PDA

View Full Version : WCS: Apache whip...



TA Guy
19th-June-2008, 02:02 PM
The RL left handhold variation where the follower ends up in full half nelson on beat four.

Lead by something horribly similar to a MJ sway (in order to get the half nelson). Result = many followers (many of whom, of course, have centuries of MJ conditioning :)) end up with hand jammed on right hip aka MJ sway rather than a true half nelson. Any attempt to ease the arm into a half nelson results in some kind of backwards rotating sway. Move ends up all jungly :)



Any WCS dancers got any tips here ? I like the move/pattern and don't wanna dump it if I can fix my lead (or whatever).

straycat
19th-June-2008, 02:10 PM
And here was me thinking it was some new web technology when I saw the thread title....

I was geekishly excited for a moment :whistle:

Caro
19th-June-2008, 02:28 PM
The RL left handhold variation where the follower ends up in full half nelson on beat four.

Lead by something horribly similar to a MJ sway (in order to get the half nelson)

aren't sways led from RR handhold ?

by horribly similar, do you mean you lead that by the (follower's) wrist ?


Result = many followers (many of whom, of course, have centuries of MJ conditioning :)) end up with hand jammed on right hip aka MJ sway rather than a true half nelson. Any attempt to ease the arm into a half nelson results in some kind of backwards rotating sway. Move ends up all jungly :)


hmm if the followers resist the half nelson and put their own hands on their hip, not much you can do...
may be try not to lead by the wrist (if that's what you do) as this can be led by a normal 'handshake' handhold, hence the followers with MJ backgound might not 'recognise' it as a sway and not preempt where their right hand should go ?

David Franklin
19th-June-2008, 02:37 PM
Meh - although I don't do WCS, I do essentially this move as a MJ variation, and what you say is ringing a bell. Problem is, I don't generally have any trouble leading it now, so I'm not entirely sure what to suggest. Couple of thoughts that might be worth a try:

When I have trouble with this, I think it's often because I start doing the half-nelson too early. Looking at a YouTube clip (YouTube - West Coast Swing Apache Whip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSLttdtKOHs)) at it being done in WCS, I'd say it happens "quite late" in the 4 count.

You can often "force" a half-nelson by applying a twisting motion during the lead (I think bringing the hand almost straight down can help as well). Of course, you need to be cautious: you're not making a citizen's arrest.

Caro
19th-June-2008, 02:49 PM
Looking at a YouTube clip (YouTube - West Coast Swing Apache Whip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSLttdtKOHs))

thanks for the clip DF, I had another move in mind all together.

I'd say that first of all, you can't lead that move if your follower's arm is too tense (unless you're into wrestling). But if her arm is relaxed enough, given that you are transfering (well, throwing) her hand into yours behind her back, if yours is placed correctly then it shouldn't be an issue ? :confused:

What is the issue you're facing exactly:
- you transfer her right hand into your right and she then take the handhold to her right hip
- you can't manage to let her go off your left hand, i.e. never reach your right hand because she stops at her right hip ?

Chef
19th-June-2008, 02:50 PM
I am not sure if this is STRICTLY westie but so far it works with most people.

When you get to beat 4 have the followers right hand about waist height and out to their right.

On beat 5 as you lead the rotation of the followers body with your right hand on the followers shoulder blade you throw the followers right hand down and BEHIND them. As your right hand has done with leading the followers direction and rotation it can move down and collect the followers hand. This can go wrong if you throw (not very hard) the followers hand AT their hip (when it ends up hitting their hip and staying there) rather than BEHIND them. As long as you lead the direction and rotation of the move on 5 with your right hand the rest of it will usually go smoothly.

This means that the move is very fault tolerant (on the followers part). If the followers arm is stiff and she resists the hand going behind her back then it won't matter because you have got her going down the slot and body rotating from your lead with your right hand on her shoulder blade and all you have to do is keep your right hand at her hip level and her hand will show up eventually no matter what. If her hand is nice and relaxed it just drops gently into your right hand between beat 5 and 6.

Being taller than most of my partners I also find it avoids me having to crouch in order to physically pass my partners hand from my left hand to my right at the point where it near the small of her back.

robd
19th-June-2008, 02:57 PM
I always thought an apache whip was a bit like a normal whip to 4 then the equivalent of a MJ backhander between 4 and 8 (and the clip posted by DF backs this up)

There is a common whip where you would start R to R and the follower would be half nelson on 4 - don't know what it's called but I can and do lead a variant of it when dancing MJ

I'd say take the ladies hand low to lead the half nelson then place it in the small of the back. If her hand is kept at the same height throughout there is more likelihood of her thinking it's a sway.

TA Guy
19th-June-2008, 03:22 PM
I'm an idiot :)

All thru writing that post I was saying to myself, 'remember to note that it's not the LR version' as seen in that Youtube clip :)
Why I've put RL I have no idea, brain must have gone all jungly :)

I mean the RR variation Apache whip, which, funnily enough, is the same RR as an MJ sway as Caro noted. Hence, presumably the move confusion.




I'd say take the ladies hand low to lead the half nelson then place it in the small of the back. If her hand is kept at the same height throughout there is more likelihood of her thinking it's a sway.

Changing the height is worth trying. I always turn the hand, and pull very slightly downwards for an MJ sway. Maybe keeping everything at small of the back level might help...

mikeyr
19th-June-2008, 03:33 PM
I always thought an apache whip was a bit like a normal whip to 4 then the equivalent of a MJ backhander between 4 and 8 (and the clip posted by DF backs this up)

I'd say take the ladies hand low to lead the half nelson then place it in the small of the back. If her hand is kept at the same height throughout there is more likelihood of her thinking it's a sway.

Its not a whip so its not whip footwork which is a coaster step on 3&4 this is a lead rotation (triple on 3&4) It can be lead from either side of the slot in WCS.

My particular favourite out of this is the unwind rewind ala J&T Boston teaparty et al.

Anyway back to leading a nelson: this is in WCS. From the left side beat 1 lead forward down the slot Beat2 continue slot direction but take the followers hand toward the floor Beat 2& take the hand out to the right with a loose anti clockwise twisting of the connection, this will a rotation of the on Beats 3&4 as the rotation starts bring the lead hand gently up allowing the followers forearm to rest naturally across her lower back. By 4 the leader will be either at a right angle fancing into the slot or fully in the slot facing the follower.

From the right side of the slot it is a prepped turn (similar to a single double)taking the hand straight down on Beat 2& again, Beat 3& as the rotation finishes bring the lead hand gently up allowing the followers forearm to rest naturally across her lower back. By 4 the leader will be at a right angle fancing into the slot from the left.

From beat 5 its up to the leader to lead the rest, theres loads of variations to end it.

robd
19th-June-2008, 03:35 PM
Changing the height is worth trying. I always turn the hand, and pull very slightly downwards for an MJ sway. Maybe keeping everything at small of the back level might help...

I would say bring the follows arm down so that it is straight or as near as dammit whilst rotating the hand within yours then bring it up to rest within the small of the back once the follow has turned through 180 degrees rather than keep it at small of the back level throughout the move.

David Franklin
19th-June-2008, 03:47 PM
Its not a whip so its not whip footwork which is a coaster step on 3&4 this is a lead rotation (triple on 3&4) It can be lead from either side of the slot in WCS.Just to clarify, in the move you're talking about, does the follow have a change of direction (as in a whip), or does she just go from one end of the slot to the other (with a twist into half-nelson and out again)?

mikeyr
19th-June-2008, 03:49 PM
I'm an idiot :)

I mean the RR variation Apache whip, which, funnily enough, is the same RR as an MJ sway as Caro noted. Hence, presumably the move confusion...

Its not!! An Apache whip whether entered from normal whip or reverse whip does not have the follower in a nelson anywhere, it the leader changing from L/R handhold to a R/R handhold behind the followers back on Beat 5& when the rotaion is already initiated.

In MJ it might not matter but in WCS its the difference between leading a coaster step and a standard triple rotation, a coaster leads direction, a standard triple does not. Theyll be a lot WCS followers that will curse if you mix em up.

David Franklin
19th-June-2008, 03:58 PM
Its not!! An Apache whip whether entered from normal whip or reverse whip does not have the follower in a nelson anywhere, it the leader changing from L/R handhold to a R/R handholdBut during the changeover, the follower is a nelson, surely? See this frame from the YouTube clip previously linked:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6082/apachenelsonln8.jpg

mikeyr
19th-June-2008, 04:05 PM
Just to clarify, in the move you're talking about, does the follow have a change of direction (as in a whip), or does she just go from one end of the slot to the other (with a twist into half-nelson and out again)?

Theres a number of common variations of this move most which will end up even after throwing in alternating triples to extend it n beats at the opposite end. Be careful here, there loads of 6 beat WCS patterns that end up back at the same end the follower starts from. i.e. a cut off, dewey starter step and cross body leads.

Whip type moves are initiated on 1& for 2 with the coaster which is really led bringin the followers weight commited forward on 4 ready to step for an 8 beat pattern.

for reverse whip initiated on 2 for 2& because its turn to the left. then as per whip.


Its leading the coaster that is the key.

mikeyr
19th-June-2008, 04:11 PM
But during the changeover, the follower is a nelson, surely? See this frame from the YouTube clip previously linked:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6082/apachenelsonln8.jpg

Cant view youtube from work but if its a normal Apache its leaders hand change. The followers arm will be stright. A nelson is where one arm bends at elbow with the forearm across the lower back. Also the lead out of the nelson should be from that low hip position.

mikeyr
19th-June-2008, 04:16 PM
If youre around Kent way tonight, pop into Petts wood, Its easier for me to show you, I use a number of Apache varitions, including a unwind rewind which is the only time I would use a nelson from that pattern.

David Franklin
19th-June-2008, 04:27 PM
Nevermind...

clevedonboy
19th-June-2008, 07:16 PM
Returning to the original Q

My experience (i.e. thing I've done and still do wrong) leads me to think it's 2 things potentially. Not getting out of the slot and initiating the turn too soon.

I've just worked it through with Julia from scratch and it only works if I get right out of the way and start the turn only when we're just about side by side.

It's certainly a move with potential for arm twangs though!

TA Guy
19th-June-2008, 07:48 PM
Returning to the original Q

My experience (i.e. thing I've done and still do wrong) leads me to think it's 2 things potentially. Not getting out of the slot and initiating the turn too soon.

I've just worked it through with Julia from scratch and it only works if I get right out of the way and start the turn only when we're just about side by side.

It's certainly a move with potential for arm twangs though!

That's a poss. Not the 'not getting out of the slot' thing, but I do initiate the turn quite early. I'll try it later :)

Which beat you reckon is best to start initiation ?

clevedonboy
19th-June-2008, 08:45 PM
prolly somewhere between & 4 but I think that it's something that is a bit personal - I think the real clincher is getting your follower moving down the slot with a bit of momentum before starting the turn - that way you won't be nywhere near the "sway" position by the time the turn starts so that bit of their dance brain can't take over.

I have to say i think it's a tricky lead and one i would have to practice a lot before I would confidently use.

Good luck - I'll be interested to ear if you get any feedback :)

NZ Monkey
19th-June-2008, 09:15 PM
The RL left handhold variation where the follower ends up in full half nelson on beat four.

Lead by something horribly similar to a MJ sway (in order to get the half nelson). Result = many followers (many of whom, of course, have centuries of MJ conditioning :)) end up with hand jammed on right hip aka MJ sway rather than a true half nelson. Any attempt to ease the arm into a half nelson results in some kind of backwards rotating sway. Move ends up all jungly :)



Any WCS dancers got any tips here ? I like the move/pattern and don't wanna dump it if I can fix my lead (or whatever).I think I know the pattern you're talking about here, and unless I miss my guess it isn't the standard apache whip the rest of the posters seem to be talking about.

Correct me if I'm wrong TA guy, but the version you're refering to keeps the RH/RH handhold through the whole pattern right?

The last workshop I did with J&T was on fold variations, and it was the night after MJ freestyle party they all attended. Jordan picked exactly the habit you're talking about out as an illustration of what not to do because he had found it so common in the freestyle the night before!

Essentially, it's the followers issue. Unless you're deliberately putting her hand to her hip (which you aren't) then she's "trying to help you" by "not following". It's much easier and looks and feels much nicer if she just relaxes her arm completely during the half nelson.

That said, you don't want to twist her arm to get it there under any circumstances. Even as someone who is into wrestling I can tell you that it's just uncomfortable which isn't a good thing in dancing. In fact if your follower reacts badly it can be dangerous. And yes Caro, that was a nod in your direction :na: :flower:

You also don't want to actively pull down on her hand. The weight of yours and the prep should be all the force you need and any more can pull her off balance or prevent her from doing something flash and musical. You are right about placing the hand in the small of her back.

The other point I'd like to make with these folding types of moves is that as a leader you always want your body to be ahead or hers so you're leading with your centre when you change her direction*. I know this is true generally speaking anyway but in the half nelson in particular leading with the arm tends to twist the followers arm somewhat even when you're trying not to.


*Note that in the video DavidFranklin posted the direction *change* isn't lead from the half nelson position, so the leader doesn't need her body to be ahead of the followers here.

NZ Monkey
19th-June-2008, 09:50 PM
Too slow to edit:

Another point Jordan made is that you can transition your grip to a loose (and I do mean loose) hold on her wrist during the fold and then let it slide back to the hand during the anchour. It prevents some awkward looking hand positions, but isn't always strictly necessary either :flower:

TA Guy
19th-June-2008, 10:10 PM
I think I know the pattern you're talking about here, and unless I miss my guess it isn't the standard apache whip the rest of the posters seem to be talking about.

Correct me if I'm wrong TA guy, but the version you're refering to keeps the RH/RH handhold through the whole pattern right?


Yes. I confused it with the first post. The RH/RH variation starts with a lead similar to an MJ sway. It's confusing. That RH/RH connection stays at least until beat 6 whereupon there are many ways to exit. It's a normal whip pattern for the lead basically.



The last workshop I did with J&T was on fold variations, and it was the night after MJ freestyle party they all attended. Jordan picked exactly the habit you're talking about out as an illustration of what not to do because he had found it so common in the freestyle the night before!

Essentially, it's the followers issue. Unless you're deliberately putting her hand to her hip (which you aren't) then she's "trying to help you" by "not following". It's much easier and looks and feels much nicer if she just relaxes her arm completely during the half nelson.


Mmm. That's interesting. Must admit, my first thought was it's a follower fault as it happens exactly as you(Jordan) describe, but I wondered if there was something I was doing wrong, you never know :)

I can lead it with some followers, I am just not good enough to analyse what was going wrong when it didn't work except there seemed to be some loose correlation between MJ WCS'ers as it ending up like a backwards rotating sway thingeemabobby :)



That said, you don't want to twist her arm to get it there under any circumstances.

Well ... no. :)


I'm gonna try the height suggestion and the leaving the turn lead until later suggestion tomorrow night. I like the move, don't wanna lose it. We'll see how it goes.