hand. I did think the semi circle was exclusive to Ceroc though

marcusj
25th-June-2008, 12:06 PM
It's this sense of proportion that allows us to go out dancing at night too.

When I become a super-hero there will be no starving, I'll stamp out all fear, all politics and all ethnic persecution. I will wage a war that unites all countries under the same flag, there will be only one world and I will be the supreme leader, there will be no politics because my word will be the law and I will choose the master race, obliterating all others to bring an end to ethnic differences for ever*. But today I have to earn a living, maybe tomorrow, but not if it's raining, or I forget to set my alarm :innocent:

This argument that we shouldn't be frivious because there is suffering in the world, if serious, is a time-worn load of rubbish. I'm not even going to put up the counter-argument. Barry's not busy at the moment, perhaps he can expose this weak minded argument for what it is.


*And I'll grow one of those natty little moustaches under my nose and develop a grand salute - oh, and real men will get to wear long leather coats and shiny boots.
Quite happy to concede it as a time-worn load of rubbish, and weak minded, and you have guessed correctly I was not being serious, it was simply a poor attempt to draw attention to the ridiculous nature of 2 grown men throwing insults at each other about something so trivial, of course i am assuming you are grown men and not 12.

As a punter I don't give a sh*it whether the semi circle is taught or not, so many factors determine whether a venue is worth attending or not and this isn't one of them.

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 12:30 PM
Quite happy to concede it as a time-worn load of rubbish, and weak minded, and you have guessed correctly I was not being serious, it was simply a poor attempt to draw attention to the ridiculous nature of 2 grown men throwing insults at each other about something so trivial, of course i am assuming you are grown men and not 12.

As a punter I don't give a sh*it whether the semi circle is taught or not, so many factors determine whether a venue is worth attending or not and this isn't one of them.Quite right :clap:

It's a nice and harmless distraction to argue something trivial. Because the outcome doesn't matter :waycool:

On this occasion Gus is arguing from the weak position. This requires better debating skills. Does Gus have them? At the moment Gus is trying smoke screen distractions by diverting the debate to ancient competitions that were held on the other side of the planet. But those distractions do not support his case in any way - but they might distract me from my position of strength :wink:

This thread is part of the on-going debate between Gus and me. Gus accused me of not knowing about the teaching of the semi-circle around the UK. Well, now we know, or at least we're finding out.

And, as I said somewhere, for me it's a Zen thing. The semi-circle is something I don't do or teach. There are many other things I don't do or teach - I could think of some silly things I don't do, like always dancing cupping your opposite man boob with your free hand :wink: I really don't need to argue why I'm not doing something, be it starting my partners with a semi-circle or cupping my moob with my free hand. I think it's up to those doing something to sell the benefits to those of us who do not.


Cupping your moob with your free hand is a clear instruction. It gives beginners something to do with their hand. If you didn't tell them to do it they wouldn't know what to do with their free hand. I think we should all do it - everyone up North does it and they teach it at the CTA - at least they did when I qualified with them between the wars. The CTA is the bestest teaching organisation there is and nobody is as good. Andy has no idea, he's not a proper teacher, he has no credentials as a teacher, he's argumentative, nobody likes him and, most importantly, he has a smaller willy than me

marcusj
25th-June-2008, 12:37 PM
Thanks Andy - maybe it's me who's 12 because I really do want to be a super hero, or play for Arsenal, with everything else being a poor compromise. Not really sensible career aspirations for a 40 something accountant, but we can all dream.

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 01:56 PM
Thanks Andy - maybe it's me who's 12 because I really do want to be a super hero, or play for Arsenal, with everything else being a poor compromise. Not really sensible career aspirations for a 40 something accountant, but we can all dream.I'm sure there are many accounting conventions that make as much sense as the semi-circle, such as the wearing of women's underwear when you're wearing brogues. Why not when you're wearing loafers? :confused:

I have one question though. This is a dream world, so why choose Arsenal?

Or are you implying that you wouldn't play for Arsenal if you were super? Makes sense to me ...

DundeeDancer
25th-June-2008, 02:07 PM
The three Ceroc classes in Edinburgh teach the semi-c.

I've never been to a class that doesn't start the moves with a semi-c.

What do people use instead, do the just push away there partners arm hoping they'll step back :confused:

My gut feeling would be they should keep the semi-c for the beginner classes and then drop it from the intermediate classes by which time dancers hopefully have some grasp of lead and follow.

Cheers, DD.

marcusj
25th-June-2008, 02:16 PM
I have one question though. This is a dream world, so why choose Arsenal?

Or are you implying that you wouldn't play for Arsenal if you were super? Makes sense to me ...
A good point well observed ... has something to do with having a kickabout with Charlie George when I was 7 and growing up in north London ... with no such loyalties it would have to be Brasil ... with Zico

dep
25th-June-2008, 02:32 PM
I thought the semi-C was as good as a Ceroc trademark.
If any non Ceroc organisations even thought of copying it, wouldn't they be seen as giving in to the Ceroc method? Even beneath them to be tarred as Ceroc copyists.

David Bailey
25th-June-2008, 03:10 PM
What do people use instead, do the just push away there partners arm hoping they'll step back :confused:
Put yourself in the mind of a total beginner follower.

If someone is holding your right hand, then waves it around in a semi-circle, why would you naturally or instinctively step back?

If someone pushes on your hand, however, there's a chance you may step back, to relieve the pressure.

See the difference? One is a "code" signal, you need to know the code to interpret it. The other is a "lead" signal - your action is a more natural one based on a more natural action.

straycat
25th-June-2008, 03:11 PM
So, if you don't do the semi-circle, don't kid yourself that you're the best thing since sliced bread

Which raises an interesting point - what exactly is so great about sliced bread? I'm sure it was seen as a wonderful innovation once upon a time, but let's be honest - most of it might as well be cardboard for all the flavour it has...

Maybe this saying needs to be brought up-to-date?

ducasi
25th-June-2008, 03:42 PM
Which raises an interesting point - what exactly is so great about sliced bread? I'm sure it was seen as a wonderful innovation once upon a time, but let's be honest - most of it might as well be cardboard for all the flavour it has...

Maybe this saying needs to be brought up-to-date?
Try Hovis Seed Sensation (Light & Nutty) – it's yummy! Especially when toasted! :drool:

Gus
25th-June-2008, 04:16 PM
On this occasion Gus is arguing from the weak position. This requires better debating skills. Does Gus have them? At the moment Gus is trying smoke screen distractions by diverting the debate to ancient competitions that were held on the other side of the planet. But those distractions do not support his case in any way - but they might distract me from my position of strength :wink:Pot kettle Black? Ever going to let verified fact get in the way of one of your sermons ... or too busy dissing Ceroc, from whom you owe everything? (:rolleyes:)

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 04:32 PM
Pot kettle Black? Ever going to let verified fact get in the way of one of your sermons ... or too busy dissing Ceroc, from whom you owe everything? (:rolleyes:)I don't "diss" (whatever that means in Northern Street parlance) Ceroc. I have recently been dissing the results of bad teaching that I've observed in students visiting my classes. Without exception, not one of them was taught at a Ceroc class.

On the suject of who I "owe everything". I believe I owe John Travolta as Tony Manero on Saturday Night Fever for inspiring to go to dance classes. Although I was earlier inspired by Grant Santino, UK Disco dance champion and, having attended no classes, actually won the odd disco dance competition in NW London and Brighton. I owe my main Ballroom Teacher, Doris Myers for helping me get to grips with partner dancing. I owe Graham LeClerc from LeRoc Brighton for introducing me to Modern Jive (and the semi-circle :whistle: ). I owe Franco for introducing me to weekenders. I owe Nigel and Nina for teaching me some interesting moves and introducing me to beter music for MJ. I owe Amir for teaching me technique. I owe Kate for teaching me Ladies styling and I owe Viktor for teaching me how to be sexy :wink: Not one of those things was at a Ceroc class.

To be realistic, those people who taught me MJ were probably influenced by Ceroc. But they were not working for Ceroc at the time and may have left the collective in order to teach differently.

Owe Ceroc? That's a bit like saying that any restaurant that serves burgers should pay homage at the golden arches of McDonalds.

Martin
25th-June-2008, 04:34 PM
Pot kettle Black? Ever going to let verified fact get in the way of one of your sermons ... or too busy dissing Ceroc, from whom you owe everything? (:rolleyes:)

Just a small point - from my experience, Andy does not owe everything to Ceroc, as he did not at first learn Ceroc.

I also did not first learn Ceroc.

We both did MJ at various venues. Some of these venues we visited in later days were Ceroc.

The better venues were Ceroc with a twist - Victor, Mike etc.

The independants also offered something, plus other dance classes.

You often bang on about CTA trained... then you went on to teach outside of "Ceroc".

So get the kettle in order and work out what is black and what is white!

bigdjiver
25th-June-2008, 04:35 PM
Which raises an interesting point - what exactly is so great about sliced bread? I'm sure it was seen as a wonderful innovation once upon a time, but let's be honest - most of it might as well be cardboard for all the flavour it has...My Chemistry master said that bread lasts longer now because most of the nutrients have been removed, and any germs trying to live off it die of starvation.

Gus
25th-June-2008, 05:08 PM
You often bang on about CTA trained... then you went on to teach outside of "Ceroc".

So get the kettle in order and work out what is black and what is white!I maintain that the CTA training is the best foundation training I've seen in MJ ... however, at the time I broke away Ceroc was far too restrictive ... it was the same time that Viktor, Joseph and many others left (think about 12 CTA instructors left over 3 months). CTA gives a good foundation but if you want to improve .... you have to find your own way.

My personal view is that the small number of CTA instructors blow away most of the independent instructors in the region for actually teaching good MJ. There are always going to be exceptions, but thats been my experience.

FWIW ... there is an huge gulf between an instructor standing on stage spouting about T&C and correct footwork, and actually being able to teach it!

straycat
25th-June-2008, 05:11 PM
So get the kettle in order and work out what is black and what is white!

Easy. White = untoasted sliced bread. Black = burned sliced bread. (for which you could use a kettle, I'll grant you, but a toaster is better, and gets you a more even burn)

FYI :wink:
[EDIT - using a kettle may well, I grant you, give you a more circular burn pattern, which would be more in keeping with the topic under discussion. Although it may harm the kettle. So be warned]

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 06:29 PM
I maintain that the CTA training is the best foundation training I've seen in MJ ...

-snip-

FWIW ... there is an huge gulf between an instructor standing on stage spouting about T&C and correct footwork, and actually being able to teach it!I've NEVER heard any Ceroc teacher talking about tension and compression or footwork. I have heard some of them say "it doesn't matter which foot" and I've heard many of them say "semi-circle to the left and both step back". I wonder if that's what Gus means us to take as an example of the great product of the mighty CTA? :confused:

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 06:33 PM
My personal view is that the small number of CTA instructors blow away most of the independent instructors in the region for actually teaching good MJ. There are always going to be exceptions, but thats been my experience.So there you have it. From an ex-CTA graduate. They are "teaching good MJ". And, as they are teaching "it doesn't matter which foot" and "semi-circle to the left and both step back", this must be what Gus thinks is "good MJ".

Now we know :deadpan smiley:

straycat
25th-June-2008, 07:22 PM
I've NEVER heard any Ceroc teacher talking about tension and compression or footwork.

Strangely enough, I have. Point of fact - when I first started Ceroc, every beginners lesson I attended began with a simple T&C exercise, and it was extremely helpful for beginner leads (probably for follows also) Wonder what happened to that...

TheTramp
25th-June-2008, 08:00 PM
I've NEVER heard any .... I have heard some of them say .... and I've heard many of them say .....

OKie Andy. How many ceroc teachers have you actually seen teach?

And how many in the last 3 years?

Just out of interest you understand.... :flower:

Andy McGregor
25th-June-2008, 11:16 PM
OKie Andy. How many ceroc teachers have you actually seen teach?

And how many in the last 3 years?

Just out of interest you understand.... :flower:I the last 3 years, not many. In the last 3 years I've attended Ceroc venues in:

St Neots (The Tramp was also there)
Horsham
Brighton
Haywards Heath
Godalming
Woking
Ashtons
Crawley

Not a huge list. But I've been busy. I have attended the ones near to me on more than one occasion - all the teachers at the above classes taught the semi-circle. None of them mentioned tension or compression. All but one of them was pretty :flower:

dep
26th-June-2008, 09:41 AM
I've NEVER heard any Ceroc teacher talking about tension and compression or footwork. Icome to Ceroc classes in Scotland. Most of the venues mentioned repeatedly, some less often.

Andy McGregor
26th-June-2008, 09:50 AM
come to Ceroc classes in Scotland. Most of the venues mentioned repeatedly, some less often.I think it's limited to Scotland Ceroc. I think us Scots are ahead of our time. One day all of MJ will look at old videos of people doing the semi-circle and they will laugh.

ChrisB
27th-June-2008, 09:35 AM
I've NEVER heard any Ceroc teacher talking about tension and compression or footwork. I have heard some of them say "it doesn't matter which foot" and I've heard many of them say "semi-circle to the left and both step back". I wonder if that's what Gus means us to take as an example of the great product of the mighty CTA? :confused:

Every Ceroc teacher at my local venues teaches tension and compression

Andy McGregor
27th-June-2008, 09:47 AM
Every Ceroc teacher at my local venues teaches tension and compressionAnd the semi-circle?

tomthumb
27th-June-2008, 11:03 AM
I set up my own venue six weeks ago and made the decision not to teach the semi circle and instead start with a gentle push back. It's been welcomed by beginners and experienced dancers. In six weeks the people who started dancing at my venue, having not danced before, have found it much easier to grasp the aspect of lead and follow.
A semi circle with the hand does not encourage a follower to step back (unless they already know its a signal) a gently push does, even a novice can do it:nice:.

Before I go into teaching a routine I always go over tension and compression, and include it as I teach the moves.

(former ceroc teacher:flower:)

Gus
27th-June-2008, 11:16 AM
Every Ceroc teacher at my local venues teaches tension and compressionWould like to see this in action. Not yet seen it taught well and after better teaching models to communicate it. Which clubs/instructors?

ChrisB
27th-June-2008, 11:19 AM
And the semi-circle?

Most do, a few don't. As much as I dislike it, I can see the reasoning behind it and don't see it any worse than the other absence of lead/follow that creeps into the beginners class, like "both step in" rather than "lead the lady in". Everything they do is focused towards making things as easy as possible and the first phrasing does that, as does waving a semi circle rather than teaching a really good handhold and how to lead/follow basic steps. Go to the beginners workshop and its the first thing they do. But in my experience any more detail than what is generally presented in the beginners class frustrates and bores the majority even if its for their own good.

Andy McGregor
27th-June-2008, 11:21 AM
I set up my own venue six weeks ago and made the decision not to teach the semi circle and instead start with a gentle push back. It's been welcomed by beginners and experienced dancers. In six weeks the people who started dancing at my venue, having not danced before, have found it much easier to grasp the aspect of lead and follow.
A semi circle with the hand does not encourage a follower to step back (unless they already know its a signal) a gently push does, even a novice can do it:nice:.

Before I go into teaching a routine I always go over tension and compression, and include it as I teach the moves.

(former ceroc teacher:flower:):worthy:

Fabulous. Have some rep.

Where is this oasis of calm in the whirlpool of semi-circles?

Andy McGregor
27th-June-2008, 11:28 AM
Most do, a few don't. As much as I dislike it, I can see the reasoning behind it and don't see it any worse than the other absence of lead/follow that creeps into the beginners class, like "both step in" rather than "lead the lady in". Everything they do is focused towards making things as easy as possible and the first phrasing does that, as does waving a semi circle rather than teaching a really good handhold and how to lead/follow basic steps. Go to the beginners workshop and its the first thing they do. But in my experience any more detail than what is generally presented in the beginners class frustrates and bores the majority even if its for their own good.Very well analysed post :respect:

I think striking the balance between giving detail and frustrating or boring your students is difficult. I sometimes think of a lot of the teaching as almost "tricking" them into doing it right rather than telling them how. For example, talking about footwork takes ages and confuses most people. But a few comments, once in a while, about which foot your weight should be on when it really matters seems to help people find the correct foot most of the time.

Magic Hans
27th-June-2008, 12:21 PM
Perhaps they feel the need to teach lead/follow that actually means something; not just spurious arm movements that disrupt the connection between the dancers because it's part of "the one true way" :whistle:


Is this why CTA qualifications don't seem to mean much outside of Ceroc (semi)circles?

Semi-circle teaches lead/follow?? Not in my book it doesn't ... not in any half meaningful way at any rate. I wonder how many follows are already on their way back before the semi-circle is completed ... or started for that matter!

straycat
27th-June-2008, 12:34 PM
Semi-circle teaches lead/follow?? Not in my book it doesn't ... not in any half meaningful way at any rate. I wonder how many follows are already on their way back before the semi-circle is completed ... or started for that matter!

Unless I completely misunderstood him, I think that was more-or-less the point Stokie was making?

Magic Hans
27th-June-2008, 12:51 PM
Unless I completely misunderstood him, I think that was more-or-less the point Stokie was making?

Oops!!! My misunderstanding then!! ... sometimes difficult to discern irony or sarcasm from textual communication ... unless the author is known by the responder

tomthumb
29th-June-2008, 08:59 AM
:worthy:

Fabulous. Have some rep.

Where is this oasis of calm in the whirlpool of semi-circles?


Morpeth, Northumberland. It's going really well, numbers are steadily increasing and I'm running my first Beginners workshop today (which has sold out).
As far as I'm aware there are no other dance nights in this area, the closest is Newcastle, Tyne and Wear.

Dreadful Scathe
29th-June-2008, 06:33 PM
it was simply a poor attempt to draw attention to the ridiculous nature of 2 grown men throwing insults at each other about something so trivial, of course i am assuming you are grown men and not 12.

But it isn't trivial - this is a dance forum and its a valid dance question. Does the use of an arbitrary semi circle spoil tension and compression for beginners when its one of the fundamental lessons they should be learning - or does the semi circle clearly mark the beginning of a set of moves to help beginners learn more quickly ?

Andy McGregor
29th-June-2008, 06:55 PM
But it isn't trivial - this is a dance forum and its a valid dance question. Does the use of an arbitrary semi circle spoil tension and compression for beginners when its one of the fundamental lessons they should be learning - or does the semi circle clearly mark the beginning of a set of moves to help beginners learn more quickly ?As sensible post from a Smurf. Evolution in action! Darwin would be proud :wink:

Martin
30th-June-2008, 09:52 AM
Okie. Personal standpoint on this. I hate the semi-circle. I hate teaching it when I teach for Ceroc. I do it because I must. I have asked Franck to remove it.

When I teach it, I teach the men to do it, and on the down part of the motion to establish connection, and then lead their partner back.

Some editing here... <snip>

One thing I respect is that, The Tramp has been asked to do the semi-circle, so he has worked with it and also he has an awareness to bring people a back to a "connection" at the end of it.

That is the sign of a pro teacher working in the confines of what he is asked to do. :respect:

When you teach for a business owner of course you need to adapt.

If you are the business owner, then you can do what you like.

My personal thoughts are, the semi - circle might not exist in a few years time.

Andy McGregor
30th-June-2008, 10:41 AM
My personal thoughts are, the semi - circle might not exist in a few years time.Now that there's been talk of extinction I'm pretty sure some do-gooder will set up a charity to protect the semi-circle.

If our current government get involved they'll make sure the semi-circle is available to minority groups and illegal immigrants awaiting deportation :wink:

Andy McGregor
30th-June-2008, 10:51 AM
One thing I respect is that, The Tramp has been asked to do the semi-circle, so he has worked with it and also he has an awareness to bring people a back to a "connection" at the end of it.I think that Steve (the Tramp) does a great job of giving his customer what he wants rather than what he thinks the customer needs.

I don't like to tell Ceroc what they should be doing (I'm concerned that they will take my advice and be a stronger competitor :whistle: ). However, I think a natural evolution from the semi-circle would be to raise and lower the hand: you'd apply compression into the hand as you lower it. But first off, for complete beginners, this raise and lower the hand could be the "signal" to replace the semi-circle - it makes more sense than the semi-circle. This would replicate the action of lowering your hand stepping your partner back by appling compression after a turn or return. The result of this would be that you still apply compression into your partners hand to get them to step back and the bonus would be that you get used to leading the back step after a turn rather than leading an over-turn.

For myself, I considered teaching the raise and lower of the hand simply because that's what I observed some of the better teachers doing. However, before copying others I thought I'd try the simple "nudge the lady back" and that seemed to work. It's still working.

Dreadful Scathe
30th-June-2008, 11:05 AM
raise and lower the hand ? nah - i suggest a hip-hop start where a wave of the leaders right hand undulates across the arm, shoulders and into the left hand holding the followers right which applies a slight forward pressure to move the follower back.

much more cool. :)

Martin
30th-June-2008, 11:06 AM
I think that Steve (the Tramp) does a great job of giving his customer what he wants rather than what he thinks the customer needs.

Hmmm, so are you saying he is crap?

Coz it sort of reads that way, could or could not be, what you mean.




I thought I'd try the simple "nudge the lady back" and that seemed to work. It's still working.


Which is the same here.. at all venues I have been to in the last 2 years.

Andy McGregor
30th-June-2008, 12:31 PM
Hmmm, so are you saying he is crap?

Coz it sort of reads that way, could or could not be, what you mean.NO! That's what you said. I was praising Steve's customer service.

dep
30th-June-2008, 12:46 PM
........ giving his customer what he wants rather than what he thinks the customer needs.there's the ambiguity.
The first "he" could be Steve or the customer.
The second "he" is clearly referring to Steve.

ducasi
30th-June-2008, 12:47 PM
... However, I think a natural evolution from the semi-circle would be to raise and lower the hand: you'd apply compression into the hand as you lower it. But first off, for complete beginners, this raise and lower the hand could be the "signal" to replace the semi-circle - it makes more sense than the semi-circle. ...
You think they should replace the semicircle with a bounce? :confused:

Andy McGregor
30th-June-2008, 12:51 PM
there's the ambiguity.
The first "he" could be Steve or the customer.
The second "he" is clearly referring to Steve.Probably right. But, I think my meaning was clear.

For the semantics department, here's the new sentence;


I think that Steve (the Tramp) does a great job of delivering what his customer wants rather than what Steve thinks the customer needs.Better?

Andy McGregor
30th-June-2008, 12:53 PM
You think they should replace the semicircle with a bounce? :confused:Better than a semi-circle. But, as I said, a nudge is best. Even better with a wink :wink:

Dreadful Scathe
30th-June-2008, 01:06 PM
I think that Steve (the Tramp) does a great job of giving his customer what he wants rather than what he thinks the customer needs.

Hmm, it sounds as though you mean Steve gives the opinion of the customer some value - the customer is an amateur and not going to know what he wants. Surely as a professional what Steve thinks the customer needs is paramount - and based on his many years experience in teaching and competing ? If you went by what the customer wants you'd have no footwork, "modern" music and a stupid semi-circle to start.

oh.

I thought Martins comment was based on this and not some pedantic grammatical mishap :)

Seriously, there is always an element of both - what the customer wants/expects and what you KNOW the customer needs.

Gadget
30th-June-2008, 01:07 PM
However, I think a natural evolution from the semi-circle would be to raise and lower the hand: you'd apply compression into the hand as you lower it. But first off, for complete beginners, this raise and lower the hand could be the "signal" to replace the semi-circle - it makes more sense than the semi-circle. This would replicate the action of lowering your hand stepping your partner back by applying compression after a turn or return. The result of this would be that you still apply compression into your partners hand to get them to step back and the bonus would be that you get used to leading the back step after a turn rather than leading an over-turn.Very good idea ... if you were starting from a stationary position. But then combine it with the side-to side counting to start with and you end up with a semi-circle. :rolleyes: And I think it may also encourage bouncy hands.

Perhaps instead of doing a "C" side to side, the "C" should be front to back?
... hmmmm.... I might actually try that - establish a connection and preperation on the 'pull in' bit but it's while raising the hand, so less likely to have the follower step in... the more I think on it, the better I like it. Need to see what it's like in practice.

ducasi
30th-June-2008, 01:08 PM
Is Steve's customer the person who has contracted him to teach, or the person to whom he is teaching?

Andy McGregor
30th-June-2008, 01:18 PM
Is Steve's customer the person who has contracted him to teach, or the person to whom he is teaching?Steve's customer is the person who pays him. And he's always right!

Martin
30th-June-2008, 01:22 PM
Probably right. But, I think my meaning was clear.


:rofl::rofl: well it was not clear to begin with...

Must be your fat fingers hitting the wong kees




Better?

Yes much better now

Having seen Steve (The Tramp) teach in various locations, he has to adapt to the "local requirements" and also try to put his own stamp on it.

Something I think he has done rather well "down under" - I have a lot of respect for what he has done here...

Andy McGregor
30th-June-2008, 01:22 PM
Very good idea ... if you were starting from a stationary position. But then combine it with the side-to side counting to start with and you end up with a semi-circle. :rolleyes: And I think it may also encourage bouncy hands.It depends how you lead the side-to-side. If you do it by moving your hand from side-to-side and leading a pivot/over-turn you will end up with a semi-cicle. If you lead the side-to-side by isolating your top half and just moving your feet you will not get a semi-circle.

But, as I said, this is all academic to me as I don't teach a raise and lower to lead a back step.

Andy McGregor
30th-June-2008, 01:23 PM
Something I think he has done rather well "down under"I've seen Steve "down under" :sick:

Martin
30th-June-2008, 01:29 PM
I've seen Steve "down under" :sick:

:blush::blush::blush:

fortunately I have not, in the way you might be pertaining to.

What I do know, is that he has added a lot of flavour to us "down under"

Martin
30th-June-2008, 01:36 PM
Is Steve's customer the person who has contracted him to teach, or the person to whom he is teaching?

Good point, and I guess the best person to respond would be Steve.

From what I have observed, there is an employer, and there are "customers".

There is a need to somewhat please the employer... but at the same time focus on the end "customer".


Within the confines of the employer - I have observed a very strong "customer" focus.

NZ Monkey
1st-July-2008, 11:36 PM
There is a need to somewhat please the employer... but at the same time focus on the end "customer".
Which is something I've seen Steve agonize over. Of course, it could have just been a bad curry instead :wink:

Seriously though, I imagine that can be quite a difficult balance to work out. Doubly so if you're teaching somewhere you're unfamiliar with.